@@jeffmoore9915 as a viewer often included in the "everyone" cohort, might I just say that I appreciate you making this comment on behalf of well...everyone! Thanks a bunch Jeff
Feel free to speak for me sir. I'm everyone, as well as everyone who doesn't know what they're missing or the illiterate. I've heard so many people say it's a slog to read and it's "boring" and "tedious"... are those possibly synonyms? Fuck it. I'll say it anyway. The only chapters I wish I could skip are Sansa and sometimes Dany. But I'm a goddamn reader and I don't skip chapters, believe that! Oh my brotha! Testify!!!
It’s a great point that Robert makes at 6:20 that the oldest starts being built at the bottom of the crypt and then the newest being close to the surface now operates as a kind of spooky countdown. What foresight they must have had to know how much space they would need until the next Long Night!
I always thought that was such an odd detail GRRM included... does none of the Starks question it? Is there a grand plan that only the Lords/Kings of Winter knew about that was never relayed to the current cast? Like what if Rickon Stark knew, told Brandon, but it was never told to Ned and, by approximation, to us?
@@WlatPziupp Weirwood paste adds great mouthfeel and you'd be surprised how much protein! It's like eating a big T-bone steak but totally vegan. A superfood!
One thing missing from the analysis is that not only did the Kings of Winter have a statue, but each statue has a sword. Having a living Stark at Winterfell means that there is a Stark to command the defenses of Winterfell in a time of need. Martin is a Tolkien fan and I can see him setting up a Stark leading an army of the dead Kings of Winterfell in battle to defend the North.
That seems consistent with the "logic" of magic in asoiaf as I've taken it. Now if the dead rose and left....that might break the oath. Perhaps that is a primary weapon of the Other. The ability to force the Starks to leave Winterfell and break the warding. Might be that's why dragon eggs are hidden in the collapsed section of the Crypts, as part of the pact of Ice and Fire , balancing the forces of nature
It's not, There Are Always Starks in Winterfell, the quote is....There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. We're trying to figure out why. OK, now you're up to speed.
@@Scott-po6go Hi Scott i don't think they meant it to be a direct quotation from the text. Unless people just don't know to use quotation marks anymore! Who can tell?!
Kinda odd that the crypt has been somewhat blocked by a cave in. None of the other creations of Brandon the builder's has been shown any signs of decay over the hundreds of years of use
I seem to recall reading about a Theorie that it was no cave in but that someone sealed the lower parts of the crypt, but im not sure anymore who or why ....but i guess IDG will tpuch on that in some lstere video
@@Glitsch99I also recall that it seemed intentional. That they were "sealed." I think the lack of who or why lends people to think it was accental or naturally caused. It wasn't stated as being either. Btw, a collapse might also be intentional if a method is not given.
The Others only started marching south after Bran & Rickon abandoned Winterfell... Maybe there's a magical connection that prevented the Others from leaving The Land of Always Winter as long as there was a Stark in Winterfell
As early as the first Prologue chapter, the Others have invaded or at least "raided" wildling already. Granted, Bran and Rickon leaving the WInterfell coincides with Night's Watch being decimated at the Fist of the First Men.
Perhaps not keeping the Others in the Land of Always Winter, or stopping them coming south of The Wall, but maybe the Stark's presence in Winterfell is required for a pact binding and holding something imprisoned beneath the castle and crypts. It could be that in the Battle for the Dawn long ago, Winter itself fell here, and was trapped in this spot. Bound in place by the blood of the Starks, they are required to have a living family member at this site at all times. The crypts and castle grew up on this place, keeping the name 'Winterfell' but the reason was long forgotten, the secret was not passed on in all those years. If not lost when Lord Rickon and his heir Brandon died, then it was lost earlier in the ages during one of the many conflicts. But now Bran & Rickon have left, and for the first time there are no living Starks in Winterfell. The effects are manifest - further north, at the Wall, conditions are cold, but not too bad, and Stannis is able to march his men meet the Mountain Clans, to take Deep Wood Mott and men from the Karhold can ride to the Wall without trouble. But down south, in the area around Winterfell, extreme winter conditions seem to have developed. Snow so deep that Theon and Jayne can survive jumping off the battlements. Snow so cold and icy that Stannis cannot march any further south, and even Roose Bolton fears the cold and starvation in Winterfell that he has had to send out both the Freys and the Manderlays. Why so cold here and not at the Wall? Almost as if something at Winterfell is causing this unnatural cold . . .
My favorite IDG videos have been the historical videos about the Starks and their connection to the Others (dark secrets of winter fell, will the statues come to life, etc.). I am psyched for this series!
I wonder if the Starks are meant to connect to the Godwood through the crypts. After thousands of years, surely that weirwood's roots reach down into the crypts. Maybe originally, a Stark was always connected to the weirwood there, and it was thought that there always must be a spare so that there is always a greenseer in Winterfell. And maybe the weirwood touches or interacts with the spirits of those buried in Winterfell, and preserves their memories. Maybe this was once how the Starks stayed in touch with the Children of the Forest, and maybe it will be where God-King Bran rules from.
You are assuming the First Keep came after the Andals because it utilized round stone structures, as according to the Maesters the Andals were the first ones to make rounded towers and walls; but this was very specifically added to show how unreliable the Maester's version of history was. Andalos, or the area they claimed was Andalos, has no stone ruins or examples of Andal architecture at all. In no history is any building noted to have been built by the Andals in Andalos, not a single stone structure remained even centuries before the story began. Storm's End was built by Bran the Builder, it had a huge circular curtain wall and round drum tower in the center; all of it was "so cunningly put together that not the slightest wind could find a hold to tear at the structure, not even a shadow could slip through for their were no cracks nor gaps to be found. Even after 8,000 years, it showed no wear and had never needed repairs. Still as strong and durable as the day the stones were first laid". The Hightower is another example of Bran utilizing rounded stone structures, as it is in effect a massive lighthouse that serves as a beacon to "light the way". Funny how these are all First Men structures when according to the Maesters the First Men did not have the intelligence or skill to do so (being stupid, unwashed heathens without education....ignoring that the Citadel was founded and built by the First Men, as was the Order of Maesters), yet obviously did have the intellect and the skill many thousands of years before the Andals even existed. In fact, we are introduced to the descriptions of Winterfell's First Keep and Storm's End long before the opinion of "factual history" written by the Maesters. Now, where in Andalos are the examples of the Andal's skill at building? There aren't any. Not one foundation, not one cut stone remains stacked onto another that has lasted until any Westerosi explorer could note down their presence. The Maesters also claim the First Men had no written language, yet why build such a massive library or an order of scholars and knowledge keepers if there is no knowledge to keep? The First Men had not only a written form of the Old Tongue, they had two of them! One for everyday use, the other for enchantments; the set of bronze runic armor used by the Lord of House Royce is still being worn thousands of years after it was forged. The First of the First Men is covered in runes, as is the Nightfort. Oh, but the Andals brought steel with them that the First Men could not create? Incorrect. "Dragonsteel" is noted in the library of Castle Black as a weapon of the First Men, so while they did not have an understanding of mundane steel they did apparantly have a superior version available albeit one that was much rarer and for them to even distinguish the difference between Dragonsteel and regular steel displays they had knowledge of how to create steel but preferred bronze over iron or steel for most of their weapons/armor. Give me an example of Andal steel. Where in the history of Essos did they use steel weapons and armor against their enemies? What other culture remembered fighting the Andals at all? No, I think the original Arryns or whomever ruled the Vale before the Andals had been the main forgers of steel which is why the Andals attacked them first. The Maesters also claim the Andals were a "fair haired, tall, and strong people of fierce warriors" yet you can't find an Andal house with blond hair; all of them have dark hair. The South is full of brunettes, but North of the Wall we have Val and Yggritte. No one can note a single significant battle with the Andals before Westeros and the area of Essos they claim was Andalos isn't known for having blondes in, from, or even near that area at all. If the Andals were so advanced and fearsome then surely their neighbors would recall a single battle or building, yet no one there even remembers them having been there. No artifacts, no battles, and no note of "hey, weird blond fanatic with a star carved on their forehead bought some grain for a long trip across the ocean" from any Essosi histories in the Free Cities. The Maesters claim they were nomadic, but nomads DO NOT build permanent structure because by definition they are always on the move. We know the Andals were fanatics of the Faith, completely intolerant of any other religion yet they would've been surrounded by "heathens" wherever they went in Andalos; "heathens" they could not defeat, "heathens" who considered them so insignificant that no one even noted down their presence. Strange that Valyrian is so common a written and spoken language, even taught by the Maesters to their charges, yet not a single history book written by a Valyrian exists in Westeros. It is almost as if the Citadel is afraid of what the Valyrians may say about the Andal version of history.
id imagine the maesters wouldnt like the first men much. theyre too close with the children of the forest who are too close with magic and the maesters are jealous af of magic. they prefer the andals and their seven pointed star, which up until now in the series hasnt shows itself to have magical muscles to flex
while I agree almost entirely with the excellent points you've made, I do want to push back against one (admittedly minor) point: "no one can note a single battle or building". I can recall one specific exception: the Scouring of Lorath and the events preceding it. Basically: some Andal king conquers Lorath and declares it the seat of his new kingdom, and seeks to expand his realm by putting isolated Norvos under siege. The Freehold sent a force of dragonriders to defend their colony, immediately burnt the king and his army to a crisp upon their arrival - from there they continued north to Lorath, burnt the king's keep to the ground and wiped out all surviving Lorathi Andals. While we learn this from A World of Ice and Fire, it's source is an in-universe text named "Fires of the Freehold", a history of Valyria written by a man named Galendro (note no Maester title accompanying his name). Galendro is implied to be an Essosi source because the text in AWOIAF clarifies (paraphrasing here, i don't have the book in front of me) "no complete copy is known to exist in Westeros" and the Citadel's copy is missing several huge sections - which reeks of maesterly censorship anyway yeah this was probably an isolated/divergent group of Andals unrelated to those who would later invade Westeros (especially on account of, you know, they all died) but technically we have one Essosi history mentioning one group of settled Andals fighting one battle! (mostly just pointing this out to you so someone with a thick skull doesn't point it out themselves and try to act like it disproves literally any other part of your argument lol)
The mystery of why there must be a Stark in Winterfell is as deep as the Crypts! Very interesting topic my Lord. About 8:30 in, reminding me of the end of ACOK when Bran and the gang are headed north after escaping Winterfell. They see it burning, the glass gardens shattered and smoke billowing out. Bran does not despair though, instead reflecting that he's still alive. The Crypts or death has 'paid' for their lives in a way, despite being a repository for the dead. While the "new" castle and its more modern, southron additions like the glass gardens lie in desolation, the true heart of Winterfell is still there.
6:30 Or like many ancient buildings in the real world, new layers were built on top of old layers, while old layers sunk into the ground. So the deepest layers of the crypt were originally the only layers of the crypt.
I find it interesting that Jon feels he doesnt belong there but at the same time has some of the most vivid visons/dreams of the crypts. Maybe its not he doesn't belong but he feels like that because it was beat into him that he wasnt an actual stark
i remember from the books, there were lines written about the deep hot springs which begat the place. (that myth seen in several elder songs .) other lines were about when the dragons visited (from harrenhall?), and went deep- implying there may have been dragon eggs laid deep in winterfell.
There's some language at the beginning of the Bran chapter that describes what they see after coming out of the crypts that kinda supports the idea of dragons. The beginning of that chapter is from Summer's perspective, and Martin describes a firey serpent with wings flying up from the ruins of Winterfell.
If the TV version is to be believed, the moment there's no living Stark in Winterfell, the White Walkers started moving to the wall, so there's THAT. sht definitely happened
I've always felt that the Winterfell crypts were a tomb/prison. The myth is that the Night's King was a Stark who fell in love with a female other. Night's King and Night's Queen then apparently made sacrifices to the Others until Joramun led the freefolk and a Stark led the northmen to defeat them. We're told the Night's King was killed, but we hear nothing about what happened to Night's Queen, even though she'd be the more interesting character of the two as the only female other we've heard of. The Night's King's name was then lost to memory, perhaps because the Starks wanted it that way. If we invert the myth, such that Night's Queen is the Stark and the Night's King is the other, this echoes Lyana, Rhaegar so well. Someone magical (Rhaegar as a Targaryen; Night's King as an Other) has a relationship with a Stark daughter (Lyana; Night's Queen) that triggers a war (Robert's Rebellion; long night fight against the Others), killing the Stark daughter, and producing offspring with secret parentage (John as Ned's bastard rather than Lyana and Rhaegar's child; a child of the Stark daughter and the Night's king who was taken back to Winterfell to be the first king of winter). This would explain why we don't know what happened to the Night's Queen (to bury the lede, the Starks deliberately changed the "naughty" Stark from male to female) and why the deepest part of the crypts is collapsed (they brought the Stark daughter back after she died but didn't want people to know she begat half-other children; just like how Ned brought Lyana back north to bury her in the crypt and kept from everyone that Lyana begat John). It would make even more sense if the Others are coming back because they want to reclaim their King's bride.
I think one person IS aware of the magical need of a Stark in Winterfell - Roose Bolton. I think Roose is purposefully breaking magical law to some end we won't see until Winds. In addition to choosing to occupy Winterfell, he made special effort to hold Harrenhal, he orchestrated and took part in the largest breaking of guest right in Westerosi history, he personally killed his king, he lied in front of a heart tree, and he has eaten of the flesh of man. I think a personal breaking of guest right, as well as kinslaying, are in his future before he dies.
It's a very well documented fact in the lore of Winterfell: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers. First come, first serve, and the most important... King of the hill. Because of this, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.
Yea, everyone has their fantastical theories and that's all well and good but it could also just be boiled down to the pragmatic approach of "We should keep a member of our house inside the castle cuz it's...y'know...the seat of our power"
It has to be some kind of spell catalyst, no? Like what the wall does; but somehow also dependent on the weirwood tree. Generation after generation of Starks buried deep below ground with old, old blood running in their veins even as it turns dust. It also acts as a calendar, which is a crazy concept-- a calendar that is running out soon, and I think, foretells that Winterfell might not exist in its current capacity much longer.
I just found this channel. I've read the books two or three times and I've never caught half of what you bring up. Truly a UA-cam gem! So excited to see more. As for why? Well, my only thought is that if you're correct and Winterfell of old is the crypt, that all Starks must be buried there, and that the statues are significant... Well, the Others animate the dead as well. Could this be a response to that power of some kind? I doubt we'll see an army of dead Starks march up from there, but a field of peaceful death perhaps? That combined with the greenhouse and warm waters would certainly make for an excellent stop-gap against an army of the dead.
This series man… ongoing for 30 years and I myself study it for like 10 and STILL there are new ideas and concepts and theories I never even thought about!! Like a bottomless pitt and the deeper one sinks the deeper the Lore spreads. I so hope G.R.R will finish the series so we may connect the dots to a satisfying conclusion and may understand its deeper themes.
Could be a pact with the others, or a pact with the old gods, or both. Might be just a spooky saying. Either way the stark heritage is definitely some of the most interesting lore of the song. Looking forward to this series
The very fact that the crypts are relatively limited bespeaks the fact that there was a predetermined limit on when the pact would need to be kept. Others have pointed out that the cave in is unusual due to the structures built by bran the builder, having no other known cases of becoming damaged over time. From the beginning if the books, the others or whitewalkers had already returned, so the absence of starks in winterfell could not have been the catalyst of their return. It is perhaps likely that in the books, the crypts themselves contain something related to the white walker's.
Storms end was also a round tower and was built by Bran the Builder too just like the First Keep, couldn’t Bran the Builder have been a Greenseer and have knowledge from beyond his timespan through the trees?
I think there is a good chance that the blizzard we see in ADWD is centered on Winterfell, so it is possible that by breaking the pact, the weather (and winter) is worse than it normally is, which is no mean feat. I bet the Werewood was what recognized the dissolution of the agreement when Luwin died (and went into the tree). Perhaps there will be a way to "renew" the pact if the Starks can regain the castle.
Because of the pact Torrhen Stark made with Aegon the Conqueror that united them to protect the living from the White Walkers. Many try to unite their houses through marriage to royalty, but since a Stark must always remain at Winterfell to vigilantly stand guard for the day when the White Walkers return, no such union would be needed with the Targaryens. The true Targaryen heir would always understand the Starks are strongly trusted allies who believed Aegon’s dream, to do them no harm, help them in any way they need and when the day does come the Targaryen heir will trust the Stark Warden and help them with anything they need to protect the living against the White Walkers. But that’s just my opinion based on Aegon definitely mentioning the White Walkers in his dream to Torrhen Stark (since both groups have knowledge of supernatural creatures) and that promise was likely passed down from Stark Warden to Stark Warden and Targaryen ruler to Targaryen heir until some unfortunate passings ended that knowledge being passed down… Despite the specifics of that pact likely being lost, the Stark phrase continued to be passed down as a motto of their presence being important and to always stay vigilant to protect the North.
My theory is the wall and the crypts are magically connected so the Stark in winterfell "guarding" the crypts is a proxy for a guardian of the wall and now that there is no Stark in winterfell it will allow the Walkers to breach the wall. Whadaya think ?
My theory is similar but I think it more there needs to be a living stark in winterfell to keep the dead kings of winter from waking up. I mean if they have white walker blood what would keep them from not coming back that could be the connection or knowledge that their “living” descendants are ok and keeping the line alive. It could also explain the nights king we saw in the show maybe that idea was given earlier and not in the right way. Maybe the whites goal is to go to winterfell to raise their king and take over
Love that you are doing this this has always been my favourite theory topic. So many possible theories Winter-fell where the kings of winter fell, the fact that there is a strong possibility they have white walker blood plus it so convenient that the oldest section is closed off for now possibly that is where all the secrets will be revealed especially if winterfell links to the bloodraven cave and bran uses that to escape
I like the idea that the statues of starks past will animate to defend against the white walkers. I feel like it would have to be some sort of blood magic reasoning as to why there always has to be a stark there. Maybe the spell needs enough starks to die and be buried there to fuel it. Or maybe a living stark needs to be the one to trigger the spell when the time is right. Maybe the weirwood tree and memory plays a role. I’m totally speculating. Which is all we can do unless the story is eventually concluded
It's a bit of a nitpick, but the Wall has been added to in the millennia since Bran the builder, Lord Mormont says in AGOT that when the Watch was better manned every lord Commander would leave the Wall higher than he found it.
Interesting interpretation. Another way to interpret that phrase, there must always be a stark in winterfell, is not that there must be a living stork but that there must be dead Starks in winterfell. That's especially true if winterfell is actually the crypts themselves and not the castle above like you said. So that phrase becomes a truism, there are dead Starks in winterfell so therefore there must always be Starks and winterfell. And why? As you posited in a subsequent video, so that the statues can come to life to fight the white walkers. I suspect that living Stone is stronger than living ice.
It's so good to hear the warmth and enthusiasm return to your voice! It truly shines through that you deeply love aSoIaF and that this topic particularly is close to your heart! Thank you! ♥️
See that doesn't make sense though. If that were the case, then nothing would happen when Bran and Rickon leave. But it does, lots of bad things. The Others. Winter.
I always thought it was because the starks have a big ass sword that can kill the others, and it has been their job for 8,000 years to guard the north against the others. The starks have never failed in this duty. Everybody is terrified of what happens when the others come and there are no Starks in winterfell.
Oh I'm so looking forward to this series. I've loved to speculate wildly about the reasons in the past and am very curious to see where your train of thought will lead!
I believe that the wall has gone through stages of expansion, obviously through the different castles along it but if I’m not mistaken it was made taller over time
I'm fairly new to GOT, and I haven't gotten through all the books yet. I'm about halfway through A Feast For Crows. But I have a thought...... What if Starks can't be turned into Wights? What if they are still undead, but are still in control, like Coldhands. In the show, Benjen Stark is Coldhands, although it is my understanding that the books don't firmly establish that. But it makes sense to me that if the Army of the Dead was moving south, raising the dead as they travel, that it would cause quite a problem if they suddenly raised 4000 Starks that all maintained their original minds, in a double walled, fortified castle. I doubt that I'm the first person to think of this, but whoever thought of it first, I like the idea. 🙂
It always struck me as a very, very ominous warning that every generation of Stark made certain to stress the absolute importance of it yet were unwilling to explain unless they felt it was absolutely necessary; almost as if they knew the children were curious as they had once been curious but regretted that curiosity once they learned the reason and wished they never knew. The point of the line is that there must be terrible repercussions if there is no living Stark in Winterfell, repercussions so horrific that the stress of repeating that line to their children is so obvious on their parent that it frightens even the most willful and hardheaded of the Stark children.
This is excellent Robert. Thank you! Im very excited to see where this goes. How are things going in your quest to redo your old videos? We sure do miss them. They were my first journey into ice and fire youtube and were incredibly thought provoking
The Winterfell crypts are based on the Barrow Tombs in LotR in the Northern Kingdom of Arnor. Likewise the Nights Watch takes many inspirations of the Dunedain Rangers of the North always hunting evil creatures and the old Watch-Tower Hills including Amon Sul that "kept Watch" on the boundary towards the northern evil witch-realm of Angmar, and the vast frozen wastes of the north.
The underground cavern complex is the original Winterfell: like Bloodraven's cave, it would have been a safe place to hide from the Winter cold and the White Walkers, especially if it had a warded entrance. Bodies were kept at the lower layers to keep them from being made into wights. After the Long Night they could safely and comfortably build above ground and what started out as basic survival in the North became a tradition.
This makes me wonder: did the original Starks bury their dead so deep because they were trying to keep the dead away from the living? Could the dead Starks have become Others?
It takes a Stark to control the dead or stop the dead. They will only listen to a stark and they will only follow a Stark Lord. They could Come back to life easily but I think the magic is there for the head of the north to control them. Which is why the Starks and northerners always say the north remembers, there must always be a stark in winterfell, and winter is coming because it is and the dead bring the cold
4:09 you cannot say that the round architecture of the first keep implies after Andals after saying winterfell was built in the time of Bran the builder. Did he not create storms end? Sidenote other cultures used rounded structure also like the rhoynish and valarian
There might still be a Stark in Winterfell. Benjin. He went north to track the previous party we see in the prolog. 300 Nights Watch tracking Benjin himself worked for a time until the trail was lost before Craster's. Possible that he ventured far enough north to get in contact with Bloodraven, CotF, and/or weirwoods and told to turn around to Winterfell. Obviously he knew that Will had run south and was beheaded at Winterfell so following the path of a panicked man with a direwolf (yes) through the wall would be relatively easy. Theon himself encountered a hooded figure at Winterfell after Bran had left that seemed to know of him and who he was. That could easily have been Benjin who came up from the catacombs to scout for food. Bran and Rickon hid in these same catacombs before leaving. Benjin's arrival would allow both of them to head out so that a Stark would remain. Also the hidden way Benjin used to get in could be the path Bran used to get out. Bran did know the grounds for 8-9 years well but Benjin knew them for almost twice that. This could very well be a case of Bran the Greenseer sending instruction back in time for Benjin to help out his younger self. There is strong speculation that he did the same thing with Leaf glamored as Old Nan to tell himself the stories that he needed to hear. So the idea is not that far fetched. This doesn't answer WHY there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, but with this theory, there still is.
Maybe what makes the Stark dead special is that, when made into wights by the Night King, they would only obey a living Stark. So the Night King attacks Winterfell, senses a bunch of corpses to raise under the castle, and accidentally raises an army against himself. That fits the "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" (to command the dead), and the "countdown" idea raised in this video- the freshest and most useful walkers would be first to surface.
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I always suspected that the reason for there always being a Stark in Winterfell and there always being a Stark in The Night's Watch was due to the Starks feeling partly responsible for the Others and, thus, felt obliged to always be there to face whatever dangers or consequences that came as a result. Like maybe they felt it would be dishonorable to not have any skin in the game, so to speak. The idea being that if anybody was going to have to suffer any consequences of the past, they should have to as well.
Oooooh, Robert got my Friday night poppin now. Thanks, Robert!!!! You should try some book narration. You got some pipes on you, and they're one of a kind. Very distinctive, you read me a good night story every night.
Won't pretend it answers your question, but you raise a point (as you point out) rarely considered. What exactly is Winterfell to Bran the Builder? To pose a possible answer I'll not a different reference. Why is Castamere castle called it? Because it's named for the lake it's near. A Fell (among other translations) is a stand of trees, so perhaps it could be suggested that the name would be Winterforest, or something to that effect. In other words, the Godswood was what Brandon the Builder called Winterfell, or the Winter Fell. The castle picked up the name by being near it and later the name of the Godswood was simply forgotten. In that way the phrase would mean "there must always be a Stark near the Godswood." Which brings up another thought I had about the Weirwood. One may fit with how you suggest Brandon sacrificed himself before the tree. That is the tale of the Rat Cook. The tale speaks of a giant white rat that eats it's young. Interestingly, a Heart Tree sort of fits the symbolism. It's a giant white thing, and if Starks were sacrificing themselves to it then in a way it was eating it's young. From a different perspective, the Crypts holding Starks could be symbolically described as swallowing Starks. So the castle is eating its young via the Crypts. The description may be more sound more sinister because it's been cast in form of the Rat Cook story. Elementally it may simply be describing how they heart trees need the family they are bound to "fed" to them. You get a better feeling for that interpretation when you read the description of Jamie's dream. The idea of a monster waiting in the dark to devour Lannisters in their "place." With regard to the Nightfort and the Rat Cook. The mouth of the Weirwood is set within the well in the kitchen. So if the heart tree of the Nightfort is in the kitchen it may make sense for that tree to be considered a "cook". If children were being taken through the Black Gate's mouth then it could be said to be eating young.
As a casual TV viewer, my head canon was always (hoping for) there being some kind of blood oath (or curse) that kept the crypts at peaceful rest. Blood/life magic seemed to me to be emblematic of Martin's predilections. Having legendary warriors and kings rise to aid the living at the opportune moment seemed fitting, and messy... sitting on top of a bomb quite like they did in King's Landing.
10:14 you gave me a thought, as I was totally expecting you to talk about the Nightking....but then never did. But when you spoke of Bloodraven's cave and the similarities between the two weirwoods. What if Winterfell is.....round 2 of whatever it was the children of the forest tried to accomplish in round 1? What if Winterfell was a second attempt?
Because they likely vowed to Aegon the Conqueror that they would stay on guard for the days when the Walkers did return. Winter is Coming and There must always be a Stark at Winterfell were phrases to remind them that they would always be needed at Winterfell and to always be prepared. 🐺
The saying "there must always be a stark in winterfell" feels a lot older then Aegon the Conqueror, but maybe i'm off. Winter is coming is certainly far older than Aegon the conqueror. As the words of House Stark, they go back to brandon the builder and the age of heroes
Jon is just as much a Stark whether his father is Ned or his mother is Lyanna. So if Jon is unwelcome in the crypts, it has nothing to do with the family line or Stark blood. It's all about the last name. 8:06 If Jon's discomfort in the crypts is meant to be a clue, I think it's a pretty strong clue that there is no magical connection between the Starks and Winterfell.
Just a small nit pick, but I'm pretty sure the hightower has been added to/rebuilt multiple times, its the Battle Isle labyrinth made of that weird black stone thats been around longer than anyone knows
@@amandag5072 I don't think it's because he got too rich. I subscribe to the theory that the story has sprawled beyond his reckoning, and he doesn't know how to wrap it up. He's just procrastinating, because the task is too daunting.
@@originalhgcA man has to eat for God's sake. He's just a poor author trying to get by each day, give him some slack. It's not like he made any promises and said his fans could tie him to a chair if it wasn't done by a said date.
@@Scott-po6go do you see anyone strapping him to a chair to make him finish? no, you dont. thats just a stupid response made by stupid people. grrm isnt poor. and he's still writing other books and scripts. he isnt stupid, he knows how to write. he just isnt working on these books. he;ll die from diabetes before he finishes.
Theory: The Starks are descended from The First Men, NOT the Andals. The First Men had been in the North for generations chillin with the Children of the Forest before the Andals came. What if "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell" is part of an agreement they made with The Children of the Forest? Yes, we KINDA know (show canon) that the Children created the Others. But we've also seen they can't control them and seem to live in some level of fear/caution of them. Similar to guard dogs that turn on their Masters. What if the Children made a deal with the first Starks that the Starks being in Winterfell was part of some protectorate agreement to keep the Children safe from the Andals when they showed up?
I've always thought that it hits the name on the head, thats where winter actuallu fell. where the others were first defeated. I also thought it would be cool if in the books the dead Stark kings and lords would rise up as kind of good wights to help fight the others one last time, kind of like the army of the dead in TLOTR.
I don’t think this has been alluded to in any text about Westeros, but the reverse filling of the crypt could make sense if the top level(s) were used as a refuge from particularly harsh winter storms or other purposes. Similar to how burial mounds may have been used for communal gatherings in early settlements.
In my own personal tinfoil, the Hooded Man stalking Winterfell in Theon’s Dance POV is the first of many resurrected Starks to have wandered up out of the tombs. As long as a living Stark heir remained in the castle, the tombs stay quiet, but Bran and Rickon have been gone for an autumn by Dance, and Winter has already come in the North. and hence the Starks rise. just a thought.
Good though, that would be cool. I always liked the idea that the Hooded Man was The Stranger himself made manifest and visiting Winterfell. It's why it's fitting that when he considers taking Theon, and Greyjoy points out he is already suffering under Ramsey, the Hooded Man feels this is suitable punishment. Rather like Death leaving someone to the Devil and not claim them himself.
Perhaps Winterfell was originally the name of the Weirwood/root system/caves/crypt where the Last Hero discovered how to defeat the White Walkers, rather than the name of a castle? "Here is where winter fell" The name of a place, rather than a building..... If the defensive goal was the tree itself, it would explain why the initial above-ground building only happened when the Andals were invading (when the trees were under threat.) Prior to that, with no threat from the south, the Starks focused entirely on the North....creating the wall.... Perhaps the Stark's mission is defense of that specific tree, and the caves/crypts/memories connected to it? That would explain why they have to stay there, at least. Maybe that particular tree is the only one in the whole network that contains the memories/soul of the original Other, and denying access to that specific tree is important because it prevents its reincarnation? It would explain a lot, I think. There's a reason that the show had Winterfell as the final showdown location with the Others....a lot of that stuff was direct from GRRM, even if it ended up getting simplified into oblivion. Winterfell is hugely important. If the original leader of the Others was absorbed back into the Winterfell tree, and his memory erased (Night's King fable), it would explain why the Others are so focused on it. Maybe they need a very specific bloodline that can host that spirit back out of the tree where it's trapped? GRRM loves to riff off of history and myth....I can't help but think of the downfall of Arthur in arthurian legend. Arthur eventually failed due to his interbreeding with his own, separated, bloodline. That sounds a LOT like Jon Snow, being Stark/Targ. It would be so GRRM if he made us love Jon and then he ended up being the host for the ultimate villain.....
The reason why the Sharks are so central to the story is rather obvious, isn’t it? The series is called a Song of Ice and Fire, so narratively having the story underpinned by a perspective that encompasses both the northern threat (the Whitewalkers) and the southern threat (political instability) makes sense. Any other approach risks an unbalanced narrative focused too heavily on either.
With what you said about the crypts, and everyone having their preassigned grave, maybe the fault condition of "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is Benjen not being buried there and not Bran and Rickon leaving the castle. Maybe the prophecy must be interpreted as "if there is a Stark, they must always be buried in Winterfell"?
I've always found the Stark daughters being buried in Winterfell intriguing. They'd be married off to other houses, yet they're still buried in Winterfell? Did no lord want his wife buried at his home, where she presumably spent most of her life? Her children and grandchildren would be of her new house, wouldn't they want their mother near them, in their home? I know the Starks usually married within the North, and Northern lords would probably be more familiar with and respectful of the Stark customs, but Lyanna was going to go to Storms End, and then Sansa to King's Landing, both very much Southern. Imagine if Lyanna had gone to Storms End, as a teenager, and married Robert. If she'd had his children, and lived a long life there. Perhaps Robert had died before her and her son was the Lord of Storms End. Maybe she had many grandchildren, and Storms End was her home now, where her family was. When she died, would her son, the Lord of Storms End, really have wanted to send her North to be buried in Winterfell? I assume she and her children would have visited Winterfell over the years, but it is a very long journey. Would it be up to the Lord of Storms End to send her North? Or the Lord of Winterfell, who by that point could be a nephew or great-nephew, who was born long after she had left, and at best met her a few times? And if Sansa had married Joffrey, she would be queen! For ease, lets imagine Joffrey dies soon after Sansa has his son. She would be a queen, and mother of the King of the Seven Kingdoms. Let us imagine she has a happy life in King's Landing, with her child ruling, and perhaps many grandchildren who adore her, and she is loved by the people of Kings Landing. I'm imagining Good Queen Alysanne levels of love. When she dies, the King, the whole royal family, and Kings Landing itself would all be mourning. Wouldn't a King want his mother interred near him? Would the people want their beloved Queen of decades, now seen as a native of King's Landing, sent away, to the distant North? I'm not sure what my point is. If I just find it impractical, and am questioning how it would work in actuality, if the Starks did marry their daughters to High Lords in the South, or if I just think it's beautiful, that other houses would respect the Stark customs. I imagine a young Lord Stark welcoming his Great-Great Aunt's procession, come all the way up the King's road. She left Winterfell long before he was born, but she is a Stark, and she is home.
Bran the builder also built storms end with its round tower and walls so having round towers shouldn’t conflict with typical architecture styles of the time
The fact they seem to be tagging each other out before going places shows they deeply believe it. It could be a spiritual connection to the region that protects them or maybe just something they have heard passed down but no one knows the source. 🤷 At the end of the day, someone alive and a Stark has to be there and their vigilance is what probably protects the North from White Walkers or other dangers people could shrug off.
Three guarantees in life… death, taxes, and IDG making banger quality fantasy literature content. Your consistency is insane Robert. Thanks for all you do.
The fact that you said this is going to be a series has me so pumped. Thank you Robert. Sincerely, Everyone
@@jeffmoore9915 as a viewer often included in the "everyone" cohort, might I just say that I appreciate you making this comment on behalf of well...everyone! Thanks a bunch Jeff
You don't speak for me Jeff....an fyi I'm actually pissed at my friend Rob, I expect a video a week and sometimes even 2 or 3 videos a week.
@@Scott-po6go funny!
Me too!!
Feel free to speak for me sir. I'm everyone, as well as everyone who doesn't know what they're missing or the illiterate.
I've heard so many people say it's a slog to read and it's "boring" and "tedious"... are those possibly synonyms? Fuck it. I'll say it anyway. The only chapters I wish I could skip are Sansa and sometimes Dany. But I'm a goddamn reader and I don't skip chapters, believe that! Oh my brotha! Testify!!!
It’s a great point that Robert makes at 6:20 that the oldest starts being built at the bottom of the crypt and then the newest being close to the surface now operates as a kind of spooky countdown. What foresight they must have had to know how much space they would need until the next Long Night!
I always thought that was such an odd detail GRRM included... does none of the Starks question it? Is there a grand plan that only the Lords/Kings of Winter knew about that was never relayed to the current cast? Like what if Rickon Stark knew, told Brandon, but it was never told to Ned and, by approximation, to us?
The tree demands perpetual Stark smoothies, chilled and nicely preserved
@@WlatPziupp Weirwood paste adds great mouthfeel and you'd be surprised how much protein! It's like eating a big T-bone steak but totally vegan. A superfood!
Yours is the only Westeros Weekly Email Blast that rates different foods on mouthfeel. 👏🏼
sick sick sick, but so funny...
Smooth. I see what you did there.
One thing missing from the analysis is that not only did the Kings of Winter have a statue, but each statue has a sword. Having a living Stark at Winterfell means that there is a Stark to command the defenses of Winterfell in a time of need. Martin is a Tolkien fan and I can see him setting up a Stark leading an army of the dead Kings of Winterfell in battle to defend the North.
I don't think it's "missing" considering Robert states that the statues will be discussed in a future video.
There are always Starks in Winterfell even after all the living Starks have left. The dead are connected to the land and they are listening.
That seems consistent with the "logic" of magic in asoiaf as I've taken it. Now if the dead rose and left....that might break the oath. Perhaps that is a primary weapon of the Other. The ability to force the Starks to leave Winterfell and break the warding.
Might be that's why dragon eggs are hidden in the collapsed section of the Crypts, as part of the pact of Ice and Fire , balancing the forces of nature
What how do we know dragon eggs are in collapsed crypts
@@bennett420316 We don't but we do know Mushroom *said* there were.
It's not, There Are Always Starks in Winterfell, the quote is....There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. We're trying to figure out why. OK, now you're up to speed.
@@Scott-po6go Hi Scott i don't think they meant it to be a direct quotation from the text. Unless people just don't know to use quotation marks anymore! Who can tell?!
Kinda odd that the crypt has been somewhat blocked by a cave in. None of the other creations of Brandon the builder's has been shown any signs of decay over the hundreds of years of use
I seem to recall reading about a Theorie that it was no cave in but that someone sealed the lower parts of the crypt, but im not sure anymore who or why ....but i guess IDG will tpuch on that in some lstere video
@Glitsch99 I think I heard about it too. If I recall correctly it was to hide the Stark's darker history. Probably something to do with the others
@@NeonAkira it be dragons, boy
@@TimTimTomTom also a valid theory. They do like hot caves
@@Glitsch99I also recall that it seemed intentional. That they were "sealed." I think the lack of who or why lends people to think it was accental or naturally caused. It wasn't stated as being either.
Btw, a collapse might also be intentional if a method is not given.
This was my favorite of your old videos. Thank you for remastering it.
The Others only started marching south after Bran & Rickon abandoned Winterfell... Maybe there's a magical connection that prevented the Others from leaving The Land of Always Winter as long as there was a Stark in Winterfell
It does offer an added layer to being true wardens of the north.
As early as the first Prologue chapter, the Others have invaded or at least "raided" wildling already.
Granted, Bran and Rickon leaving the WInterfell coincides with Night's Watch being decimated at the Fist of the First Men.
Perhaps not keeping the Others in the Land of Always Winter, or stopping them coming south of The Wall, but maybe the Stark's presence in Winterfell is required for a pact binding and holding something imprisoned beneath the castle and crypts.
It could be that in the Battle for the Dawn long ago, Winter itself fell here, and was trapped in this spot. Bound in place by the blood of the Starks, they are required to have a living family member at this site at all times.
The crypts and castle grew up on this place, keeping the name 'Winterfell' but the reason was long forgotten, the secret was not passed on in all those years. If not lost when Lord Rickon and his heir Brandon died, then it was lost earlier in the ages during one of the many conflicts.
But now Bran & Rickon have left, and for the first time there are no living Starks in Winterfell. The effects are manifest - further north, at the Wall, conditions are cold, but not too bad, and Stannis is able to march his men meet the Mountain Clans, to take Deep Wood Mott and men from the Karhold can ride to the Wall without trouble.
But down south, in the area around Winterfell, extreme winter conditions seem to have developed. Snow so deep that Theon and Jayne can survive jumping off the battlements. Snow so cold and icy that Stannis cannot march any further south, and even Roose Bolton fears the cold and starvation in Winterfell that he has had to send out both the Freys and the Manderlays.
Why so cold here and not at the Wall? Almost as if something at Winterfell is causing this unnatural cold . . .
Wasn't the original White Walker a Stark? Does the warding against the WW require someone of Stark blood?
Oh! Or maybe Dunkan left a note in the broom closet for master pycell to read and thats why margery tyrell is actually azor ahai!!!
My favorite IDG videos have been the historical videos about the Starks and their connection to the Others (dark secrets of winter fell, will the statues come to life, etc.). I am psyched for this series!
I wonder if the Starks are meant to connect to the Godwood through the crypts. After thousands of years, surely that weirwood's roots reach down into the crypts. Maybe originally, a Stark was always connected to the weirwood there, and it was thought that there always must be a spare so that there is always a greenseer in Winterfell. And maybe the weirwood touches or interacts with the spirits of those buried in Winterfell, and preserves their memories. Maybe this was once how the Starks stayed in touch with the Children of the Forest, and maybe it will be where God-King Bran rules from.
You are assuming the First Keep came after the Andals because it utilized round stone structures, as according to the Maesters the Andals were the first ones to make rounded towers and walls; but this was very specifically added to show how unreliable the Maester's version of history was. Andalos, or the area they claimed was Andalos, has no stone ruins or examples of Andal architecture at all. In no history is any building noted to have been built by the Andals in Andalos, not a single stone structure remained even centuries before the story began. Storm's End was built by Bran the Builder, it had a huge circular curtain wall and round drum tower in the center; all of it was "so cunningly put together that not the slightest wind could find a hold to tear at the structure, not even a shadow could slip through for their were no cracks nor gaps to be found. Even after 8,000 years, it showed no wear and had never needed repairs. Still as strong and durable as the day the stones were first laid".
The Hightower is another example of Bran utilizing rounded stone structures, as it is in effect a massive lighthouse that serves as a beacon to "light the way". Funny how these are all First Men structures when according to the Maesters the First Men did not have the intelligence or skill to do so (being stupid, unwashed heathens without education....ignoring that the Citadel was founded and built by the First Men, as was the Order of Maesters), yet obviously did have the intellect and the skill many thousands of years before the Andals even existed. In fact, we are introduced to the descriptions of Winterfell's First Keep and Storm's End long before the opinion of "factual history" written by the Maesters.
Now, where in Andalos are the examples of the Andal's skill at building? There aren't any. Not one foundation, not one cut stone remains stacked onto another that has lasted until any Westerosi explorer could note down their presence. The Maesters also claim the First Men had no written language, yet why build such a massive library or an order of scholars and knowledge keepers if there is no knowledge to keep? The First Men had not only a written form of the Old Tongue, they had two of them! One for everyday use, the other for enchantments; the set of bronze runic armor used by the Lord of House Royce is still being worn thousands of years after it was forged. The First of the First Men is covered in runes, as is the Nightfort.
Oh, but the Andals brought steel with them that the First Men could not create? Incorrect. "Dragonsteel" is noted in the library of Castle Black as a weapon of the First Men, so while they did not have an understanding of mundane steel they did apparantly have a superior version available albeit one that was much rarer and for them to even distinguish the difference between Dragonsteel and regular steel displays they had knowledge of how to create steel but preferred bronze over iron or steel for most of their weapons/armor. Give me an example of Andal steel. Where in the history of Essos did they use steel weapons and armor against their enemies? What other culture remembered fighting the Andals at all? No, I think the original Arryns or whomever ruled the Vale before the Andals had been the main forgers of steel which is why the Andals attacked them first. The Maesters also claim the Andals were a "fair haired, tall, and strong people of fierce warriors" yet you can't find an Andal house with blond hair; all of them have dark hair. The South is full of brunettes, but North of the Wall we have Val and Yggritte.
No one can note a single significant battle with the Andals before Westeros and the area of Essos they claim was Andalos isn't known for having blondes in, from, or even near that area at all. If the Andals were so advanced and fearsome then surely their neighbors would recall a single battle or building, yet no one there even remembers them having been there. No artifacts, no battles, and no note of "hey, weird blond fanatic with a star carved on their forehead bought some grain for a long trip across the ocean" from any Essosi histories in the Free Cities. The Maesters claim they were nomadic, but nomads DO NOT build permanent structure because by definition they are always on the move. We know the Andals were fanatics of the Faith, completely intolerant of any other religion yet they would've been surrounded by "heathens" wherever they went in Andalos; "heathens" they could not defeat, "heathens" who considered them so insignificant that no one even noted down their presence.
Strange that Valyrian is so common a written and spoken language, even taught by the Maesters to their charges, yet not a single history book written by a Valyrian exists in Westeros. It is almost as if the Citadel is afraid of what the Valyrians may say about the Andal version of history.
id imagine the maesters wouldnt like the first men much. theyre too close with the children of the forest who are too close with magic and the maesters are jealous af of magic. they prefer the andals and their seven pointed star, which up until now in the series hasnt shows itself to have magical muscles to flex
while I agree almost entirely with the excellent points you've made, I do want to push back against one (admittedly minor) point: "no one can note a single battle or building". I can recall one specific exception: the Scouring of Lorath and the events preceding it. Basically: some Andal king conquers Lorath and declares it the seat of his new kingdom, and seeks to expand his realm by putting isolated Norvos under siege. The Freehold sent a force of dragonriders to defend their colony, immediately burnt the king and his army to a crisp upon their arrival - from there they continued north to Lorath, burnt the king's keep to the ground and wiped out all surviving Lorathi Andals.
While we learn this from A World of Ice and Fire, it's source is an in-universe text named "Fires of the Freehold", a history of Valyria written by a man named Galendro (note no Maester title accompanying his name). Galendro is implied to be an Essosi source because the text in AWOIAF clarifies (paraphrasing here, i don't have the book in front of me) "no complete copy is known to exist in Westeros" and the Citadel's copy is missing several huge sections - which reeks of maesterly censorship
anyway yeah this was probably an isolated/divergent group of Andals unrelated to those who would later invade Westeros (especially on account of, you know, they all died) but technically we have one Essosi history mentioning one group of settled Andals fighting one battle!
(mostly just pointing this out to you so someone with a thick skull doesn't point it out themselves and try to act like it disproves literally any other part of your argument lol)
Ummm…could you say that all again, slowly
So glad you're doing this kind of content. I really miss the travellers guide to Westeros
YES!!! I miss them, too. And the Travelllers Guide to Essos. Where did those videos go?
@@cosmopeaches2604 I know! They used to help me relax when I couldn't sleep - there was something very comforting about them
The mystery of why there must be a Stark in Winterfell is as deep as the Crypts! Very interesting topic my Lord.
About 8:30 in, reminding me of the end of ACOK when Bran and the gang are headed north after escaping Winterfell. They see it burning, the glass gardens shattered and smoke billowing out. Bran does not despair though, instead reflecting that he's still alive. The Crypts or death has 'paid' for their lives in a way, despite being a repository for the dead. While the "new" castle and its more modern, southron additions like the glass gardens lie in desolation, the true heart of Winterfell is still there.
6:30 Or like many ancient buildings in the real world, new layers were built on top of old layers, while old layers sunk into the ground. So the deepest layers of the crypt were originally the only layers of the crypt.
The crypt being built bottom up is one of the most intriguing aspects of the North.
The crypts of Winterfell are certainly intriguing. Thank you, Robert, great video.
Pumped for this series, I’ve been wondering about it for a while - it feels like the Starks have forgotten most of what the North must remember.
I find it interesting that Jon feels he doesnt belong there but at the same time has some of the most vivid visons/dreams of the crypts. Maybe its not he doesn't belong but he feels like that because it was beat into him that he wasnt an actual stark
i remember from the books, there were lines written about the deep hot springs which begat the place. (that myth seen in several elder songs .) other lines were about when the dragons visited (from harrenhall?), and went deep- implying there may have been dragon eggs laid deep in winterfell.
There's some language at the beginning of the Bran chapter that describes what they see after coming out of the crypts that kinda supports the idea of dragons. The beginning of that chapter is from Summer's perspective, and Martin describes a firey serpent with wings flying up from the ruins of Winterfell.
The crypt under the tree thing reminds me of the Erdtree and the Erdtree burials. Let’s just say GRRM likes to draw inspiration from the same place
If the TV version is to be believed, the moment there's no living Stark in Winterfell, the White Walkers started moving to the wall, so there's THAT.
sht definitely happened
I've always felt that the Winterfell crypts were a tomb/prison. The myth is that the Night's King was a Stark who fell in love with a female other. Night's King and Night's Queen then apparently made sacrifices to the Others until Joramun led the freefolk and a Stark led the northmen to defeat them. We're told the Night's King was killed, but we hear nothing about what happened to Night's Queen, even though she'd be the more interesting character of the two as the only female other we've heard of. The Night's King's name was then lost to memory, perhaps because the Starks wanted it that way.
If we invert the myth, such that Night's Queen is the Stark and the Night's King is the other, this echoes Lyana, Rhaegar so well. Someone magical (Rhaegar as a Targaryen; Night's King as an Other) has a relationship with a Stark daughter (Lyana; Night's Queen) that triggers a war (Robert's Rebellion; long night fight against the Others), killing the Stark daughter, and producing offspring with secret parentage (John as Ned's bastard rather than Lyana and Rhaegar's child; a child of the Stark daughter and the Night's king who was taken back to Winterfell to be the first king of winter). This would explain why we don't know what happened to the Night's Queen (to bury the lede, the Starks deliberately changed the "naughty" Stark from male to female) and why the deepest part of the crypts is collapsed (they brought the Stark daughter back after she died but didn't want people to know she begat half-other children; just like how Ned brought Lyana back north to bury her in the crypt and kept from everyone that Lyana begat John). It would make even more sense if the Others are coming back because they want to reclaim their King's bride.
Every time I hear “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell” I think of Cold Comfort Farm and the line “ I saw something nasty in the woodshed” 😂
I think one person IS aware of the magical need of a Stark in Winterfell - Roose Bolton. I think Roose is purposefully breaking magical law to some end we won't see until Winds. In addition to choosing to occupy Winterfell, he made special effort to hold Harrenhal, he orchestrated and took part in the largest breaking of guest right in Westerosi history, he personally killed his king, he lied in front of a heart tree, and he has eaten of the flesh of man. I think a personal breaking of guest right, as well as kinslaying, are in his future before he dies.
It's a very well documented fact in the lore of Winterfell: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers. First come, first serve, and the most important... King of the hill.
Because of this, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.
Yea, everyone has their fantastical theories and that's all well and good but it could also just be boiled down to the pragmatic approach of "We should keep a member of our house inside the castle cuz it's...y'know...the seat of our power"
I can't understand what people see in the Targaryens, the Starks are, to me, the most fascinating of them all.
Fascinating the Starks are but more fascinating are Targaryens and all of old Valeria.
@@fintheiferValyria*
@@profesorstevabakmaz4822 thanks mate
It has to be some kind of spell catalyst, no? Like what the wall does; but somehow also dependent on the weirwood tree. Generation after generation of Starks buried deep below ground with old, old blood running in their veins even as it turns dust. It also acts as a calendar, which is a crazy concept-- a calendar that is running out soon, and I think, foretells that Winterfell might not exist in its current capacity much longer.
I just found this channel. I've read the books two or three times and I've never caught half of what you bring up. Truly a UA-cam gem! So excited to see more.
As for why? Well, my only thought is that if you're correct and Winterfell of old is the crypt, that all Starks must be buried there, and that the statues are significant... Well, the Others animate the dead as well. Could this be a response to that power of some kind? I doubt we'll see an army of dead Starks march up from there, but a field of peaceful death perhaps? That combined with the greenhouse and warm waters would certainly make for an excellent stop-gap against an army of the dead.
Funny- I thought that saying was referring specifically to the the dead Starks having to lay at rest at Winterfell. Eternity through a sacred pact.
This series man… ongoing for 30 years and I myself study it for like 10 and STILL there are new ideas and concepts and theories I never even thought about!!
Like a bottomless pitt and the deeper one sinks the deeper the Lore spreads.
I so hope G.R.R will finish the series so we may connect the dots to a satisfying conclusion and may understand its deeper themes.
Could be a pact with the others, or a pact with the old gods, or both. Might be just a spooky saying. Either way the stark heritage is definitely some of the most interesting lore of the song. Looking forward to this series
The very fact that the crypts are relatively limited bespeaks the fact that there was a predetermined limit on when the pact would need to be kept. Others have pointed out that the cave in is unusual due to the structures built by bran the builder, having no other known cases of becoming damaged over time. From the beginning if the books, the others or whitewalkers had already returned, so the absence of starks in winterfell could not have been the catalyst of their return. It is perhaps likely that in the books, the crypts themselves contain something related to the white walker's.
Storms end was also a round tower and was built by Bran the Builder too just like the First Keep, couldn’t Bran the Builder have been a Greenseer and have knowledge from beyond his timespan through the trees?
I think there is a good chance that the blizzard we see in ADWD is centered on Winterfell, so it is possible that by breaking the pact, the weather (and winter) is worse than it normally is, which is no mean feat. I bet the Werewood was what recognized the dissolution of the agreement when Luwin died (and went into the tree). Perhaps there will be a way to "renew" the pact if the Starks can regain the castle.
Doesn't sound good for Rickon.
Quite disappointed that the blizzard was no mentioned in this video tbh
Because of the pact Torrhen Stark made with Aegon the Conqueror that united them to protect the living from the White Walkers. Many try to unite their houses through marriage to royalty, but since a Stark must always remain at Winterfell to vigilantly stand guard for the day when the White Walkers return, no such union would be needed with the Targaryens.
The true Targaryen heir would always understand the Starks are strongly trusted allies who believed Aegon’s dream, to do them no harm, help them in any way they need and when the day does come the Targaryen heir will trust the Stark Warden and help them with anything they need to protect the living against the White Walkers.
But that’s just my opinion based on Aegon definitely mentioning the White Walkers in his dream to Torrhen Stark (since both groups have knowledge of supernatural creatures) and that promise was likely passed down from Stark Warden to Stark Warden and Targaryen ruler to Targaryen heir until some unfortunate passings ended that knowledge being passed down… Despite the specifics of that pact likely being lost, the Stark phrase continued to be passed down as a motto of their presence being important and to always stay vigilant to protect the North.
You don’t need to be a Stark to hold the North against the White Walkers
@@TETASARAIVACS The Stark's political views are deeply rooted in guarding the north against the White Walkers, unlike any other houses in the north
Fire and blood never refers to aegons dream
There must always be a Robert in In Deep Geek.
My theory is the wall and the crypts are magically connected so the Stark in winterfell "guarding" the crypts is a proxy for a guardian of the wall and now that there is no Stark in winterfell it will allow the Walkers to breach the wall.
Whadaya think ?
Yeah, and dead starks are fueling the Wall.
Yes.
My theory is similar but I think it more there needs to be a living stark in winterfell to keep the dead kings of winter from waking up. I mean if they have white walker blood what would keep them from not coming back that could be the connection or knowledge that their “living” descendants are ok and keeping the line alive. It could also explain the nights king we saw in the show maybe that idea was given earlier and not in the right way. Maybe the whites goal is to go to winterfell to raise their king and take over
Love that you are doing this this has always been my favourite theory topic. So many possible theories Winter-fell where the kings of winter fell, the fact that there is a strong possibility they have white walker blood plus it so convenient that the oldest section is closed off for now possibly that is where all the secrets will be revealed especially if winterfell links to the bloodraven cave and bran uses that to escape
I like the idea that the statues of starks past will animate to defend against the white walkers. I feel like it would have to be some sort of blood magic reasoning as to why there always has to be a stark there. Maybe the spell needs enough starks to die and be buried there to fuel it. Or maybe a living stark needs to be the one to trigger the spell when the time is right. Maybe the weirwood tree and memory plays a role. I’m totally speculating. Which is all we can do unless the story is eventually concluded
So irritating that we forget Jon also is a Stark. Just like Rhaenyra's children also were Targaryens.
It's a bit of a nitpick, but the Wall has been added to in the millennia since Bran the builder, Lord Mormont says in AGOT that when the Watch was better manned every lord Commander would leave the Wall higher than he found it.
Interesting interpretation. Another way to interpret that phrase, there must always be a stark in winterfell, is not that there must be a living stork but that there must be dead Starks in winterfell. That's especially true if winterfell is actually the crypts themselves and not the castle above like you said. So that phrase becomes a truism, there are dead Starks in winterfell so therefore there must always be Starks and winterfell. And why? As you posited in a subsequent video, so that the statues can come to life to fight the white walkers. I suspect that living Stone is stronger than living ice.
this is a great ideo for videos. i love the old spooky magic threads woven into ASoIaF
It's so good to hear the warmth and enthusiasm return to your voice! It truly shines through that you deeply love aSoIaF and that this topic particularly is close to your heart! Thank you! ♥️
With the dead Starks in the crypts, there's always a Stark in Winterfell.
See that doesn't make sense though. If that were the case, then nothing would happen when Bran and Rickon leave. But it does, lots of bad things. The Others. Winter.
I always thought it was because the starks have a big ass sword that can kill the others, and it has been their job for 8,000 years to guard the north against the others. The starks have never failed in this duty. Everybody is terrified of what happens when the others come and there are no Starks in winterfell.
Oh I'm so looking forward to this series. I've loved to speculate wildly about the reasons in the past and am very curious to see where your train of thought will lead!
I believe that the wall has gone through stages of expansion, obviously through the different castles along it but if I’m not mistaken it was made taller over time
Just phenomenal, as always.
I'm fairly new to GOT, and I haven't gotten through all the books yet. I'm about halfway through A Feast For Crows. But I have a thought...... What if Starks can't be turned into Wights? What if they are still undead, but are still in control, like Coldhands. In the show, Benjen Stark is Coldhands, although it is my understanding that the books don't firmly establish that. But it makes sense to me that if the Army of the Dead was moving south, raising the dead as they travel, that it would cause quite a problem if they suddenly raised 4000 Starks that all maintained their original minds, in a double walled, fortified castle. I doubt that I'm the first person to think of this, but whoever thought of it first, I like the idea. 🙂
😊😊😊😊😊 Thank you so much for all of your hard work and detailed explanations ❤
Bro this such a good analysis. Like so insightful 💯
I can't wait to see the whole compilation of videos you have planned for this Robert!!!
It always struck me as a very, very ominous warning that every generation of Stark made certain to stress the absolute importance of it yet were unwilling to explain unless they felt it was absolutely necessary; almost as if they knew the children were curious as they had once been curious but regretted that curiosity once they learned the reason and wished they never knew. The point of the line is that there must be terrible repercussions if there is no living Stark in Winterfell, repercussions so horrific that the stress of repeating that line to their children is so obvious on their parent that it frightens even the most willful and hardheaded of the Stark children.
This is excellent Robert. Thank you! Im very excited to see where this goes.
How are things going in your quest to redo your old videos? We sure do miss them. They were my first journey into ice and fire youtube and were incredibly thought provoking
I'm obsessed with the crypts of Winterfell and their Giant statues and iron swords.
The Winterfell crypts are based on the Barrow Tombs in LotR in the Northern Kingdom of Arnor. Likewise the Nights Watch takes many inspirations of the Dunedain Rangers of the North always hunting evil creatures and the old Watch-Tower Hills including Amon Sul that "kept Watch" on the boundary towards the northern evil witch-realm of Angmar, and the vast frozen wastes of the north.
The underground cavern complex is the original Winterfell: like Bloodraven's cave, it would have been a safe place to hide from the Winter cold and the White Walkers, especially if it had a warded entrance. Bodies were kept at the lower layers to keep them from being made into wights. After the Long Night they could safely and comfortably build above ground and what started out as basic survival in the North became a tradition.
This makes me wonder: did the original Starks bury their dead so deep because they were trying to keep the dead away from the living? Could the dead Starks have become Others?
It takes a Stark to control the dead or stop the dead. They will only listen to a stark and they will only follow a Stark Lord. They could
Come back to life easily but I think the magic is there for the head of the north to control them. Which is why the Starks and northerners always say the north remembers, there must always be a stark in winterfell, and winter is coming because it is and the dead bring the cold
4:09 you cannot say that the round architecture of the first keep implies after Andals after saying winterfell was built in the time of Bran the builder. Did he not create storms end? Sidenote other cultures used rounded structure also like the rhoynish and valarian
There might still be a Stark in Winterfell. Benjin.
He went north to track the previous party we see in the prolog. 300 Nights Watch tracking Benjin himself worked for a time until the trail was lost before Craster's.
Possible that he ventured far enough north to get in contact with Bloodraven, CotF, and/or weirwoods and told to turn around to Winterfell. Obviously he knew that Will had run south and was beheaded at Winterfell so following the path of a panicked man with a direwolf (yes) through the wall would be relatively easy.
Theon himself encountered a hooded figure at Winterfell after Bran had left that seemed to know of him and who he was. That could easily have been Benjin who came up from the catacombs to scout for food.
Bran and Rickon hid in these same catacombs before leaving. Benjin's arrival would allow both of them to head out so that a Stark would remain. Also the hidden way Benjin used to get in could be the path Bran used to get out. Bran did know the grounds for 8-9 years well but Benjin knew them for almost twice that.
This could very well be a case of Bran the Greenseer sending instruction back in time for Benjin to help out his younger self. There is strong speculation that he did the same thing with Leaf glamored as Old Nan to tell himself the stories that he needed to hear. So the idea is not that far fetched.
This doesn't answer WHY there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, but with this theory, there still is.
This series seems really interesting, I can't wait to see the rest you have planned!
Maybe what makes the Stark dead special is that, when made into wights by the Night King, they would only obey a living Stark. So the Night King attacks Winterfell, senses a bunch of corpses to raise under the castle, and accidentally raises an army against himself.
That fits the "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" (to command the dead), and the "countdown" idea raised in this video- the freshest and most useful walkers would be first to surface.
I always suspected that the reason for there always being a Stark in Winterfell and there always being a Stark in The Night's Watch was due to the Starks feeling partly responsible for the Others and, thus, felt obliged to always be there to face whatever dangers or consequences that came as a result. Like maybe they felt it would be dishonorable to not have any skin in the game, so to speak. The idea being that if anybody was going to have to suffer any consequences of the past, they should have to as well.
Oooooh, Robert got my Friday night poppin now. Thanks, Robert!!!!
You should try some book narration. You got some pipes on you, and they're one of a kind. Very distinctive, you read me a good night story every night.
great stuff!
Won't pretend it answers your question, but you raise a point (as you point out) rarely considered. What exactly is Winterfell to Bran the Builder? To pose a possible answer I'll not a different reference. Why is Castamere castle called it? Because it's named for the lake it's near. A Fell (among other translations) is a stand of trees, so perhaps it could be suggested that the name would be Winterforest, or something to that effect. In other words, the Godswood was what Brandon the Builder called Winterfell, or the Winter Fell. The castle picked up the name by being near it and later the name of the Godswood was simply forgotten. In that way the phrase would mean "there must always be a Stark near the Godswood."
Which brings up another thought I had about the Weirwood. One may fit with how you suggest Brandon sacrificed himself before the tree. That is the tale of the Rat Cook. The tale speaks of a giant white rat that eats it's young. Interestingly, a Heart Tree sort of fits the symbolism. It's a giant white thing, and if Starks were sacrificing themselves to it then in a way it was eating it's young. From a different perspective, the Crypts holding Starks could be symbolically described as swallowing Starks. So the castle is eating its young via the Crypts. The description may be more sound more sinister because it's been cast in form of the Rat Cook story. Elementally it may simply be describing how they heart trees need the family they are bound to "fed" to them. You get a better feeling for that interpretation when you read the description of Jamie's dream. The idea of a monster waiting in the dark to devour Lannisters in their "place." With regard to the Nightfort and the Rat Cook. The mouth of the Weirwood is set within the well in the kitchen. So if the heart tree of the Nightfort is in the kitchen it may make sense for that tree to be considered a "cook". If children were being taken through the Black Gate's mouth then it could be said to be eating young.
As a casual TV viewer, my head canon was always (hoping for) there being some kind of blood oath (or curse) that kept the crypts at peaceful rest. Blood/life magic seemed to me to be emblematic of Martin's predilections. Having legendary warriors and kings rise to aid the living at the opportune moment seemed fitting, and messy... sitting on top of a bomb quite like they did in King's Landing.
Thanks Robert!
10:14 you gave me a thought, as I was totally expecting you to talk about the Nightking....but then never did. But when you spoke of Bloodraven's cave and the similarities between the two weirwoods. What if Winterfell is.....round 2 of whatever it was the children of the forest tried to accomplish in round 1? What if Winterfell was a second attempt?
That's because the Night King doesn't exist in the books.
Because they likely vowed to Aegon the Conqueror that they would stay on guard for the days when the Walkers did return. Winter is Coming and There must always be a Stark at Winterfell were phrases to remind them that they would always be needed at Winterfell and to always be prepared. 🐺
The saying "there must always be a stark in winterfell" feels a lot older then Aegon the Conqueror, but maybe i'm off. Winter is coming is certainly far older than Aegon the conqueror. As the words of House Stark, they go back to brandon the builder and the age of heroes
Aegon is modern history for the Starks
Jon is just as much a Stark whether his father is Ned or his mother is Lyanna. So if Jon is unwelcome in the crypts, it has nothing to do with the family line or Stark blood. It's all about the last name. 8:06
If Jon's discomfort in the crypts is meant to be a clue, I think it's a pretty strong clue that there is no magical connection between the Starks and Winterfell.
One thing I always wondered is why Benjen Stark joined the Nights Watch.
The tree and the caves under it are what distributes the magic keeping the wall intact. The Starks are the source of the magic.
Just a small nit pick, but I'm pretty sure the hightower has been added to/rebuilt multiple times, its the Battle Isle labyrinth made of that weird black stone thats been around longer than anyone knows
Sadly, we'll never know, given that GRRM has a lot of other things to do before finishing those last two books. A lifetime's worth, apparently.
He won't finish the books. He's had his pay day from the shows. It'll probably be completed by a ghost writer in the future.
@@amandag5072 I don't think it's because he got too rich. I subscribe to the theory that the story has sprawled beyond his reckoning, and he doesn't know how to wrap it up. He's just procrastinating, because the task is too daunting.
@@originalhgcA man has to eat for God's sake. He's just a poor author trying to get by each day, give him some slack. It's not like he made any promises and said his fans could tie him to a chair if it wasn't done by a said date.
@@Scott-po6go do you see anyone strapping him to a chair to make him finish? no, you dont. thats just a stupid response made by stupid people. grrm isnt poor. and he's still writing other books and scripts. he isnt stupid, he knows how to write. he just isnt working on these books. he;ll die from diabetes before he finishes.
@@originalhgc or he lost his magic due to his aging and doesn't know how to write like he used to
Theory: The Starks are descended from The First Men, NOT the Andals. The First Men had been in the North for generations chillin with the Children of the Forest before the Andals came. What if "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell" is part of an agreement they made with The Children of the Forest? Yes, we KINDA know (show canon) that the Children created the Others. But we've also seen they can't control them and seem to live in some level of fear/caution of them. Similar to guard dogs that turn on their Masters. What if the Children made a deal with the first Starks that the Starks being in Winterfell was part of some protectorate agreement to keep the Children safe from the Andals when they showed up?
I've always thought that it hits the name on the head, thats where winter actuallu fell. where the others were first defeated.
I also thought it would be cool if in the books the dead Stark kings and lords would rise up as kind of good wights to help fight the others one last time, kind of like the army of the dead in TLOTR.
great content. got my sub. Looking forward to the rest of the series.
I always share these with my Mom and daughter. I'm trying to get them to READ THE BOOKS. Much love Robert❤️✌🏼🐺
I don’t think this has been alluded to in any text about Westeros, but the reverse filling of the crypt could make sense if the top level(s) were used as a refuge from particularly harsh winter storms or other purposes. Similar to how burial mounds may have been used for communal gatherings in early settlements.
In my own personal tinfoil, the Hooded Man stalking Winterfell in Theon’s Dance POV is the first of many resurrected Starks to have wandered up out of the tombs. As long as a living Stark heir remained in the castle, the tombs stay quiet, but Bran and Rickon have been gone for an autumn by Dance, and Winter has already come in the North. and hence the Starks rise.
just a thought.
Good though, that would be cool. I always liked the idea that the Hooded Man was The Stranger himself made manifest and visiting Winterfell. It's why it's fitting that when he considers taking Theon, and Greyjoy points out he is already suffering under Ramsey, the Hooded Man feels this is suitable punishment. Rather like Death leaving someone to the Devil and not claim them himself.
@@dromankass8655 Now we're talking.
This is a cool idea, but i think that GRRM just wanted to represent a younger Theon as a man that he not recognize himself
It's the blood from the Stark feeding the weirdwood tree, which is feeding the weirdwood network in The North.
I always saw it as a designated survivor situation
David Lightbringer has some great theories on this, mainly that it connects to an ancient pact between the Starks and The Others.
Perhaps Winterfell was originally the name of the Weirwood/root system/caves/crypt where the Last Hero discovered how to defeat the White Walkers, rather than the name of a castle? "Here is where winter fell" The name of a place, rather than a building.....
If the defensive goal was the tree itself, it would explain why the initial above-ground building only happened when the Andals were invading (when the trees were under threat.) Prior to that, with no threat from the south, the Starks focused entirely on the North....creating the wall....
Perhaps the Stark's mission is defense of that specific tree, and the caves/crypts/memories connected to it? That would explain why they have to stay there, at least. Maybe that particular tree is the only one in the whole network that contains the memories/soul of the original Other, and denying access to that specific tree is important because it prevents its reincarnation?
It would explain a lot, I think. There's a reason that the show had Winterfell as the final showdown location with the Others....a lot of that stuff was direct from GRRM, even if it ended up getting simplified into oblivion. Winterfell is hugely important.
If the original leader of the Others was absorbed back into the Winterfell tree, and his memory erased (Night's King fable), it would explain why the Others are so focused on it. Maybe they need a very specific bloodline that can host that spirit back out of the tree where it's trapped?
GRRM loves to riff off of history and myth....I can't help but think of the downfall of Arthur in arthurian legend. Arthur eventually failed due to his interbreeding with his own, separated, bloodline. That sounds a LOT like Jon Snow, being Stark/Targ. It would be so GRRM if he made us love Jon and then he ended up being the host for the ultimate villain.....
The reason why the Sharks are so central to the story is rather obvious, isn’t it? The series is called a Song of Ice and Fire, so narratively having the story underpinned by a perspective that encompasses both the northern threat (the Whitewalkers) and the southern threat (political instability) makes sense. Any other approach risks an unbalanced narrative focused too heavily on either.
i really like this vision, its pretty haunting and interesting. Can't wait to see the following videos about this subject
Is there a mega-dungeon underneath Winterfell?
Should I steal this idea for my campaign?
Definitely going to.
With what you said about the crypts, and everyone having their preassigned grave, maybe the fault condition of "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is Benjen not being buried there and not Bran and Rickon leaving the castle. Maybe the prophecy must be interpreted as "if there is a Stark, they must always be buried in Winterfell"?
I've always found the Stark daughters being buried in Winterfell intriguing. They'd be married off to other houses, yet they're still buried in Winterfell? Did no lord want his wife buried at his home, where she presumably spent most of her life? Her children and grandchildren would be of her new house, wouldn't they want their mother near them, in their home?
I know the Starks usually married within the North, and Northern lords would probably be more familiar with and respectful of the Stark customs, but Lyanna was going to go to Storms End, and then Sansa to King's Landing, both very much Southern.
Imagine if Lyanna had gone to Storms End, as a teenager, and married Robert. If she'd had his children, and lived a long life there. Perhaps Robert had died before her and her son was the Lord of Storms End. Maybe she had many grandchildren, and Storms End was her home now, where her family was. When she died, would her son, the Lord of Storms End, really have wanted to send her North to be buried in Winterfell? I assume she and her children would have visited Winterfell over the years, but it is a very long journey. Would it be up to the Lord of Storms End to send her North? Or the Lord of Winterfell, who by that point could be a nephew or great-nephew, who was born long after she had left, and at best met her a few times?
And if Sansa had married Joffrey, she would be queen! For ease, lets imagine Joffrey dies soon after Sansa has his son. She would be a queen, and mother of the King of the Seven Kingdoms. Let us imagine she has a happy life in King's Landing, with her child ruling, and perhaps many grandchildren who adore her, and she is loved by the people of Kings Landing. I'm imagining Good Queen Alysanne levels of love. When she dies, the King, the whole royal family, and Kings Landing itself would all be mourning. Wouldn't a King want his mother interred near him? Would the people want their beloved Queen of decades, now seen as a native of King's Landing, sent away, to the distant North?
I'm not sure what my point is. If I just find it impractical, and am questioning how it would work in actuality, if the Starks did marry their daughters to High Lords in the South, or if I just think it's beautiful, that other houses would respect the Stark customs. I imagine a young Lord Stark welcoming his Great-Great Aunt's procession, come all the way up the King's road. She left Winterfell long before he was born, but she is a Stark, and she is home.
If I was the one writing the series, I'd have the reason being that it was part of the past that keeps the White Walkers on the other side of the wall
This is a great idea for a series, just when you start to think there's nothing interesting left to say about GOT universe! 😮
I Can’t wait for this series
Bran the builder also built storms end with its round tower and walls so having round towers shouldn’t conflict with typical architecture styles of the time
4:30 maybe old boi bran was inspired by Chongqing in YiTi (😉) no levelling, only making!
The fact they seem to be tagging each other out before going places shows they deeply believe it. It could be a spiritual connection to the region that protects them or maybe just something they have heard passed down but no one knows the source. 🤷 At the end of the day, someone alive and a Stark has to be there and their vigilance is what probably protects the North from White Walkers or other dangers people could shrug off.
Three guarantees in life… death, taxes, and IDG making banger quality fantasy literature content.
Your consistency is insane Robert. Thanks for all you do.
Everyone in Winterfell dies, unless there is a Stark there.