FREMM Frigate: Which Version is Better, French or Italian?
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- FREMM is a Franco-Italian family of multi-purpose frigates designed by Naval Group and Fincantieri. In France, this surface combatant is known as the Aquitaine class, while in Italy it is known as the Bergamini class .
The 127mm gun of the Italian FREMM GP can also fire Vulcano long-range guided shells (currently 80km, 120km with the incoming block C), turning it into a further anti-ship / land missile launcher.
It can be adapted to use laser-guided shells. That gun is a masterpiece of military art.
Anti ship missiles also differ, with the French opting for the lighter and less expensive Exocet, side by side with the Scalp cruise missile, while Italy opted for the Teseo 2, which is heavier and has a longer range, able to hit ground target at the same time, plus the Vulcano guided ammunitions on the 127mm.
2 FREMM GP+ have been launched by Italy The Emilio Bianchi (F598) and the Spartaco Schergat (F599) after selling the previous 2 (with the same names) to Egypt. These are GP version with a complete ASW suit, making them probably the best so far.
Two more named FREMM Evo are under design, with the same bridge and radar suit of the PPA Thaon di Revell in the "Full configuration", 16 Aster 30 and probably another 16 Sliver launch wells dedicated to CAMM ER multiple launchers, massively increasing the available missiles on board, due to the experience with both Ukraine and the Red Sea scenary. The anti ship suit will also be improved with the Teseo 2 NG and subsequently the new multi purpose cruise missile. Both the EVO frigates were already funded by the Italian Parliament in 2023.
The Exocet MM40 block 3C that equips the French Fremm has a longer range than the teseo 2, is more modern, and can also hit land targets. The Bergamini class is only equipped with 16 vls: aster 15.
The Aquitaine class is equipped with 32 vls: 16 aster (15 or 30 depending on the ships) and 16 MDCN long range cruise missiles (>1000kms).
Every French Fremm is ASW, not every Bergamini is.
They are two kind of ships for two different nations with different purposes. The Italians only operate in the Mediterranean and thus the 127mm gun is a good option for land attack, the French operate worldwide and the MDCN is more appropriate.
@@brunol-p_g8800The Teseo Mk2Evo is more modern that the Exocet (it’s entering service soon) and the 16 vls cells have aster 15 and 30 not only 15 (like you said). And also the italian navy operates also outside mediterranean think to houthi in the red sea. So if you don’t know things don’t comment saying bullshit. I’m not french and I don’t comment saying things about the french navy that I don’t know.
So you should do.
Thanks
@@brunol-p_g8800 i don't believe in "this is better then that" , unless age and generational upgrades apply.
I still believe France cheeped out a bit too much in the design, and then wasted all the saving building too few ships.
Both ship classes are going into MLU cycles soon and then things are going to change further. I think the CAMM-ER upgrade could be a game changer, especially with another 16 cell launcher on both ships, Bergamini and Aquitaine, as they are lacking in endurance when it comes to AA support.
The CAMM-ER is less expensive then the Aster 15 and hosts at least 3 missiles for each launchers instead of one. Currently the Bergamini class only carries Aster 30 anyway and only France uses the ASTER 15, a version that should be phased out, as, while the ASTER 30 is capable and justifies it size in the launcher with range and anti Ballistic Missile capabilities, the 15 version is too limited for what it costs and taking a full Sliver launcher!
Another problem (AA wise) with France is that the Sliver 70 launchers exists only on 2 ships (Alsace and Loraine) currently filling those Slivers with SCALP cruise missiles, so it contributes nothing to the air defence.
Because the SCALP is a powerfull long range weapon, the Exocet is NOT used for ground attack and obviously, the last generation Exocet has to be compared to its equivalent in the Teseo line. Both will be superseeded by the next Gen multi role cruise weapon under development by MBDA.
My point is that Italy uses a heavier warhead on the Teseo (much heavier, to the point that no AS version is possible), because Italy does not uses SCALP on the Bergamini, and that's why there are no Sliver 70 on the Italian Ships.
Both ship classes need an upgrade, badly: if the Red Sea mission taught anything is that you cannot use expensive ASTER to bring down cheap drones, or the drone will get the kill over the missile. 16 missiles is not nearly enough to fend off saturation attacks, providing a 600M Euros juicy target for 400K Euros worth of drones launched (18).
The CAMM-ER has been selected by Italy and the UK: I don't know what France will chose, but even an ASRAAM based missile is too expensive and too limited in numbers. For that role I guess specifics AA shells could be designed for the 127mm gun, able to kill hostiles at longer distance, with the 76mm covering the shorter range bauble and the point defence system as last resort.
This is not just a FREMM problem: American destroyers and frigates will suffer the same limitations, even more, as the Constellation dropped the long range 76mm for a much less effective, at range, 57mm gun. At least the type 41 launchers of the USN can carry several standard missiles instead of just one but the cost effectiveness problem remain. It is not about just having spare missiles in stock, but rather about logistics and the need to refill those launchers, which is almost impossible to do at sea.
The Sylver A70 VLS, for Scalp Naval cruise missiles, is only installed on the 6 ASW Aquitaine Class.
The Air Defence FREMM (Alsace sub-class) has only A50 VLS with 32 cells to host a variable mix of Aster 15 and 30 (the 15 is necessary to provide close range air defence, as the Aster 30 has a minimal range). The Horizon class also have 32 Sylver A50 cells for their Aster 30, plus 16 A43 for their Aster 15. The future french "FDI" also has A50 VLS cells.
the Italian Bergamini class of the FREMM product line is the best of all other FREMM variants operated by other European navies . . .
I'm French and I think Italian version is stronger, we wanted a cheap version.
The best are the ones built by FINCANTIERI...
While the Fremm may be newer, she is not really better than the German Sachsen class or the Dutch 7-provincien class. The latter has ABM tracking capabilities (not yet ABM missiles)...
The Fremm does have better anti-ship capabilities as the Harpoon is pretty outdated but not yet replaced by Germany or the Netherlands.
These are different ships for different requirements.
First of all, the FREMM is a 100% European program in all its components, meaning sales cannot be vetoed by the USA.
Another factor is that both ships were built to work in extensive fleets compared to the German and Dutch counterparts: this means that their weapon systems perfectly merge with carriers and destroyers in the same fleet, sharing data and missile guidance systems. The F110 from Spain is the closer ship currently in service, but is technically a Spanish Hull with a complete US navy components on board, like a smaller Arleigh Bourke. The fact that a FREMM was chosen by the USN for the Constellation program should hint to something there.
The type 42 from the UK is interesting but is conceived with a heavy ASW bias, as the Type 45 is their main AA platform, meaning the FREMM is much more flexible.
The French FREMMs have proven to be very successful against Ballistic missiles in the Red Sea.
I think FREMM are better
And the French FDI even better
NSM is coming to the Netherlands. First batch is currently being built into the older frigates and the Tromp class systems is going into the new frigates when they are decommissioned.
And we received the first ABM missile for testing this year. They will be in the new frigates. And the new generation of Tomahawk is also in the books.
Ahora me quedo claro las diferencias entre ambas fragatas
the italian one, more tons, more knots, Vulcano long-range guided shells system
You call them frigates, but the French ones carry a "Dxxx" NATO hull number as destroyers (unlike the Italian ones and most comparable European ships, and despite being called locally "frégates" because we don't use the word "destroyer"). It's a bit confusing...
It's only a nominative thing. To say the new Italian PPA (Ofshore Patrol Vessel) it is way more heavily armed than any French or Italian destroyer, but the facto is a light frigate categorized as Offshore Patrol Vessel, due political reason.
Our destroyers "Dxxx" (like the Fremm) are called "frégate de 1er rang" in French (1rst rank frigate). "Fxxx" are called "frégate" (frigate)
So, it costs about £10 billion to develop a modern fighter. I wonder how much it costs to develop a modern frigate design? I would guess about £500 million, including a combat system.
According to costs, and not considering the two incoming EVO version from Italy, the price is around 600 millions per ship, Italy having more expensive versions but optimized by doubling the numbers comparing to France.
These are extremely expensive ships, both France and Italy having cheaper and sliglty sidestepping (Italy) versions with their FDI and PPA frigades
No.....
which is Indonesia's choice,
FREMM
Did they choose FREMM
I thought that they were close to FDI
Fremm bergamini with 32-48 Cell VLS 👍
That’s nowhere near enough VLS capacity, for a large modern surface combatant.
Dude it's a Frigate, it's solely role is escorting the fleet and searching for enemy submarines, plus doing support in AAW or ASUW. It's not a Destroyer or higher.
And then there is the US Constellation class version of FREMM. Commonality: 0%
The US Navy has screwed up the USS Constellation implication. Already well behind on schedule and twisted the design to a point it’s all screwed up.
At least the French CAPTAS-4.
It is already going out of hand, budget wise: in the last 10 years the USN seems incapable to create any functional design and stick to it, everybody scrambling to change, modify and revise everything already agreed upon.
The CODAG propulsion system itself has been a disaster: the USN never having built one before (while common in Europe), and yet insisting to start its own design from scratch. Apparently each Constellation already exceed 900 Millions per ship and rising, while a Bergamini+ currently costs 600M.
@@NoOne2367216 they’re not xenophobic and have plenty of foreign companies. You just have to build it in the US. Same as any country would do.
And modifying everything after contract awarded is typical. Looks cheap to Congress and then they make it expensive afterwards. Congress should cancel the ship.
@@NoOne2367216 Yes, I know they will build it in the US. Thats good so they get new building technologies from Europe. But because of the changes, its very expensive and I don't understand how they get away with this.
Italian fremm more fire power
Wrong
@@anonymos59
No. Corretto!!
no long-range missile for the Italian version
Italian navy FREMM 9 and 10 have a new configuration, they have GP features + the ASW suite (Captas 4 towed sonar) and othe enhancements.
FREMM 11 and 12 will be "EVO" version, with fixed face radars in band C and X and other new equipment. It is said that a little bit longer than current design.
The Bergamini class have less VLS cells cause they have 76mm Strales or 127mm Vulcano Laser/IR/GPS guided ammos and shells (so less missile useless waste for precision target, so less missile required to shoot down light-medium targets, so saving costs).
Also the Bergamini clas have two TRIPLE Mu90 Torpedo launcer, the Aquitaine class have two DOUBLE Mu90 Torpedo launcer. The Bergamini is better also on that.
Actually, the space for the second Sliver cell block is currently used for crewmembers living space. It can be installed without gutting the ship through.
Befire Ukraine, 16 cells were demmed enough and even the two French FREMM that have the Sliver 70 installed use it for Scalp missiles and not Asters. I expect things to change after the mission in the red Sea, as soon as the first MLU cycle will go underway.
@@Leptospirosi Yep, but for now aren't necessary for the purpose the Italian navy have, maintain the control of the Med.
It will turn useful in near future terms for the geopolitical plan of the "Mediterraneo Allargato".
The idea was to adopt the FREMM Bergamini for the USN Constellation-class to quickly get hulls in the water. Instead USN has changed everything exploding the cost and delivery times; what happened USN? You used to be able to build ships! After the LCS and Zum I think a few admirals need to be shit-canned.
Negara kita sudah kontrak deal tinggal membangun kapal fregat fremm ini buatan fikanteri italia
Anda salah, Indonesia saat ini belum memiliki kontrak efektif apapun terkait FREMM bergamini. Jika yang anda katakan adalah deal kontrak PPA thaon di revel untuk Indonesia maka anda benar
👍👍
On the French version, the land attack missile is the MDCN, isn’t it?
And the French have 16 of them plus 16 aster 30 on the most modern of their frigates. In addition, every French frigate has a towed array sonar. But the italians have such sonars on only 6 of their frigates and only 16aster 30 (no mdcn). However, they can carry 2 helicopters, they have a bigger possibility of evolution and anti-ship missiles that can strike ashore targets…
The Exocet MM40 block 3C carried by the French Fremm also strike land targets.
Cool 👍👍
@@brunol-p_g8800 nice, I didn’t know that
Thanks!
@@brunol-p_g8800 according to you guys in the comments, which one is the best?
The horizon class are destroyer not a frigate
The NATO name is indeed destroyer. In France we speak of a frigate, but on the registration it is indeed a D and not an F.
France call it's ships "first class and second class frigades" in the end "Destroyer" is an old concept as there are no more torpedo boat hunt and destroy. The Duilio class is classified as a "destroyer", displacing about 7700 tons. The Marcantonio Colonna (Fremm+) is very close to 7000 tons and is classified "Frigade". The 10000 ton Aleigh Bourke is classified as "Destroyer", whille the F125 from Germany is classified "Frigade", displacing 9900tons.
In the end, naming means very little.
@@Leptospirosi In France there were other class names for ships (WWII).
The "torpilleur" (torpedo boat?) and the "contre-torpilleur" (destroyer).
The torpilleur was small, around 600 tx where the "contre-torpilleur" had around 2600 tx, the "contre-torpilleur" is the equivalent of the destroyer.
During WWII France had no ships named frigate (apart from a flower class). The mame frigate came back to France after WWII instead of destroyer.
Italian of course!
Can you make a detailed analysis about the Sejong the Great Destroyer of South Korea😊
El diseño de la fragata italiana es mejor.
The design is the same.
Only the radar is different and the armament
Ahora me quedo claro las diferencias entre ambas fragatas
ご注文は？フレンチですか？それともイタリアン？
*Laughs in Type 26 Frigate* Okay everybody, Type 26 is British, do those 72 VLS cells a favour (and it is "favour and favourite, not favor and favourite") and it is "defence" not "defense" and don't use the american misspellings
The French fremms have small defects, in fact Egypt that had bought a French fremm abandoned the French ones buying the Italian ones because they are better built and more versatile Morocco Who bought French fremms with small defects and is considering switching to Italian fremms
I know it's silly, but just imagine if we make a modern FREMM-based battleship today.
Jesus what beast it would be. 🤣🤣🤣
Their both weak. Type 26 has 24 MK41 VLS that can be quad packed with Sea Ceptor. It also has 48 dedicated Sea Ceptor VLS. It radar is an AESA derived from SAMSON MFR technology. It has the best ASW capability in Europe even better then the Type 23 frigate.
I can see how this debate will go...
"The French FREMM is better, because in the galley, they serve French food."
"No, the Italian FREMM is better because in the gallery, they serve Italian food."
Soon FREMMs are throwing missiles at each other.
Missiles? No. Baguettes and pizzas, YES!
We dont fight with our Italian cousins over food, we take inspiration
US should purchase some of these ships! US’s shipyards are in deep down with backlogged orders as well as some of them need some major overhaul shipyard’s hardwares.
The USN has agreed with Fincanteireri to build the Constellation class frigate.
@@keithgainey7853 is it meeting the demand? We need more ships like now….
@@keithdoane The contract signed but unfortunately the building has started slow. I agree with you the ships are needed sooner than later. We need more shipyards or to start commissioning Allies like Italy and South Korea to build ships for us .
@@keithgainey7853 just a question how buy a Ferari for costumize it like a scrap Buick?
Chosen by the Us Navy as basis..
Italian
There are more than 900 tons of diffetence between US/ITALIAN amd French...
FREMM incaran TNI AL Indonesian 🙏🇮🇩
There are not destroyers in Europe,only frigates.
Rubbish the UK Type 26 is the-best European frigate and has won several international contests against the French/Italian design. The T26 won both the Canadian and Australian frigate contests. The UK T26 is a better ASW platform and formidable anti-surface and anti-air abilities. Two are currently fitting out prior to commissioning. The French/Italian ships are older designs and less flexible.
French and Italian ships are no older and no less flexible.
The future type 26 frigate will by no means be the best frigate in Europe.
Let's hope it doesn't end up like the Type 23 and Type 45, often in port with problems.
The French FDI frigate is a state-of-the-art frigate with excellent sensors.
The best anti-submarine frigates are French.
The frigate with the most armaments for attacking and defence
France or Italy?
Indo be like: Why not both?
fishing boat
If they choose both, then it's gonna be the most stupid decision ever
Because they are different versions of
Fremm is ok but too expensive
600 millions is average for what they do: similar ships, like the F110 and the Type 42 cost about the same.
The constellation program is the usual USN mess, with everyone scrambling to modify, change and replace everything depending to who is lobbying more.
900 millions price tag is the minimum you can expect, given the program is at prototype stage.
By adopting the original CODAG power plant instead of a completely new one form a nation that has no experience with those, prices could have been contained to a more reasonable figures.
Think about the Zumwalt and the LCA program and you'll see where my statements are coming from.
YES!
French FREMM are stealthier both against radars and sonar. They're better ASW platforms, which is their initial role. Then, some got either Land attack capabilities or increased air defense capabilities. But their primary focus is to defend the carrier against submarines. The air wing can deal with air targets. Meanwhile italians don't have a carrier as capable. They also have smaller crews. It allows French navy to have 2 crews for each boat. It allows French FREMM to be at see more than 160 days a year, meanwhile the "better" italian frigates are harbour queens.
🤷♂️
It's probably not the best in the world, in Asia there are rivals of the same level, it's certainly a well made ship
Depends on the wine list.
French
They have different radars.
More economic low range radar, as video showed.
@@solinvictus1234 inaccurate
@@anonymos59 Very accurate.
@@solinvictus1234 low resolution, same range
@@mariosebastiani3214 Having a radar with lower resolution it mean that at medium-long distances the radar can't distinguish if two target are the same thing or two different things, that is a pretty important info to know when something is directed thowards you.
So as i said, more economic, less performances
1:08 « the French Fremm is relatively average.. » Sorry?!
The French Fremm (both ASW and AA variants) is considered and recognised as the West’s best ASW frigate, holds the Hook’em award two years in a row, is combat proven both on land attack (MDCN in North Africa) and air defense ( against cruise missiles, ballistic missiles snd drones in the Red Sea).
While the Italian version is less armed in missile capacity (less VLS, no cruise missiles and only Aster 15), has never seen combat and is yet to be proven…
6:15: once again making up stuff you have no idea about..
7:08: only the first two ASW Fremm have a43, the others have a50 with a mix of both aster 30 and 15 or only aster 30, plus a70 with MDCN.
None of the Bergamini have a70..
8:38: okay now you’re just making stuff up and lying…
I’ll stop here or I’d have to correct every single minute of the video, so many things said are wrong or just made up…
9:02: it’s the contrary, the Bergamini class air defence is inferior to the Aquitaine, now you’re contradicting yourself…
You’re either ignorant, either making stuff up to give an advantage to the disadvantaged Bergamini…
The italian Bergamini ASW use the same towed and hull sonar as the french FREMM.
The italian ones has the advantage that they can carry two helicopters that allows a longer deployment in subs hunting.
French and italian units were designed fir different deployment roles. Just look a crew numbers.
The Bergamini GP an area defence role for others ships. Italian FREMM are fadter ships since the have a different propulsion tranfer system. French units have a maximum speed of about 37 km, italian units have a maximum.speed of about 31 kn.
Different roles, different configuratipns.
Considered the best west ASW frigate by who...French?
@@solinvictus1234 USA, they are the ones who deliver the Hook’em award
.The French navy has problems, but it has been recognized for many years for its expertise in ASW.
@@solinvictus1234 the US Navy.
@@joriss5 The US Navy chosen the Italian ASW version, so nope.
In your opinion, which one do you buy in Indonesia?
dengan catatan: politik indo stabil, ekonomi tumbuh 5/6%, kabinet Prabowo di isi orang yang satset.
feeling saya sih indo akuisisi PPA thaon di revel dulu, dengan catatan konfigurasi full dan bisa di anter secepatnya. nah italy bisa sanggupi tuntutan ini ga? untuk kelas fremm kayaknya nunggu atau kalau bisa PAL di ajak untuk pengembangan bersama fremm Evo. karena harus di akui fremm bergamini class itu serba tanggung sih dari segi kemampuan dan vls yg di bawa, punya italia di peruntukkan untuk main² di kawasan laut Mediterania, beda jauh sm fremm prancis yg memang untuk ocean going. tapi kalau ambil semua dari Prancis, (Dassault, Naval group) yang ada hubungan sama negara eropa selain Perancis jadi buruk. disini justru pihak italia lah yg harus mau turunkan ego kalau masih mau kerjasama, setau yg saya denger barang yg di tawarkan fincantieri itu harga selangit tapi kemampuan tanggung.
Both
@@bimantaraadityawarman1734Kalau untuk frigate ga ada kata tanggung bang. Sudah jelas itu FREMM bergamini fokusnya untuk anti submarine warfare. Bisa dibilang frigate ASW terbaik di Eropa untuk saat ini. Kalau ga mau nyari yang nanggung ya belinya destroyer, semua aspek role nya terpenuhi dengan baik di kelas destroyer. jangan cari frigate 😂😂😂
FDI
For Indonesia, the current Bergamini GP+ is the best IMO: Idonesia does not have specific nieche for its frigate and the GP is the most flexible for sea control.
This been said, given the time that the program will require, I'd rather wait for the new FREMM EVO now in design: Indonesia just acquired two Thaon di Revell and the new Fremm will have an almost identical setup for radar and pilot seats. All the systems will be almost identical, which is logystically sounding.
Another option would be to buy more, cheaper and flexible PPI, as ships of that class will be in service anyway. This means crews will be interchangeable and two separate logystic chains will not be required. Indonesia needs IMO as many ships as it can afford due the the size of the nation, and not being directly in a potential war hotspot, the Revell class will offer more flexibility in peace time for disaster relief and troop deployment. It is also less expensive, especially to operate, has very decent defensive capabilities, plus a higher speed, with the same fuel consumption, and space for dedicated standard containers to deploy where needed.
The PPA full version has very decent ASW capabilities and good AA protection, with the ability to act for pirate control missions and trafic lane protection thank to its speed and good anti ship armament.
The FDI or the Mogami all could work, but they are, relatively speaking, cheaper and less capable FREMMs, without much added value at what FREMMs are not very good at. Missile choice is up to Indonesia as this generation of Kronos radar can easily adapt Aster, CAMM-ER, MICA, Exocet, Teseo, Scalp, and newer missiles from MBDA.
I chose France for AAW, with 48 cell vls more better then china Frigate 054A.
It's a shame with that so many vls cell paired with much more inferior radar than the bergamini which is designed for asw 😂
I will chose the Italian one with 16 VLS cells but with 76mm Laser/IR guided ammos at the back and a 127mm cannon at the front with Vulcano GPS guided shells (basically minimissile without engine).
So i could use missiles when i really need it and don't waste them (cause they cost a lot), using the 76mm guided ammo to strike drones or fighters jet and then using the 127 cannons with GPS guided shells to sunk huge ships and land attack. And i will spent 10 time less money that a French variant would cost me.
Several French FREMMs are capable of destroying targets over 1000 km away.
So the comparison with the 127 MM gun is meaningless.
Tawaran Kapal Fregat FDI Belhara jauh lebih menarik dan lebih kapabel serta teknologi ada Unsur TOT dengan produksi 48 bulan
Great video mate.
and the french make war around the planet everyday, while the italians with thier POWERFULLLLLLLLLLLL frigates are partying everyday, lol
take a moment away from the bottle of wine and start getting serious...
French makes what? ahahahah the French less than one year ago goes on their knees and crying to the Italians to asking help in Niger and Sahel. A thing that italians unluckily conceded (the French was crying too loud to not help them).
Italy are partying everyday as Germany cause their post WWII military limitations, not cause they like to partying.
@@solinvictus1234 Pizza delivery in niger ?? lmao
@@RaySqw785 Also cause you wasn't even able to do that. And the facts that you have zero argumentation to debate me say everything.
Now return to eat your baguette in your chamber corner, thanks.
Same name for keep money frpm EU....