Didn't have the crunchy roast onion dripping with gravy scene either. All us book fans knew the show was going to be awful after we didn't see Ben chow down on that gravylicious onion.
I personally think season 7, episode 6, "Beyond the Wall," was the worst episode of Game of Thrones. It was just nonsense from beginning to end, with plotholes so big that Balerion the Black Dread could do the Thriller dance inside them.
Beyond the wall was insultingly bad, because at that point, there still existed a hope that GOT could be amazing. By The Bells, I legitimately laughed my ass off
I think a good support for this theory is a comment Jon Con made in Dance. He has like a mini flashback where he's telling his men even Tywin Lannister couldn't have found Robert in the Battle of the Bells. His man replies that Tywin would have found him, specifically by burning the town down and finding his bones after. A potential trigger instead of Aegon dying is these bells get sounded and a combination of that and Jon Con's greyscale could mentally put him back at that battle and convinces him that to win he has to burn the city down or he'll fail again.
Imagine if Cersei's wildfire under the sept also blows up a large part of the city, and then Jon Con uses wildfire to burn the city, and then Dany burns the city with her dragons. 💀
George loves ambiguous events. I think it would be a very interesting ending if Cersei plants more wildfire, Connington goes a bit mad, and Dany attacks the gates and the golden company (led by Aegon) and kills him. Then we may see the city blow up, and people draw their own conclusions of who did it. Jon concludes Dany did it.
8:08 It would be really funny in a sad way of Aegon’s story was 100% true. He really was Daenerys’ nephew and the true heir to the throne. He is the “Mummer’s Dragon” but in a hyperliteral way. He is the Dragon that the Mummer, Varys, supported. And Daenerys’ suspicion and reliance on prophecy ended up destroying her family. Edit: To be clear, I’m 95% sure Aegon is a Blackfyre, or at least not a true Targaryen. I just think it would be equally interesting and weighty for the story if his tale was true.
I agree with this sentiment, it has a much better sense of tragedy to it. And the interpretation of the Mummer's Dragon you put forward here is something I have often felt like the text is actually saying and that many people overlook it.
@@DanyelAzamor-lh7yg Why though? Varys is easily resourceful enough to have whisked baby Aegon out of the Red Keep. It makes for a more compelling story if Aegon is the real deal, and would be more significant for the involvement of the entire Dornish storyline. Thematically it's far more interesting if Aegon really is the son of Rhaegar and Ellia, and creates a very interesting dynamic with Jon and Dany.
I think it’s perfectly setup that we will never figure out the truth of the question, making both interpretations just as important and relevant. Adding another layer of tragedy that we’ll never know which cruelty was the reality the characters faced.
@@princeprocrastinate6485Too many holes in Varys’s story, not a lot makes sense. That’s why it’s such a prevalent theory, which I also believe. I don’t think GRRM would add this “perfect prince” character with a better claim than Dany and the same heritage as Jon so late into the story and have them be exactly who they say they are. He seems like another character who is stealing the identity of the main characters, like fake Arya and Rorge being the Hound. Hidden or false identity is a prolific thing in Feast and Dance now that I think about it.
Agree, that storyline was not only extremely nonsensical, but also changed the whole tone of the story in comparison to the books in favor of disturbing male-gaze fanfiction.
The Iron Throne is my least favourite episode. Yes the Bells has many, many problems: Dany deciding to burn a city despite saying for 2 seasons she didn’t want to be the Queen of Ash and Bone then deciding to do it because she heard some damn Bells, those same bells being ones of surrender despite being established in Freaking Blackwater (Goated Episode) to never mean surrender and worst of all massacring Jaime Lannister’s character arc. Nonetheless I’d argue Iron Throne is worse, Dany going full Germany 1940’s, Tyrion massacring one of the best lines in the franchise, Jon debating if killing a tyrant who just nuked a city was a bad thing, Jon somehow not getting killed by Drogon, the Unsullied and Dothraki, Bronn actually becoming not only Lord of Highgarden, not only Lord Paramount of the Mander but the freaking Master of Coin despite not knowing how debt works. Then there’s the freaking ripoff Kingsmoot, Iron Islands independence just getting forgotten, a new Prince of Dorne, couldn’t even give us Arianne, no one suggesting Gendry the last living son of the uncontested king. But I could I live with that, all of it, if not for Bran becoming King, I don’t care if it’s GRRM approved it’s the dumbest thing in the episode and in my opinion all of GOT. He’s a creepy tree wizard, emotionless robot who cannot produce heirs which in a feudal world is a big no no, he doesn’t follow the Faith, he mind jacked Hodor which is considered the worst crime a Skinchanger can do by the Free Folk, he’s been missing and presumed dead for 5 years, he has no claim on the Iron Throne at all yet he becomes King because he has the ‘best story’. Motherfucker there’s at least 5 people there with a better story than Bran. Finally how something ends is extremely important, you fuck that up, the entire series can be ruined for people, and this is how 8 years of storytelling ends.
I like the idea of Jon Connington realizing that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son, and that being the inciting incident that has him setting off the wildfire caches under Kings Landing. Finding out that he rebuilt his life on a lie...
I remember someone on UA-cam likening “The Bells” as a train crashing and honestly, I’m glad I’ve never seen a train crash cause I feel it’s pretty apt
I cannot for the life of me find the video- it might have been InDeepGeek, Alt Shift X, or even an earlier video from Quinn the GM idk- but there is a video out there breaking-down how much truth there really is to Targaryen madness, and the creator made an excellent point: when a Targaryen goes nuts, it exacerbates their already-existing personality traits, it doesn't cause them to go from a fundamentally good person to a mass-murdering maniac. Daenerys more than anything is defined by her messiah complex; she has suffered and seen other people suffering terribly, so she wants to save/protect everyone. Therefore, if she were to snap and go mad, it would likely be more in that vein, ex. recklessly putting herself in danger to try to save others. Basically the complete opposite of what happens in the show (we should NEVER forgive D&D for what they did)
She has pretty much always been a mass murdering maniac. Who she protects and when has also always been super erratic, and her reaction to usually saving people too late or in a way they dont want is just to be delusional about it. It goes way deeper than a messiah complex, she is repeatedly just detached from reality completely.
With the book, I believe you are correct it will be Jon Con burning it. When Danny tries for the throne, Aegon will flee and the city will be burned by wildfire. We need to see the Sparrows warfare against Danny for her dragons and against the red priests. They should be an ever constant annoying force just like the the brotherhood without banners.
@@Deafulttressady It’s that bad because the Night King shouldn’t be killed in the first place. The story is “A Song of Ice and Fire” that human, despite their petty difference, must band together to fight the existential threat. Arya killing the Night King means that doesn’t matter and the show regress back to being just “Game of Thrones” which is about petty squabbles for self-interest all over again. Cersei’s choice of selfishly sitting out the whole Long Night conflict was proven to be right instead of wrong. It’s a horrible message overall.
She had a monopoly on violence, backed up with the Mountain’s blade. And everyone was just exhausted. Plus - there was no time to have another power struggle with the Kettleblacks or whoever.
The whole Baratheon thing barely matters to anybody outside of stannis. They aren't the Targs with this long respected lineage and clear line of succession. The lannisters came in after robert,changed all the royal heraldry to better match theirs, and then Cersei was functionally in charge for a long time. It is easy to see why people would just default to her.
My big head canon about the endgame that I haven't seen anyone talk about yet is that I think Bronn will ally with Young Griff to secure his claim on Castle Stokeworth and he will kill Tommen on orders of Jon Connington during the Sack of King's Landing. Mirroring the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon, Young Griff will be in a difficult position, but unlike Bobby B, Aegon will not let the murderers off scot free, and he will actually execute Bronn and JonCon for crimes committed during the Sack. (Also, JonCon's warcrimes will be triggered by the bells of the great sept).
I worry that ideas and speculation videos from our stalwart content creators over the years will ultimately end up being more interesting than anything George conjurs up. Love the idea of Jon Con going mad finding out about Faegon. Great work as ever Quinn
It is notable that JonCon thinks to himself that Tywin would have burnt the town down to find Robert, could that be foreshadowing for this? Perhaps he snaps and thinks he’s looking for Robert again
0:42 The note didn't specify that Bran would be king of Westeros (minus The North). It detailed who would sit in the Iron Throne. And said throne was destroyed before they elected Bran as king.
Well reasoned theory. I wonder if both options could be true. Jon Con hears the claims that Griff is a pretender, refuses to believe it and Aegon tries to prove his legitimately by taming one of Dany's other dragons, with about as much success as Quentin: killing Aegon and causing Jon Con to snap
Beyond the Wall 7x6 is the worst episode of game of thrones BY FAAAAAAAAARRRRR. Season 8 were bad as they were wholly unfulfilling, and character motivations made no sense. Season 7x6 had these problems AND the very fabric of reality and physics just don't exist anymore.
Later series of GoT remind me of the Chanel Suit episode of The Simpsons. They started off with a perfect garment and in the end they had a badly mangled Chanel Suit
If the last season switched the order around so Cersei was dealt with first and then face the Night King it instantly would have worked miles better. Even if the final goal was to make Dany go full “Hitler” for the oppressed could have had the toll of the wars biting her and hostilities etc. Ultimately the biggest problem is Dany going wild on King’s Landing and unless you removed it that end point was always going to be poor conclusion.
In my current interpretation of the series, something analogous to the bells will definitely happen. It just makes thematic sense for George to parallel the scouring of the shire from LOTR. The idea that, while The Others may have been defeated, evil has not been vanquished from Westeros and still exists in the hearts of men.
One thing (a lot of relevance if true) I’ll add to your video is that if you go through Dragon Demands UA-cam channel. He has a lot of stuff from behind the scenes and stuff he found from BTS pieces of GoT and stuff the crew etc involved say. From his fragments it sounded like one variant they had was the city would accidentally explode in wild fire when Dany dragon fires the city in the battle and accidentally hit the stashes of dragon fire . So a complete accident.
I‘d say the last four episodes of GoT all are of equal quality (with that quality being in the negative area of the scale). Of the four I think the long night sticks out the worst as until that episode you at least had hope the season might be good. After that you just felt nothing and watched the thing going down in flames
The long night has to be the worst episode. I can't concieve of any reality where winterfell isn't burnt to the ground by the white walkers. Instead we got the lord of the rings style fairy tale where the walkers magically die around all our heros. The episode destroyed my suspension of disbelief to the point where the episodes succeeding it doesn't even matter.
I honestly think it would make for a better story if Aegon is who he claims to be. Thematically it would make the Dornish plotline and the Martells even more relevant, and would make for an interesting conundrum if Dany does come to blows with the real heir, someone who does have a better claim than her and may even be better shaped to rule. I also don't think it's outlandish for Varys to have saved Aegon and I don't see why he would lie about that to Kevan who is literally dying in the ADWD epilogue. We may never know Aegon's true heritage anyway, but still I just don't find the Blackfyre angle nearly as interesting.
“You can have more time, there’s just no time, you could have five more seasons and more episodes in a season? I’m sorry, there’s just absolutely no time.”
I think Kings Landing is destined to be destroyed at the end of the story and Bran may end up ruling from the Isle of Faces. Also, I think Daenerys will die during The Long Night, so the conflict with Aegon should happen before that.
One thing that Victarion/Euron riding dragons theory that I think people kinda forgets to question themselves is: what is the reason for Dragonbinder to exist? We generally believe the valyrians made it, with all their hallmarks (blood magic, sacrifice, high valyrian runes). If that's true, then why did they make a horn like this? We all know they conquered half of Essos with the power of dragons and broke the mighty of Ghys, and they certainly know about it. If anyone can just toot this horn and bring watever dragon under their control, then that's like Palpatine building the Death Star and putting giant illuminating signs to show where the exhaust port is. If the horn IS intended to bend a dragon to one's will, then it must be tied to blood, and that of the valyrians. They certainly didn't want any mf be capable of riding dragons like them
I firmly believe that Daenerys and Young Griff will never meet or fight. One of my biggest frustrations with GOT is how the Essos stories ended so abruptly. Daeneys still has a lot to do in Essos (Vaes Dothrak, Slaver's Bay and Volantis) and in the end her real war is against slavery and the Others. I think Young Griff will be a "Trystane Truefyre" but with a much more tragic and violent ending. From Arianne's sample chapters, we see that the stormlanders hate the Golden Company for invading and pillaging their lands and committing crimes, so i don't buy the idea that he will be loved. JonCon will discover the boy's true lineage (i believe Young Griff is a descendant of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre). Cersei and JonCon will be the ones responsible for destroying the city. Both of them love a prince born in a wildfire explosion. By the time Daenerys gets to Westeros, King's Landing will be in ruins. To me, that's poetic. And like, book 5 is tittle a dance WITH dragons, not OF THE dragons.
The simplest explanation, in my opinion, if we're trying to makes sense of "Danny hears bells and goes nuts" is that she finally makes it to kings landing and as she looks over the city she sees Aegon being crowned. The city celebrates the return of their targaryan king, the bells chime for him, and it creates this deep disallusion in Danny. After all she's gone through to get there a faker has stolen everything, and is even cheered on for it, and she just decides to burn it all. To kill the fake Targaryan, to kill the disloyal subject, and destroy a city of filth. This would of course be after a whole book of her "embracing her roots as a Targaryan," so she'd already be on the arc as a conquerer. The biggest problem of this explanation is that it's too simple though, it doesn't take into account the other characters, just danny going crazy.
I don't think that's a great explanation for Dany going crazy either. Like why unleash her dragons just because Aegon is popular? It wouldn't endear her to anyone.
@@lucascarroll4859 I view it as a disillusionment mixed with rage in the moment. You've been run out your old home, fought to get back to what you have always been told is rightfully yours, and then you find that the people who should cheer at your return, have all accepted a pretender who's stolen your identity instead. I'd be pretty pissed. It's not right, and not the smartest choice, but to unleash the dragons to prove she's the true targaryan does make sense in a fit of rage. If they won't love her they will fear her, kind of mentality.
@@justacrittic1578 dany already doesn't expect King's Landing to rise for her like Viserys did. It wouldn't make sense for her to get that worked up over it to the point she thinks she needs to torch civilians. And unleashing the dragons to prove she is a real targaryen makes no sense either, what does she have to prove about being a real targaryen when she is the one that brought dragons back?
@@lucascarroll4859 I think that is a fair point. But on your last point about proving herself as the true Targaryan I think that depends on how Aegons claim is treated, if Dany knows the truth about him, and how dany's arc in twow goes. There are things suggesting Dany will start going down a darker path in the next book. I do still think it's the simplest explanation for the bells, in a how to make it make sense while moving the least amount of pieces, it's not necessarily what I think is the best way for it though.
@@justacrittic1578 even if Aegon is treated as true Dany would hardly need to prove herself by torching civilians. I can agree she seems like she'll take a more ruthless streak in TWoW, but that is a far cry from her going crazy or deciding to torch civilians at random. I'd like that explanation for the bells better than what we got in S8 and the other later seasons, but the way that Quinn laid it out makes more sense. Personally I'm not convinced the bells will happen at all in the books.
Okay what about this: Aegon gets one of Dany's dragons. This drives Dany into a rage and the two of them fight on dragonback above King's Landing. JonCon watches as Dany torches her nephew and her surrogate son. Dany is full of grief and rage. JonCon has lost the last piece of Rhaegar. Someone starts ringing the bells, announcing that the king is dead. "Let her be queen over the ashes," Jon whispers.
JonCon goes nuts because his grayscale spreads to Aegon and eventually leads to Aegon's death. When Aegon is infected he decides to keeps Jon's infection secret. At some point someone sees that Aegon is infected they decide he can't be a magical dragon person and they burn him alive, he doesn't survive the fire further proving he wasn't a magical dragon person. Two things happen from here. JonCon goes nuts and starts a murder spree and starts setting off wildfire and the fire spreads the grayscale. Those that survive the murder spree are infected anway and Dany HAS to burn them all.
There's no time for the greyscale to spread as it's a disease that takes years to reach the brain. JonCon has been infected for, being generous, a year and it has barely spread through his hand. The story has about another year left to be finished so it's not likely greyscale will play a major role besides encouraging JonCon to act more brashly.
@14:05 As far as anyone knows, a dragonrider can only ever bond with 1 dragon at a time (in fact, it might be that they can only ever bond with 1 dragon in their life. The two characters who have outlived their dragons- King Viserys I and his son- never bonded with another dragon. Aegon tried to get another dragon egg to hatch for him, but none ever did. Viserys never made the attempt to get an egg to hatch or bond with another living dragon, as far as we know.) And it's unclear if Viserion and Rhaegal view Daenerys as their mother, because we haven't really gotten any exposure to dragons raising their hatchlings so we don't know if dragons form familial bonds
4:03 I either want Tyrion to ring the Bells out of spite because it will cause John Con to hulk out. Or I want Jaime to stop Cersei from lighting the wildfire-only for Tyrion to arrive and kaboom. Idk how that happens but Tyrion is the Iago to Dani’s Othello, the Eren Yaeger of this tale.
I think Kings Landing might still be burned because Joncon won't surrender the city, Aegon tries to tame a dragon and his heritage is revealed because he fails to tame the dragon. It would be a much more madness inducing moment rather than the bells just ringing, seeing his king burned alive breaks him.
I can easily see JonCon being the main instigator behind the burning of Kings Landing, wether in a fit of madness or in desperation (to prevent grayscale from spreading out, etc) but Dany getting the blame for it. And Jon can go mad from greyscale, losing Aegon, or losing his idea of Aegon. There is no DNA tests in Westeros, so one cannot disprove his heritage just by looking at him, so maybe he overhears Varys? Or maybe Varys tries to eliminate Jon (due to his greyscale) but Jon goes beserk and offs Varys and then loses it completely. Also, any idea on how JonCon would react to Jon Snow? I don't know if they would ever meet in the books, but there's plenty of torment material there, especialy should Jon S and Young Griff disagree. Obviously, his loyalty lies with Aegon, the boy he raised, his surrogate son, one that looks Targeryan and is "the older brother". But do you think he would feel obligitated to mediate between the supposed brothers and could that drive a wedge between him and Aegon? Or maybe JonCon would loathe Jon Snow, by the vertue of what he symbolises - Rhaegar forseking his children and duty to sire bastards with Lyanna Stark. Someting that also highlights how much 'not in the inner circle' JonCon was. As far as we know, he knew only what everyone else did. Whatever Rhaegars plans were, he did not share them with Jon. That would hurt, on top of the unrequited love.
Great video, I agree with many with things and disagree with a few. Mainly, I don't think Aegon will ever sit the Iron Throne. I agree that he will claim the kingship and that perhaps half the realm will see him and accept him as king. Having said this, I don't think he will ever take King's Landing. I Think he will be dominant over other areas. My reasoning is, I do believe the alliance between Cersei and Euron will happen in the books as well and I also subscribe to Jaime being the Valonqar. Cersei's and Jaime's Fate seem to bind them to the Red Keep and that seems like the only possible stage for the final confrontation. I believe Dany will probably eliminate Jon Con and Aegon in a scenario similar to that of Dickon and Randyll Tarly in the TV Show. In regards to how Kings Landing will burn, perhaps the Lannister Army will fortify the gates of the city and take shelter inside and Dany will make a second Harrenhall, It's difficult to say, the ending of the show was so catastrophic that, if George ever get's to write it, he could go on a completely different direction.
Unless you went to an alternate reality where Martin isn't a habitual procrastinator and conman to get copies of TWOW and ADOS you can't really say any of this because he will NEVER submit TWOW to his publisher. His plan is to string people along until he drops dead and has been carrying out that plan for a half a decade or so.
Agreed. He has no intention of finishing Winds, let alone the final book. I also don't think he'll let anyone else finish it, as a final 🖕🏽to the fans.
I really like your interpretation of this event being Martin’s Scouring of the Shire, but how do you think the long night will be handled in the books? Could you do a video on what you think the ramifications are or why that story will be so important to the overall narrative? I think the long night is the greatest fumble of the show, because it seemed almost useless in the end. If we’re expecting Jaime and Cersei to die at Casterly Rock and Jon and Daenerys to make it back to Kings landing, what impact will the long night have?
Your theories are a lot of fun and they make logical sense, but I think GRRM always writes with an eye on history. He changes the stories and character names slightly yes, but he weaves the real into the lore. For example Rob Stark the young wolf lines up with the story of Robert the Bruce in some ways. The Red Wedding was modeled after the Scottish Black Dinner and Jon Con could be a slight name change on John Comyn the 3rd (also called the red) who was a guardian awaiting the arrival of Margaret, Maid of Norway who never arrived. After that the history gets too complicated to easily figure out who will win the game of thrones, but IRL both the Yorks and Lancasters were combined as the Tudor dynasty took over with a marriage to Elizabeth of York with a claim through her mother's line. If you can figure out how GRRM will apply this, you can figure out the potential ending of the story
The worst episode of the show for me was in season 5 I think, when arya, who was recovering from an almost fatal stab wound, managed to do an entire parkour chase scene through the streets of braavos. That was the first moment when I thought “this show is going to go downhill very fast” and it never recovered imo
@@pirukiddingme1908 that episode was absurd, you're not wrong. I went with the episode where they went north to capture the Wight and Jon shoulda died like five times, but the Arya one is definitely up there.
irrelevant but having meant to be yours on your joncon playlist is so genius I literally will never be able to ever listen to this song and not think of my favourite asoiaf gay
I would be so disappointed if the order of events from the show is the one in the books tbh... like to me the battle against the white walkers is just way more climactic
I can't believe I'm saying this - but I think this episode gets a lot of unnecessary hate. Everything that was a mess in this episode character-wise was ALREADY a mess, and at this point the show was just hurtling towards a sad death as quickly as possible. Dany's dark-turn was pretty fun to watch I thought, and the taking of KL was brutal but pretty effective. In answer to your 'which episode was worse' question I think 'Beyond The Wall' and 'The Long Night' are far, far worse.
The Scouring of the Shire isn't just showing the shire being destroyed, it shows how the characters have been changed by war. So, how the characters react to what happens or how they have been changed by what happens in TWOW may also play a role. KL isn't Dany or Jon's home, so it's not the same impact as the Scouring of the Shire to returning home and seeing their home destroyed. But the theme of showing how war has changed them would fit, and Dany could go from someone who no longer cares about "innocents" especially if she views them as the enemy for siding with Aegon. That could fit with how GRRM wants to show the differences in war - especially with comparison between WWII and Vietnam and how civilians were treated.
I fell that one of a song of ice and fire main plots it is about how while everybody is fighting for the throne, the real treat is coming from the long night. So I think the final should be about the long night, not about who gets to reign. For me it was ok for the show to focus on the throne since they throw aside some magic plots and the name of the show is the Game of thrones, but for the books final plot should be about the long night, not about who gets to sit in a chair.
completely agreed; and also I won't be too happy if the long night is simply a matter of properly leveling up your warriors and equipping the right magic swords and magic mounts for a showdown with the Others and their army; where is the "heart in conflict with itself" in that?
Back when it first aired, I got so angry when the show had Stannis burning his daughter (and thereby assassinated his character) that I stopped watching for a few months, where I previously watched the episodes as they came out. I only picked it back up at the behest of a friend and lost most of my investment in the show from then on. The entire last season of the show a horrible mess. The closer it got towards the end, the worse it got.
I personally agree with the Jon Con going mad abd blowing ip kings landing when a "battle of the bells" moment happens but i disagree with when. I personally think that will all happen before the long night because i dont see Dany surviving the Long Night. I think she is going to sacrifice herself to end it in true queen style. I think this is allides to in Stannis being the only "king" of Westeros who is actually taking the threat in the North seriously which lends him more legitamacy then any of the others. I think Danys overall character is an AzorAhi mixed with Nissa Nissa figure and that she and Jon will end the long night through self sacrifice.
Yeah that's roughly how I think 'bells' might happen too; its JohnCon who will both bring a plauge and (via some means, possibly including wildfire) physical distruction to westeros and king's landing in particular as he descends to madness -- I'm just not sure at what stage of the plot. They're possibly also conflating another (theorized) event into their "bells" - there are theories that Dany might indeed burn a city w drangonfire, namely Old Volantis, the portion of Volantis within the Black Walls where the old valyrian aristocracy lives. Seems there's a potential for a well organized, pro-Dany slave revolt there, which might push the old guard to seek safety behind the black walls, and this old quarter makes for a nice way to at least possibly largely contain the destruction to the slavers that sent a fleet against her.
My own pet theory on how 'the bells' made it into the show is that D&D were struggling with how to end the series in general - GRRM had given them a few specific things and probably the general movement (Dany first vs an antagonist in Westeros, then North with Jon to deal with others, then back to KL to deal with antagonist). To help they turned to fan theories and took 'inspiration' from them. Another example is the lake that the group who venture beyond the wall are on surrounded on a sheet of ice by Wights. Seems to me inspired by the theory that Stannis will use a lake covered in ice vs the Bolton forces in the battle of ice coming up. I think D&D, struggling with inspiration for what to actually do in the last couple of seasons read our theories and then used them as launching off points. Often to bad outcomes as they shoved them in spots they didn't make sense (like the bells).
I think it's possible that Jon Con's grey scale spreads and there's an outbreak in King's Landing. Either Jon Con or Daenerys will end up burning it to prevent grey scale from spreading.
What if Aegon finds out about the greyscale and banishes him. The humiliation of a second banishment and the betrayal could push him over the edge. Hearing bells as he leaves the red keep or is leaving the city, he looses grip and sets alight the wildfire? Betrayal and hate is a more potent motivation than loss
Valid theories here, particularly if JonCon knows about the wildfire. He might do - he was Aerys's hand during his late crazy-pants phase - but whether he'll remember this detail in the course of the sort of crazy-pants phase you ascribe to him is an interesting question.
Daenarys's actions in this episode made sense to me. Not solely because of what happened in season 7 or 8, but more because of everything that she did in Essos. A Targaryen is a Targaryen is a Targaryen.
I agree that the bells will happen after the main story is finished with The Others and such, George has spoken at length about how The Scourging of The Shire is one of his favourite bits of LOTR so I can imagine the destruction of Kings Landing being his version of that, the old regime simply cannot continue as too much has changed and they must rebuild or leave the past behind
I absolutely love the comparison to the scouring of the shire, even the movie version of LOTR is similar to GOT, in that many aspects of "the return" were left out. The effects of this are far more obvious in GOT however.
Quinn The GM, can you do a video about UnTommen theory. I think it didnt been talk about much. UnTommen theory is Tommen did off himself but Cersei orders Qyburn to resurrect her son like the Mountain. Some also said Tommen might be Valonqor since he's the second child and might kills Cersei Lannister. I wanna hear your opinion about this.
Alternative theory just by factor of cool : Jon con discovers the Aegon is a fake while Aegon and Dany have a dance of the dragons above kingslanding, all the while the bells are ringing around him which causes him to snap and use the scorpio which he was aiming at dany to kill the dragon aegon is riding causing them to fall down and as shown in HotD explode igniting the caches of wildfire which dany is blamed for as people think she killed the dragon and caused it to fall.
I agree a lot of things in the show will probably happen in the books, but the difference will be proper build up to the plot points and not half baked ideas and the characters conviently forgetting their character traits
Little bits of other plot threads from the show point towards your take as well. Like the Tarlys weirdly supporting the Lannisters in the show. It would make a lot of sense if they support Aegon. I still think it's possible Jaime and Cersi die in Kings Landing if they are imprisoned by Aegon if he takes over.
What sets jon conn off could be if aegon approaches a dragon and is immediately killed by it. That would put his Targaryen lineage into question as well as getting rid of him.
I think the key bit of nuance that separates the show canon from the possible book canon is the *appearance* of Dany going mad. She might not literally snap, but I could see a patriarchal society like Westeros drumming her up as being insane and turning on her as a result.
I disagree that Daenerys X Aegon will be after the Long Night, it makes more sense to be before/during the Long Night. It doesn't make sense for Bran to be king after a Targaryen fight, but it makes a lot of sense for him to be king after the Long Night.
Bran will be a greenseer king and sit on the weirwood throne. It makes little to no sense in having an impotant man, not of the blood royal, sitting on the iron throne. If that is actually George's ending, I would be thoroughly disappointed. As for the next dance, I do believe it will be post long night, as it will imitate the scouring of the shire or battle of five armies from Tolkien. This will fit George's overall theme with people coming together to defeat a common enemy, only to fall back into infighting and war the moment the threat passes.
It's crazy that only 2 of the episodes are rated as 'bad' in that graphic I think most of us book readers would be way harsher and we probably have a pretty distorted view of that TV show compared to TV only viewers
S1E1 is the worst episode because they didn’t let Tyrion do his little flip
Didn't have the crunchy roast onion dripping with gravy scene either. All us book fans knew the show was going to be awful after we didn't see Ben chow down on that gravylicious onion.
Agreed
@@baronmunro1494😂
I personally think season 7, episode 6, "Beyond the Wall," was the worst episode of Game of Thrones. It was just nonsense from beginning to end, with plotholes so big that Balerion the Black Dread could do the Thriller dance inside them.
^this is the answer
Also Uncle Benjen died for no reason
Yes, I don’t know why this episode is so easily forgotten when ppl say S8 “ruined the show”
Beyond the wall was insultingly bad, because at that point, there still existed a hope that GOT could be amazing.
By The Bells, I legitimately laughed my ass off
totally agree, the bells at least had a good direction
I think a good support for this theory is a comment Jon Con made in Dance. He has like a mini flashback where he's telling his men even Tywin Lannister couldn't have found Robert in the Battle of the Bells. His man replies that Tywin would have found him, specifically by burning the town down and finding his bones after. A potential trigger instead of Aegon dying is these bells get sounded and a combination of that and Jon Con's greyscale could mentally put him back at that battle and convinces him that to win he has to burn the city down or he'll fail again.
I feel 1000% ot would either be Cersei or JonCon would do it. There's so much set up for it.
there will be a greyscacle outbreak in kings landing and it will play parts in burning down the city
Imagine if Cersei's wildfire under the sept also blows up a large part of the city, and then Jon Con uses wildfire to burn the city, and then Dany burns the city with her dragons. 💀
Let's say they each do their part in burning King's Landing
George loves ambiguous events. I think it would be a very interesting ending if Cersei plants more wildfire, Connington goes a bit mad, and Dany attacks the gates and the golden company (led by Aegon) and kills him. Then we may see the city blow up, and people draw their own conclusions of who did it. Jon concludes Dany did it.
8:08 It would be really funny in a sad way of Aegon’s story was 100% true. He really was Daenerys’ nephew and the true heir to the throne. He is the “Mummer’s Dragon” but in a hyperliteral way. He is the Dragon that the Mummer, Varys, supported. And Daenerys’ suspicion and reliance on prophecy ended up destroying her family.
Edit: To be clear, I’m 95% sure Aegon is a Blackfyre, or at least not a true Targaryen. I just think it would be equally interesting and weighty for the story if his tale was true.
I agree with this sentiment, it has a much better sense of tragedy to it. And the interpretation of the Mummer's Dragon you put forward here is something I have often felt like the text is actually saying and that many people overlook it.
It would be tragic but idk i find it hard for young gryff to be aegon
@@DanyelAzamor-lh7yg Why though? Varys is easily resourceful enough to have whisked baby Aegon out of the Red Keep. It makes for a more compelling story if Aegon is the real deal, and would be more significant for the involvement of the entire Dornish storyline. Thematically it's far more interesting if Aegon really is the son of Rhaegar and Ellia, and creates a very interesting dynamic with Jon and Dany.
I think it’s perfectly setup that we will never figure out the truth of the question, making both interpretations just as important and relevant. Adding another layer of tragedy that we’ll never know which cruelty was the reality the characters faced.
@@princeprocrastinate6485Too many holes in Varys’s story, not a lot makes sense. That’s why it’s such a prevalent theory, which I also believe. I don’t think GRRM would add this “perfect prince” character with a better claim than Dany and the same heritage as Jon so late into the story and have them be exactly who they say they are. He seems like another character who is stealing the identity of the main characters, like fake Arya and Rorge being the Hound. Hidden or false identity is a prolific thing in Feast and Dance now that I think about it.
JonCon, absolutely milked dry, petrified at the thought of having to appear in another QuinnGM video. Quinn is unempathetic.
Poor JonCon hasn’t been so thoroughly milked since Rhaegar’s visit to Griffin’s Roost
@@kai-in1xt ayo 🤨
He has a point though. The exclusion of Young Griff and JonCon were some very detrimental elements for the show.
Sending my prayers so GRRM actually does JonCon justice in TWOW and Quinn can live the rest of his life in peace.
Can’t believe it took Quinn 5 minutes to mention Jon Con that must’ve taken some serious restraint
Unbound, unbent, unbroken is my least favorite episode. Sansa's wedding is by far the lowest point in the series for me
The wedding to Ramsay, that is
Oh man, I forgot that was the title of that episode
Agree, that storyline was not only extremely nonsensical, but also changed the whole tone of the story in comparison to the books in favor of disturbing male-gaze fanfiction.
Agreed worst episode, also the butchered dorne plotline was at its worst here.
The Iron Throne is my least favourite episode. Yes the Bells has many, many problems: Dany deciding to burn a city despite saying for 2 seasons she didn’t want to be the Queen of Ash and Bone then deciding to do it because she heard some damn Bells, those same bells being ones of surrender despite being established in Freaking Blackwater (Goated Episode) to never mean surrender and worst of all massacring Jaime Lannister’s character arc. Nonetheless I’d argue Iron Throne is worse, Dany going full Germany 1940’s, Tyrion massacring one of the best lines in the franchise, Jon debating if killing a tyrant who just nuked a city was a bad thing, Jon somehow not getting killed by Drogon, the Unsullied and Dothraki, Bronn actually becoming not only Lord of Highgarden, not only Lord Paramount of the Mander but the freaking Master of Coin despite not knowing how debt works. Then there’s the freaking ripoff Kingsmoot, Iron Islands independence just getting forgotten, a new Prince of Dorne, couldn’t even give us Arianne, no one suggesting Gendry the last living son of the uncontested king. But I could I live with that, all of it, if not for Bran becoming King, I don’t care if it’s GRRM approved it’s the dumbest thing in the episode and in my opinion all of GOT. He’s a creepy tree wizard, emotionless robot who cannot produce heirs which in a feudal world is a big no no, he doesn’t follow the Faith, he mind jacked Hodor which is considered the worst crime a Skinchanger can do by the Free Folk, he’s been missing and presumed dead for 5 years, he has no claim on the Iron Throne at all yet he becomes King because he has the ‘best story’. Motherfucker there’s at least 5 people there with a better story than Bran. Finally how something ends is extremely important, you fuck that up, the entire series can be ruined for people, and this is how 8 years of storytelling ends.
He would be king because he is a wizard and essentially nothing else
@@McHobotheBobo Was he ever kind in Season 7 or 8?
@@BatFlash52 I typoed lol
@@McHobotheBobo Oh okay. I don’t think being magical is the thing that makes you king is the point of the story.
Hello Glidus
I think this man has made more JonCon content than GRRM at this point
I like the idea of Jon Connington realizing that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son, and that being the inciting incident that has him setting off the wildfire caches under Kings Landing. Finding out that he rebuilt his life on a lie...
I don’t think he’d care that much. he’s in too deep.
I remember someone on UA-cam likening “The Bells” as a train crashing and honestly, I’m glad I’ve never seen a train crash cause I feel it’s pretty apt
I cannot for the life of me find the video- it might have been InDeepGeek, Alt Shift X, or even an earlier video from Quinn the GM idk- but there is a video out there breaking-down how much truth there really is to Targaryen madness, and the creator made an excellent point: when a Targaryen goes nuts, it exacerbates their already-existing personality traits, it doesn't cause them to go from a fundamentally good person to a mass-murdering maniac. Daenerys more than anything is defined by her messiah complex; she has suffered and seen other people suffering terribly, so she wants to save/protect everyone. Therefore, if she were to snap and go mad, it would likely be more in that vein, ex. recklessly putting herself in danger to try to save others. Basically the complete opposite of what happens in the show (we should NEVER forgive D&D for what they did)
You left off Our Hilts Hurt. Could have been them
She has pretty much always been a mass murdering maniac. Who she protects and when has also always been super erratic, and her reaction to usually saving people too late or in a way they dont want is just to be delusional about it. It goes way deeper than a messiah complex, she is repeatedly just detached from reality completely.
She has pretty much always been a mass murdering maniac. Who she protects and when has also always been super erratic
With the book, I believe you are correct it will be Jon Con burning it. When Danny tries for the throne, Aegon will flee and the city will be burned by wildfire. We need to see the Sparrows warfare against Danny for her dragons and against the red priests. They should be an ever constant annoying force just like the the brotherhood without banners.
Sorry Quinn… but the Long Night is much worse. Arya killing the Night King destroyed a piece of me. Daeny being a mad Targaryen makes more sense
Arya killing the Night King isn’t THAT bad imo. It’s become a bigger issue in the community than it really was for the plot.
@@Deafulttressady It’s that bad because the Night King shouldn’t be killed in the first place. The story is “A Song of Ice and Fire” that human, despite their petty difference, must band together to fight the existential threat. Arya killing the Night King means that doesn’t matter and the show regress back to being just “Game of Thrones” which is about petty squabbles for self-interest all over again. Cersei’s choice of selfishly sitting out the whole Long Night conflict was proven to be right instead of wrong. It’s a horrible message overall.
In what world does Dany being mad makes sense
@@lonemotheo1964 The book world. Where she is showing signs of being on the losing side of the coin toss.
@@NielsMulvad which book are you reading
A discussion on the penultimate episode of the show. Ahh a break from the Griffin Lord.
Quinn: Did someone say JonCon?
Never undestood why Cersei was crowned queen after Tomen in the show. She wasn't a Baratheon.
Plus I don’t get why the people would be ok with that they would riot especially with the death of Margaery
She had a monopoly on violence, backed up with the Mountain’s blade. And everyone was just exhausted.
Plus - there was no time to have another power struggle with the Kettleblacks or whoever.
The whole Baratheon thing barely matters to anybody outside of stannis. They aren't the Targs with this long respected lineage and clear line of succession. The lannisters came in after robert,changed all the royal heraldry to better match theirs, and then Cersei was functionally in charge for a long time. It is easy to see why people would just default to her.
JonCon Video! We will be there 🔥
My big head canon about the endgame that I haven't seen anyone talk about yet is that I think Bronn will ally with Young Griff to secure his claim on Castle Stokeworth and he will kill Tommen on orders of Jon Connington during the Sack of King's Landing. Mirroring the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon, Young Griff will be in a difficult position, but unlike Bobby B, Aegon will not let the murderers off scot free, and he will actually execute Bronn and JonCon for crimes committed during the Sack. (Also, JonCon's warcrimes will be triggered by the bells of the great sept).
The Time Lords put the sound of bells into her mind during the Time War, as soon as she heard them it triggered the programming
Daenerys Targaryen, the time has come.....execute order 66.
craziest Master reveal yet
Jon con might even be trying to kill robert when he sets off the wildfire. He may imagine he is fighting in the original battle.
I love this idea
@@QuinnTheGMSenility is a symptom of late stage grayscale, the last symptom before becoming a Stone Man.
Wtf new video from Quinn the GM! Gotta watch it as soon as possible.
I worry that ideas and speculation videos from our stalwart content creators over the years will ultimately end up being more interesting than anything George conjurs up. Love the idea of Jon Con going mad finding out about Faegon. Great work as ever Quinn
Once again, another incredible analysis and theory video. Well done.
Oh, Quinn uploaded. I guess that means it's my favorite day of the week
Nobody:
Quinn the GM: Here’s 1001 reasons why Jon Connington is the best character in the history of humanity
It is notable that JonCon thinks to himself that Tywin would have burnt the town down to find Robert, could that be foreshadowing for this? Perhaps he snaps and thinks he’s looking for Robert again
0:42 The note didn't specify that Bran would be king of Westeros (minus The North). It detailed who would sit in the Iron Throne. And said throne was destroyed before they elected Bran as king.
Well reasoned theory. I wonder if both options could be true. Jon Con hears the claims that Griff is a pretender, refuses to believe it and Aegon tries to prove his legitimately by taming one of Dany's other dragons, with about as much success as Quentin: killing Aegon and causing Jon Con to snap
3:42 Black or Red a Dragon is a Dragon 🐉🐲🐉
Beyond the Wall 7x6 is the worst episode of game of thrones BY FAAAAAAAAARRRRR. Season 8 were bad as they were wholly unfulfilling, and character motivations made no sense. Season 7x6 had these problems AND the very fabric of reality and physics just don't exist anymore.
Later series of GoT remind me of the Chanel Suit episode of The Simpsons. They started off with a perfect garment and in the end they had a badly mangled Chanel Suit
If the last season switched the order around so Cersei was dealt with first and then face the Night King it instantly would have worked miles better. Even if the final goal was to make Dany go full “Hitler” for the oppressed could have had the toll of the wars biting her and hostilities etc.
Ultimately the biggest problem is Dany going wild on King’s Landing and unless you removed it that end point was always going to be poor conclusion.
In my current interpretation of the series, something analogous to the bells will definitely happen. It just makes thematic sense for George to parallel the scouring of the shire from LOTR. The idea that, while The Others may have been defeated, evil has not been vanquished from Westeros and still exists in the hearts of men.
Well done. I personally think the war for the dawn will be last, but I see the struggle for the throne playing out exactly like this.
I’ve funnily enough come around on the order; the War for the Throne ending the series does add up
omg wasn’t ready for the heathers jump scare at 9:55 PLZ drop the joncon playlist
One thing (a lot of relevance if true) I’ll add to your video is that if you go through Dragon Demands UA-cam channel. He has a lot of stuff from behind the scenes and stuff he found from BTS pieces of GoT and stuff the crew etc involved say.
From his fragments it sounded like one variant they had was the city would accidentally explode in wild fire when Dany dragon fires the city in the battle and accidentally hit the stashes of dragon fire . So a complete accident.
10:34 i think the sand snakes picked a side, they dont know Quin is BBQ so they might see Aegon as a threat if he of jon get lippy
I‘d say the last four episodes of GoT all are of equal quality (with that quality being in the negative area of the scale). Of the four I think the long night sticks out the worst as until that episode you at least had hope the season might be good. After that you just felt nothing and watched the thing going down in flames
The long night has to be the worst episode. I can't concieve of any reality where winterfell isn't burnt to the ground by the white walkers. Instead we got the lord of the rings style fairy tale where the walkers magically die around all our heros. The episode destroyed my suspension of disbelief to the point where the episodes succeeding it doesn't even matter.
I honestly think it would make for a better story if Aegon is who he claims to be. Thematically it would make the Dornish plotline and the Martells even more relevant, and would make for an interesting conundrum if Dany does come to blows with the real heir, someone who does have a better claim than her and may even be better shaped to rule.
I also don't think it's outlandish for Varys to have saved Aegon and I don't see why he would lie about that to Kevan who is literally dying in the ADWD epilogue.
We may never know Aegon's true heritage anyway, but still I just don't find the Blackfyre angle nearly as interesting.
“You can have more time, there’s just no time, you could have five more seasons and more episodes in a season? I’m sorry, there’s just absolutely no time.”
Call in for your wins folks, all of you who guessed our next video will be a Jon Connington video can now get your winnings
Been refreshing the channel to be one of the first to watch this!!
I think Kings Landing is destined to be destroyed at the end of the story and Bran may end up ruling from the Isle of Faces.
Also, I think Daenerys will die during The Long Night, so the conflict with Aegon should happen before that.
One thing that Victarion/Euron riding dragons theory that I think people kinda forgets to question themselves is: what is the reason for Dragonbinder to exist? We generally believe the valyrians made it, with all their hallmarks (blood magic, sacrifice, high valyrian runes). If that's true, then why did they make a horn like this? We all know they conquered half of Essos with the power of dragons and broke the mighty of Ghys, and they certainly know about it. If anyone can just toot this horn and bring watever dragon under their control, then that's like Palpatine building the Death Star and putting giant illuminating signs to show where the exhaust port is.
If the horn IS intended to bend a dragon to one's will, then it must be tied to blood, and that of the valyrians. They certainly didn't want any mf be capable of riding dragons like them
Another quality video Quinn.
I firmly believe that Daenerys and Young Griff will never meet or fight. One of my biggest frustrations with GOT is how the Essos stories ended so abruptly. Daeneys still has a lot to do in Essos (Vaes Dothrak, Slaver's Bay and Volantis) and in the end her real war is against slavery and the Others. I think Young Griff will be a "Trystane Truefyre" but with a much more tragic and violent ending.
From Arianne's sample chapters, we see that the stormlanders hate the Golden Company for invading and pillaging their lands and committing crimes, so i don't buy the idea that he will be loved. JonCon will discover the boy's true lineage (i believe Young Griff is a descendant of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre). Cersei and JonCon will be the ones responsible for destroying the city. Both of them love a prince born in a wildfire explosion.
By the time Daenerys gets to Westeros, King's Landing will be in ruins. To me, that's poetic. And like, book 5 is tittle a dance WITH dragons, not OF THE dragons.
The simplest explanation, in my opinion, if we're trying to makes sense of "Danny hears bells and goes nuts" is that she finally makes it to kings landing and as she looks over the city she sees Aegon being crowned. The city celebrates the return of their targaryan king, the bells chime for him, and it creates this deep disallusion in Danny. After all she's gone through to get there a faker has stolen everything, and is even cheered on for it, and she just decides to burn it all. To kill the fake Targaryan, to kill the disloyal subject, and destroy a city of filth. This would of course be after a whole book of her "embracing her roots as a Targaryan," so she'd already be on the arc as a conquerer.
The biggest problem of this explanation is that it's too simple though, it doesn't take into account the other characters, just danny going crazy.
I don't think that's a great explanation for Dany going crazy either. Like why unleash her dragons just because Aegon is popular? It wouldn't endear her to anyone.
@@lucascarroll4859 I view it as a disillusionment mixed with rage in the moment. You've been run out your old home, fought to get back to what you have always been told is rightfully yours, and then you find that the people who should cheer at your return, have all accepted a pretender who's stolen your identity instead. I'd be pretty pissed. It's not right, and not the smartest choice, but to unleash the dragons to prove she's the true targaryan does make sense in a fit of rage. If they won't love her they will fear her, kind of mentality.
@@justacrittic1578 dany already doesn't expect King's Landing to rise for her like Viserys did. It wouldn't make sense for her to get that worked up over it to the point she thinks she needs to torch civilians. And unleashing the dragons to prove she is a real targaryen makes no sense either, what does she have to prove about being a real targaryen when she is the one that brought dragons back?
@@lucascarroll4859 I think that is a fair point. But on your last point about proving herself as the true Targaryan I think that depends on how Aegons claim is treated, if Dany knows the truth about him, and how dany's arc in twow goes. There are things suggesting Dany will start going down a darker path in the next book.
I do still think it's the simplest explanation for the bells, in a how to make it make sense while moving the least amount of pieces, it's not necessarily what I think is the best way for it though.
@@justacrittic1578 even if Aegon is treated as true Dany would hardly need to prove herself by torching civilians. I can agree she seems like she'll take a more ruthless streak in TWoW, but that is a far cry from her going crazy or deciding to torch civilians at random. I'd like that explanation for the bells better than what we got in S8 and the other later seasons, but the way that Quinn laid it out makes more sense. Personally I'm not convinced the bells will happen at all in the books.
Okay what about this: Aegon gets one of Dany's dragons. This drives Dany into a rage and the two of them fight on dragonback above King's Landing. JonCon watches as Dany torches her nephew and her surrogate son. Dany is full of grief and rage. JonCon has lost the last piece of Rhaegar. Someone starts ringing the bells, announcing that the king is dead. "Let her be queen over the ashes," Jon whispers.
JonCon goes nuts because his grayscale spreads to Aegon and eventually leads to Aegon's death. When Aegon is infected he decides to keeps Jon's infection secret. At some point someone sees that Aegon is infected they decide he can't be a magical dragon person and they burn him alive, he doesn't survive the fire further proving he wasn't a magical dragon person. Two things happen from here. JonCon goes nuts and starts a murder spree and starts setting off wildfire and the fire spreads the grayscale. Those that survive the murder spree are infected anway and Dany HAS to burn them all.
The maesters don't want you to know this but you can burn any Targaryen or Blackfyre. I burned twenty Targaryens at Summerhall
There's no time for the greyscale to spread as it's a disease that takes years to reach the brain. JonCon has been infected for, being generous, a year and it has barely spread through his hand. The story has about another year left to be finished so it's not likely greyscale will play a major role besides encouraging JonCon to act more brashly.
@14:05 As far as anyone knows, a dragonrider can only ever bond with 1 dragon at a time (in fact, it might be that they can only ever bond with 1 dragon in their life. The two characters who have outlived their dragons- King Viserys I and his son- never bonded with another dragon. Aegon tried to get another dragon egg to hatch for him, but none ever did. Viserys never made the attempt to get an egg to hatch or bond with another living dragon, as far as we know.) And it's unclear if Viserion and Rhaegal view Daenerys as their mother, because we haven't really gotten any exposure to dragons raising their hatchlings so we don't know if dragons form familial bonds
I like the image of Joffrey destroying the book
4:03 I either want Tyrion to ring the Bells out of spite because it will cause John Con to hulk out. Or I want Jaime to stop Cersei from lighting the wildfire-only for Tyrion to arrive and kaboom.
Idk how that happens but Tyrion is the Iago to Dani’s Othello, the Eren Yaeger of this tale.
I think Kings Landing might still be burned because Joncon won't surrender the city, Aegon tries to tame a dragon and his heritage is revealed because he fails to tame the dragon. It would be a much more madness inducing moment rather than the bells just ringing, seeing his king burned alive breaks him.
Cutting Faegon really fucked up the later plotlines in the show, they tried to replace him with Cersei but it just doesn't work.
I can easily see JonCon being the main instigator behind the burning of Kings Landing, wether in a fit of madness or in desperation (to prevent grayscale from spreading out, etc) but Dany getting the blame for it. And Jon can go mad from greyscale, losing Aegon, or losing his idea of Aegon. There is no DNA tests in Westeros, so one cannot disprove his heritage just by looking at him, so maybe he overhears Varys? Or maybe Varys tries to eliminate Jon (due to his greyscale) but Jon goes beserk and offs Varys and then loses it completely.
Also, any idea on how JonCon would react to Jon Snow? I don't know if they would ever meet in the books, but there's plenty of torment material there, especialy should Jon S and Young Griff disagree. Obviously, his loyalty lies with Aegon, the boy he raised, his surrogate son, one that looks Targeryan and is "the older brother". But do you think he would feel obligitated to mediate between the supposed brothers and could that drive a wedge between him and Aegon? Or maybe JonCon would loathe Jon Snow, by the vertue of what he symbolises - Rhaegar forseking his children and duty to sire bastards with Lyanna Stark. Someting that also highlights how much 'not in the inner circle' JonCon was. As far as we know, he knew only what everyone else did. Whatever Rhaegars plans were, he did not share them with Jon. That would hurt, on top of the unrequited love.
Great video, I agree with many with things and disagree with a few. Mainly, I don't think Aegon will ever sit the Iron Throne. I agree that he will claim the kingship and that perhaps half the realm will see him and accept him as king. Having said this, I don't think he will ever take King's Landing. I Think he will be dominant over other areas. My reasoning is, I do believe the alliance between Cersei and Euron will happen in the books as well and I also subscribe to Jaime being the Valonqar. Cersei's and Jaime's Fate seem to bind them to the Red Keep and that seems like the only possible stage for the final confrontation. I believe Dany will probably eliminate Jon Con and Aegon in a scenario similar to that of Dickon and Randyll Tarly in the TV Show. In regards to how Kings Landing will burn, perhaps the Lannister Army will fortify the gates of the city and take shelter inside and Dany will make a second Harrenhall, It's difficult to say, the ending of the show was so catastrophic that, if George ever get's to write it, he could go on a completely different direction.
Unless you went to an alternate reality where Martin isn't a habitual procrastinator and conman to get copies of TWOW and ADOS you can't really say any of this because he will NEVER submit TWOW to his publisher. His plan is to string people along until he drops dead and has been carrying out that plan for a half a decade or so.
Agreed. He has no intention of finishing Winds, let alone the final book. I also don't think he'll let anyone else finish it, as a final 🖕🏽to the fans.
I really like your interpretation of this event being Martin’s Scouring of the Shire, but how do you think the long night will be handled in the books? Could you do a video on what you think the ramifications are or why that story will be so important to the overall narrative?
I think the long night is the greatest fumble of the show, because it seemed almost useless in the end. If we’re expecting Jaime and Cersei to die at Casterly Rock and Jon and Daenerys to make it back to Kings landing, what impact will the long night have?
Your theories are a lot of fun and they make logical sense, but I think GRRM always writes with an eye on history. He changes the stories and character names slightly yes, but he weaves the real into the lore. For example Rob Stark the young wolf lines up with the story of Robert the Bruce in some ways. The Red Wedding was modeled after the Scottish Black Dinner and Jon Con could be a slight name change on John Comyn the 3rd (also called the red) who was a guardian awaiting the arrival of Margaret, Maid of Norway who never arrived.
After that the history gets too complicated to easily figure out who will win the game of thrones, but IRL both the Yorks and Lancasters were combined as the Tudor dynasty took over with a marriage to Elizabeth of York with a claim through her mother's line. If you can figure out how GRRM will apply this, you can figure out the potential ending of the story
The worst episode of the show for me was in season 5 I think, when arya, who was recovering from an almost fatal stab wound, managed to do an entire parkour chase scene through the streets of braavos. That was the first moment when I thought “this show is going to go downhill very fast” and it never recovered imo
That was season six
@@Edmures_rampant_manhood yeah you’re right, just looked it up, season 6 episode 8, locking it in
@@pirukiddingme1908 that episode was absurd, you're not wrong. I went with the episode where they went north to capture the Wight and Jon shoulda died like five times, but the Arya one is definitely up there.
You’re frickin awesome man!
First they were like; 'I've never known bells to mean surrender!'
Then they were all; 'Ring the bells to surrender!'
irrelevant but having meant to be yours on your joncon playlist is so genius I literally will never be able to ever listen to this song and not think of my favourite asoiaf gay
That and Turn to Stone by ELO are my proudest picks for that playlist.
@@QuinnTheGM “i turn to stone when you are gone” OH COME ONNN i will be inconsolable now
I would be so disappointed if the order of events from the show is the one in the books tbh... like to me the battle against the white walkers is just way more climactic
I can't believe I'm saying this - but I think this episode gets a lot of unnecessary hate. Everything that was a mess in this episode character-wise was ALREADY a mess, and at this point the show was just hurtling towards a sad death as quickly as possible. Dany's dark-turn was pretty fun to watch I thought, and the taking of KL was brutal but pretty effective. In answer to your 'which episode was worse' question I think 'Beyond The Wall' and 'The Long Night' are far, far worse.
I agree with your theories towards the end. Makes sense and is line with what George might do.
Last time I was this early, Dany was still sane! 😂
The Scouring of the Shire isn't just showing the shire being destroyed, it shows how the characters have been changed by war. So, how the characters react to what happens or how they have been changed by what happens in TWOW may also play a role. KL isn't Dany or Jon's home, so it's not the same impact as the Scouring of the Shire to returning home and seeing their home destroyed. But the theme of showing how war has changed them would fit, and Dany could go from someone who no longer cares about "innocents" especially if she views them as the enemy for siding with Aegon. That could fit with how GRRM wants to show the differences in war - especially with comparison between WWII and Vietnam and how civilians were treated.
I don’t think even JonCon would be gay for Rhaegar as much as Quinn is being gay for JonCon
I fell that one of a song of ice and fire main plots it is about how while everybody is fighting for the throne, the real treat is coming from the long night. So I think the final should be about the long night, not about who gets to reign. For me it was ok for the show to focus on the throne since they throw aside some magic plots and the name of the show is the Game of thrones, but for the books final plot should be about the long night, not about who gets to sit in a chair.
completely agreed; and also I won't be too happy if the long night is simply a matter of properly leveling up your warriors and equipping the right magic swords and magic mounts for a showdown with the Others and their army; where is the "heart in conflict with itself" in that?
It’s crazy how you consistently manage to shoehorn in ASoIaF speculation into your Jon Connington videos
Back when it first aired, I got so angry when the show had Stannis burning his daughter (and thereby assassinated his character) that I stopped watching for a few months, where I previously watched the episodes as they came out. I only picked it back up at the behest of a friend and lost most of my investment in the show from then on.
The entire last season of the show a horrible mess. The closer it got towards the end, the worse it got.
Quinn not mentioning JonCon challenge level impossible.
8:33 Sansa won’t want to side with Dani if Tyrion is with her, but I don’t see her wanting to return to Kings Landing.
I personally agree with the Jon Con going mad abd blowing ip kings landing when a "battle of the bells" moment happens but i disagree with when. I personally think that will all happen before the long night because i dont see Dany surviving the Long Night. I think she is going to sacrifice herself to end it in true queen style. I think this is allides to in Stannis being the only "king" of Westeros who is actually taking the threat in the North seriously which lends him more legitamacy then any of the others. I think Danys overall character is an AzorAhi mixed with Nissa Nissa figure and that she and Jon will end the long night through self sacrifice.
Daenerys Targaryen, the time has come...... execute order 66.
Another day, Another JonCon video (Please keep making more JonCon videos)
Yeah that's roughly how I think 'bells' might happen too; its JohnCon who will both bring a plauge and (via some means, possibly including wildfire) physical distruction to westeros and king's landing in particular as he descends to madness -- I'm just not sure at what stage of the plot.
They're possibly also conflating another (theorized) event into their "bells" - there are theories that Dany might indeed burn a city w drangonfire, namely Old Volantis, the portion of Volantis within the Black Walls where the old valyrian aristocracy lives. Seems there's a potential for a well organized, pro-Dany slave revolt there, which might push the old guard to seek safety behind the black walls, and this old quarter makes for a nice way to at least possibly largely contain the destruction to the slavers that sent a fleet against her.
obviously it was her monarch program trigger that led her to switch personalities.
My own pet theory on how 'the bells' made it into the show is that D&D were struggling with how to end the series in general - GRRM had given them a few specific things and probably the general movement (Dany first vs an antagonist in Westeros, then North with Jon to deal with others, then back to KL to deal with antagonist). To help they turned to fan theories and took 'inspiration' from them.
Another example is the lake that the group who venture beyond the wall are on surrounded on a sheet of ice by Wights. Seems to me inspired by the theory that Stannis will use a lake covered in ice vs the Bolton forces in the battle of ice coming up.
I think D&D, struggling with inspiration for what to actually do in the last couple of seasons read our theories and then used them as launching off points. Often to bad outcomes as they shoved them in spots they didn't make sense (like the bells).
I think it's possible that Jon Con's grey scale spreads and there's an outbreak in King's Landing. Either Jon Con or Daenerys will end up burning it to prevent grey scale from spreading.
What if Aegon finds out about the greyscale and banishes him. The humiliation of a second banishment and the betrayal could push him over the edge. Hearing bells as he leaves the red keep or is leaving the city, he looses grip and sets alight the wildfire? Betrayal and hate is a more potent motivation than loss
Valid theories here, particularly if JonCon knows about the wildfire. He might do - he was Aerys's hand during his late crazy-pants phase - but whether he'll remember this detail in the course of the sort of crazy-pants phase you ascribe to him is an interesting question.
Daenarys's actions in this episode made sense to me. Not solely because of what happened in season 7 or 8, but more because of everything that she did in Essos. A Targaryen is a Targaryen is a Targaryen.
I agree that the bells will happen after the main story is finished with The Others and such, George has spoken at length about how The Scourging of The Shire is one of his favourite bits of LOTR so I can imagine the destruction of Kings Landing being his version of that, the old regime simply cannot continue as too much has changed and they must rebuild or leave the past behind
Lol left this comment before I finished the video! Good stuff Quinn!
I cannot believe that you managed to sneak JonCon into a video again
I absolutely love the comparison to the scouring of the shire, even the movie version of LOTR is similar to GOT, in that many aspects of "the return" were left out. The effects of this are far more obvious in GOT however.
I remember trying to explain Jon Connington to my show-only friends when this aired and they were so confused lmao
Haven’t watched yet but love another joncon video
Least favorite is battle of the bastards because that’s where I gave up
Quinn The GM, can you do a video about UnTommen theory. I think it didnt been talk about much. UnTommen theory is Tommen did off himself but Cersei orders Qyburn to resurrect her son like the Mountain. Some also said Tommen might be Valonqor since he's the second child and might kills Cersei Lannister. I wanna hear your opinion about this.
I talk about it a bit in my valonqar video
@@QuinnTheGM Find it. Very interesting. Thank you.
Alternative theory just by factor of cool :
Jon con discovers the Aegon is a fake while Aegon and Dany have a dance of the dragons above kingslanding, all the while the bells are ringing around him which causes him to snap and use the scorpio which he was aiming at dany to kill the dragon aegon is riding causing them to fall down and as shown in HotD explode igniting the caches of wildfire which dany is blamed for as people think she killed the dragon and caused it to fall.
I agree a lot of things in the show will probably happen in the books, but the difference will be proper build up to the plot points and not half baked ideas and the characters conviently forgetting their character traits
Little bits of other plot threads from the show point towards your take as well. Like the Tarlys weirdly supporting the Lannisters in the show. It would make a lot of sense if they support Aegon. I still think it's possible Jaime and Cersi die in Kings Landing if they are imprisoned by Aegon if he takes over.
What sets jon conn off could be if aegon approaches a dragon and is immediately killed by it. That would put his Targaryen lineage into question as well as getting rid of him.
I think the key bit of nuance that separates the show canon from the possible book canon is the *appearance* of Dany going mad. She might not literally snap, but I could see a patriarchal society like Westeros drumming her up as being insane and turning on her as a result.
Ive always thoguht the bells sounding on Faegon's death would be the last straw for Jon .
I disagree that Daenerys X Aegon will be after the Long Night, it makes more sense to be before/during the Long Night. It doesn't make sense for Bran to be king after a Targaryen fight, but it makes a lot of sense for him to be king after the Long Night.
Bran will be a greenseer king and sit on the weirwood throne. It makes little to no sense in having an impotant man, not of the blood royal, sitting on the iron throne. If that is actually George's ending, I would be thoroughly disappointed.
As for the next dance, I do believe it will be post long night, as it will imitate the scouring of the shire or battle of five armies from Tolkien. This will fit George's overall theme with people coming together to defeat a common enemy, only to fall back into infighting and war the moment the threat passes.
It's crazy that only 2 of the episodes are rated as 'bad' in that graphic
I think most of us book readers would be way harsher and we probably have a pretty distorted view of that TV show compared to TV only viewers