Hi, relatively new to MESBG with Isengard as my starting army and just wanted to say I found this discussion really informative and helpful. The relatively lukewarm reception to Saruman as an army leader has really clicked with me after losing pretty badly to a Rangers army in a friendly game recently. Feel like I could have more effectively used captains and banners with that 180 points, but I'm still learning obviously. Thanks for the great video!
Glad you found this helpful! We also cover Isengard in our Top 8 Beginner Armies video. Going with captains and banners over Saruman is more effective for sure, when you’re starting out and learning the game! -Charles
seeing this tier list just so badly makes me wanna collect more Dunland! im surprised about Thrydan being lower that Gorulf but that's cause I'm probably a lot more biased about his profile. haha
Ugluck is not anywhere as good as lurtz 25 points extra gives you a bow, 2 more heroics, an extra attack, a shield 6 attacks when defending and the 12 inch stand fast for ugluck makes no difference on urks as they don't break.until 33 the maelstrom rule is so much better for lurtz and he gets 3 troops more
Those are not bad things but there's definitely an argument for the extra 25pts, Ugluk already has the important heroics so the extra ones don't add significant value. -Richard
The extra heroics is the foundation of the point its more everything else but even having that increases the utility of a champ in very specific spots the 2 profiles just aren't close IMO but that's what's great about the game everyone has different ways of playing.
i rate vrasku.(even after my noobage) with a lot of isengards best stuff being infantry, area denial with xbows can go a long way towards getting you the fights you want vs faster enemies. fighty enough that you dont really need extra guys protecting your archers either.(thats where the F5S5 comes in, means folks really have to invest in stopping your ranged, couple cav troops won't cut it) with xbows being immobile to shoot heroic accuracy does a bit more in this list than other armies, since sometimes you just have to take the shots you can instead of repositioning. i would argue that anything "auto-include" should be higher than saruman at least
We are still considering whether to come this year, it's always a big commitment for us being on the west coast! 1K sounds fun though! Pure Isengard at 1k?! We would love to see that list!
@@intothewestpodcast yeah it’s just id be getting Uruks into combat instead of wildman and I could use the shaman has a spear but idk! 1k there’s so many options
1:06:13 in regards to the isengard troll, that was the unit that made me want to play LOTR in the first place i know the argument about the cost, all the argument against him are valid ,but let me ask you how can isengard ever defeat super stats heroes, the answer is the Isengard troll supporting with spear , let's just say Sharku(lowest stat captain)is battling anyone with slightly better stats, if you tie you get to use the higher stat of the troll, it will beat almost all smaller based fig ,the trick is to not let your troll get swarmed, only use with spear has support , if you front line him ,you will lose him quick. i wanted to comment more early about Saruman you can for 447 point have: Saruman on horse with 17 warg riders with shield and spears and 1 warg rider with banner, sorcerous blast, then charge,everything move at 10 and can chuck a spear 8"away ,repeat. back in the day i would run Sharku with 23 warg riders with spears and shields +1 with banner and pull a lesser Eomer.
The troll can being some tricks and can do work under the right conditions, but there are far more efficient and reliable ways to deal with heroes in Isengard - Gorulf, Ugluk, Frida, and the Ballista, just to name a few. That said, there’s nothing wrong with playing with profiles we like though, trolls can for sure be a lot of fun. -Charles
How are huskals in fortitude? They are so bad! Even in the dunland LL you don't want to take then ( but kind of have to) An Uruk-hai Pike is cheaper, always F4 , rest the same. You lose the bodyguard &two-handed but that is kind of useless on a pure supporter troop
that stil does not make them fortitude. without the LL they would be indipendent tier😅. compare them to some other 11p units as Kazahd guard, fountain courd guard or Elven warriors with shield & spear. they are just bad (sadly as i adore the models) they should be 10p not 11p. The worst part are the anti synergys they have with themself😂
Guys, Gorulf in Valour? That’s an L. I get the arguments for keeping him there and one of them was not being able to ally him. In an Isengard vacuum he is very good, probably the best out of the Captain levels. I don’t think allying capability should have so much weight. You guys are fond of running yellow lists but he’s not designed for that. Being able to tank BIG heroes turn after turn, name me another model that does it as well as him. If I can keep a Glorfindel at bay with a 70pt model,that’s S tier cost efficiency. He becomes a tarpit and opponents now have to work harder to get their big hero out of there. Then being an actual threat with 3 strikes and potential S6? He puts in work. Guys come on, being a bit heavy handed with my boy here! Love the video though!!
He's absolutely great and it was a tough call, we hear you on him being an amazing tarpit too! I think one thing he is worse at than other tarpits is the low natural defence making him a bit more susceptible to shooting and flopping against regular warriors compared to someone like Rumil! You're right on him being an auto include in pure Isengard though! -Richard
@@intothewestpodcastI hear ya Richard, but I think Rumil isn’t a good example. Rumil is D7 which is great but he is only 2A and S4. He doesn’t even have Strike! Yikes! Gorulf is 15 points cheaper and packaged with the above. The Parry rule is nuts which is what makes him a good profile. But without he’s just meh. Gorulf still brings value without his free Heroic Defence rule. Not sure if he’s a good one to compare him too. In any case the Defence issue that’s fairly easy to overcome by putting a couple of models in front of him, it’s not a huge detriment to his profile. Point efficiency wise he’s up there with one of the best. Like I said love the video, but the judgement was a bit harsh on Gorulf. He’s not even wearing a shirt! Can’t get more badass of a profile than him.
Didn't the berserker got better in total? The -1 defence in meele but a fate roll an a 6 always. That should make him more durable 😂. Exspecially if the enemy has Strength 4 Warriors.
The -1 defence in melee definitely shows up a lot more 😂 trust me, don't count on the 6 save! Most people who play Isengard would agree they got softer. -Richard
You've awakened me by doing my boys so very dirty. First up, Oathmaker, how on *earth* is he in fortitude, the man is an automatic 6 inch standfast, a Shaman for 5pt troops and he has 3 might all for 55pts??? you can have a fearless warband for a 115pts???? he's Valour Easy. Your also going to tell me Grima is the only legend tier in this list even tho he costs 215pts? like the man is good, but holy crap, you on about saruman being a bit shit (which he can be) but putting a model that has to take him in Legend? Don is SPOT ON, Gorulf Legend EASY, he's the best hero in Isengard hands down no contest, easily up there with one of the best heroes in the dam GAME. you're gonna put him in Valour because he cant ally? Vrasku Fortitude? my guys, dont you start your points with "beginner player overate him" to make the argument against sound worse, the dude is a WEAPON heroic accuracy on an evil hero with a two shot crossbow is one of the mot insane things in this game, you're killing any mount in the game for starters, i dont care where that hero is, sooner rather than later, its dying. You say a good player can out manoeuvre or out deploy crossbows, but you forget that the other player can also be better at using the crossbows themselves. you've then also got a 3 might f5 str5 hero that can hold far off objectives, come in later on, or defend your crossbows from a counter attack, he's insane, and if you run Isengard the way you absolutely should, which is all fortitude, he can be you leader on top of it all and basically never die. You're also just wrong on Lurtz, dude kinda sucks eggs, too expensive and all but forces you to have him as a leader which he's garbage at. Uggy is fine, he's not not up in valour tho, just average. Don is right again, Gorulf is better Ug. You're pretty right with most of the rest, tho obviously the wildmen should be higher since the oathmaker should be higher. Y'all are insane. Creb are yoked tho -Liam
Great ally for sure but Isengard not having any green allies and with him being a Hero of Fortitude makes that exact case difficult! The day he gets upgraded to Hero of Valour, he moves up a tier instantly! If this is the same as the Glorfindel situation that means we got things right 😉 -Richard
Hi, relatively new to MESBG with Isengard as my starting army and just wanted to say I found this discussion really informative and helpful. The relatively lukewarm reception to Saruman as an army leader has really clicked with me after losing pretty badly to a Rangers army in a friendly game recently. Feel like I could have more effectively used captains and banners with that 180 points, but I'm still learning obviously. Thanks for the great video!
Glad you found this helpful! We also cover Isengard in our Top 8 Beginner Armies video. Going with captains and banners over Saruman is more effective for sure, when you’re starting out and learning the game!
-Charles
"Tens of thousands"
"But my lord there is no such force"
*DU DU DU DUUUUUUUUUUUU*
“A new power is rising its victory is at hand!!”
Durgbu nazshgu durgbu dashu!
Great video. I love Isengard just for various ways you can build the lists compare to other factions. Especially being able to play as Dunland.
Great video! Love that Don said he wasn't competitive but really knew a lot on how to use this stuff.
Yeah new content 🎉 I love Isengard too ❤
seeing this tier list just so badly makes me wanna collect more Dunland! im surprised about Thrydan being lower that Gorulf but that's cause I'm probably a lot more biased about his profile. haha
Do it! They’re fun to play for sure.
I will defend the trolls tooth and nails!
And the main thing is...I really like the paint job I did on him...
That's the reason to run them!!
I totally agree with Don on the bomb team, too much hard work to read.
It's so fun though! 😂
My uruk hai shaman has won me so many games with its fnp6 aura
Don't ever doubt, when the Westfold fell... I was there first
Ugluck is not anywhere as good as lurtz 25 points extra gives you a bow, 2 more heroics, an extra attack, a shield 6 attacks when defending and the 12 inch stand fast for ugluck makes no difference on urks as they don't break.until 33 the maelstrom rule is so much better for lurtz and he gets 3 troops more
Those are not bad things but there's definitely an argument for the extra 25pts, Ugluk already has the important heroics so the extra ones don't add significant value.
-Richard
The extra heroics is the foundation of the point its more everything else but even having that increases the utility of a champ in very specific spots the 2 profiles just aren't close IMO but that's what's great about the game everyone has different ways of playing.
*Huscarl* intesifies
i rate vrasku.(even after my noobage) with a lot of isengards best stuff being infantry, area denial with xbows can go a long way towards getting you the fights you want vs faster enemies. fighty enough that you dont really need extra guys protecting your archers either.(thats where the F5S5 comes in, means folks really have to invest in stopping your ranged, couple cav troops won't cut it) with xbows being immobile to shoot heroic accuracy does a bit more in this list than other armies, since sometimes you just have to take the shots you can instead of repositioning. i would argue that anything "auto-include" should be higher than saruman at least
Yeah the rankings were all close there, I could get behind this.
-Richard
Mauhur higher! 14 inch move combo for on foot models!
You guys excited for NOVA to be 1000 points?! Thinking of bringing Isengard
And I feel you guys I feel like a shaman is a waste of points but at 1000 points I feel like there will be so much terror
We are still considering whether to come this year, it's always a big commitment for us being on the west coast! 1K sounds fun though!
Pure Isengard at 1k?! We would love to see that list!
Yeah, he might have a spot there! Although I probably still prefer getting Oathmaker + Wildmen haha
@@intothewestpodcast yeah it’s just id be getting Uruks into combat instead of wildman and I could use the shaman has a spear but idk! 1k there’s so many options
1:06:13 in regards to the isengard troll, that was the unit that made me want to play LOTR in the first place i know the argument about the cost, all the argument against him are valid ,but let me ask you how can isengard ever defeat super stats heroes, the answer is the Isengard troll supporting with spear , let's just say Sharku(lowest stat captain)is battling anyone with slightly better stats, if you tie you get to use the higher stat of the troll, it will beat almost all smaller based fig ,the trick is to not let your troll get swarmed, only use with spear has support , if you front line him ,you will lose him quick. i wanted to comment more early about Saruman you can for 447 point have: Saruman on horse with 17 warg riders with shield and spears and 1 warg rider with banner, sorcerous blast, then charge,everything move at 10 and can chuck a spear 8"away ,repeat. back in the day i would run Sharku with 23 warg riders with spears and shields +1 with banner and pull a lesser Eomer.
The troll can being some tricks and can do work under the right conditions, but there are far more efficient and reliable ways to deal with heroes in Isengard - Gorulf, Ugluk, Frida, and the Ballista, just to name a few. That said, there’s nothing wrong with playing with profiles we like though, trolls can for sure be a lot of fun.
-Charles
The vibe from this video is 'meh, just play mordor' lol
😂 we promise this isn't Mordor propaganda!
You didnt talk about the magical blast ? 😅
Oops... Just gonna say that we know everyone knows about sorcerous blast :)
@@intothewestpodcast
yes I understand but the magical impact is a main force which makes saruman very good with the combination of crebains😇
How are huskals in fortitude? They are so bad! Even in the dunland LL you don't want to take then ( but kind of have to)
An Uruk-hai Pike is cheaper, always F4 , rest the same. You lose the bodyguard &two-handed but that is kind of useless on a pure supporter troop
Your answer exactly - because you have to in the LL, they have a role so you see them in lists.
-Charles
that stil does not make them fortitude. without the LL they would be indipendent tier😅.
compare them to some other 11p units as Kazahd guard, fountain courd guard or Elven warriors with shield & spear. they are just bad (sadly as i adore the models)
they should be 10p not 11p.
The worst part are the anti synergys they have with themself😂
I thought lurtz only gets the shield throw in his legion ?
Yep he does, we just like to mention heroes at their peak powers which sometimes means in the LL
Heroic Defence still works for infantry, just whether you want to call it or not on troops lol
True, but for Gorulf it wouldn’t be free then, and also means he wouldn’t be able to call heroic combat.
😂 this is very true!
Guys, Gorulf in Valour? That’s an L. I get the arguments for keeping him there and one of them was not being able to ally him. In an Isengard vacuum he is very good, probably the best out of the Captain levels. I don’t think allying capability should have so much weight. You guys are fond of running yellow lists but he’s not designed for that. Being able to tank BIG heroes turn after turn, name me another model that does it as well as him. If I can keep a Glorfindel at bay with a 70pt model,that’s S tier cost efficiency. He becomes a tarpit and opponents now have to work harder to get their big hero out of there. Then being an actual threat with 3 strikes and potential S6? He puts in work. Guys come on, being a bit heavy handed with my boy here! Love the video though!!
He's absolutely great and it was a tough call, we hear you on him being an amazing tarpit too! I think one thing he is worse at than other tarpits is the low natural defence making him a bit more susceptible to shooting and flopping against regular warriors compared to someone like Rumil!
You're right on him being an auto include in pure Isengard though!
-Richard
@@intothewestpodcastI hear ya Richard, but I think Rumil isn’t a good example. Rumil is D7 which is great but he is only 2A and S4. He doesn’t even have Strike! Yikes! Gorulf is 15 points cheaper and packaged with the above. The Parry rule is nuts which is what makes him a good profile. But without he’s just meh. Gorulf still brings value without his free Heroic Defence rule. Not sure if he’s a good one to compare him too. In any case the Defence issue that’s fairly easy to overcome by putting a couple of models in front of him, it’s not a huge detriment to his profile. Point efficiency wise he’s up there with one of the best. Like I said love the video, but the judgement was a bit harsh on Gorulf. He’s not even wearing a shirt! Can’t get more badass of a profile than him.
Didn't the berserker got better in total? The -1 defence in meele but a fate roll an a 6 always. That should make him more durable 😂. Exspecially if the enemy has Strength 4 Warriors.
The -1 defence in melee definitely shows up a lot more 😂 trust me, don't count on the 6 save! Most people who play Isengard would agree they got softer.
-Richard
You've awakened me by doing my boys so very dirty. First up, Oathmaker, how on *earth* is he in fortitude, the man is an automatic 6 inch standfast, a Shaman for 5pt troops and he has 3 might all for 55pts??? you can have a fearless warband for a 115pts???? he's Valour Easy.
Your also going to tell me Grima is the only legend tier in this list even tho he costs 215pts? like the man is good, but holy crap, you on about saruman being a bit shit (which he can be) but putting a model that has to take him in Legend?
Don is SPOT ON, Gorulf Legend EASY, he's the best hero in Isengard hands down no contest, easily up there with one of the best heroes in the dam GAME. you're gonna put him in Valour because he cant ally?
Vrasku Fortitude? my guys, dont you start your points with "beginner player overate him" to make the argument against sound worse, the dude is a WEAPON heroic accuracy on an evil hero with a two shot crossbow is one of the mot insane things in this game, you're killing any mount in the game for starters, i dont care where that hero is, sooner rather than later, its dying. You say a good player can out manoeuvre or out deploy crossbows, but you forget that the other player can also be better at using the crossbows themselves. you've then also got a 3 might f5 str5 hero that can hold far off objectives, come in later on, or defend your crossbows from a counter attack, he's insane, and if you run Isengard the way you absolutely should, which is all fortitude, he can be you leader on top of it all and basically never die.
You're also just wrong on Lurtz, dude kinda sucks eggs, too expensive and all but forces you to have him as a leader which he's garbage at. Uggy is fine, he's not not up in valour tho, just average. Don is right again, Gorulf is better Ug.
You're pretty right with most of the rest, tho obviously the wildmen should be higher since the oathmaker should be higher.
Y'all are insane. Creb are yoked tho
-Liam
Get some of those Fortitude down into DOG 😁😉
We need Jay Acharya's rankings!
WHAT ARE YALL GOING ON ABOUT GORULF IN VALOR!!!!!
DUDE IS THE GREATEST and a chad to ally in to other armies
This is glorfindel lvls of heresy
-Sean
Great ally for sure but Isengard not having any green allies and with him being a Hero of Fortitude makes that exact case difficult!
The day he gets upgraded to Hero of Valour, he moves up a tier instantly!
If this is the same as the Glorfindel situation that means we got things right 😉
-Richard
Mahur is a beast tho 😢
I tried... But the boys wouldn't listen!
-Richard