I don't know if you have made these, but I'd love a video for each elemental type. Osiris had those containers with each element in them and gave a simple description. I'd love a deep dive into all 5 elements.
Look up the red war campaign. When the story has us reclaim each subclass from the shard of the traveler in the EDZ we get a ton of disembodied dialogue explaining and exploring each element through the lens of various users
I’ve always felt Savathūn’s darkness powers being related to strand would’ve made a lot of sense. Especially given the whole web theme she specifically has, and her emphasis on seeing the unseen.
I don’t really feel like strand fits savathun. She’s never seemed like one to relinquish control in any meaningful way, given her role as an entity of lies and manipulation
this way it kind of makes sense how savathun is so cunning and why she's damn near omnipotent. if she's mastered strand, she's able to use it to "observe" all of everything because of how strand is supposedly an omnipresent construct that connects everything
I love the idea of Strand being a way for us to "pluck" or "play" the strings of the universe like an instrument. It very much is an element of flow, of letting go of oneself to join the harmony of the universe... and to turn that harmony into a chord of outward force, something that resonates with all around us. Hmmm, resonate...
Whilst it is still debated on what ability Savathun used on Nezarec when she killed him, I think it’s important to remember that it was also Savathun whom taught Oryx’s daughters “ The Weaver and The Unraveler “. This suggests that she may indeed have made her betrayal long before we even realized it. That she had already killed Nezarec, whisked away and hidden the veil all the while learning strand and teaching it to Iruk and Anur but in a hive magic copycat/mimicry fashion. If it is not mimicry and is indeed strand then the lore from Bad Ju Ju stands true about them already knowing our past present and future or at least Savathun does at least. This all falls in line in The Book of Sorrows lore which in a particular segment gives way to “ Savathun having learned a great secret and then deciding to part ways so that they might grow different. “ There is alot to think about the implications here 🤔 Folks you best keep your thoughts and feelings on guard at all times💀
I really enjoy how Bungie is developing the concepts of the "Darkness". It's a very interesting path and not one I would have expected, given how this whole story started back in D1 with good guy light bearers and evil guy darkness worshipers.
@@Moncrom Yea... I mean... erhmm... there is a reason the path they're on goes over so well with the community... right? I mean... it's almost like the seeds of it were planted there... deliberately? Nah... I MUST just be imagining it... In all seriousness, they can have all the ancient lore they want. My comment referenced specifically the in game content and the storylines surrounding it. The Vanguard were good guys, the Hive and everyone other than the Awoken were bad guys. The Awoken were neutral as were any "bad" or "good" guys that aligned with them. It was all very distinct shades of white, grey, and black. Now it's much more complex, and this is not a story they HAD to tell. They could have kept with the evil enemies and the pure good guys. But they chose to make it more complex and, that inevitably makes it more interesting.
@@ahawkone8850 The story was supposed to be like that allready in D1. Warlords were allready a thing back there. They just had to remove a lot of it due to legal issues.
I guess each of our Strand Supers could be considered a representation of each of the Greek Fates: Warlocks create the threads Hunters pull and extend them And Titans Cut them
The talk of fate reminds me of the old phrase "Guardians make their own fate". In the concept of strand and the veil and Greek mythos regarding fate, what if the veil is the loom. The witness manipulated the loom to control their own fate to allow them to take the traveller.
Stand being all about connections reminds me of some old hive lore (maybe books of sorrow, or the oryx part of marasenna, idk) that describes the hive reverence for the concept of a sword, and how a sword is a bridge between the weilder and the victim. Maybe the hive, as adherents of darkness, were beginning to grasp or at least describe the basics of strand here, in unsurprising the most violent way possible
I think it’s really interesting that we are just now defining the nature of the light and dark. This is confirmation of some really old ideas because despite our confusion surrounding this, I was rewatching the book of sorrow lore vids and realised that we were literally given the answer back then. The Leviathan states that the krill are on the edge of a war between form and formless, and that they need to go back up instead of going further down to the deep where the worm gods rest. But the fact that it states that the light and dark are form and formless all the way back during the taken king is crazy to me.
As someone who's been on a recent Cosmere tear, that whole scene with Nimbus and Osiris was giving me big "Realmatic Theory" vibes... For the uninformed, in Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere series, Realmatic Theory is the in-universe study of the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual Realms and how they interact and intersect with each other. As a rule of thumb all forms of Magic tend to be more rooted in one Realm over the other two, but anything that affects one Realm will have trickle down effects in the others. Going by that, Light mainly acts in the Physical, Darkness in the Cognitive, and both are able to act in a lesser degree on the Spiritual.
Parts of how you describe strand and "flowing with the river" to wield it reminded me of the Stormdancer's Brace lore entry. Which describes wielding the Stormtrance as noting that the "storm is so much bigger than you. So much more than you can control".
good call out! missed that one myself. kinda puts strand as the darkness version of arc, at least in the sense of how its weilded. not as something you control, but as a force you simply act as a conduit for. something that you flow with as much as it flows through you; less controlled by our will and more directed by it. you dont tell the storm where to strike, likewise you cannot command the weave to obey. you simply embrace both, plucking small threads and sparks into your advantage as they appear in the right place and time
Blame the retcon. Honestly, before the "Darkness is about mind stuff from here on" pivot, reading about strand would lead one to believe that it's a Light power. Further, it has so many connections (even that word... connection) to Arc lore that it could be indistinguishable.
Mastery over strand has a lot in common with Taoism. In taoism enlightenment is achieved by understanding one’s place in the universe and by living in harmony with all of it. In this sense it is just like flowing with the river. Also the thought of threadlings giving you mental presence in multiple places is wild.
id love to see destiny do a narrative dive into the civilian applications of light and dark. they do mention that theres a secret colony somewhere out there of pacifist lightbearers. a place that lady effrideet 'retired' to.
@@Skywatcher16 i was hoping to find efrideet in neumona just for that reason as an excuse to not spill the beans about the apparently successful colony in Neptune to protect the city and the traveler. Kept in secret. And the Neumona people also seem to be pacifist, a veil to their actual fact that they are hiding the key to win this. This is also a trope used that monasteries, since respected by the public eye also was a veil to hide things from said public too, and also away from society. Dispute or not, it has that essence. When Neptune was revealed, these were my first thoughts.
Before I knew the specific lore about Strand, I thought it looked like Hive magic. Not only due to the hue, but also to the specific ability of threadlings, as they look like worms. Usually one doesn't hear about worms in Destiny, and when one does, it's connected to the Hive. It makes me wonder even more what having Hive Guardians might be like. Could we learn their magics? And how would their culture and technology impact humanity.
Stasis isn’t ice it’s literally what it says it is it’s stasis. Frozen but not cold. Kinetically locked. Stasis is the lack of energy causing molecules to become uniform.
Love the focus on some of the more basic aspects of destiny, I would also like to see a video for the other elements too. Some thing I feel that has been lost in the transition to Destiny 2 is the lore about the light and dark itself, also how each class interprets each power. I always thought it was cool that the void was seen as a sort of "place" that if you stay in too long can corrupt people, like how they talk about Nightstalkers going rogue in the class mission in D1. I hope bungie focuses more on giving each class more lore and explaining how they see their powers.
The cutscene with Osiris and Nimbus discussing the Light and Dark, and the river of souls, is really important and provides a lot of valuable insight. That's probably a huge part of why the Lightfall campaign left a bad taste in my mouth, since that cutscene bugged out and didn't play at all for me and my friends I was playing it with the day Lightfall dropped.
You know, watching this, it came to me; I feel like a simple way of introducing strand the first time, and howbwe could see it, should of had us use Deepsight.
@@Vikrampic123 It's my headcanon. And if it's the intention, it should have been made more clear. At least have me cast Deepsight the first time we find strand you know?
@@DreamingGod05 or it could be we’ve gotten so good at using it that we do it unconsciously. I feel as if this is bungie’s chance to give our character an actual backstory. Seeing as deepsight can even reveal character’s previous lives. They can make a create a story for us even. Which would be interesting to see how we died just right outside the city
Well the rumor was strand was originally going to be introduced in witch queen so maybe you're onto something. It seems like they had a rebrand of sorts with Lightfall. Like in the marketing at first it was all dark and mysterious. Then later on Lightfall marketing became bright and vibrant neon that we see now. Not sure why they didn't keep strand with witch queen if it's true. Maybe wanted to combine Lightfalls original story with final shape so they turned Lightfall into filler because let's be honest that what it feels like
I kinda feel like Strand is "good" Darkness, while Void is "bad" Light. Stasis and Solar are more "pure" examples of Dark and Light respectively, and Arc and the unnamed "third" Darkness subclass/energy are adjacent to Strand and Void respectively.
Why do you feel that the void is "bad" light? Also, why do you feel that strand is a "good" form of darkness? Personally, I feel the whole idea of classifying elements into good or bad in regards to the power of manifestation as pointless, the elements do not possesses innate goodness or badness to them. After all, it is the person wielding the element that dictates whether the element is a force of good or bad.
@@nobodyscomment929 Yea I get why you would say this. But honestly, it's just the vibe I get based on Bungie's portrayal of these things so far. Like Nezarec using void and just the design of it overall (devour for instance), and Strand's whole "go with the flow, river of souls, threads of life" thing.
Same line of thinking. Arc and Solar put out energy (heat building up in enemies and exploding out via ignition while electricity arcs and conducts through enemy and players like a circuit) but Void pulls and takes away, breaking down volatile matter and turning it into energy. Very darkness-like for a light element.
In lore, the Void is considered to be absent of both light and darkness and, as such, is indifferent to who wields its power. Also, the method to which guardians can use Strand and Void is similar in that both require you to relinquish control. For Strand, you simply relinquish control and allow yourself to flow with the Weave, whereas with Void, you open yourself up to the void and allow its energy to flow into you. Also, both of them kind of have messed up abilities, with Void its devour, with Strand its Sever. One allows you to feast on the very life of your enemy, whereas the other allows you to separate your enemies' intrinsic connection with all things and should they die, have their remaining life force converted into a bundle of tangled strands.
I have an thoughts about Darkness. Stasis is like we're freezing Time around our enemies. Strand is like we're weaving Space to tangle & sever our enemies. If we ever get a third darkness subclass then i assume it would make us wield something that is all about Dimension.
it is possible, with how the witness opened the portal within the Traveller, and how the witness shows himself to Calus in multiple times by bending and shattering the environment around, it can give us an idea of a possible new power like you described, Dimension.
I hope we get Resonance from it. I remember reading about how resonance as a physics phenomenon is sort of heavily related to a mechanic of quantum physics.
I think it's because I was a Fate fan. But I immediately realized what they meant after that conversation between Osiris and Nimbus. At least, right now, I think of darkness as the collective unconscious of all beings, in a way. All things are connected to this place and controlling it IS impossible because that collective will fight back against anything that it deems a threat.
Byf, I'm quite surprised in your "Did Savathun kill Nezarec with Strand" video, you never seemed to explore the most interesting option. You kept saying "Maybe she used Strand" and "Maybe it was just Soulfire" but never explored the following: *What if Strand IS pure, uncontrolled, undiluted Hive Soulfire?* (Soulfire is the Lore-Accurate name for Poison) We know that the Witness uses its will to twist, warp, and mutate Paracausal energies to its will. We saw this with the Pyramid Ships giving Stasis to us, it was so dangerous because Stasis was a power that had been subjugated by the Witness's control. Strand, however, had not been. Strand is a free-flowing, Universal Power. I think the Witness could not successfully grasp Strand, so it had the Worm Gods harness and reshape it into Hive Soulfire, granting it to the hive in a trickle-down effect. This is how the Worm Gods granted power to the Hive. Always is a corrupted, diluted manor, never directly at the source. This is why Oryx had to kill Akka to fully gain the power of Taking. So thats my theory. Soulfire is a Worm God-Corrupted version of Strand because the forces of the Witness can not weild it at its most powerful form, because they cant learn to flow with the river!
Some points to add to yours: The Scarlet Hive used their magic to literally rip souls out and put them into different bodies. That screams "psychic threads" for sure. In the Strand Lore book, it's specifically stated that the way Strand manifests for us is not the same as it would be for someone else. For the people of Neomuna, it would likely appear as a river. Perhaps to the Hive, it manifests as Soulfire. And just an interesting note, the flavor text for Verity's Brow is "The Hive do not see how we see. They look beyond, into the infinite. Into the dark." Something to think about.
@@michaelchesnut865 also. Let's not forget that Oryx daughters literally tear the thread of reality apart to reshape it into whatever Oryx wishes. That screams strand to me. I am definatly a supporter of the "hive soulfire being a less pure and/or optimized version of strand" theory until it's prove to be false or doesn't make sense anymore
The more & more of these lore videos and theories come out, the more I am CONVINCED that I was right when I said that Bungie was VERY intentional with making aspects of Lightfall a mystery. A LARGE percent of the player base problem, was they wanted ALL the answers within the 1st 72 hours of the Lightfall launch.... and when they didn't get it, suddenly the story is "bad". No, the story is over their heads until it becomes more clear. I LOVE the direction that the story is taking, it COMPLETELY removes the predictability factor, and the "know-it-alls" can't stand it. 😂😂😂
@@Loderyod stagnation, denial, a frozen low effort way of looking at the world Where nothing changes, nor can it change. Crystalized in a single moment of memory.
This, specifically, is why I think the Veil is the Traveler's "brain". If it's the source or physical medium of something like the Traveler's consciousness, then it would explain why Ghost has the same feeling from the two, and why Rasputin said it was deeply tied to the Traveler WHILE ALSO being an incredibly powerful Darkness artifact. It would also explain why being near it would reveal Strand as a byproduct (a consciousness as powerful as the Traveler's would be an obvious hotspot, and Strand being compared to a paracausal magnetic superposition byproduct being like brain waves and electrical signals in our own brains), how it could be used to create a digital universe for the CloudArk (using a godlike brain for processing power, not just as a power supply), and why the Witness needs it to access the Traveler (the Darkness is the domain of the immaterial, emotions, memories. If it's tapping into its mind and able to then create the link between the mind and body of the Traveler, which is the major source of Light in the universe, which is also connected across space and time, then the portal the Witness made being compared to a wormhole makes perfect sense.)
nope. the traveler and “the light” is based purely around the physical, whereas darkness surrounds consciousness. bungie wouldn’t flip the script this far into the narrative (this is literally told in the cutscene, which is in the video???) i think it’s easier to look at as an artifact of darkness, or at most a combination of the two, like the distributary - definitely not the brain, or heart, or testicle, of the traveler.
@beaniefaust ... so, did you just not read the points I made to back up my idea?... You know what, I have three questions for you: Do you not remember that the Light and the Traveler are confirmed to be intimately connected but for sure separate things, since as far back as Vow of the Disciple? Going from your logic, do you honestly believe the Traveler isn't conscious despite the lore clearly showing it is? And again, going from your logic, why can we see the Witness doing things when it should be a disembodied consciousness and so not have a physical body?
@@beaniefaust4144 The whole "darkness surrounds consciousness" itself was a flipping of the script dude. That is a relatively new idea which, while it's certainly (and imo unfortunately) cannon now, would have gotten you laughed out of the room a couple years ago. Back then, the closest notion to any of the paracausal forces having a connection to being based in an entities mind or soul was Arc... with the Taken being an example of having such faculties ripped away. Kyle here has a pretty decent theory, and it still fits because "flipping the script" is exactly what Bungie has been doing for a while now. I REALLY wouldn't be surprised if we find out they are taking us down the "Traveler and Witness are really split halves of the same Ancient" route. After Pain-god tea, there is absolutely nothing Bungie can do to subvert my expectations. Can't have your expectations subverted when you know you are dealing with insanity.
@Mur Durmuffin thank you, a ton of people dismiss it out of hand, but the only argument made against it basically boils down to "Traveler = Light, checkmate" It's nice to have a tiny bit of appreciation, even if it doesn't turn out correct.
Looking at the different subclasses I do think it’s probably different ways to master Strand at its individual parts: ie the Titan Berserker is to let go of restraint, cut and sever the strings like Atropos. Hunters Threadrunners are the ones that see the strings and travel and flow with them, not necessarily altering but flowing with it, weaving and spinning the wheels like Clotho. And Warlock Broodweavers being the patternmakers, able to use the threads to create new forms and let those flow on their own, extend themselves and guide their new creations like Lachesis. Also ngl it also feels to me (with a vague understanding of the concept) that Strand could have a connection to the idea of String Theory
If I remember correctly, there was some lore that stated stasis isn't ice, that the crystals aren't physically cold, but more a physical manifestation of something along the lines of stagnation
I dont know how much this applies. but the surface of the Veil that we see in game, as well as the concept art, reminds me a lot of some of the objects and platforms in the Dreaming City and Last Wish raid
Solar: heat Void: free flowing chaotic energy Arc: positive electrical charge Stasis: heat death/cosmic expansion Strand: string theory, super position, cosmic tunneling. Like how atoms can exist it multiple places at once Seems like the light is physical and darkness is fundamental/theoretical physics. Im not an expert but this is how it feels. Deep site seems like time.
Whenever I think of strand I can’t help but think “the elixni” they used to be weavers and I’d love a hidden mission where mythrax or eramis (turned good) or mythrax’s daughter learns to weave and activates strand unknowingly. Have it be that the traveler never abandoned them but they abandoned themselves by forgetting how to weave.
Really into the slowly developing philosophy of Destiny from dualistic viewpoints into the non-duality of strand and the veil. Art follows life, follows art.
I always used to think of our abilities in The Light kinda like Bending (from ATLA), in that The Light is a force that allows us to interact with fundamental forces and I guess that was kinda confirmed as correct. I guess along those lines our abilities in the darkness would be more like The Force (Star wars) in that it involves more connections between things and a need to flow with said forces. I really like how they explain it in game
@@mobiusblitz3470 not trying to talk down because I haven't played Kotor 2 fully (just on the first mission) u can learn lots of kreia through various youtube channels and their videos, the one I recommend the most is the philosophy of kreia by . (That's the channels name) While extremely long is VERY good at explaining not just the jedi and sith but also Kreia's as well. The force actually has attributes of the light and darkness in destiny but its not 1:1.
@@jameskosusnik1102 I think that video is one of the few that crossed my watch list actually. She has interesting theories but I have a problem with removing the Force from the equation.
I would be very interested in a video were u discusse the lore of the other 4 elements with the recent lore from osiris canisters ,maybe also speculate on why the power of the taken and resonance are so different in form but similar in their concept
Stasis and Strand are kind of opposite in line of thinking, though they are both abilities in darkness. Strand focuses on one’s place and relinquish of control, yet the Witness seems to be fighting those ideals. It is this mindset that may explain why stasis is what was given to us by the Witness, as it is the assertion of one’s will onto others or the universe. It’s not my best interpretation I admit.
I was actually surprised he called stasis “cosmic ice” given that it’s not an accurate depiction. Stasis was described as the manifestation of ultimate control over yourself, and your enemy. Stasis’ ability to bind enemies is not exactly via “ice” in the sense that we know it, but an exertion of control over said enemy. It’s just similar to ice and it’s “freezing” property and given the entry where Osiris says the appearance of strand was dictated by the preconceived attributes OUR character placed onto it, I’m inclined to think stasis was likely the same. Stasis was made to appear ice-like due to its properties being extremely similar to ice.
Please look into Hopf Fibrations, every time I watch a video explaining them, they use 3d models that look like tangles. Also they use terminology and verbs pertaining to Stand explaining them.
This actually tells us alot about the veil. Its something that controls fate or is fate itself, the witness is trying to change fate for the darkness. Maybe thats what the final shape is
It's interesting that the darkness power that's all about control is the one the witness guided us to, by possessing our ghost and telling us to seek power on europa in season of arrivals. I can't help but notice that we have yet to hear any accounts of guardians being corrupted by using strand, when this was a seemingly common occurrence when stasis was first introduced to the guardian population. It implies that stasis, as a power that the guardian must exert control over, works both ways and makes it easier for the witness to exert control over the wielder, whereas strand, which rewards "going with the flow", is seemingly immune to the influence of the witness.
Fun fact about Spider-Man. The term Spider-Totem refers to a class of multiversal supernatural entities created by the elder goddess Neith, linked to a mystical force called the Web of Life and Destiny.
the *BEST* Darkness Powers* Titan Subclass ended up being way more fun than i expected, and i've gotten triple-kills frequently with the Warlock Super in the Crucible.
Another thing you could do is look at how each class of Guardian uses the powers of Light and Dark, and how they understand each individual power. Titans employ those powers with blunt force, whether coating themselves in it or forging bludgeoning weapons. Warlocks wield those powers in their rawest state, only rarely forming weapons to direct and guide their attacks. And Hunters shape those powers into precision weapons, often maintaining a specific distance from their opponents.
When Nimbus said “We either sink in the water, or we learn to swim” not too concerning how a certain disciple said “Drown in the deep, or rise from it.” Right?
When Osiris spoke about para causal super-positions, I mostly assumed that strand reaches out to estructures and energies from other dimensions or timelines that are similar to ours and super imposed in the same physical space that we occupy Then, strand is able to pull whatever we can for a moment to OUR physical reality, to be manipulated and used in our physical environment via force of will
Bit of spinfoil here. If Stasis is memory, and Strand is connection, then the third Darkness power would be something like will, morality, or personality. That hints toward Resonance being the next element - adopting The Witness’ power as our own, and using it to defeat them.
Yeah, it's probably gonna be resonance, there are a lot of substantial hints towards that. And resonance being centered around will also makes sense since only the most dedicated disciples could master it. Calus only got it for his last fight (most likely because of fear) and even then it was pretty primitive
aah, yeah resonance sounds about right wouldn't stasis be more about control tho? with it being about shutting things down and such? Strand being memory AND connection?
The problem with this theory is that Resonance is not a Darkness element, it's just pure Darkness energy. This was even confirmed in Nezarec's concept art, which states that the pure Light of the Traveler, the white and blue energy, is called Terraformation while pure Darkness, the black and yellow energy, is called Resonance. This can even be seen in the actual game. All Darkness constructs are filled with the energy and in the cutscene where Eramis gives Phylaks Stasis, the Stasis splinter starts of with a yellow glow before turning into the blue energy of Stasis, representing pure Darkness being turned into an element.
Stasis is about Will and Control, to control one's self and one's enemies, to place one's WILL onto another to make them stop, shatter, or slow. Taken power, from what i've seen, is a corrupted version of stasis, as both use the same Facet of Will and Control
Considering how Bungie has introduced darkness subclasses so far, it’s likely that the next element will be something new, something that revolves around an aspect of the mind that hasn’t been introduced yet. Personally I’d like to see the next element be about imagination and innovation.
this new knowledge of light being a power of the phisical while darkness of the non phisical makes it also clear why guardians don't have memories of their past life: the Traveler was able to bring their phisical body back trought the light but not their memories which are made of darkness
I think a apt desciption for the threadlings are "allies". They manifest in response to the user, rather than being created by the user. Another perspective is that the Threadlings exist in the weave of Strand or collective consciousness. "Our" thoughts collectively allows them to become physical, rather than solely the user.
I wonder what would happen if someone was under the effect of Egrigor and used strand to pull themselves through the connectivity Egrigor seems to posses. Would they travel through space and time using Egrigor as a catalyst.
When Nimbus said: “river of souls”, all I could envision, was the river Styx, and the many other rivers that connect to the underworld. To pass over, and give Charon coins for passage into the afterlife, the unknown. Or to sink and be crushed by the current. I suppose Osiris, until recently, as we’ve seen he has let go of his anger towards Savathun, is now finally ready to take the leap in learning more about Strand. Funny, Graviton Lance is described as, “the needle on reality’s loom”. I can’t help but feel an exotic strand bow would be appropriate: an arrow, as the needle. That connects all lives, to weave all fates. And sever them from the Weave’s threads when possible. It’s a subtle thing. More subtle than the Void or Stasis. I can’t help but wonder.. what the final darkness element will be.
So, this video really helped me to solidify a theory that’s been kicking around in my head for a while regarding Darkness and its subclasses. So far, we haven’t really been able to predict what the subclasses will be. With the Light, we didn’t need to infer. But with the Darkness, at least to me, the subclasses seem to be representing a pattern, but in reverse. Starting with Stasis, we can control the states of objects. Or, Control. With Strand, we can connect ourselves to objects around us. Or, Connection. And with what.. I hope will be our last Darkness subclass.. we reach the start of this chain. I’ll call this “Contact” for now. So, Darkness has a very simple pattern. Contact leads to Connection which leads to Control. This can be seen with a lot of Darkness artifacts and people, such as the Witness quite literally touching the Traveler, discovering and making a connection with it through our Ghost, and controlling the state of it by creating that strange door on it. The Crown of Sorrow, at one point during its time on the Glykon, made contact with the Scorn, connected their minds once again, and controlled and willed them to do the Crown (and the Witness)‘s bidding.
My prediction for the veil. The veil itself is not conscious, but rather is a passage to an afterlife, strands go both ways through it. So it's immense power comes from the untold number of souls whose memories, thoughts, emotion etc (strands) are still threading through the universe, but the connection between (dimensions?) It's very strong around the veil.
I'm going to say it because I'm supprised no one else has said it. The veil is a lens or gateway. Not in the traditional sense, but in a way that allows both light and dark to transcend their respective boundaries and interact with each other in a way that would normally be impossible. Light is the domain of the physical yet strand which is supposedly a memory related darkness power, is made visible to us by being near the veil. Likewise, the witness had to use the veil to interact with the traveler, a being of physicality, since the witness is a being of darkness or memory. It is quite literally a bridge for the two forces of the universe and a literal veil that separates the divide between the two.
By your breakdown of strand and consciousness, it sounds like mastery of strand is the basis of the taken or the ability to take that oryx learned. The broodweaver lore sounds like taken. To pluck a subordinate from the web of consciousness sounds like removing one's will and puppetering them.
One thing I never thought much about until now is that with darkness being the realm of the metaphysical/mental and light being the realm of physical - it's interesting that all light elemental weapons are classed as energy weapons ie metaphysical where as all darknness elemental weapons are considered kinetic ie physical. Just a funky thing to consider.
id like to see some talk about the lore that could have been. how we could have found strand in the throne world and how that would impact that campaign
Strand tells us a lot about the darkness, including stasis. While strand is the element of “connection” (both physical and psychological), perhaps stasis is the element of “time.” This can be seen in several icons in the fragments. One fragment depicts an hour glass. A lot of the aspects reference an object being “frozen” in an era. This makes sense of the verbs “slow” and “freeze.” You don’t slow and enemy with cold temperatures, but instead you slow time around them. Likewise in “freezing” them in time. Thoughts?
I know a lot of people disliked the emphasis on strand in this expansion story (I can kind of see why), I’m very appreciative for the deep dive into the nature of the darkness, and what it means for our story as a whole. We’ve come a long way from “light good darkness bad” and I love that. I actually want to know other people’s thoughts on a different topic since we got the revelation that darkness is a manifestation of the mind: doesn’t void seem like it should be a darkness power? Or rather different aspect of “void” can be split into light AND dark. Void is, of course, the physical manifestation of “the void”. Space magic in the truest sense. It makes sense that these aspects are represented in light. But I read the Hunter tab for void the other day and noticed the mention of “whispers” of the void. The Hunter says “he can best hear the void on an empty stomach”. This feeling of hunger, or need to “devour” as void itself calls it, brings about manifestations of voices that aren’t in the material plane. I feel that is best represented in darkness. Other aspects of void also feel odd as a light power: what exactly about the void of space allows you to “suppress” targets? To me it seems more of an extension of your will/mind rather than a physical manifestation of space itself. To be honest, I think void was meant to be the “dark of the light” before wielding darkness was even considerable for our guardians. I heard somewhere that void wasn’t even condoned for use by the vanguard because of its risky nature. It really seems to walk a fine line between light and dark (to me anyway) and I wanted to see if anyone else felt the same
"Stand is what gives a Guardian his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." Ben Kenobi
It's cool how each darkness subclass either parallels or opposes one of the light. Strand isn't dissimilar to arc, instead of control you channel it. Become part of it. This may be a bit odd but I see stasis as the antithesis of void, not solar. Where one is a power birth from nothingness, the other is power granted through rigid absolution. Makes me curious if they'll continue this theme with a third subclass for solar. Though I have no clue how it would function on a philosophical standpoint seeing as solar seems to be the most free form element.
+My name is Byf When you said that Strand is something the Witness could never use because of his ideology, a thread of several leading thoughts sparked in my mind. It may be spinfoil, but these things occurred to me immediately when you said that: Psychic Connection: Elemental manifestation Veil/Mushroom: Physical manifestation Mycelial Network: Yes... The veil is likely a "gravemind" (referencing a concept of the Flood from Halo) analogue for Egregore. It's all just a reskin of "neural physics", with a drop of mushrooms and twist of magnetodynamics. We notice Strand near the veil because the Veil is reacting to a paracausal entity... us. The veil isn't the source, any more than the north pole is the "source". It's just a much bigger, more concentrated mind. Imagine following a compass to the north pole believing you found the center of the world. Later do we realize that MANY things create these fields/strands, including ourselves. The Veil is an Egregore supercluster hidden/severed by Savathun during the first collapse, and Strand is a paracausal manipulation of magnetic field lines.
I find it immeasurably interesting that the light, which deals in reality and the physical world, is represented ephemerally through the use of it's powers while darkness is the opposite. A power dealing in the metaphysical, the mastering of our emotions and thoughts, is represented as a more solid, physical force in the world.
What I like about the Neomunians is how we earthlings looked at things as fighting for one side of opposing forces of nature, seeing that as our purpose in life. whereas neptunians look at the conflict (unknowingly) as just part of life.
I HOPE MORE THAN ANYTHING that the 3rd subclass we get is the ability to Take. It fits the whole theme of the darkness now that it's known that darkness is the immaterial. Imagine being able to look at an enemy and say, "your will matters no longer, because my will is now yours" using a charged melee to corrupt the target and cause them to physically fight yours, lashing out at anything nearby, or a grenade that pulls enemies to their knees as they grip their heads, ripping hair out, damaging themselves as they try to regain control of their bodies. Or a super that fully enforces your will on those around you, truly taking them, and controlling them as a puppet, or creating a blight that summons former foes, overpowered and blind to their own actions, or summoning copies of your own body, each with a shared will, bound to a single mind, fighting as one. GOD that would be so cool
This further gets into the mushroom theory of the Veil. IF consciousness gives rise to strand, and the Veil makes it more perceptible, then the Veil being a cosmic mushroom (the most visible part of mycelium networks) is even more bolstered as a theory. The question that comes next is why strand is spawned of consciousness? Or if strand is consciousness, can the Veil only be created by a mass consciousness? Can it be created by any mass consciousness? Does forcing control over being like the Witness render beings unable to form a Veil due to their collective conscious being turned into the conscious of a singular being? An Additional term that is associated with mushrooms is: Universal Veil. Might want to look into connection with that, I don't think Bungie writers in their research for talking about egregore and Fungi wouldn't have written that term down for later use given that it is in Morphology section on the Wkikipedia article for Mushroom.
I mean.. Darkness is essentially the Unseen. Dreams and Nightmares aren't seen in physical reality and while Stasis may be Ice what it refers to is Time, Equilibrium, Stagnation. Strand is connection, something we as individuals clearly don't see physically but something is there. Light is the Seen anything physical or what we can see I suppose. Oh shit.. just got to 4:35 Byf explaining this.. Oh well! I do like how the more your character taps into strand sources the more their animation upon interaction goes from Tensing up to power up > to flowing with strand to flow with the river.
One thing I will say is the hive probably already used strand as a way for their magic as they were already connected it's their instinct to use it which is why the traveler wanted to raise them up initially but the darkness was there to twist the connection they would have gotten
have you ever notice how pyramids are the simplest geometric shape where it only has the least amount of edges where the traveler is a sphere with "infinite" amount of edges?
I think good way to think about it is similar to The Weave in D&D. Or The Force in Star Wars. An invisible field/web that connects all physical reality. Strand allows us to see the web and manipulate it to our will.
This kinda remind me of string theory and electron spin constant being that electrons are positioned in a linear string like manor on the atomic level and these electrons would all move in a precise spin/rotational like movement
Strand is the underlying plot for almost everything that is difficult to explain. Strand is what makes up the throne world's. Strand is the vex dimensions. Strand is the link psions make with each other where they can visit world's in their minds. Strand probably has something to do with the taken. Strand is the ley lines, the distributary, and the ascendant plane. The veil is probably what connects the 2 universes which makes it so powerful.
The more we talk about being able to wield light and dark and intertwining the more it makes me wonder if at the end of the saga and into whatever Destiny 3 is guardians will be able to wield both at once in some sort of load out.
Can we get a deep dive on each Subclass element, their quirks, interesting uses by guardians through history, and their nature? I remember stasis being something like will given form through Negentropy and it even being aware enough to try and propegate by making itself seem more appealing. But what about void, solar, and arc? I've seen hunters in lore infusing their weapons for GG and others making one from the light, there's all kinds of stuff to talk about with the 'elements' of destiny.
I don't know if you have made these, but I'd love a video for each elemental type. Osiris had those containers with each element in them and gave a simple description. I'd love a deep dive into all 5 elements.
That would be interesting as a video concept for both new and old players
Meromorphic did a series last year or 2 explaining them in a pretty good way considering that we only now are getting a blunt description from Bungie.
Look up the red war campaign. When the story has us reclaim each subclass from the shard of the traveler in the EDZ we get a ton of disembodied dialogue explaining and exploring each element through the lens of various users
Fr
@@MrNoble1997 i really miss those
I’ve always felt Savathūn’s darkness powers being related to strand would’ve made a lot of sense. Especially given the whole web theme she specifically has, and her emphasis on seeing the unseen.
One theory is that strand was meant for WQ, and was meant to be more tied in with Savathun.
@@atomic_wait more like basically confirmed, but retconned due to delays
Savathūn was in contact with the veil at one point, it's possible that she was already using strand and we couldn't see it yet.
I don’t really feel like strand fits savathun. She’s never seemed like one to relinquish control in any meaningful way, given her role as an entity of lies and manipulation
this way it kind of makes sense how savathun is so cunning and why she's damn near omnipotent. if she's mastered strand, she's able to use it to "observe" all of everything because of how strand is supposedly an omnipresent construct that connects everything
I love the idea of Strand being a way for us to "pluck" or "play" the strings of the universe like an instrument. It very much is an element of flow, of letting go of oneself to join the harmony of the universe... and to turn that harmony into a chord of outward force, something that resonates with all around us. Hmmm, resonate...
Whilst it is still debated on what ability Savathun used on Nezarec when she killed him, I think it’s important to remember that it was also Savathun whom taught Oryx’s daughters “ The Weaver and The Unraveler “. This suggests that she may indeed have made her betrayal long before we even realized it. That she had already killed Nezarec, whisked away and hidden the veil all the while learning strand and teaching it to Iruk and Anur but in a hive magic copycat/mimicry fashion. If it is not mimicry and is indeed strand then the lore from Bad Ju Ju stands true about them already knowing our past present and future or at least Savathun does at least. This all falls in line in The Book of Sorrows lore which in a particular segment gives way to “ Savathun having learned a great secret and then deciding to part ways so that they might grow different. “ There is alot to think about the implications here 🤔 Folks you best keep your thoughts and feelings on guard at all times💀
It’s increasingly looking like hive magic is related to strand. Perhaps it’s a corrupted, incomplete, or lesser manifestation
This comment right here
Anything founded on the idea of Savathun or anyone else learning Strand before the Guardian cannot stand as Bungie has categorically stated otherwise.
I really enjoy how Bungie is developing the concepts of the "Darkness". It's a very interesting path and not one I would have expected, given how this whole story started back in D1 with good guy light bearers and evil guy darkness worshipers.
*Cough* Ahh yes, the warlords. Those "good" lightbearers. With all their heroic stories being told on Neomuna.
@@Moncrom How did that get told but all our god killing and protecting didn't?
@@Moncrom Yea... I mean... erhmm... there is a reason the path they're on goes over so well with the community... right? I mean... it's almost like the seeds of it were planted there... deliberately? Nah... I MUST just be imagining it...
In all seriousness, they can have all the ancient lore they want. My comment referenced specifically the in game content and the storylines surrounding it. The Vanguard were good guys, the Hive and everyone other than the Awoken were bad guys. The Awoken were neutral as were any "bad" or "good" guys that aligned with them. It was all very distinct shades of white, grey, and black.
Now it's much more complex, and this is not a story they HAD to tell. They could have kept with the evil enemies and the pure good guys. But they chose to make it more complex and, that inevitably makes it more interesting.
@@ahawkone8850 The story was supposed to be like that allready in D1. Warlords were allready a thing back there. They just had to remove a lot of it due to legal issues.
I guess each of our Strand Supers could be considered a representation of each of the Greek Fates:
Warlocks create the threads
Hunters pull and extend them
And Titans Cut them
Wow, that’s actually a good connection with the Fates.
DESTINY ΣΤΗΝ ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΠΑΜΕ ΛΙΓΟΟΟΟΟΟ
You mean punch them?
@@Xenomorph768 no, titans cut, they have blades
@@AeroStikk thats just stronger punching to me
The talk of fate reminds me of the old phrase "Guardians make their own fate". In the concept of strand and the veil and Greek mythos regarding fate, what if the veil is the loom. The witness manipulated the loom to control their own fate to allow them to take the traveller.
So.... Mastery of Strand is a literal manifestation of the phrase.
Stand being all about connections reminds me of some old hive lore (maybe books of sorrow, or the oryx part of marasenna, idk) that describes the hive reverence for the concept of a sword, and how a sword is a bridge between the weilder and the victim. Maybe the hive, as adherents of darkness, were beginning to grasp or at least describe the basics of strand here, in unsurprising the most violent way possible
I think it’s really interesting that we are just now defining the nature of the light and dark. This is confirmation of some really old ideas because despite our confusion surrounding this, I was rewatching the book of sorrow lore vids and realised that we were literally given the answer back then.
The Leviathan states that the krill are on the edge of a war between form and formless, and that they need to go back up instead of going further down to the deep where the worm gods rest.
But the fact that it states that the light and dark are form and formless all the way back during the taken king is crazy to me.
As someone who's been on a recent Cosmere tear, that whole scene with Nimbus and Osiris was giving me big "Realmatic Theory" vibes...
For the uninformed, in Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere series, Realmatic Theory is the in-universe study of the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual Realms and how they interact and intersect with each other. As a rule of thumb all forms of Magic tend to be more rooted in one Realm over the other two, but anything that affects one Realm will have trickle down effects in the others.
Going by that, Light mainly acts in the Physical, Darkness in the Cognitive, and both are able to act in a lesser degree on the Spiritual.
Parts of how you describe strand and "flowing with the river" to wield it reminded me of the Stormdancer's Brace lore entry. Which describes wielding the Stormtrance as noting that the "storm is so much bigger than you. So much more than you can control".
good call out! missed that one myself. kinda puts strand as the darkness version of arc, at least in the sense of how its weilded. not as something you control, but as a force you simply act as a conduit for. something that you flow with as much as it flows through you; less controlled by our will and more directed by it. you dont tell the storm where to strike, likewise you cannot command the weave to obey. you simply embrace both, plucking small threads and sparks into your advantage as they appear in the right place and time
iirc the lore tab for Geomag Stabilizers also conveys the same concept as well.
Blame the retcon. Honestly, before the "Darkness is about mind stuff from here on" pivot, reading about strand would lead one to believe that it's a Light power. Further, it has so many connections (even that word... connection) to Arc lore that it could be indistinguishable.
Mastery over strand has a lot in common with Taoism.
In taoism enlightenment is achieved by understanding one’s place in the universe and by living in harmony with all of it.
In this sense it is just like flowing with the river.
Also the thought of threadlings giving you mental presence in multiple places is wild.
id love to see destiny do a narrative dive into the civilian applications of light and dark. they do mention that theres a secret colony somewhere out there of pacifist lightbearers. a place that lady effrideet 'retired' to.
@@Skywatcher16 i was hoping to find efrideet in neumona just for that reason as an excuse to not spill the beans about the apparently successful colony in Neptune to protect the city and the traveler. Kept in secret. And the Neumona people also seem to be pacifist, a veil to their actual fact that they are hiding the key to win this. This is also a trope used that monasteries, since respected by the public eye also was a veil to hide things from said public too, and also away from society. Dispute or not, it has that essence. When Neptune was revealed, these were my first thoughts.
Before I knew the specific lore about Strand, I thought it looked like Hive magic. Not only due to the hue, but also to the specific ability of threadlings, as they look like worms. Usually one doesn't hear about worms in Destiny, and when one does, it's connected to the Hive. It makes me wonder even more what having Hive Guardians might be like. Could we learn their magics? And how would their culture and technology impact humanity.
Byf please do this for all elements. Would love to get a better understanding of how we use each element
Stasis isn’t ice it’s literally what it says it is it’s stasis. Frozen but not cold. Kinetically locked. Stasis is the lack of energy causing molecules to become uniform.
Actually, temperature is basically a form of kinetic energy. Atoms in an object are constantly vibrating. The speed of that vibration is temperature.
I love how destiny can ease people into some very psychedelic topics
Love the focus on some of the more basic aspects of destiny, I would also like to see a video for the other elements too. Some thing I feel that has been lost in the transition to Destiny 2 is the lore about the light and dark itself, also how each class interprets each power. I always thought it was cool that the void was seen as a sort of "place" that if you stay in too long can corrupt people, like how they talk about Nightstalkers going rogue in the class mission in D1. I hope bungie focuses more on giving each class more lore and explaining how they see their powers.
The cutscene with Osiris and Nimbus discussing the Light and Dark, and the river of souls, is really important and provides a lot of valuable insight. That's probably a huge part of why the Lightfall campaign left a bad taste in my mouth, since that cutscene bugged out and didn't play at all for me and my friends I was playing it with the day Lightfall dropped.
I was lucky to see it and omg I'm glad I saw it so cool :) I'd love to hear more about neomuna even daily life
I did not see it on either of my playthroughs so far
You know, watching this, it came to me; I feel like a simple way of introducing strand the first time, and howbwe could see it, should of had us use Deepsight.
more missed narrative oppertunities... god damn it bungie
Tbh I think we were using deepsight to be able to see the strand
@@Vikrampic123 It's my headcanon. And if it's the intention, it should have been made more clear. At least have me cast Deepsight the first time we find strand you know?
@@DreamingGod05 or it could be we’ve gotten so good at using it that we do it unconsciously.
I feel as if this is bungie’s chance to give our character an actual backstory. Seeing as deepsight can even reveal character’s previous lives. They can make a create a story for us even. Which would be interesting to see how we died just right outside the city
Well the rumor was strand was originally going to be introduced in witch queen so maybe you're onto something. It seems like they had a rebrand of sorts with Lightfall. Like in the marketing at first it was all dark and mysterious. Then later on Lightfall marketing became bright and vibrant neon that we see now. Not sure why they didn't keep strand with witch queen if it's true. Maybe wanted to combine Lightfalls original story with final shape so they turned Lightfall into filler because let's be honest that what it feels like
I kinda feel like Strand is "good" Darkness, while Void is "bad" Light. Stasis and Solar are more "pure" examples of Dark and Light respectively, and Arc and the unnamed "third" Darkness subclass/energy are adjacent to Strand and Void respectively.
^ THIS!
THIS IS SUCH A GOOD WAY OF PUTTING IT!
Why do you feel that the void is "bad" light? Also, why do you feel that strand is a "good" form of darkness? Personally, I feel the whole idea of classifying elements into good or bad in regards to the power of manifestation as pointless, the elements do not possesses innate goodness or badness to them. After all, it is the person wielding the element that dictates whether the element is a force of good or bad.
@@nobodyscomment929 Yea I get why you would say this. But honestly, it's just the vibe I get based on Bungie's portrayal of these things so far. Like Nezarec using void and just the design of it overall (devour for instance), and Strand's whole "go with the flow, river of souls, threads of life" thing.
Same line of thinking. Arc and Solar put out energy (heat building up in enemies and exploding out via ignition while electricity arcs and conducts through enemy and players like a circuit) but Void pulls and takes away, breaking down volatile matter and turning it into energy. Very darkness-like for a light element.
In lore, the Void is considered to be absent of both light and darkness and, as such, is indifferent to who wields its power. Also, the method to which guardians can use Strand and Void is similar in that both require you to relinquish control. For Strand, you simply relinquish control and allow yourself to flow with the Weave, whereas with Void, you open yourself up to the void and allow its energy to flow into you.
Also, both of them kind of have messed up abilities, with Void its devour, with Strand its Sever. One allows you to feast on the very life of your enemy, whereas the other allows you to separate your enemies' intrinsic connection with all things and should they die, have their remaining life force converted into a bundle of tangled strands.
I have an thoughts about Darkness.
Stasis is like we're freezing Time around our enemies.
Strand is like we're weaving Space to tangle & sever our enemies.
If we ever get a third darkness subclass then i assume it would make us wield something that is all about Dimension.
it is possible, with how the witness opened the portal within the Traveller, and how the witness shows himself to Calus in multiple times by bending and shattering the environment around, it can give us an idea of a possible new power like you described, Dimension.
Maybe we manipulate space time. The orange color we get from inverting arc blue is the same orange color we see in a black hole
I hope we get Resonance from it. I remember reading about how resonance as a physics phenomenon is sort of heavily related to a mechanic of quantum physics.
I thought may be a absorbing ability or maybe decay like death
Damn this bastard stole my third dimension
Can't have shit in Detroit.
One correction, the game talks about "Weave", not "Web". Doesnt change much, just wanted to point it out for correctness sake.
I think it's because I was a Fate fan. But I immediately realized what they meant after that conversation between Osiris and Nimbus. At least, right now, I think of darkness as the collective unconscious of all beings, in a way. All things are connected to this place and controlling it IS impossible because that collective will fight back against anything that it deems a threat.
10:51 is my fav part of the campaign cause it threw so many people for a loop
Byf, I'm quite surprised in your "Did Savathun kill Nezarec with Strand" video, you never seemed to explore the most interesting option. You kept saying "Maybe she used Strand" and "Maybe it was just Soulfire" but never explored the following: *What if Strand IS pure, uncontrolled, undiluted Hive Soulfire?* (Soulfire is the Lore-Accurate name for Poison)
We know that the Witness uses its will to twist, warp, and mutate Paracausal energies to its will. We saw this with the Pyramid Ships giving Stasis to us, it was so dangerous because Stasis was a power that had been subjugated by the Witness's control. Strand, however, had not been. Strand is a free-flowing, Universal Power.
I think the Witness could not successfully grasp Strand, so it had the Worm Gods harness and reshape it into Hive Soulfire, granting it to the hive in a trickle-down effect. This is how the Worm Gods granted power to the Hive. Always is a corrupted, diluted manor, never directly at the source. This is why Oryx had to kill Akka to fully gain the power of Taking.
So thats my theory. Soulfire is a Worm God-Corrupted version of Strand because the forces of the Witness can not weild it at its most powerful form, because they cant learn to flow with the river!
Some points to add to yours:
The Scarlet Hive used their magic to literally rip souls out and put them into different bodies. That screams "psychic threads" for sure.
In the Strand Lore book, it's specifically stated that the way Strand manifests for us is not the same as it would be for someone else. For the people of Neomuna, it would likely appear as a river. Perhaps to the Hive, it manifests as Soulfire.
And just an interesting note, the flavor text for Verity's Brow is "The Hive do not see how we see. They look beyond, into the infinite. Into the dark." Something to think about.
@@michaelchesnut865 also. Let's not forget that Oryx daughters literally tear the thread of reality apart to reshape it into whatever Oryx wishes. That screams strand to me.
I am definatly a supporter of the "hive soulfire being a less pure and/or optimized version of strand" theory until it's prove to be false or doesn't make sense anymore
@@fuckinantipope5511 fuck it i'll jump on the train
The more & more of these lore videos and theories come out, the more I am CONVINCED that I was right when I said that Bungie was VERY intentional with making aspects of Lightfall a mystery. A LARGE percent of the player base problem, was they wanted ALL the answers within the 1st 72 hours of the Lightfall launch.... and when they didn't get it, suddenly the story is "bad". No, the story is over their heads until it becomes more clear. I LOVE the direction that the story is taking, it COMPLETELY removes the predictability factor, and the "know-it-alls" can't stand it. 😂😂😂
being a web of memorys and emotions would really have fitted into witch queen so much more
I think for Stasis it specifically can manipulate time with regards to slow and freeze... Not necessarily cold but stopped in place like crystals.
Furthermore shatter affects our mind and perception
Yeah, it's more about lowering entropy.
But he is still correct, cos slowing down the movement of molecules is exactly what freezing is, lol
@@Loderyod stagnation, denial, a frozen low effort way of looking at the world
Where nothing changes, nor can it change. Crystalized in a single moment of memory.
@@r.connor9280 true. "Freezing" is a very "physical" explanation and darkness is much more deeper than this
Makes sense it was the first one into darkness due to these very same things, pretty trippy man 😅🥶
This, specifically, is why I think the Veil is the Traveler's "brain". If it's the source or physical medium of something like the Traveler's consciousness, then it would explain why Ghost has the same feeling from the two, and why Rasputin said it was deeply tied to the Traveler WHILE ALSO being an incredibly powerful Darkness artifact.
It would also explain why being near it would reveal Strand as a byproduct (a consciousness as powerful as the Traveler's would be an obvious hotspot, and Strand being compared to a paracausal magnetic superposition byproduct being like brain waves and electrical signals in our own brains), how it could be used to create a digital universe for the CloudArk (using a godlike brain for processing power, not just as a power supply), and why the Witness needs it to access the Traveler (the Darkness is the domain of the immaterial, emotions, memories. If it's tapping into its mind and able to then create the link between the mind and body of the Traveler, which is the major source of Light in the universe, which is also connected across space and time, then the portal the Witness made being compared to a wormhole makes perfect sense.)
nope. the traveler and “the light” is based purely around the physical, whereas darkness surrounds consciousness. bungie wouldn’t flip the script this far into the narrative (this is literally told in the cutscene, which is in the video???)
i think it’s easier to look at as an artifact of darkness, or at most a combination of the two, like the distributary - definitely not the brain, or heart, or testicle, of the traveler.
@beaniefaust ... so, did you just not read the points I made to back up my idea?...
You know what, I have three questions for you:
Do you not remember that the Light and the Traveler are confirmed to be intimately connected but for sure separate things, since as far back as Vow of the Disciple?
Going from your logic, do you honestly believe the Traveler isn't conscious despite the lore clearly showing it is?
And again, going from your logic, why can we see the Witness doing things when it should be a disembodied consciousness and so not have a physical body?
Weirdly, I like this better than my Veil = Egregore "gravemind" theory.
@@beaniefaust4144
The whole "darkness surrounds consciousness" itself was a flipping of the script dude. That is a relatively new idea which, while it's certainly (and imo unfortunately) cannon now, would have gotten you laughed out of the room a couple years ago. Back then, the closest notion to any of the paracausal forces having a connection to being based in an entities mind or soul was Arc... with the Taken being an example of having such faculties ripped away.
Kyle here has a pretty decent theory, and it still fits because "flipping the script" is exactly what Bungie has been doing for a while now. I REALLY wouldn't be surprised if we find out they are taking us down the "Traveler and Witness are really split halves of the same Ancient" route. After Pain-god tea, there is absolutely nothing Bungie can do to subvert my expectations. Can't have your expectations subverted when you know you are dealing with insanity.
@Mur Durmuffin thank you, a ton of people dismiss it out of hand, but the only argument made against it basically boils down to "Traveler = Light, checkmate"
It's nice to have a tiny bit of appreciation, even if it doesn't turn out correct.
Looking at the different subclasses I do think it’s probably different ways to master Strand at its individual parts: ie the Titan Berserker is to let go of restraint, cut and sever the strings like Atropos. Hunters Threadrunners are the ones that see the strings and travel and flow with them, not necessarily altering but flowing with it, weaving and spinning the wheels like Clotho. And Warlock Broodweavers being the patternmakers, able to use the threads to create new forms and let those flow on their own, extend themselves and guide their new creations like Lachesis.
Also ngl it also feels to me (with a vague understanding of the concept) that Strand could have a connection to the idea of String Theory
Tricking the witness into attempting to control strand and getting a big old game over is how the final shape ends, I'm calling it here
If I remember correctly, there was some lore that stated stasis isn't ice, that the crystals aren't physically cold, but more a physical manifestation of something along the lines of stagnation
I dont know how much this applies. but the surface of the Veil that we see in game, as well as the concept art, reminds me a lot of some of the objects and platforms in the Dreaming City and Last Wish raid
Solar: heat
Void: free flowing chaotic energy
Arc: positive electrical charge
Stasis: heat death/cosmic expansion
Strand: string theory, super position, cosmic tunneling. Like how atoms can exist it multiple places at once
Seems like the light is physical and darkness is fundamental/theoretical physics. Im not an expert but this is how it feels. Deep site seems like time.
Whenever I think of strand I can’t help but think “the elixni” they used to be weavers and I’d love a hidden mission where mythrax or eramis (turned good) or mythrax’s daughter learns to weave and activates strand unknowingly. Have it be that the traveler never abandoned them but they abandoned themselves by forgetting how to weave.
Really into the slowly developing philosophy of Destiny from dualistic viewpoints into the non-duality of strand and the veil. Art follows life, follows art.
This sound and feels like Savathun's memories from Witchqueen.
I’m really enjoying the shift from perspective going from light powers and dark powers to natural element powers. It’s pretty cool
What a marvelous piece of content, the deeper meaning behind the story of Destiny is really taking shape nicely. Thank you Byf
I always used to think of our abilities in The Light kinda like Bending (from ATLA), in that The Light is a force that allows us to interact with fundamental forces and I guess that was kinda confirmed as correct. I guess along those lines our abilities in the darkness would be more like The Force (Star wars) in that it involves more connections between things and a need to flow with said forces.
I really like how they explain it in game
I was just thinking that Strand sounds like Obi-Wan's description of the Force in ANH.
Ehhhh but more like the light the force as a will(see Kriea and her very much in depth description of the force in KoTOR 2)
@@jameskosusnik1102 I would love to talk about Kreia but I haven't been able to play the games where she makes an appearance.
@@mobiusblitz3470 not trying to talk down because I haven't played Kotor 2 fully (just on the first mission) u can learn lots of kreia through various youtube channels and their videos, the one I recommend the most is the philosophy of kreia by . (That's the channels name) While extremely long is VERY good at explaining not just the jedi and sith but also Kreia's as well. The force actually has attributes of the light and darkness in destiny but its not 1:1.
@@jameskosusnik1102 I think that video is one of the few that crossed my watch list actually. She has interesting theories but I have a problem with removing the Force from the equation.
I would be very interested in a video were u discusse the lore of the other 4 elements with the recent lore from osiris canisters ,maybe also speculate on why the power of the taken and resonance are so different in form but similar in their concept
this is catastrophically badass.
What if the Veil acts as a giant eyeball? The black part is the 'eye' while the strands in the back act as the 'optical nerves'?
One could say that strand surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the universe together.
Bro think he osiris
@@puddes5832 Do you like Star Wars?
Stasis and Strand are kind of opposite in line of thinking, though they are both abilities in darkness. Strand focuses on one’s place and relinquish of control, yet the Witness seems to be fighting those ideals. It is this mindset that may explain why stasis is what was given to us by the Witness, as it is the assertion of one’s will onto others or the universe. It’s not my best interpretation I admit.
For all of Lightfall's shortcomings, they definitely dropped a lot of hints of what is to come and what is to be explained.
Stasis @1:10 isn’t just cosmic ice. It’s time crystals , ice, and the power of self control, and discipline all wrapped into one.
I was actually surprised he called stasis “cosmic ice” given that it’s not an accurate depiction. Stasis was described as the manifestation of ultimate control over yourself, and your enemy. Stasis’ ability to bind enemies is not exactly via “ice” in the sense that we know it, but an exertion of control over said enemy. It’s just similar to ice and it’s “freezing” property and given the entry where Osiris says the appearance of strand was dictated by the preconceived attributes OUR character placed onto it, I’m inclined to think stasis was likely the same. Stasis was made to appear ice-like due to its properties being extremely similar to ice.
Kinda reminds me of The Paths in Attack on Titan. If Strand exist everywhere, The Veil is just a Trigger to "see it" more easily.
Please look into Hopf Fibrations, every time I watch a video explaining them, they use 3d models that look like tangles. Also they use terminology and verbs pertaining to Stand explaining them.
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Fresh coffee, a nice loaf of bread and a new byf vídeo. That's nice
This actually tells us alot about the veil. Its something that controls fate or is fate itself, the witness is trying to change fate for the darkness. Maybe thats what the final shape is
It's interesting that the darkness power that's all about control is the one the witness guided us to, by possessing our ghost and telling us to seek power on europa in season of arrivals. I can't help but notice that we have yet to hear any accounts of guardians being corrupted by using strand, when this was a seemingly common occurrence when stasis was first introduced to the guardian population. It implies that stasis, as a power that the guardian must exert control over, works both ways and makes it easier for the witness to exert control over the wielder, whereas strand, which rewards "going with the flow", is seemingly immune to the influence of the witness.
Fun fact about Spider-Man. The term Spider-Totem refers to a class of multiversal supernatural entities created by the elder goddess Neith, linked to a mystical force called the Web of Life and Destiny.
i have to mine around 10,000 cobblestone in minecraft skyblock. Your videos are great to listen to in the background!
The river nimbus talks about sounds a lot like rhulk talking about drowning in the deep or rising from it
Byf: stasis is cosmic ice, solar is cosmic fire, arc is cosmic lightning
Me: strand is cosmic bondage
Strand is indeed one of the powers of all time
the *BEST* Darkness Powers* Titan Subclass ended up being way more fun than i expected, and i've gotten triple-kills frequently with the Warlock Super in the Crucible.
More like the better of the two Darkness subclasses so far.
@@brawler5760 honestly it the whole peacemaker-bloodspoet meme, strand does what stasis does, but a whole lot better.
@@markricheard1870 Unless you have Osteo Striga, stasis warlock is better than strand warlock imo
I like that it’s green, it reminds me of that power deku has in my hero academia
Another thing you could do is look at how each class of Guardian uses the powers of Light and Dark, and how they understand each individual power.
Titans employ those powers with blunt force, whether coating themselves in it or forging bludgeoning weapons.
Warlocks wield those powers in their rawest state, only rarely forming weapons to direct and guide their attacks.
And Hunters shape those powers into precision weapons, often maintaining a specific distance from their opponents.
9:25
Actually learned about the Fates thanks to Persona, was wondering what those big strings they were holding were.
Strand in lore: Cannot be controlled, free, see the weft and weave
Strand in game: Literally more control than stasis in every way.
In the campaign we had to learn how to maintain it
When Nimbus said “We either sink in the water, or we learn to swim” not too concerning how a certain disciple said “Drown in the deep, or rise from it.” Right?
If the veil is a gateway into the mind and memory of the universe, wouldn’t it be possible to bring back Cayde-6 and Amanda Holliday?
When Osiris spoke about para causal super-positions, I mostly assumed that strand reaches out to estructures and energies from other dimensions or timelines that are similar to ours and super imposed in the same physical space that we occupy
Then, strand is able to pull whatever we can for a moment to OUR physical reality, to be manipulated and used in our physical environment via force of will
Bit of spinfoil here. If Stasis is memory, and Strand is connection, then the third Darkness power would be something like will, morality, or personality. That hints toward Resonance being the next element - adopting The Witness’ power as our own, and using it to defeat them.
Yeah, it's probably gonna be resonance, there are a lot of substantial hints towards that.
And resonance being centered around will also makes sense since only the most dedicated disciples could master it.
Calus only got it for his last fight (most likely because of fear) and even then it was pretty primitive
aah, yeah resonance sounds about right
wouldn't stasis be more about control tho? with it being about shutting things down and such?
Strand being memory AND connection?
The problem with this theory is that Resonance is not a Darkness element, it's just pure Darkness energy.
This was even confirmed in Nezarec's concept art, which states that the pure Light of the Traveler, the white and blue energy, is called Terraformation while pure Darkness, the black and yellow energy, is called Resonance.
This can even be seen in the actual game. All Darkness constructs are filled with the energy and in the cutscene where Eramis gives Phylaks Stasis, the Stasis splinter starts of with a yellow glow before turning into the blue energy of Stasis, representing pure Darkness being turned into an element.
Stasis is about Will and Control, to control one's self and one's enemies, to place one's WILL onto another to make them stop, shatter, or slow. Taken power, from what i've seen, is a corrupted version of stasis, as both use the same Facet of Will and Control
Considering how Bungie has introduced darkness subclasses so far, it’s likely that the next element will be something new, something that revolves around an aspect of the mind that hasn’t been introduced yet. Personally I’d like to see the next element be about imagination and innovation.
this new knowledge of light being a power of the phisical while darkness of the non phisical makes it also clear why guardians don't have memories of their past life: the Traveler was able to bring their phisical body back trought the light but not their memories which are made of darkness
Off topic but I would totally listen to a full dissertation on light and dark from Osiris
I think a apt desciption for the threadlings are "allies". They manifest in response to the user, rather than being created by the user. Another perspective is that the Threadlings exist in the weave of Strand or collective consciousness. "Our" thoughts collectively allows them to become physical, rather than solely the user.
I wonder what would happen if someone was under the effect of Egrigor and used strand to pull themselves through the connectivity Egrigor seems to posses. Would they travel through space and time using Egrigor as a catalyst.
maybe thats something akin to what the witness was doing with the traveler...
When Nimbus said: “river of souls”, all I could envision, was the river Styx, and the many other rivers that connect to the underworld. To pass over, and give Charon coins for passage into the afterlife, the unknown. Or to sink and be crushed by the current. I suppose Osiris, until recently, as we’ve seen he has let go of his anger towards Savathun, is now finally ready to take the leap in learning more about Strand. Funny, Graviton Lance is described as, “the needle on reality’s loom”. I can’t help but feel an exotic strand bow would be appropriate: an arrow, as the needle. That connects all lives, to weave all fates. And sever them from the Weave’s threads when possible. It’s a subtle thing. More subtle than the Void or Stasis. I can’t help but wonder.. what the final darkness element will be.
So, this video really helped me to solidify a theory that’s been kicking around in my head for a while regarding Darkness and its subclasses. So far, we haven’t really been able to predict what the subclasses will be. With the Light, we didn’t need to infer.
But with the Darkness, at least to me, the subclasses seem to be representing a pattern, but in reverse. Starting with Stasis, we can control the states of objects. Or, Control.
With Strand, we can connect ourselves to objects around us. Or, Connection.
And with what.. I hope will be our last Darkness subclass.. we reach the start of this chain. I’ll call this “Contact” for now.
So, Darkness has a very simple pattern. Contact leads to Connection which leads to Control. This can be seen with a lot of Darkness artifacts and people, such as the Witness quite literally touching the Traveler, discovering and making a connection with it through our Ghost, and controlling the state of it by creating that strange door on it.
The Crown of Sorrow, at one point during its time on the Glykon, made contact with the Scorn, connected their minds once again, and controlled and willed them to do the Crown (and the Witness)‘s bidding.
My prediction for the veil. The veil itself is not conscious, but rather is a passage to an afterlife, strands go both ways through it. So it's immense power comes from the untold number of souls whose memories, thoughts, emotion etc (strands) are still threading through the universe, but the connection between (dimensions?) It's very strong around the veil.
I'm going to say it because I'm supprised no one else has said it.
The veil is a lens or gateway. Not in the traditional sense, but in a way that allows both light and dark to transcend their respective boundaries and interact with each other in a way that would normally be impossible.
Light is the domain of the physical yet strand which is supposedly a memory related darkness power, is made visible to us by being near the veil.
Likewise, the witness had to use the veil to interact with the traveler, a being of physicality, since the witness is a being of darkness or memory.
It is quite literally a bridge for the two forces of the universe and a literal veil that separates the divide between the two.
By your breakdown of strand and consciousness, it sounds like mastery of strand is the basis of the taken or the ability to take that oryx learned. The broodweaver lore sounds like taken. To pluck a subordinate from the web of consciousness sounds like removing one's will and puppetering them.
The thread lings are part of the understanding which is why we witness their pain, we witness them.
I think I like Strand that little bit more now :O Thank you!
One thing I never thought much about until now is that with darkness being the realm of the metaphysical/mental and light being the realm of physical - it's interesting that all light elemental weapons are classed as energy weapons ie metaphysical where as all darknness elemental weapons are considered kinetic ie physical. Just a funky thing to consider.
id like to see some talk about the lore that could have been. how we could have found strand in the throne world and how that would impact that campaign
Strand tells us a lot about the darkness, including stasis. While strand is the element of “connection” (both physical and psychological), perhaps stasis is the element of “time.” This can be seen in several icons in the fragments. One fragment depicts an hour glass. A lot of the aspects reference an object being “frozen” in an era. This makes sense of the verbs “slow” and “freeze.” You don’t slow and enemy with cold temperatures, but instead you slow time around them. Likewise in “freezing” them in time. Thoughts?
There are some moments I hear Byf and I think, “Is that Osiris?”
I know a lot of people disliked the emphasis on strand in this expansion story (I can kind of see why), I’m very appreciative for the deep dive into the nature of the darkness, and what it means for our story as a whole. We’ve come a long way from “light good darkness bad” and I love that.
I actually want to know other people’s thoughts on a different topic since we got the revelation that darkness is a manifestation of the mind: doesn’t void seem like it should be a darkness power? Or rather different aspect of “void” can be split into light AND dark. Void is, of course, the physical manifestation of “the void”. Space magic in the truest sense. It makes sense that these aspects are represented in light. But I read the Hunter tab for void the other day and noticed the mention of “whispers” of the void. The Hunter says “he can best hear the void on an empty stomach”. This feeling of hunger, or need to “devour” as void itself calls it, brings about manifestations of voices that aren’t in the material plane. I feel that is best represented in darkness. Other aspects of void also feel odd as a light power: what exactly about the void of space allows you to “suppress” targets? To me it seems more of an extension of your will/mind rather than a physical manifestation of space itself.
To be honest, I think void was meant to be the “dark of the light” before wielding darkness was even considerable for our guardians. I heard somewhere that void wasn’t even condoned for use by the vanguard because of its risky nature. It really seems to walk a fine line between light and dark (to me anyway) and I wanted to see if anyone else felt the same
"Stand is what gives a Guardian his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." Ben Kenobi
First thing I thought of 😆
It's cool how each darkness subclass either parallels or opposes one of the light.
Strand isn't dissimilar to arc, instead of control you channel it. Become part of it.
This may be a bit odd but I see stasis as the antithesis of void, not solar. Where one is a power birth from nothingness, the other is power granted through rigid absolution.
Makes me curious if they'll continue this theme with a third subclass for solar. Though I have no clue how it would function on a philosophical standpoint seeing as solar seems to be the most free form element.
Exactly although I always found it that stasis and solar is like a fire and ice concept
I feel like I completely missed that inkblot on my playthroughs.
+My name is Byf
When you said that Strand is something the Witness could never use because of his ideology, a thread of several leading thoughts sparked in my mind. It may be spinfoil, but these things occurred to me immediately when you said that:
Psychic Connection: Elemental manifestation
Veil/Mushroom: Physical manifestation
Mycelial Network: Yes...
The veil is likely a "gravemind" (referencing a concept of the Flood from Halo) analogue for Egregore. It's all just a reskin of "neural physics", with a drop of mushrooms and twist of magnetodynamics. We notice Strand near the veil because the Veil is reacting to a paracausal entity... us. The veil isn't the source, any more than the north pole is the "source". It's just a much bigger, more concentrated mind. Imagine following a compass to the north pole believing you found the center of the world. Later do we realize that MANY things create these fields/strands, including ourselves.
The Veil is an Egregore supercluster hidden/severed by Savathun during the first collapse, and Strand is a paracausal manipulation of magnetic field lines.
I find it immeasurably interesting that the light, which deals in reality and the physical world, is represented ephemerally through the use of it's powers while darkness is the opposite. A power dealing in the metaphysical, the mastering of our emotions and thoughts, is represented as a more solid, physical force in the world.
I just kinda want Osiris to explain the destiny universe to me, he should make a audio book
What I like about the Neomunians is how we earthlings looked at things as fighting for one side of opposing forces of nature, seeing that as our purpose in life. whereas neptunians look at the conflict (unknowingly) as just part of life.
Strand is the life that connects us, Moves us. Strand is the life in between
I HOPE MORE THAN ANYTHING that the 3rd subclass we get is the ability to Take. It fits the whole theme of the darkness now that it's known that darkness is the immaterial. Imagine being able to look at an enemy and say, "your will matters no longer, because my will is now yours" using a charged melee to corrupt the target and cause them to physically fight yours, lashing out at anything nearby, or a grenade that pulls enemies to their knees as they grip their heads, ripping hair out, damaging themselves as they try to regain control of their bodies. Or a super that fully enforces your will on those around you, truly taking them, and controlling them as a puppet, or creating a blight that summons former foes, overpowered and blind to their own actions, or summoning copies of your own body, each with a shared will, bound to a single mind, fighting as one. GOD that would be so cool
This further gets into the mushroom theory of the Veil. IF consciousness gives rise to strand, and the Veil makes it more perceptible, then the Veil being a cosmic mushroom (the most visible part of mycelium networks) is even more bolstered as a theory. The question that comes next is why strand is spawned of consciousness? Or if strand is consciousness, can the Veil only be created by a mass consciousness? Can it be created by any mass consciousness? Does forcing control over being like the Witness render beings unable to form a Veil due to their collective conscious being turned into the conscious of a singular being?
An Additional term that is associated with mushrooms is: Universal Veil. Might want to look into connection with that, I don't think Bungie writers in their research for talking about egregore and Fungi wouldn't have written that term down for later use given that it is in Morphology section on the Wkikipedia article for Mushroom.
I mean.. Darkness is essentially the Unseen. Dreams and Nightmares aren't seen in physical reality and while Stasis may be Ice what it refers to is Time, Equilibrium, Stagnation. Strand is connection, something we as individuals clearly don't see physically but something is there.
Light is the Seen anything physical or what we can see I suppose.
Oh shit.. just got to 4:35 Byf explaining this.. Oh well!
I do like how the more your character taps into strand sources the more their animation upon interaction goes from Tensing up to power up > to flowing with strand to flow with the river.
One thing I will say is the hive probably already used strand as a way for their magic as they were already connected it's their instinct to use it which is why the traveler wanted to raise them up initially but the darkness was there to twist the connection they would have gotten
have you ever notice how pyramids are the simplest geometric shape where it only has the least amount of edges where the traveler is a sphere with "infinite" amount of edges?
I think good way to think about it is similar to The Weave in D&D. Or The Force in Star Wars.
An invisible field/web that connects all physical reality. Strand allows us to see the web and manipulate it to our will.
This kinda remind me of string theory and electron spin constant being that electrons are positioned in a linear string like manor on the atomic level and these electrons would all move in a precise spin/rotational like movement
The way u described strand makes me think of psionic power
Strand is the underlying plot for almost everything that is difficult to explain. Strand is what makes up the throne world's. Strand is the vex dimensions. Strand is the link psions make with each other where they can visit world's in their minds. Strand probably has something to do with the taken. Strand is the ley lines, the distributary, and the ascendant plane. The veil is probably what connects the 2 universes which makes it so powerful.
The more we talk about being able to wield light and dark and intertwining the more it makes me wonder if at the end of the saga and into whatever Destiny 3 is guardians will be able to wield both at once in some sort of load out.
Can we get a deep dive on each Subclass element, their quirks, interesting uses by guardians through history, and their nature? I remember stasis being something like will given form through Negentropy and it even being aware enough to try and propegate by making itself seem more appealing. But what about void, solar, and arc? I've seen hunters in lore infusing their weapons for GG and others making one from the light, there's all kinds of stuff to talk about with the 'elements' of destiny.