German Watchmaking in World War 2 and Today - Part 1. STOWA
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- Опубліковано 7 лис 2019
- In this video I report about the German watch manufacturer Stowa, about the history of the company, the most famous wristwatches and the Flieger type watch.
You find here also the review of a Stowa Flieger Klassik 40 mm automatic and some thoughts about World War 2 and the moral implications.
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Do you have any suggestions for Part 2? Which company could be next?
Laco, surely?
Archimede.
Dornblüth & Sohn would be a good choice.
Well, more a suggestion for a series: Pforzheim seems to be one area with a few interesting companies - as is Glashütte with at least two. That's potentially six further parts right there, I think.
Damasko please
Like you Tim, I don’t see swastikas, lightning bolts or glorification of a certain odious ideology, I see a finely crafted timepiece. It’s just a watch in my humble opinion.
Totally agree with you.
Some amazingly brilliant people made this watch
There's no bad ideology inside this watch, just good pure good and all the bad stuff was left outside of the watch factory.
It's simply a historic design that is still appealing. Also, the watches produced today are a far cry from the watches produced for the German troops - the size, the movements, sapphire crystal, blue treatment on hands and screws, a transparent back allowing viewing of the movement. The WWII fliegers were mass produced, the present day watches by Stowa, Laco, IWC, A. Lange, etc, are fine examples of the watchmaking craft.
@@balesjothe craftsmanship of the originals is much more impressive than the cheap modern ones, which aren’t even real pilot watches.
Good on you for facing the "moral dilemma" of the technology - STOWA makes good timepieces.
Concern over the "moral implications" of wearing a flieger watch is a symptom of too much time spent looking through the wrong end of a telescope.
That’s like being concerned about Volkswagen, Porsche, BMW, and that’s effed.
1.: I own this watch since over a year and I love it. It is more or less daily on my wrist. Very versatile and the quality is brilliant.
2.: There are many other watches which were worn by soldiers who killed other people... therefore many other watches should be criticised as well. Many of the luxuary timepieces have been worn by criminals and drug-lords and still people love the watches and don't think about crimes and so on...
So calm down and enjoy the watches and the hobby!
By the way: Please contunie with Sinn ;-)
Beste Grüße,
Frankie
An eloquent and yet modest take on WWII memorabilia. You handled this delicate subject with sensitivity.
There is no moral issue. If you can't seperate a watch from the crimes commit in WW2 then you are very immature. I would like to see you make a tutorial on how to pick a suit.
Tim- when my wife asked me why I bought a Lange Datograph , I replied I was protesting the Swiss for being the banker of the Nazis .
I don't care about any moral issues. I just like German watches with interesting history behind them.
I'm glad you touched base on the "Moral aspect" of the Flieger watch. Seems like everyone else that reviews these watches and is German act like there is no dark side to this historic watch. What the Nazi war machine did was terrible...no doubt. But we shouldn't blame items or the current German people for what the Nazi party did. Just like we should blame Jews/Romans(Italians) for killing Jesus. We shouldn't blame VW/Porsche/Mercedes Benz..etc for making vehicles during WWII. So many other companies from around the world used the war to make money including the US. As for the Flieger watch...they are simple, great looking and engineered to work. I love the design and am going to buy that watch because of it technical aspect.
yes I saw Stowa at the windup watch fair in new york. I was impressed by the quality and styling of the pieces
Hands down, no pun intended, Tim is the best of the many watch reviewers on youtube.
Hey Tim! You are doing a great job with your videos! Thanks for all the information and entertainment!
Thanks for the review Tim. RE: the moral aspect of buying a watch that is an homage to a German WWII pilots model, I personally don't see a problem. My family is Jewish, so anything Nazi related is a sensitive topic for us. Despite this, I had an Archimede Flieger that is of a similar design to your Stowa that I gifted to my son and he wears it most of the time. It is no more a problem morally than someone buying a Volkswagen, or maybe a Mitsubishi. That said, in my minds, the moral aspect of owning a homage to something from that period of history has to do with why you are collecting such an item and is it part of a larger interest in collecting Nazi memorabilia. If your interest is watches, or Fliegers, or even WWII vintage Fliegers, than I don't see a problem. When would I say you have a problem? I have a story.
Some years ago, I was taking care of my father's estate in Florida and I needed transportation to the airport. Surprisingly often, these airport limo guys talk about themselves, this limo driver was no exception. This guy started telling my his passion, which was WWII German aviation. His personal favorite was the Messerschmitt ME 109. So, he tells me, he has a room full of stuff related to German fighters and bombers from that era.. He assured me he was in no way a Nazi, but nonetheless had a great admiration for the technical achievements of the Luftwaffe.
Frankly I was not so sure. If the guy told me that he was interested in WWII aviation and as part of that, he collected memorabilia from both the RAF, US Army Air Corps, and Luftwaffe, I would be less perpelexed. But just Nazi aviation memorabilia? To quote Shakespeare, "The lady doth protest too much." My bet is, he collects all kinds of Nazi memorabilia and frankly, this is a collection I have no interest in seeing, or even hearing about.
German engineering should be appreciated and world needs such engineering marvel
Excellent work, Tim. This is the most intelligent watch channel of them all (& often very funny, too!).
Great review. First review of flieger watches I have seen touching the moral dilemma. Thank you for bringing this into the light
Thank you. looking forward to the series unfolding.
I absolutely love that watch and would like to purchase one in the future, thanks Tim for another great video and including other topics is fine with me.
well done for talking about this head on. i am from England (Birmingham) and after all this time , it is in the past. England has had wars with numerous countries overs the centuries and they seem to be forgotten. People here seem to enjoy driving expensive German cars without any problems with the past.
Love the timing of this, literally just bought a Partitio last week
thank you for the delicate and acurate analisys of the Germean history and watch fenomenon.
I agree and empathise with all you said. ( Scottish living in France ).
Thanks for watching!
Greetings from Australia! I have the limited edition 90th anniversary Stowa 41mm Klassik Flieger 6498. I love it! It is one tough looking watch and the movement is a joy to see.
Excellent video. I am very glad I ordered mine sterile with no date or branding like yours. It’s a tool watch as you said
Hi Tim. With me you were talking to the converted, I purchased my Stowa Flieger 40mm about three weeks ago after much deliberation. I was prepared to spend considerably more but in the end I couldn't see the point, this is a great everyday watch at what I consider a very reasonable price. Love your work by the way, keep them coming.
History is interesting.. and there to learn from so we don't make the same mistakes twice.. we are here because we appreciate a nicely made watches...
Just from the standpoint of a person who likes the art on crafting hand watches I absolutely adore the class and minimalist/vintage look of this hand watch, and I really enjoyed your video plenty of interesting historical facts and technical information. I hope can afford one or two of these legit Flieger Watches in the future. Thanks for your content.
Great review Tim as always and a really great subject in a real tool watch in the form of a Pilots watch. I really like the Stowa models because you can also customize your watch with a choice of movements, with or without logos, date or no date. I would always chose the no date manual wind movement which is usually the ETA 2801. I think Laco would be a good choice for part 2. Thanks again Tim and keep up the good work.
Personally I dont see a morale issue with German made time pieces, I have been collecting "Dirty Dozen" time pieces with my now up daughters at flea markets for over 15 years & just got a nice full collection at Auction. Many people collect various types of miltary items Tim.
I love the Stowa Classic 40, I want to get one with the date though! Great watch and review!!
I love german watches .. thanks for the videos Tim, alway great. and yeah i think you it would be no harm branching out on topics for your channel
I consider the “moral issue” to be completely addressed via consumerism. Anyone is free to choose not to spend their money on any German, Japanese, Italian or American product. Three of my great uncles served in the 101st Airborne and U.S. Army and saw action during WW 2; two of them in Germany. Yet I was raised, by my family, including my uncles, to appreciate craftsmanship and masterful engineering as an affirmation of life. Yes, in it’s day, a B-Uhr watch was a war tool that contributed to death and destruction. Today, however, it is practically antiquated as a war tool. I don’t think there is anything wrong with appreciating it as a beautiful object. As an American, in fact, issues of our own Civil War in the 1860s raise more pressing “moral issues” than do WW 2.
I would love to see more about tayloring and menswear! A video series on the leather briefcase would also be incredible!
Great idea! great execution!
Love your videos, Tim! Would definitely like to see more style videos. Also, have you had much experience with Certina watches? They don't seem to get much coverage, but I recently picked up a vintage Bristol 235 and it's become a favourite.
Another well thought out and presented video Tim! Another aspect to justifying the conflicting feelings of wearing a "WW2 inspired" watch is to realize that, although the opposing characters and the motives of that war were horrendous and defied all human decency, there were many things that were developed and used that became part of everyday post-war life for the rest of the world. One example is the Saturn rocket developed by the German scientist, Wernher von Braun, which propelled American men to the moon. Also, if we are to judge a particular watch style as "immoral" or "as a homage to evil" then we must hold accountable all the other watch brands that come from the venerable Bauhaus. Consider also that we should ban all German chocolate cake, Volkswagons, X-rays, gummy bears and even the Easter Bunny!
Love Flieger styled watches and love Stowa as a brand/mfg.
Your apologetic speech of 3 reasons to consider others feelings was tastefully done, as always. We can’t move to the future without acknowledging the past. As the human race, we have done and unfortunately, will do ignorant and vile things on and to this world. But to talk about it is to not forget about it. The danger comes when we forget about it or not speak of it... then we are doomed to repeat history.
Thank you for your hard and tasteful work my friend!
I think you have a pretty good balance Tim.I am of course biased toward more guitar outros but would happily watch other stuff as well.
Love all your reviews Tim! That Telecaster in the back got me from the start! ✌🏻😀
Thank you, and your observation is very close: Stratocaster ;-)
@@CasebackWatches ye, couldnt see the entire headstock. And if thats an upright piano, maybe it could be an elegant background with the keyboard lid open. Fits the topic and your attire ;) Look fwd to your future content.
I own a Stowa and I gotta say, they have great leather straps.
I really like when you talk about WW2 watches please do more
Another great video and a lovely watch.
5:35 "no fancy crap at all" - and that's why I got a flieger last year.
Ha...I just finished reading their wonderful book/catalog last evening. A very interesting history of the company and their designs.
Im from Rotterdam and I've just bought a flieger 40mm. Cheers!
Good choice!
Cheers for pointing out the ghost date thing. Hate that, and it hadn't occurred to me despite knowing it's a 2824, duh. Happily these can be ordered as manual wind ... though I don't think they're any thinner that way, which would be nice. Or it can be had with the date window if one wanted ... that. Anyway, I may get one, perhaps the Verus version. They seem like actual watchfolk there at Stowa, and it shows. And I need a banger, which is one step above beater. I like the SARX035 too, but they're impossible to find, and this seems like more watch for similar numbers.
While the design of these watches has long appealed to watch enthusiast, it is important to remember that under the Nazi Regime the German military-known as the Wehrmacht-participated in Nazi crimes, including the Holocaust. Germany's air force during WW2 called Luftwaffe commissioned IWC, Stowa, Laco, Wempe and A. Lange & Söhne to build the B-Uhren. Pretty dark history surrounding these watches.
I have a flieger klassik 40mm handaufzug. Love it. It's a great daily wear piece.
Nice video Tim I personally like the hand winding version of this watch one reason is that the movment fills all of the case as in my opinion it should do I have actually built a a watch like this using a 6497 movment with very nearly the same dial for under £300 pounds it does not have sapphire glass but looks very good .
Great review - your videos are some of the most intelligent in the watch world. In re. the moral dilemma, we live in an absurdly sensitive era. People can always find something to offend them, don't worry about it. Remember that one of the most popular autos in the US and UK during the 60s - only 15-25 years after the war ended - was the VW Beetle, which was actually designed by F. Porsche for Hitler. I think Stowa Fliegers can get a pass 75 years later. Also note that one of the original flieger manufacturers contracted by the Luftwaffe was IWC, which also made watches for the allies - they're just mechanical tools, no moral issue at all. Laco nachste, bitte.
Not to mention Wernher von Braun, the Nazi aeronautical engineer that later became the father of Nasa space program. No comments!
Would absolutely LOVE to have a Glashutte Original Senator Chronograph. Black dial. So handsome.
My parents were both in the armed services during the war as were 4 of my uncles. The two on my father's side did not survive the war. My wife's father was forced into the German army and she was a baby in Berlin during the blockade so I have a lot of history with WWII even though I was born after the war. I bear no malice towards Stowa; they likely had no choice about producing watches for the Luftwaffe. I find the 36mm Stowa marine classic very appealing.
BTW the Flieger Klassik 40 is such a strap queen. You can put it on anything and it will look good - shark mesh, alligator, crocodile, ostrich, lizard, NATO, Zulu, calfskin, two-stitch vintage Italian, shell cordovan...anything you can think to try will probably work.
Very interesting thoughts Tim. Personally I would buy a Focke-Wulf watch if I could.
It was good to hear you speak on the moral side of these types of watches. I often consider them in the same regard as Leica - tools used for support of the war, but no longer regarded as such.
Or Mercedes-Benz, or Volkswagen, or Auto Union (Audi today) or Zeiss, etc.
You have done a very good job of addressing the german watch history. I personally think it is a little too sensitive and far fetched for people to attack you yourself for reviewing watches, but you did a very good job. I look at them as I look at BMWs or Mercedes. Great quality and tradition of german engineering.
I just bought one of these used on ebay, I can't wait!. Oh and I find it about as controversial as buying a new VW, BMW or Mercedes Benz...
i agree the germans make some of the best quality watches...good job tim
Was für ein cooler Mann mit Verstand!
Nice, honest video. Thank you. I just feel war, esp. that war, was destructive enough, so let's not further destroy that which has survived it, in this case, Stowa aviation watches. I do fully understand that others may view it differently and that is quite OK. I appreciate your honesty in tacking the issue. Folks have made similar issues with regard to Panerai. But I think we should celebrate the military virtues these watches convey in an effort to come together and move on.
Hey Tim, I'm glad to learn about a watch company previously unknown to me, particularly one that makes pieces so easy-on-the-eyes, as the one featured here.
Unrelated to the video, I'd like to ask if you know of similar watches to the Straton Curve Chrono.
I'm a big fan of the marriage between brushed and matte metal on the case, its oval shape, & look of the 'tucked' lugs. I especially fell in love with the green dial version.
That being said, I think the watch is unreasonably priced, & I'm not a fan of the meca-q movement.
This is not the first time I discover a watch maker via your channel, so I'm hoping you can lend a hand on this horological hunt. Fellow commenters are also encouraged to voice their opinions!
WoW-⁷W!ell Done! Informative, genuine and informative.
Tim, I commend your decision to address the 'moral issue', but not sure why you need to. A watch is not a weapon or a symbol of any ideology, it's just something that tells the time. Yes of course there are 'military' watches, but they still only tell the time - just with large clear markings.
It's interesting to note that amongst gun collectors (mostly in the US) German WWII rifles, pistols and especially machine guns are highly valued. Actual weapons that may have killed tens or even hundreds of people. So I feel those complaining about watches are looking in the wrong place.
David B , I suspect anyone complaining about a watch, especially a watch with a sterile dial, is merely looking for an excuse to be outraged. The logical extension is to be outraged with German, Japanese and Italian cars and products. Pizza, sushi and lager beer - the horror (I’m obviously making a mocking sentence here). Time for everyone to not forget but, move forward with a proper understanding of historical context and it’s relevance to today’s world.
for the next session? LACO of course!! the best version of fliegers!
Hans, bring me ze Fliegerwatch! Jk, lovely pieces and nicely explained and reviewed!
Good stuff again. I doubt there was much choice about producing for the state . Like my Marine Klassic Roman 40 no date very much.Discrete logo,timeless dial with blued hands,TOP movement. Excellent customer service. Coming up to our Rememberance Day my father and his comrades don't seem to hold any grudges and have moved on .
Nice video and would be an interesting series. A watch like this wouldn't be a problem in my opinion, a lot of fashion goods(jackets and boots for example) are inspired by historical military products. Wearing a real beobachtungsuhr would maybe be a bigger problem to some
Its all cool man,my favourite is the film The boat in German about the sub .
Dear Tim,
Thanks again for another interesting Video.
Suggestion? Since you started with Pforzheim and you mentioned the Black Forrest, why do not do a video about another very interesting company from Schramberg? They also had a very moving history ;-)
Interesting to see what you come up next for the second part.
BR,
MIguel
I have both Stowa & Laco...love them!
On the side note: if you are Watch enthusiast, don't mix politics & hobby. Watches are just watches, period!
Cheers...
I enjoy my Flieger Classic. Not sure about the Antea. Next one might be the Marine Original.
I don't have the Stowa (nice watch) but a similar one from Aristo.
Love it.
Tim I am in total agreement with you on your views pertaining to the WW2 history of the Luftwaffen. It's history. History is for a civilised society to learn from, so that good can come out of it. As for Germany today so much good and benefit has come out.
Both my grandfather (He was killed in WW2) and my beloved father were smack in the middle of WW2. My father told me what happened, he made sure we learned about it and be positive.
As for Flieger watches from Germany, I choose Baumuster B from Laco. The legibility is No1. I can understand why the switch from Baumuster A to Baumuster B.
For a Mission Critical Timer I chose the SINN U2 SDR EZM5 case made with deutscher u boot stahl.
I appreciate your honesty and your watch channel. I am looking to march forward in time with time. Thank you.
Don't forget their marine designs. Very nice, too. Part of the larger appearance of the b-uhr watch despite its 40 mm diameter is due to not having a sloped chapter ring and having a narrow bezel. Gives you a 34.5 mm diameter dial. Love the blued hands. Yes, that price is a bit much for a simple watch, considering I put together a very close replica for around $250 with a very nice Miyota 9xxx series. You could also grab a San Martin on eBay and upgrade with an ETA 2836 (next project?) My own moral conflict with the the watch is that I don't feel super comfortable buying one from a German mfr with war production history, especially when the price seems out of line, like Laco at $400+ with an asian movement. For me it is more about the wearing and enjoying design of the watch, so I buy it and additional parts from a nation known for it positive support of human rights.... China! So, yes, it's something we have to decide for ourselves. Now, what to do about my Krups coffee maker? And our dessert in the USA, German Chocolate cake. And Bosch spark plug made by... the Bosch. On a serious note, I really appreciate your sharing your father's story with us. No one wins in these conflicts except the industry titans with Swiss bank accounts. Kind regards, Mark
I'm a bit of a fence sitter on the war time subject, but as an Englishman I can't criticise too heavily when I have owned and loved a bmw. A superb car.
My only complaint is that you failed to mention the outstanding dive watches Stowa makes. I really like the Seatime pro. I wouldn’t worry about the delicate people who are offended by a wristwatch because of the time period for which it was used in. Grow up people it’s a watch.
Subscribed!
Every country has its own moral dilemma. Belgium with the Congo, the UK with India and many other places, America with its own Indian genocide etc etc.. Germany is in living memory so a somewhat open wound. But anyone implying you shouldn't talk about Flieger watches is simply deflecting.
Thanks for the subscription!
Nice watch.
I don't have an Instagram account and I don't want to get one but I would like to see more on UA-cam. Stowa is a great watch and you would take the 40mm. You can't test them in a shop, so I wasn't not sure.
Thanks for talking about this moral aspect! I also like the Flieger watch style for its simplicity and boldness and I always appreciate historic connection of a piece. But this being a watch type used by the Nazis also gives me mixed feelings. I think Stowa makes it pretty clear that they just keep their own history alive by also having a reference to the first true Bauhaus watch in their collection. Nazis hated the Bauhaus ideas. Does this make other brands which don't have such a thing, like Laco, Nazi brands? Not at all! Nobody could expect them to not keep a connection to their own past. You also don't blame VW for having their new Beetle/Käfer. But if you want a classic Flieger-style watch and you don't want any connection to Germany at the time, you could always get a remake of a non-German model, like a Hamilton or an IWC for example. Or you could go for a more modern Flieger-inspired design.
I get it, fascination for the product, the product from a certain timeframe. This doesn’t mean you agree with the situation the watch was used in or for.
I love your channel.
I'm happy to hear that, Anton, thank you.
According to the info provided by STOWA's chatbot, the crown position issue has been solved.
No need to apologize for the sins of the ancestors. We should judge every man or woman for their actions, not their fathers. Great content and topic.
Lots of say on this one outstanding video and that vest is awesome good job on that by the way if we looked at everything that was created out of War as something that we considered taboo we would literally have just about nothing it is ignorant and very naive to pick and choose what we put a for lack of a better word smudge on these watches were used by both sides so wearing an Omega for someone in Germany should be considered the same but your point is relative in that it's just a watch it looks good it works and good craftsmanship is to be celebrated outstanding video sir can't wait for the next one
No need to apologize/explian your self. This is about watches. That is it.
I bet they wear two watches. They obviously have too much time on their hands.
odd... I bought my Stowa Flieger few months ago and it has the first position deactivated. maybe Stowa heard feedback and implemented this on the newer made ones like mine? Anyway, great review. at the end of the day, it's a watch with historic design. Personally don't think too much about it. It's just a watch after all
I think so. I've acquired a Marine classic a few months ago and the first position is deactivated.
Nice vest!
Hey Tim! Nimmst du Hanhart auch mal mit rein? Ist ja auch aus dem Schwarzwald. Soweit ich informiert bin, wurden manche SS-Piloten damit ausgestattet... Weiters war Steve McQueen war ja ein megafan von dieser Firma. Daher denke ich dass es gerechtfertigt wäre!
Lg aus Salzburg,
Clemens
It's not a dress watch but it still looks good with your men's shirt.
god I LOVE this watch I want it
Excellent video Tim!
Very informative! I totally agree with your sensitive assessment of why we should still wear war time inspired and designed watches. Looking beyond watches and looking at something very familiar to us all, the BMW logo for example represents a spinning propeller (as they were a manufacturer of aircraft engines, up until the end of WWII) and if we are not happy with war time significant companies and their contributions, then we would really need to make some big changes in our lives to not be seen to support them. Everything must be kept in context and we must have a sensitive viewpoint about it. You explained this well!
As for the 2 position crown/stem setting of the ETA movement on the STOWA watch, when watches don't have a date indication, this really is a simple design fix for the movement manufacturer if they choose to do it. I'm not sure if you are familiar with RICOH watches and movements, but on some of their watches, they have a pushbutton date adjust, rather than via the crown, even when using the same movement calibre. When RICOH watches have this pushbutton, the crown only has 1 position and the way RICOH does this is they fit a different lever setting spring. This component, with one or two positions, is a simple design change and should then be manufactured and fitted according to the properties of the watch in question. I don't believe it's a cost issue. I think that the movement/watch manufacturer thinks that this won't bother us. But this is the kind of detail we look for, right?
Best Regards from the UK!!
PS - when will you start doing you watch pricing comparisons to also include Pounds Sterling?
A common misconception about the BMW logo en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW#Logo
Thank you for attempting to address the elephant in the room. I think it is a personal choice. As a younger man I owned Porsche and VW, and I wore Hugo Boss…but as I matured I made a decision not to support any companies with a nazi history. I have many German friends and I do not hold anything against this current generation but for me it is a choice not to support these brands. I am somewhat hypocritical though because I love flieger watches and still have an IWC but I would not buy a Stowa or any other brand with this connection. Thanks Tim your channel is great
Thank you!
It sounds so strange to hear people get angry at people who find Fliegeruhren bad. The whole German army is still using WW2 parade inspired uniforms and same tactics.
BMW and Volkswagen both made engines for the German military, and took to civilian automobiles after the war. That didn’t stop either company from using Brand Logos that today still portray WWII aircraft propellers, and no one complains about that!
I don’t see any moral dilemma here. It is an old company that once fulfilled orders for Luftwaffe pilots. The A-type dial is common in many modern watch companies, including Seiko, not just German brands.
Tim, you as a German, which brand would you most recommend to buy? Stowa or Laco? Which brand is closest to the watch used in WWII?
Simple answer: Both. They are very close quality wise and in regards of the design. I like the Stowa name more, but that's only my taste. I would concentrate first on the model and then on the brand. So A vs B dial etc. and then you can figure out which company delivers that model with the details you like most at the best price.
(But stay away from the Miyotas ;-)
Thank you for your comments, Tim. About the criticism about the watch and its history, I can say that according to those people's logic, no one should buy Hugo Boss, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, Volkswagen, Mont Blanc, Bayer and many other brands, but that's not what happens. Oh, come on! We're living in a different time and we are not WWII people. If you want to use a flieger, use it! Simple as that!
I will now start associating the Germans to one of the greats in watchmaking together with the Swiss and Japanese.
I would enjoy your vids on other subjects . I add that I read on another vblog I follow that too many subject matters confuses the youtube algorithm . In that case they separated their brewing vids from their jam vids on a new Chanel or something like that . Anyway it’s a thing . Best richard
Would you prefer the automatic or the manual winding one? The price is the same, actually the automatic is a bit cheaper, can it be that the manual one is higher grade than the automatic one?
Automatic although it's less correct if you consider the role model.