Handling + less hp is more fun, you need to use every gear up to the limiter and you need a lot of accuracy to be fast. Every car can be fast on a straight line
I drove an Rs3 for a while and yeah it was quick it was so boring, just plant your foot and paddle shift but my stripped out 2zzge celica rowing through the gear screaming at 8250RPM is way more fun to drive.
This video is a perfect mirror to my experiences. I currently have a 400whp 135i M sport and my last car was an Acura RSX (very similar to the EP3). My RSX had full suspension, race brakes, Poly everything, braces, 'Cheater tires' etc. My 1er has FBO, minor suspension updates and rear subframe braces on street tires. For me, its not even a comparison on the track, the RSX was more fun in everyway besides the straights. The big 6 Piston calipers on the 1er will cook the 'sport' pads after a few good laps. The RSX would run all day with no fade, no issues etc. I will forever be a fan of light weight, engaging cars.
as someone who was raised in the performance tuning of the 1990's the mantra was forget about BHP, brakes and suspension first no good getting to a bend at 150 MPH to find out you can't slow down or get around the curve
@@lmartinmiami82 MP3 how posh, my first audio upgrade was from a bog standard Vauxhall tape deck to a Blaupunkt CD player, MP3 was a thing of fancy back then. i admit to having a JanSpeed back box on it was the thing with Nova's back then
@@MrDavidfball in my 90's I was very young and definitely did not took the best decisions ahah. In Europe in the 90's when you had 150hp you was very lucky so listening a lazy 4cyl. Or a 6cyl. 🙄 At that time the best for me was the e36 3.2l this was and still is magnificent to listen all day long with no music.
@@lmartinmiami82 back then though cars with 150 BHP (i had a Calibra 16v with that power) were not weighed down with 101 electric devices or systems to make someone with no talent the new Michael Schumacher. they could get some decent speed and a good driver stood out a mile, cars now have good power but weigh half a ton more
@@MrDavidfball true I my crx and that drama speed being at 220km/h was like 300 😅. Good thing is now it's easy to double or triple the Hp but we lost in feelings because of confort, weight,... In France guys like Renault because of taxes and réglementation have to keep their engine small therefore the weight down and that keep these cars like clio rs or Megan rs pretty fun, wish they would do rwd one though...
I thoroughly enjoyed this one! As a civic owner it pleases me to see with simple handling mods and braking upgrades I can develop a car that still remains fun and a little competitive as well despite any horsepower disadvantages 🤙🏻
And the most important when you compare cars: how do they FEEL. Which one you enjoy more. After this the numbers come. The things which are not in catalogs are more important.
I had an EP3, I put a Mugen Torsten diff in there. What an amazing car that was, the grip was fantastic. And the K20 with the VTEC @6’000 was just magical, intoxicating, what a noise ! Drawback was you would start getting nervous at 220.
The M140i Chassis is so poor from factory, but with some decent springs an LSD and the underbody chassis mounts from BMW it actually starts to handle very nicely. Shame BMW couldn't do it from factory, but I guess it would have been too close to the M2.
My driving instructor for my first track day did a lot of wheel to wheel races in Hondas. When I still had my Civic Si, he told me "Hondas are low on power for a reason. They are momentum cars". I have since moved on to a different car but I will never forget what he said.
In the end of the day for one ring tool made especially for the nurburgring starts always with handling mods, suspension, tires, brakes etc and only when you feel very confident with that you will go for some performance mods, but always remember, on the nordschleife the power sometimes can be your biggest enemy. Have fun guys and thanks for this amazing content misha!
Did you read this from a script cuz it was sooo good, and the editing was on point, we need more of these comparison videos again, really super Cool!!!
Power is nothing without control, but control can be without power. And when you combine those two, it will be hell lot of fun. Writing This before watching video.
You should definitely make some more videos with comparison of other cars with different modifications, it shows what the real difference is! And my personal opinion is that handling are way more important then horsepower! It's always better to drive the slow car fast, than fast car slow!
Misha you do a great job on all of your videos and this one was just like the rest, I’d love to see more of these type of videos but I’ll watch anything you post lol
Well another informative video , most off it i already implemented on my performance car. Learned early that who comes out off the corner the fastest has a good change off winning a race. However as you eluded to that a variety off modifications are a compromise at the least. What i learned today from you is that brake fade on the Bimmer will cause understeer, not a feature that you like to happened. Again love your experience on the Nordschleife , a great R&D report, about car set ups. And keep those reviews coming. Thanks for the afford .
Love these videos, pushes EP prices up 😂 Seriously though ep3's are great! If you can get over how chavy they look and the weird steering rack. Mines a decent spec now and goes pretty well👍
Handling So many Euro hatchbacks blew by my 500 tq muscle car like it was nothing. Suspension components were already on-order; that experience reaffirmed the decision.
I love these comments as my 2 daily drivers are a rear wheel drive M140i and Megane RS III Aus GP special edition... Both hot hatches bother blindingly fast but both completely different. I can't say I could live without either of them 😁
Need one of those hybrid racing shifters in my ep3! Awesome video , very interesting to see the difference even with the type R being so down on power compared
Used to have the M135i with a few power mods.....had more fun in my Clio 182 cos of the handling. People just need to have the car they enjoy and not worry about numbers.
Great video Misha illustrating how power isn't everything. I'm finding my M240i has way too much power for how poorly the stock set up is on the car. I mostly drive on twisty mountain-ish roads, and even then, driving moderately, I find the setup to be very lacking in the "fun" department. Too much power, too much understeer. I much preferred using lighter cars with better brakes, better suspension and tires and less power.
I vote for a combination of the two , handling and power... perhaps the NSX is a fun ringtool since emissions getting important these days 😎 Anyway , great vid again Mischa !
this vid was pure genius! A new format found, and a very interesting one. Looking forward to you comparing driving Ring laps in a Koenigsegg Jesko and a Tuatara :D
@@charlesmartin6967 fair enough, I wanna say maybe just get a track car and keep the gti as a nice zippy daily. I have seen guys spending so much on gti but it doesn’t fully paid off
Not saying gti is bad, but it was intended to be a fun little city daily driver. It’s just great from stock, I drove it it’s still really fun but needs a lot of work. There are some cars was purposefully built maybe more ideal.
Hey Misha, I'd like to see a comparison between a M2 (N55) and M3 F80 or M4. There is a lot of discussion in the Internet if the M2 really is the more fun and faster car on track. Thank you for doing such videos. It is always interesting to hear opinions on "normal" or modified cars from an actual race driver.
As a previous owner of a Honda CRX with a swapped in ITR motor and a few Mazda Miatas(mx-5), no doubt, I would have more fun with light weight, low(ish) hp, and a properly set up chassis. "If you can't go fast with 90hp, 900 ain't gonna help you". - Bob Hall (Father of the Mazda mx-5).
I smiled when you mentioned "bottlenecking" as it is exactly what I had in mind as I watched. In essence you're really having to manage the LOWEST performing aspect every time you want to make a change, as any one aspect getting way out in front simply isn't efficient or even going to improve PRACTICAL performance. I was thinking the power v handling question is a bit like building a gaming PC, something with which I suspect at least some people who watch your channel are familiar. You can put a monster graphics card in it, but if you lack a CPU and RAM combo able to utilise it correctly it's like generating wheelspin. Similarly, a great CPU AND GPU aren't much good if you can't manage the heat; you'll get fantastic performance until it overheats and throttles back or shuts down, and you have to hope you don't damage something. Thus cooling of the case and components becomes a factor. Oh, you then need to make sure you've got a power source that can run all this, too. Then you can also overclock GPUs and CPUs, but you potentially suffer a reliability and/or endurance hit; overclock or get something a bit more powerful and run it at stock settings? Bottlenecking indeed. Really liked the side by side lap segment comparison format. Fun video, thanks Misha.
Definitely handling and braking for me. Those were the first much to come on my Track Citroën C2. Only after that I upgraded the power. Also, I like very light cars, there is no greater feeling than a very light, balanced car on track!
The difference between 8:40 and 8:25 (520 seconds and 515 seconds) is 3% - and I think that alone was the non-race conditions where you couldn't be more aggressive with the Honda's advantages of weight in the corners while following slower cars and being safe - so statistically the cars are the same for 1 lap. However, 400kg is like having 2 filled fridges following you into a brake zone - and as we see on a track, weight is the ultimate killer so I would choose the Handa every time - not even a close decision.
The thing I learnd in the past years is, that weight is everything if it comes to a fun driving experiance. I was used to my 535i with 300hp and bought a Mini One with 95hp. You can't win a price on the straight with the Mini, but it's so light and so much more fun to drive. If I wouldn't need the space, I would sell the 5-Series and buy a Cooper S.
Handling is more fun and makes your car safer
And yourself aswell. Winwinwin
and makes you a better driver because everyone can go fast in powerful car but only good drivers can go fast with low amount of horsepower.
@@wassilia1234 NO, not everyone can go fast in a powerful car. Sometime not even in a straight line.
Mr. Chapman & Mr. Honda knew this!
Just put 500hp in the civic
Sometimes even I am amazed by my own brilliancy
Then you would lose the front end
and 4wd
@@APBperformance And you’d lose on the weight .
@@maitreyoda7404 Add lightness.
Get this man a job at NASA.
Handling for me is everything!
Couldn't agree more!
Cannot agree more. If I should spend money for turbo or shocks, I would always go for shocks.
@@110eidyR and tires. They make a huge difference. For me tires then suspension and brakes.
Same. Rather drive a 90hp car around the twisties than a 500hp car on the highway
as continental once said " POWER is NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL "
*Pirelli 👍
That really was pirellis Marketing wasnt it?
I still see Leclerc crashing into Verstappen in front of this banner.
@@gameboyterrorysta6307 lol
I’m in the handling Fanclub right now!!!
Absolutely 💯
Are we supposed to hold on to the hope you'll be owning a Honda sometime from now? 😉
@@gerardjoaquino8856 maybe the e30 got him excited for older cars again and he'll buy a new old track toy ^^
and you are Tier 1!!!
Handling + less hp is more fun, you need to use every gear up to the limiter and you need a lot of accuracy to be fast. Every car can be fast on a straight line
Right, and exactly why the MX-5 has sold so well for so long.
I drove an Rs3 for a while and yeah it was quick it was so boring, just plant your foot and paddle shift but my stripped out 2zzge celica rowing through the gear screaming at 8250RPM is way more fun to drive.
This video is a perfect mirror to my experiences. I currently have a 400whp 135i M sport and my last car was an Acura RSX (very similar to the EP3).
My RSX had full suspension, race brakes, Poly everything, braces, 'Cheater tires' etc. My 1er has FBO, minor suspension updates and rear subframe braces on street tires.
For me, its not even a comparison on the track, the RSX was more fun in everyway besides the straights. The big 6 Piston calipers on the 1er will cook the 'sport' pads after a few good laps. The RSX would run all day with no fade, no issues etc.
I will forever be a fan of light weight, engaging cars.
This is nice to hear as I have a es2 track build coming along, very fun car k20 no power steering no abs just raw driving inputs and feedback
Definitely you should make more comparison videos like this, well done.
Oh definitely, I love these vids!
as someone who was raised in the performance tuning of the 1990's the mantra was forget about BHP, brakes and suspension first no good getting to a bend at 150 MPH to find out you can't slow down or get around the curve
Not the same 90's than mine ahah mine was intake, exhaust and mp3 CD music player first :)
@@lmartinmiami82 MP3 how posh, my first audio upgrade was from a bog standard Vauxhall tape deck to a Blaupunkt CD player, MP3 was a thing of fancy back then.
i admit to having a JanSpeed back box on it was the thing with Nova's back then
@@MrDavidfball in my 90's I was very young and definitely did not took the best decisions ahah. In Europe in the 90's when you had 150hp you was very lucky so listening a lazy 4cyl. Or a 6cyl. 🙄 At that time the best for me was the e36 3.2l this was and still is magnificent to listen all day long with no music.
@@lmartinmiami82 back then though cars with 150 BHP (i had a Calibra 16v with that power) were not weighed down with 101 electric devices or systems to make someone with no talent the new Michael Schumacher.
they could get some decent speed and a good driver stood out a mile, cars now have good power but weigh half a ton more
@@MrDavidfball true I my crx and that drama speed being at 220km/h was like 300 😅. Good thing is now it's easy to double or triple the Hp but we lost in feelings because of confort, weight,... In France guys like Renault because of taxes and réglementation have to keep their engine small therefore the weight down and that keep these cars like clio rs or Megan rs pretty fun, wish they would do rwd one though...
Nothing can beat the feel of being on the limit of a balanced car 😁
Cornerspeed!
Team Shirmer approved.
MIS H A
S CH IRMER
The ch h chhchch is messing with me?!?
you are, by far, best car youtuber rn, congrats not only to you, but all the team of apex.
I thoroughly enjoyed this one! As a civic owner it pleases me to see with simple handling mods and braking upgrades I can develop a car that still remains fun and a little competitive as well despite any horsepower disadvantages 🤙🏻
Handling, nothing beats a well setup car that you can use to its full potential.
Honda's are very good track cars, just needs good brakes,gummi and suspension..
Love this type of vid's👍😎
Great comparison, Misha! Thanks for creating it. More of these would be fun to watch.
And the most important when you compare cars: how do they FEEL. Which one you enjoy more. After this the numbers come.
The things which are not in catalogs are more important.
I had an EP3, I put a Mugen Torsten diff in there. What an amazing car that was, the grip was fantastic. And the K20 with the VTEC @6’000 was just magical, intoxicating, what a noise ! Drawback was you would start getting nervous at 220.
This is content! I heard Robert was jealous and now we know why. ;)
The M140i Chassis is so poor from factory, but with some decent springs an LSD and the underbody chassis mounts from BMW it actually starts to handle very nicely. Shame BMW couldn't do it from factory, but I guess it would have been too close to the M2.
Everybody who is watching this video, knows the answer but watches it till the end😆😆.
Your "Honest Comparison" part was something many forget! Great job on putting it out there
Comparisons are awesome! thank you
Super interesting one. Definitely make more of such videos with different comparisons.
My driving instructor for my first track day did a lot of wheel to wheel races in Hondas. When I still had my Civic Si, he told me "Hondas are low on power for a reason. They are momentum cars". I have since moved on to a different car but I will never forget what he said.
Really good content Misha. Keep it up
In the end of the day for one ring tool made especially for the nurburgring starts always with handling mods, suspension, tires, brakes etc and only when you feel very confident with that you will go for some performance mods, but always remember, on the nordschleife the power sometimes can be your biggest enemy. Have fun guys and thanks for this amazing content misha!
Balance of performance, if something sticks out it doesn't help, harmony of all factors which influence overall performance.
Great video Misha!👍
The maximum improvements as possible in handling and break and just enough power for poweroversteer.
I would think that this type of content is great... Enjoyed the video, and I totally agree!
Did you read this from a script cuz it was sooo good, and the editing was on point, we need more of these comparison videos again, really super Cool!!!
Nope, and thank you :)
Keep up this series and make it a regular thing for sure!
Power is nothing without control, but control can be without power. And when you combine those two, it will be hell lot of fun.
Writing This before watching video.
Nice video Misha 👌🏻👌🏻 I would pick the Honda any day for this kind of use 😎
Kay - you should give your car to Misha for a drive!
You should definitely make some more videos with comparison of other cars with different modifications, it shows what the real difference is! And my personal opinion is that handling are way more important then horsepower! It's always better to drive the slow car fast, than fast car slow!
Misha you do a great job on all of your videos and this one was just like the rest, I’d love to see more of these type of videos but I’ll watch anything you post lol
Very nice video Misha. I would like to see more of these car comparison videos 😎👍
I loved this comparison, please make more of them
Well another informative video , most off it i already implemented on my performance car. Learned early that who comes out off the corner the fastest has a good change off winning a race. However as you eluded to that a variety off modifications are a compromise at the least. What i learned today from you is that brake fade on the Bimmer will cause understeer, not a feature that you like to happened. Again love your experience on the Nordschleife , a great R&D report, about car set ups. And keep those reviews coming. Thanks for the afford .
Excellent video and overlay
Love these videos, pushes EP prices up 😂
Seriously though ep3's are great! If you can get over how chavy they look and the weird steering rack.
Mines a decent spec now and goes pretty well👍
Handling first always with a dab of power mods of course 👌👍
This is brilliant Misha. I'm a big 1 series fan, but I love the comparison given here.
Handling and grip is always the priority. Power is the cherry on the cake - when it`s in harmony with the rest.
I really like both a lot.
But it's always fun chasing a more powerful car with an underdog.
Handling
So many Euro hatchbacks blew by my 500 tq muscle car like it was nothing. Suspension components were already on-order; that experience reaffirmed the decision.
Unless your track of choice is Monza, Daytona or Road America, handling is king...
This was really interesting.. keep it up sir!
Awesome comparison! great content
6:11 E36 ftw!
I love these comments as my 2 daily drivers are a rear wheel drive M140i and Megane RS III Aus GP special edition... Both hot hatches bother blindingly fast but both completely different. I can't say I could live without either of them 😁
Need one of those hybrid racing shifters in my ep3! Awesome video , very interesting to see the difference even with the type R being so down on power compared
Please do more more of this Videos!
Used to have the M135i with a few power mods.....had more fun in my Clio 182 cos of the handling.
People just need to have the car they enjoy and not worry about numbers.
That cannot happen if you have never had the power. Once you've had a fast car and is out of your system then yes.
Nice Video, Misha. Like the smooth Music in the Background.
Great video Misha illustrating how power isn't everything. I'm finding my M240i has way too much power for how poorly the stock set up is on the car. I mostly drive on twisty mountain-ish roads, and even then, driving moderately, I find the setup to be very lacking in the "fun" department. Too much power, too much understeer. I much preferred using lighter cars with better brakes, better suspension and tires and less power.
I vote for a combination of the two , handling and power... perhaps the NSX is a fun ringtool since emissions getting important these days 😎 Anyway , great vid again Mischa !
this vid was pure genius! A new format found, and a very interesting one. Looking forward to you comparing driving Ring laps in a Koenigsegg Jesko and a Tuatara :D
That was so interesting! Looking forward for another one
This was very nice of you.
Wow Misha, братуха, this video is dope!! We need more!!!
I would definitely pick handling over power. I stopped adding power on my GTI and started working more on handling.
Maybe should switch a platform
@@itchyonion3559 true and I tried before but I didn't really have much option during that time.
@@charlesmartin6967 fair enough, I wanna say maybe just get a track car and keep the gti as a nice zippy daily. I have seen guys spending so much on gti but it doesn’t fully paid off
Not saying gti is bad, but it was intended to be a fun little city daily driver. It’s just great from stock, I drove it it’s still really fun but needs a lot of work. There are some cars was purposefully built maybe more ideal.
@@itchyonion3559 I agree with you on the GTI. Maybe in the future I may be able to get a track car for Nürburgring but we'll see. Thanks man!
This was a great video, and I would love to see more of these comparisons!! Thank you Misha for the content!
Thank you for not putting sponsors in the video!
Very well edited video! I would love more of these types of videos.
Nice video! Could you please make some technical content about how you'd set up the suspensions for the track?
To be fair 15 seconds is an eternity in racing, even on a long track such as the Nurburgring
This type of videos are really cool! Keep doing them! Love them! Really interesting analysis.
Hey Misha, I'd like to see a comparison between a M2 (N55) and M3 F80 or M4. There is a lot of discussion in the Internet if the M2 really is the more fun and faster car on track.
Thank you for doing such videos. It is always interesting to hear opinions on "normal" or modified cars from an actual race driver.
Yes!
Make more like this one.
I would be interested to see a 997 GT3 vs a 991 turbo.
Useful video! Thank you!
Yes, please make more similar videos.
Your Videos getting better and better with every single one Like it
And yeah please more Videos Like this one 👌
This is an great video on why you should have a competent braking system before trying to push on the ring
Nice video Misha, please make more like these. 👍
Enjoyed that comparison, looking forward to more of your expertise :)
Brilliant content here. Great video today
As a previous owner of a Honda CRX with a swapped in ITR motor and a few Mazda Miatas(mx-5), no doubt, I would have more fun with light weight, low(ish) hp, and a properly set up chassis.
"If you can't go fast with 90hp, 900 ain't gonna help you". - Bob Hall (Father of the Mazda mx-5).
Really great video Misha!
Great content! Thank you from Spain.
More of these video pls Misha. Thumbs up 👍🏻
This video had me thinking about that K-swapped Lotus you took for a lap last year Misha.
Might have to go watch that one again now.
plz moore of this during the offseason!
A bit of both really
Honda is the definition of racing and motorsports. Absolutely legendary name.
I like this Civic Type R, that gear lever close to the steering wheel.
I smiled when you mentioned "bottlenecking" as it is exactly what I had in mind as I watched. In essence you're really having to manage the LOWEST performing aspect
every time you want to make a change, as any one aspect getting way out in front simply isn't efficient or even going to improve PRACTICAL performance.
I was thinking the power v handling question is a bit like building a gaming PC, something with which I suspect at least some people who watch your channel are familiar. You can put a monster graphics card in it, but if you lack a CPU and RAM combo able to utilise it correctly it's like generating wheelspin. Similarly, a great CPU AND GPU aren't much good if you can't manage the heat; you'll get fantastic performance until it overheats and throttles back or shuts down, and you have to hope you don't damage something. Thus cooling of the case and components becomes a factor. Oh, you then need to make sure you've got a power source that can run all this, too. Then you can also overclock GPUs and CPUs, but you potentially suffer a reliability and/or endurance hit; overclock or get something a bit more powerful and run it at stock settings?
Bottlenecking indeed.
Really liked the side by side lap segment comparison format.
Fun video, thanks Misha.
Great video, quality content as always 👍
Power is not the only thing to make up sports car. Dynamic maneuverability is the key.
I fall in love with big breaks 😍 always looking good on the car
Definitely handling and braking for me. Those were the first much to come on my Track Citroën C2. Only after that I upgraded the power. Also, I like very light cars, there is no greater feeling than a very light, balanced car on track!
The difference between 8:40 and 8:25 (520 seconds and 515 seconds) is 3% - and I think that alone was the non-race conditions where you couldn't be more aggressive with the Honda's advantages of weight in the corners while following slower cars and being safe - so statistically the cars are the same for 1 lap. However, 400kg is like having 2 filled fridges following you into a brake zone - and as we see on a track, weight is the ultimate killer so I would choose the Handa every time - not even a close decision.
Great video!
Very interesting comparison!
Please do more of these!
Love the video format!
Less weight or more power would be an interesting comparison too
Less weight will always win in the long run.
The thing I learnd in the past years is, that weight is everything if it comes to a fun driving experiance. I was used to my 535i with 300hp and bought a Mini One with 95hp.
You can't win a price on the straight with the Mini, but it's so light and so much more fun to drive. If I wouldn't need the space, I would sell the 5-Series and buy a Cooper S.
Less weight is a total win in cornering.
Power helps you on straights. Less weight helps you on straights, on corners and in braking.
Yes Misha, more video's like this please :-D
No.1 mod: brakes. No.2 mod: driver. ☺
Lmao I love the mini tangents Misha gets on to 😂
Handling with enough power to get out of the corners fast 💪.... a good mix to brake late and come out fast and clean ....
Combination of both for me. Nice music added :)
It's the smooth background music for me.