I think the VR1 sounded great as room mics, with really big fat tones from the toms and snare, and much less cymbals, but I preferred the SR25s on overheads. Have you ever heard of or tried the weathervane technique ? A spaced pair of SDC, but with a mono ribbon mic in the middle. All three should be about the same distance up from the snare and all the same distance apart from each other, forming an equilateral triangle. You get a nice stereo image and bright cymbals from the condensers, but the ribbon adds some extra low end oomph from the toms, but also fattens up the snare drum.
Thanks for the comparison. It was great to hear these side by side. Side note though...As you indicated, Blumlein is an X/Y configuration with the two figure 8 mics placed head to head and offset by 90 degrees, however, it looks like you have them oriented in M/S configuration in terms of how the array is facing the sound source. The benefit of Blumlein configuration is it is exactly the same orientation as M/S in regards to how the mics are oriented to each other, however Blumlein must be oriented so the sound source is looking at the middle of the X of the 90 degree vs M/S which is oriented so the sound source looks directly at the face of what is the Mid of the mid/side configuration.
Hi Alexander, you're right! At the time of creating this video I hadn't much experience with ribbons until I received these. In creating the video I hadn't 100% fully understood the concept and made this mistake. Thanks for the clarification though, and thanks for watching!
@@tootory9506Besides decoding the sides like he described above you need to make sure the "center" mic sound good by itself also. When listening in mono the sides cancel each other out.
@brianbauer3148 ⬆ See mackenlys comment above And Thank You - I do this from time to time But this example just didn't sound as "Stereo" As I recall when I would apply this technique to a drum kit I'm Recording... cheers!
Those ribbons sounds absolutely massive on drums! The effect is almost the same if you record drums on 2" tape vs. directly to computer. The tape brings so much life to the drums as in this comparison the ribbon mics do! I've tried once A to B comparison recording the drums to computer and to 2" inch tape. The tape was a clear winner to me. I think it´ s because of the tape compression! If you ever have a chance to try record on 2" tape please do!
Ribbons for the room... Earthworks for overheads. Sounded like there were some phase issues with VR1's in the spaced pair. Your mic setup for Blumlien was incorrect... you have it set up for Mid/Side... Blumlien is just a X/Y pair but with figure-8 patterns instead of cardioids. They should both be at a 45 degree angle to the source you want in the middle of your stereo image. Only in mid side should one be on axis and the other 90 degree off axis. This is why your image sounds unfocused and very mono.
Seems like the solution would be to buy 2 more ribbons. That way you can have 2 ribbons on overhead (in conjunction with the earthworks for a total of 4 overhead mics) and 2 ribbons in room. That would give you clarity and warmth together. And the added room ribbons would give the bigger picture you're wanting. I bought an MXL R80 ribbon to try as a single overhead on my smaller kit that I record in mono. (Used for when I want a 1940s style minimalistic recording). Its really warm, but nowhere near as warm as the se mics you reviewed today. So I grabbed a pair of HEIL PR31BW for overheads to use as stereo and I moved the R80 to the room.
Hey Hugo! Yeah man they really do, these ribbons also have full frequency response which most ribbons lack. But they also still have that “ribbon sound” so these are just fantastic!
That's great! They sound fantastic in that configuration. I currently have them set up as a spaced pair of room mics which also sound great. I'm trying to find a stereo bar for these to be able to use 1 mic stand for the blumlein pair so do let me know if you find anything like that! Thanks for watching!
@@bobdrums Right after I typed that comment I caught myself using the bungee cord trick on an overhead stand I was recording drums with. one side of the bungee is hooked to the twist stop and the other end is hooked to the back half of the boom. Kinda pulling it up or at least stopping it from drooping. Good Luck!
I bought one recently and I’m using it with the focus rite Scarlett. Gain has to be turned on very high. Also output from an amp needs to be high. Is that typical for ribbon mics? Can you get more gain with the clarett?
This is typical of passive ribbon mics. Have you tried using a Cloudlifter with the VR1? Should solve the problem. Otherwise, the VR2 is an active ribbon mic, which wouldn’t have that issue.
As room mic, the Se's are much better. As a spaced pair overheads, the Se's seem slightly dull for the application. However, they did fair better in blumlein as overheads. To be critical, your spaced pair positioning was not putting the snare in the center. This is what I do for spaced pair (might look funky to some), imagine drawing an X that is centered at the top of the batter side hoop of the kick drum. One of the X's lines extends across the center of the snare drum, the perpendicular line (to the snare line) is where you will line up your mics. Typically for me, hi hat side mic ends up above the rear left side of the crash and the ride side mic end up around above the floor tom off-center pointing down at the edges of the crash and ride. Also, I like having the ride side mic a little lower because drummers usually have the ride and crash lower on that side than the crash on hi hat side ( I want the crashes on either side of the kit to have same amount detail) I use a mic cable to measure from the center of the each mic to adjust for equidistant. Thank you for making this comparison. I am trying to decide which ribbon mic to get from SE, the VR1 or XR1.
I have been doing live sound for 15+ years now, I have a pair of these VR1 mic and have been using them for the past year as Drum overheads inside a drum inclosure. There is always so much high-end harshness bouncing around the plexiglass box it was always very hard to use any normal condenser in the PA. I always found myself queuing out highs, and still was never happy. VR1 best overhead for live I have ever had!
have you used them in a non enclosed situation? I love the warmth of them, but I wonder if I can EQ enough top back into them for a modern country/pop thing that seems to be the majority of what I mix these days...
@@dustinthiessen the VR1 was marketed as the first true 20-20khz ribbon microphone: if the vr1 is too dark for you, then ribbons are not the sound you are going for. Try a pair of large condenser in figure 8
@@jonathanvenegas7543 Right, normally I do use a pair of LDC on overs. it's the "brighter ribbon" marketing that intrigues me, and I'd love to give them a try sometime.
@@dustinthiessen I like the sound of the VR1 as overheads, it brings out the shells well, but since they are figure 8, the ceiling is important to consider
I would really recommend these mics yeah! Treating a room is of course one of the best things you can do for your sound. I have a video coming soon on the 6 gobos I made to help the sound in my room!
I have really been loving recording more with these mics! They sound fantastic, great clarity but also a nice warmth and character to them. I haven't personally used any M160s but I know they are popular mics!
@@bobdrums So Bob, did you keep these mics or return them ? I think an easy way to remember blumlein placement, is the mics should face the corners of the room, assuming your kit in the middle of the room!
![Recording Drums With Steve Albini [Third Circle Recordings]](/img/n.gif)
I think the VR1 sounded great as room mics, with really big fat tones from the toms and snare, and much less cymbals, but I preferred the SR25s on overheads. Have you ever heard of or tried the weathervane technique ? A spaced pair of SDC, but with a mono ribbon mic in the middle. All three should be about the same distance up from the snare and all the same distance apart from each other, forming an equilateral triangle. You get a nice stereo image and bright cymbals from the condensers, but the ribbon adds some extra low end oomph from the toms, but also fattens up the snare drum.
Thanks for the comparison. It was great to hear these side by side. Side note though...As you indicated, Blumlein is an X/Y configuration with the two figure 8 mics placed head to head and offset by 90 degrees, however, it looks like you have them oriented in M/S configuration in terms of how the array is facing the sound source. The benefit of Blumlein configuration is it is exactly the same orientation as M/S in regards to how the mics are oriented to each other, however Blumlein must be oriented so the sound source is looking at the middle of the X of the 90 degree vs M/S which is oriented so the sound source looks directly at the face of what is the Mid of the mid/side configuration.
Hi Alexander, you're right! At the time of creating this video I hadn't much experience with ribbons until I received these. In creating the video I hadn't 100% fully understood the concept and made this mistake. Thanks for the clarification though, and thanks for watching!
Arent ya Supposed To Pan The Blumline Pair hard L&R ? It Just Sounds Mono? hahaha - One Mic Would Be Equal To This Example? No? Cheers!
@@tootory9506 yes split the side mic into two channels, and flip the phase of one of the channels so they interfere constructively.
@@tootory9506Besides decoding the sides like he described above you need to make sure the "center" mic sound good by itself also. When listening in mono the sides cancel each other out.
@brianbauer3148 ⬆ See mackenlys comment above And Thank You - I do this from time to time But this example just didn't sound as "Stereo" As
I recall when I would apply this technique to a drum kit I'm Recording... cheers!
Those ribbons sounds absolutely massive on drums! The effect is almost the same if you record drums on 2" tape vs. directly to computer. The tape brings so much life to the drums as in this comparison the ribbon mics do! I've tried once A to B comparison recording the drums to computer and to 2" inch tape. The tape was a clear winner to me. I think it´ s because of the tape compression! If you ever have a chance to try record on 2" tape please do!
Ribbons for the room... Earthworks for overheads. Sounded like there were some phase issues with VR1's in the spaced pair. Your mic setup for Blumlien was incorrect... you have it set up for Mid/Side... Blumlien is just a X/Y pair but with figure-8 patterns instead of cardioids. They should both be at a 45 degree angle to the source you want in the middle of your stereo image. Only in mid side should one be on axis and the other 90 degree off axis. This is why your image sounds unfocused and very mono.
Seems like the solution would be to buy 2 more ribbons. That way you can have 2 ribbons on overhead (in conjunction with the earthworks for a total of 4 overhead mics) and 2 ribbons in room. That would give you clarity and warmth together. And the added room ribbons would give the bigger picture you're wanting.
I bought an MXL R80 ribbon to try as a single overhead on my smaller kit that I record in mono. (Used for when I want a 1940s style minimalistic recording). Its really warm, but nowhere near as warm as the se mics you reviewed today. So I grabbed a pair of HEIL PR31BW for overheads to use as stereo and I moved the R80 to the room.
I frigging love ribbons on drum rooms. They just instantly sound nice.
Hey Hugo! Yeah man they really do, these ribbons also have full frequency response which most ribbons lack. But they also still have that “ribbon sound” so these are just fantastic!
Thanks for uploading this. I've been considering the VR1s for a blumlein pair and it's great to finally hear an example.
That's great! They sound fantastic in that configuration. I currently have them set up as a spaced pair of room mics which also sound great. I'm trying to find a stereo bar for these to be able to use 1 mic stand for the blumlein pair so do let me know if you find anything like that! Thanks for watching!
I have a bunch of audio technica condenser mics and they do sound a lot thinner with more high end compared to the ribbon mic.
I use the VR1's on my overheads. Will never go back to Condensors again. They are fat and sound thick. They take well to eq. Just awesome!
Nice, yeah they’re great mics and do sound good as overheads!
I use VR2 as overheads in my home studio🤩
Nice demo, except, I think it would be more useful you didn't cut on the crashes, as that's one part of the sound which is critical.
For a droopy overhead mic stand I have used bungee cord straps on the stand to help em stay up. Nice review!
Smart idea! I’ve just got some new K&M mic stands which are so good! I’ll have a video out soon on them. Thanks for watching!
@@bobdrums Right after I typed that comment I caught myself using the bungee cord trick on an overhead stand I was recording drums with. one side of the bungee is hooked to the twist stop and the other end is hooked to the back half of the boom. Kinda pulling it up or at least stopping it from drooping. Good Luck!
I bought one recently and I’m using it with the focus rite Scarlett. Gain has to be turned on very high. Also output from an amp needs to be high. Is that typical for ribbon mics? Can you get more gain with the clarett?
Yes my gain has to be quite highly too, I believe clarett has a bit more gain but I don’t think it’s drastic.
This is typical of passive ribbon mics. Have you tried using a Cloudlifter with the VR1? Should solve the problem. Otherwise, the VR2 is an active ribbon mic, which wouldn’t have that issue.
Audience perspective?! Who are you?
The book “Recording Drums” by Mike Major is my bible
As room mic, the Se's are much better. As a spaced pair overheads, the Se's seem slightly dull for the application. However, they did fair better in blumlein as overheads. To be critical, your spaced pair positioning was not putting the snare in the center. This is what I do for spaced pair (might look funky to some), imagine drawing an X that is centered at the top of the batter side hoop of the kick drum. One of the X's lines extends across the center of the snare drum, the perpendicular line (to the snare line) is where you will line up your mics. Typically for me, hi hat side mic ends up above the rear left side of the crash and the ride side mic end up around above the floor tom off-center pointing down at the edges of the crash and ride. Also, I like having the ride side mic a little lower because drummers usually have the ride and crash lower on that side than the crash on hi hat side ( I want the crashes on either side of the kit to have same amount detail) I use a mic cable to measure from the center of the each mic to adjust for equidistant. Thank you for making this comparison. I am trying to decide which ribbon mic to get from SE, the VR1 or XR1.
I have been doing live sound for 15+ years now, I have a pair of these VR1 mic and have been using them for the past year as Drum overheads inside a drum inclosure. There is always so much high-end harshness bouncing around the plexiglass box it was always very hard to use any normal condenser in the PA. I always found myself queuing out highs, and still was never happy. VR1 best overhead for live I have ever had!
Nice man that’s great!
have you used them in a non enclosed situation? I love the warmth of them, but I wonder if I can EQ enough top back into them for a modern country/pop thing that seems to be the majority of what I mix these days...
@@dustinthiessen the VR1 was marketed as the first true 20-20khz ribbon microphone: if the vr1 is too dark for you, then ribbons are not the sound you are going for. Try a pair of large condenser in figure 8
@@jonathanvenegas7543 Right, normally I do use a pair of LDC on overs. it's the "brighter ribbon" marketing that intrigues me, and I'd love to give them a try sometime.
@@dustinthiessen I like the sound of the VR1 as overheads, it brings out the shells well, but since they are figure 8, the ceiling is important to consider
Very nice! Would you recommend the VR1 for untreated rooms?
I would really recommend these mics yeah! Treating a room is of course one of the best things you can do for your sound. I have a video coming soon on the 6 gobos I made to help the sound in my room!
Since they are true figure 8 they will pick up things from the back. The null of the mic should reject very well though.
These sound (to my ears) way better than, say, the M160s, at least on drums.
I have really been loving recording more with these mics! They sound fantastic, great clarity but also a nice warmth and character to them. I haven't personally used any M160s but I know they are popular mics!
that's not blumlein, even worse it's in mono
You’re right. I hadn’t used Blumlein before shooting this video so it was a bit of a rookie mistake. Will be used correctly in all future videos!
@@bobdrums So Bob, did you keep these mics or return them ? I think an easy way to remember blumlein placement, is the mics should face the corners of the room, assuming your kit in the middle of the room!