It’s so funny how everyone is still trying to prove their point by wise and crafty “interpretations”. I’m so thankful for people like Heiser that just give the options and make it clear that we just don’t know and most likely aren’t supposed to know. But people love to think they’re right. Just accept that you might be right but also might be wrong. Be ready, walk with the Lord, pray without ceasing, stay in His Word… and whatever happens and however it happens if you were the one who “got it right”.. maybe Jesus will give you a nice trophy and we can all take a break mid-eternity and say “congrats we are in awe of your vast wisdom and knowledge.” … Anyway.. anyone want to take a break from the eschatology argument, concern ourselves with nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified and go make some disciples? You know.. that thing… the.. thee uhh.. oh ya!! The great commission!
The never ending dispute right??. Just be ready!. Receive Jesus as savior before it's too late!. I know that when I pass I'll be raptured into the arms of Jesus!. That's all that matters. ❤❤❤❤😊
I wish all other parts of this series had been presented this way: online. Anyway, I am toward being a 'Splitter,' which makes more sense and makes me more ready for his imminent coming. .
Friends.Actually where is Abel today --is he awake or asleep? is he clothed or unclothed?is he in glory or elsewhere?Same for the penitent thief, please!?EG.
There were 70 years between the first and the final coming so for the believer it is very much at home with the Lord and in our eternal clothes and dwelling.EG.There is NO extra Coming
Splitter makes the most sense to me also. The second coming will be expected (Rev 6:15-17). No one will be doubting. It will not be welcomed by all. 1 Thes 4:13-17 is the second coming with the only material resurrection for the saints which is on the last day, last trumpet (John 6:39-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6, 1 Cor 15:52). Luke 17:22-37 is the pre-trib rapture without a material resurrection. There is a flash of light and dead bodies (verse 37) when life seems normal (eating, drinking, etc.).
If we take the scripture figuratively we will be closer to the truth but if we read it literally we box ourselves in a corner. We need both in the proper amount to come closer understand .
When I got saved I never heard of a rapture. I was completely shocked when I heard of the idea and NEVER came to that assumption with my personal studying
I don't see the conflict between the rapture and the second coming. Paul said that we meet Him in the air, it doesn't say anything about Him coming down to earth.
@@linkhudson9025 if you understood Hebrew culture, you always go out to meet someone of importance than escort them back to earth we will live. A new heaven and earth. The temple was where heaven and earth met. Now we are the temple snd Christ will visibly dwell amongst us on a perfected earth. He did not create earth just to throw it away. He loves the world (cosmos). He is going to restore it.
Post-tribbers and pre-tribbers are partially right. 1 Thes 4:13-17 is the second coming with the only material resurrection for the saints which is on the last day, last trumpet (John 6:39-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6, 1 Cor 15:52). Luke 17:22-37 is the pre-trib rapture without a material resurrection. There is a flash of light and dead bodies (verse 37) when life seems normal (eating, drinking, etc.). We leave our flesh on earth.
he seems to be creating problems where none really exists for example seeing some sort of Need for 1st Corinthians 15's reference to death having to coincide with the destruction of death towards the end of the book of Revelation. if we raise from the dead death has no sting to us. The passage deals with the resolution of the issue of death for they that are Christ's. Also where would first century believers get this vague idea that the air means heaven or some sort of spiritual realm? It seems like he's reading in later concepts of popular theology from different eras back into the New Testament for his hypothetical interpretation.
The sign on the cross should read "Jesus, the King of Israel" since the word "Jew" did not exist until ~ the 14th century when books began to be printed. Yet it is used as far back as the book of Esther, re: Mordecai. Esther 2:5. Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite; Esther 2:5. Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Judean whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;
His view is missing some very important considerations. WHO is the passage addressing? The Jewish Christians or the Gentile Christians. The New Testament has the majority of content addressed to Jewish believers. People who were still sharing in the destiny of God's chosen nation. It's very much different outcome for Gentile believers. Most people (including Heiser) NEVER realize or address this.
Hebrews 9:27-28 It is appointed for man once to die then judgment, Jesus came the FIRST TIME to deal with sin (taking believers sin to the cross) and He comes a SECOND TIME unto SALVATION (unto getting saved, unto being born again, unto receiving Christ as Lord and savior) The second coming is a timeless event that ALL Christians experience when they come to Christ, past present future. The only rapture that takes place is being pulled out of the consequence of your sin by Jesus.
Looks like the rest didn't send. The only difference between Aramaic and Hebrew is the same as between British english and American english. I tutored mike on the council of 12 before his PhD. I stated some things he didn't cater to and he blocked my emails. He then expanded on my stuff on the council of 12. But he was always the skeptic and that caused him to come up with some things that are not exactly correct. So pull out the bones and eat the meat.
@@galewollenberg786 Not true. There are very noticeable spelling differences between the two languages. They are not simply dialect difference. You are displaying a very profound lack of knowledge.
@@eclipseeventsigns No lack of knowledge, I just know what to say to get the real incompetents to show their hand. Who taught you Hebrew, aramaic, greek, and latin? It does not matter as you already have shown your hand.
"We meet the Lord in the air...air may be in the realm of the Spirit.... NO because CLOUDS are in the air we breath! Do we take it literally? WHY NOT? If you take it symbolically, it can mean ANYTHING. "how would we meet the disembodied dead..." WE WON'T! We will meet RESURRECTED saints. The Dead in Christ will rise first! So they are in their resurrection bodies when we meet them in the air.
You have a bad habit that many preachers unfortunately also have. Which is that when you start reciting verses in the Bible, you tend to mumble it and say it really fast because you know it probably off the top of your head and you think that there’s no need to articulate it. What ends up happening is that because you go through the verse so quickly and mumble it, that what happens is that the only part that we understand based on what you’re saying is your explanation or your interpretation. So this is not something that I can listen to in the car. I have to do it, where I can start and stop so that I can read the Bible verses because I can’t catch what you’re saying when you’re reading them.
But it was put out on UA-cam so that it would be available in a variety of venues. Maybe riding in a car isn't the best, but it wasn't the primary intended audience. If you don't get it the first time, I suggest that you find a quiet space and listen to it again.
"I ought to separate....or I ought to join..." NO, this is how false doctrines come into existence. The proper way is to study the texts and see of the various passages can be aligned by events and by TIME. As it turns out with 1 Thes 4 & 5 versus Matthew 24, when one discovers from the text the TIMING of each passage, one is then forced to separate. Paul's rapture is just before the wrath of God. In Revelation we find that God begins to get angry so begins the DAY of His wrath in Revelation chapter 6, which, on John's time-line, is over seven years BEFORE "after the tribulation of those days." The 70th week, a period of seven years, goes from 8:1 to the 7th bowl in chapter 16. ALL of the seals are opened before any of the 70th week will occur. It is impossible then to join the two. It is the same with the celestial signs in the sun and moon. The EVENTS or FACTS prove two different events. First the sign for the Day of His Wrath or the Day of the Lord (two titles for the same period of time) will be total eclipses (or something that will appear as two eclipses) that must be visible to recognize it is the biblical sign. This sign is written in Rev. 6. The other sign, the Matthew 24 sign, is a totally different sign-the sign of total darkness with the sun and moon being invisible. So when one understands the text, and the events, it is impossible that they are the same event. The timing also proves they cannot be the same. If John had seen the signs Jesus spoke of for His coming to Armageddon, John would have written in in Chapter 19, before HIs coming. John did not see it, so did not write it, so we don't have that proof. However, the sign will be after the tribulation of those days, which then would be late in Rev. 16, or Chapter 17, or 18, which again is a time over seven years after the sign for the Day of the Lord.
As you’re literally doing the one thing Heiser said people do😂 taking a position based on what you think the text says not what the text says… because it doesn’t say that! comments like this should be the example to all of what Heiser is pointing out. Thank you for settling the 2000+ year debate with your omniscient knowledge in these 5 short paragraphs on UA-cam.
@@BecauseGrace Let's take, for example, those that believe the gathering in Matthew 24 is the same gathering as Paul's gathering in 1 Thes. 4:17. Let's examine each passage and determine WHERE each would fit on John's Revelation timeline. Paul shows us that his gathering is before the Day of the Lord. In Revelation that would be before the 6th seal in Chapter 6. Where then is the gathering in Matthew 24 going to fit on Revelation's timeline? "The tribulation" or the 70th week goes from Revelation chapter 8 to chapter 16 in Revelation, so "after the tribulation of those days" from Matthew 24 would have to be after the 16th chapter of Revelation. How then can anyone imagine "joining" these two passages when one will come before the 70th week in Revelation and the other after the 70th week? So we allow the TEXT to tell us whether we separate or join. Question: Which did Paul mention first: the rapture/gathering or the Day of the Lord? Verse 17 of chapter 4 is the rapture, and the DAY is mentioned three verses later in chapter5. As confirmation, if we examine the 5th seal, the martyrs of the church age, and understand what they were told, it is another hint for the time of the rapture. They understand they are in the age of grace, so they cry out wondering WHEN God will judge their murders - or when God will begin judgment. God answers them: they must wait for the FINAL martyr to be killed as they all were and will be killed: as church-age martyrs. In other words, they have to wait for the END of the church age-that new dispensation given to Paul for the Gentile church of today. Paul's dispensation for the Gentiles must end before the 70th week for the Jew's begins. His dispensation will end at the rapture and "time" will go back to the Jews for their 70th week. Therefore the rapture must come after the 5th seal and before the 6th seal. The text proves this gathering cannot be the Matthew 24 gathering, for there will be seven years between them.
It’s so funny how everyone is still trying to prove their point by wise and crafty “interpretations”. I’m so thankful for people like Heiser that just give the options and make it clear that we just don’t know and most likely aren’t supposed to know. But people love to think they’re right. Just accept that you might be right but also might be wrong. Be ready, walk with the Lord, pray without ceasing, stay in His Word… and whatever happens and however it happens if you were the one who “got it right”.. maybe Jesus will give you a nice trophy and we can all take a break mid-eternity and say “congrats we are in awe of your vast wisdom and knowledge.” …
Anyway.. anyone want to take a break from the eschatology argument, concern ourselves with nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified and go make some disciples? You know.. that thing… the.. thee uhh.. oh ya!! The great commission!
The never ending dispute right??. Just be ready!. Receive Jesus as savior before it's too late!. I know that when I pass I'll be raptured into the arms of Jesus!. That's all that matters. ❤❤❤❤😊
If everyone could just get this simple truth can you imagine what the world would look like?
I’m a joiner!
I wish all other parts of this series had been presented this way: online.
Anyway, I am toward being a 'Splitter,' which makes more sense and makes me more ready for his imminent coming.
.
Friends.Actually where is Abel today --is he awake or asleep? is he clothed or unclothed?is he in glory or elsewhere?Same for the penitent thief, please!?EG.
There were 70 years between the first and the final coming so for the believer it is very much at home with the Lord and in our eternal clothes and dwelling.EG.There is NO extra Coming
@@grahamwilson9442 Abel is heaven (spirit realm) today. He gets an immortal flesh and bones body at the second coming (1 Thes 4) to live on earth.
Splitter makes the most sense to me also. The second coming will be expected (Rev 6:15-17). No one will be doubting. It will not be welcomed by all.
1 Thes 4:13-17 is the second coming with the only material resurrection for the saints which is on the last day, last trumpet (John 6:39-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6, 1 Cor 15:52).
Luke 17:22-37 is the pre-trib rapture without a material resurrection. There is a flash of light and dead bodies (verse 37) when life seems normal (eating, drinking, etc.).
If we take the scripture figuratively we will be closer to the truth but if we read it literally we box ourselves in a corner. We need both in the proper amount to come closer understand .
When I got saved I never heard of a rapture. I was completely shocked when I heard of the idea and NEVER came to that assumption with my personal studying
I don't see the conflict between the rapture and the second coming. Paul said that we meet Him in the air, it doesn't say anything about Him coming down to earth.
You don’t.. but many do. That’s the point of this message.
We meet him in the air and escort him back to the earth. All kings have s as n entourage that come out to meet him and escort him to their land.
We meet him in the air at His coming. (I Thessalonians 4:13-18 c.f. ) and the man of sin is destroyed at His coming (II Thessalonians 2:1, 2;8.)
@@linkhudson9025 if you understood Hebrew culture, you always go out to meet someone of importance than escort them back to earth we will live. A new heaven and earth. The temple was where heaven and earth met. Now we are the temple snd Christ will visibly dwell amongst us on a perfected earth. He did not create earth just to throw it away. He loves the world (cosmos). He is going to restore it.
Ok, I didn't listen long enough to see that he got that. Most don't. 🙏✝️🙏
Friends.There is total confusion about eschatology.I spent a lot of time in thm
Post-tribbers and pre-tribbers are partially right.
1 Thes 4:13-17 is the second coming with the only material resurrection for the saints which is on the last day, last trumpet (John 6:39-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6, 1 Cor 15:52).
Luke 17:22-37 is the pre-trib rapture without a material resurrection. There is a flash of light and dead bodies (verse 37) when life seems normal (eating, drinking, etc.).
We leave our flesh on earth.
Splitter or a Joiner.. interesting
he seems to be creating problems where none really exists for example seeing some sort of Need for 1st Corinthians 15's reference to death having to coincide with the destruction of death towards the end of the book of Revelation. if we raise from the dead death has no sting to us. The passage deals with the resolution of the issue of death for they that are Christ's.
Also where would first century believers get this vague idea that the air means heaven or some sort of spiritual realm? It seems like he's reading in later concepts of popular theology from different eras back into the New Testament for his hypothetical interpretation.
You need to read into the context of 2nd temple Jewish literature.
The sign on the cross should read "Jesus, the King of Israel" since the word "Jew" did not exist until ~ the 14th century when books began to be printed. Yet it is used as far back as the book of Esther, re: Mordecai.
Esther 2:5. Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;
Esther 2:5. Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Judean whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;
His view is missing some very important considerations. WHO is the passage addressing? The Jewish Christians or the Gentile Christians. The New Testament has the majority of content addressed to Jewish believers. People who were still sharing in the destiny of God's chosen nation. It's very much different outcome for Gentile believers. Most people (including Heiser) NEVER realize or address this.
Hebrews 9:27-28 It is appointed for man once to die then judgment, Jesus came the FIRST TIME to deal with sin (taking believers sin to the cross) and He comes a SECOND TIME unto SALVATION (unto getting saved, unto being born again, unto receiving Christ as Lord and savior) The second coming is a timeless event that ALL Christians experience when they come to Christ, past present future.
The only rapture that takes place is being pulled out of the consequence of your sin by Jesus.
@23:40 i guess that would make me a minority in a minority😊
The inscription was written in Hebrew so it would form an acrostic (intended to irritate the Jews), and then Greek and Latin.
No, it was written in Aramaic not Hebrew.
@@eclipseeventsigns Sorry, but you do not know what you are talking about.
Looks like the rest didn't send. The only difference between Aramaic and Hebrew is the same as between British english and American english. I tutored mike on the council of 12 before his PhD. I stated some things he didn't cater to and he blocked my emails. He then expanded on my stuff on the council of 12. But he was always the skeptic and that caused him to come up with some things that are not exactly correct. So pull out the bones and eat the meat.
@@galewollenberg786 Not true. There are very noticeable spelling differences between the two languages. They are not simply dialect difference. You are displaying a very profound lack of knowledge.
@@eclipseeventsigns No lack of knowledge, I just know what to say to get the real incompetents to show their hand. Who taught you Hebrew, aramaic, greek, and latin? It does not matter as you already have shown your hand.
"We meet the Lord in the air...air may be in the realm of the Spirit.... NO because CLOUDS are in the air we breath! Do we take it literally? WHY NOT? If you take it symbolically, it can mean ANYTHING.
"how would we meet the disembodied dead..." WE WON'T! We will meet RESURRECTED saints. The Dead in Christ will rise first! So they are in their resurrection bodies when we meet them in the air.
You have a bad habit that many preachers unfortunately also have. Which is that when you start reciting verses in the Bible, you tend to mumble it and say it really fast because you know it probably off the top of your head and you think that there’s no need to articulate it. What ends up happening is that because you go through the verse so quickly and mumble it, that what happens is that the only part that we understand based on what you’re saying is your explanation or your interpretation. So this is not something that I can listen to in the car. I have to do it, where I can start and stop so that I can read the Bible verses because I can’t catch what you’re saying when you’re reading them.
It was a conference session. Never made to listen too in the car.
But it was put out on UA-cam so that it would be available in a variety of venues. Maybe riding in a car isn't the best, but it wasn't the primary intended audience. If you don't get it the first time, I suggest that you find a quiet space and listen to it again.
"I ought to separate....or I ought to join..." NO, this is how false doctrines come into existence. The proper way is to study the texts and see of the various passages can be aligned by events and by TIME. As it turns out with 1 Thes 4 & 5 versus Matthew 24, when one discovers from the text the TIMING of each passage, one is then forced to separate. Paul's rapture is just before the wrath of God.
In Revelation we find that God begins to get angry so begins the DAY of His wrath in Revelation chapter 6, which, on John's time-line, is over seven years BEFORE "after the tribulation of those days."
The 70th week, a period of seven years, goes from 8:1 to the 7th bowl in chapter 16. ALL of the seals are opened before any of the 70th week will occur. It is impossible then to join the two.
It is the same with the celestial signs in the sun and moon. The EVENTS or FACTS prove two different events. First the sign for the Day of His Wrath or the Day of the Lord (two titles for the same period of time) will be total eclipses (or something that will appear as two eclipses) that must be visible to recognize it is the biblical sign. This sign is written in Rev. 6. The other sign, the Matthew 24 sign, is a totally different sign-the sign of total darkness with the sun and moon being invisible. So when one understands the text, and the events, it is impossible that they are the same event.
The timing also proves they cannot be the same. If John had seen the signs Jesus spoke of for His coming to Armageddon, John would have written in in Chapter 19, before HIs coming. John did not see it, so did not write it, so we don't have that proof. However, the sign will be after the tribulation of those days, which then would be late in Rev. 16, or Chapter 17, or 18, which again is a time over seven years after the sign for the Day of the Lord.
As you’re literally doing the one thing Heiser said people do😂 taking a position based on what you think the text says not what the text says… because it doesn’t say that! comments like this should be the example to all of what Heiser is pointing out. Thank you for settling the 2000+ year debate with your omniscient knowledge in these 5 short paragraphs on UA-cam.
@@BecauseGrace
Let's take, for example, those that believe the gathering in Matthew 24 is the same gathering as Paul's gathering in 1 Thes. 4:17. Let's examine each passage and determine WHERE each would fit on John's Revelation timeline.
Paul shows us that his gathering is before the Day of the Lord. In Revelation that would be before the 6th seal in Chapter 6. Where then is the gathering in Matthew 24 going to fit on Revelation's timeline? "The tribulation" or the 70th week goes from Revelation chapter 8 to chapter 16 in Revelation, so "after the tribulation of those days" from Matthew 24 would have to be after the 16th chapter of Revelation. How then can anyone imagine "joining" these two passages when one will come before the 70th week in Revelation and the other after the 70th week?
So we allow the TEXT to tell us whether we separate or join.
Question: Which did Paul mention first: the rapture/gathering or the Day of the Lord? Verse 17 of chapter 4 is the rapture, and the DAY is mentioned three verses later in chapter5.
As confirmation, if we examine the 5th seal, the martyrs of the church age, and understand what they were told, it is another hint for the time of the rapture. They understand they are in the age of grace, so they cry out wondering WHEN God will judge their murders - or when God will begin judgment.
God answers them: they must wait for the FINAL martyr to be killed as they all were and will be killed: as church-age martyrs. In other words, they have to wait for the END of the church age-that new dispensation given to Paul for the Gentile church of today.
Paul's dispensation for the Gentiles must end before the 70th week for the Jew's begins. His dispensation will end at the rapture and "time" will go back to the Jews for their 70th week.
Therefore the rapture must come after the 5th seal and before the 6th seal. The text proves this gathering cannot be the Matthew 24 gathering, for there will be seven years between them.