Dolby Atmos: In-Ceiling vs Height Speaker! Which is better for your setup? Let's test it out!
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- Опубліковано 8 лют 2025
- Interactive Atmos Demo - technodad.biz/... - My New Instagram -bit.ly/TRTechn... - Dolby Atmos Height vs In-Ceiling Speakers. Which setup do you have? Let me know in the comments after you listened to the Interactive Dolby Atmos Demo in your Home Theater!
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I'm going to try to calmly go through this by the numbers. If anyone ever reads this, I'll be surprised... but let's do this.
1. In-ceiling or ON-ceiling (or even on-wall) is irrelevant. The only issue with in-ceilings is with the ones that point straight down. At the Dolby spec'd 45 and 135 angles, most in-ceilings that aim straight down will have such poor off-axis response that it isn't ideal. BUT many in-ceilings now have either angled baffles so they point toward the MLP (making them functionally the same as a speaker mounted ON the ceiling) or at least aimable tweeters so you get the directional part of the sound aimed toward the seats. Those most directional frequencies are what matters most for cross-channel imaging.
2, The physical speaker boundary in the home is NOT supposed to line up with the orthogonal mixing interface, but with where speakers would be in a much taller space like a movie theater. What matters is THE ANGLES. We hear in terms of azimuth above us, so what is important is our ability to hear amplitude-based steering in certain regions of the room. The interface is an abstraction layer to make it easier to visualize general placement in a room. Now, in theatrical processors, the data gets adapted to the space by way of the initial setup making you input the room dimensions and the locations of every individual speaker in that room. If the home version relied on that, it would have been a bit outside of what your "average user" would understand (though us enthusiasts would love it - and Trinnovs implement some of this).
3. Research shows that we have a pretty good ability to hear between speakers on the vertical up until just over 45 degrees. Where imaging between two speakers falls off is as you hit about 60 degrees of separation (whereas 60 degrees of separation in front of us for stereo is great), at which point people surveyed were unable to accurately place sounds steered to the upper speaker consistently. The reason this is important is this: Yes, when you place speakers at your room boundaries closer to the 30 degrees of the front/rear height designation, you are making that interface match your speaker boundary in your smaller room. You're ALSO leaving a 120 degree angular gap. Contrary to what you say in the video, this actually makes it WAY harder for sounds to image above the listener. In a top front/rear configuration, you would only have about 90 degrees of separation above the listener... which inherently works better for placement above the listener. Static placements won't be precise, but they don't need to be... because research also shows that our perception of spatial resolution above us isn't that great. However, our ability to perceive pans across these speaker locations tends to work pretty well regardless.
4. The areas of the room that you show with a red X do not get "no coverage". Because we hear in terms of azimuth, those regions of the room get imaging between the two layers for sounds NOT at max Z in the interface. So for example, if an object in front of you directly between two adjacent speakers on the vertical was at say 0.75 on the Z axis, this means roughly that 75% of that sound will be in the corresponding height... but that 25% would be in the ear-level channel. So with two speakers with 45 degrees of angular separation, you would hear that sound at about 33 degrees... or basically where your front room boundary is (or where that green circle is at 5:50ish in the video). In the case of your Atmos file, as your voice moves upward, it cleanly pans from my left main to my top front left speaker. Now, does the sound appear to be closer to me once it stops at max Z? Yes, because...
5. Precedence. The fundamental truth is that a speaker closer to the listener will inherently sound closer to the listener. This is why in a perfect world, we would have a layout where the distance from us to every speaker is exactly identical. But none of us live in that perfect world, which is why our AVRs have distance/delay settings. This makes it so that sounds from speakers at varying distances will all arrive at the MLP at the same time. So as sounds move from speaker to speaker, these delays ensure that those pans move to the right degree for the intended placement. They also help lock imaging between speakers. BUT although this works great as sounds move between speakers, when a sound is firmly planted in a speaker that is physically closer to the listener, your brain still goes "That's coming from that speaker there." whereas sounds imaged between multiple speakers tend to kinda' image THROUGH their physical plane more generally.
6. The quality of your AVR/Pre-pro will not affect where you perceive a sound to be with top front/rear nor will the quality of its room correction. That speaker's imaging BETWEEN speakers will be affected by equalization (because you actually need those high directional frequencies to image well between speakers), but a sound from an individual speaker will sound like it is coming from the direction of that speaker. Now what CAN affect this is something like Trinnov's re-mapping, which can alter how all of this stuff gets steered... but that is a whole other conversation.
7. At 7 minutes, you ask how in-ceiling speakers will image a sound right above your head. Actually, they will image a sound there FAR BETTER than front/rear heights will. Why? Because they're phantom imaging between 4 speakers with 90 degrees of angular separation. Speakers at 45 degrees of elevation, too, which will already inherently sound more "above" the listener than those at 30. If they're pointed down, you still get the imaging there... IF you've equalized to account for their off-axis response. With angled in-ceilings, it would be no different than if you had speakers mounted on the ceiling (like my Prime Elevations), because the directional frequencies are aimed toward the seats. It can't "image it a little bit lower" or higher because at that point, it is just imaging IN TERMS OF AZIMUTH. You are hearing that direction, not a coherent point source. What COULD image it a little bit lower is if the object was brought down from max Z and the side surrounds started to get some bleed of the sound... but that kind of in-room placement doesn't resolve as well.
8. At 7:34, you say that if you have front/rear height, they will "for sure be able to image that sound without issue." This is exactly the opposite of how imaging works between speakers. You will never get better phantom imaging between two speakers with equal amplitude at 120 degrees of separation than you would at 90 (and the lower the angular separation gets, the more coherent the imaging between them, up to a point). This problem is exactly why Auro in the theater uses a VOG speaker - because that's where the inherent weakness is in imaging in their layout (though VOG in the home doesn't work quite as well, because... see Precedence). You are effectively trading imaging overhead for more compressed imaging from ear to height. Front/rear height objectively, absolutely makes it MORE difficult to image sounds precisely above the listener. How much does that matter? It depends... because remember, that region of hearing around us is where we lack spatial resolution anyway.
9. You're not missing anything with a top front/rear placement. Because of the separation angles and how our hearing works with elevation (which I had a long fun discussion with Joe about recently that I won't rehash here because it was nerd-level talk about AES papers), you're actually gaining precision - not just in the region directly above the listener, but in the areas about half-way between your ear-level and height speakers. To summarize what we discussed, front/rear height gets you about 15 degrees of precision for elevation above ear level, whereas top front/rear (whether in or on-ceiling) gets you about 23, with the regions below that being spatially imprecise with steering anyway. That part is, in my opinion, MORE important for good Atmos than just the "directly above the listener" content. And I say that having done every possible layout one can do for 7.1.4, upfirers included.
10. So what does all this mean? It means that the disconnect you speak of isn't that the orthogonal interface doesn't match up with the boundaries of a smaller home space, because it isn't supposed to. The disconnect is that the Atmos mixing interface is, at a foundational level, just a perceptual room-based interface for what is ultimately still vector-based amplitude panning with an additional aspect that attempts in-room placement. And once you wrap your head around it, you'll understand that what is most important is maintaining angular separation between speakers in each region of the room such that amplitude panning is still stable between each adjacent speaker. It's why Dolby's mix room guidelines are for 7.1.4 with top front/rear placement. That is literally the minimum layout being used for all home mixes. Everything above that is to add precision in larger spaces or coverage for more listeners.
Thank you for attending my TED talk. If you made it this far, comment "Channa's shirt is dope." 😃
Thanks. Said it better than I would have. I was about to go on a rant 😂
Channa’s shirt is dope!
Maybe you and Home Theater Guru's can be on with Channa and me because you both seem to mostly agree. And I also think I understand the concept of the angular separation. Perhaps we can make this a long-form discussion. We could set something like that up. It would be interested, and I'm open to learning and sharing my findings. I think we can come to a better understanding that way. Somehow, I think we're saying very similar things, but in different ways. I also think that we prioritize different aspects of the sound with regard to precision and panning. In audio, we are always working with compromise. Do you want better panning of sounds overhead, or do you want more cohesion with the ear-level speakers? That's a compromise. We have to be specific about how different layouts improve the sound in one way, while degrading the experience in another way.
Chana's shirt is dope!
Channa's shirt is dope! I agree wholeheartedly with Atmos 7.1.4 speaker placement being based on azimuth angles between all of the 11 speakers to give a more precise placement of a sound object anywhere in the 3D room. Visualize a smooth pan from front height to rear height - if the angle between the front height and rear height speakers is too great, the pan between them will "jump" front to back as opposed to a gradiant transition as the pan was mixed. I think using a protractor and measuring tape is the best way to place your speakers as the Dolby Atmos spec was engineered for on a good mix, and the front/rear height settings on AVRs is only for those who won't or can't put holes in their ceilings and are willing to settle for a compromise, like using Atmos sound bars or up-firing Atmos enabled speakers. As always, your mileage may vary.
Thanks so much for this video! Just last week I purchased a Denon 6700h, with intentions of Atmos. I have 7.1 bed layer of def techs and wanted the Atmos experience. Everyone said ceiling or upward firing. I had 4 extra pro monitor 1000's, so I decided to follow the Auro 3d set up. Two above my mains, and two above my back surrounds. All I can say is wow! My front stage sounds like I have towers.I have Demand d11's as my mains and 4 d9's as surrounds, the 1000's compliment them perfectly. When best buy installer came, he said that this was wrong, but he did it as I requested. After we calibrated, he was amazed, he said that he had no idea, but was impressed. He had no idea about Auro 3d. Thank you again for helping me make this right decision.
Thank you for sharing your experience, Daniel!
If a Best Buy kid disagrees, you're doing it right.
OMG, you are finally proving that I am not crazy!
In the beginning, I did a 7.1.4 set up for my Auro 3D with the 4 height speakers. The home theater sounded really 3D like with airplane sound coming from the front top, all the way to the back of the room.
Then I upgraded the system, made it to basically a overhead placement, and it sounded restricted. Just sudden height sounds but disappears.
I have been telling people to set it up with height speakers, and they all think I am crazy.
Yup!! Funny thing…all these other Home Theater UA-camrs say I’m wrong, but I’m not. And since I’ve been making Atmos for the past couple of years, I can tell exactly what’s going on.
@TechnoDad yea... blinded by the truth.
I have two atmos systems at home, and height speakers is 100% the way to go.
Keep up the good work. Subscribed.
Hello, Techno Dad.
Dolby Lab at the time, was too busy competing with DTSX, but failed on understanding thier atmos platform itself.
When, creating atmos, it requires from users to calibrate thier listening room into a 3 dimensional 180° half sphere. Which means the thier height speakers are in thier correct placements, however our room isn't a half sphere, its either square or rectangular shape.
So it completely throws out thier dolby concept. What users needs to do is to install front and rear heights speakers instead.
We're got two layers of speakers working together, e.g. bed levels and F/R height levels. You'll have better imagining and steering sounds that way.
For example, in the movie Back to the Future, in the scene, when the clock tower gets struck by lightning. The front height channels engages in that track, they gives the presence of elevation!!
The sound resonates rearward towards rear heights, completing the heights channels sequence.
Dolby Atmos, is a object based surround sound experience, but the way they're suggesting the in- ceiling speaker's placement is down right wrong.
Wow, it's so incredibly true!!
Immediately I changed the 4 top speakers from ceiling to actual height speakers and the object placement is so much clearer.
The Auro3D tractor demo now is amazing, really amazing (i do have a VOG which is almost mandatory now that the front heights are further away from the listening position)
Thanks for the insight Mister de Silva.
Nice! Thank you for sharing your experience, Bouke.
I had the exact opposite experience. Moving my speakers towards the periphery have diminished my Atmos effect feel and I dint feel I have much of a sound bubble.
@@FrankieKennethL This may have to do with the distance to the speakers, in my case its about 4,6m (15ft) giving me a not optimal angle of about 20 degrees, but still sounds great.
@@FrankieKennethL in general, the further the speakers are from the MLP, the more capable they need to be and more power would be needed as compared to being closer to the MLP. Not sure if that has anything to do with your particular experience
@@TechnoDad In-ceiling poster boy Gene Doinkysella must have doinked hard when he saw this video.
7.1.4 here and it’s all making sense with every video you put out , height speakers in my system. Keep
Up the great work in making more enthusiasts aware .. cheers
Your Atmos mix is fantastic. I played it for my brother, and it blew his socks off. He took it to his setup to check if everything was working.
Nice, Buddy!!! So glad to hear stuff like this.
@@TechnoDad you're not crazy you're 1000% on the money much love xxx
Hello Techno! So if I understand correctly I should use 2 front height and 2 back height wall mounted, instead of 4 in-ceiling speakers? With my Denon X3700h and 7.1.4 setup, eventhough auro 3d isn't supported. Then configure speakers in Denon as 2 front height and 2 back height. (=no in-ceiling speakers). I still can't understand how these height speakers can make better sound experience when for example airplane is flying above your head. Thanks for your reply! 🙂
Hi ChannAtmos aka Techno Dolby ;-)
Running a Denon x4700h.
5.1.4 for now. Planning to go 7.1.4.
Front height & Rear height.
Your interactive Atmos mix plays and sound like intended.
Well I use DynamicEQ and had to change some sound lvls. Because of the boosted surrounds & rears. Had to lower those a bit.
When you had the ball in the middle height, the sound came just from above like it should.
And when you go front left to front left height it did go up and down.
Again you did it my friend.
Great content. I know its time consuming and you put in a lot of effort.
Can’t wait for your next release!!
I ❤your stuff
Dolby should hire you! 😂
A BIG Thank you!!
With 4 in ceiling speakers it sounded perfect. Tried with temp height channels. Didn't notice much difference between
I say this all the time and people don't get it. I'm happy for you to get the message that overhead speakers are best. The heights on the walls just leaves a huge hole above.
It worked just like your demonstrationI . I sent it from my iMac to my Apple TV in next room and got great result.
Great video. I think a lot of people don’t understand that they only reason the Dolby speaker layout is the way it is was they didn’t want to get sued by Auro3D and they didn’t want to pay Auro a licensing fee. It was a comprise. Hindsight being what it is I think Auro should have just let them use it because it might have Studios more willing to do Auro3D mixes as well.
I don't know where this rumor started, but it's simply not true. Auro-3D was originally developed as a music format, derived from experiments in surround music recording and playback that found that adding front and surround heights were greatly beneficial for that purpose. The format was later extended to cinemas. Atmos was developed for cinemas from the start, and as such never envisioned using surround heights, it only ever had top channels plus additional speakers in the surround arrays for object rendering. The home theatre implementation of Atmos simply followed this same paradigm, it had nothing to do with Auro licensing fees.
@@FishInLA pretty sure this rumor started after some interviews the creator of Auro3D did.
False
@@porschedrifter who are you saying is false? I’m genuinely curious. Thanks.
Auro 3D went bankrupt so we can move on and stop talking about Auro 3D and save all those electrons.
Ok well I am not the target you are looking for comments from (5.1.2 Upfiring, Denon) , but since I appreciate your hard work and this was a great test of my currently limited setup which I am actually investigating upgrading and seriously looking at front height vs ceiling speakers. With 2 Dolby upfiring any height info you sent front or back or middle it was all sent to the upfiring speaker. This really highlighted how bad upfiring speakers are as its so easy to locate the sound origin. What actually did an ok, slightly better job was when you were in height overhead, the matrix effect between the 2 dolby upfiring speakers took away most of the ability to locate the sound coming from the speaker and made it seem like it was somewhere overhead.
Techno dad my man ,this is exactly what i have been trying to convay in my channel , but assholes like anoop blindly support Atmos and disregard auro 3 D the king of sound
Ok just tested this on my system. I'm running 5.2.4 with 4 in ceilings as per Dolby. Yes when the sound goes from front left to top front left it does go right up but slightly towards you - however it is still distinctly above and far forward. At the end of that transition from FL to FTL, the sound came entirely out of the top front left speaker. So it doesn't feel odd or that the sound is coming from somewhere it isn't supposed to.
After running the whole video, my conclusion was that the point you are making is a valid one, BUT it doesn't really matter in terms of practical reality as the sound does come mostly from where you expect it to.
I really enjoyed this demo and overall made me happy that my system works as intended - thank you for making one of the best Atmos demo files too btw.
Right on, Mohan! Thank you for sharing your experience and for the kind words. It takes quite a lot of time to make these and is why I have not been posting as much.
@@TechnoDadso does this mean even when its in ceiling we should change to front heights and rear heights? Is that what Mohan did?
Running a 5.2.6 setup with an Anthem 1140.
- Top middle is designated “middle in-ceiling” and an actual in ceiling speaker
- Top Front is designated “Front on wall” and is a ceiling mounted speaker angled towards the row of seats (but not toed-in to MLP). These speakers are located 45 degrees - halfway between seating and front wall.
- Top back are designated “Back on wall”. These speakers are angle mounted towards seating and are at the ceiling/wall junction
- Theatre Area is small - 12’ from front to back and 7.5’ ceiling
- Seating is 2’ from wall.
I loved your test video(s) and are great system tests. Results:
1. When you played the middle content, only my middle were is use. So if both backs/fronts are supposed to be in use in a .4 system, and middle only in a .6 … its working.
2. Panning around the room, bed layer, and height layer was as per expected.
3. Room size perception and separation of bed/height layers. Even though my front heights are halfway, they don’t make the height layer seem small. They actually do the opposite and open up the top. At their location they provide very good separation between bed/height due to my lower ceiling height. If they were further to the front that separation would be eroded. So while not ideal for going straight up from bed to height (your left speaker example) as mine does move in. The setup is much better for overhead effects and panning - helicopters, rain …etc., which is a higher priority for me.
Hope that helps
Yes! Thank you R V! Btw, I’ve wanted the 1140 for a while now…they still won’t send me one..oh well!
@@TechnoDad AVM 70 7.1.6 I Have the same setup like this guy when you play in the middle the in middle ceiling speakers play .
Thanks for this project. After watching a bunch of your videos, and a bunch from your peers, I got the confidence to overcome the limitation my concrete ceiling produced and went for 2 heights on wall up front, above my FL and FR, about 3 inches below the ceiling and 2 in the rear, at the same height, about 4 feet behind my SL and SR. I played around with a lot of official Atmos demo content and found it cool but nothing placed the sound exactly as intended like your video did. Until your full video, I was concerned about not being able to image sound above my head but when you move it across the top and to the middle, I swear it sounded exactly like a speaker had moved across my ceiling right to the top of my head. I have a 5.2.4 setup now. An Anthem MRX 1120 running PSB Image T6 x2 , XC, XB x2 with a level matched Paradigm Cinema Sub and SVS PB1000 with 4 SVS Prime Elevations up top. I'm wondering if I would have even more benefit from throwing 2 more up top, 45 degrees ahead of me (contractor buddy pitched a tray ceiling attached to my concrete ceiling idea and I'm considering it). Considering how I could trace your sound almost perfectly with my eyes closed as it moves around and above me, in my space, 16x16', I wonder if it'll add anything worthwhile or not but then again, it shouldn't diminish what I already have, right? Thanks for your great content, friend.
I have been arguing this point for about 2 years now, and always fail to get thru to anybody. Not only does it work for Atmos, but makes the setup more universal for DTS:X and Auro 3D. Now at some point a year or two ago I did see documentation that the heights are now approved for Atmos, but I am having trouble finding that documentation and only finding the old setup guides.
I think the KEY here is not just slapping height speakers up, but ensure they are angled properly. I used a laser level for this and I clearly here separation for height speakers.
The analogy I used to use was a helicopter. If a helicopter is in the distance, going straight up and then flying overhead that sound source needs to be able to go straight up in the air not be moving towards you as it rises like it would do with in ceiling speakers, the same way an object pans left to right is by fading it from left to right, that is exactly how an object moves from to back.
So that object should not move forward towards you just by going "up" and the only way to do that sonically and correctly is having your height speakers in line with your front mains.
then as it starts moving towards you it would start to fade to the rear heights. Full control of positioning both vertical and horizontal.
If you pan left to right in line, it just makes sense to pan down to up in line as well.
Problem is, while this is the RIGHT way to do it, its all about the Atmos mix, most mixes are just random sounds and effects and not true 3D audio. They may very well only mix in a sound effect that is an "overhead" effect, that works well with in-ceiling speakers rather than take advantage of what could be a really immersive 3D audio experience.
The Atmos in ceiling setup is fundamentally broken and flawed, but nobody understands or agrees.
But I am an Audio guy and I.T. Engineer I think differently, as I don't just listen to what is said, I think and learn.
I have a Ambisonic 3D microphone setup and have done my own testing so that users without an Atmos setup can look around in VR to hear my setup and see how it works.
I’ve been into home theater since the 80’s and have dutifully upgraded each time there was a new format. I’ve tried to follow the Dolby specs as close as possible and have never really been very impressed with most movies (with a few exceptions, e.g., The Harry Potter series). Until you and your associates created some much needed clarity on speaker positioning and your interviews with Wilfred, I believed the reason there was so little envelopment with surround were poor mixes. While that’s still definitely an issue, you guys have convinced me that the Auro recommended speaker positions are sonically optimal for the way we actually hear and my upcoming dedicated room will be configured that way. Many thanks and keep up the great work!
You are very welcome, Mark. Thank you so much for watching!
Your the man Channa! Great video! Much love from the Dreamedia family! 👊
Woot woot!! Thank you!!
So we should put Atmos speakers in the front and back corner heights of the room?
My playback was fine on a Shield, via Plex. My system in a Denon 3600H and I’m running 5.3.4. Seating is 30” from rear wall and 7’6” ceiling height. I recently moved my height channels from a FH/RH setup to a TF/TR setup. The FH/RH were just wall mounted shooting straight out and followed Dolby spec showing aligned with FL/FR. I saw some recently published videos from hometheatregurus channel suggesting different positions based on angles from Dolbys studio spec and aimed at the MLP. I feel like it’s a completely different and much better experience. My TF is 50 degrees and TR is 110 for a 60 degree separation between them viewed from the side. Viewed from the front they are 50 degrees overhead (45 degrees separation from surrounds) from the MLP plane. Technically the TM is the position for 110 degrees BUT your video with the plane flying overhead is 100% more convincing when that speaker is assigned to TR. It actually sounded like the plane came at, over and away. The TM did not provide that effect at all.
When your voice moved from FL to TF it felt like it came closer to me. Makes sense, the speaker is much closer to me. The full TF/TR did matrix was centered but it felt closer to me then the center channel. The rear only effects sounded behind and above.
Overall, at no point did the sound appear to come from the location in the rendering box.
Just a thought though; the program displays the audio space as a square, but isn’t the point of Atmos to be a sphere of sound? I feel like the program should give you a sphere to design within and not a cube.
The interface is meant as an abstraction to represent a large room. We hear in terms of direction, so fundamentally, the point of all the immersive formats is to create a sphere of sound.
@@TheReverendSlim my room is not perfect by any means but when Channa had the sound in the top left/right corners of that cube it played only from the TL/TR and the sound location did not match the screen IMO.
So I actually didn’t understand the assignment. I didn’t watch the rest of this video lol
Just to be clear does that mean we should face the height speakers straight out or should we still angle them down towards the listening position?
same question….
Same question also.
just stumbled upon this old comment. With no answer, I'll chime in with my opinion. The listening position. Almost always angle towards the MLP. Staying in that 'audio cone'
Totally agree, I think in ceiling speakers is not the best way to go. Also, if you have in ceiling speakers you can't upmix to Neural:X or Auro-3D. You have to assign height speakers in speaker set-up or the upmix option is not available in Marantz receivers. I now have a 7.1.2 set-up with height speakers and get a tremendous front soundstage. Neural:X upmix from a DTS 5.1 track sounds great (BluRay The Hitman) Still missing the height 2 back speakers, but in time they will come.
just tested this in my system, to me the dolby matrixing was acceptable except for the max Front height which was pushed through to my Front inceiling which sounded coming from top left side rather than top left front . great test file... keep up the good work...
Thank you, Paul!
A year+ later - still helping people. Thanks so much - subbed🎉
Very interesting demo. I have 4 inceiling speakers and listened to this in my space. My setup is not perfect as far as angles. My system is in an open concept living room like yours with a slanted ceiling like yours (Channa). It was calibrated with Audyssey on a Denon 4700H. When you put your voice in all channels the sound direction is expected. The matrix/imaging is decent too. I'm satisfied. Everything could always be better. Btw please put out more demos and with some good bass too ;. You could seriously make some money off a demo disc per say. Because of lack availability expense of theses things which you once pointed out in your bathrobe video 🤣
Thank you, Michael!
So if using a 7.1.6 would you get the sound you want put of the middle hight speakers?
Thanks so much for this video @Techno Dad. I wasn't sure if my Atmos setup was working properly (I just purchased all the equipment over the holidays), and this was a much easier test to use than trying to find good Atmos movie scenes and then trying to mute all but the Atmos speakers. So my equipment: I am using a Denon AVR-X3800h. I have Kef Q Series speakers in a 5.1.4 configuration. My Atmos speakers are the Q50a upfiring speakers. I know you mentioned you wanted to test specially heights and in-ceiling, but you might find my results interesting. I have the Atmos speakers setup in the Dolby upfiring mode (I might set them up with brackets as heights to see if my results and effects improve, or I might leave well enough alone, I haven't fully decided yet).
Results: I heard all the sounds exactly where they should be, except for the top right corner of the room. There I had an issue where it sounded more like it was from almost the same position as the rear surround. I'll have to make sure I am setup according to the proper Dolby distances and re-calibrate the system to retest since it is odd all the other locations worked flawlessly. I guess upfiring speakers can work!😁
Filed played back perfectly on a 2019 Shield via Kodi, connected to my RZ-50.
Your demo played back as you intended, with a 5.1.4 system (front and overhead heights, all on-ceiling). As expected, when you went to the top rear, it played out the overhead heights, which makes sense (though left/right were correct). Good demo. And thanks again for the last one, because I did not have the RZ-50 configured properly, but your video fixed it.
Keep it up Channa!
Thank you, Michael!
@Techno Dad so are we moving the atmos ceiling speakers or just changing the setting in the reciever from atmos to height channels? Just got your cd will be diving into that soon thanks Techno Dad!
Played the demo on my Series X. Playback was perfect and the location of your voice was spot on. However, my seating is similar to yours, so our theater seating is against the back wall. When the sound moved towards the back heights, in the middle, the sound seemed to be coming out of my projector which Is right above my head when seated in the middle. All other movement was exactly where it should have been. Great demo, and by the way, Panic Room sounds f**kin killer in our set up.
Hi James! I'm glad you liked Panic Room! I have a new song that should be out soon.
@@TechnoDad Also bro, i don't know if you saw last night's live stream from Audiohaulics. your name came up quite a bit. Go check it out.
I have martin logan afx speakers for hight and sometimes its so hard to tell if they are doing what they are supposed to because there is so much going on in the movie. The airplane at the 13 minute mark of your video sounded like it was actually flying above my head. Now i know for sure they work as intended. Thank you for doing what you're doing 🤙 Side note, I uploaded you video to a thumb drive and plugged it into the front of my xbox one just in case anyone was curious how to watch on their HT with the dolby atmos. Im sure there are other ways but this was the easiest for me.
Channa, My system is 7.2.4 consisting of the following: Denon X-6700H, Oppo UDP-205, Klipsch speakers exclusively, consisting of the following: A pair of RP-8060FAs For fronts (not using the built-in ATMOS speakers), RP-450C center channel, A pair of RP-150Ms for side surround, 1 SPL-15 Sub, 1 R-115SW, Sub, A pair of R-5800-W IIs for rear surround, and 4 CDT-5800-C II in-ceiling speakers. I calibrated the Denon with the Denon app. My wife and I ran the interactive video more than once and both of us agree that the sound appears where it is supposed to. The ceiling speakers point down and the tweeters are aimed at the center of the room. Our seating portion if very close to the center of the room. My room acoustics are far from perfect. It is a 3 sided room without any acoustical treatment.
Aimable tweeters FTW! They make all the difference with in-ceilings.
Hello. I have played the file on an Oppo 203 connected to a Yamaha A8A with 5.1.4 configuration (4 SVS Prime Elevation, 2 in front height position and the other 2 lateral height). It has sounded very good. I have noticed all the changes in voice orientation. I am very happy with your demo and my Home Theater.
Greetings.
Nice!
Great video! I now have move my speakers around and upgrade to a 5.2.4 setup. And I thought I was happy with my 5.2.2 setup.
Hah! So was I!
Great video, top stuff.
I rent so I cannot put ceiling speakers in so I have been putting my speakers at 30 degrees on stands like Auro 3D layout and totally love the sound, now you come out with this video and confirm what I am hearing as being correct. Yeah I'm happy, thanks.
What kind of stands do you get for the height speakers?
Awesome! What stands are you using?
@@TechnoDad custom made stands. Two stands are behind the TV that are holding a pair of bookshelf speakers and 2 x 12" subs, yes behind my 75" TV and they are above my TV, if you can picture that in your mind.
Actually from memory the speakers are on a 25 degree angle not 30 degree.
For the time being another pair of bookshelf speakers are sitting on top of my front L+R and another pair on top of stacked subs either side of the TV.
I will be getting stands made for those two pairs of bookshelf before christmas.
Arriving next week is a matching [single] bookshelf speaker to be used as a "voice of God" and I am getting a stand made for that speaker as well.
I am now considering another pair of front main speakers to sit on top of my current main L+R, they will be matching of course.
Once it's all done I must send you a photo or two.
Fingers crossed it will be all setup before christmas.
Hope that all makes sense.
Awesome video. Thank you. I having been looking for a test video like this for a while in order to test out my system. Was able to test on my system via Plex using Roku. Speaker setup is 5.1.4 with in ceiling speakers being front heights and centers. Rear channels are mounted on the back wall. Setup is the way it is, because I have grown the setup organically over time. AVR is Onkyo TX-NR 7100 with Dirac Live calibration. My testing with your video found that the sound in my room is being matrixed very well based on where it is being placed on the onscreen renderer. This is even with the front speakers being mounted in the ceiling and the rears on the wall. The front staging with the up and down testing was accurate. I think this is because I have the front ceiling mounted speaker mounted right above the fronts. I believe that the accuracy in matrixing of my high channels, which as mentioned in my case are quite different, is because of the Dirac Live calibration. Thank you again for making this video. I finally now understand what my system is cable of and its current performance.
So mine is 5.1.2 with Denon S710w, in ceiling at ~80deg per Dolby guide with tweeters pointed down; not your target audience but thought I'd also comment. Your voice mixes well from L to R, but front to back is where it gets messy. As you correctly state, when moving vertically, sound moves up and toward the listener. Since my overhead is only a couple feet in front of the listening position, it basically sounds overhead (that's bad). When moving front to back in the overhead plane there is no change because I only have 1 set of overheads, so I can't comment. It was definitively and interesting test. I'm definitely going to see how this sounds on my parents 7.1.4 setup and see if I can temporarily move the overheads closer to an auro-3d layout and see if we like the results better.
I'm curious to hear the results of your testing
Thank you, Scott! Let us know what happens on your parents setup.
@@TechnoDad So I finally made it home for Thanksgiving to play on my parents setup. So they have a 5.0.4 system (using front towers for subs ... works for them). Overheads are in ceiling, in a typical arrangement with front and rear in ceiling probably closer to the 55 and 125 deg angles per Dolby setup guide. AVR is Pioneer LSX-LX303. Playing the video it does a much better job than my setup since it has a couple of extra ceiling channels. However, it still does not correctly move the sound up the wall. So we removed the front left ceiling speaker and mounted it on the wall as a front height channel. Immediately we could tell that the sound moves vertically vs up and toward the listening position. So we did both. So now we have set the AVR to front heights and rear in ceiling. I like the result, but it needs another set of overheads as a top middle. What I've found is that when matrixing the overhead right above your head, its not as impactful. It does correctly fire all 4 speakers (or 2 if on the left or right), but you can't quite pinpoint as well and the volume drops a little. I have a helicopter atmos demo (I think I got from dolby website), and as it flies from my front height channels to my rear in ceiling, there is a very noticeable dip in SPL when between the two speakers. Maybe a better processor could fix that; I'm certain having 6 overheads would. I did run the Pioneer auto EQ, and verified the output with a phone SPL meter (not the best but I didn't bring my microphone from home). So each speaker does play the same level when doing the manual test tones. I don't have the ability to do a room sweep and see if its a room correction issue, so it could be that.
I think the 4 overheads really needs to be set up as front heights. We don't have the ability to drill a new hole in the ceiling and test a front in ceiling solution, but my concern is that unless the in ceiling is angled at the listening position, it will sound weird since half of the speaker output will hit the wall and reflect. I'm not sure angled tweeters would do it. Based on my testing this week, I actually will go with 6 overheads in my room when I eventually upgrade. Front and rear height channels and then an in-ceiling as top middle.
Thanks for figuring this out.
Hi Channa I am Running A 7.2.4 Home Theater System. I got 4 Klipsch PRO-180RPC and they sounds absolutely beautiful 😍 Channa My Dealer who installed my Dolby In Ceiling speakers did the Speakers just perfectly.
Nice!!!
@@TechnoDad thank you very much
Works perfectly as you intended in 7.1.4 with 4 height speakers (RP-500sa mounted on wall)
Woot woot! Glad to hear it!
Well done!
I have been wondering about this myself for a while.
I am running a Marantz SR7012 7.2.4 setuP. 4 height channel wide dispersion speakers firing straight down from 9ft ceiling between 45 and 50 degrees from MLP. Everything seemed to matrix well. At the extreme front to height transition, sound does move at a diagonal. However, when the transition is a third to half of the way between front and front height channel, it sounds like I believe it should.
Maybe, it just depends on how aggressive the transitions are in the mix. It seems that each immersive sound mix file should contain qualifying data that could work with room correction software and apply appropriate transitional delays in real time too correct for different speaker layouts and rooms.
Denon x3800h arriving today will give me a few more speaker layout options to try as well as more sub control. Also, allow me to try Dirac eventually. Cheers!
Woot woot! How is the X3800H??
Im gonna trying the height speakers setup.
Just doing an upgrade / install of dolby atmos speakers .... this is awesome .... I'll get back to you guys !!
I'm super happy I am going with heights when I get to that point.
Okay, placing Height channels has its advantages, but when doing so, won't you miss out on what the In-ceiling speaker's advantages are? Unless you have a way to get both but that would be an expensive Pre-amp.
What if you have 2 front heights and 2 in-ceiling speakers and get the best of both worlds ?
Are you suggesting not to angle height channels to your listening position?
I have an Onkyo TX-RZ830 with 4 bookshelf speakers mounted on the ceiling and I got exactly the result you predicted. I do not have my speakers right above the mains but more like halfway between the mains and the listening position and I in your file it sounded like the sound moved forward just as you suggested. Strangle the rears which have similar placement sounded okay as they are placed almost above my side surrounds. Thanks for the file!
Thank you, Lucius for sharing your experience!
Sir, your knowledge has opened my ear's eyes. You are the Morpheus to my auditory Matrix 0.o
Thank you so much, Cesar!
Thanks for the demo! I’ve got a 5.2.4 system on a 3700h using Polk OWM3s configured as TF/R/L and TR/R/L. They’re mounted on the ceiling using gimbals and pointed at the MLP. Top fronts are just forward of and in-line with the front towers at 45° to MLP and top rear likewise behind the MLP in line with the surrounds.
Positioning and panning matched the illustration and description in the video.
I thought that if the receiver doesn't support auro 3d, atmos speakers should be mounted in-ceiling.. I have the same receiver as you do, so I should actually mount 2 front height and 2 rear height instead of in-ceiling and get better dolby atmos experince? And in Denon configured as front and rear wall mounted speakers. Thanks!
I'm running a 7.2.6 when the ball is moved to the top middle, I am hearing my top middle height channels only not front and rear height. Running a Denon 6700H so the sound is moving in sync where u put the ball in all 6 height channels. Great video
Nice!
I really appreciate what you are doing here! I have 5.1.4 as front, and rear height speakers. When the sound is matrixed, I hear the audio exactly in the location highlighted in the on-screen renderer. I don't understand how people are disagreeing with you!
Thank you, Terence! I guess they like to take the word of all the ‘so-called-experts’ over actual proof. Whatever…
Do you have your height speakers labeled as heights in the avr or as front and rear atmos? I have mine physically setup as heights but in the avr have them labeled as front and rear tops so the avr thinks they are in ceiling speakers. Should I switch them to heights in the avr?
Love the technical aspect of your vids with Atmos.
One thing o did wonder and I haven’t had time to play with and recalibrate etc is does changing between Top vs Height on the AVR have much effect on sound placement, have you played with that much? (Personally I have TF and TR speakers in-ceiling)
I'm not sure how you think Atmos works. But Imagine stereo. How is that done? It's done with balance between volume and delay between your left and right speakers. I presume that is also how the in ceiling speakers will image a height channel; by balance and delay between your all your ceiling and ear level speakers. This is done by the calibration of your space by your avr.
Your speaker boundary argument doesn't make any sense to me, because the sound from any speaker bounces all over the room anyway. The calibration sorts it out to get the object based sound to your ear at the right times to fool you into thinking that is where the sound came from. That's why you only get the best listening experience at the exact position where you place that calibration microphone. That is how Atmos can be used with multiple different combinations and numbers of speakers and room layouts.
Up firing speakers that bounce sound off the ceiling must by virtue of the distance sound travels and spreads before reaching your ear must be more diffuse in their position characteristic. Sound that comes directly from the ceiling must be tighter because it has traveled less far. Either way the processing has to sort it out to balance the audio sources to give the illusion of a 3d volume sound-scape.
Obviously the more speakers you have, the more detailed the sound position can be, because there will be less smearing of the sound necessary between different speakers.
I probably sound a bit rude for saying this, but have you tried different height speaker placements i.e. on-wall vs in-ceiling? I'm just asking if you're speaking based on experience or mainly theory.
From experience, I can say that calibration cannot "place" the speaker anywhere you want. We can localize the sounds regardless of what the calibration does. The physical location of a speaker still has a large effect on the sound we perceive. Some of those things cannot be changed using DSP. The idea that Atmos allows the mixer to realistically place an object anywhere in space is also a pipe dream. It can place sounds where there's a speaker. It can do that very well. It can image a sound midway between two speakers, but that isn't nearly as precise. Any other locations are even less precise.
@@joentell I'm running an onkyo txnr3030 7.2.4 with up firing height speakers. I must admit I've never tried ceiling mounted speakers. That is a step too far for the wires Vs wife. But when I was researching this at time of purchase the considered opinion of reviewers was that ceiling mounted was always better.
@@joentell Sir, you are very much correct. There is no f'ng way that a processor at any price can make up for speakers placed in the wrong positions. Period - impossible! The machine setting distance and volume - yes, placement NO. The only way that ANY of us can get perfect speaker placement and imaging is to 100% copy the speaker placement of the mixing studio that engineered the sound track - also PERIOD. Until we ALL have our speakers in the same positions as the studios we will never get the true playback experience. But, that will never happen because we will never know the studio set-up and, of course, every studio is different. Dolby and their lack of wisdom and common sense has never made speaker placement "set in stone". I know you know this very well, you have been at this game a long time and you are one of my HT gurus. Thanks Joe and all the very best to and yours, Kevin G.
@@welderfixer I thought the whole point of object based sound was to solve this issue. The sound is supposed to be positioned in space. The avr processor then interprets how to produce that based on the speaker arrangement you have selected, be that 5.1; 7.1; 5.1.2; 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 or whatever.
Obviously you have to put the speakers in the right place relative to your listening position. I.e. up firing height speakers on top of your front left/right & rear left/right speakers etc. Angles of speakers as per diagrams on on-screen displays etc.
Then calibrated for volume and distances etc. And maybe even room acoustics.
Is the argument here that avr's are not working like this? Or that Dolby Atmos soundtracks are not working like this? Help me I'm confused!
What I do know is that surround feels 'planar' in terms of sound stage compared to Atmos sound tracks. Whether you could pinpoint a sound position with your eyes closed is another question entirely, and probably beyond the ability of only 4 height channels with sound bouncing off a ceiling to produce. Most Atmos receivers don't even standalone support for 4 height channels, and now you have soundbars that claim they can "dolby Atmos". Heck even my phone says it can "Dolby Atmos" and it's weirdly convincing! So how do they work? They must use significant processing! But with known speaker locations.
@@CorporateZombi The "Object Based" system gives the audio engineer the freedom to place the audio from - lets say - a bird flying around the camera accurately within the sound track. The engineer will have to move that "object" thru the speakers based on his/her own thoughts of where it should be and place it within the speaker locations in their studio. If our speakers are not in the same location as the studio and our AVR distance and volume level settings are not correct, the audio playback to our ears will never be as intended. In my opinion, the only way for each of us to tell if our speaker placement is "close" to correct is to carefully watch several films/demos and follow the audio object with the motion of the visual object on the screen. Examples: Does the helicopter fly overhead from front to back, does the car drive by from left to right and then to the right rear with correct timing and so on. If there is a big "hole" or a "compression" in that audio/object motion then something within the system is incorrect. This, of course, means we have to use a top quality film clip or demo material. Our friend "TechnoDad" is doing his best to give us such material, because there is so few correct and quality "calibrated" Atmos demos out there. There should be and maybe there is demos that are mastered in each speaker configuration in use, but I have yet to find any. Any of those disks are horded and kept "Top Secret" by those that have them.
With all of the failings of Dolby, the studios and the equipment manufacturers on telling us where "exactly" to place our speakers the machine cannot tell where we mounted our speakers. Maybe someday with a billion dollars worth of software R&D the machine may be able to figure out where we placed our speakers. One would think that some of the Billionaire priced machines this feature would be available today.
I hope this helps. Please ask any questions, I'll try to help as most of us in the "hobby" would. There's a lot of long time experienced guys and gals willing to help.
All the very best to you and yours, Kevin
I think you’re on to something. So I played your Atmos heights demo: Plex/Shield Pro connected to Denon X3700H in 7.2.4 (4 heights).
My imaging results were about 90% accurate. It highlighted that my heights aren’t lined up with my L/R channels (they are slightly inside my bed layer) so the vertical up and down was slightly tilted, but technically accurate. As a result, I’m planning to align my heights and recalibrate.
It would also be nice if you did a similar demo but using a sound or tone instead of your voice, as it was difficult to determine if the transition from one position (speaker) to another was smooth.
I'm glad it's voice and not tone, so I could equalize all my speakers individually, making them tonally the same. Great!
If I had the money to make a 7.1.6 with 2 pairs of ceiling and 1 pair of front heights that would definitely be ideal. If you only have 4 channels for height than I think without question it’s better for overhead sound when compared to just 4 wall mounted height channels. Something that did make me torn was whether or not to have 1 forward height speaker & 1 pair of ceiling or go with 2 ceiling. I think so long as your ceiling speakers are properly placed it’ll work great. The forward front ceiling speakers are further enough away to simulate that height sound out in front of you..
I sooner or later want to upgrade my processor. I am thinking about doing 2 pairs of heights and 1 pair of in ceiling mid room. For my fronts I currently have towers, but want to do wides also. With those I would do bookshelves.
The thing you have to be careful of with x.x.6 is that a lot of Atmos mixes use two static objects (the beds) at the top mid location and no dynamic objects outside of that. So say if you had front/rear height and top mid, those movies will play NOTHING from your front/rear heights and all height sound will come from the top mids. Ready Player One is one of those locked 7.1.2 bed mixes. With most of the content out there now, you'd actually be better off sticking to 4 heights at top front/rear, since those mixes with locked top mid objects will use all 4 speakers to image that sound between them.
@@TheReverendSlim this is an under rated comment. are u saying most movies are using only 2 mid height channels. so it's best to stick with a 7.1.6 setup that has on a marantz/denon front heights, rear heights and 2 ceiling mids for the best results?
@@anthonysmithjr.7388 I don't know about "most" movies. It looks like increasingly, they're at least using dynamic objects during scenes that call for it and leaning on the height beds at top mid for everything else. And most Netflix stuff in Atmos actually uses dynamic objects well.
And no, I don't subscribe to the theory that x.x.6 with front/rear heights and top mids give you the best results. The number of heights you use depends solely on how many seats you're trying to cover, and whether you use front/rear height or top front/rear depends solely on where those angular designations fall in your room and what your preferences are. For my money, the best results can be obtained with a 7.1.4 layout with well-placed top front/rear (whether in-ceiling or on-ceiling) because A) it matches the layout used to monitor home mixes, and B) it images static top mid objects in locked mixes between the top front/rear, which will give a more generalized sound than reproducing them from single point sources at top mid. There's a balance between coverage, aiming, and available resources.
@@TheReverendSlim thanks for that very insightful comment. I have a marantz sr8015 in a 7.1.6 layout. I can't figure out if it's best to set the configuration to height front left/right, ceiling mid left/right and height back left/right OR... to set it 6 ceiling speakers left/right. I tested with the dolby app demo's and it seems to image and sound just the same either way you set it. Also for some reason if I set it all 6 as height the side left/right heights do not play sound as it seems that is not an ATMOS compatible configuration. Can only get atmos is the mids are ceiling or if the all the .6 speakers are set to ceiling (top). But i'd love to hear your insight on this. Also it doesn't seem to matter if i set it to ceiling but still keep the speakers angled towards me in a height position. it seems to image better that way anyway. Making me think dolby has the ceiling thing due to the Auro 3d lawsuit or whatever and that is the only reason they show their configurations this way. but i could be wrong, just a theory.
I thought "height speakers" is the umbrella term that could mean either "in-ceiling" or "on-wall" speakers?
Great video! I was about to sell my SVS Heights for in ceiling speakers but now I’m holding off. Finally someone is tackling this issue.
I’m glad you liked the video. More to come in this topic, so don’t buy or sell anything just yet…
@@TechnoDad do you have a pre/pro yet? I wonder how much that makes a difference. Now I wonder about Imax Enhanced with heights vs ceiling 🤔
Question for you (or anyone who wants to chime in). In my setup I'm forced to have my couch against the back wall. Should I do 5.1.2 or 5.1.4? I was going to do in wall for the surround and in ceiling speakers for the Atmos (after watching the video I'm considering height speakers instead. Small room 12' wide, 15' deep with 8' ceiling. Does the 5.1.2 setup make more sense since my back is to the wall? Thanks!
I played the demo on my 5.1.2 system Denon X4500H .2 are front height speakers. Front height were quiet spot on in their presentation, Up Down was perfect only when it went to back height it sounded like sound was matrixed from rear and front height or may be just rear speakers. Even the Top center sounded like it came from front height.. other wise the demo was superb and truly was able to experience Atmos mix. One more observation i want to point out here. Denon is capable of Auro3D when i switched the sound process from Atmos to Auro3D all the height channel output was actually played through the front channels and none from the height speakers. which was quiet a surrprise. Ideally Auro3D should be able to utilise the height channel and play it well.. but well it just didnt!.
Auro cant access the height information encoded in Atmos. For me also everything was playing on the floor. But in the corners there was a strong reverb with Auro. I tested with some Movies like Blade-runner or edge of tomorrow how good Auro can reproduce height information by up-mixing. And with movies the algorithm is astonishingly good. Perhaps it just did not got the information needed to place TD in the heights. I always use Auro3D on Atmos tracks. Not because Atmos is bad by itself but because the production of Atmos tracks in Hollywood is FUBAR. But this is another topic. End of line for me is, even if, and this is a big if, Auro has sometimes less quality in the heights than Atmos, it still makes the whole movie sound better. And I take a whole movie anytime over 5 seconds or less in two hours.
Great & informative video. I got into ATMOS a few years ago with a Yamaha 5.2.2 RX860. I used 2 klipsch atmos wall mount speakers behind my 2 front towers. for atmos/ effects. I considered ceiling mount speakers, but, intuitively, I didnt think the imaging would work as well as wall mount, keeping in mind that I'd be upgrading to at least a 5.2.4 as the technology matured and prices became more affordable for me.
I just had the DENON 3800 delivered the other day, along with 2 more wall mount Atmos speakers. Its going to get hooked up this weekend. Your videos have been incredibly helpful in how I will be laying it all out.
Its a family living room, not a dedicated theater room, so it wont be optimal, compromises will be necessary, but between your tips, and the onboard DSP ( or is it sorcery?) I am confident its going to be amazing.
Im really stoked about the 4 discreet subwoofer outputs and bass management.
I use 3 subs and have issues with dead spots, in room resonance and bass bleeding into other parts of the house. The Denon 3800 should make a dramatic improvement over the Yammy 860.
Thank you for sharing, Mark!
Are you gonna post another interactive demo that involes more objects? I would love to test that?
Currently have Atmos 5.2.4 Configuration with wall mounted Height rather than in ceiling.
Front Heights mounted on wall near ceiling, not quite (but almost) directly above L/R Mains.
Rear Heights are side wall mounted (near ceiling), close to where top corners where side and back walls meet.
Height locations are limitations imposed by the Living Room layout (and wife acceptance factor).
My Denon Receiver with Audyssey xt32 appears have done a pretty decent job with the room calibration.
When running your Atmos demo:
The location movement from L/R Front to Front L/R Heights and to the "Above" Central Height location was all handled fairly well.
Even my wife (who is not into these things, and just "puts up with it") was able to notice it.
My Atmos Height setup is currently a Frankenstein's Monster of mixed speaker brands.
Front and Rear Height Speakers are from different manufactures, so heights are not timber matched.
I normally dont notice the timber differences with regular ATMOS effects/content.
However, this demo consists of your "voice" moving.
The timber differences were OBVIOUS when a voice was moving from Front Height to Rear Height locations.
Only just found this video and i love this demo. It works very well for my up-firing Dolby speakers. But top centre to top centre back is a problem because my Dolby speakers are surround heights, not surround back heights. So the pan from above me to behind me doesn't work as well as it should. I did a test rewire and speaker substitution and your demo now works perfectly. So now I have to properly move my surround heights to the back and buy some more speaker wire.
When they say ignorance is bliss I'm not sure about that. But it sure is less hassle and expense :)
I was almost about to consider replacing my mini-bookshelf speakers that I'm using as heights with a set of in-ceiling speakers. Thank goodness I watched this video first! Definitely keeping them now.
I'm glad you found the video as well! Keep those height channels. Maybe add two in ceilings directly above you?? ua-cam.com/video/5FSBMUNmMyE/v-deo.html
More, more, more please. Keep 'em coming!
This was a much needed video, as many existing test videos only use a test tone or noise and don't pan from speaker to speaker. It was also helpful that there was a piece where your voice was rear centre for some time, which made me realise that my rear speakers weren't in phase, as I didn't hear you distinctly from the middle. In a next video, please do a left, right, both for each speaker pair. (front LR, surround LR, rear surround LR, top front LR, top rear LR)
It's also very useful that your video is voice-based, so I could tonally optimise each individual speaker with the equaliser.
Marantz SR 7010, 7.2.4 setup, 4 on ceiling EVID 4.2 aimed at listening position, mounted according to Dolby in a rectangle above MLP, Nvidia Shield.
Thank you, Tex! I will try that out!
Great insight. I am upgrading from 2 to 4 atmos channels. I am thinking of going with height instead of ceiling.
Nice!
Lol, i finally made it back to the source of one of the BEST atmos tests in existence.
Testing on 9.2.6 and the panning is so much better with front heights. Still haven't done ARC but yes localisation from front left height is on point.
I was using my two atmos speakers (in a 5.1.2 setup) at the very front height of the ceiling at an equidistant distance between them but I always felt that the sound coming from the top lacked spaciousness so what I did was to put them at the very top of each corners of the front wall and wow!, now the sound is more spacious and crisp, I didn't know what I was missing!, the crossover frequency is very important, in my case I set it to 150Hz since that's the recommended setting when the size of the speaker cone is 2.7 inches
-Denon X4300H with 5.1.4 config
-SVS Prime Elevations are mounted on the ceiling in Dolby's recommended in-ceiling config
-Angle to front height speakers is ~55 degrees, angle to rear height speakers is ~115-120 degrees
-FL to FLH: the sound object travels closer to me as it moves from FL to FLH, towards me and up, object does not sound directly above FL when it plays from FLH.
-FR to FRH: same as above, but opposite (obviously)
-C channel to C of front height: the sound object sounds not quite directly above me, but no where near the front wall, its as close as it can be to the front wall given my speaker placement
-C channel to right above head: sounds perfect, as you intended
-C of rear heights: sounds basically right above my head (contraint of my speaker placement)
-C to right above head diagonal: the sound object seems to pass right in front of my face as it moves down, not hardly any space between me and the sound object.
This is a super interesting experiment. Thank you for putting this test video together. I'm now questioning the positioning of my Elevations, but will leave them as is for now because I don't want to put more holes in my drywall :)
Yeah, you put your heights too close to you. I also run Prime Elevations on the ceiling, and the baffle angle only being 20 degrees comes with some compromises because putting them too far forward/back will get you outside of their usable listening window. But you should be able to move them to 45/135 (if you're physically able to) and get better pans from ear-level upward... and better longitudinal movement with pans.
Where I screwed up with mine was mounting them pointed straight forward/back. Looking at the dispersion pattern of the Primes in general, it would have made more sense in hindsight to rotate the mount 45 degrees so they aimed toward the middle of the room, which would have given better seat-to-seat coverage for people sitting to my sides. It still sounds great how I have them... but you do see a dip in response near where SVS crosses the tweeter over to the mid. And someone sitting on the left doesn't hear the right heights as well, and vice-versa.
I say move them. Holes in drywall are easy to fill. And I know... This isn't where my Elevations were when I first installed them. 😉
Could you tell us what the angle of your height speakers are compared to your seating position?
Hi! 30 degrees up on the front wall
I'd be curious to see how many people with home theaters don't have any rear channels at all - I bet a lot. I can't do them in my room because my stairwell is behind a half wall to the rear of my couch. I have one pair of ceiling speakers placed slightly in front of the listening position. I know I'm not getting the best Atmos experience, but I also know that I never really can. I think your advice is great for people that have the ability to put speakers in the ideal locations, but I think the majority of us are just doing the best we can with what we've got, lol. Keep up the great work!
I'm using on wall for my Atmos and for the most part all the panning was correct using an AVM 90. I did notice an issue when the placement was in the middle of the front and rear heights. The sound was more prominent towards the front instead of being in the middle. I was able to correct the imaging by raising the trim of the rear speaker by about 4dB. My front and rear speakers are a different brands and I've always wondered if that would make much of a difference for Atmos content and this kind of proves that it does.
Simple question... Should we be focus on the position of speakers in relation to the room, or in relation to the listener?
7.1.4 on a Denon x3700 and outlaw model 7000 amp. 4 bookshelf speakers mounted on ceiling within Dolby spec, angled toward MLP. I think the main thing with Dolby spec vs Auro or DTS:X is thinking of it more like a bubble shape than a rectangular box shape. My speaker placement is within the Dolby spec but being that they are bookshelf’s and not too far forward from the front L&R for example they are probably in between being ceiling and height. In regards to the demo, when going from FL to TFL it didn’t sound like it came really far forward. Just moved up to the TFL speaker. If I closed my eyes it seemed to love every so slightly forward but it was minimal.
I noticed the biggest difference or limitation is our ears and where our head is facing. For example when you went from matrixing the TFL and TFR to the middle of the room directly overheard it sounded different but still sounded a little forward. However if I physically looked up at the ceiling it sounded directly overhead. Same with when you went to the matrix of TRL & TRR it felt like it was behind me but was also possible hearing some reflections from the front of the room. If I physically turned my head around so I was looking backwards that sounded exactly where it was supposed to be. I think people forget our ears are not a like 360 Omni directional mic and while we can hear everything around us, how clear we perceive it depends on where our head is in relation to the sound. I would really love to hear you and the guy at Home Theater Gurus discuss this. He has been saying we need to follow the theater spec for Atmos which actually puts the overhead channels closer towards to the middle of the room. He also mentions it’s good if you want to raise your rear surrounds and rear overhead channels by like a dB or 2 so your ears hear those sounds at the same volume you hear stuff in front or on the side of you. Our ears are cupped slightly which is not ideal for clearly hearing stuff behind us.
I've been preaching the theatrical and mix room logic for some time now, and though I don't agree with HTG on raising any of the speaker levels that way because of how it affects cross-channel imaging, he's correct about his methodology on placement and aiming. The shape of our ears does affect how we hear sound... but our brain adapts to how that works over time. For instance, the occlusion of your earlobe plays a part in how we perceive that a sound is behind us... but they've found that people who have had their earlobes cut off entirely gradually adapt (faster than you'd think) to their new ear shape and can still perceive sounds that are behind them. What differs more importantly based on where we're facing is our perception of spatial resolution. We can hear more precisely in front of us than behind or over us. But the way we lay speakers out largely takes that into account already.
should the height speakers be angled down to your position or just let them point straight?
I angle mine down and toe them in like the front mains
@@TechnoDad thank you
So about the ATMOS Speakers that you placed in the corners Are these angles at listener or straight out?
I angle mine
That’s perfect so even with just a 5.2.2 the height channels are still better then in celling
I think so!
I ran 5.1(2).2 for a little bit but didn't really notice anything "special" so to speak. I switched to a 7.1(2) and enjoy it more.
Personal preference perhaps
@@mephInc I did do a 7.2 ones but my room. was just not a right fit for all the speakers it only made sense to run a 5.2.2 but one day I will run a 5.2.4 atmos system since I can only do a 5 channel speaker system in my space
Just finished listening to the demo. Here’s my setup. When i built the house, I had the builders install a 5.1 in ceiling setup (back when I didn’t know anything about proper speaker placement). 2yrs later i now have a 5.1.4 setup.
I’m utilizing the 4 in ceiling speakers as atmos.
Here’s the problem though. When watching movies with atmos mixes, the majority of the time, I can’t tell if the sound is coming from the L&R floor speakers or the L&R ceiling speakers. The same happened with the demo.
I tried to create as much separation as I could get away with but it’s still not enough to make a big difference.
Based on the demo, I could def hear the difference in where the sound was coming from all the locations which was really cool.
The only time it was a little hard to distinguish the sound was when your voice was shifting from up and down between the L&R floor and L&R ceiling speakers.
When moving from floor to ceiling, it basically sounds as if the volume was raised on the floor speaker. If I focus my hearing though, it does sound like it’s coming from the corner ceiling, but it’s very subtle.
I have taken into account that some movies/shows just have bad mixes &/or just don’t utilize the height channels as much as we would like. Especially since the majority of the content that I watch is through streaming, which is not as good as physical media.
I’m debating whether I need to raise the DB on my ceiling speakers or if I should invest in new ones like kef in ceiling speakers that have a 160 degree off axis dispersion.
I would like to send a picture of my setup to further discuss what I’m dealing with if that’s possible?
Plus, I appreciate you taking your time to helping us create & figure out the best possible experience for our homes.
Hi! Thank you for sharing, email works best for sending pics - TechnoDad55 at gmail dot com
OK so I guess my response here is going to make some noise but I have tried running your video 2 ways:
after trying 4 ceiling speakers which worked pretty bad, especially while trying to hear objects above the center channel and in the two front corners of my living room. I switched to 4 upfiring speakers (from Klipsch) and I was just blown away!! There are a lot of forums out there where different home cinema enthusiasts tell you that upfiring sucks. Well I was shocked at how accurately every object came to life during the video, much much better when using my 4 ceiling klipsch speakers. The only place where I wasn't able to hear a pinpoint location was when the object which was supposed to be above and behind me in the middle , was still above me but the reason for that is due to the fact that my couch is very close to the back wall of my living room.
I have to say that I was very skeptical that using upfiring channels will be better than the ceiling speakers but the result was so much better.
I also used your video to balance all my speakers better manually. (much better than the balance made by audessy)
I thank you very very much for the video, I have learned plenty and used it to better configure my system.
I used 5.1.4 with a Klipsch big center channel
2 canton tower front speakers
2 klipsch surround speakers
4 Klipsch upfiring speakers
1 paradigm subwoofer
my receiver is a denon avr-4400
I have vaulted ceilings. What are my options? Just directional in-wall speaker? How high can I place them?
What I can appreciate about my 3 yr old setup, is that my ceiling is low and evenly flat. My room is a perfect square that my system calibrated the height up-firing channels at an angle. It sounds like the object based sound is placed correctly...depending on the content that has been up mixed correctly.
Nice!
I doesn't mater if the speaker is in the celling or on the wall it's all about the angle from the seating position that the speaker is at. I set my ATMOS speakers up at a 55 degree angle 30 degrees apart from themselves and that made a huge difference in actually getting sounds above me, I'm using on wall speakers that are mounted to the celling with brackets angled at the listener. if anything you need a combination of speakers on the wall and above you like how DTS does their rings of sound. I tried the AURO 3D 30 degree angle with the VOG and I really did not like it their wasn't enough separation of the bed layer and heigh channels, i really couldn't hear the heigh channels with the speakers mounted like that.
I think I agree with what your saying William in regards to the angles. And as for the holes he's talking about doesn't make sense to me since the same could be said a about a person's bed layer if the speakers were spread too far apart from one another.
William I’m going to place 4 atmos speakers above the mlp at 45 degrees in all directions essentially make a square. Do you have any thoughts on that?
I’m looking to do a 5.2.4 system right now. Had a home theater installer come out today actually . Initially I wanted to do my rear speakers mounted on the wall above where our couch is against and 4 in ceiling speakers for atmos . Should I do the rear surround speakers still on the wall and then place 2 height speakers in the middle of the room LR and 2 more LR closer to the front instead of the 4 in ceiling? So basically I would have LCR normal 4 height speakers in a cube format and 2 rear surround mounted above sitting position in the back of the room.
Thanks
Thank you for creating what I consider the first ever Atmos configuration video! There isn't any material out there that help us test Dolby Atmos in our home theater systems. I run a 5.2.4 system with four Arendal 1961 height speakers. My height speakers are on the wall pointing toward the MLP. The height positions matches the 5.1.4 Dolby Atmos in ceiling specification, where the heights are not above the front lefts and rights. This video proved to me that setting the Marantz 7706 processor to configure my height speakers as Front and Rear Heights sound way better than having the processor configure them as In Ceiling. Your voice when the speakers are configured as in ceiling does not match the voice coming from the fronts. When they were configured as height speakers they matched. I also found out that limiting the Audyssey room correction to 300hz and below gives worse imaging for objects moving around than if Audyssey corrected for the full range. So now I let Audyssey correct for the whole sound range. When you speak from the front heights, the sound comes out from my front heights which are positioned closer to me which is what I expected. Again, thank you for the video!
Thank you! Glad you liked it. Something will be released on December 15th! Stay tuned!
Would 4 upfiring Atmos speakers be effective? 2 on the top front left front right speakers and 2 on the left surround right surround speakers?
I had a change to listen to just 2 upfiring speakers on the front L+R and I would definitely prefer this over having no atmos speakers at all
@@filmenmuziekaccount7669 Thanks for letting me know
Great video. I can see the “hole” left with 4 in ceiling. But what about 6 in ceiling running with a top front direct overhead top middle and top back? Many processors now do 7.x.6 or 9.x.4. Which do you prefer ?
I actually use height channels because I have a smaller room and agree it sounds more atmospheric that way compared to a buddy using 4 in ceiling speakers. So glad you agree as well.
What is very noticeable is that when I turn on the 4 upper speakers from Height to Top in the settings menu of my Yamaha RX A 2070, the voice sounds like a kind of reverb when it is centered above my head, i.e. when all 4 upper speakers are controlled simultaneously. This makes it sound diffuse from higher up. If I set this back to Height, the diffuse reverberation is gone. Somehow the Atmos algorithm in the top setting works in a way that alienates the signal, perhaps to close the gap in the distance between the floor and ceiling speakers via the diffuse reproduction
I just moved 2 days ago my dolby placed instructions to forward height like your telling in your video. And your right. Even my Sony dn 1080 sounds so much better. Even with fathom sound field. Now need to watch all my movies again. I have an angled roof and a standard 5.1 setup my aft speaker are bit above ear height. Just love the new sound setup. So much more object location in the living room.
I see what you are getting now lets flip this what if the atmos was mixed with in ceiling people in mind will it work well for those with front and rear heights
Well, as long as the sounds are moving around in the middle of the room, the in-ceiling speakers should work fine, it's when they get to their boundary and go passed it. 100% the mixing engineers are going to use all the space in the renderer that they can.
The reality is the actual XYZ position of the height sounds in Atmos get set by metadata and for the height channels the object placement doesn't get set to ever be 100% height and 100% left in the corner, it's inset to something like 60%. When you mix music in Atmos and look at the levels of an object being panned to that 100% left, 100% right position, the level meter fro the top front left speaker doesn't keep getting louder past 60%. ie it's a greatly reduced soundfield as described in this video. So you could even argue, moving ceiling speakers will improve things by getting the sound to where it should be, but Atmos isn't sending the correct amplitude to that height speaker.
@@SamHocking Thank you! If you are an audio engineer please continue with your input! I'm just a HT hobbyist, but I study all I can about it and would like to help folks set-up their system correctly - the first time. I've offered my 2 cents in posts here today. I hope I'm on the right track.
Take care.
Home Atmos IS mixed with top front/rear in mind (whether in-ceiling or on-ceiling) and this is Dolby's preferred layout per their Home Studio Certification guide. It will still work well for front/rear height between the two layers, but imaging overhead will suffer just by nature of the speakers being wider apart.
@@TheReverendSlim Thanks again. If only all of us could copy the studio lay-out in our homes. That would solve some issues.
Thanks for the great video. It was insanely helpful
Glad to hear it! Thanks for watching!
I agree with this. I find my 45 degree ceiling atmos speakers disconnected from the movie.
I have a 7.2.2
The 2 atmos speakers are angled in-ceiling and at 45 degrees.
Should I move them over the front L&R? Or replace them with on wall heights which would end up behind the front L&R since the front L&R are pulled 2-3 feet from front wall?
I suppose the obvious elephant-in-the-room question is this - What proportion of mixing studios (and cinemas) have their Atmos speakers in the corners vs the ceiling?
I have a question: Can I set my high channel front and back on my receiver as in ceiling speaker front and back ?
I'm little confused after this review, so I would like ask -> I'm planing to build 9.1 maybe 9.2 setup in my room -> 4x Dali Alteco C-1 as height speakers front and rear + 5 x Dali Fazon Mikro (as temp as I already have them) in standard 5.1 setup. Will this be good setup for Dolby Atmos experience ? as AV my plan is to get Marantz C50 or C40. Thanks in advance for comments.
Very good presentation, I wonder if the ceiling is low at 8.7 feet the 30 angle placement will be in-ceiling
When you say high channels do you mean on wall by the corner in front and back?
Yes
Thank you very much for this video, I am just getting started with Atmos and I need all the information I can get. Keep up the good work.😊
Right on! Enjoy the home theater journey
when it comes to surround side and back, what would be preferable between inwall speakers and having bookshelf or bipole as surround?
hi. thanks for another great atmos demo vid. i have a 5.1.4 setup with height speakers (not ceiling mounted) but top on the back+front walls high up, poited toward listening position. It works very well. movement from earlevel to tops works great. and diagonal move also. My setup matrixes near perfectly to include matrixed sound from top middle. obviously, lack of ceiiling speakers means top-middle (overhead) is less pronounced than say, center (which is also at higher level) for me but top front and top rear are great and atmos also creates faux-top-middle of room effects quite a bit with my heigts.
so i am happy with my setup. please keep on making these interesting videos. thanks for the hard work on these.. ps i have a pioneer vsx-lx303, 9 channel + sw avr in 5.1.4 layout.
you video made me realise i had my level for rear-height left set too low so i set the db setting a bit higher in my avr channel setup. thanks for a great and instructive video. I never realised my atmos is actually quite good at matrixing fine.
I run the exact setup with front heights above my front mains angled at 30 degrees towards the main listening area. Then have surround heights on the sides of the main listening area angled at 30 degrees towards the main listening area. Then my surrounds on my 5 ear level are angled in behind facing the main listening area. It’s amazing.
Can you use two front height speakers with two in ceiling speakers combined for Atmos?
This is really interesting, going to check this out later. My in ceilings are in a center quadrant around my front row. This makes me think about using those 4 speakers as center middle in ceilings, then adding front and rear height speakers.
Same I have but Channa said he would go side middle heights
Hi Derek and Michael…I may go on-ceiling for center height. Now that I have had time to read comments and ponder the optimal setup, I think 6 height channels are the way to go.
@@TechnoDad Cool thanks for the update!
@@TechnoDad great to read this, as it’s what I was thinking. I’m getting ready to build and with my 120” screen, centre height on the wall wasn’t going to work for me as I’ve got to mount my screen fairly close to the ceiling. I’m doing 6 heights, and was thinking of using in ceiling for the VOG TM and front height. You think this should work well? I’ve just picked up the Denon x3800H and plan on running 11 channels, with 5 at the base layer.