Is Echoes of Wisdom a prototype?
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- We look back at how past 2D games have been used to prototype 3D Zeldas in the past and explore the possibilities and implications of putting Zelda in the lead of Legend of Zelda again.
I am glad Zelda didn't turn into a Link clone and instead has her own unique game-play.
...The + Game in a Windwaker game starring Tetra I could definitely see working. A prequel, combat primarily via cutlass and flintlock, either same overworld or one just to the south of the Windwaker map. Or if they didn't want to do that for the reasons you stated, Windwaker remake with a Tetra prequel released the year afterwards.
Unlikely, but... Gods I want a pirate-themed Zelda game starring Tetra in the Windwaker art style so much...
I’ve asked this before but I might as well ask this again, it’s unrelated but can you maybe talk about the my Nintendo service and it’s purpose? It seems like such an odd program Nintendo has both forgotten about and also pushes at many opportunities and I’d like to hear a bit when you get the chance. :)
You're right that it's an odd one. It won't be in the next few weeks but I'll get there. :)
I think that this game is going to be an experimental game in many ways. Three, maybe four, of which I can readily see, but as I am not Nintendo there could be more to it than I'm discussing (or less, tbh).
The first thing that they are exploring/experimenting with is what you talked about, and that is the viability of Zelda in the lead role, and just playing around with her as a character. Will people be as interested in the franchise with a different protagonist? In what ways is Zelda different than Link as a playable character, and what's the best way to implement that? What are Zelda's, rather than Link's, driving motivation, and what's the best way to put in a character that in the past has been shown to be a lot more personable than Link? I am also positive, that with the movie coming up but also with Zelda as a franchise being the biggest that it's ever been right now, that they are also just generally interested in drumming up more interest in Zelda as a character.
The second thing that I think that they might want to explore might be the very same thing that they explored in a Link Between Worlds, and that is dungeons. Dungeons in BOTW in TOTK have been a *major* source of contention for many fans, with the general consensus being that they want more structured dungeons. However, it seems like the design team is liking their more open dungeon design so far, and it fits better with the existing philosophy and design of the game. This game could them another opportunity to workshop potential dungeon designs, and trying to strike a happy medium between open and closed dungeon design. Specifically, they can play around with ways to both limit and give players freedom, a very hard balance to strike. What we've seen of the game so far, with the echoes ability specifically, seems like it could definitely mesh into this type of experimentation. Obviously the game isn't out yet so we don't know what the dungeons will be like, but I think that this as an area of experimentation is definitely a possible one.
The third thing that they'll probably be probing for is general interest in 2D and more 'traditional' Zelda. The last mainlines were pretty loosey-goosey with their story and structure, so they might be checking what fan response will be like both for this style of game, but then also a more linear story (if they are going with a more linear story). If the world is more open than Link's Awakening and other 2D titles have been, then that also leaves the door open for them to try to figure out how a linear story in a (more) open world can work, and how they feel about restricting certain parts of the world- we already saw from the teaser that this is going to be a more sandbox world, and that intro gave off strong BOTW exploration vibes, so I see this as a viable option. But even if they lead hard into the traditional vibes, that still lets them see how people respond to that in the aftermath of open-world Zelda.
The last potential thing that they might be experimenting with is just the viability of the Zelda brand. Again, BOTW and TOTK (which was a continuation of BOTW) is the biggest that Zelda has *ever* been. Now they have to see how big Zelda is outside of those two games. Was it just BOTW that people were interested in, or was it the franchise as a whole? Throwing out a new title that's very different than BOTW is a very good way of testing the market in that way. Already this gambit seems to be paying off quite well- the teaser trailer has 3 million views in less than two weeks, the game has been wishlisted a lot of times already, and there has been quite the positive buzz about the game. In the end, however, sales will show.
Overall, as of right now when the game isn't out yet, it has a lot of potential. It's a lot easier to try to guess what this potential might manifest as by looking into areas that Nintendo has obviously been struggling with or working on for a while. Even if this game is a largely experimental one to workshop for future game(s) (which it might not be, again, the game has not actually released), that doesn't preclude it from being a very strong game in its own right. I for one am really excited for this game because of what it might indicate for the franchises future, but I also think that it looks like it's just going to be a fun game.
0:53 They also used Wind Waker as a canvas to experiment with "Cel shading" in HD, for Breath of the Wild.
What I'm particularly curious to see is how Echoes handles its main questlines and whether they scale back the openness a bit, since most people seem to agree that BotW and ToTK could have been more structured in places and that their main questlines were often the weakest part of the game.
Also multiplayer in the new 3D games would extend the games shelf life on social media by a massive amount so there is good business reason to try it.
It seems like this may be the case, Heart Pieces have been shown to be returning as seen on the boxart, and those wouldn't really work if you have the same level of open-ness of BOTW and TOTK.
@@Crafty_boy70It's open
@@ausgod538 That’s why I said “to the same level”, I’m suggesting that perhaps Echoes of Wisdom isn’t quite as free roam as it’s predecessors.
@@Crafty_boy70I think it’s still the breath of the wild/tears of the kingdom type of gameplay. Stamina is just not there and thus no need for light of blessings. This is a special game like four swords and triforce hero, hence no need to have traditional rules. Linearity do not fit the echo ability(which is similar to fuse and ultra hand in nature) compared to items. Another 2D link-led game with a traditional format within launch of the console makes more sense, still using echo’s and link’s awakening engine.
Zelda is not payable in this game, he is lost this time, in echos of wisdom we will finally play as the princess Peach.
I don't understand why so many people are making this mistake.
the player could absolutely control both link and zelda, just like we can control mario and luigi in mario & luigi series (partners in time, brothership, etc.) - and tons of other games that simply pause for player input (ni no kuni, etc.)
I don't think Nintendo wants to go down the GTA route with multiple protagonists running around different areas of the map at the same time, leading to 30-40 second load times when you swap.
@@KBroly They kinda did with the sages in Totk. Maybe save the idea for switch 2 because hopefully that can handle it..
How dare they take Zelda out of a Zelda game & make us play as a WOMAN! What's next, taking Metroid out of Metroid Prime 4 & making us play as a girl? 😂
Im curious about this game in the broader context of Nintendo, between this and Princess Peach Showtime there seems to be a noticeable push to have female characters take center stage. Which I think is great as someone with a young niece. But even going further than that the echo mechanic shown in the Echoes of Wisdom trailer clearly has a Minecraft creative mode inspired feel which is extremely popular with younger audiences.
The way I see it, BotW and TotK were about evolving the franchise in new and more interesting ways for older fans and experience gamers, Echoes of Wisdom seems to be focused on bringing in young new fans that will hopefully grow with the series.
I didn't realize young nieces display such strong gender-based jingoism.
I get the consumeristic angle, that Showtime is good marketing for the idea that you can just change costumes and instantly get the perceived prestige of that unifrom, without the commitment to correspond with it. As would be perfectly conveyed by the typical capacity of video games, to provide a compelling CHALLENGE in a safe environment. But instead, this "female characer" trend is coming with noticeable shallowness in the gameplay, to go with while playing dress-up. At least six years in uni to become a patisserie chef, won't get targeted for accusations about stolen valor, a girl can do that nonsense half-asleep.
It reminds me of a flight of fancy few years back, when I wished I could have gotten an Incredible Hulk game by the Asura's Wrath team, at some point. I figured it would be awesome to turn the QTE on it's head, so that your challenge is actually to LIMIT Hulk's rampage, to go towards a better outcome in the game.
But I guess that would have been too stereotypical. You know, "men are always emotional". And so are women. turns out, EVERY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH should be offended for emotion-based gameplay, so we can't surely have that, can we? No wider stereotype than one that applies to anyone and everyone.
The thing is, if Echoes of Wisdom was a prototype, it would be a prototype to tears of the kingdom. But that game has come out already.
Yes it feels more to me like a product of Link's Awakening (Switch) & Tears of the Kingdom. But I love Mr. Forecast's acknowledgement that this could lead to a top-down Zelda Maker. I think that would be interesting if it lets us build towns and forests, not just dungeons. It would fit in with how we're placing down all these functional assets everywhere, with their own weights and sounds.
And possibly a lead up to what they aesthetically want to change in possible GB remakes compared to Link's Awakening and Echoes of Wisdom's styles.
One day, we'll see 3D Zelda game but with a playable Zelda
What is a playable zelda?
This is almost that, considering the game is fully 3d. The only thing stopping it from being “3d Zelda” is its similarity to “2d Zelda” that has been established for 40 years prior.
What about a playable Ganon story? Probably 0% for that, but it would really shake up the series.
@@minecrafter3448Echos of Wisdom in third person would just be like a "Only Building" mode in Fortnite.
@@catborg780I'd find it awesome to have a protagonist Ganondorf that is good and all three forces (power, wisdom, and courage) fight against a new form of evil.
It would be interesting to have an open world Zelda game where you can switch between multiple characters like in Pikmin. Whenever you'd get bored at a certain spot you just switch to another character on another spot on the map. Characters would react differently to different characters.
I think it would be far more sensible to either keep link and Zelda in their own separate single-player franchises or if they are both playable in a single game, have it you play certain sections as the other character. But having a multiplayer mainline Zelda game could feel tacked on since those Zelda games are always focused on the single player experience. In addition, you may run into the reverse problem where players feel like the intended experience is in multiplayer, but then they don't have someone to play with. So now they feel like they're being cheated of the intended experience in a franchise that traditionally never required a second player.
These are excellent points. I’ll add that I think Grezzo with Link’s Awakening’s Chamber Dungeon and this new enemy/item placing Echoes feature are building towards a 2D Zelda Maker.
Perhaps a Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin style game where you switch between the warrior Link and the mage Zelda would fit what you mentioned
I think a game focused entirely on the Sheikah instead of Link could be interesting. It could even be a game that follows Impa after Link fell and Zelda sealed Ganon, though that would obviously be following Impa and not Zelda.
Maybe there could be another Hyrule Warriors game where Zelda IS the main protagonist in Tears of the Kingdom, while Link may not be present at all
Am 100% down for this. Impa could be a mixture or abilities that Link and Zelda on their own cannot do.
See, these are the questions people should be asking. Too many people are being critical both without enough information and without wondering the future implications to this franchise
The only implication I get from Echos, is, that playable Zelda will only exist, if they have a good enough reason from the gameplay to do it.
If the game does good then there probably gonna make a Zelda imprisoning war
Seems more like a Warriors title.
Rather than fused, Zelda and Link could be split up and you need to play both characters as you progress the narrative in their own strands of the overall story. GTA 5 being such an example of this mechanic..
Well I like the idea of a Zelda that uses a blade weapon, maybe something like a sheikah dagger, If Nintendo wants people to think more tactically well using Zelda a sneak attack that replaces Link's spin attack, where you have to attack an enemy from behind also make Zelda deal half regular damage forcing people who play as Zelda not run into a situation head on. I think it would be fun to make playing Zelda a hard mode and May playing as Ganondorf as easy mod.
If that's a way to give to Zelda the creative building gameplay so that Link can go back to an action-adventure I'm all for it. Botw was alright for me and I didn't finish TotK.
I am very curious of the prospect of this especially if they are planning some stuff for the open air multiplayer Zelda. And If I had to guess, might get a 4 player game controlling different characters. Which I think would be pretty cool and all the players having a different playstyle would be fun.
The safe bet for Nintendo is making an adventure story about Link and Zelda defeating Ganon. It might be similar to your average RPG game, but I am sure they can find a way to make it more Zelda-ish.
The one thing they'd need to understand is that for future playable entries for Zelda, she doesn't need a gimmick for her every time.
These echoe power seem fun and all, but let's not forget that Zelda herself has great magic capabilities.
It's a prototype for a new game I'm not really excited to play called wisdom of sisters or something. altho you make good points.
they have to release the old handheld zelda games - link between worlds being unplayable right now is wrong
Echoes of Wisdom using this as a Stepping Stone besides Linkle is cool! Zelda is a magic user in Smash Bros series because she is one in the Zelda games so it makes sense. But seeing a 3D Zelda ome day with a playable Zelda would be awesome to see to!
Pretty sure that Nintendo doesn't own Linkle.
I don't like linkle because link is already a girl and this is then trying to rewrite link as a man
@@KBroly I know it was Koei Techmo.
9:35 this kills me to hear, but he’s probably right 😭😭😭💀🪦🌳🕊️
I mean, Phantom Hourglass already experimented with having two playable characters that you can switch between-- albeit, only in a single dungeon, only for a small part of that dungeon, and always isolated from each other-- in the form of... some Goron kid whose name I don't remember. It was an interesting idea that had a lot of promise and went sorely under-utilized, and it worked well enough... as long as you could get one of the characters into a safe position where they could basically pass out unattended. But the first stage of the boss battle required time-sensitive switching/cooperation between the two characters, which I found to be incredibly frustrating.
Purely on a mechanical level, I would rather just transform into the Goron a la Majora's Mask. Functionally the same thing, but without the hassle of juggling consciousness between two otherwise defenseless sandbags. Maybe if they pursue the character switching approach in a future entry, it could be like... tag-team wrestling, where Zelda uses her magic to swap their positions, but only one character actually exists on a gameplay level at once. That way you could still explore the interesting puzzle element of "Do I need Zelda's magic here or Link's swordplay/gadgets?" without one of them dying in the meantime.
Spirit Tracks actually iterates on this and is more fleshed out in the Tower of Spirits, where you can control Link and Zelda separately. It's really cool, Spirit Tracks is very underrated. It has some big problems like the overworld traversal being boring, but I think it's worth playing.
I might be alone in this but I would want a Ganon game to be a strategy or simulator game. You're the King of Evil, commanding monster hordes to slowly take over Hyrule and capture magic artifacts. Occasionally swooping down to do the deed yourself if there's a particularly big target.
Interesting. Never thought about this for Zelda but I've often thought it could make a great Mario spin-off with Bowser.
What’s the consensus on the Link’s Awakening remake art style being used? I love the look but isn’t it a bit strange to see it brought back for a non-sequel? It’s like seeing a brand new 3D title revisiting, say, the Wind Waker art style without any relation to that timeline. Or am I missing something?
I kind of agree it's strange narratively although it's not impossible that there could be an in-universe explanation. On the other hand, I think it looks great and I'm happy if it saved them development time.
Depends on how well this does
Zelda needs her own villian It shouldn't be Gannon
Why not? Ganon is not Link's villain he's Hyrule's.
Zelda could definitely be playable in the next 3D entry. Instead of collecting weapons and items she can acquire new spells to explore the map.
Now you're talking! Even if it was similar gameplay, ie: sailing and sword fighting, I would love to see a Tetra game or mode
Echoes Of Wisdom is definitely an interesting title and I’m very excited at the prospects.
I think Nintendo made the right choice for this title but we’ll have to see how well it’s received after release?
Frankly, I think this Zelda title could possibly lead to a new 4 Swords.
im wondering if there will be a way to pause the gameplay in echoes, so that we can think about how to spend our echoes
One of your best videos. Great analysis.
Thank you!
Aryll
We already had a zelda game where Link is fused with other characters and switches with them in the middle of combat. It's called The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.
Very minimal characters to be fair. We didn't even meet one of them.
@@Aktedya1-jt7vw Link met the ghost of Darmani and Mikau as he was dying. Only the deku scrub and the fierce diety didn't get to be characters
@@NekoTamer15 Yep. I was talking about the Deku
Do you think Echoes of Wisdom will have any DLC?
It's great to see more Nintendo games with female leads. Though I do wish for some new IPs with female stars from the get-go ala Metroid. Anecdotally, when I collected Smash Bros. amiibo I wanted to get the "main character" of each franchise to have a little gaming hall of fame on my shelf, rather than buy every single character available. It looks great, but in doing this I realised that Samus and Bayonetta are the only women who are actually the face of their franchises. Every other playable female character in Smash is either a secondary character from their series or are sharing a spot with a male counterpart (Inkling, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Nana, Alex) which sort of half counts I suppose. Sure they could add Lara Croft, Shantae, Chell, or Jade, but it would also be really good to cultivate original female leads to add to their catalogue of IPs, not just for the Smash roster of course but also for the sake of healthy variety in their lineup.
This gives me an idea. We could get a game where you play as all 3 of them. Zelda for puzzle sections, link for the action & Ganon for stealth. Or something like that.
Link would be the stealth,
Ganon would be action.
Think back on Skyward Sword with the Silent Realms and the stealth Bokoblin section.
I really hope we get Zelda playable in a 3d game soon
Nintendo doesn’t have a major release in August. Do you think they may reveal Switch 2 in August so the press headlines aren’t shared with a game?
Heck no.
My gut reaction is no. Not yet
Maybe September at the earliest
The people who want Zelda to wield the Master Sword want Link to go away forever; some quietly, some not so quietly. Seriously, have a talk with some of them, it always ends up at that point. They deride Aunoma for his 'what would Link do?' comment from years ago without thinking what he's talking about. What Nintendo is doing with Echoes of Wisdom is just good brand management.
linkle was their first test
Zelda was already playable in Hyrule Warriors by that point. And was playable in Smash for over a decade.
Linkle wasn't a test for anything. She was a scrapped idea that Koei came up with and Nintendo rejected, only brought back because fans were intrigued by the design from the artbook.
This argument could work if this was a smaller mainline game, but Zelda has been playable in spinoffs (and Smash) long before Linkle ever existed.
Aonuma did also say he would consider bringing linkle back
Nope.
@@INFERNO95who asked you?
I love your Zelda/Link fusion concept! That would not only make for an interesting plot but also, I imagine, super fun & unique gameplay!
they've already shown they don't care about staying true to zelda series gameplay when they lost their mind with ultrahand
echoes of wisdom game looks like an expansion of links awakening and not a next gen game from 2024. i also not like the parts where it looks like a lego or minecraft game where u need to build things. its very dissapointing to me.
It still frustrates me how Playable Zelda wasn't a thing in TOTK. The whole community made so many awesome fan-videos of short-haired Zelda kicking butt and that didn't happen at all :(
zelda's adventure in past hyrule would have made for a great dlc but I guess they wanted to move on to new stuff asap, probably so they can announce switch 2
It is sortoff a missed opportunity, but nothing actually pointed to that being a possibility to be fair.
@@Aktedya1-jt7vw I disagree, zelda's short hair and using the same hylian cape as link and going together down to the castle bottom, her powers awakening to the point she finished calamity ganon and has a power of light moveset in ages of calamity were all pointing towards her being playable, nintendo definitely teased us, it must have been planned at some point then scratched
@@GenMars These all sound like stretches to me. Zelda could change her appearance for any reason, and BOTW already showed she isn't the type to sit around, even if it could be dangerous for her. Age Of Calamity wasn't even made by the regular Zelda team.
@@Aktedya1-jt7vw my point is that they were made to look and dress similar
Man you're overthinking this way too much lol
what about linkle...and i dont mean as a meme - i mean, she exists - she's link's sister...if we're going to have female heroes now...linkle is a serious topic of discussion with respect to the new future (echo) that exists now that wisdom has been announced...
She's not Link's sister, they referred to a specific character archetype, known as "little sister type" in Japan. Megumin is one example of that, all the girls in Konosuba are fitted to these AGE based slots that imply a certain kind of relationship.
It's less about being family and more the Japanese sempai-kouhai dynamic brought into the setting of living closely like a family. Or "found family", as it is known in the West now, with similarly creepy undertones that tend to go unmentioned when such found family goes flippantly between relationship and adoptive sibling.
@@sboinkthelegday3892 that's good info - ty! here's more i found on her on her wiki: "Linkle[a] is a fictional character who appears in various versions of Hyrule Warriors, a non-canon spin-off title in Nintendo's The Legend of Zelda series, starting with the 2016 Nintendo 3DS release of Hyrule Warriors Legends. She was originally featured in concept art for Hyrule Warriors, and was conceived as Link's sister, though this idea was rejected by The Legend of Zelda designer Eiji Aonuma who felt this conflicted with Link's sister, Aryll, in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.
The decision to include her in Hyrule Warriors Legends was due to a strong response to the concept art. Reception towards Linkle was generally positive, though it was mixed across different groups. Western fans showed more excitement for her than Japanese fans. There were also disagreements with regard to how Linkle was executed, namely with the concept of a female Link.
Concept and creation
Concept artwork of Linkle wielding a red and silver crossbow was first seen in the official art book for Hyrule Warriors, with a note that a female Link was considered for the game.[1] A later tweet from Hyrule Warriors developer Koei Tecmo's Twitter account pondered whether they should include her due to the attention she received.[2] A trailer for the Nintendo 3DS re-release Hyrule Warriors Legends showed a red-and-silver crossbow, prompting speculation that she would be added in this version.[1] Linkle was officially revealed for Legends in November 2015, complete with attire similar to The Legend of Zelda series protagonist Link.
While Linkle does not have any relation to Link, she was originally meant to be his sister. This was proposed by Hyrule Warriors designers at Koei Tecmo, but The Legend of Zelda franchise designer Eiji Aonuma felt that this conflicted with Link's sister Aryll in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, who is the only sister he has in the series. Linkle was designed in part to add greater diversity to the game.[3] She is the last character written by Chris Pranger before leaving Nintendo, with Pranger stating that he "wanted her to be special."[4] A scene where Linkle rescues Tingle from Ghirahim was cut from the final game due to the designers feeling like it clashed with Linkle's heroic attributes.[5] When asked if she would appear in future games, Aonuma remarked that they would keep her in mind.[6] She is described as "boundlessly cheerful", kind and naive, and "she always stops to help those in need".[7] She is voiced by Mikako Komatsu.[8]"
She’s his cousin I think not sister
Aonuma said he will keep
Linkle in his thoughts for future games
Linkle is not a canon character. Nor is she Link's sister. She isn't even his sister in Hyrule Warriors. That is a fan headcanon for the fan-made version of Linkle in mods. Link's only sister is Aryll from the Wind Waker, and an unnamed sister concept for BotW who may have also been named Aryll, or something else, had she not been scrapped.
I wish that you could choose Link gender instead of making Zelda playable. Also playable Zelda should only be in spin-off titles to have a good selling point (Hyrule Warriors, Cadence of Hyrule, hopefully a Zelda fighting game).