I could see Aegon legitimizing Jon as a last ditch effort to stir up trouble when he’s losing. After all Jon would only come after him but before Dany.
I highly doubt faegon would legitimize Jon given his personality nor do I think he will be on the throne long enough to even do that even if he wanted to
my hot take is that Jon being Rhaegar’s son is just for character development and for prophecy’s sake. His claim to thrones will be through Rob’s will. That has much more emotional value to the story immediately after his resurrection and would be one of the few plot reasons for why the Wot5K is relevant to the invasion of Dany and the Others.
Remember, Rhaegar believed that Aegon was The Prince That Was Promised. He believed he needed three children. Three LEGITIMATE children. Setting aside Ellia and her children made no sense. Going with Targaryen polygamy makes more sense.
I disagree given that is illegal and would in no way be accepted in westsros I don't think rhagar married lyanna in a traditional since more metaphorical as a symbol of his love not something I think he intended to effect things politically.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 The Targaryens have taken multiple wives before. While that was not popular, and the Targaryens stopped doing it, there is nothing to suggest that a decision was made by the Crown to make it illegal. The is paralleled in the real world where multiple religions technically allow for polygamy, but this is socially entirely unacceptable in some places. While there is a question of whether the faith would recognize the marriage, legally speaking there is a firm precedent. Further, in the North, where Jon is and will remain for the foreseeable future, the faith of the seven holds little authority anyways. Practically speaking, opponents of Jon Snow would call him a liar and/or illegitimate regardless, and his supporters would say that it was legitimate.
@@TheZerech why do you people keep saying Targaryens when it's literally just two fucking people only maegor and aegon 1 did this and people hated it when maegor did it hense why it was never done again , it is made illegal by the faith which rhagar believed in , the crown and the faith frown on poligomy so your argument is null. There is no firm precedent only two Targaryens committed this act and a full blown war started the second time it happened , that's illrelavent the faith of the 7 is s recognized as the official religion of westsros even the north acknowledges this and even if they didn't nothing we know suggests they like poligomy ether. Ok then why even bother arguing this when you believe it won't matter regardless?
He has 3 children, and has 2 Aegons, 1 he named, other one named by the mother. So imo, the story will be around these 2 Aegons who is the one. Well, Jon fought vs the night king (ice) with dragons (fire) so, i'm guessing he's the protaganist.
@@EricGiby jons targ name being aegon is show only and is not valid because it doesn't make sense, Jon has not fought any night king or dragons in the books neither has anything to do with the song of ice and fire, asoiaf does not have a single protagonist.
I feel really bc for Ella she really laboured hard bringing two children into the world for rheagar but because he was so obsessed with prophecy he still took another wife poor girl
She truly seems like the most innocent pivotal character in the story. “Mother” of Young Griff, wife of Rhaegar, sister of Oberyn and princess of Dorne, she's massively important and yet no one ever has anything terrible to say about her.
@@Por-poII see your point but the characters motivations or reasons for doing things are more important than the actual reality of things. Jon Cons belief that he’s fighting to put Rhaegars true born son on the throne is what’s driving his plot forward. And since this dude is arguing from the point of how a character influences a the plot I think that fitting
@@Por-poI obviously I’m aware of this, but if he himself claims to be the son of Rhaegar… then she’s his mother. I’ll add quotation marks if you like. Currently FAegon is just a highly plausible theory and I’m just going off of what’s been presented to Westeros as of now.
1. Oberyn's remark was a thinly veiled allusion to the rumour. He basically goaded Tyrion by saying how he and Elia were such close siblings just like Jaime and Cersei. This is obviously not true, and they both know it, but Oberyn threw an insult without risking having his tongue cut off. 2. Henry VIII did not divorce any of his wives. Despite what the nursery rhyme says. He actually has 4 of his marriages annulled, as in the never happened. The pope refused to give him that (annulment was a thing), so he dropped the pope and gave himself one. He married Anne before his marriage situation with Catherine, which was even clarified because he believed he was single as that marriage was invalid from the start. He also annulled his marriages with Anne Boleyn, Anna of Cleves, and Catherine Howard (despite acusing 2 of them of adultery which wouldn't be possible if they weren't really married but that's Henry for you). 3. I am of the opinion that if Rhaegar and Lyanna did marry, it was a polygamy thing and by some magical means, like Valyrian rites or a Weirwood. I mean... they did disappear near Harrenhall, which is the best place to find them in the South. There is no way there was an annulment without the word spreading out. And there was no reason to mess with the succession. He didn't need 3 new children. He needed 'one more'.
But the man was obsessed with prophecy he probably saw that Elia not having any more children made her and her children useless as the dragon must have 3 heads and aegon and his sisters all had the same mother and father. So he probably would’ve sent Rhaenys to the faith the smooth over any resentment the faith might have to Rhaegar taking a new wife. And Aegon would’ve been sent to the wall to be with Maester Aemon. Then Lyanna would have to have 3 with Rhaegar which would be named Aegon Visenya and Rhaenys.
they have not been practicing polymer for a long time. Poly marriage is not an option. The dynasty is nothing but inbred they’re just a bunch of crazy people
I doubt that Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia. An annulment is different than divorce, and it basically says the marriage was never legitimate, making his two children by Elia illegitimate. If the dragon must have three heads, then Rhaegar wouldn’t want to make Rhaenys and Aegon bastards, especially since he expected Jon to be a girl. He probably just used the Valyrian tradition of polygamy.
Yup this is an element most people seem to miss. Rhaegar was looking for a "Visenya" to go with his other two children. He already thought he had the Prince that was Promised and wanted to round out three heads has the dragon, not create a prophecy baby.
Also from apractical perspective Rhaegar can't annul his marriage in book canon. The only way to legally annul a marriage in Westeros is if the High Septon does it and that is only for very good reason and usually only for uncomsumated marriages. The obly thing Rhaegar could legally do to not be married is force Elia into the faith and became a Septa or Silent Sister, which obviously didn't happen either.
does it matter if Rhaegar annulments or use polymer which hasn’t been practiced it? It has not been practiced for centuries. Both of these options seem far-fetched. Rhaegar is a fool. He managed to piss off people and he deserves to die.
@@morvran9074 The Faith of the Seven sees polygamy as a sin and does not permit it. The Targaryens used to have a free pass due to having dragons, which is no longer the case. They still have their free pass for sibling marriage though. Aenar came to Westeros with his multiple wives and there was nothing to be done about it. Then House Targaryen followed westerosi law regarding until Aegon I married both his sisters and the last Targaryen who had multiple wives at once was Maegor which caused severe issues with the Faith and they did refuse to marry them to him. GRRM on the subject said: "However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object." House Targaryen does not have dragons anymore and the Faith only let them have multiple wives 3 times, all at times they had dragons, including two who rode Balerion. They would certainly not allow Rhaegar to get more then one wive when they refused Maegor while he was king and riding Balerion.
I think Jon's parentage reveal is going to have a lot more to do with his relationship with Aegon than with Dany. First of all, Aegon is already in Westeros, and Dany's going to be arriving at the end of TWOW at the *earliest*. There's simply more time for him to build a meaningful relationship with Aegon. Plus, there's so much going on with Jon's feelings about his siblings, and specifically his "older brother" Robb. Suddenly discovering that he has a new sibling, and an older brother at that? When he's just lost Robb? That's going to be so emotional for him. Whereas discovering he has an aunt he didn't know about is just kind of... I mean, there's no resonance in that particular family relationship, based on relationships he's formed in the past, you know? And then if Aegon is crowned only to be killed, just like Robb was... Oof. What would that do to him? I think his parentage reveal will also play a huge role in the northern succession. In the show, we saw Jon become King in the North, and it seems in the books that's what Robb wanted and may have written as his wishes in his will. Another place the show dropped the ball with Jon's parentage reveal is having it mean absolutely nothing to his position as King in the North! Imagine if he is made KitN in the books, only for people to learn that he wasn't Ned's son after all, that his claim to Winterfell comes through Lyanna and not Ned. That's interesting! That's drama! And Jon has such deep northern roots and connections, it just makes sense that his parentage reveal will have more impact in the north.
I highly doubt Jon will form a relationship with faegon since it requires faegon to believe he's his brother which is unrealistic and requires faegon to be the type of person to be accepted of basterd like rob which nothing we've seen from him shows that at best faegon will most likely see Jon as a potential enemy for the throne and a threat to his claim.
Another Asoiaf king who’s a lot like Henry VIII: Bobby B himself. Both were kings who were athletic in their youth who later grew to be indulgent, fat, and yearning for the glory days of their youth. Also like Aegon IV Bobby B also had a ton of bastards even if he did stick mostly to sex workers rather than fathering great bastards and he never had any intention of legitimizing them.
You beat me to it! As a history nerd, I've always seen so many parallels between Henry VIII and Bobby B that I sort of assumed that fellow history nerd GRRM at least partly based Bobby on a Henry VIII sort of archetype. When they were young, both kings were exceptionally strong, handsome, and good fighters, though Henry fought mainly in tourneys, which he excelled in. Both were far more fond of the creature comforts of being king; mainly food, drink, women, and rich clothing and entertainments. As far as women go, Henry VIII is best known for his wives, but he also had a number of both high and lowborn mistresses, and no doubt fathered plenty of bastards of his own, though the full count is unknown. He was just as fond of lavish tourneys as Bobby B, had a Baratheon scale temper, and also left England nearly bankrupt on his death, as he was far more interested in keeping himself entertained than he was in actually ruling. (His daughter Elizabeth was far more skilled in that area.) And Henry even had a sort of "breastplate stretcher" moment: it's widely believed that a contributing factor to his death was a wound to his leg that he received jousting at an age and weight when he really shouldn't have been, which never healed and festered for a good couple of years before he died. Another interesting historical wormhole is the Sansa = Elizabeth I theory. Again, there seem to be too many parallels for a history nerd like George to have done it accidentally, but that's another comment for another day!
George has said Robert was a mix of both Henry VIII and Edward IV. Another fierce warrior, and a big dude in general who let himself go after winning the throne, and his death was a catalyst in the Wars of the Roses.
@@thing_under_the_stairs yeah, I remember hearing about Henry VIII allegedly becoming nostalgic for the Field of the Cloth of Gold tournament later in his life and I could just picture him thinking “god I was strong back then!”
@@TurquoiseStar17 That makes so much sense! Thanks for the info, I can definitely see where Edward IV fits perfectly as a partial Bobby B template too!
@@TurquoiseStar17 I’ll be honest, never heard of this guy before. He does seem like a closer parallel. However, I’m still going to maintain if we’re picking the top 5 most like Henry VIII characters from Asoiaf Bobby B still probably makes the top 3.
It may be so for a time, but I don't think that Jon will go through with it. Even after his realization that he always wanted Winterfell, he came to the conclusion that he couldn't do that and remained true to his vow towards the Nights watch and also to the Stark family.
The idea of Rhaegar converting to the faith of the drowned god and taking Lyanna as a salt wife is extremely interesting, as it could add to Jon's prophecied ham-ness of being "born amidst salt and smoke." Also, as you pointed out in the replies to that other comment, Rhaegar did die in the Trident, perhaps giving him some connection to the drowned god. Wild theory: Euron is a resurrected Rhaegar by the drowned god.
Rhaegar could've justified his two marriages as a "Faith of 7 marriage" and an "old gods marriage" as well, or some other type of distinction "marriage of duty" and "marriage of love" even.
Even if they did some Valyrian ritual and was recognized by a septon, no lord or ruler would ever accept that. It doesn't matter if Jon is legitimate or not, he's a bastard in the eyes of all the men that matter. Even if someone could prove Elia approved of a second marriage and a septon preformed the rights under a Weirwood tree. They would then have to prove Jon is actually Rhaegar's kid despite only having the stark features. The only witnesses to the birth are all dead. Howland Reed is literally the only dude in the world who could verify the birth, but he wouldn't know of the marriage since Lyanna died with only Ned in the room. Unless Lyanna explained the whole situation while dying. And where is this septon? Someone had to have witnessed the wedding, otherwise the process is pointless as the point of having a marriage is so that the faith and the realm know you're married. But again, where is this preist? Maybe it was on the isle of faces and the Greenmen will reveal it to Bran as he looks there? No matter how long i think about how Jon could be recognized as legitimate, i always end up coming back to, "but who would accept that?" A reminder that Joffrey, Tommen, and Mycella are all bastards of incest and people have solid proof of this, but because most of the realm don't believe it, they aren't considered bastards. Its this perception that i think most fans fail to consider. Sure Jon could be legitmate by all laws of the 7 kingdoms, but is he gonna fight Aegon, Tommen, Dany, and/or Stannis? Which lords would believe him, and then how many would fight for that belief? I only ask because I see so many fans saying that him being a legitimate Targaryen is somehow vitaly important to his character or the story. I personally disagree. I think Jon finding out who his true parents are is the character moment. I think Jon accepting himself as a bastard, as a stark, and as a Targaryen will be his ultimate character moment. Maybe he rides Rhaegal, but the whole point of Jon's story is to show the real threat so him suddenly becoming Mr. Game n Thrones seems overall quite odd to me
True, but suspect that quite a few people could believe Jon's a Targaryen. Jon's resurrection will change his arch in a really fundamental way beyond just changing his personality. Coming back from the dead makes you an instant magical legend. The Chosen of R'hllor being king isn't a new idea. Neither is just taking the throne by force.
Yeah. If there's no paper trail, then how is Jon ever seen as legitimate by the realm in general? And if there is any sort of paper trail, then how in hell was it successfully suppressed for close to two decades with literally nobody disclosing it? The only outcome that makes any kind of character/thematic sense to me is Jon ending the story with some kind of role in the North.
@anthroposmetron4475 I think that the Others returning is going to be such a huge shakeup of the entire continent that Jon's bastardy won't really matter. Also, I think a king Jon is shaking up a lot of customs, including bastardy. If a king can remove bastardy, then he could end the practice by royal decree. Legitimizing every bastard at once with a stroke of the pen.
I’ve always thought that Jon will not have anymore POV chapters after his resurrection, like Catelyn. I’m surprised that I haven’t seen anyone else say that before, although surely someone has.
It’s doubtful, mostly because Jon has to learn things about himself that GRRM probably wants the reader to be there for. There’s gonna be a lot of inner conflict for him in the coming books we’d lose a lot of characterization by losing him as a POV.
Depending on which way they go with young griff (let’s say he’s a blackfyre) it could be interesting if he learns about Jon. If he knows that he’s actually not rhaegars son it would be cool to see how he handles him if he treats him as a threat or he deceives Jon by being pretending to accept him. If griff does not know he’s a blackfyre it would be interesting to see him seek out Jon as he would be his supposed half brother (to potentially be by his side) and how Jon would react to this. Or he could even be mad at Jon cuz in his mind he’s the reason rhaegar left and did all the shit that lead to the rebellion.
woooo! Man, all the good minds working on these books makes me really wish for winds. At least the books we have are dense enough to keep this kind of discussion fruitful enough for at least a while longer lol.
I think Rhaegar and Lyanna did have a marriage ceremony before a heart tree, but neither the marriage nor Jon were legitimate. I think Rhaegar would have legitimised both after replacing his father as king, by way of grand council, but it does no good to speak of roads not taken. Jon has to remain a bastard if he is to prove that bastards can have honor.
Jon also has to remain illegitimate to make his character arc of becoming a leader actually matter. If he is king because he was born, his character arc will be pointless.
@@potterpal5 But Rob did make him legitimate. Though the timing will probably mean that he will have already returned from the dead by the time he knows.
Cant watch the video right now, but something I literally never hear anyone talking about is Theon's vision in Winterfell where he sees Lyanna in a white dress, wedding dress in the colours of house stark?
Martin needs to explain why Rhaegar never bothered telling the king and all the nobles that Lianna wasn’t kidnapped, and that she was with him willingly. Rhaegar must have known why the civil war began.
Really why bother wasting it that Martin wasted our time . rhaegar is a fool and a crazy obsessed with prophecy or delusional like best. He got what he deserved it a ham to his chest. He was a fool. He should’ve focused on his crazy father. If I was him, I would just take power only for myself. I would never share it. Just keep it for myself.
I agree. I'd like an eventual explanation. There could be a few possible reasons, and they don't have to be good ones as long as Rhaegar believed them to be (his reasons could be wrong). (1) Aerys and Rhaegar were on bad terms due to Aerys' paranoia. Aerys may take this new marriage as some threat to his rule; he may suspect Rhaegar's plan to fulfill a prophecy by having multiple marriages, or just that Rhaegar's polyamory is a sign that Rhaegar sess himself as the new King if he does something so bold. (2) Robert Baratheon would likely doubt any explanation other than kidnapping, true or not, so war would be inevitable. The war may play out differently, but conflict is going to happen. (3) Rhaegar may have some notion of inevitability from the prophecy that the war can't be stopped, so why try? (4) Rhaegar could see the war as an opportunity to remove Aerys now, without kinslaying on his part, and a few potential enemies like Robert and his rebels. Emboldened by prophecy, he either thinks he and/or Lyanna remain safe through the war, or that their fates do not matter, as long as their kids do. (5) Rhaegar was stupid. And I am not arguing any of these are facts, just potential motives.
I think the idea of Robb legitimizing Jon in his will is how it will play out in the books. It would be a valid legitimization to some, Robb was a king after all, but with him being a rebel king and being dead, others will disregard it entirely. It also plays well with everything that happened with Robb so far, his actions having much further reaching unintended consequences. What he thought was an attempt to shore up his own succession accidentally creates a major Targaryen succession crisis.
Appreciate the content! Goodluck in Law School. I’m in a Masters in School Counseling program myself. College sucks but it’s an accomplishment to get through!
You appear to be assuming that Rhaegar and Lyanna married, if they did marry, in Dorne. Not impossible, but there are two factors that make another possibility more interesting: - Lyanna was last seen near Harrenhal - Harrenhal is near the Isle of Faces If they married, perhaps instead of the custom of the Faith or of Old Valyria, it was the custom of the First Men, before one of the many weirwood trees the Isle has available. While the North generally respects marriages within the Faith or between the Old and the New, perhaps that's just a courtesy, and in the eyes of the Old Gods this was the only marriage that existed between them. Also you mention no claimants want to legitimise Jon, but you've forgotten a crucial exception: The Mannis himself. Stannis repeatedly offers to make him Jon Stark. This isn't very likely, but wouldn't it be funny if Stannis legitimised Jon as a Stark, but now he's legitimate it means he can press his claim on the Iron Throne?
The Doctrine of Targaryen Exceptionalism is, I think, the key to it. GRRM seemed to evolve the need for a tighter theory of Jon's legitimacy. In the early drafts of A Game of Thrones, Aegon the Conqueror had only one sister-wife. This was changed then deliberately for the final draft, I think to establish polygamy as a Targ trait when GRRM decided thematically or magically or legally, Jon needed to be legitimate. With time, the history of the Targaryen line was fleshed out, and we learned that beyond Aegon, only Maegor practiced Polygamy, and that his conflict with the faith was sufficient to end that tradition -- for the time being. After all, the sibling marriages as well were temporarily halted in deal with the faith, only for the later Doctrine of Exceptionalism to be ginned up, allowing sibling marriage to resume. Though none after practiced Polygamy, nonetheless the conflict with the Faith had been based on the two grave sins of incest and polygamy, and this new Doctrine existed for the entire purpose of arguing that Targaryens can hold to old Valyrian practices as they are born different. This surely must be the real ace in the hold that Rhaegar used, pulling on his deep knowledge of history and general life of study in many subjects, including no doubt law.
Great video as always man, I get hyped when I see a new video! The calendar has them two hanging out with a giant weirwood so maybe they did an old gods ritual or something. LmL has a video on it, definitely would recommend.
Excellent Video as always. Did you know that other Religions had Divorce before Christianity? The Christians didn't get that idea of Divorce out of nowhere they got it from the Middle East, I think from the Muslims, but all I know is that one Historian I read a Book from said that "the Heathens in the East have this custom of setting aside their Wifes whom they promised to cherish and be truthful to" or something along that lines and because Jews, Christians and Muslims all come from the Middle East who knows whom that Book was referring too. I mean most of the Stories from the Holy Texts from the Muslims, Jews and Christians are set in the Middle East and Egypt, with some Mentions of Rome, so... take your pick who that Historian meant.
Historically, divorce was always possible in Imperial China and Feudal Japan, too, and could be initiated by either partner. They were surprisingly practical about the issue.
Christianity in general always had Divorce as far as I know, but I suppose it depends on which specific denomination you're looking at, it did start to vary among them. Divorce was/is acceptable in Eastern Orthodoxy after a certain period of living together (7 years). The rules could be bent too I suppose, a notable example being Tamar of Georgia in 12th century divorcing her first husband only a couple years after their marriage.
Rhaegar gets so much undeserved love for being Jon’s father even though Jon is heroic 100% thanks to Ned. Imagine if it was someone like Roose Bolton who adopted Jon, he could have become another Ramsay.
in the Game of Thrones books, we never get to have a decent story about a serial killer how he became one and mostly told outside of the point of view. Martin is not really good at making a convincing villain. call McCarthy on the other hand is good at making a villain, a realistic, serial killer or drug addict. Game of Thrones is more like hell heroin.
The the opinion on Jon’s legitimacy shared by the surviving members of Aerys II’s Kingsguard is obvious. Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Oswell Whent, and Ser Arthur Dayne believed that Jon was the King. “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have fled with him.” “Ser Willem is a brave man and true, but not of the Kingsguard.” “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now.” “We swore a vow.” “And so it begins.” They don’t correct Ned to say that it’s King Viserys. They’re telling him that they are with the King. They believed Jon was legitimate. I think the annulment was invented by the show. I suspect it was some sort of polygamous marriage.
Ah also, there is one case I can think of in which something closer to "divorce" is seen in the books: Tyrion and Tysha. Though it's treated somewhat like annulment inasmuch as Tywin commanded it be undone, they had sworn their vows before a septon, and consummated the marriage. Under doctrine of the Faith of the Seven, their marriage could not be undone at that point.
@Swinburnean The other Aegon was dead at this point (unless you beleive Varys) so I don't see why not. It's not unusual in history to reuse a name like that.
It’s totally possible, people seem to forget that Lyanna named Jon not Rheagar and that Rheagar and his family were dead before Jon was even born. It’s totally possible she named him after his brother. On why GRRM hasn’t finished he wrote himself into a corner I bet. But if you want to be optimistic maybe he realized he needs more than 2 books to finish the series.
I think if they DID marry then it would be in front of a weirwood tree since Lyanna is a believer of the Old Gods. This could serve as a sort of "loophole" to make Jon legitimate as Rhaegar's married Elia in a sept. Keep in mind: GRRM liked how HOTD sent Laenor away rather than killing him off which means he's fine with Rhaenyra and Daemon committing bigamy as long as they got married in a Valyrian ceremony. I have a strong feeling it was done on the Isle of Faces as it's such a mysterious place that no one visits so only Bran will be able to see them saying their vows thus making Jon a Targaryen rather than a bastard which is the more popular theory at the moment.
Something I don't see a lot of people talking about during these discussions- there almost HAS to be something analogous to divorce in universe, it just doesn't happen very often. In GoT, Renly is explicitly intending for Margery to come to court, Robert to fall in love with her, and him to set Cersei aside and marry her. But at that point Renly doesn't know about the incest, so there would have to be some other mechanism for doing so. While it's possible that Renly was hoping to create a Henry VIII situation where Robert would break from the traditions of the Faith, that seems unlikely? If only because starting a war with the Faith and probably the Lannisters at the same time would be extremely dumb. The in story implications always seemed to be that either the crown or the high septon could dissolve a marriage for reasons other than those that would allow an annulment. Probably requiring specific cause (treason, for instance, or adultery, or infertility). That would probably be a very intensive process, and risky since there's a possibility of the (ex)wife's family attacking you over it, but still doable. Especially for a king. Otherwise Renly would be plotting to have Cersei murdered rather than set aside. I don't think that really applies to Rhaegar's situation though. Possibly he would have cause because of Elia's inability/unwillingness to have more children, but it would be unlikely and probably cause issues with Dorne. Personally, I've always assumed that if he didn't want his kid with Lyanna to be a bastard, he would just obtain a writ legitimizing all children she had as his before going to kidnap her or by raven after. That would track with her implied desire not to have to act like a traditional lady wife, and would make sure that any kids they had were legitimate without the Faith having room to argue. And since JonCon was Hand for awhile, he would have been able to make that writ legal without actually consulting the king. If Areys had ruled long enough to dispute it there might have been issues, but Rhaegar was already planning to usurp him so that probably wouldn't have come up first. This would also be a LOT easier to prove/justify in story than many of the other possibilities. A secret marriage, especially by a non-Faith tradition would be disputed to hell and back, especially if the witnesses were long since dead. An actual annulment by the Faith would be disputed by the Dornish. And ANYTHING that the Faith have leverage over probably would be disputed if only to avoid a 'tree worshiping heathen' on the throne. In contrast, an open ended declaration of legitimacy is something we both 1. know is legal and 2. is entirely within the power of a king (and thus a Hand if the king does not live to dispute it). There could be archived copies of the writ in multiple places which makes it more likely to be recovered, since it was before the child was born or even conceived it would apply to Jon as easily as a hypothetical Visenya, and at least one person who might have known about it is still alive (JonCon). The supplemental material required to prove Jon fits the criteria would also be less difficult, since it would probably just need to be proven that Lyanna was his mother (testimony from Howland Reed, letters from Ned, someone from Starfall, etc), rather than needing to prove she was his mother, Rhaegar was his father, AND that they were married. This would put Jon in line indisputably, without anyone having notable leverage over him (beyond the general "if we don't like you we'll hit you with our armies" leverage every king has to deal with). It also sidesteps the fact that Areys may have explicitly disinherited Rhaegar's children with Elia by naming Viserys. And it also helps justify why Aegon the Unworthy gets mentioned so much in story, it's not just foreshadowing for (f)Aegon not being a legitimate Targaryen, it could simultaneously be foreshadowing why and how Jon actually is one.
If not for the tv show, I never would have even considered annulment. I figured Rhaegar just had a second wife, because there are historical precedents of polygamy for Targaryens: Aegon I and Maegor. Thus, Jon would be a legitimate heir, just as Maegor would have been the legitimate heir of Aenys had Aenys had no sons. The Kingsguard at the ToJ seem to know of Rhaegar’s death and the death of his other two children. They stayed at the ToJ to protect their king.
I have a theory that Rhaegar just straight up evil. He might at one point obsesses with prophecy and might becomes like Aegon V who is in Dunk and Egg story and burns Summerhall supposedly to bring back dragon. Rhaegar might met Lyanna who's a Knight of Laughing Tree and found out she betrothed with Robert and decides to kidnap Lyanna. The reason I think this is because of Lyanna. I mean if she hates Robert because he's a womanizer and had many bastards, why would she goes to a married husband such as Rhaegar? The only make sense is she been kidnap, force to marry and r- by Rhaegar. Also think about it, Arthur Dayne is the best fighter in Westeros and he might not there to protect Lyanna but to keep Rhaegar safe and keep Lyanna from escape. It could be interesting parallel between Arthur Dayne and Jaime. One keep his oath and cost many lives, one broke his oath and save many lives.
@@justdirt You telling me Lyanna left Robert who's would-be terrible husband and had many bastards for someone's husband? Being kidnapped is the only logical thing. Unless she as stupid as Robb marrying Jane Westerling or Ned telling Cersei that he knew her secret.
@@justdirtI mean, the twist being that the og assumption is correct would be kinda funny in a meta sense and it’s still an impactful story. The whole of the plot takes place because the evil Rhaegar story is just that darn motivating.
@@alexiavya722having Roberts salty assumption being true is not impactful or motivating at all it's a incels wish fullfil mental which is contradicted by the story itself, also I hate when people say this lyanna didn't want to get with Robert just because he was a cheater she also didn't want to be with him because he was a terrible person who would have treated her as badly as he did cerci .
It's where you're raised,but i reckon b.rivers would have something to say about that, as he was raised in KL, according to Martin. He probs made a mistake. Love your vids, keep it up. I like the Henry VIII comparison a looooot❤️ maegor could be more alike to Ivan the Terrible, he had many lawful wives as well and... it's in his name. The dude even killed his own son😎 P. S. I've been wondering about the "just like your own bro and sis" line. But, lord, please no. P. S. S. I hope George has no sisters, as... IMAGINE Being GRRM's sister!? 😱
i think r+l will obviously happen but not the way people are fantasising about. jon will connect more with lyanna then he will with rhaegar, jon has the wolf’s blood and i imagine that’s how it will come into play not him becoming a true targaryen or whatever. so he could indeed just stay a bastard, unless legitimised by robb or something. also rhaegar probably thought he would become king shortly so jon may have been a bastard he was going to legitimise later🤔
Did I actually just watch a video where you missed out on a chance to integrate Jon-Con into the main narrative? Like theorize if he as Hand (speaking with the King's voice) was or was not able to set aside a marriage on request. Especially if he had a crush on the requester.
My hot take is Rhaegar was a Targaryen, and in the fashion of old Valyria he took Lyanna as a second wife. And never had to null his marriage with Elia. Aegon the Conqueror style 🔥
Hey Quinn, are you familiar with the channel "im deep geek"? He had a series of fantastic videos on the events leading up to robs rebellion, revolving around raegar, lyanna, the tourny at harrenhall, and ben and ned stark. It was soooo good but he has taken them down for some reason. A lot of his speculation is related to what youre talking about here
The fact Rhaegar had 2 Kingsguards one of them being the greatest swordswoman oat for his mistress and her bastard doesn’t make sense tbh, and the dialogue of Oswell whent and Arthur at the tower of joy made it seem as they were protecting their King
The strongest argument I have heard for r+l being married is that lyanna is said to have been headstrong and intelligent, and would want assurances that she wouldnt be abandonned to the judgement of her brothers (and Robert whom she hated). But given this is grrm writing, it matters not what happened but what people believe happened. Robbs will is probably a sufficiently continent justification for anyone who supports Jon's claim to the throne, presumably with the backing of a large army, and maybe a dragon for good measure.
Catholic rules for allowing the dissolution of a marriage are pretty much… whatever suits best the Catholic Church at any given moment, particularly referring to royals in medieval times. In one hand they allowed Eleanor of Aquitane to basically drop Louie VII (while she was Queen of France and mother of two daughters) to marry Henry Plantagenet, who would become Henry II thus making her Queen of England. On the other hand they denied Henry VIII attempts to annul his marriage with Catherine of Aragon for years because (in good part) of the pressure put upon the Pope by the King of Spain. So… hardly a consistent criterion. 🤷🏻♀️
3:25 huh… you know… random crazy thought but do you think Rhaegar intended Jon’s name to be Visenya? I mean Jon is clearly inspired by Paul Atreides after all
Thats the common theory. He already had Aegon and Rhaenys, thats makes 2/3 of the conqueror trio. Jon would have to be a Visenya or Viserys to keep with the naming scheme
12:15 Bloodraven does tell Bran that with time, Bran will not rely entirely on weirwoods for vision. That appears to be the main method for their greensight, but not exclusively. Jojen Reed doesn't seem to depend on weirwoods himself. And Bran is likely a special case. My guess is that Bran will have little limitation on what he can view in time or space.
I like the idea of fAegon getting the faith to recognize Targaryen rights to marry arianne without braking his betrothal to Danny there by legitimizing John
@@RussellRothman but he knows(assumes) he is the son of Ned Stark. So of course he will put in his will that he is legitimatizing the natural born son of Ned Stark whose name is Jon Snow. This storyline is stupid.
@@kushagraprasad4367 he’s not legitimating John specificity he’s upholing Targ rights to multiple spouses there by validating Rhaegar and lyanna’s marriage in the eyes of the faith of the seven making John not a bastard. Remember no one has had multiple spouses sense Maegor more than 150 years before
I think Oberyns comment is like “we are actually close, closer than twins, like real siblings” because Jaimes and Cerseis relationship isnt truly deep, it seems to be mostly Cerseis narcissism and exerting power over Jaime, theyre not actually that close
I used to have a big hang up about Rhaegar naming his kids after the conquerors in the wrong order, but I think it's because he didn't decide to do that until after the comet was seen during Aegon's conception. Though I do still think this can be used for Viserys, or some variant, being the name he would have given Jon. Not saying I love the idea, it's maybe 3rd on my list of potential Jon names.
There was a theory written out by another UA-camr, that a lot of negotiations were head between the prince, Duran, and the faith, which ended up with him being able to know the marriage, and the children being kept in the line of succession, as legitimate children are, and that theory makes a lot of sense to me. I mean it was well known that while the two were fine being married to each other Rhaegar and Eila we’re not in love, so it would not have been hard for them to easily come to the agreement after she cannot have anymore children to separate and allow him to take a different wife since they were married she definitely would’ve known about his prophecy stuff a whole lot more than some others did. Also, at the timeline it just so happened that one of the most loyal people to him was acting as handed the king as mentioned in the video so he had someone in the capital to act on the kings power and him and his wife easily could have a greed to separate, which means they only needed the high Septon. Who I believe, was corrupt that, or he just was willing to let this one through if the king was backing it It wouldn’t be surprising, considering everyone knew Aerys was not the biggest fan of the Dornish. Now I can see the possibility of a second wife being brought in all the negotiations would still have to happen, but the difference is that it’s a political nightmare, waiting to happen. Lyanna wouldn’t have wanted any power she just probably wanted to be as far away from Robert as she could but her father is well recorded as an ambitious human being. His ambition was the reason why he made all those moves leading up to the tournament at Harrenhal. I refuse to believe that he would’ve sat back with the alliance that he had built and just allowed his daughter his son to be third in line, which would have been a condition that both of Eila’s children would remain in front of any children had by Lyanna. There’s also the faith to deal with Endwell the high Septon might have been willing to accept an annulment, given all the circumstances circumstances around the marriage, I doubt he would have so easily allowed them to pull that without making a fuss. And the drowned God religion isn’t as widely excepted. Honestly, the annulment and second marriage makes the most sense because it allows Lyanna the power to say no to her father, if he starts pulling stuff. And there’s just less problems there with all the factions moving around.
A neat bit of evidence for Robb's will being justification for Jon's legitimacy is that Catlyn was worries that Jon would rebel against his half brother as Blackfyre did before him. If this were to happen, it wouldn't be Jon rebelling against Robb, it would be Jon rebelling against Aegon VI.
Or maybe, in one of her trademark brilliant moves, Cersei legitimises John to gain his suppoort toward the end of the story, and promtly they found out he is a targarien
Benioff and Weiss once said how they got the job by correctly guessing Martin's question of who Jon Snow's mother is, but I'm not accepting that as canon until it's in the book. They said a lot of things to cover for their narrative choices in the later seasons.
To my knowledge of the said quote, George never ‘confirmed’ the theory. They gave an answer and he let them take the show. That isn’t confirmation. Why would he let Dumb and Dumber reveal the biggest secret in Westeros?
@@mgp1203 probably, but it still isn’t confined in book canon. For me, R+L=J is too simple and too much of a trope for George. Showing the most honorable character in the series to also have ‘feet of clay’ fits more into his style and message. Also also “The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” If R+L=J is true, what connection does Ashara have with Jon?
Oberyn said it to provoke a reaction from Tyrion. We do know hos statement triggered Tyrion to think about the twincest, yet we do not know what his face betrayed while he thought it. Jon's lineage did influence the story a lot...if Ned did not feel the need to hide Lyannas son, he might have been at Roberts side throughout his rule
I see people hating Rhaegar, and I also judge his attitudes. But Idk, I have the impression that with the next books maybe he will be acquitted and maybe what he did makes sense
Ned’s POVs didn’t have a bad word to say about Rhaegar, the man who allegedly kidnapped and raped his sister. So Ned obviously knew the truth of the matter and 99% Rhaegar will be acquitted ahaha
@@Sam_Martyn Fr I was recently reading the first book again and yesterday one of Ned's chapters he visits a brothel with Littlefinger (before being attacked by Jaime). He thinks about what Lyanna said about Robbert, that he would never keep to one bed and he already had a bastard daughter in the Valley. The description says that for the first time in years he remembers Rhaegar (strange that someone who supposedly did so much bad to her is remembered so little), and he thinks if Rhaegar frequented brothels and somehow he thought no
Nah, Rhaegar is a bum. He left his wife and children in King’s Landing without trying to move them out of the city. He should have done that as soon as he decided to overthrow his father. Then he decided to coop up with Lyanna without telling her family “hey, I’m going to marry her. She isn’t kidnapped” which gets her brother and father killed. He then made the choice to put ARTHUR DAYNE in charge of guarding Lyanna without having anyone go to protect his family. At best, he is a dumbass that didn’t think things through and caused hundreds of people to die including his wife and children while fathering a bastard son to fulfill a prophecy. At worst, he is an insane sociopath rapist that kidnapped Lyanna to have a bastard son to fulfill a prophecy.
Jon Snow is the true born stark. Older than robb, conceived before ned married cat. He was swapped in Starfall with the true born, but second son of rhaegar, young griff.
My guess would be that Jons status remains vague or in a grey area (for example by Robb legitimising him in his will). GRRM plays around with the idea that "legitimacy" is in the eyes of the beholder. One man's one true king is another man's usurper. So thematically it would make sense if Jon's claim on the throne is more dependent of what people believe, for example that he's a better candidate than a boy king born of incest or a foreign invader, than due to the subtleties of the Westerosi legal system. I don't think GRRM would indulge his readers with an unambiguous correct answer to the question of whom has the best claim to the throne (assuming that Stannis is going to die)
Jon's trueborn status would always be a matter of contention within westeros. The mystery and status of Jon in the books is not about his parentage. Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is no longer a debate. The clues are there, enough that its been confirmed by show canon and GRRM himself. GRRM isn't one to backtrack and backflip on the clues he has carefully laid throughout the series regardless if readers jump ahead and correctly surmise Jon's true parentage. He's not going to throw in a twist for the sake of subverting expectations when it comes to major plot points.
Not sure it would be tbh if Rhaegar and Lyanna married he is legit not to mention he was likely legitmized by Robb in his will although not sure how that would play out by him not being Ned's son.
polyamory and polygamy are different. Polyamory refers to an equal arrangement where both partners develop relationships outside the primary relationship (or have multiple non-hierarchical partners). Polygamy is a hierarchical agreement where a man has multiple wives (polygeny) or a woman has multiple husbands (polyandry), but the sister-wives or brother-husbands are not allowed to pursue relationships outside the marriage.
I don't know, but something tells me marrying Lyanna was something Rhaegar had to do on the fly without thinking about the consequences (in that moment). He'd think about them later when he had the time. Maybe he had to marry Lyanna to prevent Aerys from killing/having her killed. I don't know; there's just something off about it. Nice video.
Oberyn and Elia hung out with Jamie and Cersie at Casterly Rock, when they were all children. That's probably why he felt their relationships were comparable. He was speaking on personal knowledge of the Lannister twin's report, which needn't include any knowledge of incest.
I believe you're right, they didn't bother with annulment, though judging by Margaery's choice of wedding cloak (or whatever it's called), they choose to act as if the marriage didn't happen or didn't matter much. Sansa thinks of Margaery's cloak something akin to "as Renly's widow, she could've worn the Baratheon stag, but she's chosen the Tyrell rose"
Reckon should still have 4 dragon glass arrow heads, That he got from Luin. He should be closer to 6 and a full warg mostly controlled by shaggy. Kid will rule the north as a savage wolf lord.
It certainly doesn't fit into the video's theme, but Robert is the character with the most connections to Henry VIII. There's even a abandoned plotline in AGOT where Renly wanted to make Robert marry Margaery, setting Cersei aside. Also, there is no reason for Rhaegar to annul his marriage to Elia. At that time, he did believe Aegon was the Prince that was Promissed. Besides, he's a Targaryen, he could play the polygamy card
I also always assumed, the martels were cool with the annulment under the condition that the now retroactively bastard children of Elia and Rhaegar would instantly be legitimized and still be the heirs to the iron throne.
To me, if any two characters in the entire series were going to have a poly relationship, it would be a Targaryen and someone from Dorne. I also don't think we should eliminate the idea of Rhaegar having only 1 lover either. Yes this is more head canon on my end, but Rhaegar was really close with Arthur Dayne. Also, Oberyn just being around is a lot. Openly bisexual and openly sleeping with many women does more than just show us Oberyn's character. It shows us Dorne's character, its culture. While, I'm not gonna say Elia 100% consented to an open marriage with Rhaegar, i will say if anyone would've, it would've been a dornish princess. That being said, even if they did some Valyrian ritual and was recognized by a septon, no lord or ruler would ever accept that. It doesn't matter if Jon is legitimate or not, he's a bastard in the eyes of all the men that matter.
Another thing people don't think about enough is how Jon would react to this news. Jon worships Ned and finding out he isn't his son and that he lied to him his whole life and allowed for him to be treated terribly by his wife and others for a lie will be devastating to him.
I think you’re looking at it from a Euro perspective. When it comes to divorce. In Rome and other medieval countries did have divorce. Also it looks like the first child with a wife looks like them.
It’s interesting that the Faith couldn’t rule a second Valyrian marriage between R and L illegitimate without implying the marriage between Aegon I and Rhaenys (from which all the family descended) was illegitimate
He should stay a bastard. It works better for the message of the story about Jon achieving things through his own merit despite the prejudice that people have about his birth status. Making him a chosen one will betray this value.
Thank you, this is exactly the point. He has a whole character arc about becoming a good leader which goes down the toilet if he is born a king. Unfortunately, the fandom gets furious if you suggest that Jon is not a Trueborn king or Azor Ahai/TPTWP.
One aspect of an annulment you maybe overlooking is that you can get the marriage undone because it was never a proper marriage in the first place. There could be a problem with the ceremony of the person conducting one, or even perhaps he was not free to marry. Also, pretty sure marriage gets undone if you’re sent to the wall (perhaps by the oath albeit indirectly). It seems weird it isn’t more of a thing since there are former lords and nobility are at the wall. Are you telling me the only person during the hour of the wolf were single men? All rhaegar would have to do is take the black, desert and declare his intention to become king. Then on the way back to kl pick up a winter rose, then find your homies and find a place to bunker down for a bit!
@@albdamned577 holy shit your an actual nobody, you’ve written multiple essays for this guys channel AND you go bully other commenters, like holy shit dude get a life
Even if he did annul the marriage to Elia it wouldn’t matter because annulling a consummated marriage is illegal even if he found a religious loophole to have a second wife. That part of the show was really stupid the high septon only has the authority to annul an unconsummated marriage.
There's another option that Quinn didn't touch on in this video. Rhaegar could have married Lyanna in the tradition of the old gods which was Lyanna's faith. This marriage could have taken place in the riverlands under a weirwood tree, before they headed to Dorne.
I wouldn't say that Targaryeans practiced poliamory but rather poligamy (strictly poligamy cause there are only examples of male Targaryean rulers having multiple wives and no Targaryean female having multiple husbands at the same time as it would be polyandry but dunno maybe Daenerys will break this streak) as poliamory allows for both partners to have other partners e.g. Maegor didn't allow his brides to have other man as those were HIS brides. Other than that I agree with video 100%.
Rheagar adopting the faith of the drowned god is my favourite conspiracy theory now
He did die in a body of water
Rhaegar now feasts in the drowned God’s watery halls being attended to by mermaids, what is dead my never die
What is dead may never die!
I had to chuckle with that
@@genosseunge7089 Rhaegar is patchface
I could see Aegon legitimizing Jon as a last ditch effort to stir up trouble when he’s losing. After all Jon would only come after him but before Dany.
Interesting idea,but I don't think jon would accept that
@@notdeadjustyet8136 he wouldn’t but nonetheless it would be able to cause a rift into a potential alliance with Dany
I highly doubt faegon would legitimize Jon given his personality nor do I think he will be on the throne long enough to even do that even if he wanted to
Neither jon or aegon are ahead of dany
@@Aydan2108 exactly faegon is a blackfaire and Jon as far as westaros is concerned is a basterd so Dany is the only true Targaryen hier .
my hot take is that Jon being Rhaegar’s son is just for character development and for prophecy’s sake. His claim to thrones will be through Rob’s will. That has much more emotional value to the story immediately after his resurrection and would be one of the few plot reasons for why the Wot5K is relevant to the invasion of Dany and the Others.
I aggre the rhagar reveal is more of a character twist and will effect him personally more then it effects the plot politically.
W TAKE
But what if he doesn't want it?
@@PiscatorLager 😟 who are you? D&D?
@@onesimwhich is nothing but a stupid king arthur vomit fantasy
Remember, Rhaegar believed that Aegon was The Prince That Was Promised. He believed he needed three children. Three LEGITIMATE children. Setting aside Ellia and her children made no sense. Going with Targaryen polygamy makes more sense.
I disagree given that is illegal and would in no way be accepted in westsros I don't think rhagar married lyanna in a traditional since more metaphorical as a symbol of his love not something I think he intended to effect things politically.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 The Targaryens have taken multiple wives before. While that was not popular, and the Targaryens stopped doing it, there is nothing to suggest that a decision was made by the Crown to make it illegal. The is paralleled in the real world where multiple religions technically allow for polygamy, but this is socially entirely unacceptable in some places.
While there is a question of whether the faith would recognize the marriage, legally speaking there is a firm precedent. Further, in the North, where Jon is and will remain for the foreseeable future, the faith of the seven holds little authority anyways.
Practically speaking, opponents of Jon Snow would call him a liar and/or illegitimate regardless, and his supporters would say that it was legitimate.
@@TheZerech why do you people keep saying Targaryens when it's literally just two fucking people only maegor and aegon 1 did this and people hated it when maegor did it hense why it was never done again , it is made illegal by the faith which rhagar believed in , the crown and the faith frown on poligomy so your argument is null.
There is no firm precedent only two Targaryens committed this act and a full blown war started the second time it happened , that's illrelavent the faith of the 7 is s recognized as the official religion of westsros even the north acknowledges this and even if they didn't nothing we know suggests they like poligomy ether.
Ok then why even bother arguing this when you believe it won't matter regardless?
He has 3 children, and has 2 Aegons, 1 he named, other one named by the mother. So imo, the story will be around these 2 Aegons who is the one. Well, Jon fought vs the night king (ice) with dragons (fire) so, i'm guessing he's the protaganist.
@@EricGiby jons targ name being aegon is show only and is not valid because it doesn't make sense, Jon has not fought any night king or dragons in the books neither has anything to do with the song of ice and fire, asoiaf does not have a single protagonist.
I feel really bc for Ella she really laboured hard bringing two children into the world for rheagar but because he was so obsessed with prophecy he still took another wife poor girl
She truly seems like the most innocent pivotal character in the story. “Mother” of Young Griff, wife of Rhaegar, sister of Oberyn and princess of Dorne, she's massively important and yet no one ever has anything terrible to say about her.
@@elijahalbiston"mother". Come on, nothing about Young Griff's parentage is confirmed yet. To state like it is confirmed is just skipping clues.
@@elijahalbiston
she was just an innocent girl who got screwed over by everyone
@@Por-poII see your point but the characters motivations or reasons for doing things are more important than the actual reality of things. Jon Cons belief that he’s fighting to put Rhaegars true born son on the throne is what’s driving his plot forward. And since this dude is arguing from the point of how a character influences a the plot I think that fitting
@@Por-poI obviously I’m aware of this, but if he himself claims to be the son of Rhaegar… then she’s his mother. I’ll add quotation marks if you like.
Currently FAegon is just a highly plausible theory and I’m just going off of what’s been presented to Westeros as of now.
1. Oberyn's remark was a thinly veiled allusion to the rumour. He basically goaded Tyrion by saying how he and Elia were such close siblings just like Jaime and Cersei. This is obviously not true, and they both know it, but Oberyn threw an insult without risking having his tongue cut off.
2. Henry VIII did not divorce any of his wives. Despite what the nursery rhyme says. He actually has 4 of his marriages annulled, as in the never happened. The pope refused to give him that (annulment was a thing), so he dropped the pope and gave himself one. He married Anne before his marriage situation with Catherine, which was even clarified because he believed he was single as that marriage was invalid from the start. He also annulled his marriages with Anne Boleyn, Anna of Cleves, and Catherine Howard (despite acusing 2 of them of adultery which wouldn't be possible if they weren't really married but that's Henry for you).
3. I am of the opinion that if Rhaegar and Lyanna did marry, it was a polygamy thing and by some magical means, like Valyrian rites or a Weirwood. I mean... they did disappear near Harrenhall, which is the best place to find them in the South. There is no way there was an annulment without the word spreading out. And there was no reason to mess with the succession. He didn't need 3 new children. He needed 'one more'.
But the man was obsessed with prophecy he probably saw that Elia not having any more children made her and her children useless as the dragon must have 3 heads and aegon and his sisters all had the same mother and father. So he probably would’ve sent Rhaenys to the faith the smooth over any resentment the faith might have to Rhaegar taking a new wife. And Aegon would’ve been sent to the wall to be with Maester Aemon. Then Lyanna would have to have 3 with Rhaegar which would be named Aegon Visenya and Rhaenys.
they have not been practicing polymer for a long time. Poly marriage is not an option.
The dynasty is nothing but inbred they’re just a bunch of crazy people
I doubt that Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia. An annulment is different than divorce, and it basically says the marriage was never legitimate, making his two children by Elia illegitimate. If the dragon must have three heads, then Rhaegar wouldn’t want to make Rhaenys and Aegon bastards, especially since he expected Jon to be a girl. He probably just used the Valyrian tradition of polygamy.
Yup this is an element most people seem to miss. Rhaegar was looking for a "Visenya" to go with his other two children. He already thought he had the Prince that was Promised and wanted to round out three heads has the dragon, not create a prophecy baby.
Also from apractical perspective Rhaegar can't annul his marriage in book canon. The only way to legally annul a marriage in Westeros is if the High Septon does it and that is only for very good reason and usually only for uncomsumated marriages.
The obly thing Rhaegar could legally do to not be married is force Elia into the faith and became a Septa or Silent Sister, which obviously didn't happen either.
does it matter if Rhaegar annulments or use polymer which hasn’t been practiced it? It has not been practiced for centuries.
Both of these options seem far-fetched. Rhaegar is a fool. He managed to piss off people and he deserves to die.
@@TemariNaraannaschatzFaith of Seven allowed Aegon to have 2 wives so ya know. There is some precedence here
@@morvran9074 The Faith of the Seven sees polygamy as a sin and does not permit it. The Targaryens used to have a free pass due to having dragons, which is no longer the case. They still have their free pass for sibling marriage though.
Aenar came to Westeros with his multiple wives and there was nothing to be done about it. Then House Targaryen followed westerosi law regarding until Aegon I married both his sisters and the last Targaryen who had multiple wives at once was Maegor which caused severe issues with the Faith and they did refuse to marry them to him.
GRRM on the subject said:
"However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object."
House Targaryen does not have dragons anymore and the Faith only let them have multiple wives 3 times, all at times they had dragons, including two who rode Balerion.
They would certainly not allow Rhaegar to get more then one wive when they refused Maegor while he was king and riding Balerion.
I think Jon's parentage reveal is going to have a lot more to do with his relationship with Aegon than with Dany. First of all, Aegon is already in Westeros, and Dany's going to be arriving at the end of TWOW at the *earliest*. There's simply more time for him to build a meaningful relationship with Aegon. Plus, there's so much going on with Jon's feelings about his siblings, and specifically his "older brother" Robb. Suddenly discovering that he has a new sibling, and an older brother at that? When he's just lost Robb? That's going to be so emotional for him. Whereas discovering he has an aunt he didn't know about is just kind of... I mean, there's no resonance in that particular family relationship, based on relationships he's formed in the past, you know?
And then if Aegon is crowned only to be killed, just like Robb was... Oof. What would that do to him?
I think his parentage reveal will also play a huge role in the northern succession. In the show, we saw Jon become King in the North, and it seems in the books that's what Robb wanted and may have written as his wishes in his will. Another place the show dropped the ball with Jon's parentage reveal is having it mean absolutely nothing to his position as King in the North! Imagine if he is made KitN in the books, only for people to learn that he wasn't Ned's son after all, that his claim to Winterfell comes through Lyanna and not Ned. That's interesting! That's drama! And Jon has such deep northern roots and connections, it just makes sense that his parentage reveal will have more impact in the north.
I highly doubt Jon will form a relationship with faegon since it requires faegon to believe he's his brother which is unrealistic and requires faegon to be the type of person to be accepted of basterd like rob which nothing we've seen from him shows that at best faegon will most likely see Jon as a potential enemy for the throne and a threat to his claim.
Another Asoiaf king who’s a lot like Henry VIII: Bobby B himself. Both were kings who were athletic in their youth who later grew to be indulgent, fat, and yearning for the glory days of their youth. Also like Aegon IV Bobby B also had a ton of bastards even if he did stick mostly to sex workers rather than fathering great bastards and he never had any intention of legitimizing them.
You beat me to it! As a history nerd, I've always seen so many parallels between Henry VIII and Bobby B that I sort of assumed that fellow history nerd GRRM at least partly based Bobby on a Henry VIII sort of archetype. When they were young, both kings were exceptionally strong, handsome, and good fighters, though Henry fought mainly in tourneys, which he excelled in. Both were far more fond of the creature comforts of being king; mainly food, drink, women, and rich clothing and entertainments. As far as women go, Henry VIII is best known for his wives, but he also had a number of both high and lowborn mistresses, and no doubt fathered plenty of bastards of his own, though the full count is unknown. He was just as fond of lavish tourneys as Bobby B, had a Baratheon scale temper, and also left England nearly bankrupt on his death, as he was far more interested in keeping himself entertained than he was in actually ruling. (His daughter Elizabeth was far more skilled in that area.) And Henry even had a sort of "breastplate stretcher" moment: it's widely believed that a contributing factor to his death was a wound to his leg that he received jousting at an age and weight when he really shouldn't have been, which never healed and festered for a good couple of years before he died.
Another interesting historical wormhole is the Sansa = Elizabeth I theory. Again, there seem to be too many parallels for a history nerd like George to have done it accidentally, but that's another comment for another day!
George has said Robert was a mix of both Henry VIII and Edward IV.
Another fierce warrior, and a big dude in general who let himself go after winning the throne, and his death was a catalyst in the Wars of the Roses.
@@thing_under_the_stairs yeah, I remember hearing about Henry VIII allegedly becoming nostalgic for the Field of the Cloth of Gold tournament later in his life and I could just picture him thinking “god I was strong back then!”
@@TurquoiseStar17 That makes so much sense! Thanks for the info, I can definitely see where Edward IV fits perfectly as a partial Bobby B template too!
@@TurquoiseStar17 I’ll be honest, never heard of this guy before. He does seem like a closer parallel. However, I’m still going to maintain if we’re picking the top 5 most like Henry VIII characters from Asoiaf Bobby B still probably makes the top 3.
Imagine rhaegar just left some post it note that just said
"Bro's legit"
And I guarantee that just as Book Jon always wanted Winterfell, Book Jon will actually want the Iron Throne.
And he can't have it
"I don't want it!", "She's ma queen!" 😜
It may be so for a time, but I don't think that Jon will go through with it. Even after his realization that he always wanted Winterfell, he came to the conclusion that he couldn't do that and remained true to his vow towards the Nights watch and also to the Stark family.
The idea of Rhaegar converting to the faith of the drowned god and taking Lyanna as a salt wife is extremely interesting, as it could add to Jon's prophecied ham-ness of being "born amidst salt and smoke."
Also, as you pointed out in the replies to that other comment, Rhaegar did die in the Trident, perhaps giving him some connection to the drowned god.
Wild theory: Euron is a resurrected Rhaegar by the drowned god.
Waiting for the Euron/Vader parallel moment: "I am your father"
Rhaegar could've justified his two marriages as a "Faith of 7 marriage" and an "old gods marriage" as well, or some other type of distinction "marriage of duty" and "marriage of love" even.
Euron was born well before Rhaegar's death.
@@tinahs8269 bro what?
You will have an easier time reaching the moon than that
The very insinuation of OberynxElia sent shivers down my spine
Thumbnail goes hard lol
That’s a wild thumbnail my guy
Even if they did some Valyrian ritual and was recognized by a septon, no lord or ruler would ever accept that. It doesn't matter if Jon is legitimate or not, he's a bastard in the eyes of all the men that matter.
Even if someone could prove Elia approved of a second marriage and a septon preformed the rights under a Weirwood tree. They would then have to prove Jon is actually Rhaegar's kid despite only having the stark features. The only witnesses to the birth are all dead.
Howland Reed is literally the only dude in the world who could verify the birth, but he wouldn't know of the marriage since Lyanna died with only Ned in the room. Unless Lyanna explained the whole situation while dying. And where is this septon? Someone had to have witnessed the wedding, otherwise the process is pointless as the point of having a marriage is so that the faith and the realm know you're married. But again, where is this preist? Maybe it was on the isle of faces and the Greenmen will reveal it to Bran as he looks there?
No matter how long i think about how Jon could be recognized as legitimate, i always end up coming back to, "but who would accept that?"
A reminder that Joffrey, Tommen, and Mycella are all bastards of incest and people have solid proof of this, but because most of the realm don't believe it, they aren't considered bastards.
Its this perception that i think most fans fail to consider. Sure Jon could be legitmate by all laws of the 7 kingdoms, but is he gonna fight Aegon, Tommen, Dany, and/or Stannis? Which lords would believe him, and then how many would fight for that belief?
I only ask because I see so many fans saying that him being a legitimate Targaryen is somehow vitaly important to his character or the story. I personally disagree.
I think Jon finding out who his true parents are is the character moment. I think Jon accepting himself as a bastard, as a stark, and as a Targaryen will be his ultimate character moment. Maybe he rides Rhaegal, but the whole point of Jon's story is to show the real threat so him suddenly becoming Mr. Game n Thrones seems overall quite odd to me
True, but suspect that quite a few people could believe Jon's a Targaryen. Jon's resurrection will change his arch in a really fundamental way beyond just changing his personality.
Coming back from the dead makes you an instant magical legend. The Chosen of R'hllor being king isn't a new idea. Neither is just taking the throne by force.
Yeah. If there's no paper trail, then how is Jon ever seen as legitimate by the realm in general? And if there is any sort of paper trail, then how in hell was it successfully suppressed for close to two decades with literally nobody disclosing it?
The only outcome that makes any kind of character/thematic sense to me is Jon ending the story with some kind of role in the North.
@anthroposmetron4475 I think that the Others returning is going to be such a huge shakeup of the entire continent that Jon's bastardy won't really matter. Also, I think a king Jon is shaking up a lot of customs, including bastardy. If a king can remove bastardy, then he could end the practice by royal decree. Legitimizing every bastard at once with a stroke of the pen.
@@anthroposmetron4475 Besides Rob legitimatized Jon in his will.
Whoever wants to accept it will. Whoever's interest lies in a legitimatized Jon Snow will argue it is. Power resides where people believe it.
I’ve always thought that Jon will not have anymore POV chapters after his resurrection, like Catelyn.
I’m surprised that I haven’t seen anyone else say that before, although surely someone has.
I've had the same thought, I'll probably make it a video someday
@@QuinnTheGM it makes sense. Also a good way for George to make room in the books. Jon usually takes up a decent chunk of pages.
It’s doubtful, mostly because Jon has to learn things about himself that GRRM probably wants the reader to be there for. There’s gonna be a lot of inner conflict for him in the coming books we’d lose a lot of characterization by losing him as a POV.
Aegon IV was my thought for a parallel for Henry VIII but forgot about Maegor
Yeah the six wives makes it pretty direct
Depending on which way they go with young griff (let’s say he’s a blackfyre) it could be interesting if he learns about Jon. If he knows that he’s actually not rhaegars son it would be cool to see how he handles him if he treats him as a threat or he deceives Jon by being pretending to accept him. If griff does not know he’s a blackfyre it would be interesting to see him seek out Jon as he would be his supposed half brother (to potentially be by his side) and how Jon would react to this. Or he could even be mad at Jon cuz in his mind he’s the reason rhaegar left and did all the shit that lead to the rebellion.
anyways stan elia martell
How fortuitous! A Quinn video! My day just improved! Thanks Quinn!
woooo! Man, all the good minds working on these books makes me really wish for winds. At least the books we have are dense enough to keep this kind of discussion fruitful enough for at least a while longer lol.
I think Rhaegar and Lyanna did have a marriage ceremony before a heart tree, but neither the marriage nor Jon were legitimate. I think Rhaegar would have legitimised both after replacing his father as king, by way of grand council, but it does no good to speak of roads not taken. Jon has to remain a bastard if he is to prove that bastards can have honor.
@@three-eyedmonkey7344 Jon's already been legitimized by Rob.
@@MrJero85as a Stark not a Targ
Jon also has to remain illegitimate to make his character arc of becoming a leader actually matter. If he is king because he was born, his character arc will be pointless.
@@potterpal5 But Rob did make him legitimate. Though the timing will probably mean that he will have already returned from the dead by the time he knows.
@@MrJero85 Robb’s will and Stannis’ offer are more cases of roads not taken.
Cant watch the video right now, but something I literally never hear anyone talking about is Theon's vision in Winterfell where he sees Lyanna in a white dress, wedding dress in the colours of house stark?
Martin needs to explain why Rhaegar never bothered telling the king and all the nobles that Lianna wasn’t kidnapped, and that she was with him willingly. Rhaegar must have known why the civil war began.
Really why bother wasting it that Martin wasted our time . rhaegar is a fool and a crazy obsessed with prophecy or delusional like best. He got what he deserved it a ham to his chest. He was a fool. He should’ve focused on his crazy father. If I was him, I would just take power only for myself. I would never share it. Just keep it for myself.
I agree. I'd like an eventual explanation.
There could be a few possible reasons, and they don't have to be good ones as long as Rhaegar believed them to be (his reasons could be wrong).
(1) Aerys and Rhaegar were on bad terms due to Aerys' paranoia. Aerys may take this new marriage as some threat to his rule; he may suspect Rhaegar's plan to fulfill a prophecy by having multiple marriages, or just that Rhaegar's polyamory is a sign that Rhaegar sess himself as the new King if he does something so bold.
(2) Robert Baratheon would likely doubt any explanation other than kidnapping, true or not, so war would be inevitable. The war may play out differently, but conflict is going to happen.
(3) Rhaegar may have some notion of inevitability from the prophecy that the war can't be stopped, so why try?
(4) Rhaegar could see the war as an opportunity to remove Aerys now, without kinslaying on his part, and a few potential enemies like Robert and his rebels. Emboldened by prophecy, he either thinks he and/or Lyanna remain safe through the war, or that their fates do not matter, as long as their kids do.
(5) Rhaegar was stupid.
And I am not arguing any of these are facts, just potential motives.
@@licmir3663 Game of Thrones was more like a heroin hero, now it’s a bad habit
Babe wake up, new Quinn The GM video dropped
I think the idea of Robb legitimizing Jon in his will is how it will play out in the books. It would be a valid legitimization to some, Robb was a king after all, but with him being a rebel king and being dead, others will disregard it entirely. It also plays well with everything that happened with Robb so far, his actions having much further reaching unintended consequences. What he thought was an attempt to shore up his own succession accidentally creates a major Targaryen succession crisis.
Appreciate the content! Goodluck in Law School. I’m in a Masters in School Counseling program myself. College sucks but it’s an accomplishment to get through!
You appear to be assuming that Rhaegar and Lyanna married, if they did marry, in Dorne. Not impossible, but there are two factors that make another possibility more interesting:
- Lyanna was last seen near Harrenhal
- Harrenhal is near the Isle of Faces
If they married, perhaps instead of the custom of the Faith or of Old Valyria, it was the custom of the First Men, before one of the many weirwood trees the Isle has available. While the North generally respects marriages within the Faith or between the Old and the New, perhaps that's just a courtesy, and in the eyes of the Old Gods this was the only marriage that existed between them.
Also you mention no claimants want to legitimise Jon, but you've forgotten a crucial exception: The Mannis himself. Stannis repeatedly offers to make him Jon Stark. This isn't very likely, but wouldn't it be funny if Stannis legitimised Jon as a Stark, but now he's legitimate it means he can press his claim on the Iron Throne?
The Doctrine of Targaryen Exceptionalism is, I think, the key to it. GRRM seemed to evolve the need for a tighter theory of Jon's legitimacy. In the early drafts of A Game of Thrones, Aegon the Conqueror had only one sister-wife. This was changed then deliberately for the final draft, I think to establish polygamy as a Targ trait when GRRM decided thematically or magically or legally, Jon needed to be legitimate.
With time, the history of the Targaryen line was fleshed out, and we learned that beyond Aegon, only Maegor practiced Polygamy, and that his conflict with the faith was sufficient to end that tradition -- for the time being. After all, the sibling marriages as well were temporarily halted in deal with the faith, only for the later Doctrine of Exceptionalism to be ginned up, allowing sibling marriage to resume. Though none after practiced Polygamy, nonetheless the conflict with the Faith had been based on the two grave sins of incest and polygamy, and this new Doctrine existed for the entire purpose of arguing that Targaryens can hold to old Valyrian practices as they are born different. This surely must be the real ace in the hold that Rhaegar used, pulling on his deep knowledge of history and general life of study in many subjects, including no doubt law.
Great video as always man, I get hyped when I see a new video! The calendar has them two hanging out with a giant weirwood so maybe they did an old gods ritual or something. LmL has a video on it, definitely would recommend.
Loved the research pause in the middle of the video 😂
Excellent Video as always. Did you know that other Religions had Divorce before Christianity? The Christians didn't get that idea of Divorce out of nowhere they got it from the Middle East, I think from the Muslims, but all I know is that one Historian I read a Book from said that "the Heathens in the East have this custom of setting aside their Wifes whom they promised to cherish and be truthful to" or something along that lines and because Jews, Christians and Muslims all come from the Middle East who knows whom that Book was referring too. I mean most of the Stories from the Holy Texts from the Muslims, Jews and Christians are set in the Middle East and Egypt, with some Mentions of Rome, so... take your pick who that Historian meant.
Historically, divorce was always possible in Imperial China and Feudal Japan, too, and could be initiated by either partner. They were surprisingly practical about the issue.
Jews can divorce. Muslims weren't a thing when the Bible was written and compiled.
Christianity in general always had Divorce as far as I know, but I suppose it depends on which specific denomination you're looking at, it did start to vary among them. Divorce was/is acceptable in Eastern Orthodoxy after a certain period of living together (7 years). The rules could be bent too I suppose, a notable example being Tamar of Georgia in 12th century divorcing her first husband only a couple years after their marriage.
Who is the Henry VIII of Westeros is sucha fun idea! Great video as usual ❤
Always a great vid man. Keep em coming!
Rhaegar gets so much undeserved love for being Jon’s father even though Jon is heroic 100% thanks to Ned.
Imagine if it was someone like Roose Bolton who adopted Jon, he could have become another Ramsay.
in the Game of Thrones books, we never get to have a decent story about a serial killer how he became one and mostly told outside of the point of view. Martin is not really good at making a convincing villain. call McCarthy on the other hand is good at making a villain, a realistic, serial killer or drug addict. Game of Thrones is more like hell heroin.
The the opinion on Jon’s legitimacy shared by the surviving members of Aerys II’s Kingsguard is obvious. Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Oswell Whent, and Ser Arthur Dayne believed that Jon was the King.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have fled with him.”
“Ser Willem is a brave man and true, but not of the Kingsguard.” “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now.” “We swore a vow.” “And so it begins.”
They don’t correct Ned to say that it’s King Viserys. They’re telling him that they are with the King. They believed Jon was legitimate.
I think the annulment was invented by the show. I suspect it was some sort of polygamous marriage.
I haven’t read dance yet but I love how much you love Jon Con lmao
Ah also, there is one case I can think of in which something closer to "divorce" is seen in the books: Tyrion and Tysha. Though it's treated somewhat like annulment inasmuch as Tywin commanded it be undone, they had sworn their vows before a septon, and consummated the marriage. Under doctrine of the Faith of the Seven, their marriage could not be undone at that point.
"Slightly important"
He's not wrong
If the annulment and secret marriage thing is true, especially if Jon's real name is fucking AEGON, I would rather Martin left the series unfinished.
i bet Jon's targ name is Aemon
The annullment Aegon seems to be show only. Aemon and polygamy is at least very plausible. I would say polygamy is certain.
@Swinburnean The other Aegon was dead at this point (unless you beleive Varys) so I don't see why not. It's not unusual in history to reuse a name like that.
@@kuman0110 His Targaryen name should be a masculine version of Visenya, like "Visenyael" or something like that.
It’s totally possible, people seem to forget that Lyanna named Jon not Rheagar and that Rheagar and his family were dead before Jon was even born.
It’s totally possible she named him after his brother.
On why GRRM hasn’t finished he wrote himself into a corner I bet. But if you want to be optimistic maybe he realized he needs more than 2 books to finish the series.
I think if they DID marry then it would be in front of a weirwood tree since Lyanna is a believer of the Old Gods. This could serve as a sort of "loophole" to make Jon legitimate as Rhaegar's married Elia in a sept. Keep in mind: GRRM liked how HOTD sent Laenor away rather than killing him off which means he's fine with Rhaenyra and Daemon committing bigamy as long as they got married in a Valyrian ceremony. I have a strong feeling it was done on the Isle of Faces as it's such a mysterious place that no one visits so only Bran will be able to see them saying their vows thus making Jon a Targaryen rather than a bastard which is the more popular theory at the moment.
Justice for Jon!
(Connington) 🦅
Something I don't see a lot of people talking about during these discussions- there almost HAS to be something analogous to divorce in universe, it just doesn't happen very often.
In GoT, Renly is explicitly intending for Margery to come to court, Robert to fall in love with her, and him to set Cersei aside and marry her. But at that point Renly doesn't know about the incest, so there would have to be some other mechanism for doing so.
While it's possible that Renly was hoping to create a Henry VIII situation where Robert would break from the traditions of the Faith, that seems unlikely? If only because starting a war with the Faith and probably the Lannisters at the same time would be extremely dumb.
The in story implications always seemed to be that either the crown or the high septon could dissolve a marriage for reasons other than those that would allow an annulment. Probably requiring specific cause (treason, for instance, or adultery, or infertility). That would probably be a very intensive process, and risky since there's a possibility of the (ex)wife's family attacking you over it, but still doable. Especially for a king. Otherwise Renly would be plotting to have Cersei murdered rather than set aside.
I don't think that really applies to Rhaegar's situation though. Possibly he would have cause because of Elia's inability/unwillingness to have more children, but it would be unlikely and probably cause issues with Dorne. Personally, I've always assumed that if he didn't want his kid with Lyanna to be a bastard, he would just obtain a writ legitimizing all children she had as his before going to kidnap her or by raven after. That would track with her implied desire not to have to act like a traditional lady wife, and would make sure that any kids they had were legitimate without the Faith having room to argue. And since JonCon was Hand for awhile, he would have been able to make that writ legal without actually consulting the king. If Areys had ruled long enough to dispute it there might have been issues, but Rhaegar was already planning to usurp him so that probably wouldn't have come up first.
This would also be a LOT easier to prove/justify in story than many of the other possibilities. A secret marriage, especially by a non-Faith tradition would be disputed to hell and back, especially if the witnesses were long since dead. An actual annulment by the Faith would be disputed by the Dornish. And ANYTHING that the Faith have leverage over probably would be disputed if only to avoid a 'tree worshiping heathen' on the throne.
In contrast, an open ended declaration of legitimacy is something we both 1. know is legal and 2. is entirely within the power of a king (and thus a Hand if the king does not live to dispute it). There could be archived copies of the writ in multiple places which makes it more likely to be recovered, since it was before the child was born or even conceived it would apply to Jon as easily as a hypothetical Visenya, and at least one person who might have known about it is still alive (JonCon). The supplemental material required to prove Jon fits the criteria would also be less difficult, since it would probably just need to be proven that Lyanna was his mother (testimony from Howland Reed, letters from Ned, someone from Starfall, etc), rather than needing to prove she was his mother, Rhaegar was his father, AND that they were married.
This would put Jon in line indisputably, without anyone having notable leverage over him (beyond the general "if we don't like you we'll hit you with our armies" leverage every king has to deal with). It also sidesteps the fact that Areys may have explicitly disinherited Rhaegar's children with Elia by naming Viserys. And it also helps justify why Aegon the Unworthy gets mentioned so much in story, it's not just foreshadowing for (f)Aegon not being a legitimate Targaryen, it could simultaneously be foreshadowing why and how Jon actually is one.
Thank you, Rhaegar should've named his first daughter Visenya
If not for the tv show, I never would have even considered annulment. I figured Rhaegar just had a second wife, because there are historical precedents of polygamy for Targaryens: Aegon I and Maegor.
Thus, Jon would be a legitimate heir, just as Maegor would have been the legitimate heir of Aenys had Aenys had no sons.
The Kingsguard at the ToJ seem to know of Rhaegar’s death and the death of his other two children. They stayed at the ToJ to protect their king.
Truly, Oberyn is such a goat. He, with one line, inspired a video
I have a theory that Rhaegar just straight up evil. He might at one point obsesses with prophecy and might becomes like Aegon V who is in Dunk and Egg story and burns Summerhall supposedly to bring back dragon. Rhaegar might met Lyanna who's a Knight of Laughing Tree and found out she betrothed with Robert and decides to kidnap Lyanna.
The reason I think this is because of Lyanna. I mean if she hates Robert because he's a womanizer and had many bastards, why would she goes to a married husband such as Rhaegar? The only make sense is she been kidnap, force to marry and r- by Rhaegar. Also think about it, Arthur Dayne is the best fighter in Westeros and he might not there to protect Lyanna but to keep Rhaegar safe and keep Lyanna from escape. It could be interesting parallel between Arthur Dayne and Jaime. One keep his oath and cost many lives, one broke his oath and save many lives.
So, you just believe what Robert believed
@@justdirt You telling me Lyanna left Robert who's would-be terrible husband and had many bastards for someone's husband? Being kidnapped is the only logical thing. Unless she as stupid as Robb marrying Jane Westerling or Ned telling Cersei that he knew her secret.
@@justdirtI mean, the twist being that the og assumption is correct would be kinda funny in a meta sense and it’s still an impactful story. The whole of the plot takes place because the evil Rhaegar story is just that darn motivating.
@@alexiavya722having Roberts salty assumption being true is not impactful or motivating at all it's a incels wish fullfil mental which is contradicted by the story itself, also I hate when people say this lyanna didn't want to get with Robert just because he was a cheater she also didn't want to be with him because he was a terrible person who would have treated her as badly as he did cerci .
I don’t think that’s likely l. We’ve been in Ned Starks head and he never thinks anything negative about rhaegar when he thinks about lyanna.
Once again Howland Reed is the key to all of this.
Robs letter is gonna go hard
It's where you're raised,but i reckon b.rivers would have something to say about that, as he was raised in KL, according to Martin. He probs made a mistake.
Love your vids, keep it up. I like the Henry VIII comparison a looooot❤️ maegor could be more alike to Ivan the Terrible, he had many lawful wives as well and... it's in his name. The dude even killed his own son😎
P. S. I've been wondering about the "just like your own bro and sis" line. But, lord, please no.
P. S. S. I hope George has no sisters, as... IMAGINE Being GRRM's sister!? 😱
4:30 Specifically, Oberon is talking about coming...
...and demanding justice.
i think r+l will obviously happen but not the way people are fantasising about. jon will connect more with lyanna then he will with rhaegar, jon has the wolf’s blood and i imagine that’s how it will come into play not him becoming a true targaryen or whatever. so he could indeed just stay a bastard, unless legitimised by robb or something.
also rhaegar probably thought he would become king shortly so jon may have been a bastard he was going to legitimise later🤔
Did I actually just watch a video where you missed out on a chance to integrate Jon-Con into the main narrative? Like theorize if he as Hand (speaking with the King's voice) was or was not able to set aside a marriage on request. Especially if he had a crush on the requester.
My hot take is Rhaegar was a Targaryen, and in the fashion of old Valyria he took Lyanna as a second wife. And never had to null his marriage with Elia. Aegon the Conqueror style 🔥
"My second fave pv named Jon'' 😭😍😂 lol
Hey Quinn, are you familiar with the channel "im deep geek"? He had a series of fantastic videos on the events leading up to robs rebellion, revolving around raegar, lyanna, the tourny at harrenhall, and ben and ned stark. It was soooo good but he has taken them down for some reason. A lot of his speculation is related to what youre talking about here
The fact Rhaegar had 2 Kingsguards one of them being the greatest swordswoman oat for his mistress and her bastard doesn’t make sense tbh, and the dialogue of Oswell whent and Arthur at the tower of joy made it seem as they were protecting their King
I love Jon snow!
Is this a political post?😀
Yes, it's pro Jon propaganda, don't be fooled, green child@@robertweber401
It’s a simple fan girl. It’s kinda like a drug addict.
The strongest argument I have heard for r+l being married is that lyanna is said to have been headstrong and intelligent, and would want assurances that she wouldnt be abandonned to the judgement of her brothers (and Robert whom she hated).
But given this is grrm writing, it matters not what happened but what people believe happened. Robbs will is probably a sufficiently continent justification for anyone who supports Jon's claim to the throne, presumably with the backing of a large army, and maybe a dragon for good measure.
Catholic rules for allowing the dissolution of a marriage are pretty much… whatever suits best the Catholic Church at any given moment, particularly referring to royals in medieval times.
In one hand they allowed Eleanor of Aquitane to basically drop Louie VII (while she was Queen of France and mother of two daughters) to marry Henry Plantagenet, who would become Henry II thus making her Queen of England. On the other hand they denied Henry VIII attempts to annul his marriage with Catherine of Aragon for years because (in good part) of the pressure put upon the Pope by the King of Spain.
So… hardly a consistent criterion. 🤷🏻♀️
3:25 huh… you know… random crazy thought but do you think Rhaegar intended Jon’s name to be Visenya? I mean Jon is clearly inspired by Paul Atreides after all
Thats the common theory. He already had Aegon and Rhaenys, thats makes 2/3 of the conqueror trio. Jon would have to be a Visenya or Viserys to keep with the naming scheme
12:15 Bloodraven does tell Bran that with time, Bran will not rely entirely on weirwoods for vision. That appears to be the main method for their greensight, but not exclusively. Jojen Reed doesn't seem to depend on weirwoods himself. And Bran is likely a special case. My guess is that Bran will have little limitation on what he can view in time or space.
I like the idea of fAegon getting the faith to recognize Targaryen rights to marry arianne without braking his betrothal to Danny there by legitimizing John
Which would put Jon in the line for the throne and thereby put a contest for the throne with fAegon.
@@kushagraprasad4367 it idea is he doesn’t know John is a Targaryen so he creates a claimant unknowingly
@@RussellRothman but he knows(assumes) he is the son of Ned Stark. So of course he will put in his will that he is legitimatizing the natural born son of Ned Stark whose name is Jon Snow. This storyline is stupid.
@@kushagraprasad4367 he’s not legitimating John specificity he’s upholing Targ rights to multiple spouses there by validating Rhaegar and lyanna’s marriage in the eyes of the faith of the seven making John not a bastard. Remember no one has had multiple spouses sense Maegor more than 150 years before
😂😂😂 because he can't children @@RussellRothman
I think Oberyns comment is like “we are actually close, closer than twins, like real siblings” because Jaimes and Cerseis relationship isnt truly deep, it seems to be mostly Cerseis narcissism and exerting power over Jaime, theyre not actually that close
Love your analysis! How are you doing this all while in law school? I’m a 3L and can barely survive!
I used to have a big hang up about Rhaegar naming his kids after the conquerors in the wrong order, but I think it's because he didn't decide to do that until after the comet was seen during Aegon's conception.
Though I do still think this can be used for Viserys, or some variant, being the name he would have given Jon. Not saying I love the idea, it's maybe 3rd on my list of potential Jon names.
There was a theory written out by another UA-camr, that a lot of negotiations were head between the prince, Duran, and the faith, which ended up with him being able to know the marriage, and the children being kept in the line of succession, as legitimate children are, and that theory makes a lot of sense to me.
I mean it was well known that while the two were fine being married to each other Rhaegar and Eila we’re not in love, so it would not have been hard for them to easily come to the agreement after she cannot have anymore children to separate and allow him to take a different wife since they were married she definitely would’ve known about his prophecy stuff a whole lot more than some others did. Also, at the timeline it just so happened that one of the most loyal people to him was acting as handed the king as mentioned in the video so he had someone in the capital to act on the kings power and him and his wife easily could have a greed to separate, which means they only needed the high Septon. Who I believe, was corrupt that, or he just was willing to let this one through if the king was backing it It wouldn’t be surprising, considering everyone knew Aerys was not the biggest fan of the Dornish.
Now I can see the possibility of a second wife being brought in all the negotiations would still have to happen, but the difference is that it’s a political nightmare, waiting to happen. Lyanna wouldn’t have wanted any power she just probably wanted to be as far away from Robert as she could but her father is well recorded as an ambitious human being. His ambition was the reason why he made all those moves leading up to the tournament at Harrenhal. I refuse to believe that he would’ve sat back with the alliance that he had built and just allowed his daughter his son to be third in line, which would have been a condition that both of Eila’s children would remain in front of any children had by Lyanna. There’s also the faith to deal with Endwell the high Septon might have been willing to accept an annulment, given all the circumstances circumstances around the marriage, I doubt he would have so easily allowed them to pull that without making a fuss. And the drowned God religion isn’t as widely excepted. Honestly, the annulment and second marriage makes the most sense because it allows Lyanna the power to say no to her father, if he starts pulling stuff. And there’s just less problems there with all the factions moving around.
A neat bit of evidence for Robb's will being justification for Jon's legitimacy is that Catlyn was worries that Jon would rebel against his half brother as Blackfyre did before him.
If this were to happen, it wouldn't be Jon rebelling against Robb, it would be Jon rebelling against Aegon VI.
Or maybe, in one of her trademark brilliant moves, Cersei legitimises John to gain his suppoort toward the end of the story, and promtly they found out he is a targarien
love the vids
My thought is that Jon is seen as Rhaegar’s legitimised bastard via Robb’s will, a transference of legitimacy of sorts
Benioff and Weiss once said how they got the job by correctly guessing Martin's question of who Jon Snow's mother is, but I'm not accepting that as canon until it's in the book.
They said a lot of things to cover for their narrative choices in the later seasons.
As I recall, Martin said the same thing on one of the late shows. I think it was Jimmy Fallon.
To my knowledge of the said quote, George never ‘confirmed’ the theory. They gave an answer and he let them take the show. That isn’t confirmation. Why would he let Dumb and Dumber reveal the biggest secret in Westeros?
@@silasreade because he probably expected to finish the books by that point?
@@mgp1203 probably, but it still isn’t confined in book canon. For me, R+L=J is too simple and too much of a trope for George.
Showing the most honorable character in the series to also have ‘feet of clay’ fits more into his style and message.
Also also “The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.”
If R+L=J is true, what connection does Ashara have with Jon?
Oberyn said it to provoke a reaction from Tyrion. We do know hos statement triggered Tyrion to think about the twincest, yet we do not know what his face betrayed while he thought it.
Jon's lineage did influence the story a lot...if Ned did not feel the need to hide Lyannas son, he might have been at Roberts side throughout his rule
I see people hating Rhaegar, and I also judge his attitudes. But Idk, I have the impression that with the next books maybe he will be acquitted and maybe what he did makes sense
Ned’s POVs didn’t have a bad word to say about Rhaegar, the man who allegedly kidnapped and raped his sister. So Ned obviously knew the truth of the matter and 99% Rhaegar will be acquitted ahaha
@@Sam_Martyn Fr I was recently reading the first book again and yesterday one of Ned's chapters he visits a brothel with Littlefinger (before being attacked by Jaime). He thinks about what Lyanna said about Robbert, that he would never keep to one bed and he already had a bastard daughter in the Valley. The description says that for the first time in years he remembers Rhaegar (strange that someone who supposedly did so much bad to her is remembered so little), and he thinks if Rhaegar frequented brothels and somehow he thought no
Nah, Rhaegar is a bum.
He left his wife and children in King’s Landing without trying to move them out of the city. He should have done that as soon as he decided to overthrow his father.
Then he decided to coop up with Lyanna without telling her family “hey, I’m going to marry her. She isn’t kidnapped” which gets her brother and father killed.
He then made the choice to put ARTHUR DAYNE in charge of guarding Lyanna without having anyone go to protect his family.
At best, he is a dumbass that didn’t think things through and caused hundreds of people to die including his wife and children while fathering a bastard son to fulfill a prophecy. At worst, he is an insane sociopath rapist that kidnapped Lyanna to have a bastard son to fulfill a prophecy.
Jon Snow is the true born stark. Older than robb, conceived before ned married cat. He was swapped in Starfall with the true born, but second son of rhaegar, young griff.
My guess would be that Jons status remains vague or in a grey area (for example by Robb legitimising him in his will). GRRM plays around with the idea that "legitimacy" is in the eyes of the beholder. One man's one true king is another man's usurper. So thematically it would make sense if Jon's claim on the throne is more dependent of what people believe, for example that he's a better candidate than a boy king born of incest or a foreign invader, than due to the subtleties of the Westerosi legal system. I don't think GRRM would indulge his readers with an unambiguous correct answer to the question of whom has the best claim to the throne (assuming that Stannis is going to die)
Ugh...family law. One of my least favorite areas of practice.
Jon's trueborn status would always be a matter of contention within westeros. The mystery and status of Jon in the books is not about his parentage. Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is no longer a debate. The clues are there, enough that its been confirmed by show canon and GRRM himself. GRRM isn't one to backtrack and backflip on the clues he has carefully laid throughout the series regardless if readers jump ahead and correctly surmise Jon's true parentage. He's not going to throw in a twist for the sake of subverting expectations when it comes to major plot points.
Not sure it would be tbh if Rhaegar and Lyanna married he is legit not to mention he was likely legitmized by Robb in his will although not sure how that would play out by him not being Ned's son.
polyamory and polygamy are different. Polyamory refers to an equal arrangement where both partners develop relationships outside the primary relationship (or have multiple non-hierarchical partners). Polygamy is a hierarchical agreement where a man has multiple wives (polygeny) or a woman has multiple husbands (polyandry), but the sister-wives or brother-husbands are not allowed to pursue relationships outside the marriage.
Came here to say this.
I would argue that Rhaegar is actually very similar to a young Henry VIII. Handsome, poetic, charismatic and a good fighter.
Idea for a video: Is Bran' s statement that " Robert' rebellion was built on a lie" accurate?
I don't know, but something tells me marrying Lyanna was something Rhaegar had to do on the fly without thinking about the consequences (in that moment). He'd think about them later when he had the time. Maybe he had to marry Lyanna to prevent Aerys from killing/having her killed. I don't know; there's just something off about it. Nice video.
Oberyn and Elia hung out with Jamie and Cersie at Casterly Rock, when they were all children. That's probably why he felt their relationships were comparable. He was speaking on personal knowledge of the Lannister twin's report, which needn't include any knowledge of incest.
Was the marriage between Margaery and Renly really get annulled or was just stated it wasn’t consummated after it ended with the death of Renly?
I believe you're right, they didn't bother with annulment, though judging by Margaery's choice of wedding cloak (or whatever it's called), they choose to act as if the marriage didn't happen or didn't matter much. Sansa thinks of Margaery's cloak something akin to "as Renly's widow, she could've worn the Baratheon stag, but she's chosen the Tyrell rose"
I like the theory that he’s Ned’s and asharas
Reckon should still have 4 dragon glass arrow heads, That he got from Luin. He should be closer to 6 and a full warg mostly controlled by shaggy. Kid will rule the north as a savage wolf lord.
It certainly doesn't fit into the video's theme, but Robert is the character with the most connections to Henry VIII. There's even a abandoned plotline in AGOT where Renly wanted to make Robert marry Margaery, setting Cersei aside.
Also, there is no reason for Rhaegar to annul his marriage to Elia. At that time, he did believe Aegon was the Prince that was Promissed. Besides, he's a Targaryen, he could play the polygamy card
I also always assumed, the martels were cool with the annulment under the condition that the now retroactively bastard children of Elia and Rhaegar would instantly be legitimized and still be the heirs to the iron throne.
To me, if any two characters in the entire series were going to have a poly relationship, it would be a Targaryen and someone from Dorne. I also don't think we should eliminate the idea of Rhaegar having only 1 lover either. Yes this is more head canon on my end, but Rhaegar was really close with Arthur Dayne.
Also, Oberyn just being around is a lot. Openly bisexual and openly sleeping with many women does more than just show us Oberyn's character. It shows us Dorne's character, its culture.
While, I'm not gonna say Elia 100% consented to an open marriage with Rhaegar, i will say if anyone would've, it would've been a dornish princess.
That being said, even if they did some Valyrian ritual and was recognized by a septon, no lord or ruler would ever accept that. It doesn't matter if Jon is legitimate or not, he's a bastard in the eyes of all the men that matter.
Another thing people don't think about enough is how Jon would react to this news. Jon worships Ned and finding out he isn't his son and that he lied to him his whole life and allowed for him to be treated terribly by his wife and others for a lie will be devastating to him.
I think you’re looking at it from a Euro perspective. When it comes to divorce. In Rome and other medieval countries did have divorce. Also it looks like the first child with a wife looks like them.
It’s interesting that the Faith couldn’t rule a second Valyrian marriage between R and L illegitimate without implying the marriage between Aegon I and Rhaenys (from which all the family descended) was illegitimate
He should stay a bastard. It works better for the message of the story about Jon achieving things through his own merit despite the prejudice that people have about his birth status. Making him a chosen one will betray this value.
Thank you, this is exactly the point. He has a whole character arc about becoming a good leader which goes down the toilet if he is born a king. Unfortunately, the fandom gets furious if you suggest that Jon is not a Trueborn king or Azor Ahai/TPTWP.
Martin just uses King Artinian because he just wanted us to go with his hypocrisy bull crap
One aspect of an annulment you maybe overlooking is that you can get the marriage undone because it was never a proper marriage in the first place. There could be a problem with the ceremony of the person conducting one, or even perhaps he was not free to marry.
Also, pretty sure marriage gets undone if you’re sent to the wall (perhaps by the oath albeit indirectly). It seems weird it isn’t more of a thing since there are former lords and nobility are at the wall. Are you telling me the only person during the hour of the wolf were single men?
All rhaegar would have to do is take the black, desert and declare his intention to become king. Then on the way back to kl pick up a winter rose, then find your homies and find a place to bunker down for a bit!
@@albdamned577 holy shit your an actual nobody, you’ve written multiple essays for this guys channel AND you go bully other commenters, like holy shit dude get a life
Even if he did annul the marriage to Elia it wouldn’t matter because annulling a consummated marriage is illegal even if he found a religious loophole to have a second wife. That part of the show was really stupid the high septon only has the authority to annul an unconsummated marriage.
I personally love the rob legitimized Jon in his will theory. I mean only northern sympathizers would support it but still
There's another option that Quinn didn't touch on in this video. Rhaegar could have married Lyanna in the tradition of the old gods which was Lyanna's faith. This marriage could have taken place in the riverlands under a weirwood tree, before they headed to Dorne.
I wouldn't say that Targaryeans practiced poliamory but rather poligamy (strictly poligamy cause there are only examples of male Targaryean rulers having multiple wives and no Targaryean female having multiple husbands at the same time as it would be polyandry but dunno maybe Daenerys will break this streak) as poliamory allows for both partners to have other partners e.g. Maegor didn't allow his brides to have other man as those were HIS brides. Other than that I agree with video 100%.
I think most kids in the series take after there mothers, starks, lannisters, arryns, reeds