I feel it's so important to note that it's Raziel's voluntary submission to the Reaver that makes all the difference. All the two do in Defiance is to correct their own fates. Mobius and others have sought to accelerate their encounters, fights and deaths so they cannot purify Kain to allow new guardians to be born.
These are so great. I've been a fan since the release of BO1, I was around on Nosgoth.net for years, and know all of this stuff. I'll still watch it all though. Please keep these coming.
Your explanation has managed to let fans finally fathom the secrets and doubts behind these timelines. I was also dubious regarding many details I couldn't understand, but now everything makes sense. Thank you so much, Raina, you did such a great job for every Lok fan :D
I only recently discovered your channel but I’m loving it. I see I have a nice backlog of videos to look forward to (13 years!). 8D I hope this Arcane Tomes series continues. Thanks for all you do!
This was my exact thought in the Vorador video... And yes. Here as well. I guess it is better when placed in the largest context of the amazing series it belongs to
ah the Nosgoth's timeline, personally i think that's one of the most fascinating aspects of the entire LoK saga and the one that separates its story from all the rest.. paradoxes, illusion of freewill. Awesome job as always guys!, kudos for dealing with one of the most amazing topics from the LoK saga!
Thank you for this video. I've always loved the story of this series but the timeline was challenging to keep up with. I appreciate all of the detail and the effort in clearing it up. I guess its not the timeline I would have wanted (I still would like to see a complete version of the original Soul Reaver), but it's the timeline we have, and I guess there's no changing it.
This was a well explained video. I played thru all the games as a kid but I didnt remember all the details. I appreciate the good work. Yes, I subscribed for more.
Love your Legacy of Kain content! Very cool for bedtime because I listen 5 min. and I'm gone. But the content is that good written if you listen and concentrate you are so deep in story on focus that you fall asleep!
Thanks! The latest Tomes have been recorded with a new mic so the audio quality should be better. Haha, I let Baz know his voice is good to fall asleep to, lol! 😅👍
Absolutely! It's lonely to be invested in this story alone. I love watching Nosgoth's lore videos, especially the ones that are well made like these ones!!
you know I was working on making a timeline video like I understand everything how the evens happened to even more of an extent of what most lok fans would I was setting up a timeline on photoshop so it was easy to understand for anyone watching but I found vocalizing what I've known about the timeline difficult and work and life kept drawing my attention elsewhere so I'm glad you guys put together the video we need at least 1 video describing the timeline maybe one day I might finish it was hoping to use it as a foundation to some of my lok theories or just random lok thoughts videos one thing to note is in the timeline where Raziel kills kain at the tomb of William the just Moebius wouldn't send Raziel to the future in an attempt to fuel his hatred for kain since he would have already have killed him there would be no need to so Moebius would have most likely sent him to the time he requested to see janos and with no kain around raziel would be absorbed into the reaver only to be colected by moebius to give to willam the just where the events would loop endlessly until kain could convenience raziel to spare him
The first timeline has Kain in BO1 pick up the Soul Reaver in Avernus, brought there due to events in later timelines, to defeat William the Just already wielding his own Soul Reaver blade. Raziel would only get trapped in the blade if Kain survives the fight against William, but that would only happen if Raziel got trapped in the blade before Kain or William the Just in BO1 pick it up. The reaver blade Vorador forged may have a singular origin, but its later soul reaving incarnations are a paradox of their own. "So long as one of us stands, we are legion." In other words, the two soul reavers clashing were not an act of free will, but a predestined event. "Does one ever truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate."
No Paradoxes? Raziel's Kain grew up during the time when William went from The Just to The Nemesis (Kain: In my youth, I witnessed William's rise to power, and his transformation in the Nemesis, who laid waste to Nosgoth). With William dead, the younger Kain would NOT grow up during that time since that version of Kain would not know of the Nemesis, that version would only know that William the most beloved king of Nosgoth was killed by a vampire, which would change a TON of the Blood Omen era. When Raziel's Kain went to Vorador's mansion, there were other vampires. But in the timeline where William was killed, Vorador's mansion is practically vacant. William's relentless assault on the entire world was definitely significant. With William dead before he can (In Kain's words) ravage Nosgoth, a huge chunk of the world is saved. I love Legacy of Kain, and I felt sad after hearing about Tony & Paul's deaths which coupled together with financing issues of the company meant that Legacy of Kain could not be finished. But there are definitely paradoxes.
@@RainaAudron Kind of. We don't really know what the events are for the Younger Kain, we only know the events of Raziel's Kain. You did touch on them, somewhat, but you say that many events are largely unchanged with minor alterations. Personally, the biggest event that was changed was Kain's past. You gotta wonder what Nosgoth would be like for Kain who grew up never knowing of the Nemesis, who only knew that vampires killed Nosgoth's most beloved king, how the corrupted circle would affect Nosgoth without the Nemesis around, and the biggest bit - Raziel's Kain learned that the Oracle was Moebius who manipulated him into killing William, but a Younger Kain would have no reason to go back since the Nemesis wasn't around (it was the only reason that Kain used time travel in the first place), so that Kain would not know about how devious Moebius truly is.
Anyone notice that the mural to the right of the vampire converting the yong human clarly depicts Mortanius existing in that era? The thing is that the weilder of the serpent staff is not clearly Mobius, hinting that mortanius may have been the first (and only) human death guardian to exist.
@@RainaAudron It would kind of make sense that the Moebiius' staff was made by Mortanius, since he was a necromancer. I'm not saying Moebius couldn't have constructed it himself, just there's a certain symmetry to have a staff to deal with undead made by the necromancer. I've played too much D&D.
@@syragrippa8769 It would make sense if Mortanius created the Staff, too. His powers aren't just over corpses, but souls and decay as will. These align with Vampires almost perfectly, and I wouldn't be shocked if Mortanius, like Vorador, could mind control weaker Vampires.
The ambient sounds from Soul Reaver 2 is so good. Need to look up videos on that and listen to it as I meditate. Please do ambient sound video of the one at 3:00 through 4:12. I would save that video and listen to it all the time.
Okay, everything with Janos Audron, Blood Omen 2, and the Hylden Lord makes sense now - it happens before Soul Reaver, making sense since Kain would be conquering Nosgoth in that period.
Hei! With Raziel's sacrifice, kain could, for the first time, see the face of the false, parasitic elder God. How could you omit such important fact????
What’s the relevancy to that tho? The fact he was able to kill him? I’m still confused with the entire story. Wish we could of gotten a proper ending to this game. What do you think happened at the end most likely? After kain defeated elder god and was looking off in the distance talking about hope.
@@destroyscenefags We will never know... It's obvious that there's still loose ends. Does Kain accept the sacrifice? Is Raziel's purification of Kain enough to correct the pillar of Balance?
Not sure if you said it, but I was always thought BO 2 only game into being due to end of defiance. Meaning Janos was only there due to Kain sparing Raziel at the end of SR2. So then my question is where was elder Kain during BO2.
Well MY question is…why does elder Kain fear the resurrection of Janos when alternate timeline BO2 Kain had already defeated the Sarafan lord?? Also, where are all the BO2 vampires during the SR1 era?
I don't believe there could have been a future where the Nemesis and his descendants rule Nosgoth because that would negate the events of Soul Reaver 1 and prevent the creation of the Soul Reaver, the soul Reaver has to be created in the future to have caused most of the events in the past that lead to the rise of the Nemesis to begin with. I think it is more likely that in the 'original' timeline where William lives Kain, having failed to assassinate him, escapes back to his present and somehow defeats the older version of him that is the Nemesis. Maybe he raises Raziel and co to achieve this after destroying the pillars. Ironically Kain becomes obsessed with regaining this lost original timeline despite the fact that it is pretty similar to what he ended up with. One other thing. I often hear it said that the paradoxes allowing timeline changes are caused by an object or soul meeting its prior/future self but this is only half true. From what we have seen it _only_ works with the Soul Reaver, not just any object or soul, that there is something unique about the combination of Raziel's soul merged with the magic inlaid into the Reaver. It is not caused by Wraith Raziel meeting Sarafan Raziel, nor by Wraith Raziel finding the 'blood' Reaver. However the wraith Soul Reaver (bonded to Raziel) is just as valid as the corporeal sword that still houses the wraith soul. If it worked with just any old object/soul then Moebius could easily create a paradox whenever he felt like it.
Yeah I'd say both of those points are valid and correct - and consistent with what's been said in the video. The Nemesis and/or his descendants can only rule Nosgoth for a time and that time is up with the raising of the lieutenants and the start of the Soul Reaver era 5 centuries after BO1. Personally I'd give them a bit more time than Kain killing him right after BO1, just to give the seer's prophecy from the BO1 FAQ a little more gravitas and perhaps make them something of a Hylden-Sarafan analogue for the rule of least resistance. Either way they gotta be gone by the SR1 era and the absolute last we could have is that the Land of the Nemesis is among the 'Major Human Kingdoms' conquered by Kain. Spot on on the two Reavers as well - it's two Soul Reavers specifically that trigger changes, not two copies of Grey's Sports Almanac.
This post is my 5 cents on the matter. It is as always too long and too "biased" via my opinions to say so. Read with discretion. 1] The thing with the first timeline is that Kain MUST survive in any outcome of William fight so as to then to create his lieutenants via reaving their souls from abyss. There was an idea that the doppleganger that Moebius summons in the 2 timeline is the failed Kain from the 1 timeline (now it's an insane oversight and I really dunno how would one make it "fair" - you just cant put Elder Kain vs Fledgling) However, if Kain does not survive the events (besides, William was armed with a Soul Reaver too, so dying is more believable) - then the only thing that you have to deal with - is to ask a question of "but who was the first Soul Reaver". IMHO, this could be the best question to ask since you would add-on an extra just-as-powerful character for next installments to work with, the one that fits Raziel's gameplay role and can further imbue the experience of the game. 2] "Paradoxes" are merely "two objects in one point of time". Those are: 1->2] William the Just fight - Kain fatalities William the Just thus breaking his Soul Reaver. Since it is the first in the series, it is ambiguous if the "younger kills older" works. Only the next installments bring this explanation so as to explain why. Mine would be that if Kain loses - none of the swords do break, causing no paradox. (tbh, you can do it with any weapon in BO1, however WtJ has such an armor than in remake I would make it that only SR is capable of penetrating it) 3->4] On the cause of the "Soul Reaver armed with a Soul Reaver". Lemme do a fan explanation on this: 1) You have a vampire wraith, who's soul was reaved from the abyss by the part of his patriarch's soul; 2) You have wraith blade-formed wraith, who's again, a complete(ly mad) Raziel with a part of Kain's soul; 3) You have JUST a Material BLOOD Reaver at that point of the time. What really happens in that battle: Wraith Raziel kills Sarafan Raziel with JUST Reaver. Wraith Reaver gets activated and senses its dormant prison. Since Blood Reaver feeds on the blood of everyone it strikes - it glurps all of SaRaziel blood. However, the madness of the Wraith Reaver says "I want more", besides, the Blood Reaver CAN prove both Wraith Raziel and Wraith Reaver with more POWER. Where do you find more blood and what blood is more "familiar"? Raziel's of course, it just tasted all of it! And yet the both "swords" want more BLOOD! But since Material Blood Reaver is simply an instrument, Wraith blade does an overhead jump and literally overpowers Wraith Raziel so as to feed on his blood. His blood being - his very own soul. Blood Reaver "eats" his whole soul + some part of Kain's soul. As to why? One can meddle with explanations, but the facts stay simple: Wraith Blade is something related to Kain, while Raziel was always "Reavered". The reason is to "always create a weapon powerful for Scion of Balance (of destoying a god)". It would be ironic that the main explanation was that "Kain's part always tied Raziel to his fate". So no matter what Raz does - kills Kain [as was planned in OG SR1] or does not - he will always do a sudoku with a Blood Reaver because he is forced to due to his Wraith Blade mishmash of "Reavers in a Reaver shape". IMHO, the reason why Kain survived the 2->3] is the "Possessed Blade + Possessed Blade" combo, where Raziel could shift the narrative due to his free will (imagine dying to Raziel with Ariel imbued Wraith Reaver), while here you get a "Possessed Blade + Vacant Blade" combo that Raziel CAN'T refute, since it is HIS destiny. P.S. This is a fiesta of a fan explanation. Also, I'm not gonna delve deep into Nemesis fiesta since it's not even clear how the first timeline ever went. Only fan explanations.
Video: "...suggest the involvement of Moebius" Me: "always!!... That bastard!!..." Also me: *totally going to rewatch the defiance clip when he is killed twice right after finishing this video*
BO2 is kinda botched in terms of Voradors presence. He obviously shouldnt be there. Since Amy Hennig wasnt the writer of BO2, its to be expected that someone would drop the ball on that one. Another thing id like to mention relates to Kain - Raziel had legitimately killed Kain in Defiance. The reason Kain came back to (un)life is through Raziels activation of the spirit forge. Remember what Ariel said? "The forge calls every balance guardians spirit to itself". That included (supposedly) dead Kain, who was raised by the forge (vampire souls dont just hover about, like Ariel; instead theyre imprisoned in their bodies, which made Kain pick himself up in the Demon Realm and answer the call of the forge). From then on, and through Raziels sacrifice, Kain is not just enlightened by the souls of former balance guardians to the existence of the elder god, but also healed by Raziel, who, just before he got absorbed by the reaver, laid his hand on Kains chest and did his thing. Heard one of the devs say that Kain is supposedly living on "borrowed time". We can easily scratch that one, given what ive mentioned before. Kain, being immortal, has all the time in the world to purify the pillars and, one way or another, get rid of the elder god.
I think it’s more than that. Main’s soul wasn’t bound to his body, but could not pass on, and this could not go to the spirit forge. Vampires that are slain have their souls remain within the spirit world, and eventually become devourer of souls, as can be seen in SR, especially if you face Dumah in the spirit world. What brought Kain back is the reactivation of the Heart of Darkness. You recall that Janos Audron’s body remained as fresh as the day the heart was removed. Because Kain’s body and spirit were in the spirit realm, I believe he was able to awaken inside his body, which is preserved because the Heart of Darkness still beats. Kain is indeed running on borrowed time. Once the Heart is destroyed or ripped from the body of Janos, both die. It is then only a matter of whether or not anyone is there to put the heart into one of their bodies, and which one.
Apparently, due to the corruption of the Pillars, they were no longer able to summon new Guardians. It goes something like this: Ariel is murdered as Kain is being born. Nupraptor finds Ariel’s corpse and unleashes his psychic attack and inflicts his madness upon all of the Pillar Guardians, Kain included. The Pillars are corrupted, and thus no longer able to call forth new Guardians. 30 years pass, and Mortanius enacts his plan to restore the Pillars and arranges for Kain’s death and resurrection. As Kain couldn’t be replaced as Balance Guardian upon his death, he resumes his duties as Balance Guardian even though he is unaware of his larger role.
Uh huh. Have you forgotten that everything Dennis Dyack tries blows up in his face thanks to his own arrogance and dubious business practices? I wouldn’t hold my breath on this one.
The only thing i think is a sort of plot hole is about the 4th timeline: how did William the Just find the Soul Reaver if the sword didn't absorb Raziel and was stolen by Kain? Did he find the Blood Reaver? Also, what is the significance of the remaining timelines? Aren't they just ipothetical events to understand what would happen if the paradox didn't occur?
It's a situation a little bit like the resurrection of Vorador in that it was planned and meant to be explained in early drafts of Defiance only to be pushed back to the next title when they were unfinished and then not revisited as the series went on hiatus - but at the same time we know they have to happen to fix continuity. In this case there would have been a final 'stinger' scene with Kain returning the Soul Reaver when he's finished with it to the Pillars for Moebius/William to find. Unfortunately as Defiance left it Kain hadn't finished with the Soul Reaver, but it still has to happen at some point. For the remaining timelines (if I understand what you're asking correctly) they still have a complete history and the timeline changing paradox events we see all had 'neutral' versions where the potential was there but no change took place - but in both cases we don't see it as the version of history we see is derailed and pushed onto another track. Because we don't see them we can't be 100% sure of what happened (indicated by dotted lines on the graphical explanation) but the rules dictate they should be very similar to later versions of the timeline and only have slight changes.
There are two versions of Raziel at that moment, the soul in his temporary body and the wraith blade. Wraith blade disperses into Kain, while Raziel's soul goes into the Blood Reaver, creating the Soul Reaver.
Do you think Mortanius was possessed by the Hylden when he murdered Ariel? I don't think so. I believe the Hylden were only able cross from the demon dimension *after* the pillars corruption. So I think Mortanius acted as part of the elaborated plan (along with Moebius) to eradicate the vampires. Then the Hylden probably just took advantage of the situation.
Mortanius was possessed by the Hylden Lord when he killed Ariel and ordered Kain to be killed (HL admits to it at the end of BO1). Him resurrecting Kain was his atonement (as he confesses in Defiance) to defy HL and create Scion of Balance. During BO1 era, Mortanius already knew he and Moebius made a horrible mistake by overthrowing the vampires. All of this has been explained in Defiance. The corruption of the Pillars was orchestrated by the Hylden all along.
4 роки тому
there was no hylden in BO1 the race was added in the next games as they tried to fit their story into BO1 which it does quite well but if you only play BO1 you never hear the word hylden even once
@ It was retconned, yes, but they are now part of the storyline and it was established that Mortanius was possessed by the Hylden Lord at the time. You can´t look at BO1 in isolation. Dyack´s original vision would have been different but that is not the path CD took with the consequent games.
Centuries of human guardians made the pillars weaker, allowing the hylden lord to posses mortanius to further corrupt the pillars, allowing the hylden to come out.
Yeaaah okay... but hang on a second! Raziel the wraith, leads Raziel the mortal, to kill Janos, which is how Mortanius ends up with the Heart of Darkness, allowing him to raise Kain as a vampire, which allows Kain to raise Raziel as a vampire, who then becomes Raziel the wraith. So how did Mortanius get the Heart of Darkness originally? Either Blood Omen 1 is NOT the original, primal timeline, or the paradoxes created by the Soul Reaver were as much a part of destiny as anything else and do not allow time to be altered. There is also the fact that the Reaver was forged for Raziel, per Janos, but in the "original" timeline, Kain dies and never creates Raziel, so why would the Soul Reaver be forged, thus allowing for history to ever be changed in the first place, thus allowing for Raziel's creation? And why would the Soul Reaver blade shatter in the original cycle, when Kain used it against Raziel the Wraith, since the 'first time around' it would just be a normal sword? Moebius? It makes zero sense for him to set that up. The Elder God? Makes even less sense, unless everything we were told about his motivations are a lie. The Hilden? They are nowhere to be found by the time of the Derelict Empire (Soul Reaver 1).
It never adds up completely. That's the issue with time travel stories hehe. The nice thing about the LOK series is the concept of time/space as a river. Twisting and reshaping around things that block it's flow and ultimately becoming the same further down the stream. With that analogy set up the writers can do basically anything because, to a time traveler's viewpoint, things that don't make sense are "magically" made to make sense by time/space itself. It becomes futile to try to trace all the possible timelines. It would be like trying to follow individual drops of water in the turbulent flow that courses around the time obstructions.
My interpretation of it is: in the first timeline, kain is defeated in the past, but doesn't die and flees back to the future. there he mannages to rise a vampire army in time, rising his liutenants and destroying the nemesis kingdom. Then wraith raziel is created as always, in an attempt of Kain to change history to restore the pillars. then everything happens like in timeline 2 and the soul reaver exists. The main differece could be that Vorador and other vampires that were not descendants of kain woud still be arround. So Janos is killed, the heart of darkness recovered and Kain is resurrected as a vampire. But since Kain lost, William's broken Soul Reaver is not there in the fortress in Soul Reaver 2 to create the paradox that allows Raziel not to kill kain. Not allowing the rest of the paradoxes to happen. I admit is a bit headcannon-y but think this is one of the time travel stories with the least plot holes out there.
MY BRAIN HAS MELTED!!!! Most mysteries are unfold, but i still cannot trace which soul reaver is which in the moment kain and william clash?!?! kain gets the reaver that has raziel inside of him at the end of the second timeline, and william has what soul reaver? so perplexed please heeeelp hahah
In short, the timeline of the Reaver/Soul Reaver in the most recent (4th observed) timeline is as follows: Vorador>Janos(SR2)>Sarafan(SR2)>Raziel(SR2)>Kain(Defiance)>Raziel enters Reaver, *Soul Reaver* created>?(unseen, Kain goes back in time and returns it)>?Moebius?>William(BO1,broken)>William's Sarcophagus (SR2, fixed)>?Moebius?>Kain(BO1-BO2-SR1)>Soul Reaver shattered, *Wraith Blade* created>Raziel(SR1-SR2>Defiance)>dispersed into Kain. In response to your questions: a)Both Kain and William are armed with versions of the Soul Reaver, William's is the younger/earlier version of the blade. b)The second timeline is the one we see from the end of BO1, through SR1 and the start of SR2. That version the timeline of the blade is much simpler, but most of the same stuff still applies. Instead of Kain holding the Reaver through Defiance and taking it back in time, the Soul Reaver is created there and the next we know it goes to Moebius and/or William. At the end Raziel's wraith blade never makes it to Defiance so the Wraith blade ends at the end of SR2.
But Blood Omen 2 ended with younger Kain setting up for his empire, leaving the question of elder Kain's fate unanswered. Do you think we can persuade Amy Hennig to put up a Kickstarter to write a book or two that wraps the rest of it up?
the events of blood omen 2 are part of timeline 4, which is the result of the paradox at the end of soul reaver 2. and while they are "largely unchanged" from timeline 3, we don't really know how. the major difference i see is that razel's soul is trapped in the reaver in 3 which i assume would have made the reaver more powerful?
@@redwolfmatt a good point. The other difference is that in BO2, we play again as a younger Kain, with unchanged skin and all five fingers on each hand. I wonder how things would have played out had Silicon Knights been allowed to run with it themselves, as opposed to the publisher wanting... was it Crystal Dynamics who had a hand in it? Or was it the publishers themselves? I can't remember. Also, time travel always gets a bit murky.
@@RobCrowley85 after the events of blood omen 2, Young Kain would eventually do the same things he did in previous timelines rising his litenants and conquering nosgoth, only to later create Raziel. the story would probably end with elder kain finally defeating/making peace with the hylden and destroying the elder god, finally restoring nosgoth, all after the events of soul reaver 1. Then make the final confrontation weaken the soul reaver again and Kain just has to travel back in time to leave the reaver for his young self to find for everything to make sense. Unless Hennig planned to pull up another paradox that would further complicate the story. But at least that is my headcanon of what would happen to tie up the loose onds left by the final cliffhanger.
Funny how I always saw three problems in North Goth. Vampires, Hildens, and the Ancient God. Vampires are originally created by their enemies, so they are not a natural species. And in the era of the soul reaver, the pillars are destroyed. Hildens are locked up forever.The only thing that Kain can do is destroy the god and leave the world to people.
Ancient and Hylden races were "just there". Both are just as natural as they are. However, the madness that both inflicted on each other shaped them... Into a "hell of their own making". BO2 actually shows that pretty well, despite being an inadequate game in LoK series. As for Kain being a martyr for human cause - I really dunno.
@@jabroniyumerale6204 Both races have completely lost their usual way of life. The ancients were not vampires in the beginning. And Hilden has grown too much with demons. Both races will not be able to get along with humanity in today's state. Worse, most likely without humans, vampires will die out and Hilden will turn the world into a kind of hell.
@@dogreeddogreed3587 I really dunno about the whole "leave"world to humans. Times and times again in the series, they proved to be the most primal in their knowledge and understanding. I'd expect more that Elder Kain would pull a "neither one of those sides is right in this war" * approach and will try to atleast salvage what's left of his decrepit, driven with cataclisms, world. Besides, his characteristic of himself "As long as one of us stands - We are Legion", is a true showcase that Elder Kain's way of doing things would NOT be forgotten no matter what. (BO2 actually laid this plotline by the way, the final squabble between Janos and Hylden Lord from Kain's eyes looks extremely simple and pyrrhic, if not outright insulting to the whole premise that Kain was fighting for [even if the fight was subconscious until he found Chronoplast]. Both ancient enemies go at each other like animals, while Kain in the end takes time to hear what his enemy says. Also the "Where was my jubilation?" cut line in the ending regarding the whole fiesta. Man, it hits way too deep for a simple game - the reason it was cut.) As a Scion of Balance restoring the world would probably include making another "Kingdom" for Pillar Guardians but I wonder how different it would be to SR1's one. But the main question is - can Kain really defeat Elder God alone? EG notes that he has more servants from where Raziel had come. Maybe the Dark Prophecy is that Elder Kain loses no matter how hard he tries and the only way to save the world would be to introduce something, or someone, willing to put its existence to the same cause as Kain's?
@@jabroniyumerale6204 The problem is that the pillars are needed as a castle for those who have already been defeated and they will not return. It makes no sense to educate the keepers of the pillars And the whole idea of the ancients was to destroy the Hilden. They made vampires from people in the hope that they would preserve their heritage and destroy the enemy. The fate of the caine of the vampire classes was to defeat the champion Hilden and close the hole between the worlds. The conspiracy of the ancient god was revealed many times later. Before that, Kain lied only to the prophecies of vampires who were directed by their god.
@@jabroniyumerale6204 The true goal of Kain is to cleanse the world from an ancient god that exists outside of time, for this he will need Raziel and most likely the ancient vampires and Hilden. Which he should have looked for in the past. But this is all already a dark prophecy.
Did the first original William that would be the Nemesis have the Soul Reaver or the Blood Reaver? If the Nemesis’s armies ruled after then Raziel would have never been reborn a Vampire and reborn again as a wraith to then get absorbed by the Blood Reaver, then how did William the Just’s weapon have his soul?
You may have stumbled into a paradox here; William's reaver was broken in his fight with kain, and repaired by a time travelling Raziel at the beginning of Soul Reaver 2, except that Raziel can't exist to travel back unless that reaver is repaired for younger kain to use in that fight, thus meaning that the creation of the empowered soul reaver is and always was a bootstrap paradox, but one that can't start. Effectively, the LoK timelines are a parasitic history that's grafted itself on to the real timeline. Basically: the elder god did it. He exists partially outside time, since no matter when he's encountered, he always has experience contemporary to any time travellers. I have a personal theory that the Mass in Blood Omen 2 is actually the Elder God, and all the time shenanigans in the series are actually machinations of the dead elder god to cause kain to get to the position where he can kill the Mass and thus send him to the Spectral Realm, as we see in soul reaver 1. All the paradoxes and changes are smaller changes in a bigger paradox as the elder god consumes the universe from within and without.
@@SymbioteMullet I don't really buy your theory concerning the Mass given the Elder God exists simultaneously in the Material and Spectral realm. Due to this, why would he ever be restricted to a form that solely exists in one realm? Furthermore, if the Elder God really is the spirit of the Mass, how come he only ever demonstrates telepathy when the Mass could kill anything with a thought? Sounds pretty useful against Kain.
@Blank the Mass is kind of an oddity, there's nothing else really like it in the whole of LoK. I agree, the mass being a wmd where the elder god is in some ways kind of powerless is a bit weird, but it m may need the whole facility it was in to enact it's brain smushing - power source and focus kind of thing. And so the EG can't do mass brain smushing without a similar setup, but it'd have to exist in both the physical and spectral realms (without being corrupted by spectral realm weirdness) to work. Also the hylden probably lobotomised the Mass to keep it compliant. So it can only lash out telepathically when appropriately stimulated. Sorry, tangented. As i said, the elder god only gains it's spectral capacity after the mass is killed - it's too angry to fade away and so becomes a wraith, eventually learning how to spin matter and remake a body and all that good stuff. Thus he doesn't exist in both the physical and spectral realms simultaneously until the mass is dead.
It may be fair, if unsatisfying, to assume that something else happened that was altered. While we say stuff like the "first" , "second", etc timelines, there's nothing really going against the notion that Moebius or someone else haven't altered history before Kain fought William. The creation of the original Soul Reaver may very well have been a convenient accident. Plus, while Raziel is special as a walking paradox, the Tiem Streamer needs to have *some* experience with time, I'd assume. For such a manipulator I'd imagine Kain wouldn't have been the first time Moebius decided to use time shenanigans.
@@SymbioteMullet Before the Hylden can even do anything, how did they capture the Elder God in the first place? No one important seems to know what the EG is outside of Raziel, and Moe and Kain only after exposure to the Spirit Reaver. If there is, to your admittance, nothing like the Mass, why does it have to be the Elder God?
I might have missed this but how was Janos alive and not corrupted in Blood Omen 2 if he got his heart ripped out as we see in Soul Reaver 2 and how at the end of Defiance, he is revived but corrupted by the Hylden?
They go the other way around. Janos is killed by having his heart ripped out in SR2. Then he is revived by Raziel as seen in Defiance and ends up being possessed by the Hylden Lord/Sarafan Lord who uses Janos to open the Hylden gate and brings his native body through to the material realm. After that Janos is imprisoned in the device and devolves as his strength is sapped to feed the mass as seen in BO2.
The fact this series isnt around today just shows how daft current game companies are. Imagine a new single player game abit like GOW. Game of the year stuff. Would never be the same now though. Politics would make it a shadow of itself.
Black Sun was anything BUT politically correct, but it was so different from anything in The Legacy of Kain and tried to hard to be mature that it ended up being immature. The great dialogue of the older games was completely missing and instead replaced with F-bombs and talks of titties. There was no connection to the series and didn't continue the story after Defiance, which is the continuation that fans really wanted. They basically wanted to appeal to the lowest common denominator and dumbed it down. That project was thankfully cancelled. Then there was the MMO that was pretty decent but didn't last long. I think if they want to bring the series back, they need to remake the older games with changes made to fix the continuity and add in the deleted content. Then they can continue the series by making a brand new game taking place after Defiance. The worst they could do is make Raziel and Kain gay for each other and cover up anything resembling the female anatomy.
@@MVegetto1 Not true. I think DLC would be a single episode to lead into a new game. Think of it as a demo to give you a sneak peak of things to come. Just look at Kingdom Hearts.
@@ericstaples7220 True, but I think it's not unreasonable to make the educated assumption that the Ancient Vampires tried to lift the curse first. Not every single detail needs to be explicitly stated. For example, Kain sat on the throne of an empire of vampires. Nobody needs to see his tax policies or the documents regarding the logistics of goods transportation.
Did anyone did no wanted to kill Kain playing as Raziel and was conflicted during the battle? I literally cursed while fighting and threw away the control after Kain's "death".
NOTE! Comment too long, no need to read it completely! The fun fact is that Legacy of Kain series has changed quite a lot in development of each of its games, so to say that this property of extreme change in this franchise is but a second nature - is to say nothing. What's more funnier - is that each scrap that was just an idea/scrapped or remade design/ some developer oversights* can really work as a fuel for a new installment, enriching the lore of the world by introducing the missing links, while also staying extremely faithful to the previous games. Missing links that are integrated into the game's lore by utilizing unused/dropped concept in art/game/lore design of the previous or cancelled games - those could basically write up a part of a story themself, while, with unusual approach towards re-implementing dropped elements could create an entirely new part of the story. This is the power of Legacy of Kain as a franchise - despite having a working plot with thousand and one question left unanswered and from-great-to-barely-average gamedesign (looking at you, cursed BO2/Defiance), each old game of the franchise would kick every competitor's ass JUST by existing with newer additions to the gameplay. While making a continuation after Defiance would be a hard but perfectly do-able job ** , that is if the skillset used to create lore through looking for inspiration in previous installments and general world building ideology - through atleast passing a take on the inspirations that were used in the world building, as the Wheel of Fate books and other - was retained. ==================================================================================================================================== Also, every game dropped a theme or two of its own and so far that make the job of continuing them far easier, for those who look for them. Blood Omen 1, Soul Reaver 1/2, Blood Omen 2 and Defiance - all those games have an extremely important (though not main story defining) themes that were merely glanced, while . ONLY Blood Omen 1 themes were fully completed in ideologic sense - "Betrayal and Manipulation", "Redemption vs Survival", "Find A Third Choice" and "Blind To Your Environment" - those themes were atleast completely finished, while the "Kain's Humanity vs Vampirism" (brought up IMMEDIATELY in Soul Reaver 1. "Cast him in" look on Kain's face + "... when Mortanius FIRST turned ME from the light!") "World-building Place of Interest" (the first reason Elder Kain is portrayed as he is), "Your Price is Your Very Own Soul" (the second reason Elder Kain became who he is; also he became just as divided as his soul is in this moment + Nup's Madness, so this trope is appropriate), "Sworn Enemy for No Cause" (BO1 sudden banishment of Hylden Lord due to Soul Reaver, can you really kill this dude for good?) were started and those are not the only ones that were brought up. Even BO2 manages to raise some crucial questions that are VERY important for the might-be-future installments, the questions that will shed the light on how Kain became who he is. And with Elder Kain in the fray, the paradox fiesta can be continued, with Elder Kain continuously trolling his Young self. * Main example - Soul Reaver created first before Vorador was borne, also truncating some of the parts like "Sarafan Six Death". Also this could work by taking advantage of how Soul Reaver looked in first Blood Omen 1 versus what it looked after re-design. I M P L I C A T I O N S. ** With some amendments and adjustments one can even make Dead Sun work inside LoK franchise. P.S. I really think that the possibility of Raziel killing Kain with Wraith Blade (as in OG SR1) was always there. Kain just went in full on to induce the "Two parasitic Reavers at one time" in SR2, unlike the SR1 incarnation of "There's only one Soul Reaver" where Raz kills off Turel for good, which turns Kain into a "Soul Reaver". "Kindred, this blade and I". Plus it is Kain who "raises" (literally steals souls from abyss) Sarafan priests with his own pillar token. I also like how from the previous point one can describe whole "Soul Reaver" duumvirate as [Reaver of Souls creates an entire vampire army, unknowingly dooming them to madness. One of them, the strongest of his sons, firstborn Raziel is eligible to become a wretched "Saviour of Nosgoth". However, the usual history goes to the hell due to Moebius, Kain bamboozles everyone by telling truth or nothing but in the end gets bamboozled himself only to realize that he was blind all his life/entirely hopeless.] So, uhh, who was the Soul Reaver? As for failure-Kain in SR2 (third timeline) - he still has to die. This is the most funny question as to how make Elder failure-state Kain work here. Btw, nice timeline pic. Better than the wall of text.
Malek did not defeat Kain at all. In fact, Kain defeated Malek a couple of times during the same fight. The problem is that the defeated Malek kept 'rebuilding' himself after each time he had been 'shattered'. Kain only abandoned the fight after defeating Malek a couple of times. And he neither fled nor accepted defeat. He just tried to find a new strategy to make sure Malek stops rising for good.
Well, you are right that Malek kept telekinetically reassembling himself but after Kain does that a number of times Malek does a giant shockwave attack that Kain can't block or penetrate or evade except by escaping.
That isn't Kain defeating Malek, to be fair. Also abandoning the fight is also fleeing, because Kain couldn't defeat Malek. Vorador could defeat Malek, and there hasn't been any implication that I know of showing Vorador having used some special method. The only real implication was that Vorador was just simply stronger.
Wait... you say the Hilden's parting curse to the vampires are immortality and sterility. After that you said that eventually the humans would replace the vampires in the circle of nine... But how will they ever be replaced if they are immortal? Also you say some vampires commited suicide.... but how? They are immortal... Do they "die" momentarily and then return?
@@RainaAudron Well that makes sense but they could've phrased it better. It also makes the Hilden's curse kind of pointless? It made the vampires bloodthirsty and easy for humans to detest but certainly doesn't stop the vampires from spinning the wheel of fate.
The history of Nosgoth is so amazing and complex. Definitely they should continues the series.
If we can get 10 more likes I'm sure they'll do it!
I'd rather have nice memories of a fantastic franchise then have it destroyed by modern bullshit and politics.
@@miroslavmalivukovic1534 what does that even mean?! XD
@@BinarySecond Do you understand/speak English?
@@miroslavmalivukovic1534 yes. But your sentence is way off
I feel it's so important to note that it's Raziel's voluntary submission to the Reaver that makes all the difference. All the two do in Defiance is to correct their own fates. Mobius and others have sought to accelerate their encounters, fights and deaths so they cannot purify Kain to allow new guardians to be born.
These are so great. I've been a fan since the release of BO1, I was around on Nosgoth.net for years, and know all of this stuff. I'll still watch it all though. Please keep these coming.
Your explanation has managed to let fans finally fathom the secrets and doubts behind these timelines.
I was also dubious regarding many details I couldn't understand, but now everything makes sense.
Thank you so much, Raina, you did such a great job for every Lok fan :D
I only recently discovered your channel but I’m loving it. I see I have a nice backlog of videos to look forward to (13 years!). 8D I hope this Arcane Tomes series continues. Thanks for all you do!
Welcome! Haha, yes, it piled up over the years! I'm preparing new chapters for Arcane tomes series soon too :)
RainaAudron Great to hear! Thanks again for your dedication to a series I’ve loved since I first played it over 20 years ago.
Dunno how or why you popped up as recommended but after the Quantum Leap reference, I guess I'mma learn all about a game I never played.
Wow! That is a strange one but if you love time travelling stories, you're at the right address :)
You made BO2 sound so much cooler than it really turned out to be lol. Great video though. You really make this easy to follow.
This was my exact thought in the Vorador video... And yes. Here as well.
I guess it is better when placed in the largest context of the amazing series it belongs to
Man you deserve a massive super LIKE! this was so informative, sums up everything! your hard work is very appreciated
That's great to hear 🥰 Thank you!
ah the Nosgoth's timeline, personally i think that's one of the most fascinating aspects of the entire LoK saga and the one that separates its story from all the rest.. paradoxes, illusion of freewill. Awesome job as always guys!, kudos for dealing with one of the most amazing topics from the LoK saga!
Thank you for this video. I've always loved the story of this series but the timeline was challenging to keep up with. I appreciate all of the detail and the effort in clearing it up. I guess its not the timeline I would have wanted (I still would like to see a complete version of the original Soul Reaver), but it's the timeline we have, and I guess there's no changing it.
Great video, LoK is such a masterpiece so sad it hasn't gotten a proper revival
Magnificent video, it brings back so many memories.
This was a well explained video. I played thru all the games as a kid but I didnt remember all the details. I appreciate the good work.
Yes, I subscribed for more.
Love your Legacy of Kain content!
Very cool for bedtime because I listen 5 min. and I'm gone. But the content is that good written if you listen and concentrate you are so deep in story on focus that you fall asleep!
Thanks! The latest Tomes have been recorded with a new mic so the audio quality should be better. Haha, I let Baz know his voice is good to fall asleep to, lol! 😅👍
The timelines are greatly appreciated.
I adore these videos. Reminds me of my favorite games.
I would love to read novels based on the games!
After all these years I'm still obsessed with these games. Really would've loved a proper conclusion to the story.
Thank you! I always had problems understanding all the time travel shenanigans especially BO2
I know all of it but still i like your videos to watch.Cant wait for the next. :3 In my Timeline Raziel stays alive
Absolutely! It's lonely to be invested in this story alone. I love watching Nosgoth's lore videos, especially the ones that are well made like these ones!!
good work, and thanks, now Im understand more about LOK
Just found these videos but I'm loving them. I remember playing the Nosgoth open beta with you guys, Taryn and a few others XD
Glad to hear that! No way?! Those were some good times in Nosgoth :)
so raziel was born way before kain was born
Just discovered your channel bro love the content. Nice to see soul reaver fandom is strong with you
you know I was working on making a timeline video like I understand everything how the evens happened to even more of an extent of what most lok fans would I was setting up a timeline on photoshop so it was easy to understand for anyone watching but I found vocalizing what I've known about the timeline difficult and work and life kept drawing my attention elsewhere so I'm glad you guys put together the video we need at least 1 video describing the timeline maybe one day I might finish it was hoping to use it as a foundation to some of my lok theories or just random lok thoughts videos one thing to note is in the timeline where Raziel kills kain at the tomb of William the just Moebius wouldn't send Raziel to the future in an attempt to fuel his hatred for kain since he would have already have killed him there would be no need to so Moebius would have most likely sent him to the time he requested to see janos and with no kain around raziel would be absorbed into the reaver only to be colected by moebius to give to willam the just where the events would loop endlessly until kain could convenience raziel to spare him
The first timeline has Kain in BO1 pick up the Soul Reaver in Avernus, brought there due to events in later timelines, to defeat William the Just already wielding his own Soul Reaver blade. Raziel would only get trapped in the blade if Kain survives the fight against William, but that would only happen if Raziel got trapped in the blade before Kain or William the Just in BO1 pick it up. The reaver blade Vorador forged may have a singular origin, but its later soul reaving incarnations are a paradox of their own. "So long as one of us stands, we are legion." In other words, the two soul reavers clashing were not an act of free will, but a predestined event. "Does one ever truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate."
No Paradoxes? Raziel's Kain grew up during the time when William went from The Just to The Nemesis (Kain: In my youth, I witnessed William's rise to power, and his transformation in the Nemesis, who laid waste to Nosgoth). With William dead, the younger Kain would NOT grow up during that time since that version of Kain would not know of the Nemesis, that version would only know that William the most beloved king of Nosgoth was killed by a vampire, which would change a TON of the Blood Omen era.
When Raziel's Kain went to Vorador's mansion, there were other vampires. But in the timeline where William was killed, Vorador's mansion is practically vacant.
William's relentless assault on the entire world was definitely significant. With William dead before he can (In Kain's words) ravage Nosgoth, a huge chunk of the world is saved.
I love Legacy of Kain, and I felt sad after hearing about Tony & Paul's deaths which coupled together with financing issues of the company meant that Legacy of Kain could not be finished. But there are definitely paradoxes.
Not sure what you mean - paradoxes have been marked as purple on the timeline and we talk about them in detail.
@@RainaAudron Kind of. We don't really know what the events are for the Younger Kain, we only know the events of Raziel's Kain. You did touch on them, somewhat, but you say that many events are largely unchanged with minor alterations. Personally, the biggest event that was changed was Kain's past.
You gotta wonder what Nosgoth would be like for Kain who grew up never knowing of the Nemesis, who only knew that vampires killed Nosgoth's most beloved king, how the corrupted circle would affect Nosgoth without the Nemesis around, and the biggest bit - Raziel's Kain learned that the Oracle was Moebius who manipulated him into killing William, but a Younger Kain would have no reason to go back since the Nemesis wasn't around (it was the only reason that Kain used time travel in the first place), so that Kain would not know about how devious Moebius truly is.
Anyone notice that the mural to the right of the vampire converting the yong human clarly depicts Mortanius existing in that era? The thing is that the weilder of the serpent staff is not clearly Mobius, hinting that mortanius may have been the first (and only) human death guardian to exist.
The mural depicts Mortanius and Moebius, they were one of the first guardians after vampires got the curse.
@@RainaAudron It would kind of make sense that the Moebiius' staff was made by Mortanius, since he was a necromancer. I'm not saying Moebius couldn't have constructed it himself, just there's a certain symmetry to have a staff to deal with undead made by the necromancer. I've played too much D&D.
@@syragrippa8769 It would make sense if Mortanius created the Staff, too. His powers aren't just over corpses, but souls and decay as will. These align with Vampires almost perfectly, and I wouldn't be shocked if Mortanius, like Vorador, could mind control weaker Vampires.
The ambient sounds from Soul Reaver 2 is so good. Need to look up videos on that and listen to it as I meditate. Please do ambient sound video of the one at 3:00 through 4:12. I would save that video and listen to it all the time.
I already did :) ua-cam.com/video/W-KkSY3ZjKg/v-deo.html
@@RainaAudron thanks so much. Was searching all over UA-cam for Janos' retreat. It's LOC at its peak.
Okay, everything with Janos Audron, Blood Omen 2, and the Hylden Lord makes sense now - it happens before Soul Reaver, making sense since Kain would be conquering Nosgoth in that period.
Hei! With Raziel's sacrifice, kain could, for the first time, see the face of the false, parasitic elder God. How could you omit such important fact????
What’s the relevancy to that tho? The fact he was able to kill him? I’m still confused with the entire story. Wish we could of gotten a proper ending to this game. What do you think happened at the end most likely? After kain defeated elder god and was looking off in the distance talking about hope.
@@destroyscenefags We will never know... It's obvious that there's still loose ends. Does Kain accept the sacrifice? Is Raziel's purification of Kain enough to correct the pillar of Balance?
Excellent video thanks dude thanks for uploading this awesome video!😎👍
I must, something record about legacy of kain again too.
Nice video
Not sure if you said it, but I was always thought BO 2 only game into being due to end of defiance. Meaning Janos was only there due to Kain sparing Raziel at the end of SR2. So then my question is where was elder Kain during BO2.
This is also the most confusing part for me.
Well MY question is…why does elder Kain fear the resurrection of Janos when alternate timeline BO2 Kain had already defeated the Sarafan lord?? Also, where are all the BO2 vampires during the SR1 era?
Thank you Raina.
The best telling of this story. Superb!
I don't believe there could have been a future where the Nemesis and his descendants rule Nosgoth because that would negate the events of Soul Reaver 1 and prevent the creation of the Soul Reaver, the soul Reaver has to be created in the future to have caused most of the events in the past that lead to the rise of the Nemesis to begin with. I think it is more likely that in the 'original' timeline where William lives Kain, having failed to assassinate him, escapes back to his present and somehow defeats the older version of him that is the Nemesis. Maybe he raises Raziel and co to achieve this after destroying the pillars. Ironically Kain becomes obsessed with regaining this lost original timeline despite the fact that it is pretty similar to what he ended up with.
One other thing. I often hear it said that the paradoxes allowing timeline changes are caused by an object or soul meeting its prior/future self but this is only half true. From what we have seen it _only_ works with the Soul Reaver, not just any object or soul, that there is something unique about the combination of Raziel's soul merged with the magic inlaid into the Reaver. It is not caused by Wraith Raziel meeting Sarafan Raziel, nor by Wraith Raziel finding the 'blood' Reaver. However the wraith Soul Reaver (bonded to Raziel) is just as valid as the corporeal sword that still houses the wraith soul. If it worked with just any old object/soul then Moebius could easily create a paradox whenever he felt like it.
Yeah I'd say both of those points are valid and correct - and consistent with what's been said in the video.
The Nemesis and/or his descendants can only rule Nosgoth for a time and that time is up with the raising of the lieutenants and the start of the Soul Reaver era 5 centuries after BO1. Personally I'd give them a bit more time than Kain killing him right after BO1, just to give the seer's prophecy from the BO1 FAQ a little more gravitas and perhaps make them something of a Hylden-Sarafan analogue for the rule of least resistance. Either way they gotta be gone by the SR1 era and the absolute last we could have is that the Land of the Nemesis is among the 'Major Human Kingdoms' conquered by Kain.
Spot on on the two Reavers as well - it's two Soul Reavers specifically that trigger changes, not two copies of Grey's Sports Almanac.
This post is my 5 cents on the matter. It is as always too long and too "biased" via my opinions to say so. Read with discretion.
1] The thing with the first timeline is that Kain MUST survive in any outcome of William fight so as to then to create his lieutenants via reaving their souls from abyss.
There was an idea that the doppleganger that Moebius summons in the 2 timeline is the failed Kain from the 1 timeline
(now it's an insane oversight and I really dunno how would one make it "fair" - you just cant put Elder Kain vs Fledgling)
However, if Kain does not survive the events (besides, William was armed with a Soul Reaver too, so dying is more believable) - then the only thing that you have to deal with - is to ask a question of "but who was the first Soul Reaver". IMHO, this could be the best question to ask since you would add-on an extra just-as-powerful character for next installments to work with, the one that fits Raziel's gameplay role and can further imbue the experience of the game.
2] "Paradoxes" are merely "two objects in one point of time".
Those are:
1->2] William the Just fight - Kain fatalities William the Just thus breaking his Soul Reaver.
Since it is the first in the series, it is ambiguous if the "younger kills older" works. Only the next installments bring this explanation so as to explain why. Mine would be that if Kain loses - none of the swords do break, causing no paradox.
(tbh, you can do it with any weapon in BO1, however WtJ has such an armor than in remake I would make it that only SR is capable of penetrating it)
3->4] On the cause of the "Soul Reaver armed with a Soul Reaver".
Lemme do a fan explanation on this:
1) You have a vampire wraith, who's soul was reaved from the abyss by the part of his patriarch's soul;
2) You have wraith blade-formed wraith, who's again, a complete(ly mad) Raziel with a part of Kain's soul;
3) You have JUST a Material BLOOD Reaver at that point of the time.
What really happens in that battle: Wraith Raziel kills Sarafan Raziel with JUST Reaver. Wraith Reaver gets activated and senses its dormant prison. Since Blood Reaver feeds on the blood of everyone it strikes - it glurps all of SaRaziel blood. However, the madness of the Wraith Reaver says "I want more", besides, the Blood Reaver CAN prove both Wraith Raziel and Wraith Reaver with more POWER.
Where do you find more blood and what blood is more "familiar"?
Raziel's of course, it just tasted all of it! And yet the both "swords" want more BLOOD! But since Material Blood Reaver is simply an instrument, Wraith blade does an overhead jump and literally overpowers Wraith Raziel so as to feed on his blood. His blood being - his very own soul. Blood Reaver "eats" his whole soul + some part of Kain's soul.
As to why? One can meddle with explanations, but the facts stay simple: Wraith Blade is something related to Kain, while Raziel was always "Reavered".
The reason is to "always create a weapon powerful for Scion of Balance (of destoying a god)".
It would be ironic that the main explanation was that "Kain's part always tied Raziel to his fate".
So no matter what Raz does - kills Kain [as was planned in OG SR1] or does not - he will always do a sudoku with a Blood Reaver because he is forced to due to his Wraith Blade mishmash of "Reavers in a Reaver shape".
IMHO, the reason why Kain survived the 2->3] is the "Possessed Blade + Possessed Blade" combo, where Raziel could shift the narrative due to his free will
(imagine dying to Raziel with Ariel imbued Wraith Reaver),
while here you get a "Possessed Blade + Vacant Blade" combo that Raziel CAN'T refute, since it is HIS destiny.
P.S. This is a fiesta of a fan explanation. Also, I'm not gonna delve deep into Nemesis fiesta since it's not even clear how the first timeline ever went. Only fan explanations.
And now kids, write a 2000 words document about the history of the legacy of kain.
Well.... 2000 words.... Challenge accepted.
2000 words... For Legacy of Kain?? Pffft, piece of cake!!
Video: "...suggest the involvement of Moebius"
Me: "always!!... That bastard!!..."
Also me: *totally going to rewatch the defiance clip when he is killed twice right after finishing this video*
BO2 is kinda botched in terms of Voradors presence. He obviously shouldnt be there. Since Amy Hennig wasnt the writer of BO2, its to be expected that someone would drop the ball on that one.
Another thing id like to mention relates to Kain - Raziel had legitimately killed Kain in Defiance. The reason Kain came back to (un)life is through Raziels activation of the spirit forge. Remember what Ariel said? "The forge calls every balance guardians spirit to itself". That included (supposedly) dead Kain, who was raised by the forge (vampire souls dont just hover about, like Ariel; instead theyre imprisoned in their bodies, which made Kain pick himself up in the Demon Realm and answer the call of the forge). From then on, and through Raziels sacrifice, Kain is not just enlightened by the souls of former balance guardians to the existence of the elder god, but also healed by Raziel, who, just before he got absorbed by the reaver, laid his hand on Kains chest and did his thing.
Heard one of the devs say that Kain is supposedly living on "borrowed time". We can easily scratch that one, given what ive mentioned before. Kain, being immortal, has all the time in the world to purify the pillars and, one way or another, get rid of the elder god.
I think it’s more than that. Main’s soul wasn’t bound to his body, but could not pass on, and this could not go to the spirit forge. Vampires that are slain have their souls remain within the spirit world, and eventually become devourer of souls, as can be seen in SR, especially if you face Dumah in the spirit world.
What brought Kain back is the reactivation of the Heart of Darkness. You recall that Janos Audron’s body remained as fresh as the day the heart was removed. Because Kain’s body and spirit were in the spirit realm, I believe he was able to awaken inside his body, which is preserved because the Heart of Darkness still beats.
Kain is indeed running on borrowed time. Once the Heart is destroyed or ripped from the body of Janos, both die. It is then only a matter of whether or not anyone is there to put the heart into one of their bodies, and which one.
"It's complicated" -some LOK fan, maybe.
When kain was killed shouldn’t his replacement of been born immediately upon his death?
No, as long as his soul was not returned to the Pillar.
Apparently, due to the corruption of the Pillars, they were no longer able to summon new Guardians. It goes something like this:
Ariel is murdered as Kain is being born.
Nupraptor finds Ariel’s corpse and unleashes his psychic attack and inflicts his madness upon all of the Pillar Guardians, Kain included.
The Pillars are corrupted, and thus no longer able to call forth new Guardians.
30 years pass, and Mortanius enacts his plan to restore the Pillars and arranges for Kain’s death and resurrection.
As Kain couldn’t be replaced as Balance Guardian upon his death, he resumes his duties as Balance Guardian even though he is unaware of his larger role.
This is great video ❤️
Thanks for the really well explained clip.
By the way Dennis Dyack who created LOK BO is making a Spiritual Successor called DEADHAUS SONATA :)>
Uh huh. Have you forgotten that everything Dennis Dyack tries blows up in his face thanks to his own arrogance and dubious business practices? I wouldn’t hold my breath on this one.
Raziel...😞💙
The only thing i think is a sort of plot hole is about the 4th timeline: how did William the Just find the Soul Reaver if the sword didn't absorb Raziel and was stolen by Kain? Did he find the Blood Reaver? Also, what is the significance of the remaining timelines? Aren't they just ipothetical events to understand what would happen if the paradox didn't occur?
It's a situation a little bit like the resurrection of Vorador in that it was planned and meant to be explained in early drafts of Defiance only to be pushed back to the next title when they were unfinished and then not revisited as the series went on hiatus - but at the same time we know they have to happen to fix continuity. In this case there would have been a final 'stinger' scene with Kain returning the Soul Reaver when he's finished with it to the Pillars for Moebius/William to find. Unfortunately as Defiance left it Kain hadn't finished with the Soul Reaver, but it still has to happen at some point.
For the remaining timelines (if I understand what you're asking correctly) they still have a complete history and the timeline changing paradox events we see all had 'neutral' versions where the potential was there but no change took place - but in both cases we don't see it as the version of history we see is derailed and pushed onto another track. Because we don't see them we can't be 100% sure of what happened (indicated by dotted lines on the graphical explanation) but the rules dictate they should be very similar to later versions of the timeline and only have slight changes.
@Ferrari Red to mobius it doesn't actually matter. He either has william as the nemesis under his control or has his vampire hunters
Amazing
30:19 Hows raziel enters the reaver but also simultaneosly freeing himself from that imprisontment?
There are two versions of Raziel at that moment, the soul in his temporary body and the wraith blade. Wraith blade disperses into Kain, while Raziel's soul goes into the Blood Reaver, creating the Soul Reaver.
Do you think Mortanius was possessed by the Hylden when he murdered Ariel? I don't think so. I believe the Hylden were only able cross from the demon dimension *after* the pillars corruption. So I think Mortanius acted as part of the elaborated plan (along with Moebius) to eradicate the vampires. Then the Hylden probably just took advantage of the situation.
Mortanius was possessed by the Hylden Lord when he killed Ariel and ordered Kain to be killed (HL admits to it at the end of BO1). Him resurrecting Kain was his atonement (as he confesses in Defiance) to defy HL and create Scion of Balance. During BO1 era, Mortanius already knew he and Moebius made a horrible mistake by overthrowing the vampires. All of this has been explained in Defiance. The corruption of the Pillars was orchestrated by the Hylden all along.
there was no hylden in BO1
the race was added in the next games as they tried to fit their story into BO1 which it does quite well but
if you only play BO1 you never hear the word hylden even once
@ It was retconned, yes, but they are now part of the storyline and it was established that Mortanius was possessed by the Hylden Lord at the time. You can´t look at BO1 in isolation. Dyack´s original vision would have been different but that is not the path CD took with the consequent games.
Centuries of human guardians made the pillars weaker, allowing the hylden lord to posses mortanius to further corrupt the pillars, allowing the hylden to come out.
Yeaaah okay... but hang on a second! Raziel the wraith, leads Raziel the mortal, to kill Janos, which is how Mortanius ends up with the Heart of Darkness, allowing him to raise Kain as a vampire, which allows Kain to raise Raziel as a vampire, who then becomes Raziel the wraith. So how did Mortanius get the Heart of Darkness originally?
Either Blood Omen 1 is NOT the original, primal timeline, or the paradoxes created by the Soul Reaver were as much a part of destiny as anything else and do not allow time to be altered. There is also the fact that the Reaver was forged for Raziel, per Janos, but in the "original" timeline, Kain dies and never creates Raziel, so why would the Soul Reaver be forged, thus allowing for history to ever be changed in the first place, thus allowing for Raziel's creation? And why would the Soul Reaver blade shatter in the original cycle, when Kain used it against Raziel the Wraith, since the 'first time around' it would just be a normal sword?
Moebius? It makes zero sense for him to set that up. The Elder God? Makes even less sense, unless everything we were told about his motivations are a lie. The Hilden? They are nowhere to be found by the time of the Derelict Empire (Soul Reaver 1).
It never adds up completely. That's the issue with time travel stories hehe. The nice thing about the LOK series is the concept of time/space as a river. Twisting and reshaping around things that block it's flow and ultimately becoming the same further down the stream. With that analogy set up the writers can do basically anything because, to a time traveler's viewpoint, things that don't make sense are "magically" made to make sense by time/space itself. It becomes futile to try to trace all the possible timelines. It would be like trying to follow individual drops of water in the turbulent flow that courses around the time obstructions.
My interpretation of it is: in the first timeline, kain is defeated in the past, but doesn't die and flees back to the future. there he mannages to rise a vampire army in time, rising his liutenants and destroying the nemesis kingdom. Then wraith raziel is created as always, in an attempt of Kain to change history to restore the pillars. then everything happens like in timeline 2 and the soul reaver exists. The main differece could be that Vorador and other vampires that were not descendants of kain woud still be arround.
So Janos is killed, the heart of darkness recovered and Kain is resurrected as a vampire. But since Kain lost, William's broken Soul Reaver is not there in the fortress in Soul Reaver 2 to create the paradox that allows Raziel not to kill kain. Not allowing the rest of the paradoxes to happen.
I admit is a bit headcannon-y but think this is one of the time travel stories with the least plot holes out there.
MY BRAIN HAS MELTED!!!!
Most mysteries are unfold, but i still cannot trace which soul reaver is which in the moment kain and william clash?!?!
kain gets the reaver that has raziel inside of him at the end of the second timeline, and william has what soul reaver?
so perplexed please heeeelp hahah
We'll make a timeline of the Soul Reaver so you can trace its movement. It will be featured in my next video.
In short, the timeline of the Reaver/Soul Reaver in the most recent (4th observed) timeline is as follows:
Vorador>Janos(SR2)>Sarafan(SR2)>Raziel(SR2)>Kain(Defiance)>Raziel enters Reaver, *Soul Reaver* created>?(unseen, Kain goes back in time and returns it)>?Moebius?>William(BO1,broken)>William's Sarcophagus (SR2, fixed)>?Moebius?>Kain(BO1-BO2-SR1)>Soul Reaver shattered, *Wraith Blade* created>Raziel(SR1-SR2>Defiance)>dispersed into Kain.
In response to your questions:
a)Both Kain and William are armed with versions of the Soul Reaver, William's is the younger/earlier version of the blade.
b)The second timeline is the one we see from the end of BO1, through SR1 and the start of SR2. That version the timeline of the blade is much simpler, but most of the same stuff still applies. Instead of Kain holding the Reaver through Defiance and taking it back in time, the Soul Reaver is created there and the next we know it goes to Moebius and/or William. At the end Raziel's wraith blade never makes it to Defiance so the Wraith blade ends at the end of SR2.
What is the song tha plays around 30:00?
It's Janos' Retreat track.
Can we make the dark chronicle videos cannon to give us closure and balance.... :D
Do you mean Lost Chronicle videos?
f love this channel
But Blood Omen 2 ended with younger Kain setting up for his empire, leaving the question of elder Kain's fate unanswered.
Do you think we can persuade Amy Hennig to put up a Kickstarter to write a book or two that wraps the rest of it up?
the events of blood omen 2 are part of timeline 4, which is the result of the paradox at the end of soul reaver 2. and while they are "largely unchanged" from timeline 3, we don't really know how. the major difference i see is that razel's soul is trapped in the reaver in 3 which i assume would have made the reaver more powerful?
@@redwolfmatt a good point. The other difference is that in BO2, we play again as a younger Kain, with unchanged skin and all five fingers on each hand.
I wonder how things would have played out had Silicon Knights been allowed to run with it themselves, as opposed to the publisher wanting... was it Crystal Dynamics who had a hand in it? Or was it the publishers themselves?
I can't remember. Also, time travel always gets a bit murky.
@@RobCrowley85 after the events of blood omen 2, Young Kain would eventually do the same things he did in previous timelines rising his litenants and conquering nosgoth, only to later create Raziel. the story would probably end with elder kain finally defeating/making peace with the hylden and destroying the elder god, finally restoring nosgoth, all after the events of soul reaver 1. Then make the final confrontation weaken the soul reaver again and Kain just has to travel back in time to leave the reaver for his young self to find for everything to make sense. Unless Hennig planned to pull up another paradox that would further complicate the story.
But at least that is my headcanon of what would happen to tie up the loose onds left by the final cliffhanger.
I dare a netflix producer to take up the LoK. All I can think is how great a show would be to revive the franchise.
And nuprator survived right?
Not sure what you mean as he dies in every timeline (except the hypothetical one).
@@RainaAudron I think I misunderstood.
Funny how I always saw three problems in North Goth. Vampires, Hildens, and the Ancient God. Vampires are originally created by their enemies, so they are not a natural species. And in the era of the soul reaver, the pillars are destroyed. Hildens are locked up forever.The only thing that Kain can do is destroy the god and leave the world to people.
Ancient and Hylden races were "just there". Both are just as natural as they are. However, the madness that both inflicted on each other shaped them... Into a "hell of their own making".
BO2 actually shows that pretty well, despite being an inadequate game in LoK series.
As for Kain being a martyr for human cause - I really dunno.
@@jabroniyumerale6204
Both races have completely lost their usual way of life. The ancients were not vampires in the beginning. And Hilden has grown too much with demons. Both races will not be able to get along with humanity in today's state. Worse, most likely without humans, vampires will die out and Hilden will turn the world into a kind of hell.
@@dogreeddogreed3587 I really dunno about the whole "leave"world to humans. Times and times again in the series, they proved to be the most primal in their knowledge and understanding.
I'd expect more that Elder Kain would pull a "neither one of those sides is right in this war" * approach and will try to atleast salvage what's left of his decrepit, driven with cataclisms, world.
Besides, his characteristic of himself "As long as one of us stands - We are Legion", is a true showcase that Elder Kain's way of doing things would NOT be forgotten no matter what.
(BO2 actually laid this plotline by the way, the final squabble between Janos and Hylden Lord from Kain's eyes looks extremely simple and pyrrhic, if not outright insulting to the whole premise that Kain was fighting for [even if the fight was subconscious until he found Chronoplast]. Both ancient enemies go at each other like animals, while Kain in the end takes time to hear what his enemy says.
Also the "Where was my jubilation?" cut line in the ending regarding the whole fiesta. Man, it hits way too deep for a simple game - the reason it was cut.)
As a Scion of Balance restoring the world would probably include making another "Kingdom" for Pillar Guardians but I wonder how different it would be to SR1's one.
But the main question is - can Kain really defeat Elder God alone? EG notes that he has more servants from where Raziel had come. Maybe the Dark Prophecy is that Elder Kain loses no matter how hard he tries and the only way to save the world would be to introduce something, or someone, willing to put its existence to the same cause as Kain's?
@@jabroniyumerale6204
The problem is that the pillars are needed as a castle for those who have already been defeated and they will not return. It makes no sense to educate the keepers of the pillars And the whole idea of the ancients was to destroy the Hilden. They made vampires from people in the hope that they would preserve their heritage and destroy the enemy.
The fate of the caine of the vampire classes was to defeat the champion Hilden and close the hole between the worlds.
The conspiracy of the ancient god was revealed many times later.
Before that, Kain lied only to the prophecies of vampires who were directed by their god.
@@jabroniyumerale6204 The true goal of Kain is to cleanse the world from an ancient god that exists outside of time, for this he will need Raziel and most likely the ancient vampires and Hilden. Which he should have looked for in the past. But this is all already a dark prophecy.
Did the first original William that would be the Nemesis have the Soul Reaver or the Blood Reaver? If the Nemesis’s armies ruled after then Raziel would have never been reborn a Vampire and reborn again as a wraith to then get absorbed by the Blood Reaver, then how did William the Just’s weapon have his soul?
You may have stumbled into a paradox here; William's reaver was broken in his fight with kain, and repaired by a time travelling Raziel at the beginning of Soul Reaver 2, except that Raziel can't exist to travel back unless that reaver is repaired for younger kain to use in that fight, thus meaning that the creation of the empowered soul reaver is and always was a bootstrap paradox, but one that can't start.
Effectively, the LoK timelines are a parasitic history that's grafted itself on to the real timeline.
Basically: the elder god did it. He exists partially outside time, since no matter when he's encountered, he always has experience contemporary to any time travellers.
I have a personal theory that the Mass in Blood Omen 2 is actually the Elder God, and all the time shenanigans in the series are actually machinations of the dead elder god to cause kain to get to the position where he can kill the Mass and thus send him to the Spectral Realm, as we see in soul reaver 1.
All the paradoxes and changes are smaller changes in a bigger paradox as the elder god consumes the universe from within and without.
@@SymbioteMullet I don't really buy your theory concerning the Mass given the Elder God exists simultaneously in the Material and Spectral realm. Due to this, why would he ever be restricted to a form that solely exists in one realm? Furthermore, if the Elder God really is the spirit of the Mass, how come he only ever demonstrates telepathy when the Mass could kill anything with a thought? Sounds pretty useful against Kain.
@Blank the Mass is kind of an oddity, there's nothing else really like it in the whole of LoK. I agree, the mass being a wmd where the elder god is in some ways kind of powerless is a bit weird, but it m may need the whole facility it was in to enact it's brain smushing - power source and focus kind of thing. And so the EG can't do mass brain smushing without a similar setup, but it'd have to exist in both the physical and spectral realms (without being corrupted by spectral realm weirdness) to work.
Also the hylden probably lobotomised the Mass to keep it compliant. So it can only lash out telepathically when appropriately stimulated.
Sorry, tangented.
As i said, the elder god only gains it's spectral capacity after the mass is killed - it's too angry to fade away and so becomes a wraith, eventually learning how to spin matter and remake a body and all that good stuff. Thus he doesn't exist in both the physical and spectral realms simultaneously until the mass is dead.
It may be fair, if unsatisfying, to assume that something else happened that was altered. While we say stuff like the "first" , "second", etc timelines, there's nothing really going against the notion that Moebius or someone else haven't altered history before Kain fought William. The creation of the original Soul Reaver may very well have been a convenient accident.
Plus, while Raziel is special as a walking paradox, the Tiem Streamer needs to have *some* experience with time, I'd assume. For such a manipulator I'd imagine Kain wouldn't have been the first time Moebius decided to use time shenanigans.
@@SymbioteMullet Before the Hylden can even do anything, how did they capture the Elder God in the first place? No one important seems to know what the EG is outside of Raziel, and Moe and Kain only after exposure to the Spirit Reaver. If there is, to your admittance, nothing like the Mass, why does it have to be the Elder God?
I might have missed this but how was Janos alive and not corrupted in Blood Omen 2 if he got his heart ripped out as we see in Soul Reaver 2 and how at the end of Defiance, he is revived but corrupted by the Hylden?
They go the other way around. Janos is killed by having his heart ripped out in SR2. Then he is revived by Raziel as seen in Defiance and ends up being possessed by the Hylden Lord/Sarafan Lord who uses Janos to open the Hylden gate and brings his native body through to the material realm. After that Janos is imprisoned in the device and devolves as his strength is sapped to feed the mass as seen in BO2.
bazlmoon That makes sense now
The fact this series isnt around today just shows how daft current game companies are. Imagine a new single player game abit like GOW. Game of the year stuff.
Would never be the same now though. Politics would make it a shadow of itself.
sadly you're 100% correct. and half the content would be locked behind pay-to-play dlc
Black Sun was anything BUT politically correct, but it was so different from anything in The Legacy of Kain and tried to hard to be mature that it ended up being immature. The great dialogue of the older games was completely missing and instead replaced with F-bombs and talks of titties. There was no connection to the series and didn't continue the story after Defiance, which is the continuation that fans really wanted. They basically wanted to appeal to the lowest common denominator and dumbed it down. That project was thankfully cancelled. Then there was the MMO that was pretty decent but didn't last long. I think if they want to bring the series back, they need to remake the older games with changes made to fix the continuity and add in the deleted content. Then they can continue the series by making a brand new game taking place after Defiance. The worst they could do is make Raziel and Kain gay for each other and cover up anything resembling the female anatomy.
@@MVegetto1 Not true. I think DLC would be a single episode to lead into a new game. Think of it as a demo to give you a sneak peak of things to come. Just look at Kingdom Hearts.
The vampires should have tried to--I don't know--lift the curse.
Kain wanted the vampires to take over.
@@SgtSega I meant the original vampires, like Janos.
@@ericstaples7220 who's to say they didn't try?
@@theoverthinkingalien224 No one, but you can't prove a negative. Who's to say they didn't all go to Disneyland?
@@ericstaples7220 True, but I think it's not unreasonable to make the educated assumption that the Ancient Vampires tried to lift the curse first.
Not every single detail needs to be explicitly stated.
For example, Kain sat on the throne of an empire of vampires. Nobody needs to see his tax policies or the documents regarding the logistics of goods transportation.
Did anyone did no wanted to kill Kain playing as Raziel and was conflicted during the battle?
I literally cursed while fighting and threw away the control after Kain's "death".
I was definitely conflicted lol
NOTE! Comment too long, no need to read it completely!
The fun fact is that Legacy of Kain series has changed quite a lot in development of each of its games, so to say that this property of extreme change in this franchise is but a second nature - is to say nothing.
What's more funnier - is that each scrap that was just an idea/scrapped or remade design/ some developer oversights* can really work as a fuel for a new installment,
enriching the lore of the world by introducing the missing links, while also staying extremely faithful to the previous games.
Missing links that are integrated into the game's lore by utilizing unused/dropped concept in art/game/lore design of the previous or cancelled games - those could basically write up a part of a story themself, while, with unusual approach towards re-implementing dropped elements could create an entirely new part of the story.
This is the power of Legacy of Kain as a franchise - despite having a working plot with thousand and one question left unanswered and from-great-to-barely-average gamedesign (looking at you, cursed BO2/Defiance), each old game of the franchise would kick every competitor's ass JUST by existing with newer additions to the gameplay.
While making a continuation after Defiance would be a hard but perfectly do-able job ** , that is if the skillset used to create lore through looking for inspiration in previous installments and general world building ideology - through atleast passing a take on the inspirations that were used in the world building, as the Wheel of Fate books and other - was retained.
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Also, every game dropped a theme or two of its own and so far that make the job of continuing them far easier, for those who look for them.
Blood Omen 1, Soul Reaver 1/2, Blood Omen 2 and Defiance - all those games have an extremely important (though not main story defining) themes that were merely glanced, while .
ONLY Blood Omen 1 themes were fully completed in ideologic sense - "Betrayal and Manipulation", "Redemption vs Survival", "Find A Third Choice" and "Blind To Your Environment" - those themes were atleast completely finished, while the
"Kain's Humanity vs Vampirism" (brought up IMMEDIATELY in Soul Reaver 1. "Cast him in" look on Kain's face + "... when Mortanius FIRST turned ME from the light!")
"World-building Place of Interest" (the first reason Elder Kain is portrayed as he is),
"Your Price is Your Very Own Soul" (the second reason Elder Kain became who he is; also he became just as divided as his soul is in this moment + Nup's Madness, so this trope is appropriate),
"Sworn Enemy for No Cause" (BO1 sudden banishment of Hylden Lord due to Soul Reaver, can you really kill this dude for good?)
were started and those are not the only ones that were brought up. Even BO2 manages to raise some crucial questions that are VERY important for the might-be-future installments, the questions that will shed the light on how Kain became who he is. And with Elder Kain in the fray, the paradox fiesta can be continued, with Elder Kain continuously trolling his Young self.
* Main example - Soul Reaver created first before Vorador was borne, also truncating some of the parts like "Sarafan Six Death". Also this could work by taking advantage of how Soul Reaver looked in first Blood Omen 1 versus what it looked after re-design. I M P L I C A T I O N S.
** With some amendments and adjustments one can even make Dead Sun work inside LoK franchise.
P.S. I really think that the possibility of Raziel killing Kain with Wraith Blade (as in OG SR1) was always there. Kain just went in full on to induce the "Two parasitic Reavers at one time" in SR2, unlike the SR1 incarnation of "There's only one Soul Reaver" where Raz kills off Turel for good, which turns Kain into a "Soul Reaver". "Kindred, this blade and I". Plus it is Kain who "raises" (literally steals souls from abyss) Sarafan priests with his own pillar token.
I also like how from the previous point one can describe whole "Soul Reaver" duumvirate as [Reaver of Souls creates an entire vampire army, unknowingly dooming them to madness. One of them, the strongest of his sons, firstborn Raziel is eligible to become a wretched "Saviour of Nosgoth". However, the usual history goes to the hell due to Moebius, Kain bamboozles everyone by telling truth or nothing but in the end gets bamboozled himself only to realize that he was blind all his life/entirely hopeless.] So, uhh, who was the Soul Reaver?
As for failure-Kain in SR2 (third timeline) - he still has to die. This is the most funny question as to how make Elder failure-state Kain work here.
Btw, nice timeline pic. Better than the wall of text.
Malek did not defeat Kain at all. In fact, Kain defeated Malek a couple of times during the same fight. The problem is that the defeated Malek kept 'rebuilding' himself after each time he had been 'shattered'. Kain only abandoned the fight after defeating Malek a couple of times. And he neither fled nor accepted defeat. He just tried to find a new strategy to make sure Malek stops rising for good.
Well, you are right that Malek kept telekinetically reassembling himself but after Kain does that a number of times Malek does a giant shockwave attack that Kain can't block or penetrate or evade except by escaping.
That isn't Kain defeating Malek, to be fair.
Also abandoning the fight is also fleeing, because Kain couldn't defeat Malek.
Vorador could defeat Malek, and there hasn't been any implication that I know of showing Vorador having used some special method. The only real implication was that Vorador was just simply stronger.
What the hell is Hollywood waiting? They should have made a few movies already with LOK story.
At least a Netflix series
NO. they would butcher everything to make it appeal in the demographic age we are spanning. UNLESS Amy Hennig was responsible for it
Wait... you say the Hilden's parting curse to the vampires are immortality and sterility. After that you said that eventually the humans would replace the vampires in the circle of nine...
But how will they ever be replaced if they are immortal? Also you say some vampires commited suicide.... but how? They are immortal... Do they "die" momentarily and then return?
Immortal means only they do not age, but they can still die. It does not mean invulnerable.
@@RainaAudron Well that makes sense but they could've phrased it better. It also makes the Hilden's curse kind of pointless?
It made the vampires bloodthirsty and easy for humans to detest but certainly doesn't stop the vampires from spinning the wheel of fate.
First XD