Karate Move That SHOULD NOT Exist
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2024
- My first video about Karate, I hope you enjoy!
0:00 What is Kata
1:25 What is Chinte
2:53 Origins of Chinte
3:54 Oldschool Competition Ruling
5:23 Modern theory
=== Video references===
KARATE Kata & Fighting Demo | @MihalyDobroka
• KARATE Kata & Fighting...
Chinte - International Hayashi-Ha Shito-Ryu | @hayashihakarate
• Chinte - International...
Kata Chinte Full Tutorial | @ULTIMATEKARATEOFFICIAL
• Kata Chinte Full Tutorial
＃8 新馬場一世ＶＳ喜友名諒 | @KARATEWORLDTV2020
• ＃8 新馬場一世ＶＳ喜友名諒
1950’s Karate • Heian Nidan [COLORIZED] | @GarySuley
• 1950’s Karate • Heian ...
Turkey (Turkiye) male team kata Karate 1 series A Kocaelí turkey | @TopKarate1
• Turkey (Turkiye) male ...
Kazumasa Moto Gankaku FINAL Male Kata Karate 1 Rabat 2022 | @TopKarate1
• Kazumasa Moto Gankaku ...
Practical Kata Bunkai: Chinte Start | @practicalkatabunkai
• Practical Kata Bunkai:...
Practical Kata Bunkai: Chinte Hops | @practicalkatabunkai
• Practical Kata Bunkai:...
Hohan Soken - Kusanku - Matsumura Seito Shorin-ryu karate - Similar to Shotokan kanku/kusanku [dai] | @OkinawanShorinRyu
• Hohan Soken - Kusanku ...
Masatoshi Nakayama Shotokan | @Rytai2007
• Masatoshi Nakayama Sho...
Karate championship 1969 and 1963 | RARE VIDEO | | @_Karate_World
• Karate championship 19...
==Music Used==
Home - Byzantium
seimuc - The Works
rosentwig - Void
Perspective
I saw the title and I’m like “it’s the silly hops”
First theory is correct. The hops were added to comply with JKA competition rules. Simple as that. Anyone who practices this Kata and doesn’t plan to use it in JKA competition should just end where you end and omit the hops.
it makes no sense. there are millions other ways how to achieve return to starting point...
Yeah, no on that last theory. Doesn't matter if shotokan is technically a few years older than shito-ryu, chinte is also found in several different branches of shorin-ryu as well shudokan and the three bunny hops are not found in any of those versions. Although extremely rare, some branches of Tang Soo Do, which comes primarily from shotokan also includes chinte and in their version(s) they don't include the hops.
Something you have to remember is that Funakoshi was said to not have known very many forms. His original curriculum consisted of 15 kata, however, it's been theorized that he learned the 5 Pinan from Kenwa Mabuni and not from Itosu. Also, towards the end of his life, it's also been said that Funakoshi sent his highest-ranking students (including Nakayama) to Mabuni to learn more advanced kata.
Funakoshi passed away in 1957.So exactly when did he send his students to the other sensei?
@@KurtJarrellIm a shotokan practicioner and yes I can tell you ( at least according to the book "An honest history of shotokan karate ) written by a shotokan practitioner that Funakoshi who possesed a very friendly and open mind sent Nakayama to osaka so that he could learn shito ryu katas and expand on them giving them a shotokan adaptation. In those times the kata guru was Mabuni sensei and Funakoshi had no issues about it, on the contrary he was great friend with Mabuni.
There were schools for martial arts in Korea (including what would become Tang Soo Do) prior to all the heavy Japanese influence. While I definitely see similarities, I don't believe all of Tang Soo Do comes "primarily" from Shotokan. I was a student of Tang Soo Do for several years, and they're just similar, not the same. There are key differences. I don't remember Chinte in Tang Soo Do, but it was a long time ago, which branches had Chinte?
@@Tletna Japan invaded Korea in 1910 and banned all other martial arts. The schools that opened in Korea at the end of WW2 were all run by men who were trained in karate in Japan. Early Tang Soo Do and even early Tae Kwon Do were literal copies of Karate until they started getting changed in 60s/70s. Shotokan certainly had a big influence on certain branches of Tang Soo Do. (and yes, I'm aware the oral history of Hwang Kee says otherwise, but a lot of early Tang Soo Do history is propaganda)
I've trained under 2 different Tang So do teachers. One did not teach Chinte and followed a style closer to what world tang soo do teaches. The other has lineage through Ki Whang Kim, who trained in shudokan under Toyama. They do teach Chinte in their Tang Soo Do curriculum (and don't include the hops)
This is a situation that may need help from The Ministry of Silly Walks.😎👍🥋
You! You have culture
Wonderful reference.
Headed by the Undersecretary of Bouncy Awkward Things.
Stop embarrassing yourself.
So why hop? Why not just step back?
I think the whoever included the hops thought it best captured the meaning of the kata. We must remember the Chinte is translated to mean strange or unusual hands. So, many of the movements aren't typical. The hops could be viewed as a "strange or unusual" way to return the karateka to the starting point; paying homage to the name.
@@demetricklouis5710must be aome chinese roots. In chinese movies horror.movies, the bunny hopping is the typical way chinrse ghosts/ demons/ vampires move.
@@demetricklouis5710 it's purely because of embusen. end where you start, thus the hops.
Because you leave one leg closer to your opponent when you step, which could leave you vulnerable to an ankle pick. (As per Iain Abernathy's application with arm bar).
@@theflamingone8729 interesting, makes sense
The 3 hops at the end of Chinte are just useless crap, that got added in order to comply with the rather new stupulation that a kata starts and ends in one and the same point. If you look at older Kata, this stipulation does not exist. Thus in some styles Chinte is done without the 3 hops at the end. All in all I am just happy that I don't have to make up my mind with thigns liek that, as I have turned my back on Shotokan many years back and started with another style.
What style did you choose over shotokan?
Kyokushin style ?
@@nicolaswulles9081 No. Shima-ha Shorin Ryu. It is related to Matsubayashi Ryu.
@@ralfhtg1056 thank tou for introducing me to your style of karate. Best regards from Reunion Island. Osu.
I did the same, quit Shotokan, but I went to Kenpo and practiced that for 15 years before going to classical Chinese martial arts.
Funny thing is that both of those styles don’t have the finishing a form where you started.
So yeah, I agree with you on those three steps being made to comply with the new rule set.
It needs to be added that there is also a Shorin-Ryu version of the Kata written "Chinti" with some interesting variations of certain techniques (e.g. the two-finger-"block" going upwards not sideways), that can be found on UA-cam.
Regarding originality a common theory is that a lot of Kata versions "floated" around in 1900s Okinawa, after emerging to the general public after Meiji restauration from 1871, as every upper class family had their distinct version of Kata patterns (see all those versions of Passai and Kushanku) or even unique Kata only known in the families.
Funakoshi Gichin, father of Shotokan (but not official founder), seems to have collected some from other Karate masters, esp. Mabuni Kenwa, founder of Shito-Ryu, who was kind of an encyclopedia of Kata in person. Funakoshi did not name or show Chinte in his books of 1936 ("Kyohan") and 1942 ("Nyumon"), so it is not even clear if he knew or practiced this particular one.
Funakoshi did an interview with his main teacher Asato Anko in the early 1900s and published it posthumus in 1915. Here Asato speaks about some Kata named Chintei and connects it with the old masters Oyadomari and Matsumura (which translator Henning Wittwer interprets as a writing error for "Matsumora") from the Tomari region.
Detached from Funakoshi, the founders of Shotokan style (Nakayama etc.) added some Kata to Funakoshi's original Kata list found in Funakoshi's "Kyohan" book like Unsu, Gojushiho (split into two versions of Sho and Dai), Sochin, Ji'in, Chinte, the Sho version of Bassai and Kanku. It is not clearly documented where they took them from.
So it is very likely that Chinte was added to the Shotokan curriculum around or after Funakoshi's death in 1957, more or less adapting it from some source outside the Shotokan community, most probably Shito-Ryu community.
Gichin Funakoshi is the official founder of his dojo, which was named "Shotokan". He had studied not only Shuri-te, but also Naha-te for several years during his childhood. You can see it into his books "Ryukyu Kenpo Karate" (1922), "Karate Jutsu" (1925) and even in "Karate Do Kyohan" (1935, not 1936). He openly mentions "Shorei-ryu" under some Katas, which corresponds to Naha-te (example: Naifanchi, renamed Tekki into Kyohan).
There still exists an old Tomari-te version of Chinte, nowadays practiced in Kyudokan Kobayashi Shorin-ryu and in some other lineages (example: Yoshitomo Yamashiro).
Hello. Shorin Ryu Kyudokan has the Kata Chinti. We don't have that hops and we have that two -finger attack.
In the Kenkojuku style of Shotokan Karate the hops are removed and replaced with a back step in zenkutsu dachi. It in my opinion is a better to solution to arrive at the the starting point for the kata.
On YT videos I see that they perform back steps, not a back step in zekutsudachi.
@@antoniostrina82 In my dojo after the last punch, the hand position his held as you take a step back in zekutsudachi and then return to yoi. I'm not counting the step back into yoi.
@@demetricklouis5710
Maybe they adjust that bunny hop in that way.
Obviously, I found only three videos about the Kenkojuku's Chinte, so I can't take for granted that the those in the videos are the regular way to teach it.
@@antoniostrina82 Let us also not forget that originally the kata was performed without the 3 hops at the end. They came later and were likely included like you said for returning the practitioner back to the starting point.
Is it a big deal to me if you hop or not? No not at all. What matters to me is the bunkai and how the movements of the kata itself are interpreted.
I started my karate journey in JKA. Now I train in Kenkojuku. Even going from one JKA school to another I encountered some variation.
I like this a lot. I feel that the step back is more practical and like that there are Shotokan schools that are now teaching this. Thank you for pointing this out
Jesse Encamp covered this a while ago
I was about to tell the same.
We gotta remember that most of these were used for weapons training
Hops at the end of the Chinte are moving the practitioner back to the starting point.
the version I heard for why it ends in a different spot was that the creator of this kata passed away before completing it, so it is unfinished
A previous sensei of mine told us basically the same story. Without an ending, the kata was asymmetrical, and the hops were added to “finish” things.
The founder at the end of the kata found himself to close to the wall simply hoped backwards to get room to finish.
The hops were to comply with a rule that requires the artists to end in the same location he started the kata from.
Moo duk Kwan TKD is basically Tang Soo Do and the one time I saw this form, I forget its name, it did not have hops. Great video!
It means to return to the start of the embusen. It has no application, but if it helps in a fight, it's a move.
Hi, I take these Hops as a Key for me to start to modify what is useless or what I can't do anymore because of my age. I replaced it by an arm grap, arm break and a takedown which makes a lot more sense for me. Who tells me I must do a Kata exactly in the way it is teached 100 years ago? If you look at the different styles, I think that's a good Argument for my PoV.
That’s kind of move that I swear some old revered master did by mistake when they stumbled at the end and everyone watching was too intimidated to say they just f’kd up and totally believed they meant to do that!!
In boxing we hop on our heels to recover from a blow the groin. It's either that or some ancient karate master's trolling technique.
Okay, so I trained Yoshukai which is a branch of Chito-Ryu (it's Chito-Ryu Yoshukai and Kubado). I've met Yamamoto a couple times, and I'm one tournament we saw this and it came up. Th3 answer we got made sense. Both of these schools use to do it the same. Unlike most kata, the last move, when brininging the feet together (Yame), you step backwards not forward. Also, because you're giving ground you use the redirect (open hand on top of closed hand) instead of meeting the blow with momentum (double down block or "Gidonku"). I forget who it was but in a competition the founder made a mistake and stepped forward, so he paused, did 3 hops back to correct positioning, then finished the move. Then it was imitated and never went away. Chito-Ryu never changed but ultimately, switched to stepping forward. Yoshukai still steps back. There ya go. You're welcome haha
Those moves feel more like a troll that was invented because the rule of embusen sounded stupid.
I think the traditional practitioners felt insulted at having to adapt an ancestral kata for competition.
Competition was also negatively regarded by masters as Funakoshi.
So I guess this was their way to flip the finger at the whole industry.
I personally like the competition aspect of karate, however I would love to see Chinte gets adopted back to the version without the hops, or seeing people doing the version w/o hops and not get punished for it.
Its funny how such a minor issue creates so much wrath from some when okinawan masters often had diffrent versions of same kata😂.
Shuai Jiao has hops like that and they are used for throwing. You hold someone with you arms bent and hop backward whilst pulling the person past your sides. Davoid Ross of Lama Pai teaches this throw.
Really cool video, I had some fun seeing someone talking about karate curiosities lmao! The only thing I had to say is that, I don't know if it is right, but Shotokan actually is a Tomari-Te style, within Shorin and the others you have mencioned, eccept for Shito-Ryu, wich is, ideed a Shuri-Te style.
Please, keep the good work. Oss. 🙇♂️
Shito ryu is a combination of Shuri and Naha, with probably some Tomari kata thrown in. As for Shotokan being a Tomari style, not really. Just about all Shorin based schools are a mix of Shuri and Tomari. Also, Funakoshi studied mostly under Itosu and Azato, and Azato especially was a senior student of the famous Shuri-te master, Matsumura Sokon.
Thank you so much! :D
At 3:08 there is a display of the sub-branches of which styles came from Shuri-te.
@@sakusuhorumu uhmmm, interesting, I didn't know who were Funakoshi masters, I thought Shotokan only came from Tomari-Te. Thank you for the correction!
Because Gichin Funakoshi was a rabbit 🐇🐰🐇🐰.
He was beaten three times with the same movement by Motobu in front of his deluded students. Afterwards he had nothing left but to argue absurd things to mitigate the shame.
Why put in three hops when one step would do the job?
The hop is explained simply. If you had a teacher worth a shit they would know that the hop was added because of the rules of competition having to start and stop in the same spot. Very simple and easily verified.
Why would they add hops instead of simply adding steps to simply walk back as they bow out?
Oh yeah, it's "SHIT"-O RYU allright
For sure
A lot of kata movements are hidden. This hopping move is done in a short stance , hopping forward 3 times, the movement comes from the Crow (bird). The reason they are hopping back is because the move inventor is concealing it in his kata. A lot of movement , positions , explanations etc come from nature
That's why hops are in alcohol. Drink to much, you start hopping
Brao brao
Hi Oskars Zvejnieks. I don't practice the advanced kata, because the intermediate & kihon versions are challenging enough. Here's my take on the "hops," anyhow.
The tradition of kata beginning & ending at the same point promotes symmetry of technical practice; as well as the precision of the individual steps. Karate, by tradition, is a precision exercise, from which many combative benefits flow.
The fact that Shotokan has these three "hops" at the end of Chinte (is it?), well the reason is that the Shotokan masters designed it that way. Shotokan is known for it's heavy emphasis on exacting body mechanics... and adding the three hops returning to the origin point... would support this emphasis. I don't believe the three hops were meant to qualify for the "modern" kata competition rules. I believe the formal competitions simply want kata done true to their traditional form.
People agonize over kata form way too much. Simply do it to traditional karate standards. Obviously there are specific bunkai in addition to standard techniques... it's up to the practitioner to figure that puzzle out. Mastering karate tradition to the implied black-belt level is hard enough... getting lost in esoterica won't help with that.
Nice commentary. 😍😍😍😍CHEERS.
3:22 Hello, I practise Shorin Ryu Kyudokan and we have Chinti. No hops.
@KARATEbyJesse can explain this. ❤
Turning opinions into facts is no guarantee of true facts!!!
Probably a style-related tradition, very cute and funny. Paul,69
Chinte has some interesting ideas in it, but I absolutely refuse to do those stupid hops.
@@haffoc I am literally in the same boat :D
Look it up on the Bubishi and correlate it to a technique.
Whole Style of Karate forms ONE Kung Fu Kuen! 🥱☯️
Kumite is more important than Katas, competition too. Kihon is the technique of basic movements. If you know them in depth, you can do the Katas. Therefore, the most important thing is the basic movements (kihon), the technique.
The most important thing is what will save your life on the street. That will be a combination of kata and kumite.
I see Kata as building block for Kumite. Kihon sets up Kata and sets up Kumite. In kihon techniques are typically performed in isolation to refine the movement and ensure that it is done properly. Kata takes those techniques and links them in a series. This familiarizes students with how to flow from one technique to the next, for combinations and quick reaction. Kumite, is just that in free form with an actual opponent. This is why bunkai is important.
Kata is no different than what boxers do when they work combinations with a trainer or on a heavy bag. It's putting the techniques together in sequences. The advantage of kata is that once learned it is a simplistic way of rehearsing techniques ranging from basic blocks and counters all to way up to throws and hidden techniques.
Katas are kumite just practice
By ones self
The explanation of the 3 jumps back are simply steps to get back to the starting point, no need to overthink this since there is no technique attached to these steps.
If its to end the Kata in the same spot they should just put two more retreating Kosa Uke. Or Gyaku Kosa uke since its has to be 'unusual'. Being myself a Shotokan student, that's are the only silly moves in the katas. There are to some jumps that are pure added or do 'hide' the real intention of the techniques(the so called 'Myegakure'). Or the mos likely, just to make the thing more flamboyant to watchers on competitions.
THE BEST KATA EXECUTIONER IN ALL WORLDS WAS TAÏJI KASE ,FAST STRONG AND REAL WITH HIGH EFFICIENCY.....
O kata é uma discpilina para o manuseio de armas.
Kara te is simply certain parts
Of shaolin kung fu the hops
Are done in certain forms
Of kung fu the hop is this
( hop like a sparrow)
You are close to opponent
Hop back from a knee strike
There are a number of "quirks" that have been added to kata. This hop appears to be one. Your explanation is probably accurate. The newest one is a silly step out and back prior to beginning the kata. Some quirks are due to misunderstandings or simply because someone made a mistake and others repeated the mistake because the person who made the mistake was of a higher rank. There are also those who decide to do kata "their way" instead of how it was originally taught. Kata tends to disintegrate over time due to forgetfulness and mental and physical laziness. I see kata in my own style that are almost unrecognizable. Here's the issue, folks. There is no "your way" of doing kata. Most kata of most styles are on the Internet; thus, there is no excuse for doing the kata incorrectly. Many of the videos are of the original masters. Do what they do, how they do it. It's just that simple. There are no excuses. Do your basics correctly. Do the katas correctly. Those are what will save your life on the street.
WTF Taekwondo 1st dan black belt pattern also has unusual stuff - the penis grab and pull.
While groin strikes are good self defense, one should not go for penis pull as people wear jeans.
It was a truly WTF? Taekwondo
If you dont understand the meaning or application dont call the lata BS. Àlso - kata is a form encompassing different techniques which the karateka needs to figure out and apply. Some of the applications will be found in other martial art styles - for instance Aikido, Judo etc....did you search there for a possible application? Is it possible that the hops were merely added to bring the karateka back to the starting point? Suggest you look again. Based on your comments here I can point out numerous moves in various katas that makes no sense.
Sport Is comedy,, Martial arts Is not for sport.
Just let AI run it and tell us what it means ;^)
You should look at chinto as the Okinawan styles practice it. Before funakoshi neutered karate for Japanese nationalism.
Chinte was not redesigned by Funakoshi. But still any style you practice is known thanks to Funakoshi efforts. Every method Funakoshi developed to teach karate was at the time authorized by the most famous okinawan senseis.If in need of more specific info let me know.
OK but surely you could just do something like a couple of retreating steps with maybe some knife hand blocks or something? Those hops are usually what you see in practice when you don't have the floor space for the whole kata.
I think most of the "bunkai" is also јust made up. There are moves in the Katas, simply because they look good
Because they feel good and..
Okinawan people hide some of there traditional dances in there from imperial hate. So dance away, and dance away but don't call it self defense.
Whatever the purpose of the bunny hops, they are a blast!
The three hops are a grab arm break and takedown. Meiykio Nidan and many other older kata do not end at the starting point
Those hops could be small evasion techniques with a forward inline guard. It could potentially have an application in combat.
All sayd about kata in the video is wrong.
pretty heavy.
But i dont know why selfinterpretation instead of meaning. lil ego feed.
I think your point is valid, but your argument is weakened by your dismissive tone and weak evidence for your position.
A Kata is a battle vs 4 unexisting enemys.
Sport Karate is a fake cuz not martial ART...martial SPORT n to feed lil ego.
As a Student of Kyokushin in my opinion tough spar and Kumite is more important than Kata I think Shotokan and Goju ryu give much importance to Kata.
Unfortunately most of them do not work on the street fight
Too rigid and strong not flexible or fluid like chinese kung-fu.
Muay Thai has Kata they always do Kata before the fights in Thailand, Boxing has Shadow Boxing but Shotokan exaggerates the importance of Kata.
Wai Khru isn't forms.
The Japanese ruined karate. It should have stayed on Okinawa.
The original purpose of Karate kata was physical exercise.
Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan Karate Do was once a physical education teacher, who taught Karate to children as a method of exercise.
The same is true with the forms exercises of Shaolin, which Bodhidharma taught to other Buddhist monks because they suffered from muscular atrophy, or loss of muscle, due to their physical inactivity caused by many daily hours of meditation.
Here is something to ponder-- that is, Eugen Sandow asserted that muscular overload can be achieved by the Brain via the mind-muscle connection by consciously contracting your muscles.
The same thing can occur in Karate kata-- that is, you can use your brain to consciously contract your muscles after each dynamic strike or block.
There are 3 phases of strength training: (1) the concentric phase, in which the muscle shortens to overcome the resistance; (2) the isometric phase, in which the muscle contracts without joint movement; and (3) the eccentric phase, in which the muscle lengths. Dynamic exercises are when muscles contract with joint movement.
All 3 phases of strength training can be developed through Karate kata as can Sandow's theory of muscular contraction using the brain and the mind-muscle connection.
However, Karate Kata should focus on each of the 3 phases of strength training, not one or the other, and done as strenuous physical exercise, not as a choreographed dance.
Unfortunately, practicing kata those created a new generation that thinks what they do is martial arts, and they can defend themselves by practising it just by doing these silly moves! Karate schools should look at the practical martial arts such as Muaythai and develop their systems. Despite some styles such as kyokushin karate they still have katas but their focus on the kumite is more. Also the other developed arts such as shidokan karate, where u practice only 4 katas and the focus is on the fighting part.
Osu..
I disagree. Kata has it's place in martial arts training. It builds muscle memory, and is a building block that leads to effective kumite. Kihon (basics) leads to Kata (forms), and kata leads to Kumite (sparring).
A good way of teaching is to start with a technique that occurs in a kata. Teach it several times so that students are proficient. Then teach the kata where the technique is performed to demonstrate how to set up the technique. Finish up with sparring and encourage students to try to work in the technique.
Kata does not exist just to be pretty. It is a teaching tool that is important to good kumite.
@demetricklouis5710 As a Muaythai person, I'm telling you it wouldn't help you to step in the ring to do Kickboxing/ k-1 fights or even in mma. Why fighters train Muaythai or Dutch style kick boxing to improve their stand-up fighting skills, it kata wad helpful you will see them doing kata instead of what they do! Kata is only useful for demonstrations or for those who have fear to fight. Despite the explanation of some instructors about the useful usage of the hidden techniques in kata, I would say it's good for stretching only. I do understand the benefits of the kihon in karate and agree with the main things in it, but not all. All what I'm saying is that classic martial arts must be developed to reality.
@@YousifSaif even the military uses kata. In the Army they call them battle drills. Set movements for dealing with an enemy force.
As part of system for self-defense kata are very useful, because proper technique becomes muscle memory.
Just because one Martial Art trains a certain way does not render another invalid or moot. Like I said earlier, kata is a tool.
@demetricklouis5710 I respect you and your opinion despite I agree or don't agree.. Osu
I have to disagree here. I’ve been attacked a couple of times, and the repetition from doing forms helped me out in each case.
Katas are made for self defense, not kumite, totally different animals.
Oh and that double arm raising block in Bassai followed by the two fists striking the rib cage really does work. Bassai was my tournament form at the time and someone tried to choke me from the front, and that was the technique I used against him.
So yes, forms do work.
Hikite is the useless movement that should not exist.
It's literally to chamber your punches, and it gives you a place to actually put your other hand. It's pretty damn important for katas.
@@thepowersplanet9915 You can do the same with the other hand covering your chin instead of exposing it.
Useless? It is the pull "hikite" that makes the punch more powerfull.
You're wrong. There are 19 KATA taught at the SHOTOKAN. Get your facts, and history right, before you hold yourself out to be an expert.
And, you're totally IGNORANT about CHIN-TE.... What you're calling SHOTOKAN is the JUNIOR version of what was taught at the SHOTOKAN prior to 1957... LEARN YOUR HISTORY.... there is so much mis-information rubbish in this video. Why don't you look up, "yori ashi" before holding forth about what you DON'T know. No stars, out of 5.