Oooo, thanks! I had a suspicion that Stellantis cars had essentially nothing below zero. I dared to go to 3% only once on my e-208, and been below 8% only like 3-4 times total. Without knowing what exactly it does at zero, I just played it safe (even with very precise ABRP estimates). Now I see that was the right thing to do 🙂
In order to unlock the charging cable on Stellantis cars, you have to long press the button near the charging connector. No need to lock and unlock from the remote.
Thank You, I really enjoyed this video and other Citroen ec4x series. I would like to see some more, like charging curve, sound proofing and acceleration videos.
Plenty of closeups of the random varied hard plastics in the dashboard. Hopefully it has a buffer of some sort that keeps the battery out of damage zone, but just doesn’t have the software to handle it very well.
For future test maybe try to drive the car without B-mode activated when it stopped moving. There is a possibility for bad code with accelerator pedal and power limit...
Try pressing the start button without pressing the break to turn on the car and see the percentage, and I think AC works too, but you cant drive. Kind of how you turn the key once on a manual car to to turn on eletrical systems.
@@bluebikerathar, no, the AC compressor needs a lot of power, it's running directly off the HV battery (just like it was connected directly to the engine in a petrol car). With the 12V-only mode, you will only get fans blowing warm air in your face :D
The range disappearing at very low is typical citroen. I jave a c4 from almost 20 years ago and it has the exact same process. When you're very low on fuel it shows 3 bars, no more info
My more recent c4 showed available distance. I once put in more L than was possible, with 70 Km left. Other times I still had 50-60 Km left when the car would have said zero. In essence, the same useless info. Average consumption was also either spot on, or 0,4 L off. Good to know these E citroens will just leave you motionless on the highway when you reach 0,3 % battery, without warning !
Thank you! I've been waiting for such a video since the original e-C4 test, but this was not on your to-do list back then. I have the 2022 eC4, which helps me prepare not to run out of juice..Strangely, the net capacity is 45 KWh, but the total capacity is 50 at the old drivetrain. Where do they put that 5KW, then? :D Just some protection capacity to not drive the battery totally empty?
Yes, inaccesible buffers. Essentially all cars have them. Top buffer is to limit excessive battery wear for people that charge to full often. Bottom buffer is to still have some decent power available even at low state of charge, and again to prevent the battery from excessive wear if it got discharged too deep.
Or it's just an "insurance" they use to keep the eventual degradation less than 70% - which would force them to replace the battery pack. Yes, quite small (5kW) but still doable in a game where 10% will make a difference (and they can do it in any scheduled maintenance software upgrade).
@TimoLahti, this is is a new powertrain (115KW 156CV) and a new battery (54kWh gross, 51kWh net). The """engine"""" (I know I must say motor :p ) is now made by a joint venture between PSA & Nidec (I say PSA because this was established before the PSA and FCA merger) instead of Continental AG. It is supposed to be more efficient, 2-3% more on average. The cell battery supplier is still CATL (there is also joint venture for this, Saft & PSA called ACC, but they did not deliver cells in time for this powertrain refresh. They are now sampling cells in a pilot plant in Nersac, France), but now more modern and dense cells based on NCM 811 chemistry are used instead of NCM 523 we have our earlier eCMP models (mine is MY2020 Corsa-e). The "45kWh" from the old battery pack are very difficult to get with newer firmwares (from half 2021 and later), as they implemented a huge top buffer with it (3-4kWh). That's why Bjørn could not get more than 40,9kWh from original ë-C4 (as it already had that firmware, although I remembed he did not go too deep, and finished test when --- appeared on GoM), but could get it from e208 with original firmware (that one was terrible as it hung with CCS negotiation and Bjørn had to disconnect 12v battery to recover; my Corsa-e came with that fixed)
This is probably the most important test that you make and the biggest reason most people have for not changing to an EV. How far can I go when the car display shows 1 or 0 percent battery? Maybe you get stuck in a traffic jam, should I charge as soon as I can? Will I be able to make it to my planned charging stop. Should I charge a little before I get to my destination?
These are all valid questions, I think if you drove one for a week you would get used to using electricity instead of fuel to power your car. Let me know what you think when you try it 🤙
@@logitech4873 Exactly, EVs consume less in typical traffic jams than driving the same stretch at normal speed. Only if you were stationary for hours would the AC use catch up with the decreased driving consumption, but a fossil car idling to run the AC would see way worse consumption jump. EVs can sustain the aircon for days even in extreme weather.
Citroen fossil cars from 2005+ stop showing range when below 30 km (iv'e not driven an older Citroen) but given they had this behaviour in their fossil cars then it's no surprise the EV's have it too.
Three kilometers below 0% is not much. Did Stellantis use some bottom buffer for increasing autonomy ? EDIT : The old platform (46kWh / 100kW) allowed 15-17km at 0% (ecobest mesured both versions).
Ok it looks that with new battery, there is no bottom buffer. But maybe for EC4 there is a bottom buffer and this can be an answer why the autonomy has improved a lot. Can anybody confirm this?
Hey Bjorn, do you reccomend a Tesla M3 if I’m driving a lot? I’ve read articles where people drove 150-200k in 3 years and their Tesla needed a full battery replacement. I also saw your video about that taxi Tesla that was only supercharged and had crazy deg. I would mainly charge at home, there aren’t any superchargers near me. Feedback from anyone is appreciated.
@@Axter6 at the moment only the SR RWD, but it should have higher efficiency then the LR and a flat charging curve to make up for the smaller battery. LFP is very tolerant to high state of charge and many cycles. Downside, it can not be charged below 0 celcius, so the battery will be preheated longer before charging starts.
I think IKEA should focus on having those slow charging options but in large numbers. 10-20kW would be close to plenty during an IKEA visit of 1-2 hours. But around my area they latest removed the slow charging stalls and replaced with 4 points of (presumably) 50 kW chargers. Well, those are occupied all the time. Suitable mix of both would be great. I think they at IKEA are not fully sure yet themselves on which way to go. :)
10-20kW for 1-2 hours would result to anything between 10 to 40 kWh. And on the other hand 50kW or more power and cars would be full after 1 hour while you are only half way through the store.
True, I remember plugging in the DCFC and then having to leave the store in 45min to go move the car only to return to my family inside. perhaps the L2 is more practical but it was a nice free novelty from 2018-2021 ish@@kengucam
They originallly did have ~1kWh buffer below SoC 0%. But with newer firmwares (from half 2021 and later) they implemented a huge top buffer (3-4kWh) and to compensate, they (almost) eliminated the bottom buffer. The tortoise appeared originally at 0% SoC, now it appears at 2-3% SoC, but in reality it appears at the same cell battery voltage. I believe it is about 3.3x volts, with x being low number (I have gone deep to 5-7% in new firmware and cell voltage was about 3.36-3.38v)
@@angeldominguez4993 3.3V is still conservative for Li-ion cell tho. There is maybe still 5% energy left after these 3.3V per cell, but PSA locked them for buffer.
@@stealthhack Yes, I know. But here we are only talking about usable buffer (keep in mind I said in another post it was difficult to use the top buffer, but it is not impossible. I discovered a trick to use it when needed ;) )
@@stealthhack It is useful just for the initial leg as this, AFAIK, only works with AC charging: 1) Charge the car to 100%. 2) Move the car from the charger 10m and back (or use HVAC for ~5minutes). 3) Charge again to 100%. It will take at least 1h (almost 2h on the Schucko charger) as it will charge 3-4kWh more. In my car, with carscanner, the BMS says: 1st "100%SoC" holds 40,3-40,8kWh (currently my Corsa-e has 6,1% battery degradation after 57k kms) and cell voltage goes up to 4.08-4.09v. 2nd 100% SoC after the "trick" holds 43,5-44,2kWh and cell voltage is up to 4.13-4.14v. Also no regen when you start driving (this also happened with the firmware that came with the car when it was new)
gopro 12 can block out those sounds by bluetooth connection, im going to finish my clip soon and make my first post :D you can connect any updated bluetooth headset with the gopro and you will not hear those fossils and can use that for b roll clip :d
I think I prefer to be able to drive 20-30 more km with 0% left and be bricked afterwards, rather than die immediately at 0% and be able to drive again after charging 500W.
My C4 grand picasso had software written by a six year old. It would also stop at a green traffic light (robotised 6speed), which would need me to shut down the car, wait 2 seconds, and restart. Fun. I sold it when the electronic handbrake thought it was malfunctioning, and the dealer thought it was repaired.
Oooo, thanks! I had a suspicion that Stellantis cars had essentially nothing below zero.
I dared to go to 3% only once on my e-208, and been below 8% only like 3-4 times total.
Without knowing what exactly it does at zero, I just played it safe (even with very precise ABRP estimates). Now I see that was the right thing to do 🙂
Same and I did notice power drop below 10%. Never turtle mode and drove it until 3% as well.
Well, I drove my e208 down to 0 as I got home on the driveway a few months ago 😅
In order to unlock the charging cable on Stellantis cars, you have to long press the button near the charging connector. No need to lock and unlock from the remote.
Thanks, didn't know that and will try in a few days
Thank You, I really enjoyed this video and other Citroen ec4x series. I would like to see some more, like charging curve, sound proofing and acceleration videos.
7:30 You can unlock by hold down
Plenty of closeups of the random varied hard plastics in the dashboard. Hopefully it has a buffer of some sort that keeps the battery out of damage zone, but just doesn’t have the software to handle it very well.
For future test maybe try to drive the car without B-mode activated when it stopped moving. There is a possibility for bad code with accelerator pedal and power limit...
Try pressing the start button without pressing the break to turn on the car and see the percentage, and I think AC works too, but you cant drive. Kind of how you turn the key once on a manual car to to turn on eletrical systems.
On that mode, the HV battery will not be connected, so no AC.
*brake
@@bluebikerathar, no, the AC compressor needs a lot of power, it's running directly off the HV battery (just like it was connected directly to the engine in a petrol car).
With the 12V-only mode, you will only get fans blowing warm air in your face :D
The range disappearing at very low is typical citroen.
I jave a c4 from almost 20 years ago and it has the exact same process. When you're very low on fuel it shows 3 bars, no more info
My more recent c4 showed available distance. I once put in more L than was possible, with 70 Km left. Other times I still had 50-60 Km left when the car would have said zero. In essence, the same useless info. Average consumption was also either spot on, or 0,4 L off.
Good to know these E citroens will just leave you motionless on the highway when you reach 0,3 % battery, without warning !
HAHAHAHA I did not know Turtle was universal SOL icon.
Thank you! I've been waiting for such a video since the original e-C4 test, but this was not on your to-do list back then. I have the 2022 eC4, which helps me prepare not to run out of juice..Strangely, the net capacity is 45 KWh, but the total capacity is 50 at the old drivetrain. Where do they put that 5KW, then? :D Just some protection capacity to not drive the battery totally empty?
Yes, inaccesible buffers. Essentially all cars have them.
Top buffer is to limit excessive battery wear for people that charge to full often.
Bottom buffer is to still have some decent power available even at low state of charge, and again to prevent the battery from excessive wear if it got discharged too deep.
Or it's just an "insurance" they use to keep the eventual degradation less than 70% - which would force them to replace the battery pack.
Yes, quite small (5kW) but still doable in a game where 10% will make a difference (and they can do it in any scheduled maintenance software upgrade).
@TimoLahti, this is is a new powertrain (115KW 156CV) and a new battery (54kWh gross, 51kWh net). The """engine"""" (I know I must say motor :p ) is now made by a joint venture between PSA & Nidec (I say PSA because this was established before the PSA and FCA merger) instead of Continental AG. It is supposed to be more efficient, 2-3% more on average. The cell battery supplier is still CATL (there is also joint venture for this, Saft & PSA called ACC, but they did not deliver cells in time for this powertrain refresh. They are now sampling cells in a pilot plant in Nersac, France), but now more modern and dense cells based on NCM 811 chemistry are used instead of NCM 523 we have our earlier eCMP models (mine is MY2020 Corsa-e). The "45kWh" from the old battery pack are very difficult to get with newer firmwares (from half 2021 and later), as they implemented a huge top buffer with it (3-4kWh). That's why Bjørn could not get more than 40,9kWh from original ë-C4 (as it already had that firmware, although I remembed he did not go too deep, and finished test when --- appeared on GoM), but could get it from e208 with original firmware (that one was terrible as it hung with CCS negotiation and Bjørn had to disconnect 12v battery to recover; my Corsa-e came with that fixed)
This is probably the most important test that you make and the biggest reason most people have for not changing to an EV.
How far can I go when the car display shows 1 or 0 percent battery?
Maybe you get stuck in a traffic jam, should I charge as soon as I can? Will I be able to make it to my planned charging stop. Should I charge a little before I get to my destination?
These are all valid questions, I think if you drove one for a week you would get used to using electricity instead of fuel to power your car.
Let me know what you think when you try it 🤙
@@logitech4873 Exactly, EVs consume less in typical traffic jams than driving the same stretch at normal speed.
Only if you were stationary for hours would the AC use catch up with the decreased driving consumption, but a fossil car idling to run the AC would see way worse consumption jump.
EVs can sustain the aircon for days even in extreme weather.
Its ded. DED! I don't know if it is OnlyFans! You are a Legend Sir! 💪💪😂😂😂😂
I expected a car with this body style to have a hatchback instead of a boot
Citroen fossil cars from 2005+ stop showing range when below 30 km (iv'e not driven an older Citroen) but given they had this behaviour in their fossil cars then it's no surprise the EV's have it too.
Correct, my C5 phase 2 had this also, a bit annoying if you want to go below 30😅
Well it means they are very precise
Three kilometers below 0% is not much. Did Stellantis use some bottom buffer for increasing autonomy ?
EDIT : The old platform (46kWh / 100kW) allowed 15-17km at 0% (ecobest mesured both versions).
Hi good video mine is gone on a non driving mode does anybody knows where’s the cut off switch is on this particular vehicle
Ok it looks that with new battery, there is no bottom buffer. But maybe for EC4 there is a bottom buffer and this can be an answer why the autonomy has improved a lot. Can anybody confirm this?
The behaviour tends so you don’t loose too much time and can go to the nearest fast charger asap…
Hey Bjorn, do you reccomend a Tesla M3 if I’m driving a lot? I’ve read articles where people drove 150-200k in 3 years and their Tesla needed a full battery replacement. I also saw your video about that taxi Tesla that was only supercharged and had crazy deg. I would mainly charge at home, there aren’t any superchargers near me. Feedback from anyone is appreciated.
Tesla rock. They are solid. Battery issues not common…. It’s really a non worry !!
M3 with LFP battery should last a very long time!
@@bellumCretatus thanks for the answer, that’s good to hear. do all M3 come with the LFP battery now?
@Axter6 I think long range models are still NCM so go for a standard range to get LFP.
@@Axter6 at the moment only the SR RWD, but it should have higher efficiency then the LR and a flat charging curve to make up for the smaller battery. LFP is very tolerant to high state of charge and many cycles. Downside, it can not be charged below 0 celcius, so the battery will be preheated longer before charging starts.
Ikea 🇨🇦 (Toronto locations) have removed their L3 (50kWh) chargers as of 2021 and replaced them with only six L2
I think IKEA should focus on having those slow charging options but in large numbers. 10-20kW would be close to plenty during an IKEA visit of 1-2 hours. But around my area they latest removed the slow charging stalls and replaced with 4 points of (presumably) 50 kW chargers. Well, those are occupied all the time. Suitable mix of both would be great. I think they at IKEA are not fully sure yet themselves on which way to go. :)
10-20kW for 1-2 hours would result to anything between 10 to 40 kWh. And on the other hand 50kW or more power and cars would be full after 1 hour while you are only half way through the store.
True, I remember plugging in the DCFC and then having to leave the store in 45min to go move the car only to return to my family inside. perhaps the L2 is more practical but it was a nice free novelty from 2018-2021 ish@@kengucam
Why he not list batteries he uses to charge depleted cars?
Yeah, but the old PSA generation cars have zero buffer, unlike this new battery.
They originallly did have ~1kWh buffer below SoC 0%. But with newer firmwares (from half 2021 and later) they implemented a huge top buffer (3-4kWh) and to compensate, they (almost) eliminated the bottom buffer. The tortoise appeared originally at 0% SoC, now it appears at 2-3% SoC, but in reality it appears at the same cell battery voltage. I believe it is about 3.3x volts, with x being low number (I have gone deep to 5-7% in new firmware and cell voltage was about 3.36-3.38v)
@@angeldominguez4993 3.3V is still conservative for Li-ion cell tho. There is maybe still 5% energy left after these 3.3V per cell, but PSA locked them for buffer.
@@stealthhack Yes, I know. But here we are only talking about usable buffer (keep in mind I said in another post it was difficult to use the top buffer, but it is not impossible. I discovered a trick to use it when needed ;) )
@@angeldominguez4993 spit the trick, it would be useful for long jorneys.
@@stealthhack It is useful just for the initial leg as this, AFAIK, only works with AC charging: 1) Charge the car to 100%. 2) Move the car from the charger 10m and back (or use HVAC for ~5minutes). 3) Charge again to 100%. It will take at least 1h (almost 2h on the Schucko charger) as it will charge 3-4kWh more. In my car, with carscanner, the BMS says: 1st "100%SoC" holds 40,3-40,8kWh (currently my Corsa-e has 6,1% battery degradation after 57k kms) and cell voltage goes up to 4.08-4.09v. 2nd 100% SoC after the "trick" holds 43,5-44,2kWh and cell voltage is up to 4.13-4.14v. Also no regen when you start driving (this also happened with the firmware that came with the car when it was new)
gopro 12 can block out those sounds by bluetooth connection, im going to finish my clip soon and make my first post :D you can connect any updated bluetooth headset with the gopro and you will not hear those fossils and can use that for b roll clip :d
What sounds?
This must have been an older video? Cause it's not 28 in late September? :D
Korrekt
Good to know that 0% means 0% with PSA / Stellantis ev. No hidden buffer but also a shame there is no loading screen.
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WOW
I counted 12 Teslas :D
This car in Norwegian winter is a JOKE 👎🏻
Who buys a Stelantis EV?
I think I prefer to be able to drive 20-30 more km with 0% left and be bricked afterwards, rather than die immediately at 0% and be able to drive again after charging 500W.
*500 Wh
@@bjornnyland correct, my mistake
Terrible cockpit and interface design. Yikes
The French are different in many ways...
The software is a mess. How can that be? It‘s not some random school project. 🫣
My C4 grand picasso had software written by a six year old. It would also stop at a green traffic light (robotised 6speed), which would need me to shut down the car, wait 2 seconds, and restart. Fun.
I sold it when the electronic handbrake thought it was malfunctioning, and the dealer thought it was repaired.
😬
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