I read FOURTH WING AND the one star reviews (here's what I learned from an author perspective)
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- This is an author perspective on the Fourth Wing phenomenon. Let's talk about what makes this book a bestseller (in my opinion), character, worldbuilding, pacing, and the wild difference of opinions in reviews...
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My issue isn't the books. Personally, I think they are barely okay. There are too many plot holes, non-sensical world building, and authorial style-tics to make this a great read. That said, if people love it, good for them. My problem is the over the top hype this book has received. It simply does not deserve it. There are so many authors out there who have written books so much more worthy of it. I've learned that Yarros wrote this because her publisher asked her to - they had a hole in their genre offerings and asked her to write a story to fill in. Too, I find releasing fantasy books every six months indicates a severe lack of seriousness about world building. It's kind of a smack in the face of writers who spend a lot of time really crafting a believable world.
Totally valid opinion... one note I will add though for you to consider, is that while every 6 months is fast in trad pub, it's actually considered slow to a lot of indie authors! I know dozens of indie authors who build fantastic worlds in less time and their readers all love those stories.
I can’t speak for Fourth Wing - haven’t read it and I don’t know Yarros’ history - but many indie authors release amazing fantasy books even more quickly than that. Some authors have a backlog, ie, they wrote the books years ago and are now rapidly releasing them. Everybody writes differently.
I haven't read the books, but I agree with you about every six months. I'm working on a series in this genre and it takes me over a year to finish them (granted, I also have a job, so that sucks a lot of time and energy away). I don't trust authors who throw out a book every three months--I've been burned by prolific authors too many times. Maybe that's because I AM a picky reader (unlike Bethany). I write books because I can't find ones I like on the market. Thanks for your slightly critical perspective on the book.
Which are your top 10 fantasy or romantasy?
personally, i'm a bit new to the romantasy genre. while i am a big fantasy fan, i entered the romance side of it recently with the ACOTAR series. that being said, i really loved the empyrean series because the relationship between xaden and violet felt very real. while there was a bit of some unrealistic sugarcoating, i like the relationship didn't suddenly become perfect and lovey-dovey, and they actually had issues which they wanted to solve. it just felt so much more REAL than other books i had read in romance, and that's saying a lot for a book set in a world full of dragons and dark weilders as opposed to a story set in D.C. (*cough cough not the entire twisted series by ana huang cough cough*) which had MUCH more smut than plot. however, like i said before, i don't have much experience in the romantasy genre so i can't say much. (would love it if i could get some recommendations for new reads!)
I really appreciate this video and the way you’re going at it with ‘okay what can I as an author learn from this?’
Love it! ❤️
I'm so glad to hear that, thank you!
I usually don't comment , but i had to let you know that i loved this video . I learned so much about the way you analyze the story . I would love to see more videos of you like this .
I love how modest, self-reflective and genuine you are. It’s very rare especially in creative business, which is very competitive. Thank you for sharing your positive spirit. Keep it up 🫶🏽
Thank you so much, I really appreciate that!
It's so interesting that you mention character and worldbuilding as strengths of this series when most (if not all) of the negative reviews I've seen cite these as some of the biggest weaknesses. I don't plan to read it. I was interested at first, but the positive and negative reviews made it clear to me that this isn't my style. But I am glad that people who do like it are having so much fun.
Thanks for this video! I wish more were looking at this series as a writing case study because I've only seen you and another author/developmental editor (julian greystoke) view it through that lens and I really appreciate it. Across all the reviews I've seen it seems that the book definitely has a strength of being compulsively readable and I'd definitely like to learn more about how to achieve that.
That's a good point haha, I guess it all depends on interpretation and expectation? It's definitely another good example of how art is so subjective for sure... But totally understandable if it's not for you, I think other people who also know it's not for them should do the same instead of hate-reading lol. Glad you enjoyed the video though, thank you! And I'll have to check out the other reviewer you mentioned, now I'm super curious!
I’m so glad you did this, Bethany - you verbalized so many amorphous thoughts that have been floating around in my head! 👏👏👏
I'm so glad it was helpful, thank you for saying that!
I haven't read Fourth Wing but some weeks back I started watching youtuber reviews about it, then stopped. But I like that you brought up questions and reactions from an author's perspective. From the marketing curiosity of how they chose this book as "the one," to comparing how you're working hard to get better at character development and how you thought the characters were strong in the book. As well as that the world is dark in Fourth Wing. Really interesting to hear. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you! I'm so happy you enjoyed this perspective on it! :)
Really loved this video. Was captivated till the end even though I'm not likely to read this book. You broke it down so well with lots of useful insights for authors. You're a fab storyteller.
Thank you so much, that means a lot to hear, I appreciate it!
I love this video! I don't know if plan to do more like this, but I would love it if you did!
Aww yay thank you so much, that means a lot to hear!
Really loved hearing a review with the author perspective. New subscriber and hope you do more of these in the future. Thanks for sharing!
Glad you enjoyed it, thank you!
Love this video! Funny that you said you've seen mostly negative reviews about this book, because for me it has been the complete opposite. I'm a Fantasy Romance/romantasy author, so most of the accounts I follow and see are of the genre this book is made for, so all I have seen for the most part are raving reviews, since she writes exactly what people want. The negative reviews I have seen are mostly for people who read or Fantasy, or other genres and have come to this because of the hype. I've also found that a lot of people want to hate on the popular thing and go to it with that in mind. I love that you rate and enjoy books based on what they made you feel, it’s the same for me! This series definitely did that. Fourth Wing was SO GOOD. I loved it. Iron Flame was… I had issues actually finishing it to be honest, and it was mostly because of Violet's actions attitude annoyed me a lot heh. I guess I still enjoyed it though.
Ahhh that's so fascinating to hear that the genre preferences play such a big role in overall opinions, makes total sense! Yeah Iron Flame wasn't quite as great as Fourth Wing for me either, but agreed, still enjoyed it! :)
I actually JUST read Fourth Wing for the same purpose as you: to learn.
What I learned from Fourth Wing was that when you write your story, you have this metaphorical spring that you're constantly putting tension on as the story progresses. However, people need satisfaction sooner than the end to be convinced that it's worth sticking around.
What the author did very well was create micro springs that when released, delivers a sense of satisfaction equal to the tension applied, so that when the main point of tension finally hits the climax, people are invested and trust in a satisfying conclusion (or at least a jaw dropping cliffhanger)
No way, that's awesome timing! Yeah I love that visual description. Those little "springs" really kept the pacing moving in an awesome way, I was very impressed by the pacing in particular!
@@BethanyAtazadeh Keep up the great work with the channel 😎👍
This is so true!
Very visual assessment-love it, and will keep it in mind during my revision process, which is underway (eek!).
I'm reading it now! I like it. She does a great job weaving the exposition into the action. Good pacing, solid writing. Struggling to care about the protagonist but I want to see what happens.
No way, awesome timing haha! That's awesome that you're enjoying it for the most part!
@@BethanyAtazadeh definitely! And great review!
Loved this video! I read both of these books and I enjoyed them. I enjoyed them from a reader and from an author perspective. I am not a picky reader either, and think a lot the way you do. Sure they are not perfect, but they both held my interest and made me care. I had to finish them. You are so right. If readers are enjoying it, who cares if it isn’t perfect writing. Not everything has to be a literary masterpiece, and no one is being forced to read these, or love them. I also agree with the marketing you talked about. I would love to know what happened for sure too. I kind of think someone chose it and MADE the readers excited for it. That is just my gut feeling. But who knows!
Thank you so much, glad you enjoyed the video! Yeah I think it's really fascinating how it draws out such extreme emotions and that just showcases how in reality it's very subjective. But I do love the idea of making something specifically for certain readers because we know they'll enjoy it, that's super cool!
I loved this. Thanks for your perspective. I read Iorn Flame recently, and I had a hard time with it. My writer brain felt it was undercooked. Had a good time with it all the same. I loved your thoughts on this, and may have to rethink mine.
That makes total sense-I agree, it felt like there was a lot more filler in book 2 but I still enjoyed it regardless. :)
Thank you for making this video. I read Fourth Wing in about three days. I overlooked the typos and other (especially from a writer's perspective) and focused on the storytelling experience. I have to say the pacing is what got me reading (not to mention the enemies-to-lovers trope, one of my favorites). We were introduced to a character with a very clear goal: survive her first year at this horribly cruel academy. I enjoyed the book, how Violet manages to make it with an otherworldly sense of compassion (cue Andarna). I waited for Iron Flame with bated breath. The 4th Wing cliffhanger was such that I had to get the book right away, so for the first time EVER, I actually pre-ordered it. Sadly, I am close to DNF'ing the second installment. I can't get into it, and this is mostly because my writer's brain hates Iron Flame. The pacing is off. The character development is off. We lack a clear goal (mostly because there are so many that I, as a reader, can't focus). And sadly, this author made two terrible mistakes. (ONE) To maintain the sexual tension typical of enemies-to-lovers, there is this disjointed reason by the female character hates the male character that makes no sense, more so when we are told time and time again that the male character did it to SAVE and PROTECT the female character. (TWO) The introduction of Xaden's ex-girlfriend (really?). The strong, no-nonsense Violet from 4th Wing disappeared in this book. I am forcing myself to read it, but the character I fell in love with, Violet, isn't here as clearly delineated as she was in 4th Wing. I honestly believe Iron Flame is a Xaden book and should've been told from his POV, as it would've made more sense. I gave 4th Wing five stars. Right now, Iron Flame is getting 3 from me, assuming I actually get to finish it.
I'm also a fantasy author and am reading Iron Flame right now. I also started it with low expectations after all the horrible reviews on UA-cam. But I am devouring the book. I really enjoyed it! I also read for enjoyment and how it makes me feel.
I think the marketing boom is mainly because prime video decided to pick the plot up for a tv series. they’re probably funding the marketing
I have to admit that I felt the same kind of awe and jealousy after reading both of those books. I read Iron Flame right after releasing my second book, and it gave me such strong feelings of imposter syndrome. Which was totally uncalled for because readers have loved my books but at the same time, it's so hard to compare yourself to that level of success and not feel like you're not good enough or somehow don't measure up. But I was also super happy for her as an author and it gave me hope that any author can achieve that kind of success one day. It's important to note that she's been writing and publishing books for like ten years, so this was by no means an overnight success thing for her. Anyway, I loved your video and I'd love to see you do more discussion type videos of other books you read or have read.
Totally valid! I love shifting it from comparison to aspiration, like "someday that's how far I could get!" haha that helps me :) But totally understand feeling those feels too, you're not alone. Glad you enjoyed the video, thank you!
I’m 68 and I’ve been an avid reader since 6th grade. I have gone through many book reading phases. From wholesome (Nancy Drew), to spice (Fourth Wing), to second chance (widowed person falls in love again), to pure Science Fiction and Fantasy. The last two have always been favorites and I like the character and world building the most. Too much spice in a Sci Fi or Fantasy takes away from my enjoyment. I want closed door spice and lots of action scenes. I enjoyed Fourth Wing and I’ve read it twice. The second time I skipped the spice. Although titillating, it did not enhance the plot. Iron Wing I DNF’d at the 70% mark. What turned me off was what happened AFTER the throne room spice scene. Both characters had to attend meetings. They quickly dressed and ran to their meetings. No mention of washing at least their face and hands. 🤮 All I could think was that it would be good if their neighbors at their meetings had no sense of smell. Ick…ick…ICK!
I also prefer stories with a minimal amount of F-bombs. Taking religious names in vain really tick me off. They are also off-putting when used in a sci fi or fantasy world that does not recognize earth deities. 🤔
Cursing in a military type story is almost to be expected. I can forgive F bombs in these situations, but not in other genres.
Thanks for your input as an author. I find that very interesting.😊
I guess I need to try on this one again. I DNF last year, set it down early actually (after a few eye rolls on my part) . I just felt it was not the beautiful writing I wanted to spend my time reading. But for the same reasons as you, I will try again and get through it. It is good to know what people want to read, and then if we can do it better, all the ... better!
Thank you for sharing this perspective. I loved the books. I’m not too turned off by typos unless they are just overbearing. But hearing you discuss this makes me understand why I love fantasy books so much. Spoiler alert!! I was very surprised by the ending in Iron Flame. Was not expecting that and I feel so bad for Xaden already! I feel like I would love to have the next book from his perspective so we can truly feel this madness he will go thru wanting to drain more magic. Again thanks for this review!
I loved both books. My writing buddies and I noticed she had hooks at the front and end of chapters. She also had a mantra “I’m not going to die today.”
Oooh that's a really intriguing observation, love that!
I loved both of these books. I’m not a huge fantasy reader, and I’m not big into “spice”, but the story really hooked me. I couldn’t put either of these down. Because of this series, I’m actually reading more fantasy and enjoying them.
I think so many of the negative reviews are “personal” and completely unrelated to the actual books.
Love that! I think that's a sign they're well done for sure :) And I honestly think the negative reviews point out fair stuff, it's just that the things they mention don't hold that much weight for me, while it holds a lot of weight for them, if that makes sense? :)
And then there are those who will hate on something everyone else loves just to try to make themselves look superior, like their taste is so refined that the rest of us cannot even fathom why they hate it and, of course, they're right because they are superior!
I wasn't going to read these books, but now you've intrigued me.
If you read them, hope you enjoy!
I'm planning onreading them but I haven't yet. I'm very curious if you will continue this kind of content because I find it very interesting.
That's so encouraging to hear, I'd love to do more content like this, thank you! And hope you enjoy them if you decide to read!
Wow, Bethany you rock girl! I'm an 80 year old fantasy lover, especially with Dragons or Wyverns! Why Wyverns? Well think about nature, how many birds have four legs? Wyverns are the answer period.
I have not read these two books yet, now I can't wait to get started. You have a wonderful style of reviewing, you tell both the good and the bad.
I haven't read them yet as I put them away as a Christmas present. 🎁 Most Christmas's I like to put aside some books for myself as a good job for finishing a novel throughout the year, which I start in the new year! Reading good and bad books helps a writer to understand what does and doesn't work. Well, it does me! As for your own books Bethany, yours are the only YA books that I enjoy, others are much darker and contain more themes for NA really. Be proud of yourself as an author, you are doing brilliant
If you read them, hope you enjoy! Love that Christmas present strategy too haha... And thank you so much, I really appreciate that!
Never read them because I'm not into academy style stories but I loved your take on it and all your author talk about it and what makes a best seller. I've always felt like it's a lot of catering and I write what I wanna read first so I'm always worried I'll never get there because of it.
Thanks Joanna, that means a lot, glad you enjoyed it. And writing what you love is a good way to reach readers who will love the same type of content so keep rocking it!
INTJ here (who also mentally edits the books I read) and I'm turned off by high emotion. So, the fact that this book has inspired so much makes me want to intellectualize it. 🙂I might read it in German (the German blurb is slightly different from the English blurb) to improve my German literacy rather than get caught up in what seems silly to me. Liking or not liking something is very individual and can change even within one person over time. Authors should have their own North Star that directs their work and not get too caught up in reader likes or dislikes. They're important, but not all important. It's true that no book is perfect for everyone, but any book can be perfect, just the way it is, for someone.
You have some really awesome characters! My fav remains Rena and her fish sayings 🐠
Aww yay! Thank you so much! :D
I agree with all the one star reviews. There was some god awful contradictions and repetition. BUT... I enjoyed it immensely. At the end of the day, that's why I'm reading Fantasy. I'm not looking for learning experience, it's for the enjoyment. I once had a music teacher say to me, "What makes a good singer?" Turns out, it's whether they are able to incite feeling/emotion from their audience. These books did that for me.
I had a similar reaction and as an English teacher, I tend to get bothered by bad writing and editing. However, I really enjoyed the heck out of this book. I also was perplexed by the hate and started to wonder if I was wrong. But , like you, if I can't put a book down it is emotionally a good book.
Yesss! You summarized very well what took me over 25 minutes to say haha, I agree!
I read Fourth Wing because I like dragons and the setting of the dragon riding school seemed intriguing. The other thing that had my attention was the “enemies to lovers “ hook that the book’s marketing used. What does Xaden do that qualifies him as an enemy?
I thought the enemies to lovers made total sense? There was a war where they were literally on opposite sides - if that doesn't qualify, I don't know what does haha! But everyone including the MC also assumed he was planning to kill her for half the book, and even if that wasn't actually the case, she considered him her enemy the whole time. I know other people have questioned this trope, but I just don't get why at all lol
Thanks for responding. Xaden (if my memory is correct) never tries to harm Violet out of an antagonistic way. They spar and train but it’s mostly other people saying that their enemies. Xaden never does anything really villainous. If ominous warnings and vague threats are the only reason someone is an enemy, that just seems like a childish way of thinking.
Would you consider Romeo and Juliet an enemies to lovers story?
Quick edit for the previous post. When I said childish, I meant child-like.
I have not read these books yet. You have intrigued me.
If you read them, hope you enjoy!
I’m glad I found this channel. There is so much hate thrown at fourth wing, none of the reactors seem to like it on you tube. I actually really enjoyed it.
I think it’s a great starter book for fantasy. Easy to follow. It does have some very common tropes and the first book was very predictable imo but I did not see the ending coming for the iron flame. I agree completely with the pacing. I think it’s excellent. I was a tad bored in the beginning of both books but they both picked up after the first few chapters. Is the writing amazing? No. But I don’t think it has to be to be entertaining.
I’m a little surprised they took off so well though. While I think they are both good books, I wouldn’t say they are worthy of the hype. But I also don’t find many hyped books worthy.
I think they did so well because they were easy to follow for everyone but just geared towards fantasy readers.
I will say the two spicy scenes in fourth wing was kind of ridiculous 😂
Comments on Fourth Wing from an author perspective with tips about being an author
I agree about the world building aspect how Yarros only includes details if it’s relevant. Like Garth Nix did in the Abhorsen series as opposed to someone like Martin or Tolkien who created entire languages, ethnicities and cultures for their books.
I went into reading this book expect for a strong focus on it being a romance drama, with romance drama tropes, and some good spicy scenes with some dragons to set the stage.
Think about all the various romantic comedies and romantic drama movies we have - they follow tropes, formulas, and find the right strings of tension to pull. They are often formulaic and predictable. But dang, do we like them because it strikes a chord for the drama we remember when we’re young. I mean, that’s really it. Sexual tension with a rival is fun, and yes, often formulaic.
I did not read this book for it to be thematically rich and intellectual thought provoking, I read it for fun with a fun fantasy backdrop with a romance plot.
Anyways I appreciate your video I think you are making a good point about how this author was careful to design this for a certain audience and general asks that are around for a story.
I havent read them yet mostly because I want the hype to die down first for both books so I can truly enjoy it and not feel others perspectives influencing my view of the book. The buzz around Fourth Wing reminds me of when 50 Shades of Grey became popular and it wasn't the best of writing (Constant, Inner goddess etc through out the book) but a lot of people couldn't put it down. I feel alot of the buzz when it comes to books becoming popular I believe it's more of a right place right time. I remember trad author (Alexa Dunn) mentioned that every publishing house has a select number of books that they pour a lot of money into marketing and the rest of the books they sign while they get marketing it's definitely no where close to their selected books they deem "worthy" of putting a lot of money into.
Totally fair! And that's a really good reminder about how publishing houses do choose to specifically put more money behind certain books, I have a feeling they definitely put more than normal into this book!
Yes, i read ..listened to both of them on audiobook and LOVED them. ❤I’m a newbie author (3 books published). I was impressed and blown away by the world building!! I’m dying to re-read them but my TBR is tooo long to re-read right now 😂And I fell in love with Xaden Riorson🙈❤
That's awesome, love that! And Xaden is awesome, I agree haha! :D
My son and I just started reading this book together...well we read seperatly and then we discuss. Like a mini book club 😂 We're both enjoying it.
22:04 I'm not sure if im bored with my book or if i am just really depressed. I'm suffering from ppd
so sorry to hear that! Definitely get help if you have post partum depression, that's no joke and you should take care of yourself first before the book!
@BethanyAtazadeh i am seeking help, its just difficult because everyone wants to defer it to the other dr. OB wants me to confer with PcP but pcp wants to refer me to mental health but i don't think its that far
I think the writing is the way it is because, because its not a neutral narratior every line her own observations, you notice more when the dragon starts responding to descriptive lines
I have not read it yet. Because idk if the book is clean. I don’t read books with cussing and spicy scenes. Is this one clean? I’d love to try it. I’ve heard great things. 😊
I’ll be super honest with you, it’s not at all. It has the f bomb on almost every page (which thank goodness the author did a lot less in book 2, but it’s a LOT), and there are two very spicy scenes. So just want to warn you, it doesn’t sound like it’d be a good fit, I’m sorry :(
@@BethanyAtazadehI just got to that part of the video. Thank you. :)
100% characters instead of plot 🙂. I'm planning on writing a few shorts focusing on character, just to get my mind in the right place for my next story. I'm reading a webtoon right now where the plot sort of goes all over the place, like the author wasn't sure what this story was going to be, but the characters grow and develop so much that you absolutely love them and want to root for them in whatever situation they get themselves into 😊
Characters have such a powerful impact after reading, whereas I almost always forget plot haha... so I agree! That's an awesome idea to focus on that!
While I read Fourth Wing and enjoyed it, I did find it to be lacking in depth. But my major issue as an Irish (Gaeilge) speaker is the author’s appropriation of Scots Gaelic. The video of her that went sort of viral where she was saying “well that’s how I pronounce it” while she was incorrectly pronouncing words from a real language that is still spoken really did not sit right with me. I see this happening with the Irish language too. Minority languages are not something you can just use to make your fantasy story have a cute aesthetic. If you’re going to use them, use them correctly or just make up your own language.
Thankfully, from what I remember of reading Bethany’s books, I feel like she is an example of someone who has used a language and culture outside of her own to inspire her books in a respectful way.
I think I saw that video you're talking about too, and then I found a breakdown of some of the differences between the languages - it was fascinating! I can't speak for anyone else, but I definitely wasn't aware of the differences so I would guess Rebecca didn't do it intentionally at all... That said, I really appreciate that you feel that way about my books and I 1,000% try to be respectful when including words/references to other cultures, I think when they're done well they can be a really cool thing for readers of those cultures to see!
Hey Beth! So, I also went into it because of all the bad reviews, but people who review books don't know the blood sweat and tears authors have when writing books. I am writing my own and I am in the same boat. That said, people were saying she stole ideas from other books. The thing is, whether she did or didn't, tell me an author who has an original story; all authors do the same. Maybe she did it better and that's why they are hating on it, but for me, I am reading her book without the other books in mind and I loved it apart from chapter 1 which took me an entire hour to read it because it was so much detail I had to stop and follow who was who; she could have stopped the chapter in 3 parts to give us the readers a chance to enjoy meeting the characters gradually. I have yet to read book 2 but I will. I loved this book (book 1).
That's so interesting to hear you had a similar perspective! But glad you enjoyed the first book, and hope you enjoy the second too!
@@BethanyAtazadeh I'm saving to read it during Christmas time so I can have a fantasy book to look forward too :)
I really appreciate you honing in on, "As an author, what can I take away from reading this book - what worked, what didn't, and how can I translate that into improvements in my own writing."
Thank you so much, I'm glad you appreciate the point of the video!
It is honestly very encouraging that something so well liked is also... not liked. You know? Also, is listening to reviews (in the longer scheme of things) all that different than listening to beta readers? I'm currently about half way through Iron Flame audiobook. But trying to get stuff done is cutting into my time 'reading' it. lol
I have both and do plan to read them. Being very, very far behind in my author stuff, I need to take a step back from reading books. I look at all reviews but they don't really influence me buying a book. At the end of the day, I read a book if something about it interests me. And I ALWAYS finish a book once I start it. I understand people DNFing books, but I never do. I believe there is always something in a book to keep me reading. Since I love dragons, I want to read these books.
Totally understandable - hope you enjoy them when you get a chance to read! And that's a good point, I usually don't read reviews either and honestly I usually regret it when I do haha... All the hate for books really ruins the fun when most books have tons of redeemable qualities.
I loved those books. I can't wait for the rest to come out. The hate some authors get is what scares me. I'm afraid of that happening when I publish my own. Especially as a first book. I think it's one reason why it's taking me so long to finish edits. I keep going over it. Lol
Yay me too! Yeah it's a little scary when people go too far in general... like, it's just a book lol! But I promise they're the minority, most people are very kind in reviews. That said, if you can forget about other people's opinions during most of your edits that will also help you write the book for you too!
This was such a fun video. For me, these books leave me satisfied as a reader, but confounded as a writer. I genuinely liked them more than I expected. They scratched the itch I was hoping Zodiac Academy would (fun, fast-paced, steamy, dramatic, trash-TV-type of book). I can look past some less than excellent writing and under-developed themes. It was a fun ride, and I am super on board for the next installment.
That said though, as a writer, I’m not sure what I can take away from the success of Fourth Wing. I believe Rebecca Yarros is a talented, seasoned writer, but not a phenomenal one. So, good story, check. But that extra sprinkle of magic? I don’t see it.
Moving on to her characters, I found them to be generic vessels to bring the plot from point to point, often used as emotional bargaining chips to barter with the reader. “See this adorable, sweet character? Aren’t you soooo scared I’m going to kill them?” I don’t like that at all, I have no intention of replicating that in my stories.
And the world-building, as a reader, was fine. I didn’t mind it much. But as a writer, I’m almost annoyed to see RY “get away” with what I find to be cheap world-building. To reiterate, I do not begrudge her world-building choices as a reader. But I think doing most of the world building in a convenient classroom setting is painfully overdone and cheap at this point. I get that people hate info-dumping, but what if I don’t want to write about a teeny bopper sitting at a school desk? Convenient for world-building, but not impressive from the perspective of a writer who has tried for years to learn good world-building without using the crutch of a classroom.
All in all, the books are not for everyone but they were just what I needed! I totally understand the criticism but I do think it’s a bit over the top. RY is by no means a bad writer. But my personal standards for my own future published works are very high. I am impressed by her and her success, but I wouldn’t look to her as someone to emulate.
I like that description of reading it! And you make a good point about the writing side of it - what made it special if not the author/writing style? Perhaps the "special something" was the connections she and her publisher had in the book world? Or possibly a certain marketing strategy that took off? I'm super curious, but don't have the answers just yet... might have to do a follow up video haha! But I think you described both sides well!
1-star reviews are a badge of honour for authors (and I say that as someone who has 5 novels out in the world, both trad and indie) - if you're not getting any, it means your book isn't being read widely enough. Plus, they usually say more about the reviewer than the book - I got a DNF from one person who didn't like that there was a tarot-reading scene, which I'm sure would actually be a plus for other readers 😀
I probably won't read Fourth Wing, because I overdosed on Anne McCaffery's Pern series growing up, and am distinctly meh about dragons as a result - my first self-published book is called "The Dead Dragon Job" 😂 But I do like to know what the rest of the world is reading!
I've heard that before too, and I like it in theory but they still don't feel very good haha... But that's a very good point that it just shows how art is subjective. And totally fair to skip reading if it's not for you!
This whole review situation reminds me of what happened with ACOTAR where there were equal amounts of good and bad reviews all at the same time
Oh yeah, I wasn't reading reviews back when that came out, but I can only imagine it was probably very similar! I personally am one of the rare people who doesn't love ACOTAR funny enough, but I still was able to read it and appreciate the things that people loved about it! :)
The swear words in Fourth Wing were a real turn off for me! I don't think I made it through my three chapter test before putting it back in the return pile. I also wasn't a fan of the fact that she was almost immediately engaged in what could be considered a "scandalous" situation with the old friend, which could have led to rumors/gossip and whatnot. Just wasn't my cup of tea, but I enjoyed hearing what you had to say.
I honestly think this book series was as popular as it is because (1) it reads like a typical trope-driven hetero fanfiction romance, and (2) the marketing push. When i was reading it first, i was really disappointed, but the deeper i got, the more i realized why it wasn't for me, and why it also felt familiar. I've read a lot of fanfiction, though mostly lgbtq stuff, which while similar to het, has significant enough differences in plotting and characterization priorities to feel meaningfully different. But i have read a fair share of both, and Fourth Wing reads like het fanfiction in its use of tropes, the pacing, the way it shifts focus across characterization, observations, dialogue, worldbuilding,etc, the quick and dirty application of tension, as well as the arcs in general.
This isn't a bad thing, it just wasn't what i expected, but maybe that's just a recent shift in the market, and what some pubs are asking authors to prioritize? Given the popularity of fanfiction and that generations of readers have now enjoyed fanfics, i think this may have tapped into a reading experience many have left behind due to stigma, but now there's this book that gives that back to the readers, but it's published, its "legitimate".
And i think that can also cause a clash of expectations. In readers who read a lot of romance, there's bound to be more forgiveness than those who might have approached this as the fastasy novel it was sometimes remarked on as being, when this is a very different reading experience compared to typical fantasy, which is where ive seen most negative revuews from (and is also why i wasnt a fan, i went in expecting more of a typical fantasy, and im also not huge on het fanfics typically)
I usually love fantasy, but had a hard time getting through Fourth Wing. It just wasn't plausible that a civilization that needed to desperately defend themselves from a foe, would kill off most of their youth--or fighters. It didn't have a hunger games reason to kill off citizens. Where was the family revolts for cavalierly killing off their children--so many? I never felt the POV character was particularly sympathetic, either. I didn't get the hype.
Totally fair to feel that way! :)
I never reviewed it but I struggled to get into it. For me I felt the training scenes bogged the pacing for me. I did not off the wall hate it, I just didnt love it. The ending of Fourth Wing also bothered me and some of the world details kinda were hard to swallow. For example, you live in a world where you need dragons and riders to stay alive...in essence...then the school just allows them to be killed left and right--it didnt make sense so it was hard for me. I am not bashing her book in anyway, the book is loved it was just not quite for me I think. I have not read the new one yet because of that.
Totally valid opinions, thanks for sharing! :)
I gave it three stars. My main problem was the lack of believable world building.
I haven't read Fourth Wing. It was on me tbr, but I've been told by more than one person it is on the explicit side and I tend to prefer that the bedroom door stay firmly closed when I'm reading. If other people are enjoying the story, good for them. I'm glad there is another fantasy book hooking people.
Yeah there are two extremely explicit scenes and a third that's on the way, so that's good that you knew they weren't a good fit for you - I've also seen some fun trends like "clean books you'd if you wanted to read fourth wing but didn't want the spice" so maybe those will give you some similar reads! :D
@@BethanyAtazadeh I've seen those trends too! The clean & wholesome corner of Instagram is exploding! It's great :)
I think you nailed it with, "You can't please everyone." I think this book was written for a very specific audience who loves specific tropes, and then the book blew up because that audience tends to be pretty huge. But then, when a book like that blows up, it lands in the hands of people who would never have read it, it's not meant for them, and they obviously hate it. And then it snowballs into this club of people all ganging up and hating a book together and it's like a reverse fandom?? It doesn't make it a bad book, it's just not a book for everyone. A book that appeals to everyone will never exist. I haven't actually read the book, because I don't think it's for me, but I am still super curious about it because people are either super into or spending copious amounts of their time hating on it.
Thank you, I really appreciate that a lot! You make a lot of good points haha, it's really funny how strongly some people hate it!
@@BethanyAtazadeh I think a lot of the hate comes from jealousy. lol Whether it's writers who think they're better and just didn't hit that lucky marketing jackpot, or readers who have their own personal faves that don't get hyped and they're left bewildered why a book they don't like is so popular.
I don't think tropes make a page-turner... though they may increase reader engagement. Conflict makes a page-turner, suspense regarding a question the reader cares about. The author has that job: make the readers care about something and then threaten it. The other thing I've noticed is that readers have varying tolerance for darkness in a book. Some will hate it if there's too much "sweet" (wish-fulfillment, romance) and some will hate it if there's too much bitter (suffering, character flaws, death). It's probably a good idea to go down the middle, but you can't please everyone.
I haven't finished IF and i had a ridiculous hangover after Fourth Wing. I am a picky reader though
The book I'm writing is Dude with a problem for sure.
Totally fair! And that's so fun that you're writing a similar trope!
Reviews always reflect “The Man, the Boy, and the Donkey” from Aesop's Fables: you cannot please everyone so you shouldn't try. It's probably best to write the story you would want to read, because a large enough portion of the population has similar taste and will enjoy it.
But I always remember what Tolkien said about negative reviews in the forward to The Fellowship of the Ring: "Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing that they evidently prefer."
To each their own. :)
pacing - I haven't read about it in a while so I forget the details of it, but K.M. Weiland had a post on what she called "scenes and sequels", which I might refer to as "active scenes and reactive scenes" or "event scenes and consequence scenes" ("sequel" makes me think of the next book in a series). If the story is non-stop action it will be fast-paced but there'll be no pause for the audience to get to know the characters (not good for character-driven readers) when they react to what just happened and decide what they need to do next (like taking their turn in a chess match). Conversely, action fans find a period piece (Downton, Austen) boring because they see it as "just people talking", because it has a slower pace with more character reaction to events. Having too many "action" scenes makes the story too fast-paced, having too many "reaction/planning" scenes makes the story too slow-paced. Finding the balance for your taste or your genre can be tricky.
pacing - Be deliberate about chapter breaks. My instinct is always to tell a story chronologically and transparently, because I'm so strongly an outliner. But you can't reveal all secrets to the reader from the get go or there's no mystery and people love mystery and twists, which require withholding of information (kind of "the reader wants to be lied to", just a little). Along with that, it's an instinct (for a lot of people, I think) to break a chapter when a scene comes to a close, but if you put a chapter break in the middle of a fight scene or chase scene, that's a cliffhanger and makes the reader want to keep going instead of stopping at the end of the chapter.
"kill your darlings" - I've long seen it as "if this idea/scene you love is in conflict with the rest of your plot or character development/arc, the small idea needs to be scrapped for the good of the whole." Sadly, some people see it as "do I LOVE this? Well, then it's a darling and I need to get rid of it." and then that sucks the story dry of what made you want to write it (because that's what you would want as a reader) in the first place. Maybe it's better to look at it as finding the path of most coherent darlings: if you construct a story you love, it's because it has many ingredients you love (like the butter book concept). So the darlings that need to be scrapped are the ones that create plot holes or redirect the path away from all the other things you love that are working well together.
I might be rambling at this point so I'll stop typing. :)
Lots of good takeaways and thoughts here, thank you! :)
I think bad reviews are sometimes valid, and some bad reviews are people just jumping on a band wagon to hate on something popular
(As someone who has petty-disliked some movies as a kid and now am like "wtf why?" I know there has to be others who do this on popular things).
Haha so true, or if they felt neutral about it, the other negative reviews tip them over the edge
tbh, I have no desire reading something as hyped as Fourth Wing. I hate to rush my books; you'll always miss something important in your books. I can't begin to count how many times I missed something in books and my beta-reader/editor would always tell me 'hey, this happened in your book, remember?' but yet again, I take a year between my books to write for each them, so I would forget. I would LOVE to have my indie book reach that kind of stardom. It would be amazing to work with Marvel since mine is a superheroine. Marketing is tough, esp. for a superhero book...
Totally fair opinion, and yeah it's so tough to remember our entire worlds, especially when we typically change things throughout editing haha!
I personally did not love Fourth Wing. I WANTED to get lost in the dragon world building but there were too many things about the book that I did not like and I ended up trudging through to the end. However, I am not spreading hate on the book, author or publisher OR the readers that enjoyed it. This is the reality of trend. Some books will go viral, some won't. The books I do love - is the writing phenomenal? Probably not - but I got lost into the world and identified with the characters. That is how it is. It is interesting though that you said you saw a lot of negative comments about the book - I have not. At least not Fourth Wing - Iron Flame seems to be getting more negative reviews. But all the posts that show up in my feed are readers and authors that absolutely loved Fourth Wing. I also love to go through books and think about the 'why'? Why did I love this book? Why didn't I love about this book? How would I do it differently? etc.
Some of the one star reviews highlight legitimate issues in the book, like aspects of the military training that make no sense. I was hoping you were going to read some of those reviews and give your opinion because I too honestly don't understand how this book has this much hype yet has serious editing and world-building issues. I guess it's related to what you said at the start of the video that the story could be just very engaging but poorly written (for whatever reason like deadlines)
That's a very good point, there are definitely things that readers point out that are real issues. That said, I wanted to veer away from a "reader review" and stick to "author review" which isn't about putting down the story things that didn't work for me as a person and more of a high-level analysis style video of what did/didn't work from an author perspective, if that makes sense? :)
I didn't like either book (now at 85% of Iron Flame). Kept on reading to see what the fuss was about.
Being chosen by the most powerful dragon (and a second dragon), plus her extraordinary signet power, makes her a chosen one, not a normal dudette with a problem.
Best thing about the books are the dragons. Fourth Wing came alive after the dragons appeared.
Pacing is decent. Could be faster. Too much unnecessary detail in some scenes. Too many unnecessary scenes. Overall, books are too long and a chore to get through because of the length. Iron Flame is over 200,000 words.
The mortal jeopardy is cartoonish, not believable. Cadets killing each other, "friendly" dragons killing cadets. Promising concept but it didn't feel real because the characters didn't react appropriately. The cadets were fooling around while parading in front of the dragons for the first time, even though they knew the dragon could kill them. If I knew my fellow cadets could kill me, I would be a paranoid nervous wreck.
The riders' signet powers seemed tacked on, not well integrated into the world. Better integrated in Iron Flame but still felt arbitrary, a checklist item.
They don't seem to use birth control, but are not worried about unwanted pregnancy.
The massive conspirary didn't make sense.
Too many supporting charaters. I couldn't remember a lot of them. Somehow I didn't even care for the main characters.
Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing!
I feel the same way reading these books. I felt like the author should have taken a little bit more time making this series feel more cohesive due the some of the reasons that you mentioned above.
Buzz gets books sold on a mass scale. You could start small, locally and it can spread. In combination with social media reach and an outside marketing budget (meaning purchasing ads, newsletter signups, etc.), the buzz gets louder. That's nearly the ideal scenario. In tradpub there's also top-down marketing--the publishing house and/or someone famous spreads the news you're a fantabulous writer and their following should buy your book.
As for reviews: One- and two-star reviews are venomous and personally toxic to boot. The reviewer usually means the writer emotional harm. Unless the writing is literally (pardon the pun) extraordinarily bad, it doesn't warrant the author's time to look at it much. They just need to improve their skills and move on.
[Edited to add: Thanks for mentioning the F-bombs--they completely throw me out of fantasy books and out of sci-fi if it's an alien speaking or if it's set in another time. Taking the time to invent in-world curses is very important to my reader experience. I'm glad you liked the series so far, though! Sounds like the story's worth reading overall.]
I haven't read the book, but I do wanna point out, cause you said it a lot in the video ...this doesn't have a lot of bad ratings/reviews.
I mean, you show it (1:33). It has over 780k ratings, with a 4.6 average...
There's no way anyone should be interpreting that as a lot of bad reviews. Its average rating is overwhelming 5 stars.
I find it interesting that a small segment of readers had you questioning if you should skip reading the book. I wonder if it's your author's perspective that makes you give more weight to the negative reviews. I feel like we all do that with our own work. But I hope the author considers that rating an achievement.
Yes, the offended on the author’s behalf! When I read reviews of Wishtress where readers said they couldn’t follow the complex world, I was like what is wrong with people?? It’s not that hard lol. Good to keep in mind as an author. I sometimes think the more success, the more people enjoy hating on them. I want to read Fourth Wing but was concerned about the gratuitousness, from this video it sounds not that bad?
Oh yeah 100%, the more someone does well, the more haters they will draw, that's an unfortunate truth! I guess I can see some of the negatives that people point out, but the difference is, they don't hold much weight for me, while they really bother other people, so it's really subjective? That said, I really enjoyed Fourth Wing, and Iron Flame while not as great was still enjoyable too... curious to hear what you think if you decide to read!
I wasn’t a fan I listened to book 1 I did have many issues after wanting to like this book. Character development, world building, love story was not great (the love triangle was not really one) those are a few
I DNF’d fourth wing but I admit the writing was really good I just got to the spice and that’s not for me I admit the story is really good though!
I just finished the first book, and I started off really excited and intrigued, and then it turned into "he's so hawt" story and it was pretty unbearable for me. At the same time, there hasn't been a Fantasy Romance saga in a while, so I get the appeal, but it just isn't for me and I won't be going further. lol
I wan reding the 1ts book and your BB lovs the hgdbc on weekend do the BB.
what? i'm not following lol
Also im a 34 year old guy and i thought it was real good
For me, like what you like. Reading those books is better than not reading. But let's not pretend that they're well-written pieces of art, when they're what I saw another authortuber call the Shein of publishing. 🤷♀ We can acknowledge good/new ideas and an entertaining story while simultaneously acknowledging a poor execution. I think the success of this series is because of a few things: catching the right (young) market at the right time (rise of romantasy) with fun marketing (on SM). At the end of the day, we all want and like different things in our books. As readers, we can love it. As critics of good writing, we can dislike it. And it's fine.
I like that point about reading these is better than not reading. I think you make some good points about the timing being right and good marketing.
@@BethanyAtazadeh I feel like the most difficult thing is knowing that there are far better books out there with 1/100th of the marketing and hype which will be overlooked because of the popularity of this book. But few of us go into writing expecting to get rich, right? Right?! 😆
I thought the first one was decent pop dystopian romance. Good hooks, intriguing characters, compelling mystery. I’d give it 3.5 stars.
I didn’t even finish the second one. I’m completely over it. Boring over dramatic tension, over the top and frankly unbelievable violence, which pokes way too many holes in the world and social economy, and characters who are stagnant in an annoying, obnoxious way. I don’t want to spoil things, but the artificial romantic conflict is just beyond old and illogical at this point.
I don’t know if I’ll go back and finish or not. I loved the end of book one and the opening chapters of book two, but it then got really old really fast. It’s hard to enjoy a book when the main characters become really annoying.
I personally would never buy a book from an author who thinks Fourth Wing (or Lightlark, for that matter) is good. If an author cannot even recognize the flaws in someone else’s work, I don’t trust their work either.
Like, there’s a lack of dragon riders and a dangerous war going on, but they’re killing off students for the dumbest reasons at the school. The MC has a serious disability that never affects her in any way. Somehow, nobody ever thought about putting a saddle on a dragon. The months in the book are the same as the months in real life, meaning the Roman Empire apparently existed in this fantasy world. There is modern slang like ‘endgame’.
It’s just embarrassing for traditional publishing as a whole that this is what we get now. No quality control, no developmental editors anymore, just rush it out and TikTok teens will eat it up. This book is famous only because of the marketing and because people who never read fantasy before think that this is what fantasy is like. The publisher was literally looking for authors to write a long fantasy series to cash in on the House of the Dragon hype. They even sent out tons of botched copies of Iron Flame. There is no love in this series, just profit.
I guess I’m too knowledgeable on the craft of writing to enjoy things like this, but at least my books will look like insanely high quality in comparison to Fourth Wing. It’ll be hard to do worse than Fourth Wing or Lightlark. The bar is currently in hell 😂
Edit to add: readswithrachel and Julian Greystoke both did amazing breakdowns of Fourth Wing. Lightlark was also covered by both of them, and Crow Caller and Crimson Rogue have amazing breakdowns of Lightlark as well.
You're entitled to your opinion! Mine is that a smart author can learn from ANY author, good or bad, and especially take some notes on an author succeeding the way Rebecca Yarros is. It might be humbling if you think you're better, but she's the one with far more sales and the hype always starts with a foundation of true enjoyment. A smart author will be able to separate their emotions from the facts.
You can read and enjoy bad books and learn from them. I just personally draw the line at calling her books ‘good’. There are a lot of books with major flaws that I love and enjoy. I just don’t think it reflects well on you as an author to make vague praises about the book and point out none of the flaws (except typos).
Again, she has more sales because she’s an industry plant. Requirements for getting famous as an author on TikTok are: 1) white (passing), 2) woman, 3) upper (middle) class, 4) conventionally attractive, 5) uses the trope where not-actually-a-villain falls in love with self insert MC, 6) throw A LOT of cash at marketing.
Most good books don’t get famous because they don’t have money for marketing and they’re not done in quick succession. I know a lot of indie writers write quickly, for example, but they do sacrifice a degree of quality for this (because they know quality is unnecessary for profit, just enjoyment).
Always recognize the flaws of a work and learn from them, don’t just mindlessly praise it because it’s famous. I think you’re trying to attract Fourth Wing fans to your works with this video, I guess, and I hope that works out for you. I was personally just kind of disappointed by it because this could have been educational both ways, rather than just praise 😅
Came back to add to this, because I just watched James Tullos most recent video and realized the actual main problem with Fourth Wing: it’s erotica, not fantasy romance. I was tricked into consuming p*rn when I did not want to, which is very triggering for an asexual person with PTSD. Fourth Wing should be marketed as erotica with a shallow fantasy backdrop; I think most of the people leaving negative reviews would never have even read it if it had been marketed correctly. Now, there is a lot of shaming in society about reading erotica, so a lot of people who loved Fourth Wing would thus also never have read it, plus teenagers would have a harder time getting their hands on it.
All of the above still rings true as well, of course, but if it had been marketed correctly, it would not have mattered, because the goal of erotica is not to do decent worldbuilding or build deep friendships and romances, it’s just to get people off.
So... That’s what we can learn, I guess. Erotica generally sells better than other genres, so, write erotica! 😂
From a slightly different perspective, an older millennial, these felt like the author was trying to write a newer version of Dragon Riders of Pern, but done pretty badly. I can see soooo many similarities and it hurts… Also someone who enjoys the cultural and political parts of world building and the politics in the book just didn’t make any sense and it was hard to care. I can see why it is popular but I don’t think you should compare yourself to that writing. I am extremely picky and your queen’s rise was very good and one of my only 5 star reads for 2023. I don’t think you should stuff soo many tropes that the book that it doesn’t makes sense just to be popular… but that is just my take.❤❤❤
That means so much to hear you think so highly of The Queen's Rise series, thank you so much!!
I won’t be reading. I read a book from her that ended up being really sad, but also shallow with no nuance at all. It was like she woke up one day and thought, ‘I’m going to write a sad book.’ And she did. But it had zero depth.
Also - love the dissection of the book you give.
Totally fair, and glad you liked the video, thank you! :)
@@BethanyAtazadehYou’re welcome! I already know I don’t like her style, so I would anticipate not liking this book. And I don’t like to ‘hate’ read. Unless I have a really good reason. 😂 So far, I have never.
You should link the channel to this trailer and not just use this content
Huh?? I’m super confused by this, no idea what you mean lol
I have no interest in the fairytale re-telling genre. But I really like YOU! I look forward to watching the videos you make and thoroughly enjoy them. As a writer who has yet to turn my attention to writing a novel, I learn a lot from what you share on your author's journey. Thank you for taking the time to make these videos and sharing your thoughts, ideas and analysis. I appreciate you.
Thank you so much, I appreciate that!