Classy with a bit of a hairpin tweeter.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Written review/data can be found here:
www.erinsaudio...
Amazon: amzn.to/3GKMM2S
This link helps earn me a small commission at no additional cost to you.
Support the cause:
Patreon: / erinsaudiocorner
Contribute via PayPal: www.paypal.com...
Your support helps me pay for new items to test, hardware, miscellaneous items and costs of the site’s server space and bandwidth. All of which I otherwise pay out of pocket. So, if you can help chip in a few bucks, know that it is very much appreciated.
____________________
All of my tests are conducted using KLIPPEL Hardware and Software. KLIPPEL is an innovative leader in providing unique test equipment for electro-acoustical transducers and audio systems. Founded in 1997 by Dr. Wolfgang Klippel, the novel techniques developed for control and measurement systems of loudspeakers and other transducers are the result of over 30 years of fundamental research. This provides more accurate physical models of loudspeakers, micro-speakers and headphones valid for both small and large amplitudes. The focus is on revealing the root causes of signal distortion and defects and giving practical indications for improvements in design and manufacturing of audio products. For information on KLIPPEL products, please visit their site below:
www.klippel.de/...
Ive been saying this over and over again from the very first day I got the R200. Exactly what I felt when I turn up the volume (which it can handle with ease), it starts to get a wee bit sharp, shouty and lean. Not a problem at low to normal listening levels. Playing with toe in is a must, toe out if you listen at higher listening levels, toe in at lower volumes. Im at around 5 - 10 degrees toe in now, with the speakers pointed just slightly into the room, and ears between tweeter and woofer. Best position for me so far.
I swapped amps and it seems like a high current amp cures this issue, but I definitely know what you mean. My outlaw had the problem and doesn't do too well with impedance swings but my anthem is a beast and sounds much smoother overall with tighter bass. These speakers are more sensitive than most, they will show you the shortcomings of your equipment.
@@sturdyvw it also gets shouty with my rotel pre/power combo, its just that in reality, the polks do indeed have an uprising treble, and this translates into what a few have noticed and heard. Still one of the best speakers Ive owned.
I have the r200. Facing straight i notice that the highs appeared pretty washed out. Speakers felt lifeless. Now with the toe in they sound better to my ears. I can feel the treble. With the toe in i can still not say that they sound tiny or harsh.
Great review! Love the "down to atomic level" speaker analysis you always perform. Looking forward for the next one...
I own the R200's, paired to an Audiolabs 6000a. To be frank, I was afraid the tweeters would be too hot. I'm kinda allergic to sharper sounding speakers. B&W 606, for example, isn't my taste. According to ASR they have an impressive flat response (almost Genelec alike, but I'll take that with a grain of salt). In their charts it shows also a bit of a dip and tilt at mids and top-end, like yours.
I don't experience any harshness from the tweeters when playing low, medium or insane. 😄 It feels like a crossing between a silkdome and metaldome, sometimes AMT alike, crisp and with body and decay. However, bad recordings show up as such, they do not mask. I describe them as somewhat lively, transparent, but well balanced, never exaggerating. Positioning of instruments is solid, bass is detailed, deep and punchy. Tonality is on point, quite good actually. You do have to take care in positioning and toe-in, etc.
My listening position is around 4-5 meters (about 16 feet) and I don't experience any (concerning) problems with off-axis response or tonal imbalance. Perhaps because of the distance re. listening position, room acoustics and/or amp.
Hopefully you can get your hands on the R200's one day, that would be interesting.
That's because the brightness zone is around 6 kHz.
OMG, thanks for explaining breakup modes and beaming! It so refreshing to understand what the reviewer is saying.
I think that I would like these.. That tilted top end is what I enjoy .. at least I do appreciate 'air' details. While it's mostly from higher end products.. likely better tweeters in general .. at these prices, that tilt helps bring our Life and details.. ( some of those other measures tho are troubling.. resonances especially.)
Damn.. bikinpunk...
Good review with a unique finding about fatigue. I’m learning this the hard way only after receiving the monster r700s and I cannot escape the fatigue. Likely will return and keep the lintons instead. I so wanted to enjoy the Polks.
Tonality preference is subjective. I am 50 years old so a 3 dB increase is just nice for me. When I audition these pair, I was quite please with its overall tonality. That treble response also gave a bit of details especially for acoustics string instruments.
In addition, above 10khz, there isn't a lot of musical content as well so not much a bother ....
Good review. Fixing the tweeter offset would be pretty simple, changing out one or both of the L Pad resistors could pull the tweeter level down without affecting anthing else
Well, if you pad the tweeter down then the on-axis response drops a lot. The issue really seems to be the apparent directivity mismatch.
Voicing of the tweeter Cap and resistor can do magic in these situations , adding right sounding bypass can also clean up the highs even more ... Voicing needs to be done by good old ear 😉
They look... gorgeous.
Polk definitely has some research capital. It could be the demographic of their target customer base is older and they are compensating for the gradual loss in sensitivity to higher frequencies? I'm guessing they did some subjective feedback testing. The average age of the home audio enthusiast who actually has the money to spend after the last couple years may be a larger audience in older generations
agreed
Hopefully you can review the R700s down the road. It's been getting lots of praise around the community as one of the best pair of speakers under 2000.
On positive note Polk does have a 60 day return policy so you can hear for your self.
Great review. Very informative. Was considering them for surrounds, to match the r700 and r400 but I think I'll just use my br03 that I have instead.
Appreciate the thorough review, though I have to say it’s an outlier when compared to every other review I’ve seen or read (and I believe I’ve read and seen them all). This may be a great example of how a speaker measures compared to how it sounds. Not a single other reviewer has complained of an overly harsh tweeter (that could be because they weren’t pushed to high volumes). It could also be that this speaker sounds best at a low to moderate volume. For myself, it’s not a deal breaker for the following reasons:
-I’m old enough to have lost some high frequency hearing
-the speakers can be positioned to minimize or even eliminate the problem
-EQ could tame any offending high frequencies
-I tend to prefer to listen at between 65-75 Db, which should eliminate any risk of peaking these high frequencies.
All in all, information is a great thing to have, but no speaker is perfect, we just need to decide which features are most important to us and what compromises we’re willing to live with
You’re focusing on the fact that I have measurements and seem to ignore the fact that I heard this.
As for it being universally accepted by audiophiles, that’s not true. There are others who noticed similar issues. Of course, you are free to disagree with me. But citing other reviewers as evidence that my take is wrong doesn’t hold much water with me given how often I find other reviewers to be extremely biased (by one factor or another).
Ultimately, you enjoy the speaker and that’s all that really matters. The data is to be used as a guide and my subjective commentary is nothing more than me relating the data to what I heard.
@@ErinsAudioCorner
please don’t misunderstand, I’m not disputing at all what you measured or heard, I accept it all 100%. But correct me if I’m wrong, the treble issue you referenced is only a problem at loud volumes (over 90 db?)and can be minimized with positioning adjustments or even eliminated with EQ. As for reviewers, I’m not only referring to published reviews on UA-cam or written reviews online, but all owner reviews I could find never mentioned the tweeter being unacceptably sharp or bright. If such reviews exist, please cite them.
@@healthynutster check ASR for discussion on this model speaker.
What would be a recommended crossover frequency if using these with a sub?
I have these and am loving them. Thank you Erin for your data, which combined with Klippel data from the R200 gave me confidence to purchase for in home audition.
I sit about 12 ft away and prefer volume levels mostly in the 60's dbC. I'm only concerned about MLP so have tweaked axis position exactly to taste.
Driving with a lower Denon AVR, crossed over to SVS sub at 80. Mostly rock and blues, with occasional forays into jazz and piano.
In these conditions, after considerable setup time, they are excellent. In particular, I enjoy the mid-bass attack and smooth midrange. Highs are detailed but not overbearing. Imaging and soundstage are exceptional.
My first pair of HiFi store speakers were Polk Monitor 4A circa 1985. Congrats to Polk for making a reasonably priced speaker that brought me full circle back from the NRC brands.
Ah, man, that's the kind of feedback I love to hear. Enjoy your new system!
Btw 6dB/oct is quite ideal if you can pull it off as it reduces electrical phase shift caused by the crossover. This can be audible but I wouldn’t put my money on it.
Not sure if that’s what they’re going for though with this.
Hi Erin, I really like the way you put thinking into the graphics. One question I have is paper sounds like paper, metal like metal. Does it get captured in the resonances and distortions or is it something more difficult to measure. So can the harshess or or other properties of the sound be coming from the materials or their combination. Also how do the measurments capture the cabinet sound, which may be hollow etc. Can it be detected and pinpointed.
You may not be able t hear the higher frequencies, but it is the harmonics that gives an instrument it’s unique sound, even in the frequencies, you can’t hear.
Think about what you just said for a second.
I’m impressed how almost every bookshelf has too much highs. It that difficult to get a decent response ?
Yes, thats why expensive speakers are so good, they are neutral. Cheap speakers fake the curve to make it seem good
Would love to see your detailed review on the similar size 607 s2 from Bowers.
This tweeter looks a lot like the tweeter in the Mission QX series, down to the 'phase plug' in the middle. The Mission QX tweeter had somewhat recessed highs (at least to my ears) though. Interesting that this is tuned differently.
Wow that measurement rig is like the ultimate flex.
gotta love the data
Nice review… waiting for your Arendal review 🙌
Hey Erin do you really think the design of the speaker literally means there is a loudness curve baked in?
It’s very strange hearing you bring these things up since these stuff are sorted in the mix and every song typically have a loudness sweetspot at which it should be played.
I’ve got a pair of Ryan R 610 speakers that are supposed to very low distortion at high levels, I would love to see those measured
Can a serial resistor in the tweeter crossover fix that?
6k will prob still beam, even on that small woofer. usually thats a nasty. try shorting the woofers terminals w a 10 uf cap. (are they wired oop?) I assume the woofer isnt running full range?
I'd love to see him get some Mini lores in there
My older Polk LSIM speakers I find have a guttural sound in the 706C center channel as volume goes up with certain voices sounding harsh. Wonder if this is what you are talking about and is also in the Polk LSIM line. Ive been trying to defeat this harshness but may have to replace the 706 with another center channel which will probably mess up tonal balance with all the other LSIM speakers in my room. I only hear this issue with center channel.Will try raising crossover.
Hello Erin, I am extremely well impressed with your reviews, particularly after seeing the video of the Klippel testing equipment. Congratulations and thanks. That said, I’d like to offer some comments in the most respectful and constructive way possible. As a “watcher” of your videos…just present your findings both measured and subjective, conclusions, etc and there is no need to read or mention any other reviewers comments. Keep up your great work.
Wow, seriously?? Don't read or respond to any other suggestions, opinions, or questions?
I personally find all of the feedback from other reviewers a wonderful resource. If you scan through and find most people are saying the same thing, it gives some more credibility to the findings, especially with something that is subjective like the sound of speakers. I do agree with you on one thing, Erin does a fabulous job with these reviews! It's an excellent place to start.
Hi Erin, do you know if the Legend L100 has the same tweeter harshness off axis, or if it is likely to since the drivers are the same?
I have the L100's and there's no harshness. They are not fatiguing at all
I bought them and use them as surrounds so I dont think the harshness would even really affect me.@joecharpentier6636
Add a simple L-pad like Polk should've done in the 1st place. WTF Happened to L-pads anyway!? LoL
Where is the money come from for klippel, 100k$ it's a lot of money . I respect your interest on speaker, wonder why manufacture don't have such instruments!!. That resonance that you show maybe it come from window in your room or bad placement of speaker , just wondering if klippel has loopback measurement for calibration before your measurement on speaker. Your channel is great by the way.
The measurements are anechoic and therefore the room has no influence on the data you see.
For more info, check this out:
ua-cam.com/video/-s-R1HCYUYs/v-deo.html
I was considering these but after all this seems like they have a few flaws that I would rather not bother with
Given the response of those drivers, this speaker looks like it would benefit from a x-over redesign.
That 800 Hz resonance is likely due to to the box and vent dimensions, and it should be possible to model the effect with a software tool like Hornresp. It's also possible to use Hornresp to come up with ideal locations for the vent and driver and ideal dimensions for the box and the vent to minimize the impact of those resonances. Hmm, I wonder if that center "plug" in the vent could somehow be modded to be an 800 Hz 1/4 wave resonator... :-).
HaH! Nice Contra reference. 😁
I purchased r100 for surround speakers. Is it possible to wallmount? Will it sound good if wallmounted using brackets ?
While I'm totally onboard with the harman speaker target of -3dB/decade, I'm sure can actually vary depending on the fletcher munson curve. Though, what is harman's reference level? 86dB? I can't recall.
The tests are based on playback levels of 80dB…
heyy sorry to bother you, I really stuck between Evo 4.2 and R200, which is better in terms of sound quality alone? thankss
Hi there the King 👑 of the sweet spot: measurements vs subjective audition. Would you say the r200 gets rid of that harshness at higher volume? Thx a lot ☺️
Howdy. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with the R200 so I can't say for sure.
Opinion on the Martin Logan 35xti & 60xti?
The dip between 1500 and 3k hz - isn’t that what they call a “bbc “ dip? Audyssey calibration puts it in too and calls it “midrange compensation” first thing i do after running cal is to turn that shit off.
I don't think so. I say that because it's not in the on-axis response and only becomes more apparent the further off-axis you go.
Thanks and you are right on! Listening to them now, really wanting to like them, but that little splatter at a certain vocal level kills it for me. I must send them back as this is an unacceptable flaw. These speakers have good qualities but are somewhat restrained.
What are you getting to replace these in this price point?
I wonder if the Legend100 fixes some of the issues stated here.
The Legend series measures a little worse overall.
Taj 😍
will you also test r700
Audioholics did the big towers and I skimmed, but it sounds like the three-way does better.
It looks like it does based on what I saw.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Erin, what did you see in Audioholic's data that made you feel it would be better on the R700?
1 R1 with a sub
2 R600
What is the best option?
Better to audition them and rely on your own ears. At the end of the day, only one opinion matters...YOURS.
It a 86 db speaker not 85 db.
85.4dB @ 2.83v/1m.
you reviewer folks need to spend more time talking about use case considerations and the fact that the stuff like algorithms provided by AV receivers like dirac can correct some of these issues. for example, it's noto just an overall negative about volume here....just changes the use scenario. 4 of these, the r300 center, the 10" res4erve sub, and two r900 height modules and you have a competent small room system that can thrill you without making the neighbors want to lynch you. They are more than good in that volume range.
Man, damn good work. Umm... yea it's a small room speaker. Yes we get the ..Nintendo reference.
Two questions, forgive my ignorance. 1) what amp is used to drive them when being measured, does the klippel have its own power unit? 2) what is the equipment used during your listening tests?
1) Here are the specs for the Klippel NFS.
www.klippel.de/products/rd-system/modules/nfs-near-field-scanner.html
2) Parasound HINT-6. Sometimes an AVR, too. AppleTV, OPPO BDP-103, computer… I test in two different rooms. Living room and HT. Also nearfield sometimes in my office. Just try to get a rounded review for various user types.
I just started breaking in my R200 and so far I had exact the same impression as yours. Excellent sounding at low to medium level. But once you cross over to medium to high level, they start to sound edgy. I am driving them with a 250w high current AB amp. I am hoping the break-in process will tame them somewhat. Will it happen?
The ones I reviewed are used and presumably well broken in. And I still put them through a lot of time before I tested them. So I wouldn’t expect anything to change other than maybe you “getting used to” the sound.
I see your post is over 5 months old but did the edgy sound ever change for you? I got a pair of R200's a couple months ago and I still have them set up in my TV/music room. I rarely ever listen over 75 db. To me the best sound is definitely between the speakers and I only noticed the speakers being a little shouty with a high powered class AB amp. With a Hypex Class D, even at loud volumes I don't hear what Erin is describing, if anything I think it's lacking in the high frequency, bass can be a little much with the R200..even crossed over at 60hz. Anyway was just curious as to what you thought, and if you kept them? A 3db rise in treble is quite a bit and noticeable, I'm sensitive to high frequency and hate it...I'm also 50 so I'm not sure how high I'm even hearing these days
Good thing they don't measure as badly as Dynaudio. I mean what idiot would buy a bad measuring set of speakers for over 5 grand?
👀 konami code
Have you ever measured a perfect speaker
ua-cam.com/video/A_IEtfNakr4/v-deo.html
Konami code, sweet.
You erroneously think HI REZ means there is a benefit only at dog frequencies.
Prove me wrong. Show me research and metrics that prove it from blind testing.
I cant hear above 12.5K and Im only 35... :( people over 18 unless they take care of their ears (hearing plugs) cant hear above 17K
@@p_mouse8676 haha the amount of SPL you would have to put out to make those frequencies relevant would probably cause a serious amount of distortion. I also just blew a tweeter to see how loud I would have to go to hear 16Khz lol
CONTRA!
Might be your equipment
CONTRA NES CODE
Don't agree with you one bit measurements aren't what you hear lol
ua-cam.com/video/TcTydBUd8Wc/v-deo.html