Why Do I NEED God? (feat
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- Опубліковано 26 бер 2024
- Do I really need God? @imbeggar never used to think so. Dara ( @TheMagicSkeptic ) and Paulogia consider his proposal, an opportunity, a very gentle invitation.
• Why I need God: A gent...
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It was an incredible honour to be featured in this video. Paulogia is a huge inspiration of mine and I sincerely appreciate him taking a chance on me. Thank you Paul ❤️
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It was a pleasure watching the seamless meshing of your intellects as you each effortlessly noticed the inconsistencies as well as outright fallacies of this apologist! I am going to enjoy the end of the video and begin work on my Barnum statements.
Great to see you two working together!
Paul is surely likewise honored! It’s neat seeing you here. I continue to love the way you put things, and no atheist makes me laugh as hard as you, especially when you are “appalled” at Christianity!
This was hilarious and excellent.
"The physical body hungers for the physical" (lists physical hungers). "The spirit hungers for the spiritual" (lists *_social_* hungers).
Was absolutely hilarious
This is a big part of why I'm skeptical when people say something like, "Some people just need religion."
Invariably what they are getting from the religion is prosocial feelings. Nobody needs religion or a belief in the supernatural so much as they need a community.
A lot of spiritual stuff is really just emotional stuff
@@rainbowkrampusYes, everyone needs a community because we're a social species. Even those of us who are generally happier alone, like myself, still need a network of people who give a deeper meaning to the life we live. When I lost my wife, father, and daughter over a 15 month period of time, it left me with a huge empty hole inside. It's been three years now since I lost Karen, my wife, but I have found an incredible group of people who gave me the help and support I needed to work through the early stages of my pain and grief. That's a process which is ongoing, and will probably continue for the rest of my life.
My apologies for taking this short comment about a basic part of what makes us human, and using it as an excuse to tell a part of my life story and what I've learned from it. Thanks, peace 💚
@@DaveB-hg7elNo problem. You didn't hurt anyone, and sometimes you just need to say what's on your mind, if only to internet strangers. I hope you have a good day.
“Any pleasure done in repetition leads to boredom.”
So… heaven is boring?
I had my first mini existential crisis worrying about that when I was like 8. Tried to talk to my Mom about it, asking a lot of a mom to deal with that! 🤣
Yeah. Was one of the mains things that made me see through the bs. Aint no way a eternity in heaven would be anything short of hell to me.
Very
Not if it goes on, and on and on, and on, and on, ... (ahem)
@@kyleeprattmentioned 5o my sister in law that if the streeta are paved in gold, gold becoms worthless, she didb't get it, part of my epiphany.
Whenever someone says "rise of the nuns" i picture a wave of Sister Margarets wreaking havoc.
*_Sister Act intensifies_*
didn't the python team do a skit on this?
I want Paul to animate THAT!!!!
Like in the "fish" women, who supported the churches for man years.
The "fish women" brought a lot of money into the temple treasury. Nun = fish aka dag.
"What people want more than anything is to be accepted."
Ah, yes, and the church is well known as the most accepting gig in town.
Exactly this!!!
They will happily exploit your need to be accepted
also, water, food, shelter first please. The only people who actually think people want acceptance most of all are those who not only have never lacked anything, but actively ignore those who do even exist....
you just have to be the "right" kind of person to be accepted... it's not that hard, just deny who you are... and we are all good!
@@adam346Only that? What kind of Christianity are you talking about? Basically all sects need way more than that from you.
"I think you know I'm right, deep down inside," is such manipulative BS. That was the only type of argument I told my parents I wouldn't entertain about my atheism. They couldn't come up with anything else and stopped mentioning it at all 😂
"I think you know I'm right, deep down inside."
Well, I think you're wrong. And last time I checked, only one of us had direct access to my thoughts and feelings.
"Search your feelings, you know it to be true"
though tbf to Darth Vader, he was correct and the magic in his galaxy is demonstrably real.
I would say that they know "deep inside" that I'm right. Because if I told them that jesus physically showed up at my house the other night and talked with me over dinner about spirituality, they would know "deep down" that it was BS
"I think you know I'm right, deep down inside" sound like a good opportunity to say "I think that, deep down, you know you wrong about that" ;)
It's always infuriating when people undermine whatever you are saying by pretending what you are saying is so absurd that deep down you can't actually believe it. As if they know better than you what you know and feel.
@@RuchunteurExactly. They can't argue the point, so they resort in denying your agency by pretending to be a mind reader so they can impose on you what they want to be true.
"God is like an air conditioner".
That's we're so irreligious in the Nordic countries.
Spirituality.. For something so frequently described as "beyond what we can see or touch, beyond our human understanding", there is certainly no shortage of people ready and waiting to tell us everything we need know about it.
If it's beyond their understanding, why do they even believe it?😂
🔥
Magic Skeptic finally get's his Paulogia character, that's a big milestone
I'm honoured ❤
I actually had the opposite reaction when I left religion. It allowed me to not feel bad about resting, wasting time, or being lazy. I enjoy all of those things, and now I am not going to hell because I am playing video games. I have no urgency that I want it is a huge relief.
8 yrs out, still aspiring to that relief
Although I was pretty miserable almost the whole time I was a fundie Catholic when my faith finally fell apart I felt a huge void and fell into a deep depression to the point I felt I had nothing left to live for since I had dedicated so much time and energy to the Church. Walking away was the easiest part but trying to fully reintegrate into society was much harder and I’m still working on that more than four years later.
I’m lucky enough that I was able to find therapy and medication that worked more recently so although I can’t confidently say I’m happy I can say that I’m much more at peace now than ever before, I don’t miss anything at all anymore from my old religion save some of the aesthetics which I can replicate anyways.
yeah i don't really get why people want 'meaning'. when i was a chrstian, i believed my life was a means to an end, which is what people mean whrn they talk about life having meaning, and it didn't give me peace or joy. it just made me feel like a miserable failure.
i'm still a failure, of course. and i still face the social consequences of that - i'll never matter to anyone. but i no longer hate myself for it, at least not always, and i'm not constantly freaking out about how i'm going to go to hell for it.
the flip side is that eternal life doesn't seem inherently bad to me, since life is to some degree an end in itself.
Whatever circumstances surrounding the misery you identify to be synonymous with you and life lead you to conclude, @@joshridinger3407, this cause-and-effect chain-reaction also led me here to let you know that your words mattered and meant something to me.
Just for that successfully short and bittersweet provocation of thought, I hold *eternal* gratitude towards your existence no matter what. Same goes for anyone and everyone who manages to move me forward in life.
@@monus782 I converted to atheism back in 2005 (I know, way before most of yall’s time) & trust me, these were some of the darkest days I’ve been thru, so thank the lucky stars the Lord spoke to me one night & guided me thru the spirit, I finally was able to see the ultimate truth of the Christ. Returned to the Church February 18th 2021, haven’t looked back since. God bless ✝️
One of the things that always stood out to me in my large, highly religious family, was the seeming opposite effect to the supposed peace the faith was supposed to confer. I saw people desperately worried for the souls of their "wayward" children. I saw people desperately afraid for the state of their own souls because of a past "transgression" or because of a perceived failing in "properly" raising their children who had questioned the faith. I saw people struggle in anguish over a life decision because they weren't sure what God would want them to choose and they were afraid of choosing "wrong" in the eyes of God. I saw families torn apart because of disagreements on matters of faith/dogma. I saw children kicked out of the home for questioning the wrong thing or doubting the wrong things. I saw parents living in anguish over children who have fallen away from the faith. I saw people in constant consternation over the sinful state of the world. I saw people literally sobbing over the mere existence of things like abortion and homosexuality and the fact that society "pushes" it on everyone.
Sure, on the surface, it's all love and hope for the eternal happiness of heaven. But at least in my family, behind the scenes, outside of the public eye, it's constant fear, worry, anguish, divisiveness, and pain.
Wow! 😳 I was raised in a very atheistic environment. Still people went to church but it was more a cultural tradition than a genuinely held belief. Tbh if not for these comments I wouldn’t have thought it possible there were people who took religion this seriously.
Yeah, when talking to Christians it's clear they are not at peace. When talking to my parents, it's clear that they don't like that my brothers and I are not believers. I always joke that they'll be okay with it someday lol. (I'm kinda being mean because they'll be happy in heaven as we live horribly in hell and be all too happy about it and even think we deserve it, which makes them uncomfortable)
@@pansepot1490I was raised in a devout Catholic family and during my college years I went all in and constantly doubled down in my beliefs until I just couldn’t do it anymore. Thanks to things like guilt, repression and fear of hell I wasn’t at peace at all but Evangelicals like the guy in the video might say that I was never a Christian in the first place since I grew up being told we’re basically pagans and idolaters by many Protestants.
Granted as an immigrant I’ve noticed that American Catholicism has been very much influenced by the Puritanism and Protestant influence in American culture in general (since until the 1960’s it was hugely hostile towards Catholics and maybe this was a survival strategy) and thus it can be much more hardcore than the Catholicism in other places like Europe for example, although at this point I don’t want anything to do with the institution considering how deeply embedded Catholicism is in my culture I consider myself a cultural Catholic of sorts despite being an atheist. There’s debate whether the phrase “once a Catholic, always a Catholic” is true and at least to me it does apply.
You will now forever be "f*cking Paulogia" in an Irish accent in my mind.😁
❤
I heard it as Paul O’Gia
@@joelpartee594 I made my own Paul O’Gia comment. Yes, that’s the best of the many mispronunciations I’ve heard
Great collab here.
Yeah, "we can't know the mind of God and now let me tell you exactly what he wants you to do" is a silly self defeating argument.
He's ineffable! To you I mean, not to me. I totally get him
This is just Spirit Science in a slightly better suit.
Spirit Science's probably has crystals woven into it. Like sequins but somehow even tackier.
Honestly Spirit Science is more entertaining. Hearing him ramble about his fantasy worldbuilding is more interesting than modern day Christianity.
MS: gets convinced by a good argument almost instantly by Paul
Paul: Wait, that can happen?
People that can openly acknowledge convincing arguments are super admirable
@@galacticsurf979 absolutely
Cant wait to see how our answers line up on this one. Also wanted to say how much i appreciated how you handled the conversation with Frank on subjective morality.
High praise, thank you.
@raya.p.l5919 iron chariot. Power denied
@@Paulogiaxians have to believe in subjective morality. It's subject to the will and mind of their god
Magic Skeptic !! MindShift !! & Paulogia !! The community Grows !!!!!
@@hailsagan8886 But they can't admit that because they also need it to be universal. It's cuckoo-banana-pants
It's pretty nakedly obvious, once you realize it, that the "spiritual" thing they yearn for is a return to ignorant childhood, where your parent is all powerful, knowing, and protective.
Sheesh, this guy. "Everyone is like I say I am. What I believe just HAS to be true, and everyone knows it. That's just the way it is."
Sure, Jan.
Not just this guy. Pretty much every single apologist pulls out the "Everyone *really* believes in God they're just lying to themselves about it because they want to sin" line.
Sometimes just for fun when I'm debating theists I'll throw out something like: "I know you don't *really* believe in this whole God thing, you're just pretending to in order to feel morally superior to everyone else" and they'll get incredibly upset and say how DARE I claim to know how they feel. When I point out how that's no different from what they're doing, they'll usually back up to "It's not ME saying it, it's the Bible!" (exact same excuse they'll use with LGBTQ+ hate, "It's not me saying those people are evil, it's the Bible!")
@@Nymaz Then we can respond with "It's not ME saying this, it's this piece of paper I found under my sofa!" :D
@@Nymaz "You're just suppressing the truth in unrighteousness" One of the most obnoxiously smug ideas they get from their book.
The mob's new gentle approach: Pretend to be an actual security service first. Continue to operate under the normal rules and expectations of a mob protection racket, just don't tell the "client" about the situation. Someone who's been duped is even easier to control than someone you have to keep scared into submission.
Religion has always had this kind of multiple faces for different people.
@goldenalt3166 Agreed. People tend to worry more about what to say to get the response they want than about whether it is the most accurate or honest portrayal. It's salesmanship, not the communication of facts.
This is what you get when you're stoned and watching Star Wars, :p.
"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter".
How the hell did that backwards talking frog man manage to have such a profound sounding line. It's wild. Frank Oz, man.
The difference is that the power of the Force is easily demonstrated.
@@KarmasAB123 Yoda does himself become a literal Luminous Being eventually. So he did call his shot.
@@kyleepratt Something not achieved by most jedi, and most Christians aren't saints
I really hate the Christian Definition of Joy. Because all it boils down to is the person advocating for perpetual joy is telling you to ignore your circumstances no matter how bad they are and just have joy and peace that passes understanding So matter what happens just be happy 24-7
Beggar is not original. Just more convincing that I'm sick so he can sell me the cure. 😊
I converted to atheism back in 2005 (I know, way before most of yall’s time) & trust me, these were some of the darkest days I’ve been thru, so thank the lucky stars the Lord spoke to me one night & guided me thru the spirit, I finally was able to see the ultimate truth of the Christ. Returned to the Church February 18th 2021, haven’t looked back since. God bless ✝️
@@LordOfThePancakes how does one "convert to atheism" ? A lapse of faith is not atheism, it is not an alternative belief a person 'converts' to, and it is not a belief system.
I M Begger's contrast between invention and discovery goes back to the Platonism at the roots of Christianity.
Wild how much modern Christendom claims credit for that belongs to the "pagan" Greek philosophers
A lot of conjurers are skeptics, because they know how shit's faked.
James Randi, Penn&Teller, ...
Evokes though, all completely free of skepticism. Really easy to fool it turns out 🙃
Whether or not mathematics is invented or discovered is something that actual mathematicians argue about.
I would argue that math is determined… which is neither a discovery, nor an invention.
It is the outcome of investigation of the relationships of abstract concepts.
depending on how one defines one's terms, it seems to me that mathematics is both invented and discovered and that there is no contradiction there.
True. Plus, by the axiomatic definition of arithmetic, 1 + 1 = 2 is true because that is how 2 is defined. We can experimentally verify it by applying it to coins, or experimentally refute it if we apply it to puddles of water. But mathematically it is true.
@@nickguy8037 I liked that explanation a lot!
Mathematics is simply a description !! It is simply a method of defining a property of reality. The ability to apply Pythagoras Theorem to a triangle is only the ability to abstract a behaviour of the world !!
Saying god is why there is the colour red... we just call how a frequency of light affects our brain as red. Does that prove god ?? Seriously ???
Any pleasure continually repeated leads to boredom- quite an assertion saying there is a problem with your afterlife theory 🤣
This was a huge deal for me as I got older and could think more critically. Heaven sounded SO BORING. Are there even books? Art?? D&D?!?!
@@mumther_chaos2824as D&D is satanic I guess we have to go to hell and play D&D with Satan as DM. When I think about it this way hell sounds quite interesting and enjoyable to me, just think about all the fantastic Stories he could come up with.
31:35 "Any pleasure done in repetition only leads to boredom." That's a perfect description of heaven.
31:33 he states that boredom arives from constant pleasures, then goes to try say that eternal love and goodness are what we are longing for. Does he not see that those would also create boredom?
Exactly!!!!
That's when they do the switcheroo to hide the fact that they don't have any actual answers: they start with observations about our daily existence that people can relate to, then posit some metaphysical, indemonstrable bullshit that nobody has ever experienced, that they have no way of actually demonstrating and proclaim THAT escapes the rules of the world that were the basis for their entire argument.
It's a cynical shell game, really.
Literally everything in that hierarchy derives pleasure, but he wants you to believe that pleasure is relegated to just the bottom rung because his argument doesn't work otherwise.
An eternity of worshipping a celestial dictator sounds like hell
@@hailsagan8886exactly it’s why I think that if heaven and hell were real then both sound equally as bad in all honesty though I would rather be immortal on earth
I thought I was a Christian but because of you I discovered I was an atheist the whole time. I am very satisfied with life but the one bigger problem I have that makes my life in America not satisfactory is what the religious right is doing to my country. For the first time in many decades we are losing rights in the name of god, making my happy scale go way down.
Good video
I'm a bit confused. How do you think that you're a Christian and then realize that you were actually an atheist the whole time? Did you not believe in God?
@@JackadooSmork I was raised catholic did the whole communion etc thing, but never fell the person god thing and just went through the actions. Quit going to church for the most part after high school and 35 years later started going to
an evangelical church and Bible study for 15+ years…read a book about how the New Testament is written by anonymous and the exodus has zero proof that it ever happened and saw one of paulogia video and I saw the light. I realized I never really believed in god just did the actions but zero belief
Just what is the religious right doing to your country? You sound like the Christians feigning persecution.
I am a nihilist, but I am not hopeless.
"Why do I need God?: I don't. I'm perfectly (or even imperfectly) capable of learning and finding these things with the love and support of other human beings.
I've been at least an agnostic since the late 1970s. Currently an Igtheist and antitheist. I've been fine and my life is good.
I consider myself a-theist, (explicitly not anti-theist, i don't believe there are no gods, but rather i don't believe there are any).
When a Christian I remember being taught: Joy is something inside we find from God and Happiness is a reaction to outside stimulus. There in our trials we can find Joy even when we aren't Happy. This seem to be an attempt to have your cake and eat it. Anyone hear something similar?
Oh yes, my 5th grade music teacher would say how "joy" is a deep, lasting fulfillment that comes only from God, while some other thing (she called it "fun", others say "happiness") is shallow, fleeting, worldly. I think it's an attempt to reconcile the observation of non-Christians being happy ("it must only be that shallow 'fun'") and also a way to put their own happiness on a pedestal above others'.
Never heard of this. After many years of watching counter apologetics content I thought I had seen it all.
I’ve actually heard this definition of joy from non-Christian sources. It seems to be referring to some sort of satisfying flow that comes from deep focus and effort. While I might retrospectively recognize those experiences as deeply satisfying or valuable, I wouldn’t personally call that joy.
For me the concept of joy comes from ancient philosophy. Happiness is a general state of mind, while joy is maximal happiness experienced in short bursts.
I can watch a group of birds flying in the sky and experience joy for 40 seconds. I can watch traffic and be joyful.
I can 100% be joyful (maximally happy) while being in a generally unhappy mood(though the unhappiness goes away for that time).
@@coast2coast00 I agree. To me, joy is fleeting and happiness is a deeper, more lasting state.
I've never before heard them described the other way around.
16:37 Paul, how could you not know? Happiness is a warm puppy, and Joy is one of the hosts of The View. Sheesh.
You accidentally made me think of a cold puppy ❄️🐶🥶😢
Beggar's whole thing is not too much different than a Chic tract from my childhood. A man is staring at a light and convincing someone staring at darkness that the light is so much better. It is all vagueries and nonsense until the man turns around and then the cycle repeats. There is 'something' in that light sooo worth it but nobody can actually explain it.
Starring at a light isn't all that useful. Looking away from a light to see what is lit up, way more useful.
Starring at a light like that sounds more like the whole moth to a flame thing
BTW, the Fulton Sheen mentioned was Archbishop Fulton Sheen, of Irish descent, who had a TV show in the early days of TV (1952-1968) and won two Emmy awards for his show. He was basically laid back, telling you how good you were for believing in God, non-confrontatory. I saw this show as a very young child. RockOn, Paul & Dara.
I’ve had many positive interactions with my air fryer. God hasn’t help make pizza rolls even once!
God still hasn’t accepted my invitation to play video games with me
So let me get this straight... This guy is inviting me to come "home" to some spiritual place that he admits can't be perceived in any meaningful way and that he admits has not been to himself? Riiiiight. What a rambling, incoherent mess that "invitation" was.
Our "Eternal Soul" can, somehow, DIE????
The disparity between how well these videos are made on a technical level, and how poorly they're argued on an intellectual level, is AMAZING.
It reminds me of many great musician/composers who also write terrible lyrics.
It's always the case. Super slick animations, channels with millions of views and subscribers, and high school philosophy.
`I feel it....I long for something more! I really don't want to just die! - Therefore, there must be an afterlife!` I am so grateful that I didn't have to deconvert from that type of thinking, and was able to come to terms with things like death at a relatively early age. This appears to be an attempt to create an existential crisis, so they can then plop God in as the solution. And I can see how that would work on younger people still struggling with the idea. Kind of insidious if you think about it.
I appreciate that Paulogia allow his guests to shine. Your lack of ego only enhances your own intelligence while creating a nice synergy with your guest. Kudos!
33:40 "My life has been infinitely improved...by becoming secular...". Amen!
In fairness, my enjoyment of chocolate is frequently deflated the more I learn about how it is produced. The only workaround is to /try/ to source it ethically.
Dan McClellan’s /Data Over Dogma/ podcast recently hosted the author of /Religion As Make Believe/, Neil van Leeuwen. What I got from the interview about his thesis really struck home for me, namely that religious faith maps with much greater precision over the same mental space as pretense than it does over the space of fact retention. This pretty neatly describes the grounding on which my deconstruction, such as it was, more or less exploded.
I knew already that a life of faith was a matter of persistent choice, since that’s the only way it could claim to be virtuous. But I underwent a troubling sequence of doubts, apologetics, counter-apologetics, rationalizations, etc., and suddenly the recognition hit me that there was almost nothing at all to separate the exercise of religious faith to playing pretend. I didn’t feel particularly embarrassed or silly about it, more just … released. I didn’t have to drill myself on deepening my belief, just so I could attain the dubious achievement of being able to dismiss evidence with elán rather than with better evidence. I could accept the relief and assume the burden concurrent with assessing good and evil on my own and not have to twist things in any way to meet some alleged otherworldly expectation.
I could just stop playing everyone else’s game and come to grips with things as I see them here and now.
I saw that title for the podcast episode and wasn’t initially interested, but you’ve changed my mind. Adding it to my watch list now. 👍
That talk was so good! It made so much more sense of even how I used to treat religion in my own mind. Imagining plus sacred value plus group identity... Just wow, really fits
so often i hear theists say "you can choose to believe in jesus, but you choose to not believe. its really showing because thats normally not how belief works. yiu arent supposed to choose what you belief. it takes convincing to belief something. choosing to believe something is called self deception
*Just because life will end one day, does not automatically make it, **_not worth living_** ;*
That's like saying, _why go to the party,_ as it will only come to an end.
So, life only has value if it lasts for millions, billions, trillions, ect, ect, of yrs ? (eternal)
Why brush my teeth? Why take a shower? I will have to shower again tomorrow. Why eat? Sooner or later I’ll die anyway. 💀
Thanks for having Dara on the show. Great comments!!
“Bored, because any pleasure done in repetition leads to boredom.” Does he honestly not see how his own argument proves that Heaven, no matter how blissful, is actually a nightmare realm?
Checking notes.... Looks like... no, he does not see this.
I just love it when christians tell me how I think and feel. It makes their arguments so convincing!
I try so hard not to patronize believers they way some of them patronize us, but I just can't help but pity them sometimes. I can be gobsmacked with wonder at so many things in this world, with no need to imagine that there is something supernatural behind them. I appreciate the life I have, and don't need to be greedy for more.
If anything, the fact that all of this amazing beauty and complexity could arise without any intent or guiding hand makes it even MORE wonderful.
I used to be pretty scornful of many of the believers but nowadays I feel sorry for many of the people who’re still in communities like the one I was part of.
When my faith in Catholicism finally fell apart when I was 24 after years of doubling down in my beliefs I fell into a deep depression to the point I felt I had nothing left to live for as although I still had a roof over my head and no food insecurities I felt I had lost everything at least when it comes to things like purpose, identity and meaning (as well as most of my friends), I feel sorry for many of these fundies because they may end up losing more things than I did if they end up leaving as well as they might lose not just their support networks but also their livelihoods as well.
8:50 living just to make someone else rich, or at least survive sounds like a grim picture to me
study just to work, and repeat the same cycle with your kids
As an American I appreciate the man with a gun analogy. At 5:00
That help put it a context I can really understand.
Your callback to Corner Gas shows your roots, Paul. Emma was one of my favourite characters. The late Janet Wright was an iconic Canadian actor. She is greatly missed.
@33:00 When an Irishman says it, Paul O’Gia sounds feckin’ awesome
No way I'm buying that no one said to him "you'll Go to hell. Or you need to be saved." When he was questioning his faith. Which means when he says he knows how he would have reacted if somebody said that to him, it's because that's how he reacted when someone said that to him. I wonder who it was he physically attacked.
"It's just GOT to be true!!!" Tell me it's not wishful thinking as you describe wishful thinking.
Ahh, Paul o' gia kindred spirit
Never thought I would see Dara on Paulogia's channel. Remember watching him when he first started out.
Totally agree. I've been enjoying his content for about a year, and am really happy to see him here.
yeah .. the universe owes me an after-party
I think it's debatable that mathematics and logic would remain the same regardless of if the universe we live in existed. The laws of logic were coined by people and describe how the universe we exist in operates, so it stands to reason that if a different universe had different mechanics then its laws of logic would be different. Mathematics is just applied Logic, so applying a different logic would result in something different.
I'm no expert, just a mathematics nerd who plans to major in mathematics and physics, so if any Mathematics PhDs happen to be reading this please do correct me or elaborate on my ideas, I'd love to learn
Good luck! I love mathematics and physics although life led me on a different path. I tend to despise most of philosophy though so I can’t help.
I suggest checking the channel formerly known as Skydivephil (now Phil Halper). He has many interesting videos with interviews with top physicists and mathematicians and philosophers on theological topics like fine-tuning and the kalam cosmological arguments.
You can listen directly from the horse’s mouth what the best scientists actually think instead of the usual strawmen apologists use to represent the science position. I strongly recommended it. It’s a blast if you like these topics.
@@pansepot1490 Thanks! I might check him out, sounds interesting! Science in general is another big interest of mine, especially the intricacies of biology (fascinating stuff, especially in the light of evolution), chemistry, and psychology, so I'm well aware of some general scientific consensus on the topics.
I'm not religious so the only times I listen to apologists is other people talking about them and the way they misrepresent the topics they cover as well as provide unsatisfying arguments. Either way more science is more science!
Derren Brown is one of my favorite human beings. I’m glad he got a shout out!
agree
Thanks! Guess I’ll have to learn to live without my air conditioner. Good show
stay cool 😎 thanks
Perhaps appropriately, my bedroom had it's window AC removed because I didn't want to live with it there.
Though I might push back a little on this analogy a little, since actual AC units can be demonstrated, and the consequences are far more clear and demonstrable, than the spiritual woo.
Thanks for the video gents! A thick accent always brings a smile to my face.
1. The unshakable peace bit is comical. I never got that as a Christian, but that's not really worth much as an anecdote. So go read some personal stuff from any Christian saint, from Mother Theresa to Gregory of Nyssa, unshakable peace is not in the cards.
2. I think we should be pointing out that the reason our longings can never be "truly" satisfied is because evolution wouldn't work if we could. If an organism could be satisfied such that it would no longer be drawn by its desires, it would just die. Couple that with simple habituation and it doesn't seem like there's an overwhelming reason to think that our desires are fundamentally "transcendent."
I'm about eight mins in. At the point where "everyone knows that there has to be something more."
That has come up in my life, before. There was a woman I was *very* interested in. I had a lot of incentive to lean towards agreeing with her. We were having a conversation sort of along these lines. She said, "Mankind cannot know everything." I agreed with that readily. She continued, "Therefore, there must be something more that does know." And that's where I disagreed with her. I pointed out that it was a non sequitur. Mankind cannot know everything is a complete thought. Full stop. Just because we can't know everything has no bearing on whether or not there is something that does know. I do not see the need for anything to know. The universe works just fine without anyone knowing everything.
I was so miserable and frustrated when I was a practicing Christian,and yet I pasted a smile on my face. At least now I can address unhappiness and seek mental health care. And I dont feel guilty about "earthly pleasures" like chocolate.
Edited to add : oh yeah still having the hell dreams. Do not recommend.
That’s exactly how it was for me as a devout Catholic as well, however when I finally did leave my mental health really went south and was depressed to the point I felt I had nothing left to live for since I had attached my sense of meaning, identity and purpose (as well as most of my friendships) to the Church and all of that was gone almost overnight.
I’m lucky that I managed to find therapy and medication that works more recently and although I can’t say for sure that I’m happy I’m much more at peace now than I’ve ever been.
I need god, like I need Papa Smurf or Gandalf.
Although... Gandalf....
I thought the soul was immortal?
22:03 Joke’s on you, I am a borderline social hermit: it does not apply to me, at all, and never did either.
I would say in my personal journey through the pain they caused me it turned me into the most obsessed with truth person i know. i feel it in my every day
I love how he asserts that math is discovered, not invented, as if that's a truth universally acknowledged instead of one of the most contentious (and unsolved) issues in the philosophy of mathematics. There are compelling arguments on both sides. Personally, I'm more in the "invented" category. To me, reality is what exists, and math is a language we use to model what exists. Arithmetic (including 1+1=2) is based on the Peano Axioms. Axioms IN GENERAL are ASSUMED, not PROVEN. If you ask "why do we accept the Peano Axioms?" AFAICT there's no better answer than because they're useful in modeling how reality functions. But assuming that math is discovered because it can accurately model reality is the classic "mistaking the map for the territory." The map we use to model reality is not the territory itself. We invent maps, they are not discovered. AFAICT, math is a map, it's not IN reality.
"If there were life in another dimension, the only way we could know about what it is like there, is if we go there, or of someone from there comes here."
No! Only if we go there. Someone from there coming here isn't good enough; they could be lying. There could be an innocent miscommunication. It's the same old problem with testimony.
TheMagicSkeptic is a great guest. I enjoyed this episode very much.
As I far as i can tell beggar's assertion is that we need god bc without god beggar will think my life is "dull"
Another fantastic Paulogia video! Glad to see Dara making the rounds!
Your olive tree is now branch-less.
I read the title do I (we) need dog?
Yes.
I don't know if it was intentional, but "Paul O'Gia" is my favorite mispronounciation of your monikor.
Mispronunciation? 😦
I thought that was the right pronunciation??
@@d_camaramis-pun-unciation?
According to google, apologia is pronounced like apple-ogia
It fits his old opening music.
Well about the "Seeking something higher" idea... really depends.
Like my mother was always about that. Whatever she had, wasn't enough. More money, more status, fancier car, fancier house, etc, etc, etc. She came from a relatively lower middle class family and seemed to despise that and need to get as far away from it as possible.
Funny enough, because of that she was never happy really that I ever saw. Like she seemed almost incapable of any joy. Because nothing was ever enough.
While myself? I swerved the other way. I live a life that my own mother would think is a complete and utter disaster and horror show of poverty and poor taste. And I don't care to seek out better. Just maintain where I am.
Yet I have the joy she never did.
So already to me his thesis on the "seeking something higher" falls flat. The way he describes it, then my mother (and many others I know) are seeking the bottom. And never want anything higher. And many are in that "middle level" and happy with it. Or seeking to go "lower" as they feel the edges of their limits and want that more physical reward.
Few are those who aren't already in that "highest" level who seekout "highest". And implies that people who don't seek out the highest are somehow bereft of emotions, joy, happiness, etc.
I went over to Beggar’s channel and he’s a “lowest common denominator” apologist. His content is targeted at people who engage rather shallowly on the subject - he aims to appeal to intuition - and most non-believers in America are non-believers BECAUSE they’ve engaged more deeply on the issue. However, the clearest indicator of his fear or unwillingness to engage deeply on the subject is the way he engages in the comment section. Beggar is one of those creators that ONLY engages to weakest objectors and refuses to engage with substantive critique. I’m glad Paul is deconstructing these videos, but based on his content and his engagement, Beggar doesn’t appear to be an honest interlocutor.
I'm curious, if this is indicative of a 'lowest common denominator' apologist,
Appealing to intuition and not engaging with substantive critique.
Who is a not 'lowest common denominator' apologist in your opinion?
I would say that guys like Habermas - with his attempt at historical scholarship - goes beyond mere appeals to intuition… even if he mischaracterizes the history. So too does William Lane Craig - with his attempts to use formal logic to prove the existence of god - even if Craig’s arguments are rife with unsubstantiated premises and logical fallacies. I think both have had periods of their careers where they engaged with capable critics, even if they no longer do so. Sean McDowell also comes to mind as an apologist who attempted to make substantive arguments and honestly engage with critics (he even engaged quite a bit here), but of course there’s only so much ground an apologist is willing to give before defense mechanisms reach for dishonesty and reclusiveness as opposed to the apologist giving over to honest reflection and changing their belief (or perhaps more importantly their profession).
I’m not saying that I find any of these apologists convincing, or even to be honest interlocutors, but I do think they attempted to base their apologetics on more than “deep down inside you feel/wish there was something more,” so therefore it must be true. Perhaps I give too much credit, but personally I see a difference.
@@briley2177 funny, all three of your examples I would have put as lower tier apologists than this one.
Not because I found this apologist convincing, but because I found them to be far more honest about their own position than the three examples you gave.
I guess it's a difficult job to rank in general, since it's all emotion and intuition based anyway.
I think Habermas, McDowell and WLC do a better job of disguising their emotive and intuition based arguments, so if what were ranking is how good they are at deception they could be higher tier apologists.
@@lordsrednuas
I suppose I’m not so much rating the apologist, rather the depth of their apologetics. You and I don’t disagree on our perceptions of their motivations (WLC has admitted as much in the record), but you can’t deny that WLC and Habermas have given their positions a great deal of research and thought. We agree that they aren’t convincing but neither engages in “look at the trees” apologetics… and “deep down you know it’s true” apologetics is little more than “it feels right” so it must be true.
@@briley2177 I do deny they've given their positions research, but mostly because the definition of research includes 'investigating facts in order to reach new conclusions'
What Habermas and WLC have done is more like excuse crafting and excuse searching.
Maybe that's hair splitting, maybe I have too much of a science background to want to give that word such little meaning.
I wouldn't even classify most of what I've done in the theistic argument sphere as reaserch, I'm certainly not giving it to people that admittedly lower their standards to maintain their faith
That was a good conversation. You should collaborate with Dara again
Paul O'Gia🍀
Paul, just observing that the cuts in this one seem to cut off your guest at several points. I don't think I've observed that before.
Don't make me pull the trigger! Good one!
Paul O’Gia!
I love that an Irish fella introduced a groundbreaking new pronunciation.
For the "Ties that bind" point. I go with one of my favorite dark quotes. "The ties that bind can also strangle"
8:30 "What wrong with that?" What's wrong with being born, growing up, going to school, falling in love, having a family, growing old and dying?
There's nothing wrong with it. You should ENJOY LIFE while you HAVE LIFE. It's not about the DESTINATION. It's about the JOURNEY!
Now that said, religion tells you that there's no reason in particular to enjoy the journey. It's OK not to enjoy LIFE. Religion tells you that it's all about the DESTINATION.
Anyone else notice how literal hunger has a direct physical, not spiritual, cause?
It's also not clear that 1+1=2 without a universe because that equation is following a certain aspect of math we see. You could visualize with different rules where 1+1=3 for instance. It appears bizarre to us to have a third thing just appear, but that doesn't mean a different physics couldn't make it happen.
10:30 _"We all feel something is true therefore it is."_ *Then Later* 12:31 _"Even though we think something is good or true. We later find out we were wrong"_ 😂😂😂 The proof and counter argument exist both in his brain and outside of it 😂😂
The happiness vs joy distinction goes back to C. S. Lewis.
Yes! It's how the finite gives meaning and value that xtians never get. Their narcissistic relationship with their god has them chasing infinate reward.
how is "just this life" not good enough? if we do go to an afterlife, I'm sure these people would be like "there's gotta be more than this" there too
Darren browns special where his show is modeled after s faith healing revival is incredible.
33:55 Ha! "Paul O'Gia"
When I use the phrase "There *has* to be" is usually in relation to seeing some effect and stating that there has to be a cause.
For example, I work with surveillance cameras. If there is water inside a camera dome, I might say there "has to be" a leak where water is getting in.
Prior to reading the title of this video, I had never thought about why I need God. Now that I have thought about it, I have concluded that I don’t need God now and never needed God in the past. This might well be why I did not experience any emotional distress when I realized I no longer believed in God.
What a nice surprise! I was watching Magic Skeptic videos all morning right before this dropped. I haven't been this excited since Sir Sic popped teamed up with you.
41:19 "...and it doesn't come from me." It sure sounds like it's coming from you.
I can't wait to check out magic and skepticism. When you spoke about finding out how things work and how it doesn't detract from how amazing something truly is, it reminded me of knowing how a magic trick works. If the truth is nothing special then there wasn't anything magical about but if the truth is amazing then that's where the magic really is.
I’d say there’s a spectrum that exists for which the appropriateness of the word “invented” to describe it, versus the word “discovered”
Co-signed as someone who suffered from pretty serious depression in my adolescence and was convinced I just needed to fill the hole in my heart with ~Jesus~
Also bold of you to assume I go to parties