in all three of these winching videos you provided some good technical tips. The one thing you might want to consider, but i have not noticed you saying, is that as you add pulleys to your system you reduce the movement speed of the vehicle being pulled. This is, in most cases, actually a very good thing as it gives you more control and allows you to monitor the movement of the vehicle doing the winching more carefully as it will be moving at a much reduced rate and provides less strain on your winch. One last item it also helps you get more cable off the winch drum. The winch is actually producing its best pulling power with the least amount of cable on the winch drum.... Both of these concepts you might want to let folks know for successful winching experience...
I had not heard of this method you mentioned at the end of your comment, of using as little cable as possible to increase pulling power. I have done some googling and found documentation to support this method. I agree that it seems this is a legitimate method. I will certainly be testing this out the next time I need my winch. However I will say this for the benefit of those reading these comments, remember that you must start with a minimum of 5 wraps on the drum for all pulls. I will leave a link to the documentation that I found detailing this method for those that wish to read it. www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/99/99612522-35af-485b-84c2-8263d50898e9.pdf
yes it is a given to leave at least 5 wraps. a smart person marks their cable to know where that is. it is also very important that this 5 wraps be tight and dressed well on the drum...
Not trying to be “that guy” but the snatch-blocks are actually a force multiplier... with the set-up you’ve used that’s a 3:1 mechanical advantage. So basically the fully anchored point will (could have up to) 27,000lbs of force. The 3:1 mechanical advantage of this system trades “speed” for “strength. You will have 3x the power, but it will also move 3x slower and have to pull 3x the amount of “rope” through the pulleys to equal the same distance as a single line. Sorry, I know everybody now-days wants to correct everybody, but I’m just throwing some info out. Take it or leave it. 😁👍🏻 good video though.
I see where you are going but it would be a 2:1 the first pulley/snatch block simply changes the direction of the force and doesn’t multiply until you have connected it back to the vehicle and then back to the anchor. A good rule of thumb is not the number of lines out but the number of lines attached to the thing you are wanting to move. Imagine which way the tension is pulling on the line. It’s all about which way the direction of the tension is “pointing” and not how many snatch blocks are used.
NPC S/N 1579325 Haha. No worries just thought I’d provide a different perspective. If you find something and prove me wrong I’d be glad to hear it. 👍 and Happy New Year
You are not correct in your reply in regard to your statement about the tree seeing 27,000.. The total that the tree is seeing is exactly how he said it.
The anchor would be seeing 27000 lbs, assuming no losses through friction. Each line sees nearly the full force of the winch. 1/3 the speed for 3x force
Snatch rings are Not efficient. They create a significant addition of frictional resistance compared to a true snatch block. They work, but you cannot use the same mathematical calculations because of their inefficiencies. Better to buy a legit quality snatchblock
I have a Warn 12000lb winch on my Powerwagon and I am curious what minimum weight rating is needed for my Shackles, snatch blocks and tree saver for a single snatch block and a double. Thanks!
In my opinion you simply want to go as big but preferably bigger than what your hauling. Therefore what you need to look at is the weight of your vehicles, Gross Vehicle Mass, or if your towing a trailer your Gross Combination Mass and go preferably bigger than these values with all your gear. A 12000LB winch is a good start. Just remember that unless all your gear is rated the same you will have a weak point which will likely fail before anything else.
Thank you for the reply. The Warn M12000 is factory equipped on my truck and should be sufficient for what I plan to do with it, especially with snatch blocks etc. I was mostly curious if my snatchblocks, shackles and tree savers to be rated for 12k+ or 24k+.
There are a couple of different things that come into play here. The first step is understanding how recovery gear is rated, there are two different numbers you may see. - Minimum breaking strength (MBS) is the minimum amount of load that can be applied before failure. - Working load limit (WLL) or safe working load (SWL) is the MBS de-rated by a safety factor. For example, a MBS of 10k with a 2:1 safety factor results in a WLL of 5k. The goal is to never apply a load anywhere close to the MBS. Because each manufacturer might use a different safety factor, it is best to determine the MBS for each item so that you are making an equal comparison. You might need to calculate the MBS using the WLL times the safety factor. The next step is to determine what safety factor you want to build into your setup, it's a good idea to use at least 2:1 or 3:1. Assuming the most force your winch can generate is 12k, then you apply this safety factor to that rating to get the MBS for all items. For example, with a 3:1 safety factor you'd be looking at a required MBS of 36k or greater for all items. Things get tricky when you look at the MBS of the winch line since it is almost guaranteed to not meet your target safety factor. For example, the MBS of 3/8" Amsteel Blue rope is only 17,600lbs. This means that your winch line is the most likely thing to break, and is one reason why line dampers are so important.
simply if you use 1 snatch block on a tree the strap shackle s/block can see 24,000 lbs of pressure 12k for each line from tree, realistically max 22,000 lbs due to friction andhow many raps of line on winch. a full winch drum of a 12,000lb winch will only pull around 11,000 lbs, but one layer will be 12,000 lbs the most power.
I have a question. If the winch is rated for 10k. Thus the line being rated for it to. If you add snatch block. You double the strength of the winch ? Correct ? But the line on the winch is still 10k. Now with one snatch block you might be ok. But on a heavy pull with few snatch blocks.... could you possibly snap the line ? Again I don't know and this is just my though. Explanations would be helpful thanks.
You're doubling the total amount of force applied, but you're also doubling the amount of line being used to apply that force. The amount of force on each line stays the same, so there's no increased risk of line failure due to this configuration.
So here is A stupid question. I have asked this A dozen times and get a dozen different answers. SOOOO if I have a 10,k winch does that mean I can exceed it's rated capacity with every snatch block I use? IE: 1 line to tree 10k 2 lines to tree 20k 3 lines to tree 30 k ect.... even though my winch is max 10k line pull? I have been told yes and no and every thing in between.
Yes. It all depends on your rigging equipment. Every time you add a pulley you are technically reducing the gearing and therefore adding more power to your winching capabilities. In order for your math to be perfect you need to know the exact ratio of your snatch blocks and/or pulleys, but essentially, yes the more lines you run the more power your winch is capable due to the extra pulling capacity from the gear reducing snatch blocks/pulleys.
Use the biggest tree you can find that's usable for your needs, attach the tree saver as low as possible without catching your line or any other gear in the dirt/mud/sand etc... Be careful in wet conditions the ground around trees can become soft and allow the tree to move in some situations. Also be careful of trees with exposed roots maybe one that's on the edge of an embankment that's washed away. And of course don't use dead trees. If in doubt, attach the line, take up the slack and have someone monitor the anchor point as you tension the line. If it doesn't seem safe try another tree.
I have a question, if my truck need a 8000 lbs winch and for what ever reason you can’t install a 8000 lbs, if you use this system can i say a 4000 lbs will do the job also because it ,,double” the pulling power?
Welp I only know from tractor winches. Basically double your vehicles physical weight is considered overkill. Tractor 5k lbs. Winch is 12k. I cannot see you needing over a 4k with a double pulley snatch block setup.
2 snatch blocks gives you a total of 3 parts of line therefore you're getting 3x the pull power. So yes a 4k winch will be plenty but 3x slower. Don't forget though you'll have the possibility of putting 12k on your bumper now.
As you're shortening the distance between vehicle and anchor, you have to reposition the dampening weights, right? When you're doing that, is it safe to have the tension still on the lines, or do you need to put on the brakes and slack the line before adjusting the weights and resuming? Really appreciate you running this series, I'm learning a lot! :)
It is load reduction on the rigging, but it triples the pulling power of your winch. If you don't pull your truck out you could rip your winch off your vehicle or bend your frame or worst case tear your truck rite off it's axles I've seen it happen.
So, does that mean you are putting 9000lbs load on your vehicle? Thats serious damage force, axle snapping, spring carrier snapping force. Am I correct? please enlighten me, thanks for the video:-)
At 2:27 it shows the set up. I agree it was shown a little too quick and with the brush at the test site makes it harder to see where the winch lines are running.
Good point, I watched it again and it makes more sense. It looks like you are supposed to set up opposite sides one to a fixed point straight across the snatch block (moving line), with the other side being the fixed point across from the winch itself. I guess like a z pattern?
Why don’t you pan the camera and explain exactly how it’s set up following each rope. For people who have never done it before a more detailed explanation is required.
Sam, "For people who have never done it before." As an older female, I was never permitted to take these things in high school. Back then it was cooking and sewing for my shop projects. I have two small tractors and a curious mind. I want to understand much more about what I can accomplish with pulleys to move big rocks and fallen trees. Or lift and move 100lbs. of a miter saw from one stand to another. We don't all learn the same way. I did gain some good insight into increasing the number of pulleys. Jeff, thanks for the video!
I have a question, why does it take 27000 lbs to move a vehicle, that could be in theory moved with 9000 lbs before you add 2 extra snatch blocks to the system?
I love how you are so absolute "wrong you have..."! In fact, you are wrong. Go back and re-watch the video. He clearly states, at 0:31, that for this demonstration want to make a 9,000 pound pull. He never stated what his winch is rated for, in reality or for the demonstration. For being so absolute and judgmental, you really need to do a better job with the details.
The total force of the pull doesn't increase. If only 9000 lbs are needed to move the vehicle, the total force in the system will still only be 9000 lbs regardless of any snatch blocks you use. What is increased is the total pulling capacity. So this system would be capable of making a 27000 lb pull with a 9000 lb rated winch, but only if that much force is actually required to move the vehicle.
in all three of these winching videos you provided some good technical tips. The one thing you might want to consider, but i have not noticed you saying, is that as you add pulleys to your system you reduce the movement speed of the vehicle being pulled. This is, in most cases, actually a very good thing as it gives you more control and allows you to monitor the movement of the vehicle doing the winching more carefully as it will be moving at a much reduced rate and provides less strain on your winch. One last item it also helps you get more cable off the winch drum. The winch is actually producing its best pulling power with the least amount of cable on the winch drum.... Both of these concepts you might want to let folks know for successful winching experience...
I had not heard of this method you mentioned at the end of your comment, of using as little cable as possible to increase pulling power. I have done some googling and found documentation to support this method.
I agree that it seems this is a legitimate method. I will certainly be testing this out the next time I need my winch.
However I will say this for the benefit of those reading these comments, remember that you must start with a minimum of 5 wraps on the drum for all pulls.
I will leave a link to the documentation that I found detailing this method for those that wish to read it.
www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/99/99612522-35af-485b-84c2-8263d50898e9.pdf
yes it is a given to leave at least 5 wraps. a smart person marks their cable to know where that is. it is also very important that this 5 wraps be tight and dressed well on the drum...
amazing demo glad to have someone with great advice and willing to share tks
Good Stuff, Great Help, Good Tips 👍Thanks!
Well done video. !! You spoke slowly and clearly , a lot of guys don’t. You also stuck to topic which a lot guys don’t
as always nice job folks!! Fast, clean and concise information that helps anyone out, experienced or not!! Thanks a heap XO!!
Thanks Jeffe for another great video.
Thank you for always understandable videos
Great video!
Not trying to be “that guy” but the snatch-blocks are actually a force multiplier... with the set-up you’ve used that’s a 3:1 mechanical advantage. So basically the fully anchored point will (could have up to) 27,000lbs of force. The 3:1 mechanical advantage of this system trades “speed” for “strength. You will have 3x the power, but it will also move 3x slower and have to pull 3x the amount of “rope” through the pulleys to equal the same distance as a single line.
Sorry, I know everybody now-days wants to correct everybody, but I’m just throwing some info out. Take it or leave it. 😁👍🏻 good video though.
I see where you are going but it would be a 2:1 the first pulley/snatch block simply changes the direction of the force and doesn’t multiply until you have connected it back to the vehicle and then back to the anchor. A good rule of thumb is not the number of lines out but the number of lines attached to the thing you are wanting to move. Imagine which way the tension is pulling on the line. It’s all about which way the direction of the tension is “pointing” and not how many snatch blocks are used.
Zachary Ahlheim
Damn it... lol and here I thought I got it right... 😂🤣👍🏻 thanks for the correction.
NPC S/N 1579325 Haha. No worries just thought I’d provide a different perspective. If you find something and prove me wrong I’d be glad to hear it. 👍 and Happy New Year
@@zacharyahlheim7357 if a winch shortens 3 lines at the same time it means 3:1.
You are not correct in your reply in regard to your statement about the tree seeing 27,000.. The total that the tree is seeing is exactly how he said it.
why are you using drop/fly weights on synetic rope?
dude it was awesome to see you and clay in flagstaff saturday.
What style number of snatch block are you using?
What winch do you have set up. Looks hidden in stock bumper
By anchoring the return line of the SB to a separate solid mount. Not the vehicle with the winch. The pull factor increases approx 20%.
The anchor would be seeing 27000 lbs, assuming no losses through friction. Each line sees nearly the full force of the winch. 1/3 the speed for 3x force
Thank you for explanation.
Have you heard of snatch ring for recovery gear. I'm new to this.
Snatch rings are Not efficient. They create a significant addition of frictional resistance compared to a true snatch block. They work, but you cannot use the same mathematical calculations because of their inefficiencies. Better to buy a legit quality snatchblock
I have a Warn 12000lb winch on my Powerwagon and I am curious what minimum weight rating is needed for my Shackles, snatch blocks and tree saver for a single snatch block and a double. Thanks!
In my opinion you simply want to go as big but preferably bigger than what your hauling. Therefore what you need to look at is the weight of your vehicles, Gross Vehicle Mass, or if your towing a trailer your Gross Combination Mass and go preferably bigger than these values with all your gear. A 12000LB winch is a good start.
Just remember that unless all your gear is rated the same you will have a weak point which will likely fail before anything else.
Thank you for the reply. The Warn M12000 is factory equipped on my truck and should be sufficient for what I plan to do with it, especially with snatch blocks etc. I was mostly curious if my snatchblocks, shackles and tree savers to be rated for 12k+ or 24k+.
There are a couple of different things that come into play here. The first step is understanding how recovery gear is rated, there are two different numbers you may see.
- Minimum breaking strength (MBS) is the minimum amount of load that can be applied before failure.
- Working load limit (WLL) or safe working load (SWL) is the MBS de-rated by a safety factor. For example, a MBS of 10k with a 2:1 safety factor results in a WLL of 5k. The goal is to never apply a load anywhere close to the MBS.
Because each manufacturer might use a different safety factor, it is best to determine the MBS for each item so that you are making an equal comparison. You might need to calculate the MBS using the WLL times the safety factor.
The next step is to determine what safety factor you want to build into your setup, it's a good idea to use at least 2:1 or 3:1. Assuming the most force your winch can generate is 12k, then you apply this safety factor to that rating to get the MBS for all items. For example, with a 3:1 safety factor you'd be looking at a required MBS of 36k or greater for all items.
Things get tricky when you look at the MBS of the winch line since it is almost guaranteed to not meet your target safety factor. For example, the MBS of 3/8" Amsteel Blue rope is only 17,600lbs. This means that your winch line is the most likely thing to break, and is one reason why line dampers are so important.
simply if you use 1 snatch block on a tree the strap shackle s/block can see 24,000 lbs of pressure 12k for each line from tree, realistically max 22,000 lbs due to friction andhow many raps of line on winch. a full winch drum of a 12,000lb winch will only pull around 11,000 lbs, but one layer will be 12,000 lbs the most power.
Good info thanks
I have a question. If the winch is rated for 10k. Thus the line being rated for it to. If you add snatch block. You double the strength of the winch ? Correct ? But the line on the winch is still 10k. Now with one snatch block you might be ok. But on a heavy pull with few snatch blocks.... could you possibly snap the line ? Again I don't know and this is just my though. Explanations would be helpful thanks.
You're doubling the total amount of force applied, but you're also doubling the amount of line being used to apply that force. The amount of force on each line stays the same, so there's no increased risk of line failure due to this configuration.
are you guys based out of bozeman? I live in Lewistown Montana.
So here is A stupid question. I have asked this A dozen times and get a dozen different answers. SOOOO if I have a 10,k winch does that mean I can exceed it's rated capacity with every snatch block I use? IE: 1 line to tree 10k 2 lines to tree 20k 3 lines to tree 30 k ect.... even though my winch is max 10k line pull? I have been told yes and no and every thing in between.
Yes. It all depends on your rigging equipment. Every time you add a pulley you are technically reducing the gearing and therefore adding more power to your winching capabilities. In order for your math to be perfect you need to know the exact ratio of your snatch blocks and/or pulleys, but essentially, yes the more lines you run the more power your winch is capable due to the extra pulling capacity from the gear reducing snatch blocks/pulleys.
Any guidence on selecting a tree to use? I can just see someone using a too small tree and the tree comes flying towards the truck.
Use the biggest tree you can find that's usable for your needs, attach the tree saver as low as possible without catching your line or any other gear in the dirt/mud/sand etc...
Be careful in wet conditions the ground around trees can become soft and allow the tree to move in some situations. Also be careful of trees with exposed roots maybe one that's on the edge of an embankment that's washed away. And of course don't use dead trees.
If in doubt, attach the line, take up the slack and have someone monitor the anchor point as you tension the line. If it doesn't seem safe try another tree.
I have a question, if my truck need a 8000 lbs winch and for what ever reason you can’t install a 8000 lbs, if you use this system can i say a 4000 lbs will do the job also because it ,,double” the pulling power?
Welp I only know from tractor winches. Basically double your vehicles physical weight is considered overkill. Tractor 5k lbs. Winch is 12k. I cannot see you needing over a 4k with a double pulley snatch block setup.
2 snatch blocks gives you a total of 3 parts of line therefore you're getting 3x the pull power. So yes a 4k winch will be plenty but 3x slower. Don't forget though you'll have the possibility of putting 12k on your bumper now.
@@halphwit9527 suggest a jump starter for 1kz 3000cc diesel
Kenny, what if your too far away to have enough cable to use 1 or 2 snatch blocks? Then your back to 4000 lbs.
Dale D Get some extra chain or straps to lengthen your anchor point.
As you're shortening the distance between vehicle and anchor, you have to reposition the dampening weights, right? When you're doing that, is it safe to have the tension still on the lines, or do you need to put on the brakes and slack the line before adjusting the weights and resuming? Really appreciate you running this series, I'm learning a lot! :)
when using snatched blocks the tention is devided so it's relitivly safe. unless the winch is laboring in the pull.
Just a quick question, where are you guys going next? If I could make a suggestion go to Australia.
It is load reduction on the rigging, but it triples the pulling power of your winch. If you don't pull your truck out you could rip your winch off your vehicle or bend your frame or worst case tear your truck rite off it's axles I've seen it happen.
So, does that mean you are putting 9000lbs load on your vehicle? Thats serious damage force, axle snapping, spring carrier snapping force. Am I correct? please enlighten me, thanks for the video:-)
It can go UP TO 9K lbs, the purpose is often to lessen the load on the winch.
Can you draw a diagram of the setup for the next ones? It was a bit complicated for my simple mind. Thanks!
At 2:27 it shows the set up. I agree it was shown a little too quick and with the brush at the test site makes it harder to see where the winch lines are running.
Good point, I watched it again and it makes more sense. It looks like you are supposed to set up opposite sides one to a fixed point straight across the snatch block (moving line), with the other side being the fixed point across from the winch itself. I guess like a z pattern?
Jeff.... are you sure you aren't related to Milo Ventimiglia?
9,000lb
This is not how pullys and snatch blocks work.
Why don’t you pan the camera and explain exactly how it’s set up following each rope. For people who have never done it before a more detailed explanation is required.
Sam, "For people who have never done it before." As an older female, I was never permitted to take these things in high school. Back then it was cooking and sewing for my shop projects. I have two small tractors and a curious mind. I want to understand much more about what I can accomplish with pulleys to move big rocks and fallen trees. Or lift and move 100lbs. of a miter saw from one stand to another. We don't all learn the same way.
I did gain some good insight into increasing the number of pulleys. Jeff, thanks for the video!
wrong you have a 3 to 1 27000 lbs pull with a 9000 lbs winch this go's against everything shown on utube about snatch blocks
I have a question, why does it take 27000 lbs to move a vehicle, that could be in theory moved with 9000 lbs before you add 2 extra snatch blocks to the system?
@@SeekAdventure Yes you could move that vehicle with 9000 lbs. but he was showing double snatch block set up for demonstration purposes.
I love how you are so absolute "wrong you have..."! In fact, you are wrong. Go back and re-watch the video. He clearly states, at 0:31, that for this demonstration want to make a 9,000 pound pull. He never stated what his winch is rated for, in reality or for the demonstration. For being so absolute and judgmental, you really need to do a better job with the details.
The total force of the pull doesn't increase. If only 9000 lbs are needed to move the vehicle, the total force in the system will still only be 9000 lbs regardless of any snatch blocks you use. What is increased is the total pulling capacity. So this system would be capable of making a 27000 lb pull with a 9000 lb rated winch, but only if that much force is actually required to move the vehicle.
The background music ruined the video.
The wrong math ruined it even more. This guy failed high school physics
great explanation, but i could do without the blasting loud music
Bad location choice for demonstration purposes with the bushes interfering with the view of the rope layout.
Dude, your explanation is wrong.