The militaristic language and emphasis on the divinely ordained aggressive temper of men actually stems more than anything from the ancient Greek warrior culture ethos. The Homeric myth of the warrior hero, cast in the virtues of violence. The recent impetus was, as mentioned, the Cold War dialectic, a psychological operation on multiple generations, if there ever was one. So public discourse and policy conflict becomes characterized purely by friend/enemy dynamics. They (DW and that circle) then legitimize it for the Christian audience by recasting the language of spiritual conflict found in the bible and layering that on top of their extrabiblical motivations and methods.
I listened via Apple podcasts, and I'm impressed with depth and clarity of your presentation. What an excellent choice to have Kristin Kobes Du Mez to situate Doug Wilson in this story. Her scholarship grounds the conversation, and should provide some bolstering against accusations of "sensationalism". I'm bracing myself for victims' testimonies...necessary, but so uncomfortable.
Overall a solid episode and a sensible starting point (looking at the historical background). I worry that DuMez’s comments pointed at the political right (and even the 2024 election) will be off putting to some, especially since DuMez has overtly married her faith with partisan left wing politics. I shared this episode with others and am interested in how they respond.
As of a few years ago, Du Mez couldn’t even give a biblical answer to the question of whether homosexuality is sinful: “Do I personally affirm “the church’s teaching that homosexuality is sinful?” Which church? My own church (local & denomination) is actively reexamining this issue in light of tradition, interpretation, history, & science. I’m participating, but as a historian, not a theologian.” (Kristin Kobes Du Mez, “Because a Twitter thread this long would be annoying,” November 27, 2021)
I love reading through the comments and playing "spot the kirker" XD They're easy to identify because they use "feminist" or "academic" as insults and downplay Wilson's toxin as "everyone has issues" and "he's just speaking truth." When the only people defending you are the ones holding the flavor-aid, it makes listening to outside voices even more appealing. Can't wait to see this show develop! #noquarternovembercameearlythisyear
Well I have been as conservative as they come, but this podcast helped me see why I found Doug Wilson so fascinating to me in the 90s and 2000s. We were new Christians that were desperately looking for a sense of belonging and he offered just enough of a picture of this glorious idea of medieval Christianity with everyone around a table enjoying fresh baked bread, wine, love and laughter to be so appealing! Too bad I didn’t recognize the ugliness that came with it as the fruits of so many fallen men in these circles bear witness that the core was somewhere still rotten. Unfortunately it has resulted in some very broken families and many who have left the church altogether for legitimate reasons.
Very interesting and informative. Doug Wilson's influence has created toxic family dynamics and justified so much violence and abuse. Looking forward to learning more. Thank you
Good episode. I became aware of Doug Wilson some years ago as a Christian school teacher and with family and friends part of the classical homeschool movement here in Canada. It was helpful to hear the history and the attraction of DW logically explained. I am amazed how pervasive this Moscow phenomenon has been, spreading through churches and schools and organizations like a cancerous growth. I do think it is generally unwise for believers to hitch themselves to a political side, as it tends to colour everything else they do, and leads to distrust that may or may not be warranted. I have the utmost respect for Dr. DuMez and understand why, but I do wish we were able to listen and learn as Christians without being internally swayed by our left or right political leanings. I suppose with the US election looming, that is impossible.
Gosh, I remember hearing this from John Piper way back then and cringing, not just about him but Driscoll and Rick Warren, and Rick Warren is pretty tame compared to the other two and his issue was different- in that he left out a lot of important stuff in his teaching, that would have prohibited pastors from being bullies like Driscoll and Wilson. His problem is what he didn’t say - the stuff he left out . The stuff that would curb our worst impulses as Christian leaders and church members who enabled them. In fact Rick Warren also promoted such materials written by some of his acolytes that encouraged pastors to really lay down the law on people who raised concerns so they all kind of worked together toward a very ungodly end.
Something else that’s weird is I remember reading a really good critique by Doug Wilson of the twilight books and it really seems to contradict a lot of the other stuff he ended up teaching about sexuality. At least in my recollection, it’s been a long time. And it was a multi part critique basically chapter by chapter as he went through the book.
As a student of and sometimes unwilling participant in American Evangelicalism for the last half century, I'm thrilled that Dr. Kobes-DuMez has done her homework! She gets it. I've never heard someone explain so accurately and cogently the history of this iteration of the Religious Right. Well done!
Critiquing Christian Nationalism with militant feminism and theological liberalism is not a wise strategy, it will only encourage the growth of Christian Nationalism.
I agree. The Bible tears down patriarchism as an argument that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. And we must use the sword of the Spirit for this good work.
To be fair, while perhaps Wilson has become more extreme over time, the Christian left (a group to which DuMez belongs) has inarguably become more extreme as well -- so many examples of this. The right tends to stay put - we believe in the Bible, and while interpretations differ, the text itself does not change.
It’s naive (and false) to believe that either side has remained stagnant over the decades. Both have morphed/evolved over time (which is always inevitable). DuMez’s politics made me question the wisdom of having her as the first guest, but taking aside her politics, was there anything in particular that was unfair or inaccurate?
@@jahnvantuttlesma8215 He didn’t say there was anything unfair or inaccurate about it. He simply correctly stated that the Christian left has become more extreme. If future episodes take a similar politically left-leaning and liberal-Christian stance, this podcast will likely not reach their intended audience, if they are aiming for a broad audience. The political and Christian left is not the moderate middle they seem to think they are; they are left of center,sometimes far left of center.
@@Michelle.M.G I don't necessarily disagree with this (though to say that this group on the whole is left of center isn't really fair. It's a pretty diverse group with many differing perspectives. Some future guests will be on the right, and host himself is definitely right wing from my understanding). I'm just interested in seeing how right leaning people will respond if they listen with an open mind.
Remember, John Piper is himself disqualified from ministry. He has a history of being spiritually abusive, and has an unbelieving son. Titus 1:5-6 says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, HAVING CHILDREN WHO BELIEVE, not accused of dissipation or rebellion." (Titus 1:5-6, NASB95; emphasis mine)
40 minutes in: Well, I’m sure this podcast will appeal to political liberals and to liberal Christians. As long as that’s the primary intended audience, they’re off to a great start! 😂 Bonus point if they were hoping to sound exactly like an NPR interview. This is a classic example of leftists thinking they are somehow the moderate middle, rather than the leftists and liberals they are. Btw, I’m no Doug Wilson fan. If future episodes are like this one, you’ll be doing nothing more than preaching to your own choir, and honestly having no real impact.
I more or less had similar concerns, but when listening objectively, was there anything specificity that you thought was unfair or inaccurate? It’s hard for anyone to put aside their own baggage or to listen with an open mind if they are aware of DuMez’s background, but overall I thought that it was reasonable. Thoughts?
The podcast advertised that it is not sticking with one ideology or tradition for the sources of input. You will no doubt get similar criticisms coming in from a future guest who is not sympathetic with Du Mez's own positions. In general, if you only choose perspectives and insights from those you assume to be a comprehensively acceptable source of aligned political ideology, you are potentially more at risk of bringing in uncritiqued, un-examined bad ideas. This is currently what is happening with the neo-integralist, third positionist, New Christendom / Christian Nationalist ideological infiltration of contemporary conservatism. The everyday conservative would NOT be on board with ultimate goals of the theocratic worlds of DW and all the rest, but they are infiltrating by emphasizing the politically aligned issues and concerns, and near term solutions that feed into the existing sentiments. As such, I think folks should have no problem examining the critiques from the left. You simply need to do your own due diligence and understand the philosophical underpinnings of what kind of leftism they are speaking from, if every baby should be thrown out with the bathwater, or if there is despite it all some outsider insight to learn from. But that is happening very rarely. The politically and socially engaged public has been psychologically primed to frame everything in friend/enemy dialectics.
I don't have time to go back and find examples for you. I just heard a lot of left leaning conclusions that were negatively said against those with more conservative beliefs and actions but without any biblical proof that the negative comments were biblical themselves. I heard rhetoric without proof.
Thanks for your fair examination of Grifter Doug. Anyone who takes on the title of "Pastor" stands in direct defiance of Jesus' command in Matthew 23:8-12. Jesus was crystal clear: "Do not be called Rabbi," "Do not call anyone on earth your father," and "Do not be called leaders," because we are all brothers and sisters under one Teacher, Christ Himself. Yet, by claiming the title "Pastor," individuals elevate themselves above others in the very hierarchy Jesus condemned. This title is not a badge of honor but a mark of disobedience and pride. True followers of Christ would heed His words and forsake any titles that divide the Body, rather than honoring themselves with a title Christ explicitly rebuked.
This podcast is important and has good subject material, but fails to rise to the level of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. It feels more like a lecture at a university at this point and it would be nice to see future episodes take on a more narrative structure to be more interesting to those who aren't already heavily invested in the subject or have fallen prey to Wilson.
1. I think Doug Wilson is bad news. 2. I think MUCH of modern feminism is bad news. 3. I think this particular interview painted with a unfair brush toward Christian conservatives and specifically only punched Right.
The Sons showed that they are similar to Nadab, or Abihu and not like Phinehas. Please, let's kick off the hate with Kobes DuMez who holds that homosexuality isn't sinful and that the Bible is wrong on that subject. Let's use someone who doesn't believe that abortion is wrong to tell us how to interpret America today.
@@παρεπίδημος Nope. Just pointing out that those who don't follow the basics of the Bible really don't carry much weight. Especially when discussing scripture and how it applies in America today. Over the years, preachers bending scripture to flow with various secular winds blowing in America are the primary reason we are in such a turmoil today. Did Nadab and Abihu bend scripture? Yes.
She’s wrong. Doug is admired and influential because he leads. Leadership is removing obstacles. If transgendering kids is an obstacle to having an effective nation in 15 years, then Doug is the man to follow and not the ponytail capri wearing worship leadership. Doug has his issues. Everyone has their own issues.
Disgusting, slanderous podcast. Did not once site any scripture to back up her point. When in doubt, “ad hominem.” I will listen to her commendation and NOT listen to her. What a joke.
Hey friend, I would have felt the same as you when my children were young and I was desperate for a playbook that would assure they turned out right. The Doug Wilson approach that I took with my children, backfired. My children, who are in their thirties now, are still recovering from the fallout. It's only by the massive grace of God that I have a good relationship with them and that they love Jesus. Peace.
Thanks for this podcast. Wilso has had a noxious impact on the evangelical and reformed world for way too long
The militaristic language and emphasis on the divinely ordained aggressive temper of men actually stems more than anything from the ancient Greek warrior culture ethos. The Homeric myth of the warrior hero, cast in the virtues of violence. The recent impetus was, as mentioned, the Cold War dialectic, a psychological operation on multiple generations, if there ever was one.
So public discourse and policy conflict becomes characterized purely by friend/enemy dynamics. They (DW and that circle) then legitimize it for the Christian audience by recasting the language of spiritual conflict found in the bible and layering that on top of their extrabiblical motivations and methods.
Very well articulated.
Apparently you've never read the Old Testament
My family began following his teachings.
What I've seen is very disturbing.
I'm a very conservative Christian btw
A good tree bears good fruit. An evil tree bears evil fruit.
I listened via Apple podcasts, and I'm impressed with depth and clarity of your presentation. What an excellent choice to have Kristin Kobes Du Mez to situate Doug Wilson in this story. Her scholarship grounds the conversation, and should provide some bolstering against accusations of "sensationalism". I'm bracing myself for victims' testimonies...necessary, but so uncomfortable.
Thanks for this podcast. Wilson is a noxious influence on the church
Overall a solid episode and a sensible starting point (looking at the historical background). I worry that DuMez’s comments pointed at the political right (and even the 2024 election) will be off putting to some, especially since DuMez has overtly married her faith with partisan left wing politics. I shared this episode with others and am interested in how they respond.
Important observation about the isolation that so many feel. Any cult, mainstream or fringe, is going to hold powerful attraction in this environment.
As of a few years ago, Du Mez couldn’t even give a biblical answer to the question of whether homosexuality is sinful:
“Do I personally affirm “the church’s teaching that homosexuality is sinful?” Which church? My own church (local & denomination) is actively reexamining this issue in light of tradition, interpretation, history, & science. I’m participating, but as a historian, not a theologian.”
(Kristin Kobes Du Mez, “Because a Twitter thread this long would be annoying,” November 27, 2021)
I love reading through the comments and playing "spot the kirker" XD They're easy to identify because they use "feminist" or "academic" as insults and downplay Wilson's toxin as "everyone has issues" and "he's just speaking truth." When the only people defending you are the ones holding the flavor-aid, it makes listening to outside voices even more appealing. Can't wait to see this show develop! #noquarternovembercameearlythisyear
Well I have been as conservative as they come, but this podcast helped me see why I found Doug Wilson so fascinating to me in the 90s and 2000s. We were new Christians that were desperately looking for a sense of belonging and he offered just enough of a picture of this glorious idea of medieval Christianity with everyone around a table enjoying fresh baked bread, wine, love and laughter to be so appealing! Too bad I didn’t recognize the ugliness that came with it as the fruits of so many fallen men in these circles bear witness that the core was somewhere still rotten. Unfortunately it has resulted in some very broken families and many who have left the church altogether for legitimate reasons.
Very interesting and informative. Doug Wilson's influence has created toxic family dynamics and justified so much violence and abuse. Looking
forward to learning more. Thank you
Good episode. I became aware of Doug Wilson some years ago as a Christian school teacher and with family and friends part of the classical homeschool movement here in Canada. It was helpful to hear the history and the attraction of DW logically explained. I am amazed how pervasive this Moscow phenomenon has been, spreading through churches and schools and organizations like a cancerous growth.
I do think it is generally unwise for believers to hitch themselves to a political side, as it tends to colour everything else they do, and leads to distrust that may or may not be warranted. I have the utmost respect for Dr. DuMez and understand why, but I do wish we were able to listen and learn as Christians without being internally swayed by our left or right political leanings. I suppose with the US election looming, that is impossible.
Well said !
Gosh, I remember hearing this from John Piper way back then and cringing, not just about him but Driscoll and Rick Warren, and Rick Warren is pretty tame compared to the other two and his issue was different- in that he left out a lot of important stuff in his teaching, that would have prohibited pastors from being bullies like Driscoll and Wilson. His problem is what he didn’t say - the stuff he left out . The stuff that would curb our worst impulses as Christian leaders and church members who enabled them. In fact Rick Warren also promoted such materials written by some of his acolytes that encouraged pastors to really lay down the law on people who raised concerns so they all kind of worked together toward a very ungodly end.
Something else that’s weird is I remember reading a really good critique by Doug Wilson of the twilight books and it really seems to contradict a lot of the other stuff he ended up teaching about sexuality. At least in my recollection, it’s been a long time. And it was a multi part critique basically chapter by chapter as he went through the book.
As a student of and sometimes unwilling participant in American Evangelicalism for the last half century, I'm thrilled that Dr. Kobes-DuMez has done her homework! She gets it. I've never heard someone explain so accurately and cogently the history of this iteration of the Religious Right. Well done!
Critiquing Christian Nationalism with militant feminism and theological liberalism is not a wise strategy, it will only encourage the growth of Christian Nationalism.
I agree. The Bible tears down patriarchism as an argument that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. And we must use the sword of the Spirit for this good work.
To be fair, while perhaps Wilson has become more extreme over time, the Christian left (a group to which DuMez belongs) has inarguably become more extreme as well -- so many examples of this. The right tends to stay put - we believe in the Bible, and while interpretations differ, the text itself does not change.
It’s naive (and false) to believe that either side has remained stagnant over the decades. Both have morphed/evolved over time (which is always inevitable). DuMez’s politics made me question the wisdom of having her as the first guest, but taking aside her politics, was there anything in particular that was unfair or inaccurate?
@@jahnvantuttlesma8215 He didn’t say there was anything unfair or inaccurate about it. He simply correctly stated that the Christian left has become more extreme. If future episodes take a similar politically left-leaning and liberal-Christian stance, this podcast will likely not reach their intended audience, if they are aiming for a broad audience. The political and Christian left is not the moderate middle they seem to think they are; they are left of center,sometimes far left of center.
@@Michelle.M.G I don't necessarily disagree with this (though to say that this group on the whole is left of center isn't really fair. It's a pretty diverse group with many differing perspectives. Some future guests will be on the right, and host himself is definitely right wing from my understanding). I'm just interested in seeing how right leaning people will respond if they listen with an open mind.
Wilson's ideology is patently false and has more akin to Mormons in 1870 than it does with Christianity (either traditional or otherwise).
Yes the left making 'cultist' declarations these days is rich.
Excellent podcast. I see so many similarities between the New Apostolic Reformation and Doug Wilson's Christian Nationalism.
So ready for this!
✅ very good interview!!!
Remember, John Piper is himself disqualified from ministry. He has a history of being spiritually abusive, and has an unbelieving son. Titus 1:5-6 says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, HAVING CHILDREN WHO BELIEVE, not accused of dissipation or rebellion." (Titus 1:5-6, NASB95; emphasis mine)
He has an adult child who turned away from the faith. That’s clearly not what Paul was writing about.
And what evidence do you have to show he “has a history of being spiritually abusive”? That’s the first time I ever heard such an accusation.
Such a fabulous intro!
Thorough explanation of the history of evangelicalism. Thank you Dr. Kobes-DuMas.
40 minutes in: Well, I’m sure this podcast will appeal to political liberals and to liberal Christians. As long as that’s the primary intended audience, they’re off to a great start! 😂 Bonus point if they were hoping to sound exactly like an NPR interview. This is a classic example of leftists thinking they are somehow the moderate middle, rather than the leftists and liberals they are. Btw, I’m no Doug Wilson fan. If future episodes are like this one, you’ll be doing nothing more than preaching to your own choir, and honestly having no real impact.
I more or less had similar concerns, but when listening objectively, was there anything specificity that you thought was unfair or inaccurate? It’s hard for anyone to put aside their own baggage or to listen with an open mind if they are aware of DuMez’s background, but overall I thought that it was reasonable. Thoughts?
The podcast advertised that it is not sticking with one ideology or tradition for the sources of input. You will no doubt get similar criticisms coming in from a future guest who is not sympathetic with Du Mez's own positions.
In general, if you only choose perspectives and insights from those you assume to be a comprehensively acceptable source of aligned political ideology, you are potentially more at risk of bringing in uncritiqued, un-examined bad ideas. This is currently what is happening with the neo-integralist, third positionist, New Christendom / Christian Nationalist ideological infiltration of contemporary conservatism. The everyday conservative would NOT be on board with ultimate goals of the theocratic worlds of DW and all the rest, but they are infiltrating by emphasizing the politically aligned issues and concerns, and near term solutions that feed into the existing sentiments.
As such, I think folks should have no problem examining the critiques from the left. You simply need to do your own due diligence and understand the philosophical underpinnings of what kind of leftism they are speaking from, if every baby should be thrown out with the bathwater, or if there is despite it all some outsider insight to learn from.
But that is happening very rarely. The politically and socially engaged public has been psychologically primed to frame everything in friend/enemy dialectics.
I am not a DW fan. But listening to this I hear a lot of inflammatory left leaning rhetoric instead of dealing with real issues.
@@Elcee-c7tcan you be specific?
I don't have time to go back and find examples for you. I just heard a lot of left leaning conclusions that were negatively said against those with more conservative beliefs and actions but without any biblical proof that the negative comments were biblical themselves. I heard rhetoric without proof.
Thanks for your fair examination of Grifter Doug. Anyone who takes on the title of "Pastor" stands in direct defiance of Jesus' command in Matthew 23:8-12. Jesus was crystal clear: "Do not be called Rabbi," "Do not call anyone on earth your father," and "Do not be called leaders," because we are all brothers and sisters under one Teacher, Christ Himself. Yet, by claiming the title "Pastor," individuals elevate themselves above others in the very hierarchy Jesus condemned. This title is not a badge of honor but a mark of disobedience and pride. True followers of Christ would heed His words and forsake any titles that divide the Body, rather than honoring themselves with a title Christ explicitly rebuked.
This podcast is important and has good subject material, but fails to rise to the level of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. It feels more like a lecture at a university at this point and it would be nice to see future episodes take on a more narrative structure to be more interesting to those who aren't already heavily invested in the subject or have fallen prey to Wilson.
1. I think Doug Wilson is bad news.
2. I think MUCH of modern feminism is bad news.
3. I think this particular interview painted with a unfair brush toward Christian conservatives and specifically only punched Right.
Calvin has a gender studies course? That’s disappointing
This is an attack on Doug Wilson without any Biblical arguments as to why he is wrong and one should not follow him.
The Sons showed that they are similar to Nadab, or Abihu and not like Phinehas. Please, let's kick off the hate with Kobes DuMez who holds that homosexuality isn't sinful and that the Bible is wrong on that subject. Let's use someone who doesn't believe that abortion is wrong to tell us how to interpret America today.
Ahh, the classic appeal to purity as a way to dismiss relevant criticisms. Good job!
@@παρεπίδημος Nope. Just pointing out that those who don't follow the basics of the Bible really don't carry much weight. Especially when discussing scripture and how it applies in America today.
Over the years, preachers bending scripture to flow with various secular winds blowing in America are the primary reason we are in such a turmoil today.
Did Nadab and Abihu bend scripture? Yes.
@@dave1724 another fine example of the strawman fallacy! Here’s your bonus points! You are really on a roll! Keep it up!
Excellent!!
Very good!! Thank you!
She’s wrong. Doug is admired and influential because he leads. Leadership is removing obstacles. If transgendering kids is an obstacle to having an effective nation in 15 years, then Doug is the man to follow and not the ponytail capri wearing worship leadership.
Doug has his issues. Everyone has their own issues.
who's the evangellyfish here? you've got a feminist on making lib talking points w pseudo-academic pretense.
You obviously don't know top quality historical scholars.
Disgusting, slanderous podcast. Did not once site any scripture to back up her point. When in doubt, “ad hominem.” I will listen to her commendation and NOT listen to her. What a joke.
Hey friend, I would have felt the same as you when my children were young and I was desperate for a playbook that would assure they turned out right. The Doug Wilson approach that I took with my children, backfired. My children, who are in their thirties now, are still recovering from the fallout. It's only by the massive grace of God that I have a good relationship with them and that they love Jesus. Peace.
@@ummiriamI don't know anything about the people she's talking about. But she's basically saying what the Bible says is extreme.
Agree, tell me why he's wrong, USE THE BIBLE.