Thank you so much. I have been utterly fascinated by every single thing mentioned. Top of the list: a culture which, like the Cretans, did not depict warfare.
and probably like Cretans had something like "mobile walls" - ships/armies aka military treaties; the sheer number could be a deterrent; but I don't agree with the interpretation that the walls are not for used (also) for defense.
Perfect pronunciations of every single Indic name by Dr Jonathan. Just a small cherry on the top of this wonderfully thorough presentation. Thank you so much for making this available on UA-cam.
Great video. Thank you for your talk on such a thorough research on an impossible problem of history. I live in Islamabad and sometimes I feel I time travel to the Indus cities of the past.
Of course, the video is very informative and you go into the reasons why you reach certain conclusions -- so thank you for that. But in addition, may I say that your pronunciation of cuontemporary indo/pak terms is on point!
The area from Elam, along the coast of Baluchistan and on to Makran and on to Sindh on one route and another route from Baluchistan to Sindh over land are dotted with settlements, indicating the land was not dry like now but was livable until rendered unlivable. The general trend of migration from Ethiopia and ending at Sumeria went on to the fertile lands of Gujrat, where The Yadava tribe of Krishna preached the Sanatan religion and Dwarka as the nerve center of a vast shipping network with ships sailing to Oman up to Ur or Uruk. The Sumerian legend of Sindbad the sailor is a story of a sailor who took goods fron India o Sumeria.
A great series of videos, the result of years of research, eloquently explained, I hope there are more as this was all new information to me, thanks for uploading
Ah, great second post! Answering my questions from the Writing lecture post! What is needed now to advance further understanding? Money, diplomacy, trained archaeologists???
Studying the occupational practices of lower castes - fishermen, herdsmen, agriculturists and construction workers, itinerant traders in the area - in both Pakistan and India.
When you mentioned gates only wide enough for ONE cart, I could almost HEAR a teamster swear when something spooked his beastie and it flipped its biscuits, went "Rodeo" mode, and snapped the yoke poles😂! As someone that has hauled things, and worked with high strung flight animals, I would bet it happened QUITE a bit, in those markets with all the hustle bustle! And the picture I got was an older gentleman, that had been "trucking" longer than most of the younger dudes in his caravan had been alive!
Fantastic! Most comprehensive and succinct summary of a lot of archeological, historical and cultural research, supported by Carbon Dating and DNA studies, relating to Indus Valley and Harappan civilisations! Is it possible to share link to your original research document? Thanks in anticipation.
Hello Dr Jonathan. First of all thank you so much for this detailed lecture and insights related to the Indus Civilization Second, I have a question to ask. You focused on Mohenjo daro, Harappa, Lakhanjodaro, Dolavira and also mentions Lothal and Kalibangan. Obviously you must have an entire overview regarding the extent of this beautiful civilisation. My question is about the government structure. Is it centralised? Or intergovernmental? Of local to cantral. There are lots of similarities to the sites infrastructure developments as in Dolavira, Harappa and Mohenjo daro. What's your take on that?
Indus people were originally from ancient Tami trading groups. When sea trade had not developed well and safe, the land routes only available. So Sindhus region had been selected a convenient location to trade with western developed countries like Sumerian etc. So the ancient Tamil traders had established a trade centre in Sindhus region. Wherever they settled they used to build convenient and comfortable trading centres and made provisions for visiting traders and visitors. Of course they had their dwelling houses built with elaborate provisions and comforts. As they lived in groups they had their leaders and respected them. Of course when the traders settled there came their helpers supporters, dependents artisans and other technicians to earn their living.
They had nothing to do with later intruded Aryans of Central Asia. Due to many reasons they migrated to more favourable trading locations. Of course the thugs like uncultured intruded people and their savage like habits and behaviours could have been one of the reasons. Being naturally peace loving and highly cultured groups, they did not prefer to fight against and drive them out.
Many things in Bhuddism/ Jainism are from Indus-Valley civilization. Indus people are intelligent and sound minded people. Further studies will definitely prove 100% of all these things
No religion in the world developed independently without importing ideas from other cultures. Buddhism and jainism developed at least 1500 years after fall of IVC, so have little to do with with IVC civilization. Rigvedic culture developed just after fall of IVC, infact developed side by side with 'Cementry H Culture' also had a lot of interaction with 'Jhukar Culture' and 'Rangpur Culture'. I think and everyone who is interested in history can easily say that Rigvedic culture and religion is mix of IE and IVC cultures and religions. Shramana ideas and shad-darshan ideas didn't emerged from IVC but emerged during second phase of urbanization around 500 BC. as 100s of years old tribal ideas were not relevant in urban cultures. Shramana movement was like Renaissance of Vedic culture. Anything apart from that is just political or religious propaganda. Shramana happened in two phases paccekabuddha and savaka phases. These traditions drew upon already established Brahmanical concepts to communicate their own distinct doctrines.
@@dheera8889 partly correct but shramana tradition is may not be the Renaissance of vedic culture, it is against vedic tradition. Idols from IVC, the way of dressed and bangled are still followed in followed in India, specially Southern part...like saree, bangles etc.... if it is from vedic tradition, Zorastrians could have followed tha same as it's tradition is near like Rigveda.
@@kikum3067 sharmana movement has nothing to do with South India. Its center was Bihar and Eastern UP (greater magdha). It was based on brahmanic ideas, either in support of some of its concepts or to oppose them. some concepts expended and some reduced. That's it. Time difference within IVC fall and shramana movement is 1500 years, that's enough time not to survive ideas in pre historical times. Second, who the hell told you that bangles are restricted to South. The way bangles are being weared in gujarat rajasthan and sindh is identical to IVC style, also in upper arms. South Indian bangles is identical to ganga valley, not Indus valley. South Indian culture is brahmnic, not sharmana. Shramana is against meat eating, and pro Ahimsha. South India is/was very much meat eating. Gujarat, punjab, rajasthan, haryana, and Western UP is very much vegetarian society. This area was related to IVC directly.
@@dheera8889 brahmins are definitely after many years of IVC. Because in vedas, medieval literature never mentioned about IVC and very little told about shramana tradition. British or European archeologists discovered IVC not any of vedic people. Priests changed from vedic to shramana...is very evident by literature and evidence based archeological proof.
@@kikum3067 I never said brahmins, there was no brahmin caste in Vedic era as it was a tribal socity, and in a tribal society there is no need for labour distribution, so no varna system.. an urban society can't survive without labour distribution so brahmin as a caste is late invention.. I said brahmnic ideas which means pre puranic and after Vedic philosophies of Hinduism like Vedanta, Nyaya, Samkhya, Mimansa, Vaisheshika, and yoga etc in their proto form. Shramana movement is based on already established brahmnic ideas, either to oppose some ideas or to support some ideas. It happened in magdha in Bihar. These ideas had hardly anything to do in Bihar, with an already 1500 ago dead civilization of Punjab. It was a movement of social revival and rethinking of ancient religion, new ideas emerged with new political system. It was a time of social transformation, with the rise of powerful centralised states from tribal societies. Vedas didn't say anything about IVC because there were no IVC in Vedic era, they didn't encounter with IVC but Cementery H. Sharmana movement was way later than Vedas, how could they mention about future movements. But there's enough about sharmana in later literature. Neither Sharmana nor brahmnic philosophies were homogeneous in nature. Shramanas competing with other sharmanas as well as brahmanic philosophies were competing with other brahmanic schools of thoughts. For example lokayata never agreed with buddhists in sharmanas.. same as mimansa never agreed with vaisheshika.. in short it was a new era with new political system so emergence of new ideas, in Bihar. Nothing to do with 1000s of year old dead civilization of Punjab and gujarat.
Swastika is a vedic symbol of peace...Later harapan can be easily seen as development of vedic society in India valley civilization..Fire alters were also found
57:30 several different shapes (3) of what the professor calls “cooking areas” could be actually three types of ritual fire pits as explained in Brahmanas. Professor suggests they are for different types of cuisines - which is not convincing. In India/Pakistan they don’t have different cooking areas for different types of cuisines in a house. The sacrifice scene seen at 1:15:45 with a person in asana pose looking over can be a animal sacrifice scene of a Gomruga (typically seen as unicorn in profile).
Greetings Dr. Kenoyer. At 1:17 you speak of the connection between the Indus seal and yoga. Could you please elaborate? Would it not e more appropriate to connect it with asana than yoga?
The seals appear to show lotus seated figures, an asana normally associated with meditation & pranayama. That is a resting position rather than a moving or stress or balance position. All of this is yoga, however b
When one examines genetic material, what would be sample size. Can all the remains give indication of diet growth patterns, occupation and cause of death.
This Professor really does excellent presentations with superior clarity and on "great subjects"! (... and I'm quite an Academic Snob! lol 😉) I prefer Authentic Academic Minds, those that adhere to the "Standards of Science and Research", rather than the "Mainstream Academics whom hold the 19th Century Darwinian Theory Paradigm" above the "Standards of Science and Research", *"it is an ethical subject, one forcing their peers to support that paradigm, or risk reputation, tenyor, and career."* I can't abide the "Fraternal Religious Like Behavior" that compromises the academic fields and teaches a public a fiction as History/Science. It is wise to get neck deep in that one accuses to be "sudo-", to fully understand the subject, artifacts, fossils, Oral and Written Histories + all while "practicing this Standards of Science and Research", which forbids holding a Theory, opinion, belief, or idea, that can prevent the greater facts from emerging. The Science Mind allows for all possibilities, can entertain an idea they may not agree with, and is is in control of the Ego-Mind with Conscious Thoughts and Higher-Minded Standards, this is where Wisdom resides. This subject shall gain a greater harmony in this decade, as the Truths will emerge and the young minds will demand the hard answers. *It will benefit the greater Collective and be a refreshing experience of feeling true freedoms, for the Students and the Professionals.* Best Wellbeing to all ...
Darwinian? Darwin explained evolution over massive time frames and has nothing to do with history. Humans evolved long before the first cities 200 thousand years ago. You seem more confused by religious dogma than an academic snob
@@jeffreypierce1440bs, Indian art has existed independently for thousands of years, there's no 'greek' influence, stop trying to claim foreign civilisations
Yes and always has been when the romans asked the Greeks about India they told them the ships arrive in the monsoon season on the east cost of Africa. The Greeks also told the Romans that the "Nubians were the most handsome men on earth".
I think we have it wrong in reference to the stark divide we think about when discussing hunters vs agriculturalists. As long as people have encountered cities they move to join. More people = more jobs = more food = more better. Humans stuck to their “tribes” in areas where violence among clans/tribes that prevented the aggregation of people into towns/cities was common. Otherwise if given a choice people are going to choose to live in more densely populated areas because those places are where lightning was commonly caught in bottles
At 3000 bce what would be astronomical events with respect to closest stellar bodies i.e moon and sun. Not just major events like eclipses, but magnetic fields at poles. What would be the tides, currents and streams, prepostulating through climate model profiles.
Goats and sheep are in the wild to be found in mountainous regions ...so logically they have been domesticated in Luristan -Kurdistan/Khordestan Zagros Mountains...it only arrived in the Indus Valley when pastoralists and first farmers immigrated from the Zagros Mountains there...
Wrong Past distribution is so different from today's distribution especially regarding sheep Wild sheep specimens were found from Mehrgarh, Narusho(during early harappan era) and even at Afghanistan at an earlier date Even now wild sheeps(mouflon) are found nearby "eastern" Iran where they share territory with urial so no need to look for zagros Most importantly the exact wild ancestor of domestic sheep is not identified until now We do have wild goat in IVC region Gradual reduction in size if sheep is clearly noticed during aceramic phase which means domestic sheep evolving from "wild" ancestors and that proves local domestication process Recently a bio archive report stated Urial, and argali also contributed very little amount of ancestry to sheeps Both of them inhabit South and Central Asia So local domestication is every way possible There are many evidence I can't list all
Goats do well in the dry tropics - no mountains required. And Goats are not monolithic - some goats are well selected for mountainous terrain and others do well in semidesert scrub.
Why reference indigenous development going back 2 million years (8:15)?! What?! That is, the Homo erectus period has NOTHING to do with modern Homo sapiens expanding out of Africa sometime after 70,000 years ago and eventually giving rise to the Indus Valley Civilization. There may have been "continuous occupation" (Kenoyer's words), but that does not mean it's the same people or culture. The so-called "continuous occupation" was not by the same reproductive population or cultural tradition. That flippant claim of "two million years ago" inexcusably ignores later population migrations that all regions of the Old World experienced. It also disregards a huge amount of linguistic findings. And it also contradicts what he says in his statements that immediately follow about how the Indus area was linked to the Gulf, Mesopotamia, and the surrounding areas of the Indus, including the Deccan. What's going on here? Is he just "winging it", not having prepared a script for this presentation?? Was he tired, and not up to the task at hand? I don't know. I'm disappointed because I admire what Kenoyer has done archaeologically to better understand this important civilization. Now, Kenoyer greatly improves the empirical presentation after this point. So, let's say the factually important point is that the peoples whose various local cultures combined to create (unintentionally in the beginning) the Indus Valley Civilization did so by making use of regional ecological resources to produce a surplus of food crops that led to a complex urbanized culture. Kenoyer even says this at 14:00. That is, it was not Mesopotamians (or some other urbanized area) that came in with their crops and social organization and took over, but that local populations, initially using regional plants and resources and somewhat later utilizing imported crops, integrated their cultural knowledge to develop the Indus Valley Civilization. The part of the presentation (29:10) that deals with brick size and wall repair is very interesting, especially concerning why certain brick sizes were chosen (34:20). As a scale for semi-standardized linear measurements, "...the Indus people used body measurements" (38:22), including distance between thumb and forefinger, as well as what was convenient for the average-sized hands and arms. And the functional uses of all these bricks was to control access to the city (gateways), for household construction, streets, flood control, ritual structures, and for very important waste-water drainage purposes. Note the distinction between mud brick and fire brick. A fascinating part (42:50) of this presentation is about the removal at Harappa and other major sites of fired bricks ("brick-robbed") for modern uses, leaving the "voids" to excavate - which impacts how we interpret construction. Wow. Note: "Mohenjo-daro has not been brick-robbed" (44:15). Yes! The complexity of excavating and interpreting sites modified through time is given at 44:39. Kenoyer's correction of Wheeler's interpretation (45:16) is important for archaeological methods at other complex sites.
"Why reference indigenous development going back 2 million years (8:15)?! What?!" Yes of course, FYI: Story of Ancient India: From the Deep South to North | Dr. Raj Vedam:: ua-cam.com/video/uSX4-DKUpn0/v-deo.html
Great field work, but with a lack of understanding of social and economic relations, urbanism, and architecture. The mentioned context void has led to an unguided and personal interpretation of the physical evidence which make them imaginary.
1. Any archeological evidence for vaidic period? Vedas were written during this period? 2. Who coined the word HINDU? When? 3. Any proof for Asoka's baisnees? 4. When ajivakas, charvakas, Jain, Buddhist all telling atheism,,where was brahminism, a theism? Was brahminism was parallel to these? No there was nothing like brahminism or Hinduism at any Era. Read history again. 5. Oral tradition?? Gurukul??? Sanskrit?? How old is Sanskrit?? What is the proof of Sanskrit's encientness? Rigved?? When?? Talk with proof.
@riddunyra4373 and Christianity was and is a cult that should have been wiped out, root and branch before it gained a foothold. Don't think I didn't see that shitty pun putting down a belief system that makes the Abrahamic beliefs look like toddlers, with attendant toddler logic
Silence silence silence guys. I quench the thirst of you all. IVC is Buddhist civilization. There were 28 buddhas. 1st was in IVC. Stupa in Mohenjodaro is not of Ad but of 2000 Bc. Rest curiosity i will solve in replies.
i never understood why the ppl talking about other civilizations the most, are the ones who dont have any ruins in their own lands. i.e. christians. christians love talking writing and spreading their opinions on mass media. they also love fabricating stories about their own european pagan past. greek, roman and nordic "mythology", egyptian and south american history. i have lived my whole life in a european country but never held a book in my hands written in runen script. it was all replaced by jesus and roman culture. they have zero clue who they were 2000 years ago. then they come and jump on other ppls history. not sure if i like this.
They STOLE other people's history, more like. Wiped it out, erased it, by either coercion or conquest. Their body count, JUST from the Crusades, gives them an obscene amount to answer for. Let alone the various Inquisitions, the witch burnings, etc. They co opt or steal what they can't outright destroy. No REAL culture of their own, and the dual arts of critical thinking and logic, so VERY emphasized in the Classical period, take a HARD back seat to zealotry and fundieism. And FORGET about science. They either have NO concept of it, or they pick, choose, and twist what they can of it for their own benefit.
The Indus Valley was comprehensively. Evacuated over a short period. The inhabitants were faced with a very serious catastrophe at short notice. An imminent invasion by barbaric horsemen from the Russian Steppes, active in the Indus area at the time. The evacuation involved 5 million people in over 100 cities spread over 1500kms. We can assume that the evacuation was successful because no human remains to prove the attack have have been found till date. The migrating inhabitants scattered East and South and settled different parts of India The Indus Valley descendants make up 85 percent of the Indian population today. The abandoned Indus Valley remained vacated and desolate for 400 years until European. and Central Asian migrants settled the area bringing new language, religion and culture etc with them. The Vedic Civilization. The imminent invasion never happened because the inhabitants of the Indus Valued Life over wealth.
The people of the Indus valley would not invest in a standing Army but chose the more safer and wiser option of EVACUATION. They had typically planned the operation successfully. They valued Life over Wealth and Prosperity.
@@GP-uq5qz Homo sapiens sapiens settled the globe less than 200'ooo years ago. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human#History The idea that the shape of urban civilsation was somehow determined by earlier homo erectus, Neanderthal etc seems pretty nuts to me.
Posi Troll, I think all he's saying (8:30) is the Indus Valley has seen hominids foraging in the area for some 2 million years and has a long history of habitation by hominids. Food production (agriculture) seems to have started around 7000 BC.
@@GP-uq5qz He says that some of the particularities of the indus valley urban civilisation go back to influences from 2 million years ago. That makes very little sense to me, given that homo erectus had no towns, and very little culture that homo sapiens sapiens could have picked up on when it arrived in India 75000 years ago. But Im open to be shown evidence to the contrary ...
Posi Troll I agree, any signs of urbanization before, say, 10,000 BC would be shocking indeed. Small settlements likely started around 8000 BC and urbanization likely after 5000 BC. Also any claim that any culture of hominids that may have lived and foraged in Indus Valley continued after modern Homo sapiens arrived in Indus Valley would be preposterous. However I didn't think he made such claims. May be I missed it. I thought he was merely mentioning the area was habited by (various) hominids going way back...
The indus valley civilization was a pre vedic/ hindu civilization. There are many evidence like this video mantion. why you don't make this connection.
Swastikas, Yogic sculptures, Shiv Lings and Fire altars were found. There are also theories suggesting Indus Script could be related Brahmi script and the language on the seals was indeed sanskrit.
hindu is arabic word .. sindhuism is not a religion .. anyway so akbar made it a religion in 16th century ..so hindus are oldest .. islamic monothiesm of worshipping single god existed since indian adam prophet of 13000bc ..
@@vaibhav2k13 you can call moon a croissant. It doesnt make it a croissant .. the swastika came much later with aryans from sintastha culture land.. what is now Russia.
Get right with God friends, don't wait another day! About 500 prophecies fulfilled hundreds and thousands of years in advance prove the Bible is God's word. Believe and repent, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4!!!
Keep that fundie shit out of serious, academic, conversations, such as history videos like these. Your kind are not needed, wanted, welcome, or encouraged, and should have NEVER been.
No seige warfare requires no huge walls and you mix in warfare similar to greek who met in fields and didn't attack Citys is highly likley. You can bet they where quick to submit and or willing vassels. The walls and gates are very protective against bows and spears lol. Its gaurd shacks obviously. I do wonder if much of these aren't based around a specific resource . Much of the brick building reminds me of mining camps. C
The whole Aryan Invasion Theory is pretty much bullcrap. But to answer your question, according to the theory, they were in the Ukraine and east of the Ukraine. That whole area of Russia.
4,600 Years later Modi is encouraging people to build latrines'???? What did we do to ourselves. Small cups are not uncommon close to commodes in Indian homes even in the West today. Just wiping with tissue doesn't feel clean! just a habit. About the cooking stove interpretation, Probably vastu did not came in to existence by then because now a days cooking is in "SE" direction the direction for Agni ( Aagneyam direction). I wonder what direction is preferred for doing Yganas/Homams? the direction for worshipping gods is North-East to East ( Eesanya) . Water harvesting: did they notice their water sources getting drier? like river Saraswthi dried around that time. At 1:14:49 the ritual offering stand which looks similar to the one with Unicorn seal at 1:02:20.and also 7 figures on religious symbols reminds us of Sapta Rishis and Annunaki? Pipal tree is considered sacred even today...Hmm Aryans associated Bhagawan Vishnu with it!!!.. "Please also read Indigo: India's blue gold". One such Indigo making unit used to exist in my village in S.India until 10-15 years back. I think they built a water tank there later. One needs to understand the culture and customs to interpret the archaeology of the land. Please search for Mrugendra Vinod on UA-cam to understand more about Unicorn seal.
The Indus urban culture seemed to become stagnant. While they did not have wars, the culture seemed to surrender to some controlling behaviors. To me the unicorns were a call for help & when the unicorns disappeared they gave up on a progressive society.
Is there any connection between Aryans arrival with Indus Valley Civilization extinction.? Can we safely say that Harrapans were the original Indians? Do they predate Dravidians?
@@velmurugankandasamy9656 There's nothing called Dravidian...The harapan were mixed race..Iranian + Indo astro Asiatic population....You can't say pure Dravidian..Even now..There's no pure Dravidian in indian..Or pure Aryan..Everyone is now mixed...Don't play dirty divisive politics
This is a subject that many Scolars of India and their Western Peers are not in agreement upon. The Caste System is said to have been brought in rather than indigenous. I don't take a stand on this b/c both offer strong arguments. My research finds Aryans departing and literally traveling through South America, later on to New Zealand, both departures due to desire to avoid war/aggressions. *...and, It is supported by DNA.* That is quite definitive.
Thank you so much. I have been utterly fascinated by every single thing mentioned. Top of the list: a culture which, like the Cretans, did not depict warfare.
and probably like Cretans had something like "mobile walls" - ships/armies aka military treaties; the sheer number could be a deterrent; but I don't agree with the interpretation that the walls are not for used (also) for defense.
Perfect pronunciations of every single Indic name by Dr Jonathan. Just a small cherry on the top of this wonderfully thorough presentation. Thank you so much for making this available on UA-cam.
The reservoir system at Dholavira is such an incredible example of engineering and planning.
Great video. Thank you for your talk on such a thorough research on an impossible problem of history. I live in Islamabad and sometimes I feel I time travel to the Indus cities of the past.
I would like to visit Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa in Pakistan and then see how it is compared to modern Pakistan
@@based4560 Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa are boring if your not a historian.
Of course, the video is very informative and you go into the reasons why you reach certain conclusions -- so thank you for that. But in addition, may I say that your pronunciation of cuontemporary indo/pak terms is on point!
I was hoping to find a mention of "Shahr-i Sokhta" in your lecture. I love how you so clearly explain your topics.
The area from Elam, along the coast of Baluchistan and on to Makran and on to Sindh on one route and another route from Baluchistan to Sindh over land are dotted with settlements, indicating the land was not dry like now but was livable until rendered unlivable. The general trend of migration from Ethiopia and ending at Sumeria went on to the fertile lands of Gujrat, where The Yadava tribe of Krishna preached the Sanatan religion and Dwarka as the nerve center of a vast shipping network with ships sailing to Oman up to Ur or Uruk. The Sumerian legend of Sindbad the sailor is a story of a sailor who took goods fron India o Sumeria.
A great series of videos, the result of years of research, eloquently explained, I hope there are more as this was all new information to me, thanks for uploading
More to come!
Ah, great second post! Answering my questions from the Writing lecture post! What is needed now to advance further understanding? Money, diplomacy, trained archaeologists???
Studying the occupational practices of lower castes - fishermen, herdsmen, agriculturists and construction workers, itinerant traders in the area - in both Pakistan and India.
When you mentioned gates only wide enough for ONE cart, I could almost HEAR a teamster swear when something spooked his beastie and it flipped its biscuits, went "Rodeo" mode, and snapped the yoke poles😂! As someone that has hauled things, and worked with high strung flight animals, I would bet it happened QUITE a bit, in those markets with all the hustle bustle! And the picture I got was an older gentleman, that had been "trucking" longer than most of the younger dudes in his caravan had been alive!
Fantastic! Most comprehensive and succinct summary of a lot of archeological, historical and cultural research, supported by Carbon Dating and DNA studies, relating to Indus Valley and Harappan civilisations! Is it possible to share link to your original research document? Thanks in anticipation.
Hello Dr Jonathan.
First of all thank you so much for this detailed lecture and insights related to the Indus Civilization
Second, I have a question to ask. You focused on Mohenjo daro, Harappa, Lakhanjodaro, Dolavira and also mentions Lothal and Kalibangan. Obviously you must have an entire overview regarding the extent of this beautiful civilisation.
My question is about the government structure. Is it centralised? Or intergovernmental? Of local to cantral. There are lots of similarities to the sites infrastructure developments as in Dolavira, Harappa and Mohenjo daro.
What's your take on that?
Great talk. Thank you for sharing.
I love the topic but this video presentation is great to help fall asleep.
Indus people were originally from ancient Tami trading groups. When sea trade had not developed well and safe, the land routes only available. So Sindhus region had been selected a convenient location to trade with western developed countries like Sumerian etc. So the ancient Tamil traders had established a trade centre in Sindhus region.
Wherever they settled they used to build convenient and comfortable trading centres and made provisions for visiting traders and visitors.
Of course they had their dwelling houses built with elaborate provisions and comforts. As they lived in groups they had their leaders and respected them.
Of course when the traders settled there came their helpers supporters, dependents artisans and other technicians to earn their living.
They had nothing to do with later intruded Aryans of Central Asia. Due to many reasons they migrated to more favourable trading locations.
Of course the thugs like uncultured intruded people and their savage like habits and behaviours could have been one of the reasons. Being naturally peace loving and highly cultured groups, they did not prefer to fight against and drive them out.
You can still find the descendants of Indus people living in Tamilnadu.
Thanks for sharing! Very interesting.
Dang Prof, you got the retroreflex r to the bone! Awesome pronunciations!
Many things in Bhuddism/ Jainism are from Indus-Valley civilization. Indus people are intelligent and sound minded people. Further studies will definitely prove 100% of all these things
No religion in the world developed independently without importing ideas from other cultures. Buddhism and jainism developed at least 1500 years after fall of IVC, so have little to do with with IVC civilization. Rigvedic culture developed just after fall of IVC, infact developed side by side with 'Cementry H Culture' also had a lot of interaction with 'Jhukar Culture' and 'Rangpur Culture'. I think and everyone who is interested in history can easily say that Rigvedic culture and religion is mix of IE and IVC cultures and religions. Shramana ideas and shad-darshan ideas didn't emerged from IVC but emerged during second phase of urbanization around 500 BC. as 100s of years old tribal ideas were not relevant in urban cultures. Shramana movement was like Renaissance of Vedic culture. Anything apart from that is just political or religious propaganda. Shramana happened in two phases paccekabuddha and savaka phases. These traditions drew upon already established Brahmanical concepts to communicate their own distinct doctrines.
@@dheera8889 partly correct but shramana tradition is may not be the Renaissance of vedic culture, it is against vedic tradition. Idols from IVC, the way of dressed and bangled are still followed in followed in India, specially Southern part...like saree, bangles etc.... if it is from vedic tradition, Zorastrians could have followed tha same as it's tradition is near like Rigveda.
@@kikum3067 sharmana movement has nothing to do with South India. Its center was Bihar and Eastern UP (greater magdha). It was based on brahmanic ideas, either in support of some of its concepts or to oppose them. some concepts expended and some reduced. That's it. Time difference within IVC fall and shramana movement is 1500 years, that's enough time not to survive ideas in pre historical times. Second, who the hell told you that bangles are restricted to South. The way bangles are being weared in gujarat rajasthan and sindh is identical to IVC style, also in upper arms. South Indian bangles is identical to ganga valley, not Indus valley. South Indian culture is brahmnic, not sharmana. Shramana is against meat eating, and pro Ahimsha. South India is/was very much meat eating. Gujarat, punjab, rajasthan, haryana, and Western UP is very much vegetarian society. This area was related to IVC directly.
@@dheera8889 brahmins are definitely after many years of IVC. Because in vedas, medieval literature never mentioned about IVC and very little told about shramana tradition. British or European archeologists discovered IVC not any of vedic people. Priests changed from vedic to shramana...is very evident by literature and evidence based archeological proof.
@@kikum3067 I never said brahmins, there was no brahmin caste in Vedic era as it was a tribal socity, and in a tribal society there is no need for labour distribution, so no varna system.. an urban society can't survive without labour distribution so brahmin as a caste is late invention.. I said brahmnic ideas which means pre puranic and after Vedic philosophies of Hinduism like Vedanta, Nyaya, Samkhya, Mimansa, Vaisheshika, and yoga etc in their proto form. Shramana movement is based on already established brahmnic ideas, either to oppose some ideas or to support some ideas. It happened in magdha in Bihar. These ideas had hardly anything to do in Bihar, with an already 1500 ago dead civilization of Punjab. It was a movement of social revival and rethinking of ancient religion, new ideas emerged with new political system. It was a time of social transformation, with the rise of powerful centralised states from tribal societies. Vedas didn't say anything about IVC because there were no IVC in Vedic era, they didn't encounter with IVC but Cementery H. Sharmana movement was way later than Vedas, how could they mention about future movements. But there's enough about sharmana in later literature. Neither Sharmana nor brahmnic philosophies were homogeneous in nature. Shramanas competing with other sharmanas as well as brahmanic philosophies were competing with other brahmanic schools of thoughts. For example lokayata never agreed with buddhists in sharmanas.. same as mimansa never agreed with vaisheshika.. in short it was a new era with new political system so emergence of new ideas, in Bihar. Nothing to do with 1000s of year old dead civilization of Punjab and gujarat.
Swastika is a vedic symbol of peace...Later harapan can be easily seen as development of vedic society in India valley civilization..Fire alters were also found
@Faiz they both means the same,go ahead turckish bootlicker.
@@nopek1405 no they don't
@@mangoesyum can you please elaborate how they differ?
@The Homie Nick Gurr that could have been an autocorrect mistake
It's a comet tail who's drawing was found in a cave painting in Ukraine first some thousands of years ago before vedic period
57:30 several different shapes (3) of what the professor calls “cooking areas” could be actually three types of ritual fire pits as explained in Brahmanas. Professor suggests they are for different types of cuisines - which is not convincing. In India/Pakistan they don’t have different cooking areas for different types of cuisines in a house. The sacrifice scene seen at 1:15:45 with a person in asana pose looking over can be a animal sacrifice scene of a Gomruga (typically seen as unicorn in profile).
An excellent point.
The thing of the unicorn is an absurd.look at the belly, male bovine, is bull. A unicorn hahaha what a trip hahahaha
Arya brahmana came migrate by foot after indus valley civilisation to India around 1500bc. Read yourself the DNA study
Thanks for pronouncing Harappa correctly.
Greetings Dr. Kenoyer. At 1:17 you speak of the connection between the Indus seal and yoga. Could you please elaborate? Would it not e more appropriate to connect it with asana than yoga?
The seals appear to show lotus seated figures, an asana normally associated with meditation & pranayama. That is a resting position rather than a moving or stress or balance position.
All of this is yoga, however b
Baddh konasana
When one examines genetic material, what would be sample size. Can all the remains give indication of diet growth patterns, occupation and cause of death.
I have a more "english" accent when saying Hindi worlds than Dr Kenoyer does.
Well done.
Any gold artifact ever found in Mohenjodaro Harappa ?
This Professor really does excellent presentations with superior clarity and on "great subjects"!
(... and I'm quite an Academic Snob! lol 😉)
I prefer Authentic Academic Minds, those that adhere to the "Standards of Science and Research", rather than the "Mainstream Academics whom hold the 19th Century Darwinian Theory Paradigm" above the "Standards of Science and Research", *"it is an ethical subject, one forcing their peers to support that paradigm, or risk reputation, tenyor, and career."*
I can't abide the "Fraternal Religious Like Behavior" that compromises the academic fields and teaches a public a fiction as History/Science.
It is wise to get neck deep in that one accuses to be "sudo-", to fully understand the subject, artifacts, fossils, Oral and Written Histories + all while "practicing this Standards of Science and Research", which forbids holding a Theory, opinion, belief, or idea, that can prevent the greater facts from emerging. The Science Mind allows for all possibilities, can entertain an idea they may not agree with, and is is in control of the Ego-Mind with Conscious Thoughts and Higher-Minded Standards, this is where Wisdom resides.
This subject shall gain a greater harmony in this decade, as the Truths will emerge and the young minds will demand the hard answers.
*It will benefit the greater Collective and be a refreshing experience of feeling true freedoms, for the Students and the Professionals.*
Best Wellbeing to all ...
Darwinian? Darwin explained evolution over massive time frames and has nothing to do with history.
Humans evolved long before the first cities 200 thousand years ago.
You seem more confused by religious dogma than an academic snob
I almost failed art history because the white teacher insisted that Indian art came from Greece
some influence, maybe.
Then, we can hypothesize that Greek art was influenced by ancient India.
Much of it does just not all.
@@Persian-Immortal You can but not successfully.
@@jeffreypierce1440bs, Indian art has existed independently for thousands of years, there's no 'greek' influence, stop trying to claim foreign civilisations
I'm not sold on the Image being a Unicorn.
unicorn just means one horn.
So there's a link between the Indus Valley and the civilisations of Africa ?
Yes and always has been when the romans asked the Greeks about India they told them the ships arrive in the monsoon season on the east cost of Africa.
The Greeks also told the Romans that the "Nubians were the most handsome men on earth".
Good presentation.
I think we have it wrong in reference to the stark divide we think about when discussing hunters vs agriculturalists. As long as people have encountered cities they move to join. More people = more jobs = more food = more better. Humans stuck to their “tribes” in areas where violence among clans/tribes that prevented the aggregation of people into towns/cities was common. Otherwise if given a choice people are going to choose to live in more densely populated areas because those places are where lightning was commonly caught in bottles
Shell bangles were probably worn by married women, as still is the custom in India.
I dont think its supposed to be a unicorn i think its just a horned animal from a side view
These people were going as far as Peru And Korea I bet
'Meluha' is 'mel loka' meaning 'above world' in the south indian languages
@1:14:00; do you not think that the two sword bearers could be in a stance of protection/reverence?
An archway of swords - similar to what is used as symbolism in some versions of the Lovers card in tarot
Thanks!
You should start deleting the racist trolls in the comments
People move from rural to urban to increase their incomes.
If the seals are so intricate, then why are the figurines so crude!
How long did they sit in the open, before being buried by time? That can make anything look crude, after long enough, depending on the material.
3100 B C. the war happened because of criticism and it was a nuclear was. Which we are now on brink of repeating.
At 3000 bce what would be astronomical events with respect to closest stellar bodies i.e moon and sun. Not just major events like eclipses, but magnetic fields at poles. What would be the tides, currents and streams, prepostulating through climate model profiles.
Goats and sheep are in the wild to be found in mountainous regions ...so logically they have been domesticated in Luristan -Kurdistan/Khordestan Zagros Mountains...it only arrived in the Indus Valley when pastoralists and first farmers immigrated from the Zagros Mountains there...
Wrong
Past distribution is so different from today's distribution especially regarding sheep
Wild sheep specimens were found from Mehrgarh, Narusho(during early harappan era) and even at Afghanistan at an earlier date
Even now wild sheeps(mouflon) are found nearby "eastern" Iran where they share territory with urial
so no need to look for zagros
Most importantly the exact wild ancestor of domestic sheep is not identified until now
We do have wild goat in IVC region
Gradual reduction in size if sheep is clearly noticed during aceramic phase which means domestic sheep evolving from "wild" ancestors
and that proves local domestication process
Recently a bio archive report stated Urial, and argali also contributed very little amount of ancestry to sheeps
Both of them inhabit South and Central Asia
So local domestication is every way possible
There are many evidence I can't list all
Goats do well in the dry tropics - no mountains required. And Goats are not monolithic - some goats are well selected for mountainous terrain and others do well in semidesert scrub.
Why reference indigenous development going back 2 million years (8:15)?! What?! That is, the Homo erectus period has NOTHING to do with modern Homo sapiens expanding out of Africa sometime after 70,000 years ago and eventually giving rise to the Indus Valley Civilization. There may have been "continuous occupation" (Kenoyer's words), but that does not mean it's the same people or culture. The so-called "continuous occupation" was not by the same reproductive population or cultural tradition. That flippant claim of "two million years ago" inexcusably ignores later population migrations that all regions of the Old World experienced. It also disregards a huge amount of linguistic findings. And it also contradicts what he says in his statements that immediately follow about how the Indus area was linked to the Gulf, Mesopotamia, and the surrounding areas of the Indus, including the Deccan. What's going on here? Is he just "winging it", not having prepared a script for this presentation?? Was he tired, and not up to the task at hand? I don't know. I'm disappointed because I admire what Kenoyer has done archaeologically to better understand this important civilization. Now, Kenoyer greatly improves the empirical presentation after this point. So, let's say the factually important point is that the peoples whose various local cultures combined to create (unintentionally in the beginning) the Indus Valley Civilization did so by making use of regional ecological resources to produce a surplus of food crops that led to a complex urbanized culture. Kenoyer even says this at 14:00. That is, it was not Mesopotamians (or some other urbanized area) that came in with their crops and social organization and took over, but that local populations, initially using regional plants and resources and somewhat later utilizing imported crops, integrated their cultural knowledge to develop the Indus Valley Civilization. The part of the presentation (29:10) that deals with brick size and wall repair is very interesting, especially concerning why certain brick sizes were chosen (34:20). As a scale for semi-standardized linear measurements, "...the Indus people used body measurements" (38:22), including distance between thumb and forefinger, as well as what was convenient for the average-sized hands and arms. And the functional uses of all these bricks was to control access to the city (gateways), for household construction, streets, flood control, ritual structures, and for very important waste-water drainage purposes. Note the distinction between mud brick and fire brick. A fascinating part (42:50) of this presentation is about the removal at Harappa and other major sites of fired bricks ("brick-robbed") for modern uses, leaving the "voids" to excavate - which impacts how we interpret construction. Wow. Note: "Mohenjo-daro has not been brick-robbed" (44:15). Yes! The complexity of excavating and interpreting sites modified through time is given at 44:39. Kenoyer's correction of Wheeler's interpretation (45:16) is important for archaeological methods at other complex sites.
"Why reference indigenous development going back 2 million years (8:15)?! What?!" Yes of course, FYI: Story of Ancient India: From the Deep South to North | Dr. Raj Vedam:: ua-cam.com/video/uSX4-DKUpn0/v-deo.html
Great field work, but with a lack of understanding of social and economic relations, urbanism, and architecture. The mentioned context void has led to an unguided and personal interpretation of the physical evidence which make them imaginary.
1. Any archeological evidence for vaidic period? Vedas were written during this period?
2. Who coined the word HINDU? When?
3. Any proof for Asoka's baisnees?
4. When ajivakas, charvakas, Jain, Buddhist all telling atheism,,where was brahminism, a theism? Was brahminism was parallel to these? No there was nothing like brahminism or Hinduism at any Era. Read history again.
5. Oral tradition?? Gurukul??? Sanskrit?? How old is Sanskrit?? What is the proof of Sanskrit's encientness?
Rigved?? When??
Talk with proof.
hindu is arabic word .. and sindhuism is not a religion
@riddunyra4373 and Christianity was and is a cult that should have been wiped out, root and branch before it gained a foothold. Don't think I didn't see that shitty pun putting down a belief system that makes the Abrahamic beliefs look like toddlers, with attendant toddler logic
Silence silence silence guys.
I quench the thirst of you all.
IVC is Buddhist civilization. There were 28 buddhas. 1st was in IVC. Stupa in Mohenjodaro is not of Ad but of 2000 Bc. Rest curiosity i will solve in replies.
i never understood why the ppl talking about other civilizations the most, are the ones who dont have any ruins in their own lands. i.e. christians. christians love talking writing and spreading their opinions on mass media.
they also love fabricating stories about their own european pagan past.
greek, roman and nordic "mythology", egyptian and south american history.
i have lived my whole life in a european country but never held a book in my hands written in runen script.
it was all replaced by jesus and roman culture. they have zero clue who they were 2000 years ago. then they come and jump on other ppls history.
not sure if i like this.
They STOLE other people's history, more like. Wiped it out, erased it, by either coercion or conquest. Their body count, JUST from the Crusades, gives them an obscene amount to answer for. Let alone the various Inquisitions, the witch burnings, etc. They co opt or steal what they can't outright destroy. No REAL culture of their own, and the dual arts of critical thinking and logic, so VERY emphasized in the Classical period, take a HARD back seat to zealotry and fundieism. And FORGET about science. They either have NO concept of it, or they pick, choose, and twist what they can of it for their own benefit.
The Indus Valley was comprehensively. Evacuated over a short period. The inhabitants were faced with a very serious catastrophe at short notice. An imminent invasion by barbaric horsemen from the Russian Steppes, active in the Indus area at the time.
The evacuation involved 5 million people in over 100 cities spread over 1500kms.
We can assume that the evacuation was successful because no human remains to prove the attack have have been found till date.
The migrating inhabitants scattered East and South and settled different parts of India The Indus Valley descendants make up 85 percent of the Indian population today.
The abandoned Indus Valley remained vacated and desolate for 400 years until European. and Central Asian migrants settled the area bringing new language, religion and culture etc with them. The Vedic Civilization.
The imminent invasion never happened because the inhabitants of the Indus Valued Life over wealth.
The people of the Indus valley would not invest in a standing Army but chose the more safer and wiser option of EVACUATION. They had typically planned the operation successfully. They valued Life over Wealth and Prosperity.
welcome to golgumbaz, South Indian
You believe humans existed 2 million years ago?
He’s including archaic humans like en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo
@@GP-uq5qz Homo sapiens sapiens settled the globe less than 200'ooo years ago.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human#History
The idea that the shape of urban civilsation was somehow determined by earlier homo erectus, Neanderthal etc seems pretty nuts to me.
Posi Troll, I think all he's saying (8:30) is the Indus Valley has seen hominids foraging in the area for some 2 million years and has a long history of habitation by hominids. Food production (agriculture) seems to have started around 7000 BC.
@@GP-uq5qz He says that some of the particularities of the indus valley urban civilisation go back to influences from 2 million years ago. That makes very little sense to me, given that homo erectus had no towns, and very little culture that homo sapiens sapiens could have picked up on when it arrived in India 75000 years ago. But Im open to be shown evidence to the contrary ...
Posi Troll I agree, any signs of urbanization before, say, 10,000 BC would be shocking indeed. Small settlements likely started around 8000 BC and urbanization likely after 5000 BC. Also any claim that any culture of hominids that may have lived and foraged in Indus Valley continued after modern Homo sapiens arrived in Indus Valley would be preposterous.
However I didn't think he made such claims. May be I missed it. I thought he was merely mentioning the area was habited by (various) hominids going way back...
Outer peripheral walls could be for protection against wild animals
Nice
The indus valley civilization was a pre vedic/ hindu civilization. There are many evidence like this video mantion. why you don't make this connection.
Lol there is no connection.. indus religion is unknown even vedic religion was different from Hinduism practiced later..
@@dourbeen lol ther are lots of connection, if you don't wants to see it it your prblem. Lol.
😢😢😢 Bricks Robbed.... 😢😢😢😢 Heartbreaking 😢
mehrghar ..the pride of islamic civilization where monitheism cherished under adam prophet
Indus Valley Civilization of Pakistan ❤🇵🇰 My ancestral home town is in between Indus river system. Pakistan Zindabad ❤🇵🇰
When himalaya created that time these civilians all dead.... True
✨️🙂✨️
3:50
It shows Hindu religion not very old not a word of sanskrit at any site just stories no proof
Swastikas, Yogic sculptures, Shiv Lings and Fire altars were found. There are also theories suggesting Indus Script could be related Brahmi script and the language on the seals was indeed sanskrit.
Why lie?
Hinduism is recognised as the oldest practised religion on earth.
Then Zoroastrianism and Judaism.
F'n clown.
Ohhh... Sardar got triggered
hindu is arabic word .. sindhuism is not a religion .. anyway so akbar made it a religion in 16th century ..so hindus are oldest .. islamic monothiesm of worshipping single god existed since indian adam prophet of 13000bc ..
@@vaibhav2k13 you can call moon a croissant. It doesnt make it a croissant .. the swastika came much later with aryans from sintastha culture land.. what is now Russia.
Dr. Jonathan keyoner, could you give your mail id
Google him, his university email will be in the faculty contact list (University of Wisconsin, Madison)
You're a professor, atleast call it what it was. Indus saraswati civilization.
He did not say that because he knew it was not. Read DNA study and learn Aryan Brahmin migration around 1500bc.
Get right with God friends, don't wait another day! About 500 prophecies fulfilled hundreds and thousands of years in advance prove the Bible is God's word. Believe and repent, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4!!!
Keep that fundie shit out of serious, academic, conversations, such as history videos like these. Your kind are not needed, wanted, welcome, or encouraged, and should have NEVER been.
No seige warfare requires no huge walls and you mix in warfare similar to greek who met in fields and didn't attack Citys is highly likley. You can bet they where quick to submit and or willing vassels.
The walls and gates are very protective against bows and spears lol. Its gaurd shacks obviously.
I do wonder if much of these aren't based around a specific resource .
Much of the brick building reminds me of mining camps. C
Where were the aryans
The whole Aryan Invasion Theory is pretty much bullcrap. But to answer your question, according to the theory, they were in the Ukraine and east of the Ukraine. That whole area of Russia.
crapy resolution
They from America stop it 😂 good video tho
4,600 Years later Modi is encouraging people to build latrines'???? What did we do to ourselves. Small cups are not uncommon close to commodes in Indian homes even in the West today. Just wiping with tissue doesn't feel clean! just a habit. About the cooking stove interpretation, Probably vastu did not came in to existence by then because now a days cooking is in "SE" direction the direction for Agni ( Aagneyam direction). I wonder what direction is preferred for doing Yganas/Homams? the direction for worshipping gods is North-East to East ( Eesanya) . Water harvesting: did they notice their water sources getting drier? like river Saraswthi dried around that time. At 1:14:49 the ritual offering stand which looks similar to the one with Unicorn seal at 1:02:20.and also 7 figures on religious symbols reminds us of Sapta Rishis and Annunaki? Pipal tree is considered sacred even today...Hmm Aryans associated Bhagawan Vishnu with it!!!.. "Please also read Indigo: India's blue gold". One such Indigo making unit used to exist in my village in S.India until 10-15 years back. I think they built a water tank there later. One needs to understand the culture and customs to interpret the archaeology of the land. Please search for Mrugendra Vinod on UA-cam to understand more about Unicorn seal.
So they aren't same people.
@@ronhak3736 May be you are right. Nomadic Aryans who came later seems to maintain their standards till now.....
the British empire happened
@@ronhak3736 Aryan invasion myth? really you a nazi too?
Who were these people ? Dravidians?
The Indus urban culture seemed to become stagnant. While they did not have wars, the culture seemed to surrender to some controlling behaviors. To me the unicorns were a call for help & when the unicorns disappeared they gave up on a progressive society.
⁰
It's takshashila please pronounce it properly
Taxila... keep ur religion out of this.
Is there any connection between Aryans arrival with Indus Valley Civilization extinction.? Can we safely say that Harrapans were the original Indians? Do they predate Dravidians?
Dravidian are the indusvalley civilization
Specifically tamil are real Harappan traditional continuity. Rest aryan clone tradition.
Everything in vedas
@@velmurugankandasamy9656 There's nothing called Dravidian...The harapan were mixed race..Iranian + Indo astro Asiatic population....You can't say pure Dravidian..Even now..There's no pure Dravidian in indian..Or pure Aryan..Everyone is now mixed...Don't play dirty divisive politics
This is a subject that many Scolars of India and their Western Peers are not in agreement upon. The Caste System is said to have been brought in rather than indigenous.
I don't take a stand on this b/c both offer strong arguments.
My research finds Aryans departing and literally traveling through South America, later on to New Zealand, both departures due to desire to avoid war/aggressions. *...and, It is supported by DNA.*
That is quite definitive.
Answers are all in the Veds and Purans
Thanks for sharing! Very interesting.