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The idea that we are in Christ and in Adam at the same time is so wrong it actually grieves my heart. He says the Kingdom is spiritual and then says the ultimate goal is the end of the physical. Physical death doesn't save me from Adam, JESUS DID! Partial preterism is the most dysfunctional type of dispensationalism I've ever heard. Love your channel by the way... grateful for the work you are doing.
You are saved from the curse. Objectively. But do you still struggle with sin? Yes, or unless you’re sinless? Christ has saved us from the curse, we are going to Heaven. We will be there. But am I there yet? No. I’d encourage you to hang around and get the full details. More to come. This is all I have been saying. I haven’t budged on this. I’m sick of the false dichotomies. 👇 “Redemption accomplished is what I mean when I call myself a “Consistent Preterist.” That means, as I have said before, that, per the Person and the objective, covenantal work of Christ, “it is finished”; “it is done.“ It was completed or consummated in that period between AD30 and AD70 that was the eschaton or the “last days” of OT Israel. There is your Full or Consistent Preterism!! BUT has it all been “worked out” yet? Has it all been applied among the gentile nations yet? Am I a sinless (sin-free) individual yet? No, I am not. Do I have my eternal resurrection embodiment yet? No, I do not. Therefore, there MUST be something more beyond the landmark eschatological year of AD70! Yes, that something more is redemption applied! There is your Partial Preterism!! The application of redemption has begun; it is an ongoing process, but it is not finished yet. In other words, we must stop creating false dichotomies! Stop creating false dualisms, a false “either-or“ between full preterism and partial preterism and start having a “both-and” mentality of unity and diversity, diversity and unity. Redemption accomplished, it is done, it is finished! This is the biblical meaning of genuine full or consistent preterism. Period. But redemption applied? That is partial preterism! It is a redemptive work that is still in process in the world per the person and work of the Holy Spirit. If only people could get hold of this vital distinction, I think it would catapult the preterist debate into a whole new, much-more-productive level, a level where we can get past this creation of false dichotomies- either full or partial Preterism-and stop throwing rocks at each other.” - Kim Burgess, The Hope of Israel and the Nations, vol.1, pg.31
Man I heard Mike and Don talking about this podcast today, and didn’t realize it was your channel. Good interview. We are def in a time where the Preterist position is being worked out and polished and there def will be some fireworks involved. Keep up the work bro. Doing a good job working these things through which will be needed.
Hey man! Yes, I appreciate that. I love Don and Mike, I’ve learned a lot from them. Kim and them have history. Kim has been a FP for over 40 years. He’s well aware of the systems and nuances to Biblical Theology. It was Kim who introduced me to FP. Kim and I are only questioning the narrative, people don’t like that. That’s okay. More to come. God bless. Grace and peace, Spencer
Tim, I found your view of vol.1 to be lacking in many respects. You claim Kim is "IO" and a "Dispensationalist." These are genetic fallacies for starters. It would be very easy for me to say that CC proponents and IO proponents use VERY similar arguments, therefore CC is IO. But nobody should reason like this. Jim Jordan is YEC, does this mean that CC' use of his work make CC YEC (young earth creation) now? No. Kim laid out clearly that he believes: God called Abraham to work His plan of Redemption THROUGH the stage of Israel. Every Preterist and Futurist should agree with this. You said in your interview with Rick Welch, 30:00 mark that: *“Adam is the source of the problem of redemption that Jesus accomplished”* ua-cam.com/users/liveiKTct_DEnBc?si=FKz2UgcXkkjSSAtx We agree. But the question I keep asking myself is: _If Adam’ “problem” (fall) has no effect on me today, then why do I need the “Source” of Redemption (Christ)?_ *Premise 1)* Adam is the source of the problem (fall) that Jesus Redeemed. *Premise 2)* Nobody today is effected by Adam’s problem (fall). *Conclusion)* Christ’ Salvation applies to nobody today. Now, this to me, sounds like IO. But, I’m not claiming that you are. So why do you claim Kim is? JL Vaughn said in his interview with Joel, 58:00 mark: *“Who should be doing the repenting? Those in covenant with God. Those who don’t know God have no reason to repent.”* ua-cam.com/video/oo-p6iHE03Y/v-deo.html Again, this “sounds” like IO propaganda. DeCosta and Bradley have both utilized this approach to cease all Biblical Salvation for anyone today post-70AD. But, you don't hear me forcing the IO label on CC precisely because its a genetic fallacy. _You smoke cigarettes, Nazi's smoked cigarettes, therefore you are a Nazi!_ This is faulty reasoning 100% of the time. I have to say, Kim is a brilliant man, he has a mind as sharp as a tack. I have learned so much from him. He is no “platonist” or “Dispensationalist” or even worse “IO.” Those are all fallacious claims. He has put forth the thesis clearly. God utilized Abraham and his Seed to bring Salvation to the nations. Not IO. And God did this THROUGH OC Israel’s Escahton. That was OC israel’s “telos” (goal). To birth the NC Kingdom of the Son of Man to bring salvation to the fallen race of Adam. And That NC Kingdom began at the Parousia. This is basic Biblical Eschatology.
(1) I think you are taking the parable of the leaven out of its context in Matthew 13. The "already and not yet" of this chapter is discussing the gospel being preached and then the consummation would take place at the end of the OC age in AD 70 Matthew 13:1-43. Like other Postmillennialists Kim and Spencer take Matthew 13:31-33 out of its context in Matthew 13. Then look at the parable of the Mustard Seed as well: you have 1). the growth of the tree and THEN 2). the result of the consummation - the birds come and nest in it. The Kingdom is growing though the GC going throughout the Roman Empire between AD 30 - AD 70, then we come into the completed kingdom / NJ / which becomes our mature home. And then the gospel continues to be preached (Rev. 22:2, 17) but there is NO promise of the nations being completely Christianized or physical death and a curse on physical creation "being walked backwards" (whatever that is supposed to mean). (2) Kim and Spencer also mistakenly connect the parable of the leaven with the claim that biological death is a "curse" that is in "the process of being worked backwards in all of creation." WHAT? Is Kim and Spencer doing what other Postmillennialists have done with Isaiah 65 and other OT texts in that at some point we will all be living to be 900 years old, and at some point children will be playing with poisonous snakes? Wolves and lions will not eat meat as this alleged kingdom "process is played out"??? These boys don't want to let go of their Futurist Postmillennialism - they want the so-called "victory" over physical death and the physical creation returning to a physical Adamic glory, but with no consummation or parousia? If I'm hearing this correctly--it's just what Sam Frost and Talbot were working on but couldn't get to fly - a hybrid of Postmillennialism and Full Preterrism. But really it's just Postmillennial Futurism re-packaged with kind of sort of a consummation for physical death and the creation (a "process being worked out backwards") but not really? Very confusing with NO DETAILS. (3) And of course Spencer let Kim get away with calling Full Preterism "hyper-preterism" and "AD 70 full stop" but yet once again. Ugh. That's garbage. We believe the gospel continues to be preached beyond AD 70 and everyone is judged at death as well. Just because we don't see "physical death and the creation being worked out backwards (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean - and notice was NOT defined!!!), doesn't make us "hyper-preterists." Or just because we don't see the gospel and healing of the nations in Revelation 22:2, 17 resulting in some Postmillennial global conversion of the nations doesn't make us "hyper-preterists" or "full stop AD 70 preterists"!!!!! Both of you should be ashamed of this show and once again Kim has to falsely labeled us so he can promote himself as the sole founder of "real / true / consistent preterism." I have confronted him on this before and yet it continues. It literally makes me sick to my stomach when he does this. I only listened to some of this. Once I heard those points it was enough for me to see the error and exegetical problems and thus why it was necessary to mislabel Full Preterism but yet, once again. Kim and Spencer - you BOTH owe the Full Preterist community an apology for slander calling us "hyper-preterism" or "full stop preterism." And you BOTH need to get back on here and DEFINE what it means for physical death and the creation remaining under a "curse" that is "being worked out backwards." Really? HOW is it???
Mike, with all due respect, I find it interesting that you are gate keeping “full Preterism.” I hear you constantly bash futurists for gatekeeping “orthodoxy” but then you turn right around and gate keep “full Preterism.” That’s perplexing to me. You don’t like Post Mil “residue” that’s fine. You obviously don’t like Christian Reconstruction, but yet this is “gospel eschatology?” No.1) When Kim and I say that the Kingdom will grow and fill this world for Christ and site Mt.13, you command that this verse HAD to be “fulfilled” in 70. Claiming we are “futurists” for seeing ongoing application of this Kingdom growth. But, I find it interesting to see you claim that people are still entering into this objective Kingdom today AFTER 70. Wait a minute, I thought it was all done? No more growth right? You do realize you are saying the same thing we are saying? We believe the Kingdom came in 70! But, did said Kingdom fill the world by 70.? No. Just the opposite. There was an apostasy in that transitional period. Jesus said “few would enter” the Kingdom from that transitional period! So no, you are wrong Mike. Just like the first Exodus, few would enter the OC Kingdom. Did Joshua and Caleb say: “ well, it’s all fulfilled guys, no more Kingdom growth or work?” Absolutely not. So too, with the Second Exodus. You claim there can be no “already and not yet” today? But, Mike, have you experienced what you will receive in heaven yet? No you haven’t. So there is a “not yet” for you on an individual level. Now we are on the horns of a logical dilemma here. You say the “already and not yet” was confined to the transitional period. We Agree. But, it’s still going on after the objective establishment of this New Covenant Kingdom. You seem to disagree? Logically, of necessity, there is a “not yet” for you and this Kingdom because people in the future, who have “not yet” entered the Kingdom will do so someday by God sovereignly drawing them to Himself. So there is an “already and not yet” for us today…of necessity! It’s absurd to claim otherwise. You have said on many occasions that Christians will receive a new body in heaven, but do you possess that resurrected state fully now? No, you don’t. Seems like there is a real bind here. John claims that people will enter this Kingdom in Rev.21-22. Ongoing application of a definitive Kingdom. This New Covenant Kingdom and Judgment was definitively established at the Parousia (2 Tim.4:1). But it has ongoing effects. You wouldn’t disagree? That’s all we are saying. If that’s futurism, so be it. You are right there with us. 2.) Kim explicitly stated at the 38:00 mark that Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:45 sites Adam as Created, not Adam as fallen, as being mortal PRE-Fall. But, hey, I guess you didn’t listen that far? You heard enough right? We are claiming that Adam’s fallen order will progressively become no more THROUGH the growth of Christ’s Kingdom. That’s it. Christ removed the sting to physical death because of His atonement (which is progressively BEING applied to people today) but you disagree? You can mock and call it “futurism” all you want. But yet you claim people today need to repent and believe the Gospel and enter the New Covenant Kingdom. For what? Are you a futurist now? So many false antitheses are propagated by you in this comment. I’m not apologizing for anything. Is it somehow “mean” for me or anyone to point out inconsistencies in the so called preterist community? Especially with the rabid antinomianism and universalism in FP. You criticize futurists all the time, Mike. Would it be logical for people to then clutch their pearls and cry for an apology? No. It’s apart of debate. I would be happy to have a conversation with you on the phone and not in a comment section. I find that that’s where real discussion/debate needs to happen.
I agree, Spencer. My review will drop soon to evaluate Kim's claims. Do you still hold this? ua-cam.com/users/clipUgkxqf6Heey708pPwLtBHjPJMseeKUQhNURJ?si=yeLCNpQdjgqOACDf
Yes, in the sense of a definitive beginning of Judgement. I believe you and I will stand before Christ upon physical death. That judgement is “ongoing.” I think you would agree? Kim wouldn’t disagree. We talked about this for hours on the phone. Thanks.
@ You will find my upcoming review to be very interesting. I promise you that. Acts 17:31 confirms your point as well. But it doesn't fit Burgess' model.
@@SLS859 "The disciples understood the significance of this. They knew that Christ’s coming in judgment to destroy the Temple would mean the utter dissolution of Israel as the covenant nation. It would be the sign that God had divorced Israel, removing himself from their midst, taking the kingdom from her and giving it to another nation (Matt. 21:43). It would signal the end of the age, and the coming of an entirely new era in world history - Jesus Christ’s New World Order. From the beginning of creation until A.D. 70, the world was organized around one central Sanctuary, one single House of God. Now, in the New Covenant order, sanctuaries are established wherever true worship exists.” David Chilton, Paradise Restored, p. 88.
Hey! Thanks the encouragement. This is from the first volume. Nobody knows what’s going to happen. We are just told where this world is heading, and that’s Christ’ Kingdom. In these two transitions, there is a dual consummation. The New Covenant order. Has been completely consummated in the eschatological period of AD30-AD70 in OT Israel. The Old Covenant order is gone now (fulfilled in Christ), but the consummation of world history (of “this age” in Adam) is still underway per the “working out“ of the “coming age“ in Christ. Now, if you ask me, does the Bible ever, anywhere, say anything literally about the end of time, I would have to say, no, it does not. But that gets me into a problem because I cannot comprehend that. As to how it works, per the God-ordained laws of physics in this world, there is nothing merely physical or material that can or will last forever. I think that world history does have a telos (a goal) somewhere, but that is not what the Bible, first and foremost, was concerned about at all, subjective-wise. The Bible was primarily concerned about the objective establishment of the new covenant order in Christ.” - Kim Burgess, The Hope of Israel and the Nations, vol.1, pg.6.
@@ulsterscot I'm not sure. I mean, FP means that Christ Returned and the Resurrection took place at the Parousia. That's it. But the true "hyper preterist" are the "Israel Only" crowd. I don't care if people call me a hyper preterist and I don't care if others label others as being one. I'm not in the business of crying about name calling to be honest. Doesn't bother me. The real nuance is that yes, the Parousia happened, the Kingdom is here. But there are ongoing applications of this completed or fulfilled event. That is all Kim is saying. The Kingdom is growing and is ongoing. It didn't "fill" the world in that transitional period...just the opposite.
@@SLS859 me too. I don’t care. I’m just trying to work out what is different between Kim’s position and, for example, don Preston? He and the others I listen too certainly don’t say the clock stopped in ad 70. Great channel v interesting interviews. If you ever get the opportunity to discuss genesis 1 (and the different theories) I’ve heard you refer to it in passing 👍🙏🤔 thanks again.
@@ulsterscotYes, I plan to have more discussions like this brother. Kim has been a FP for over 40 years. He has differences with Don and Mike, especially with that distinction between “covenant and age.” I plan to have him back on to go more in depth about that topic. Thanks, brother!
If the end of the age in Matt 13 was not the end of the Old Covenant in 70AD, then there's been no resurrection of OC saints from Hades to Heaven and we would still have to go to Hades when we die. Hades, THE Death, Satan, Demons, etc. would still be a reality today which means that Rev 20-22 are still yet future. What am I missing if that age is not yet over? I am just not seeing Kim's separatuon of the ages and covenants. I don't think it's valid. But I do agree that the entire created order of man is headed toward a universal belief in Christ and those outside of Christ are still in Adam and are still outside the gates of the heavenly city.
Spencer and Kim, I appreciate the work here but have some challenges yet. The Isaiah 49 reference to the ends of the 'earth' I thought we were interpreting (speaking about our consistent hermeneutic) 'earth' as 'the land' of Israel. Also; 'Thy Kingdom Come on 'Earth', would we not also interpret that under OC Israel as 'Land'. I'm not IO in the outworking of my faith in Christ, but am working to find consistency in preterism. This model being expounded in this presentation here still looks to have some kind of physical telos to world history and a continual looking for physical outcomes. IN Christ, sin and death are concluded as we become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. He is our righteousness. The Kingdom continues to be show-cased in our world today, the Holy people among the profane. The NHNE are here now (OC heaven and earth is gone under OC Israel story) also, now in Christ this is 'where righteousness dwells'. By faith we live in the righteousness of Christ. Great chat here but I'm still working through these things. I fear we diminish the Person and Work of Christ to fully redeem and cover our nakedness. Anyway, great chat. Obviously more to be said. Never the less, very helpful to me on my journey Blessings brothers.
Hey David! Good to hear from. It’s been a while. I would say that της γης (The land) or “ehrets” (land) is not to be confused with having only one definition. That would be a word concept fallacy. Just because one word is found to have a specific meaning in one place doesn’t necessarily mean that that same definition applies to another. Paul’s use of “cosmos” in Acts 17 for instance is not the Old Covenant “world.” He’s speaking to pagan philosophers, Paul was talking about the whole creation there that God made. While I can see “land” referring to the land of Jerusalem in Mt.24 and in Revelation in certain places. But, to say “land” means Israel or covenant world everywhere else is incorrect in my opinion For instance: “Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth (της γης).” Rev.1:5 Thats not talking about the land of Israel there. John is claiming that Jesus Rules over everyone and every King. Hence His title “King of kings.” How many “kings” were in Israel? If “land” only means Israel think about how silly John’s claim here is. Same issue with “ehrets.” I can show you numerous examples where “earth” is not referring to a covenant land or “world.” I’ve always wondered how Yah can call “Heaven and Earth” to witness against OC Israel? “I call heaven and earth (ehrets) to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,” (Deuteronomy 30:19) H&E can apply to OC Israel, no doubt. But in order for us not to engage in a word concept fallacy we need to make a distinction here. H&E here is not the covenant people or land that’s called to witness. It’s the physical creation, God’s creation. I find that many in IO and FP constantly engage in terrible logic and exegesis. Word concept fallacies, composition fallacies, and terrible affirming the consequent fallacies. That’s has been my observation for the past two years. I’ve read Micheal Bradley’s book. I’m not impressed. I’ve listened to hours of DeCosta, I’m not impressed. I plan to do some serious work in this area in the future on this channel. I’m open to having Tim Martin or other CC guys come on for a chat with the other side. I think this would be beneficial for the community of Preterism. Anyway, I’m glad to hear from you brother. Hope all is well!
I am going to listen to this again. I think it is going to help. I don't believe in sin before the fall I don't believe in an old earth I don't believe that it's only a spiritual death and a spiritual resurrection. Those seem to be shoehorned and necessary to make 70 !!!! Full preterism work.
@@SLS859 we(Christians) are here to fulfill God's prophecy of God creating men in His image. Only Christians have the image of Christ in them, The prophets spoke of a time that was coming when Israel would be restored and that restoration would be fulfilled by men coming into the NC and having God dwelling in them. We are not created to be in the image of God as in a human 'idol' of God, but we were created to have God Himself in us. God's image in man is God Himself living in men. Having God in us is a blessing that cannot be competed with. And that blessing of being united with God, is what God purpose is for His children who are walking through this dark world. I could care a less about dying because I know that I will be still united to God when I die physically, just as I am united to God while alive physically. Nothing will change in my spiritual status of being united to God, so why should I concern myself with physical death. And for the record even those who do not have the connection to God in this physical world will be joined into Christ and made alive in the Spirit because their flesh(natural body in Adam) will be judged and removed from them when face to face with the power of Christ, who subdues all things to Himself. The gospel of Christ is what humanity needs, and not because they need to be insured that they go to heaven when they die, but so that they can be blessed in this life and have that union with God now. I have a lot to say on some of the misrepresentations of the scriptures, but the 'dead' in Luke 20:35 is about the spiritually dead and not the physically dead. Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
Kim does not understand that the Adamic body of sin is not the physical body of man. Adam's physical body did not change when he sinned. Physical death is not how God deals with the body of sin that is inherited through Adam 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Men share in a death like Christ(verse 5) when they receive the HS and the Adamic body of sin in man is put to death and crucified with Christ. And by sharing in the death that Christ suffered at the HS baptism, is the moment of that believer's resurrection to life in Christ 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. Paul is not speaking of physical death in verse 7, Paul is talking about the death and crucifixion of that Adamic nature that was enslaving the unbeliever to sin. Those who do not have the baptism of the HS, have not been baptized into Christ's death and they are not yet freed from the body of sin that lives within them.
@@SLS859 yes but I am referring to where Kim says that the body of sin is done away with by a physical death. I would also add that 'flesh and blood' in 1 Cor 15 is not referring to the human physical body not inheriting the kingdom of God, it is referring to the natural body of Adam, aka the corruptible body, and is referring to that natural body of OC Israel. The blessings of God under the OC were based on having the correct DNA(flesh and blood) as that corruptible body of OC Israel was in.
@@SLS859 I recommend a word search on what 'natural' means Paul uses that same Greek word here 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural(psuchikos) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. This is not referring to a physical man being unable to understand spiritual matters of God, or Christ as a physical man would have fallen into that category as well. psuchikos: Natural, unspiritual, worldly Original Word: ψυχικός Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: psuchikos Pronunciation: psoo-khee-kos' Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khee-kos') Definition: Natural, unspiritual, worldly Meaning: animal, natural, sensuous. James also used the same word (psuchikos) here for 'sensual' James 3 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual(psuchikos), demonic. Jude also used it here 19 These are sensual(psuchikos) persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. Other than those four other times that Paul used the word in 1 Cor 15, these are the only times the word (psuchikos) is used in the NT a 'natural' body is a body that is spiritually dead and in Adam, it is that 'natural' body that dies when a person is baptised into Christ's death(crucified with Christ) and born of the Spirit.
@@ophiuchus9071 very good. Theonomy still bangs on about law. They miss the whole, you are not under law but grace. Died with Christ, raised with Christ. New creation in the second Adam. All scripture is Fulfilled.
And here we have the guy with attachments to the physical on Steroids, anthropomorphism as well, the guy who thinks Heaven is a dirty word striking again! Sorry pal, I'll take a glorified body and Heavenly Unseen Realm existence any day over this! Pathetic
1 Cor 15 There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body Paul does not say there is presently a natural body and there will be a spiritual body in the future. Both the natural body and the spiritual body were existing in the present at that time when Paul wrote The natural body was OC Israel The spiritual body is the NC body of Christ The OC body of Israel was sown and the NC body of Christ was raised Hosea 2: 23 Then I will sow her(OC israel) for Myself in the earth, Hosea 6 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight. Jesus death and resurrection represented Israel's death and resurrection When Paul made this comment in 1 Cor 15 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, He was quoting Hosea's prophecy concerning Israel, because there is no mention of a third day resurrection anywhere in the scriptures except for in Hosea 6
I have issue with calling Christians as being still sinners. Sinners are those who do not believe in Christ, and not those who do believe in Christ. The HS would never convict a believer of sin. The believer is cleansed from all unrighteousness. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. John was writing his letter to Jewish Christians who were raised on the belief that Gentiles were sinners and Jews were not sinners The Jews were claiming they were sinless as a race of people, because they had God as their father John 8 41 Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father-God.” Those who were claiming they had no sin were Jews still stuck in the OC thought, and they were claiming to be sinless because they considered that because they were Jews, then they were God's children. No one in their right mind even a Jew, considered themselves as perfect and without sin, when it came to them and their personal lifestyles. They fully understood they had personally sinned and that is why they offered sacrifices to God every year for atonement from their sins.
This may help: “Redemption accomplished is what I mean when I call myself a “Consistent Preterist.” That means, as I have said before, that, per the Person and the objective, covenantal work of Christ, “it is finished”; “it is done.“ It was completed or consummated in that period between AD30 and AD70 that was the eschaton or the “last days” of OT Israel. There is your Full or Consistent Preterism!! BUT has it all been “worked out” yet? Has it all been applied among the gentile nations yet? Am I a sinless (sin-free) individual yet? No, I am not. Do I have my eternal resurrection embodiment yet? No, I do not. Therefore, there MUST be something more beyond the landmark eschatological year of AD70! Yes, that something more is redemption applied! There is your Partial Preterism!! The application of redemption has begun; it is an ongoing process, but it is not finished yet. In other words, we must stop creating false dichotomies! Stop creating false dualisms, a false “either-or“ between full preterism and partial preterism and start having a “both-and” mentality of unity and diversity, diversity and unity. Redemption accomplished, it is done, it is finished! This is the biblical meaning of genuine full or consistent preterism. Period. But redemption applied? That is partial preterism! It is a redemptive work that is still in process in the world per the person and work of the Holy Spirit. If only people could get hold of this vital distinction, I think it would catapult the preterist debate into a whole new, much-more-productive level, a level where we can get past this creation of false dichotomies- either full or partial Preterism-and stop throwing rocks at each other.” - Kim Burgess, The Hope of Israel and the Nations, vol.1, pg.31
I don't think Kim understands Luke 20. The age of resurrection was not existing at that time, but it would come into existence in the 1st century when OC saints were resurrected from Hades to Heaven. There's no marriage in Heaven. No man had gone to Heaven until then. It's not talking about an age that's yet future to use. Only those worthy from the OC would partake of that resurrection and thus, no marriage in their resurrected state. I mulled over this passage in the Greek for a while until it dawned on me and some of our translations do not help. Again, if that age to come is not yet a current reality, then we still go to Hades when we die (but we know that we don't).
The “age” to come is not simply reduced to “world history.” Yes. Kim wouldn’t disagree with this. You need to listen to the podcasts or his recent podcast with Gary DeMar on 1 Thess 4. Yes, we are in “the coming age” AS Christian’s. But what about those who aren’t? Where are they? What “age” are they in? Kim claims they are in the “age” of Adam, of fallen humanity. The question Kim is asking is: is “age” and “covenant” synonymous? Connected, yes. But not necessarily one and the same. OC Israel’s Eschaton dealt a definitive death blow to the “age/world” of fallen humanity. I’d be happy to explain on the phone. Just pm me. “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil AGE, according to the will of our God and Father,” Galatians 1:3-4 “Based on what he (Paul) had to say about “the Law” (the whole Old Covenant order) in Romans 7:12,14-“ the Law is holy, and… righteous and good… the Law is spiritual”- would Paul, in his right mind, ever have called the Mosaic/Old Covenant order an “evil age.” Of course not! There was nothing wrong with “the Law” per se (1 Tim.1:8). True, the Law, being “weak,” was not able to deal with sin in Adam, due to the power of “the flesh” (sinful human nature, Rom.8:3), but there was nothing wrong with Moses and the Law. “Moses wrote about Me,” Jesus said in John 5:46. This tells me that the “present evil age” here is in the Adamic or world-order sphere. Besides, Paul is addressing Gentiles for the most part in the Galatian churches and, as Gentiles, they were never formally under the Old Covenant order. Only the Jews were under it, along with any Gentile proselytes to Judaism. “And you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,” Ephesians 2:1-2 “In which you formerly walked”- now the New American Standard translates it as “according to the course of this world,” but the actual Greek is, according to THE AGE OF THIS WORLD.” See how Paul deliberately links “the age“ with “this world“ (kosmos)? By “age,” he means world order, and by this world order he means the world that flows out of fallen Adam- the world of “sin, condemnation, and death” in Adam (Rom 5:12-19). And, once again, Paul is addressing Gentiles in the world, not Jews still under the Old Covenant order in Israel. “This age” in the NT is not simply “the Old Covenant age” as we are being told by all the AD-70 full stop Preterists. It is rather this age/this world-order in fallen Adam. “There are two transitions going on in the NT, not just one. The transition of covenantal administrations from Moses to Christ; this is done. It was all finished and consummated in AD 70. But this leading transition is what sets the Preterist eschatological paradigm. It serves to bring the New Covenant Kingdom of God into being. But this then sparks the second transition that is now going on in the world on the world stage- the transition between the two ages. I prefer to label these two eschatological transitions, respectively, as “micro-eschatology” (in OT Israel; Moses to Christ; done!) and “macro-eschatology” (in the world order; Adam to Christ; yet underway today). Again, the eschatological goal on the “macro” level is for the Kingdom leaven, brought into the world by the transition from Moses/Old Covenant to Christ/New Covenant, to transform the world, transform the nations, so that this coming age and world history will indeed be one and the same, eventually, in existential or experiential terms.” - The Hope of Israel and the Nations, pg.272
@@SLS859 I'd agree that age doesn't equal covenant but I would say that the existence of the 2 covenants and 2 ages are the same in their timing. There wasn't just a raising of OC age saints from Hades to Heaven in the 1st century. There was also the casting of the OC age unregenerate into the Lake of Fire to receive the 2nd Death. Whether one wants to take that as eternal conscious torment or annihilation in the Lake of Fire is up for debate. Now, when the unregenerate (those still in Adam who are outside the city) die, they get the 2nd Death in the LOF immediately. That did not occur during the OC age. I think that's the covenantal transition that went hand in hand with the age transition among those who die in Adam. I am no preterist universalist. I've listened to the podcast series twice but I haven't listened to the recent episodes on Gary's podcast. I plan to. The "Gary DeMar Debacle" in early 2023 is what introduced me to full preterism. I'm hesitant to borrow the language of leaven from Matt 13 like Kim does to explain what's going on today. Jesus in Matt 13 is clearly talking about the present age in existence then and not something beyond His parousia in 70AD. Leaven (yeast) doesn't turn the whole lump into leaven. However, it does permeate the entire loaf such that it is everywhere though it can't be seen. This happened in the cosmos (heaven and earth) that existed at that time. The gospel was preached and people believed throughout the entire oikumene by 70AD, which was exactly what needed to happen before Jesus' 2nd coming. That cosmos passed away then and we are in the new heavens and new earth now. Thus, the age of that world (cosmos) also passed away. The rule of the power of the air is no longer around because he was also thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the OC unregenerate who were also in Hades, albeit in a place of torment (Luke 16). I will email you to hopefully line up a phone call. I'm another guy who went from dispen(sen)sationalism to postmill to full preterism, all in a pretty short timeframe. I can probably thank Ken Gentry (much to his dismay! haha) more than anyone for that transition. I enjoy your channel and it'd be great to connect.
Adam was a “type” and Christ the “antitype”. A type and antitype cannot coexist together forever. Christ IS the “Federal Head” now. We are here to be “imagers” in the world around us. The “gospel” is “everlasting” (Rev 14:6). The “gates” of the city are always open. The “nations” (Gen 10 and 11) were regathered as the “fullness of the gentiles” (Rom 11:25) and redemptive history was consummated.
Not every human being is a descendent of Adam. Adam was a high priest over Gods covenant creation. In order to be in covenant relationship with God, you had to be under a mediator which was Israel under the old covenant. Now Christ is the eternal high priest and you can come into covenant relationship with God by simple faith without the weight of the Law on your conscience. Christians are not in Adam, they are a new creation in Christ.
@ Only if you want to be in covenant relationship with God. It is done through Christ. Jesus was the last Adam, there are no Adam’s alive today. 1 Corinthians 15:45 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; [m] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Adams = Israelites under the old covenant. Christ was born under the Law to redeem those who were born under the Law (Galatians 4:4-5). You and anyone else alive today were not born under the Law as a Jew. Hebrews 2:17 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Being made just like His brothers = being born a Jew under the old covenant Law.
@ Premise 1) Adam is the source of the problem (fall) that Jesus Redeemed. Premise 2) Nobody today is effected by Adam’s problem (fall). Conclusion) Christ’ Salvation applies to nobody today. Welcome to IO
@ So would you apply Galatians 4:4-5 to yourself as someone born under the Law? Also would you say Christ wasn’t the last Adam? I don’t know how you exegete those verses and make them about people living today.
Romans 11:25 says, "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved..." The point is WHOEVER Israel is, (some argue for national Israel, some for Spiritual Israel) they can't be saved UNTIL ALL the Gentiles that are going to be saved (the FULLNESS of the gentiles) are finally saved, and THEN "all Israel" whoever you say they are, will be saved. Are you saying ALL the Gentiles who will ever be saved, got saved in the first century? Then 1900 years of people professing Jesus SINCE the first century, were TOO late and are NOT really saved. That means you and me as well. I am saying, "NO the fullness of the Gentiles did NOT happen in the first century, and you and I did NOT believe in Christ in vain. AND I believe there have been 1900 years or 49 generations of people coming to Jesus Christ and being born again. Each person in the last 49 generations are fulfilled prophecy of people turning to Christ for the forgiveness of sin. If ALL Israel and All Gentiles were saved in the first Century, then ALL witnessing and ministry is a complete waste of time. Can you not see that is exactly what Satan wants: "Don't waste your time. It too late." Again, everyone fits in one of these categories: Jew (Israel) or Gentile. I believe prophecy is being fulfilled EVERY day: some Jews are being saved, and even more Gentiles are coming to Christ. I am assuming you are saved. Are you Jewish in your ethnicity? If NOT, then according to the Bible, you are a Gentile. Bottom line is this: IF ALL prophecy was fulfilled in the first century then NOBODY was saved AFTER the first century. ALL people saved are either in the PROPHESIED "All Israel" or the "Fullness of the Gentiles."
2 TOTALLY CONFUSED MEN!!!! Why? Because some of what you've stated is right and some is WRONG!!!! KIM! You need to slow down AND calm down!!!! You are in errors!!!!
Full preterism is a delisional joke snd im embarresed for them, something did happen in 70 ad but i rhink we are in rev 20 but im just a trurh , full preterist are crazy
Full Preterism is right to say the Parousia happened in AD70. But Kim and I are questioning the narrative in Full Preterism. Some say that there is nothing more to world history. As if the kingdom is here and all we have is an endless cycle of existence. No. This New Covenant Kingdom will progressively grow and fill this world for Christ. There is a “telos” to world history. And I don’t mean that as “end,” as if it’s just world destruction. I mean “telos” as in “goal, or aim.” There is a goal, there is a purpose and plan to this world. And that’s Christ and His Kingdom. God will work out the details.
@SLS859 I don't know, I do know full preterism isn't sufficient , nor is partial , something happened in 70ad but not all things , let it unfold and let God reveal , either way nomatter the timeline the gospel of Jesus Christ is sufficient in all timelines, it's out ticket out of here nomatter when we are
@@SLS859 Judgement on the nations in AD 70, beyond the context of Israel-only, falsifies this paradigm. Stick with Peter over Burgess. "Let us be clear about this: The destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem was not merely the end of the Hebrew-Israelite-Jewish period of history that began with Abraham. It was the end of the entire Old Creation from Adam forward. The Church is the replacement not merely of Israel, but also the older and larger Gentile world that began with Adam and continued through the Noahic covenant. The Kingdom of Jesus is a wholly New Creation and nothing less." James B. Jordan, Matthew 23-25: A Literary, Historical, and Theological Commentary. Chapter titled, "The Judgment of the Old Creation," p. 69.
Then you should probably go start your own channel and make videos telling everyone about your version of Christianity. The world desperately needs your content, Jack!
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The idea that we are in Christ and in Adam at the same time is so wrong it actually grieves my heart. He says the Kingdom is spiritual and then says the ultimate goal is the end of the physical. Physical death doesn't save me from Adam, JESUS DID! Partial preterism is the most dysfunctional type of dispensationalism I've ever heard. Love your channel by the way... grateful for the work you are doing.
You are saved from the curse. Objectively. But do you still struggle with sin? Yes, or unless you’re sinless? Christ has saved us from the curse, we are going to Heaven. We will be there. But am I there yet? No. I’d encourage you to hang around and get the full details. More to come.
This is all I have been saying. I haven’t budged on this. I’m sick of the false dichotomies. 👇
“Redemption accomplished is what I mean when I call myself a “Consistent Preterist.” That means, as I have said before, that, per the Person and the objective, covenantal work of Christ, “it is finished”; “it is done.“ It was completed or consummated in that period between AD30 and AD70 that was the eschaton or the “last days” of OT Israel. There is your Full or Consistent Preterism!! BUT has it all been “worked out” yet? Has it all been applied among the gentile nations yet? Am I a sinless (sin-free) individual yet? No, I am not. Do I have my eternal resurrection embodiment yet? No, I do not. Therefore, there MUST be something more beyond the landmark eschatological year of AD70! Yes, that something more is redemption applied! There is your Partial Preterism!! The application of redemption has begun; it is an ongoing process, but it is not finished yet. In other words, we must stop creating false dichotomies! Stop creating false dualisms, a false “either-or“ between full preterism and partial preterism and start having a “both-and” mentality of unity and diversity, diversity and unity. Redemption accomplished, it is done, it is finished! This is the biblical meaning of genuine full or consistent preterism. Period. But redemption applied? That is partial preterism! It is a redemptive work that is still in process in the world per the person and work of the Holy Spirit. If only people could get hold of this vital distinction, I think it would catapult the preterist debate into a whole new, much-more-productive level, a level where we can get past this creation of false dichotomies- either full or partial Preterism-and stop throwing rocks at each other.”
- Kim Burgess, The Hope of Israel and the Nations, vol.1, pg.31
Nailed it!
Man I heard Mike and Don talking about this podcast today, and didn’t realize it was your channel. Good interview. We are def in a time where the Preterist position is being worked out and polished and there def will be some fireworks involved. Keep up the work bro. Doing a good job working these things through which will be needed.
Hey man! Yes, I appreciate that. I love Don and Mike, I’ve learned a lot from them. Kim and them have history. Kim has been a FP for over 40 years. He’s well aware of the systems and nuances to Biblical Theology. It was Kim who introduced me to FP. Kim and I are only questioning the narrative, people don’t like that. That’s okay. More to come. God bless.
Grace and peace,
Spencer
@ Amen brother. That’s what has to happen. I look forward to everything you bring forth!
Yes! At last someone who sees what I see!
This is outstanding and so helpful and exactly what I needed to know.😊
Here is a review of Volume 1.
ua-cam.com/video/4HHWN2NPqJ4/v-deo.htmlsi=aveXlEBNNne_iu5Y
My complete Volume 2 review will be released soon.
Tim, I found your view of vol.1 to be lacking in many respects. You claim Kim is "IO" and a "Dispensationalist." These are genetic fallacies for starters. It would be very easy for me to say that CC proponents and IO proponents use VERY similar arguments, therefore CC is IO. But nobody should reason like this. Jim Jordan is YEC, does this mean that CC' use of his work make CC YEC (young earth creation) now? No. Kim laid out clearly that he believes: God called Abraham to work His plan of Redemption THROUGH the stage of Israel. Every Preterist and Futurist should agree with this.
You said in your interview with Rick Welch, 30:00 mark that: *“Adam is the source of the problem of redemption that Jesus accomplished”*
ua-cam.com/users/liveiKTct_DEnBc?si=FKz2UgcXkkjSSAtx
We agree. But the question I keep asking myself is: _If Adam’ “problem” (fall) has no effect on me today, then why do I need the “Source” of Redemption (Christ)?_
*Premise 1)* Adam is the source of the problem (fall) that Jesus Redeemed.
*Premise 2)* Nobody today is effected by Adam’s problem (fall).
*Conclusion)* Christ’ Salvation applies to nobody today.
Now, this to me, sounds like IO. But, I’m not claiming that you are. So why do you claim Kim is?
JL Vaughn said in his interview with Joel, 58:00 mark: *“Who should be doing the repenting? Those in covenant with God. Those who don’t know God have no reason to repent.”*
ua-cam.com/video/oo-p6iHE03Y/v-deo.html
Again, this “sounds” like IO propaganda. DeCosta and Bradley have both utilized this approach to cease all Biblical Salvation for anyone today post-70AD. But, you don't hear me forcing the IO label on CC precisely because its a genetic fallacy. _You smoke cigarettes, Nazi's smoked cigarettes, therefore you are a Nazi!_ This is faulty reasoning 100% of the time.
I have to say, Kim is a brilliant man, he has a mind as sharp as a tack. I have learned so much from him. He is no “platonist” or “Dispensationalist” or even worse “IO.” Those are all fallacious claims.
He has put forth the thesis clearly. God utilized Abraham and his Seed to bring Salvation to the nations. Not IO. And God did this THROUGH OC Israel’s Escahton. That was OC israel’s “telos” (goal). To birth the NC Kingdom of the Son of Man to bring salvation to the fallen race of Adam. And That NC Kingdom began at the Parousia.
This is basic Biblical Eschatology.
@
The Volume 2 review will expand the details. It will be released soon.
@@SLS859
ua-cam.com/users/clipUgkxywtBzBBezpik_DMqyXsYbm-6jSgmzxrJ?si=I1-2FpDT1R3N_fIc
14:05 had this exact conversation with a pastor 10 years ago. he also said that was gnostic. the spirtual is MORE real.
(1) I think you are taking the parable of the leaven out of its context in Matthew 13. The "already and not yet" of this chapter is discussing the gospel being preached and then the consummation would take place at the end of the OC age in AD 70 Matthew 13:1-43. Like other Postmillennialists Kim and Spencer take Matthew 13:31-33 out of its context in Matthew 13. Then look at the parable of the Mustard Seed as well: you have 1). the growth of the tree and THEN 2). the result of the consummation - the birds come and nest in it. The Kingdom is growing though the GC going throughout the Roman Empire between AD 30 - AD 70, then we come into the completed kingdom / NJ / which becomes our mature home. And then the gospel continues to be preached (Rev. 22:2, 17) but there is NO promise of the nations being completely Christianized or physical death and a curse on physical creation "being walked backwards" (whatever that is supposed to mean).
(2) Kim and Spencer also mistakenly connect the parable of the leaven with the claim that biological death is a "curse" that is in "the process of being worked backwards in all of creation." WHAT? Is Kim and Spencer doing what other Postmillennialists have done with Isaiah 65 and other OT texts in that at some point we will all be living to be 900 years old, and at some point children will be playing with poisonous snakes? Wolves and lions will not eat meat as this alleged kingdom "process is played out"??? These boys don't want to let go of their Futurist Postmillennialism - they want the so-called "victory" over physical death and the physical creation returning to a physical Adamic glory, but with no consummation or parousia? If I'm hearing this correctly--it's just what Sam Frost and Talbot were working on but couldn't get to fly - a hybrid of Postmillennialism and Full Preterrism. But really it's just Postmillennial Futurism re-packaged with kind of sort of a consummation for physical death and the creation (a "process being worked out backwards") but not really? Very confusing with NO DETAILS.
(3) And of course Spencer let Kim get away with calling Full Preterism "hyper-preterism" and "AD 70 full stop" but yet once again. Ugh. That's garbage. We believe the gospel continues to be preached beyond AD 70 and everyone is judged at death as well. Just because we don't see "physical death and the creation being worked out backwards (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean - and notice was NOT defined!!!), doesn't make us "hyper-preterists." Or just because we don't see the gospel and healing of the nations in Revelation 22:2, 17 resulting in some Postmillennial global conversion of the nations doesn't make us "hyper-preterists" or "full stop AD 70 preterists"!!!!! Both of you should be ashamed of this show and once again Kim has to falsely labeled us so he can promote himself as the sole founder of "real / true / consistent preterism." I have confronted him on this before and yet it continues. It literally makes me sick to my stomach when he does this.
I only listened to some of this. Once I heard those points it was enough for me to see the error and exegetical problems and thus why it was necessary to mislabel Full Preterism but yet, once again.
Kim and Spencer - you BOTH owe the Full Preterist community an apology for slander calling us "hyper-preterism" or "full stop preterism." And you BOTH need to get back on here and DEFINE what it means for physical death and the creation remaining under a "curse" that is "being worked out backwards." Really? HOW is it???
Mike, with all due respect, I find it interesting that you are gate keeping “full Preterism.” I hear you constantly bash futurists for gatekeeping “orthodoxy” but then you turn right around and gate keep “full Preterism.” That’s perplexing to me. You don’t like Post Mil “residue” that’s fine. You obviously don’t like Christian Reconstruction, but yet this is “gospel eschatology?”
No.1) When Kim and I say that the Kingdom will grow and fill this world for Christ and site Mt.13, you command that this verse HAD to be “fulfilled” in 70. Claiming we are “futurists” for seeing ongoing application of this Kingdom growth. But, I find it interesting to see you claim that people are still entering into this objective Kingdom today AFTER 70. Wait a minute, I thought it was all done? No more growth right? You do realize you are saying the same thing we are saying? We believe the Kingdom came in 70! But, did said Kingdom fill the world by 70.? No. Just the opposite. There was an apostasy in that transitional period. Jesus said “few would enter” the Kingdom from that transitional period! So no, you are wrong Mike. Just like the first Exodus, few would enter the OC Kingdom. Did Joshua and Caleb say: “ well, it’s all fulfilled guys, no more Kingdom growth or work?” Absolutely not. So too, with the Second Exodus. You claim there can be no “already and not yet” today? But, Mike, have you experienced what you will receive in heaven yet? No you haven’t. So there is a “not yet” for you on an individual level. Now we are on the horns of a logical dilemma here. You say the “already and not yet” was confined to the transitional period. We Agree. But, it’s still going on after the objective establishment of this New Covenant Kingdom. You seem to disagree? Logically, of necessity, there is a “not yet” for you and this Kingdom because people in the future, who have “not yet” entered the Kingdom will do so someday by God sovereignly drawing them to Himself. So there is an “already and not yet” for us today…of necessity! It’s absurd to claim otherwise. You have said on many occasions that Christians will receive a new body in heaven, but do you possess that resurrected state fully now? No, you don’t. Seems like there is a real bind here. John claims that people will enter this Kingdom in Rev.21-22. Ongoing application of a definitive Kingdom. This New Covenant Kingdom and Judgment was definitively established at the Parousia (2 Tim.4:1). But it has ongoing effects. You wouldn’t disagree? That’s all we are saying. If that’s futurism, so be it. You are right there with us.
2.) Kim explicitly stated at the 38:00 mark that Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:45 sites Adam as Created, not Adam as fallen, as being mortal PRE-Fall. But, hey, I guess you didn’t listen that far? You heard enough right? We are claiming that Adam’s fallen order will progressively become no more THROUGH the growth of Christ’s Kingdom. That’s it. Christ removed the sting to physical death because of His atonement (which is progressively BEING applied to people today) but you disagree? You can mock and call it “futurism” all you want. But yet you claim people today need to repent and believe the Gospel and enter the New Covenant Kingdom. For what? Are you a futurist now? So many false antitheses are propagated by you in this comment.
I’m not apologizing for anything. Is it somehow “mean” for me or anyone to point out inconsistencies in the so called preterist community? Especially with the rabid antinomianism and universalism in FP. You criticize futurists all the time, Mike. Would it be logical for people to then clutch their pearls and cry for an apology? No. It’s apart of debate.
I would be happy to have a conversation with you on the phone and not in a comment section. I find that that’s where real discussion/debate needs to happen.
I agree, Spencer. My review will drop soon to evaluate Kim's claims.
Do you still hold this?
ua-cam.com/users/clipUgkxqf6Heey708pPwLtBHjPJMseeKUQhNURJ?si=yeLCNpQdjgqOACDf
Yes, in the sense of a definitive beginning of Judgement. I believe you and I will stand before Christ upon physical death. That judgement is “ongoing.” I think you would agree? Kim wouldn’t disagree. We talked about this for hours on the phone. Thanks.
@
You will find my upcoming review to be very interesting. I promise you that.
Acts 17:31 confirms your point as well.
But it doesn't fit Burgess' model.
@@SLS859
"The disciples understood the significance of this. They knew that Christ’s coming in judgment to destroy the Temple would mean the utter dissolution of Israel as the covenant nation. It would be the sign that God had divorced Israel, removing himself from their midst, taking the kingdom from her and giving it to another nation (Matt. 21:43). It would signal the end of the age, and the coming of an entirely new era in world history - Jesus Christ’s New World Order. From the beginning of creation until A.D. 70, the world was organized around one central Sanctuary, one single House of God. Now, in the New Covenant order, sanctuaries are established wherever true worship exists.”
David Chilton, Paradise Restored, p. 88.
Thanks Spencer good stuff. So Kim believes in the end of the world , did I catch that right?
Hey! Thanks the encouragement. This is from the first volume. Nobody knows what’s going to happen. We are just told where this world is heading, and that’s Christ’ Kingdom.
In these two transitions, there is a dual consummation. The New Covenant order. Has been completely consummated in the eschatological period of AD30-AD70 in OT Israel. The Old Covenant order is gone now (fulfilled in Christ), but the consummation of world history (of “this age” in Adam) is still underway per the “working out“ of the “coming age“ in Christ. Now, if you ask me, does the Bible ever, anywhere, say anything literally about the end of time, I would have to say, no, it does not. But that gets me into a problem because I cannot comprehend that. As to how it works, per the God-ordained laws of physics in this world, there is nothing merely physical or material that can or will last forever. I think that world history does have a telos (a goal) somewhere, but that is not what the Bible, first and foremost, was concerned about at all, subjective-wise. The Bible was primarily concerned about the objective establishment of the new covenant order in Christ.”
- Kim Burgess, The Hope of Israel and the Nations, vol.1, pg.6.
Thanks brother. Appreciate that.
I do wonder if this approach is about doing enough to avoid the ‘hyper preterist’ label. Anyway, merry Christmas
@@ulsterscot I'm not sure. I mean, FP means that Christ Returned and the Resurrection took place at the Parousia. That's it. But the true "hyper preterist" are the "Israel Only" crowd. I don't care if people call me a hyper preterist and I don't care if others label others as being one. I'm not in the business of crying about name calling to be honest. Doesn't bother me. The real nuance is that yes, the Parousia happened, the Kingdom is here. But there are ongoing applications of this completed or fulfilled event. That is all Kim is saying. The Kingdom is growing and is ongoing. It didn't "fill" the world in that transitional period...just the opposite.
@@SLS859 me too. I don’t care. I’m just trying to work out what is different between Kim’s position and, for example, don Preston? He and the others I listen too certainly don’t say the clock stopped in ad 70. Great channel v interesting interviews. If you ever get the opportunity to discuss genesis 1 (and the different theories) I’ve heard you refer to it in passing 👍🙏🤔 thanks again.
@@ulsterscotYes, I plan to have more discussions like this brother. Kim has been a FP for over 40 years. He has differences with Don and Mike, especially with that distinction between “covenant and age.” I plan to have him back on to go more in depth about that topic. Thanks, brother!
If the end of the age in Matt 13 was not the end of the Old Covenant in 70AD, then there's been no resurrection of OC saints from Hades to Heaven and we would still have to go to Hades when we die. Hades, THE Death, Satan, Demons, etc. would still be a reality today which means that Rev 20-22 are still yet future. What am I missing if that age is not yet over? I am just not seeing Kim's separatuon of the ages and covenants. I don't think it's valid. But I do agree that the entire created order of man is headed toward a universal belief in Christ and those outside of Christ are still in Adam and are still outside the gates of the heavenly city.
Good point!
That is fatal.
Spencer and Kim, I appreciate the work here but have some challenges yet. The Isaiah 49 reference to the ends of the 'earth' I thought we were interpreting (speaking about our consistent hermeneutic) 'earth' as 'the land' of Israel. Also; 'Thy Kingdom Come on 'Earth', would we not also interpret that under OC Israel as 'Land'. I'm not IO in the outworking of my faith in Christ, but am working to find consistency in preterism. This model being expounded in this presentation here still looks to have some kind of physical telos to world history and a continual looking for physical outcomes. IN Christ, sin and death are concluded as we become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. He is our righteousness. The Kingdom continues to be show-cased in our world today, the Holy people among the profane. The NHNE are here now (OC heaven and earth is gone under OC Israel story) also, now in Christ this is 'where righteousness dwells'. By faith we live in the righteousness of Christ. Great chat here but I'm still working through these things. I fear we diminish the Person and Work of Christ to fully redeem and cover our nakedness. Anyway, great chat. Obviously more to be said. Never the less, very helpful to me on my journey Blessings brothers.
Hey David! Good to hear from. It’s been a while. I would say that της γης (The land) or “ehrets” (land) is not to be confused with having only one definition. That would be a word concept fallacy. Just because one word is found to have a specific meaning in one place doesn’t necessarily mean that that same definition applies to another. Paul’s use of “cosmos” in Acts 17 for instance is not the Old Covenant “world.” He’s speaking to pagan philosophers, Paul was talking about the whole creation there that God made. While I can see “land” referring to the land of Jerusalem in Mt.24 and in Revelation in certain places. But, to say “land” means Israel or covenant world everywhere else is incorrect in my opinion For instance:
“Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth (της γης).” Rev.1:5
Thats not talking about the land of Israel there. John is claiming that Jesus Rules over everyone and every King. Hence His title “King of kings.” How many “kings” were in Israel? If “land” only means Israel think about how silly John’s claim here is.
Same issue with “ehrets.” I can show you numerous examples where “earth” is not referring to a covenant land or “world.” I’ve always wondered how Yah can call “Heaven and Earth” to witness against OC Israel?
“I call heaven and earth (ehrets) to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,” (Deuteronomy 30:19)
H&E can apply to OC Israel, no doubt. But in order for us not to engage in a word concept fallacy we need to make a distinction here. H&E here is not the covenant people or land that’s called to witness. It’s the physical creation, God’s creation.
I find that many in IO and FP constantly engage in terrible logic and exegesis. Word concept fallacies, composition fallacies, and terrible affirming the consequent fallacies. That’s has been my observation for the past two years. I’ve read Micheal Bradley’s book. I’m not impressed. I’ve listened to hours of DeCosta, I’m not impressed.
I plan to do some serious work in this area in the future on this channel. I’m open to having Tim Martin or other CC guys come on for a chat with the other side. I think this would be beneficial for the community of Preterism.
Anyway, I’m glad to hear from you brother. Hope all is well!
@@SLS859 thanks Spencer. Good words for me to ponder.
I am going to listen to this again. I think it is going to help.
I don't believe in sin before the fall I don't believe in an old earth I don't believe that it's only a spiritual death and a spiritual resurrection. Those seem to be shoehorned and necessary to make 70 !!!! Full preterism work.
Thanks for your input! I hope you will check out those podcasts from Kim and Gary DeMar in the description!
@SLS859 I will. Thank you
I think that Christians who think that God is concerned with people dying and going to heaven, have completely missed their purpose.
Yes, it gets to the question: why the hell are we even here?
@@SLS859 we(Christians) are here to fulfill God's prophecy of God creating men in His image. Only Christians have the image of Christ in them, The prophets spoke of a time that was coming when Israel would be restored and that restoration would be fulfilled by men coming into the NC and having God dwelling in them.
We are not created to be in the image of God as in a human 'idol' of God, but we were created to have God Himself in us. God's image in man is God Himself living in men. Having God in us is a blessing that cannot be competed with. And that blessing of being united with God, is what God purpose is for His children who are walking through this dark world. I could care a less about dying because I know that I will be still united to God when I die physically, just as I am united to God while alive physically. Nothing will change in my spiritual status of being united to God, so why should I concern myself with physical death. And for the record even those who do not have the connection to God in this physical world will be joined into Christ and made alive in the Spirit because their flesh(natural body in Adam) will be judged and removed from them when face to face with the power of Christ, who subdues all things to Himself.
The gospel of Christ is what humanity needs, and not because they need to be insured that they go to heaven when they die, but so that they can be blessed in this life and have that union with God now.
I have a lot to say on some of the misrepresentations of the scriptures, but the 'dead' in Luke 20:35 is about the spiritually dead and not the physically dead.
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
Kim does not understand that the Adamic body of sin is not the physical body of man. Adam's physical body did not change when he sinned.
Physical death is not how God deals with the body of sin that is inherited through Adam
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Men share in a death like Christ(verse 5) when they receive the HS and the Adamic body of sin in man is put to death and crucified with Christ. And by sharing in the death that Christ suffered at the HS baptism, is the moment of that believer's resurrection to life in Christ
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Paul is not speaking of physical death in verse 7, Paul is talking about the death and crucifixion of that Adamic nature that was enslaving the unbeliever to sin. Those who do not have the baptism of the HS, have not been baptized into Christ's death and they are not yet freed from the body of sin that lives within them.
38:00 mark.
@@SLS859 yes but I am referring to where Kim says that the body of sin is done away with by a physical death.
I would also add that 'flesh and blood' in 1 Cor 15 is not referring to the human physical body not inheriting the kingdom of God, it is referring to the natural body of Adam, aka the corruptible body, and is referring to that natural body of OC Israel.
The blessings of God under the OC were based on having the correct DNA(flesh and blood) as that corruptible body of OC Israel was in.
@@SLS859 I recommend a word search on what 'natural' means Paul uses that same Greek word here
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural(psuchikos) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This is not referring to a physical man being unable to understand spiritual matters of God, or Christ as a physical man would have fallen into that category as well.
psuchikos: Natural, unspiritual, worldly
Original Word: ψυχικός
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: psuchikos
Pronunciation: psoo-khee-kos'
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khee-kos')
Definition: Natural, unspiritual, worldly
Meaning: animal, natural, sensuous.
James also used the same word (psuchikos) here for 'sensual'
James 3
15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual(psuchikos), demonic.
Jude also used it here
19 These are sensual(psuchikos) persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
Other than those four other times that Paul used the word in 1 Cor 15, these are the only times the word (psuchikos) is used in the NT
a 'natural' body is a body that is spiritually dead and in Adam, it is that 'natural' body that dies when a person is baptised into Christ's death(crucified with Christ) and born of the Spirit.
@@ophiuchus9071 very good. Theonomy still bangs on about law. They miss the whole, you are not under law but grace. Died with Christ, raised with Christ. New creation in the second Adam. All scripture is Fulfilled.
Ah, yes. The Platonic Christianity religion of escape from this cursed world strikes again!
And here we have the guy with attachments to the physical on Steroids, anthropomorphism as well, the guy who thinks Heaven is a dirty word striking again!
Sorry pal, I'll take a glorified body and Heavenly Unseen Realm existence any day over this!
Pathetic
1 Cor 15
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body
Paul does not say there is presently a natural body and there will be a spiritual body in the future.
Both the natural body and the spiritual body were existing in the present at that time when Paul wrote
The natural body was OC Israel
The spiritual body is the NC body of Christ
The OC body of Israel was sown and the NC body of Christ was raised
Hosea 2: 23
Then I will sow her(OC israel) for Myself in the earth,
Hosea 6
Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
Jesus death and resurrection represented Israel's death and resurrection
When Paul made this comment in
1 Cor 15
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
He was quoting Hosea's prophecy concerning Israel, because there is no mention of a third day resurrection anywhere in the scriptures except for in Hosea 6
I have issue with calling Christians as being still sinners. Sinners are those who do not believe in Christ, and not those who do believe in Christ.
The HS would never convict a believer of sin. The believer is cleansed from all unrighteousness.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
John was writing his letter to Jewish Christians who were raised on the belief that Gentiles were sinners and Jews were not sinners
The Jews were claiming they were sinless as a race of people, because they had God as their father
John 8
41 Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father-God.”
Those who were claiming they had no sin were Jews still stuck in the OC thought, and they were claiming to be sinless because they considered that because they were Jews, then they were God's children.
No one in their right mind even a Jew, considered themselves as perfect and without sin, when it came to them and their personal lifestyles. They fully understood they had personally sinned and that is why they offered sacrifices to God every year for atonement from their sins.
The term and concept "redemption applied" needs to be more exploited.
This may help:
“Redemption accomplished is what I mean when I call myself a “Consistent Preterist.” That means, as I have said before, that, per the Person and the objective, covenantal work of Christ, “it is finished”; “it is done.“ It was completed or consummated in that period between AD30 and AD70 that was the eschaton or the “last days” of OT Israel. There is your Full or Consistent Preterism!! BUT has it all been “worked out” yet? Has it all been applied among the gentile nations yet? Am I a sinless (sin-free) individual yet? No, I am not. Do I have my eternal resurrection embodiment yet? No, I do not. Therefore, there MUST be something more beyond the landmark eschatological year of AD70! Yes, that something more is redemption applied! There is your Partial Preterism!! The application of redemption has begun; it is an ongoing process, but it is not finished yet. In other words, we must stop creating false dichotomies! Stop creating false dualisms, a false “either-or“ between full preterism and partial preterism and start having a “both-and” mentality of unity and diversity, diversity and unity. Redemption accomplished, it is done, it is finished! This is the biblical meaning of genuine full or consistent preterism. Period. But redemption applied? That is partial preterism! It is a redemptive work that is still in process in the world per the person and work of the Holy Spirit. If only people could get hold of this vital distinction, I think it would catapult the preterist debate into a whole new, much-more-productive level, a level where we can get past this creation of false dichotomies- either full or partial Preterism-and stop throwing rocks at each other.”
- Kim Burgess, The Hope of Israel and the Nations, vol.1, pg.31
I don't think Kim understands Luke 20. The age of resurrection was not existing at that time, but it would come into existence in the 1st century when OC saints were resurrected from Hades to Heaven. There's no marriage in Heaven. No man had gone to Heaven until then. It's not talking about an age that's yet future to use. Only those worthy from the OC would partake of that resurrection and thus, no marriage in their resurrected state. I mulled over this passage in the Greek for a while until it dawned on me and some of our translations do not help. Again, if that age to come is not yet a current reality, then we still go to Hades when we die (but we know that we don't).
The “age” to come is not simply reduced to “world history.” Yes. Kim wouldn’t disagree with this. You need to listen to the podcasts or his recent podcast with Gary DeMar on 1 Thess 4. Yes, we are in “the coming age” AS Christian’s. But what about those who aren’t? Where are they? What “age” are they in? Kim claims they are in the “age” of Adam, of fallen humanity. The question Kim is asking is: is “age” and “covenant” synonymous? Connected, yes. But not necessarily one and the same. OC Israel’s Eschaton dealt a definitive death blow to the “age/world” of fallen humanity. I’d be happy to explain on the phone. Just pm me.
“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil AGE, according to the will of our God and Father,”
Galatians 1:3-4
“Based on what he (Paul) had to say about “the Law” (the whole Old Covenant order) in Romans 7:12,14-“ the Law is holy, and… righteous and good… the Law is spiritual”- would Paul, in his right mind, ever have called the Mosaic/Old Covenant order an “evil age.” Of course not! There was nothing wrong with “the Law” per se (1 Tim.1:8). True, the Law, being “weak,” was not able to deal with sin in Adam, due to the power of “the flesh” (sinful human nature, Rom.8:3), but there was nothing wrong with Moses and the Law. “Moses wrote about Me,” Jesus said in John 5:46. This tells me that the “present evil age” here is in the Adamic or world-order sphere. Besides, Paul is addressing Gentiles for the most part in the Galatian churches and, as Gentiles, they were never formally under the Old Covenant order. Only the Jews were under it, along with any Gentile proselytes to Judaism.
“And you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,”
Ephesians 2:1-2
“In which you formerly walked”- now the New American Standard translates it as “according to the course of this world,” but the actual Greek is, according to THE AGE OF THIS WORLD.” See how Paul deliberately links “the age“ with “this world“ (kosmos)? By “age,” he means world order, and by this world order he means the world that flows out of fallen Adam- the world of “sin, condemnation, and death” in Adam (Rom 5:12-19). And, once again, Paul is addressing Gentiles in the world, not Jews still under the Old Covenant order in Israel. “This age” in the NT is not simply “the Old Covenant age” as we are being told by all the AD-70 full stop Preterists. It is rather this age/this world-order in fallen Adam.
“There are two transitions going on in the NT, not just one. The transition of covenantal administrations from Moses to Christ; this is done. It was all finished and consummated in AD 70. But this leading transition is what sets the Preterist eschatological paradigm. It serves to bring the New Covenant Kingdom of God into being. But this then sparks the second transition that is now going on in the world on the world stage- the transition between the two ages. I prefer to label these two eschatological transitions, respectively, as “micro-eschatology” (in OT Israel; Moses to Christ; done!) and “macro-eschatology” (in the world order; Adam to Christ; yet underway today). Again, the eschatological goal on the “macro” level is for the Kingdom leaven, brought into the world by the transition from Moses/Old Covenant to Christ/New Covenant, to transform the world, transform the nations, so that this coming age and world history will indeed be one and the same, eventually, in existential or experiential terms.”
- The Hope of Israel and the Nations, pg.272
@@SLS859 I'd agree that age doesn't equal covenant but I would say that the existence of the 2 covenants and 2 ages are the same in their timing. There wasn't just a raising of OC age saints from Hades to Heaven in the 1st century. There was also the casting of the OC age unregenerate into the Lake of Fire to receive the 2nd Death. Whether one wants to take that as eternal conscious torment or annihilation in the Lake of Fire is up for debate. Now, when the unregenerate (those still in Adam who are outside the city) die, they get the 2nd Death in the LOF immediately. That did not occur during the OC age. I think that's the covenantal transition that went hand in hand with the age transition among those who die in Adam. I am no preterist universalist.
I've listened to the podcast series twice but I haven't listened to the recent episodes on Gary's podcast. I plan to. The "Gary DeMar Debacle" in early 2023 is what introduced me to full preterism.
I'm hesitant to borrow the language of leaven from Matt 13 like Kim does to explain what's going on today. Jesus in Matt 13 is clearly talking about the present age in existence then and not something beyond His parousia in 70AD. Leaven (yeast) doesn't turn the whole lump into leaven. However, it does permeate the entire loaf such that it is everywhere though it can't be seen. This happened in the cosmos (heaven and earth) that existed at that time. The gospel was preached and people believed throughout the entire oikumene by 70AD, which was exactly what needed to happen before Jesus' 2nd coming. That cosmos passed away then and we are in the new heavens and new earth now. Thus, the age of that world (cosmos) also passed away. The rule of the power of the air is no longer around because he was also thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the OC unregenerate who were also in Hades, albeit in a place of torment (Luke 16).
I will email you to hopefully line up a phone call. I'm another guy who went from dispen(sen)sationalism to postmill to full preterism, all in a pretty short timeframe. I can probably thank Ken Gentry (much to his dismay! haha) more than anyone for that transition. I enjoy your channel and it'd be great to connect.
Very impressive, Kim Burgess is my new favorite.
Yes, Kim is top notch. Have you listened to his 25 podcast series with Gary DeMar?
Adam was a “type” and Christ the “antitype”. A type and antitype cannot coexist together forever. Christ IS the “Federal Head” now. We are here to be “imagers” in the world around us. The “gospel” is “everlasting” (Rev 14:6). The “gates” of the city are always open. The “nations” (Gen 10 and 11) were regathered as the “fullness of the gentiles” (Rom 11:25) and redemptive history was consummated.
Not every human being is a descendent of Adam. Adam was a high priest over Gods covenant creation.
In order to be in covenant relationship with God, you had to be under a mediator which was Israel under the old covenant. Now Christ is the eternal high priest and you can come into covenant relationship with God by simple faith without the weight of the Law on your conscience.
Christians are not in Adam, they are a new creation in Christ.
Which then begs the question: “why should I be a new creation in Christ if I was never affected by Adam’ fall?”
@ Only if you want to be in covenant relationship with God. It is done through Christ.
Jesus was the last Adam, there are no Adam’s alive today.
1 Corinthians 15:45
45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; [m] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Adams = Israelites under the old covenant.
Christ was born under the Law to redeem those who were born under the Law (Galatians 4:4-5). You and anyone else alive today were not born under the Law as a Jew.
Hebrews 2:17
17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Being made just like His brothers = being born a Jew under the old covenant Law.
@ Premise 1) Adam is the source of the problem (fall) that Jesus Redeemed.
Premise 2) Nobody today is effected by Adam’s problem (fall).
Conclusion) Christ’ Salvation applies to nobody today.
Welcome to IO
@ So would you apply Galatians 4:4-5 to yourself as someone born under the Law?
Also would you say Christ wasn’t the last Adam?
I don’t know how you exegete those verses and make them about people living today.
Romans 11:25 says, "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved..."
The point is WHOEVER Israel is, (some argue for national Israel, some for Spiritual Israel) they can't be saved UNTIL ALL the Gentiles that are going to be saved (the FULLNESS of the gentiles) are finally saved, and THEN "all Israel" whoever you say they are, will be saved. Are you saying ALL the Gentiles who will ever be saved, got saved in the first century? Then 1900 years of people professing Jesus SINCE the first century, were TOO late and are NOT really saved. That means you and me as well.
I am saying, "NO the fullness of the Gentiles did NOT happen in the first century, and you and I did NOT believe in Christ in vain. AND I believe there have been 1900 years or 49 generations of people coming to Jesus Christ and being born again. Each person in the last 49 generations are fulfilled prophecy of people turning to Christ for the forgiveness of sin. If ALL Israel and All Gentiles were saved in the first Century, then ALL witnessing and ministry is a complete waste of time. Can you not see that is exactly what Satan wants: "Don't waste your time. It too late."
Again, everyone fits in one of these categories: Jew (Israel) or Gentile. I believe prophecy is being fulfilled EVERY day: some Jews are being saved, and even more Gentiles are coming to Christ. I am assuming you are saved. Are you Jewish in your ethnicity? If NOT, then according to the Bible, you are a Gentile.
Bottom line is this: IF ALL prophecy was fulfilled in the first century then NOBODY was saved AFTER the first century. ALL people saved are either in the PROPHESIED "All Israel" or the "Fullness of the Gentiles."
2 TOTALLY CONFUSED MEN!!!!
Why? Because some of what you've stated is right and some is WRONG!!!!
KIM! You need to slow down AND calm down!!!! You are in errors!!!!
Keep crying
@SLS859 YOU ARE MIXED UP! YOU ARE TOTALLY CONFUSED!!!!!!!!!!
Full preterism is a delisional joke snd im embarresed for them, something did happen in 70 ad but i rhink we are in rev 20 but im just a trurh , full preterist are crazy
Full Preterism is right to say the Parousia happened in AD70. But Kim and I are questioning the narrative in Full Preterism. Some say that there is nothing more to world history. As if the kingdom is here and all we have is an endless cycle of existence. No. This New Covenant Kingdom will progressively grow and fill this world for Christ. There is a “telos” to world history. And I don’t mean that as “end,” as if it’s just world destruction. I mean “telos” as in “goal, or aim.” There is a goal, there is a purpose and plan to this world. And that’s Christ and His Kingdom. God will work out the details.
@SLS859 I don't know, I do know full preterism isn't sufficient , nor is partial , something happened in 70ad but not all things , let it unfold and let God reveal , either way nomatter the timeline the gospel of Jesus Christ is sufficient in all timelines, it's out ticket out of here nomatter when we are
@@SLS859 Judgement on the nations in AD 70, beyond the context of Israel-only, falsifies this paradigm. Stick with Peter over Burgess.
"Let us be clear about this: The destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem was not merely the end of the Hebrew-Israelite-Jewish period of history that began with Abraham. It was the end of the entire Old Creation from Adam forward. The Church is the replacement not merely of Israel, but also the older and larger Gentile world that began with Adam and continued through the Noahic covenant. The Kingdom of Jesus is a wholly New Creation and nothing less."
James B. Jordan, Matthew 23-25: A Literary, Historical, and Theological Commentary.
Chapter titled, "The Judgment of the Old Creation," p. 69.
@@Real1Rare1Amen. Keep your eyes focused on Christ and His Sacrifice. That’s all that matters brother
@@SLS859 absolutely 🙏
Very boring as usual.
Then you should probably go start your own channel and make videos telling everyone about your version of Christianity. The world desperately needs your content, Jack!
@@SLS859 Is that how you roll? Saving the world with theonomy crusade?
PS I don't do religion. BTW. I like trolling you. Hoping that you might come to your senses and see that we are not under law.