Deep Pocket = More Distance? How I'm Getting There! Improving My Disc Golf Form
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- Опубліковано 10 вер 2024
- Let's discuss getting into the deep pocket and how I believe it gets us more power. Then let's see what I am doing to get there consistently.
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Excellent reference to the rigid portion of the whip. I think the faster we try to throw, the more our elbow collapses into our bodies, resulting in even less whip. You're spot on when you say that you don't need much of a reach back to throw far "enough". The whip action alone is powerful. Now rubber-band + elbow whip = peak distance, but if you only achieve the elbow whip, you do just fine.
Great shout out to Nick as well. I think he hits a few important pieces of the throw, including timing the arm extension, though I still cannot seem to get that right. 😂
Yeah I love Nick's stuff. He's so stinking smart...lol
cool, ty
Well if Josh *isn't* watching, he's missing out!! I'm watching; thanks for putting these out.
Yeah, man, he is! LOL. Thanks for watching!
Another great video. I really enjoy how you break things up into digestible pieces!
Thanks so much!
Great information. I know I don't get into the deep pocket and it is killing my whip, snap, and ultimately my distance. I'm definitely going to use these progressions to hopefully add some distance in the near future. Thanks!
You are in good company, I am sure. Let me know how it goes! Thanks for watching and commenting!
I’m skeptical about both the deep pocket and any kind of manual pulling of the arm. Pros such as Mcbeth, Schultz, and Feldberg never reach the deep pocket, yet are able to throw consistently far. Seabass has also mentioned the throw/pull being a sling and not an actual pull of the arm. Trebuchet disc golf has mentioned though there is a small manual pull of the arm, but it’s late and I imagine similar to what you’re mentioning here, but he mentioned for newer players not to focus on this part until they’ve developed better swing mechanics.
Physics say the acceleration of the disc would happen quicker through a centripetal acceleration, only achieved by the lower handle (the lower arm) moving away from the body. This is where I don’t like the whole notion of Overthrow’s straight pull. A straight pull is much slower than something that will arc out. Manual pulling will also put more tension into the arm, which could likely lead to an even slower movement of the arm and disc. Disc golf doctor has mentioned this too, which is why he teaches a manual bend motion that isn’t a manual pull. However, a sling, which could be a somewhat taught, yet loose arm (mostly the forearm, with upper arm acting as some support for the elbow and room inside) will bend naturally inside.
I might be wrong here, but I’m beginning to think a manual pull has been taught because it helps people not think about rotating their shoulders, which will get them more distance, but elite distance it will not. Trebuchet disc golf also talks about this, specifically mentioning a full manual pull of the arm, similar to what Overthrow teaches I can only assume, can only get you about 350-400 feet of distance. So, I really do think that a mostly or entirely manual pull is a bad practice, and that the pull term itself is a bad term to use when discussing the sling.
For me, I switched to my idea of (not really mine, more like Seabass’s description) a sling, and I’ve noticed markedly longer shots. I’m over 300 feet (measured with two different tools) with a mid and 350 with a slow fairway doing a slow and short xstep and not quite a full reachback. So for me, practicing this sling idea of the pull has netted me far more distance than doing some manual pull of the arm. However, I could be wrong, but I think we need someone who throws elite distance to change their pocket to determine whether deep or shallow pockets yield significantly different distances, or not, based on some observations.
Yeah, I like the insight. You could very well be right. It could also be that different approaches work for different people. I used more of a sling approach, and I got stuck. When I started focusing more on getting into the pocket, my distance changed pretty drastically. Interesting discussion for sure! Thanks for the comment!
I like the Overthrow videos of "arming the disc" pt1 and pt2.
Because you're right about McBeth, but there's also Wiggins and Lizotte for example, who definitely have the elbow outside their body (examples shown in the OT video).
I wonder how much of it is your physiology and how much is just which cue will clue your mind in correctly.
For example I can't get rid of nose up with the sling version. But 1 session of straight pulling got me nose down.
There are clearly others that can get nose down with the sling. Physiology or just brain misfire, who knows?
@ioweutube2 Yeah, I think it is a personal thing. Even Josh admits some people need to be more "spinny" and other pull straight through. Depends on what suits your comfort and thought process. It's also tough to base much on McBeth. He breaks all the rules of form technique by just being an athletic beast...lol
You're correct. None of the pros 'pull' the disc, this is plain wrong advice and I'll happily say that about anyone who encourages it, including popular youtube coaches. The key aspect of the release is the upper arm remaining completely motionless while the forearm slings out - this is how you attain maximum velocity with the mechanics of a human arm. Some of the pros have their upper arm outside of the 90 degree pocket or 'box' when they release but if you watch (Lizotte for example) you'll see that crucially the upper arm still doesn't move, allowing all the energy to transfer to the forearm. The power pocket is just the natural motion of the upper arm-forearm-disc coupled system as the torso rotates.
No-one who throws 500'+ does a 'pull through'. No-one.
@@guyincognito. I appreciate the comment but the fact that no one that throws 500 pulls through is simply not true. Mikey from OT, Nick Crush, and Clint from Its Blitz all throw 500+ and all use some variation of what I am talking about here.
Also, I am in the Power Disc Golf academy. And Holyn Hanley, Ezra Aderhold, and Simon Lizotte all talk about the "pull through" getting into the power pocket. As a matter of fact, in Simon's upper body mechanics video that I just rewatched, his direct quote is "every pro on tour that throws over 500 feet drives through their throw with the elbow." And the motion he demonstrates is what I demonstrate here. He even uses the word pull to describe how to get the elbow into the pocket.
Gannon Buhr on his channel also talks about pulling through to get into the power pocket. He throws over 500 ft.
So while I appreciate that there are varying opinions on this and that what I discuss may not be what everyone does, heck I even accept that I may not be accurate all the time. The blanket statement that this doesn't work for anyone just doesn't hold water.
What kind of distance are you getting these days Marc? This will be my next field work exercise.
I can hit 400 pretty consistently. My goal is a 450 golf shot. I think I can get there.
Love the discussion and appreciate the content, especially being a fellow Power Disc Golf Academy community member. I see the value in what you're saying but will just say one thing to think about, maybe just for me. I used to try to get into a deep pocket and started experiencing some bad shoulder pain so I switched to an out in out form more like how Ezra describes in his lessons in the Academy. If I'm not mistaken he promotes going to the left pec/middle not the right. However, full disclosure I'm 47 and have been playing less then a year (throw about 420ish max atm). So I may just be to fragile to get in that position lol.
Nope, that's a great point. And yes, Ezras' lesson teaches middle. I may be asking for trouble, but I've never been accused of being restrained when it comes to sports. :) Point taken, though. And one I should probably consider at 50...lol. Thanks for the comment!
I've been similarly experimenting with the deeper pocket (right pec) and I am noticing it a bit in my elbow. Currently attributing it to 2 things.
1: I'm throwing a lot right now, because it's so interesting to make form changes. Pitch counts matter, so don't overdo it.
2: A new throw strains new muscles & joints in a new way. So go slower, more iterations below max power. More warm up. If I suddenly add 5 mph to my throw, it might take a little bit for my body to learn how to decelerate that as smooth as my older speed. So let the body adapt.
@@ioweutube2 GREAT points! Thank you!
I’ve been wanting to play Broken Chain!
And I’m pretty sure this is how I throw. Without even thinking about it.
It is. I've watched your slo motion form. Some people just get it naturally. And the rest of us hate you for it. LOL! ;)
@@discsmdha! You’ve been crushing it lately!
Bunky great to see you out there, I am the Chocolate Town Classic guy, my name is Jon I played MA3! Apologies I didn't give my name there too lol lunch was short needin to walk down to the lower lot. I appreciate the kindness to talk with me, let's get this Broken Chains 900 round going! Excited to work with you on this one, iconic PA course imo. What's the best way to reach you so we can set somethin up?
Hit me up on IG! Super excited to do it, too!!
Really great progressions I may try them
Thanks! Let me know how it works for you!
Recently I felt something in my throw that I never had before, and that was created through lag. Having the disc standstill at the top of the backswing as you plant and snap your hips, is creating more power in my throw than ever before. I think this is probably the most important ‘feel’ in the throw. Now learning not to collapse your shoulders and have the disc accelerate from the left peck forward is the next big step in making the throw truly high level. But I don’t think anyone should worry about the power pocket until you learn to feel that lagging leverage weight of the disc. Granted I have no athletic background but this was extremely unnatural for me.
Yeah, that is for sure not the natural way your body wants to throw, but the power pocket is the most effective and powerful. I would honestly encourage any new player to learn to get to the pocket first. Deep pocket admittedly is much more advanced. But establishing habits early on that don't promote you getting into the pocket is a bad idea for your development. I speak from experience. But I get it; this isn't for everyone. You have to do what you feel comfortable with. Make the game enjoyable. Thanks for the comment!
Great insights!
Thanks dude!
At 43 years I hit 450on flat by doing the deep pocket ( not curling ) the biggest issue I see when people do this is they still rotate into it.
The feeling for me is I pull into the right pectoral with so much velocity that there is nowhere to go, and the body naturally rotates to relase the energy
Yeah, over rotating is my biggest issue. Which is why I do the stand still progression. Ive gottw3n better but still need work...lol
I’ll give that pull-into-right-pec cue a try
@@clawshooter5867 tried pulling into my right pec today and got a notable increase in distance and also got more turn out of discs that previously had no turn for me
I would rather speak about pocket compression than deep pocket. Deep pocket is only half of the recipe. When you feel the deep pocket right, the throw feels like 1% effort and its comes from hunting the pocket compression, not deep pocket. When searching the feeling it might help forgetting that your goal is to throw and try to think you goal is to get pocket compression and rest is happening automaticly like in an actual trebhuchet
Great video overall and very well explained.
I would probably argue that we are talking about the same thing but in different words. The tension I talk about is the compression you are talking about. And yes, the majority is about feel, but we need to know the mechanics it takes to get us there as well. Great insight. Thanks for the comment!
Yeah, most of the time I felt we are speaking the same thing. Just wanted to clarify because there is big difference getting the tension vs elbow traveling so far that you miss the tension. Nick Krush have as a cue to get the disc to armpit. Blitz use to get disc inside you. Jaani says to hide disc behind the bicept. I think it was Nick that said that in 70mph throw from powerpocket to release is 0,1s so no time to actually contract muscles. That tension and built up momentum is all you got.
@pisteville7797 Yeah, believe it or not, I chatted with Nick a little bit before I made this video. So we are on the same page. I'm still trying to figure out which cue suits me yet.
The one thing I struggle with is that Simon, in his instruction videos in the Academy, talks about driving with the elbow.
@@discsmd Is that in the powerDGA? Need to check that one again is so.
I disagree with the way the power pocket is being demonstrated. He is releasing side ways and not recruiting his chest muscles in the release. His arm is beating his body to the hit. Most pros are facing their target upon a back hand release.
I know I shouldn't, but I feel like I need to respond to this to help clear things up.
First, if you are watching or listening to someone who says you throw a BH with your chest muscles, please stop. You use a majority of posterior muscle groups to throw a BH. Traps, Lats, Rear Delts, etc. There is some anterior muscle engagement (mainly core) but certainly not chest. I don't think any coach worth their salt will teach that.
Second, I would encourage you to watch as many slow-motion clips of pros throwing backhand as you can. I doubt you will find any that have their chest open to their target at release. There is just no power in that. Most are about 45° off their target at release.
Last, the progression in this video promotes exaggeration of arm movement through the zone, which I learned from Josh White of OverThrow. And your hand should 100% beat your body to the hit. That's the point of the video. :)
Hope that clears it up! Thanks for watching and commenting!