Astarion and Tav went through two very different processes of becoming a spawn - for him it was extremely painful and he had to dig his way out of his grave, for the player it's painless and they just wake up with new abilities. In some DnD books this second process (accompanied with giving a little blood) is described as creating a vampire bride. It's unclear how canon that is in BG3 I think it's still save to say Tav is not a regular spawn
Yes are we not reading the part where he straight out says "drink their blood and you will be free and a true vampire"? which is basically what happens so youre not technically his spawn, he makes you a true vampire AND passes on some of his new powers to you so you can be in the sun and all that or am i the one not understanding things lol like all "he loves me or not" drama aside lmao edit: theres a lot of very interesting lore based insights in these answers thank you 👍
There is a youtube short on Vampire Marriage called 'do you guys heard about vampire marriage?" by nyloth It's very clear that it is the ritual Astarion did with you.
@@covertgoblinyes I was think the same. Is she a full on vampire or not 😅. Bc I think he refers to her as a spawn in some dialogue after . So it’s confusing
There's a theory that says he's trying to trick you into thinking you're his spawn and that he can compel you. But he never actually does nor does he give a straight answer as to whether he can or not (even after the tadpole is removed). Instead he says things like 'you are mine' and 'why would I have to'. Apparently according to the bride/groom lore it's common for the vampire 'master' to want to trick their consort into thinking they can compel them (though I'm not sure what the original source is here). It's also important to note that a consort is still inferior to the one that turned them, but not a slave like a spawn either.
@@shibernyan2009 early on you have the tadpole that prevented Cazador from ordering Astarion, so I think he can't compel you until the end of the game, which is why you cannot break up with Ascended in the end scene when you are free of the tadpole. You also only get the basic bite attack, which is what spawn Astarion had, so in my opinion Tav is some type of a spawn. He assures you that he will turn you completely eventually once you are accustomed to your new self. I tend to think the last one is more the devs not wanting to give the player the same power up.
I played as a Durge who is just as obsessed with Astarion as he is with her. She craves power but rejected Bhaal only because she knew he would make her kill Astarion eventually. So she ascends Astarion to create their own evil legacy together.
@@marshroverv5632Hm, I recall there's also a line somewhere (forgot where) which tells you that if the Dark Urge "you" fully succeed as a bhaal spawn aka. murder everyone, "your" own turn would come in the end, meaning "your" mate would have to die no later than right beforehand. In Gortash'es dialogue, your Urge says that first you rule, then ruin, but that's a much softer clue than the line I'm recallng.
@@VixenDra you 100% get to save your love. I was a male Durge and they gave me the "you need more bhaalspawn" line about keeping Astarion alive and then hesitated and was like "well okay we'll have to find you someone else to procreate with but, still, he'll be fine."
Also if you read DnD bestiaries on vampires like monsters of the multiverse, vampires actually lose the ability to "love" and it's replaced with obsession instead -and more in a vanity/perfection-in-youth sense (the core books specifically used children as an example of an object of obsession...). So all things considered, ascended Astarion's way of showing love is actually not that bad. It's not that good either, but for a vampire it's pretty stellar lmao
I would think that would be one of the limitations removed by the rite (doesn't it restore a vampires soul or something?) but I can't say 💯 and Larian seems content to make us guess 😅
I'm pretty sure this particular quality can't translate over from normal DnD since the Ascension ritual is a BG3 thing. Raphael described it as having all of the qualities of being alive, and the benefits of being a vampire (just stronger). So I doubt Astarion loses his humanity or soul when he ascends. He's likely behaving this way because he's overwhelmed with power, while also being insecure about himself.
Ascended is so fascinating, in a bit of a train wreck kind of way because, really, at what point is he lying to the PC, at what point is he lying to himself, or just masking? I've seen some comments on these videos state that what he describes is not the process for making a regular spawn, but a vampire bride/groom, which creates a very different creature to a spawn. To summarise what I've seen other commenters share: The method is different (instead of just draining, there's three bites, draining, and a drop of blood before the bride/groom dies, so they change before death, not after, going from alive to undead, not alive to dead to undead), and the end result is still very much the same person as when they were alive (unchanged, as he said), shares in the power of the vampire that created them (which since the PC doesn't burn up at the end as spawn-Astarion does, is actually happening), and while bound to the vampire is not fully controlled by them (though they can mutually agree to divorce to break that bond - not likely to happen even if the relationship goes bad given vampire possessiveness and obsession). The biggest down side is the bride/groom, still being of the same mind as when they were alive, doesn't have vampire instincts, no hunger or innate understanding of their needs, so the vampire needs to teach them, which if the vamp messes that up can cause their bride/groom to go mad. So, Ascended Astarion doesn't spell it out (despite calling the PC his consort, which is easily dismissed as flowery flattery), likely due to fear and insecurity and a big ol' dose of Vampiric corruption and twisting of emotions, but in vamp terms he really does flat out marry the PC, right there, before the final fight, the PC really does become his consort, his vampiric spouse. He does care, does love in an extremely possessive, twisted kind of way, that can and does turn flat out abusive if the PC gets buyers regret for the dark situation they've landed themselves in, but it is a kind of love, vampire style.
There is a youtube short on Vampire Marriage called 'do you guys heard about vampire marriage?" by nyloth It's very clear that it is the ritual Astarion did with you. I feel that he doesn't spell this out because, sadly, he still seems too insecure about Tav leaving him. I wish Larian would've made the fact more obvious...that it was a vampire marriage ritual because it would've made that ending more impactful.
and i was there thinking what would happend if you let him bite you, turn you and then u bite him again... but yeah.., what u say makes sense cause Tav does not end in a grave at the end of the scene nor even at the end of the game.
It’s mad how different ascended Astarion acts depending on what dialog options you choose. I’ve seen him be sweet and loving still to straight up evil. This version is a lot more complex than the spawn version and makes me want to try and do a “healthy” vs toxic ascended Astarion to see the differences in its full extent.
it seems to me that you have to be very accepting and more gentle with him immediately after ascending. if you judge him (and what right would tav have to judge considering they HELP him ascend) that’s when his abusive behavior comes out. idk if it is would be like that for eternity, but frankly it’s no surprise to me that he’s not in a stable mental condition after doing what he did
@@cupkneetbf, he’s not really in a stable mindset whether you ascend him or not. I think that it’s downright abusive on MC’s part to help him ascend and then abandon him (if romanced), that’s toxic AF. Never go for ascension unless you’re 100% committed. I knew what I was getting the minute the ritual was all laid out. I imagined some Dracula / Lestat hybrid and that’s exactly what I got and I love it. But it’s not for everyone! To me, it seems like the next generation have been swaddled in too much twilight fix-him drama 😅 Edit: spelling
@@cupkneeI ultimately made him a spawn in my romance playthrough but that was after a reload when at first I failed the persuasion check to get him not to do the ritual. He starts talking to you in a very possessive, but still kinda genuinely romantic? way, but my character hated his condescending possessive tone and broke up with him about it. He took the breakup more gracefully than I expected, and it made a really interesting little story where, from his POV, my character was basically just salty about him finally being free and empowered and therefore less vulnerable/easy to manipulate. Ofc I reloaded after that but I feel like in that timeline, they would become bitter exes who both felt betrayed by the other, both for understandable reasons.
@@cupknee oh yeah definitely no surprise he’s unstable at the moment! I’ve always looked at it more like it’s very accurate to how abusive, possessive and controlling relationships work. The abuser will be satisfied and happy if you agree with them always and never question them but as soon as you start to disagree things will go down hill very fast and true colours will show. Though I never thought of it being more he’s angry that Tav/Durge or Origin character judged him after. Like he says about Cazador they made him like this. It wouldn’t make sense to help him throughout the whole game to just turn on him and make him evil last minute then judge him for it so that also makes a lot of sense. I lean more towards my original theory now the 6 months later epilogue has been released but I know your comment was before that (for some reason I only get notified about replies to my replies not replies to my original comments, sorry about that) but it was nice to think about it from a different point of view and I’ll definitely look at it through a different lens now. Thank you.
@@NWard1210 completely agree on he’s not stable either route! Sometimes I even wonder as well does Spawn Astarion even love Tav/Durge or Origin character or is it just the first time someone has cared for him in so long he’s mistaking it for love because he doesn’t think it’s normal anymore and doesn’t want to loose it. I wouldn’t say it’s abusive for someone to leave someone when they become abusive and possessive (unless we’re talking their character was also evil and planned this the whole time) BUT it’s wrong what the character does if they make Astarion Ascended then leave him and act surprised he behaves the way he does. It was very obvious as soon as Astarion meets his siblings he starts acting more like his Act 1 self again and going down a dark path. To help him all that way to then make him kill all those people and act like he’s the one in the wrong when they helped him do it is awful and definitely not innocent on their part. I think comparing the relationship to Lestat and Louis is extremely accurate actually! I plan on doing something similar for my Tragedy playthrough.
I feel like ascended Astarion had some writer clash going on because this tone is different from his other lines. When you confront the brain it still calls spawn Astarion "the rat catcher that became a lord" (the line in the game script appears twice, so spawn was supposed to get a different one but it didn't get finished on time). Makes me wonder what they were cooking with the upper city but couldn't finish it.
Yeah, the confrontation with the elder brain has a false flag. Curious why it still is not fixed. It searched for a line regarding durge in a normal Tav playthrough and since it can't find that line it defaults to the placeholder answer.
Spawn astarion also has fewer lines when talking to him, and sounds less romantic than before the quest ending. Meanwhile ascended has more than double after you become his consort
You could be right. He seems to be the product of way too many rewrites, where they took fleshed out stories and added a few choice lines/checks to ruin it, and then other paths where its entirely tragic and then added lines to give the tradgedy a positive spin. Theres also serious clash between the game mechanics being displayed and the words he says, that are hard to explain away as 'astarion lies a lot' (controlling vs doing everything we tell him, even in the final cutscene after brain is dead)
Because of a voice line bug you wonder if the Upper city was supposed to be implemented. In act2 the yuan ti armor was bugged for females. Makes me wonder if an Avernus dlc was canceled at the last minute 😮
I've found a lot of inconsistencies like that in Act 3 for all companions and a whole bunch of quests and act 3 is just buggy as hell, I get the feeling they were just trying to rush it out. I'm curious to see how the patch it and what/if they expand in the future. So far so good, new and improved bugs aside they're trending in the right direction, but some content definitely needs adding/fixes for our boy. The approval/disapproval and casual lines/party banter with him post Cazador is a joke, he's basically the same person outside of the cutscenes even though he's a VASTLY different one in them.
i think people view ascended astarion’s route way too black and white. it’s not as simple as “astarion doesn’t love tav anymore”. his love has just become twisted and tainted and i love the tragedy of that. yes he’s controlling and a lot more possessive and it’s obviously not a healthy love but he still loves tav in the only way he knows how after what he’s become. i think a part of spawn astarion is still in there based on some moments where his vulnerability slips through but that part of him is locked very deep inside and the facade he wore in the beginning that was slowly becoming undone, has become nearly hard as steel to penetrate because he never truly got to heal and i find that far more compelling than “he’s pure evil now and incapable of love and feelings” but hey that’s just my interpretation
man i love tragic love stories so even if it is a “bad” ending (and i hate people who say that because they act like it’s so black and white) i still like it as a story lol. and in my opinion, the point of these games is to tell a story. not to always pick the perfect ending.
It's because it's meant to be seen as such. The good vs bad ending. The Good ending that Larian, Stephen, and Neil prefer vs the Bad where the spawn becomes an objectified slice of personal fantasy for the player (being with a Vampire Lord that grants them eternal youth by his side) as they get manipulated and riled up by his practiced charm. It's not meant to be wedged in between where there's back and forth, or possibilities, etc, which is why this shouldn't be complicated. Baldur's Gate 3 is not a dating sim. It's a choice based game where you get close to your companions so that they may help you, and in exchange, you can help them. Which is why letting him Ascend, letting him give up his soul, whatever humanity he had left, assuming it was the "right thing to do for him", is the black in contrast to the white. It is, quite literally, the "abuse becomes the abuser" ending. Just because he shows that he can tolerate Tav, does not mean it's the middle ground.
During the long rest after he ascends before he makes you a vampire if you succeed the insight check you can see what he really thinks of you. He may love you but will never consider you an equal. It makes me think of how in Invincible Omniman still loves his wife but more like a pet than a person.
The detect thought sequence can be taken in two ways. The other way is that he sees himself as inferior to you, so you’re degrading yourself to be with him. I prefer this version because, by choosing to be with him and become his consort, I’m saying he’s worth it.
In the German version the detect thoughts is much clearer than the English one, he thinks that you are degrading yourself by having chosen someone like him since the start, aka he lacks self-confidence
THIS THIS THIS! I was SO confused all the time WHY ppl think he feels like TAV is "below" him when in fact, the german translation clearly states the exact opposite (I also played the game in english on my second playthrough, and i interpreted the english dialogue exactly like the german one). It makes it even more tragic tbh. He literally thinks TAV is too good for him and is crippled (still) by self-doubt EVEN THOUGH he is "an all mighty vampire lord" now. I feel like that is also EXACTLY why he gets so aggressive and possessive whenever TAV doesn't agree with him or calls him out - he knows he is bad for TAV, who has been by his side through it all - and he's probably not gonna be able to treat her right. He might be powerful on the outside now - but inside he is stuck in feeling like he's weak - Neil did SUCH a good job in portraying the ascended side of him - he's almost comically evil but him having to SAY how powerful he is all the time, just seems (to me) like he still has to convince himself of that, because his paranoia still lingers.@@readyraito9154
@@iamalex.7131 yes, i agree all 100 percent with you. It's sad that basically everyone who played in English misinterpreted those lines. To me though, it shows that most of the players were already having poisonous thoughts about ascending him, they had pre-existing judgement and read it exactly in the way they wanted to read it, negatively as a proof that ascended is bad and spawn is good. All I see tbh is a bunch of scaredy-cats being afraid of giving him back the freedom he had when he was human. Spawn Astarion is super dependant on Tav and he will be alone once Tav will meet death.
@@NWard1210 There is a bit of dialogue that plays into this insight check all the way back in Act 2 after the blood merchant tries to get Astarion to bite her. It only appears if you are not romancing him. He starts saying how he uses his looks and charms to manipulate and maybe he doesnt have to. If you specifically answer something like"you may have to to keep us alive" he says "Youre right, its not that I'm lowering myself, its that they degrade themselves every time they fall for it, over and over again". The fact that they specifically choose the word "degrading" yourself again makes me think the game is implying he is reverting back to his old tricks and hates that your falling for it, just like everyone else. You are no longer as special
i 100% believe this too. he gave up the chance of being happy before he even knew how that felt, now he has to live with the consequences of it. or at least as long as his vampirism lets him live with the remorse before it completely corrupts his feelings. so tragic! but a good story nonetheless
@@avashnea Where did you see that he is unhappy?.. I see a very satisfied and confident vampire lord who is involved in politics and throws parties, enjoys food, his reflection, the sun, wealth and the return of full human feelings. If he is in an affair with Tav, he is generally infinitely happy, he received everything he dreamed of: freedom, power, money, strength, a loved one nearby. He dreamed about this the whole game.
@@yuttasparrow0private You see what you WANT to see, not what the game is actually showing you. He's no more happy than Cazador was and is exactly like Cazador, even down to his rules.
It’s interesting to see people arguing over “no he’s toxic and it’s a bad relationship” and “no he loves Tav” Those things aren’t mutually exclusive. They can BOTH be true and even at the same time as eachother. People who engage in toxic or abusive behaviour are capable of love, they just aren’t necessarily capable of creating or maintaining healthy relationships because of their toxic choices and personality
@@morgantollhall no they're not. and its incredibly disrespectful to say that they are. love is not toxic. the "love" present in toxic relationships is something else, disguised as love. when you are loved you don't get abused, simple as that. because someone who actually, truly really loves you would never hurt you in those ways.
Except if you have Tav ask Astarion if he'll take control of them, which is an option I believe later in the dialogue tree, he'll say "Of course not, you're going to be wonderfully obedient." Tav has a dialogue option to ask when they'll become a TRUE vampire, and Astarion reassures them it'll happen "in due time," so even if people misinterpret his explanation, he didn't make Tav a full vampire. Tav is his spawn. Like, yeah, Astarion loves Tav, but Ascended Astarion loves Tav in a way a person loves a possession. If Tav refuses to become his spawn if he's Ascended, they break up. He will only have a Tav that will submit because them becoming his spawn is the only way he can feel secure that they won't and can't betray him.
Okay, show us where in the game Astarion is proven to be capable of magically compelling Tav once the tadpole is removed then. He's all talk. If you guys can believe that he lied and manipulated Tav about loving them, then he could easily lie about having control (just important to note that vampires do resort to lying about how much control they have over their bride/groom to manipulate the latter because they can't magically compel their bride/groom, so words/lies/threats are all they have.)
@@aibhe Tav is a Spawn. A Vampire Bride is a Spawn. Astarion explicitly says he doesn't turn Tav into a full vampire, and in BG, that means with complete autonomy. If you think A!Astarion, the most powerful vampire to ever exist, can't compel his own Spawn, special or otherwise, I have no idea what you think being Ascended even means. & Idk what you mean by "believe" as if it's not plain that Astarion has a history of and does manipulate Tav's feelings before he falls for them and again as A!Astarion re. "I'd never hurt you! I love you. That's what you've been waiting to hear, isn't it? That's what you want?" when trying to convince Tav to become his spawn.
In fact, and I don't say that to be disrespectful of course :) Writers themselves said that ascended Astarion is an ending that shows the players failed to see Astarion beyond their own fantasies. Ascended Astarion is more about possessing a person, a thing even, while non ascending Astarion kept his humanity. In DnD vampires are monsters, the more powerful they are the more they lost their humanity. I don't think Ascended Astarion do loves Tav and in this dialogue I see more of a manipulation and fake comment, he wants Tav as what he owns, not as someone he loves unlike the not acended ending :) This is my own read, based on my playthrough so far and on what I've read from the writers but I love to see all kind of interpetations tbh! I just think it's nice to see also the evil sides of characters regarding the way we lead them through their questlines
That's really weird concept about "failed to see beyond fantasy", because it's not a dating sim, besides romance there are so much more to this story. People choose Ascension not because we get more horny scenes, players didn't know while playing that there will be dominant vampire daddy thing going on after this and also, asexuals exist. Ascension is promising safety, ability walk in the sun and quite a happy looking future for the character and i don't think this kind of motivations is about players inability to see beyond fantasy in him. It's very much a human response, to do whatever it takes to make loved one happy and safe. What it rather shows us it that shady ways to happiness is leading to shady outcomes: not only we are sending 7k souls to hell, we also loosing the soft side of Astarion and basically make him a full-blown villian,a monster. It makes a lot of sense that a guy gets fully currupted after demonic ritual, but nothing about this ending is about "failing to see a person in him". Yep, his love now as currupted and twisted as himself, yet i guess some of us are okay with that's because it's a fantasy story. In spawn ending he stays in extremely dependent position and the whole thing is just looks like perfect "i can fix him" kind of ending, which is not less fantasy thing than a evil ending. For me most of it looked like corny mental health monologues and felt absolutely separated from world setting we are placed, but again, i can accept it as a fairy tale kind of ending(and, i am sorry, but isn't it a dark fantasy game in a first place and all of it is a roleplay,a fantasy, like wtf we even talking about, but anyway)
Though I see the situation a bit differently but I do understand both of your point of view. I agree on the side that the interpretation lays in the eyes of the players and the way we imagine what's Astarion's best option (and maybe what's his true self?). It's a game so we can only interprete. Thanks for these two answers
Thank you for saying this, I feel like some people look at the ascended ending and all they think is "omg wow he's so hot and manipulative 😍" It's fine to fantasize about that, but what bugs me is when people sincerely try to pretend that ascended Astarion is happy. The game blatantly tells you he isn't happy and that he views Tav as someone lesser than him, I don't know how people missed it. Look, it is a fucked up "romance". If that's your thing, by all means, go ahead! Enjoy it! It's fictional after all. But for the love of god don't start doing mental gymnastics to try and justify his behavior when you all know it's screwed up lmaooo
I truly think after doing some lord digging that Astarion made Tav his bride/groom. There’s lore you can search up if you just google it on DnD about how it works and it’s VERY fascinating. At this point I think he manipulates Tav she she/he/they don’t realize Tav has freedom to do whatever they want. Maybe not go in the sun, but Arent bound to Astarion as much as Astarion makes you think. Vampires by nature are VERY obsessed. Their whole being when they make you a bride/groom is dependent on you and takes a whole lot of power to make sure he doesn’t die when you get too much blood, when you don’t die so you don’t be driven insane and go mad. There’s a hidden epilogue by Withers that says, when you break up with Astarion, Astarion still thinks of you and occasionally thinks of inviting you, but that’s not what a lord would do. He has an obsession. Love? Maybe. Love and obsession mixed together? Most likely. He does have feelings for you, just very different compared to Spawn Astarion
Sorry if this gets long I just really love his story and his character development so I’m prone to hyper fixation rambling 😂… but like …. I think he’s lying? ignoring the fact that full vampires cannot love. like it’s literally canon that they can’t . His whole back story is about him being good at telling people what they want to hear in order to get what he wants / what his master asked of him, and as a full vampire he wants to possess you so he’ll spout whatever romantic drivel you wanna hear if it means he can do that. I mean you’re free to interpret/ head canon how you like, and live out your vampire power fantasy (it’s a role playing game after all), but like he still calls you a spawn on more than one occasion and if you try to break up with him he says basically ‘tough tits I own you. You literally can’t leave.’ If you don’t go through with it he will literally say he was manipulating you, he’s good at it, and that he would have used you and your love for him. If you read his mind you’ll hear that he sees you as debasing yourself to be with him. They put in that first scene you showed to foreshadow your fate, just like you get that scene where he’s using all his best lines on you one of his lines is literally ‘I love you’ which shows he’s not above saying that when he doesn’t mean it. I think the fact that most of the clips you see of ascended astarion are of him being an asshole is pretty telling. The writers put a lot of work into deconstructing the sexy vampire fantasy and it feels kind of unfair to ignore it. But like it is just a role playing game. So as long as your story leaves you feeling satisfied that’s all that matters.
Of course he has a twisted sense of "love". Hes a vampire after all, but I thought its interesting how as a spawn he wouldnt even consider the thought of a real vampire doing something like that for a spawn because his own master was nothing but awful to him, yet when he gets the chance to turn you he does the very thing he would have never imagined a master would allow a spawn to do. I guess its what he believes caring for someone is, of course in a twisted way because vampirism. What i mean is if a vampire was capable to love someone this would be the closest it gets lol On spawn Astarion: I do believe spawn astarion feels love for you from that point on though, after all how can he truly say he loves you if he has never experienced love before and has been forced to act as a partner and mimic love for centuries. He has a looot of work to do before he can actually identify those feelings as love and recieve love from someone. The thing with ascended Astarion is all those insecurities and feelings from his spawn self are exaggerated and turned into obsession and posessiveness for you because of vampirism and dark desire. Also Ascended Astarion is quite an insecure man so he would rather humiliate you before admiting he is hurt that you dont want to spend eternity together after he showed you his vampire peepee
@@covertgoblin I mean I’m just not sure how he’s done something he said a vampire master would never do… He makes you a spawn. HIS spawn. You are not equals you never will be because he will never let go of that power he has over you, just like he said a vampire master would never do. The game is basically trying to warn you that being turned into a spawn is the bad ending for his arc.
I fully agree with everything, except they’re not deconstructing the vampire myth at all, they’re reinforcing it. That’s how actual vampires have always been portrayed, starting with Stoker.
Also note with the vampire bride theory is one of Ascended Astarion’s lines is him loving the idea of Bhaal’s army of you play as Durge, saying it would be a lovely dowry like WHERES THE DOWRY COMING FROM IF NOT FROM A MARRIAGE
Exactly! The Durge play through is pretty much the only one where he explicitly mentions anything about a marriage, but the same would be true for other MCs who allow AA to turn them.
I just think there should be more choices to hug him in the game as there are a few times dialogue should have given the option to hug him for comfort 😢❤️
See Ascended Astarion reminds me of a AMA on reddit with a person who was either a psychopath or sociopath (I can't remember which) who was married with a wife and three kids I believe. He doesn't believe that he truly "loves" his children, but he sees them more as toys in the sense that they are beings that he can mould/shape while still having their independence and minds. To him, the children are not dolls that he can play with, but independent people he has a chance at shaping and feels protective over. In my own opinion at least that's how Astarion views his relationship with Tav. Tav is not a person he can outright control, at least not that we can see, and he recognizes them as their own independent person, but there is a bond of possessiveness and protectiveness that binds them, not to mention lust, of course. Without a soul he cannot truly feel emotions such as love, but something in him does its damn best to replicate that into vampiric feelings for Astarion, and in his own twisted way he truly does love Tav, but it's just not in a way that he used to as a spawn.
I don't think we have to take it's necessarily this serious, but if we do, i would say this: I suspect that writer's intention was to show narcissistic obsession. Narcissist is not really attached to you or love you, but they are extremely obsessed with their own need for you and your love,and they are hyper controlling because of their extreme fear of rejection and abandonment in any form. Astarion himself is a good example of a person with narcissistic footprint. I have read about this term in my native language, i am not sure how it's called in English, but basically it's a psychological trauma that makes person without narcissistic disorder act very much like a narcissist without actually having this condition. Its usually obviously caused by severe narcissistic abuse and I kinda feel like it describes Astarion trauma quite well: he definitely can't be diagnosed (before the ritual) with narcissistic disorder because he has really well-developed empathy, but he was abused by Cazador for so long that he absorbed a lot from his abuser's personality. Despite probably being an assh0le even before Cazador, he rather had some narcissistic traits but not a full blown disorder. I feel like people demonize both Asc Astarion and narcissists in real life and as narcissistic abuse victim myself, I completely understand that. Yet we should understand that some people become vampires/narcissists for quite tragic reasons, you don't have to be sympathetic for your abusers irl because you know, let them burn in hell, but as i mentioned earlier, there is such thing as narcissistic footprint. I can't really make myself hate Asc Astarion, i rather feel incredibly sorry to see how his desperate attempt to finally feel safe and protect vulnerable side of his heart backfires so freaking much in this ending. Narcissistic rage caused by harmed narcissistic fragility(also interesting term if you want to explore what's wrong with our vampire dude) is terrible thing, scary to watch even in the game. If anyone one get interested in this topic, i strongly recommend Dr.Ramani channel here on UA-cam, especially her video about narcissist understanding of love and how narcissists are made.
as someone with aspd yeah, he rings all the bells. People with aspd do kinda feel love I think but not the same as others. If something is mine I will be very protective of it and I would commit murder to protect it. (Not speaking from experience but I have done some legally questionable things to protect my friends.) As soon as I get rejected I switch up instantly and the desire to break or hurt becomes really intense. I'd guess AA is the same in that.
beautifully said! I think you hit the nail on the head with that one - which imo makes it just so much more tragic because i am sure a lot of people chose AscAstarion because they wanted "the best for him" - e.g. making his "own" decisions ("own" in this case because the decision is made in a moment of complete overhelm/trauma) and him being able to walk in the sunlight and never to be controlled by anyone again. Thanks for sharing! @@another_one_0
Ascended Astarion admited he would've used and manipulated Tav after you broke up with him. He makes not-so-subtle degrading remarks if you try to break up with him. Also, he calls karlach defective and useless after trying to bite her, so there's that. Textbook definition of toxic relationship.
True talk, yo, True talk, yo. His love is very selfish and predatory, it is a love-obsession. Vampire love. He was essentially a vampire spawn whose senses and feelings of the world are also distorted, and always will be as long as he is a vampiristic creature, this is no fairy tale. By the way, as a mortal elf, he was also power hungry and a corrupted magistrate. Such a naughty little fellow. I'm very glad Larian let whoever likes it enjoy a passionate dark.
Oh, and also, "manipulated your feelings until you were nothing." Tav: Break up with him knowing that we've become very important to him. Astarion the Ascended: *puts out his teeth and fangs, hurting us* Tav: surprised pikachu face. What do you think he should have said after the breakup? "I respect your choice, darling. I'm sorry it happened, of course, but there we go. I would have loved only you for all eternity, and I still do and will. You are the most important person in my life and true love. I wish you happiness." - is weakness and refinement for a Vampire Lord who's just been left behind. This man approved when we stole something from a kid. He's kind of the antonym of righteousness, he's immoral. So he's still kind of soft on us. Considering he hates being weak. He tells us in a very logical way, keeping his strength. Is he hiding something? Well, I'm sure he is. This is how I understand Ascended Astarion: he is destructive and he is fire. If you upset fire, it burns you, if you are good with fire, you get warmth and bread. And if he was a total nasty vampire, he would have bitten Tav in the night, nothing would have stopped him. Strange that he didn't, I think he wouldn't mind trying cunning to convince us, or charisma in the future.
@@alexandradel9712 Stop coping. You can literally detect his thoughts right before the sex scene after he ascends. Guess what you find out? That he looks down on you and that he will *never* see you as his equal. This has nothing to do with upsetting him beyond bruising his pride; he absolutely doesn't love you. Ascended Astarion is nothing but a corrupted shell of his former self. He becomes the mask he was putting on previously, aka Cazador 2.0. You're flat out misunderstanding his entire character and the ramifications of the ascension choice if you think otherwise.
@@ssshjsssj5033 Vampire spawns are twisted, corrupted, vampires too, always, no masks, they are very honest. Astarion corrupted from the very beginning, just look in the digital artbook. Masks... You make it sound like he hasn't enjoyed the power and carnage since Act 1. But he has, very honestly. Yes, a test of wisdom that says " perhaps we want to degrade ourselves and he knows it". He's not wrong. Yeah, you said " Cazador 2," you feel better now? Good. I'm wondering when your weird witch hunt and moralizing essays are gonna end. I've already had that experience of communicating such an argument on Astarion, so that's the end of my answers to you.
It is so annoying because manipulative/evil/clever character should be able to say Astarion: "I will help you ascend, on one condition that you will make me a true vampire as well. Let's make a pact."
You do realize this would still be irrelevant right? Spawn astarion loves you like Gomez loves Morticia. Ascended astarion loves you like a collector or an artist. You're to be admired and kept for his pleasure not for yours.
I thought that Ascended Astarion was pure evil, but seen this, maybe my chaotic good warlock will try a healthy ascended Astarion romance, while my goody two-shoes cleric will just love healthy unascended Astarion.
He's only at step one. If Tav has some autonomy, which I'm assuming they do considering he gave her his blood. Not a lot but still. She'll probably be able to push back if he reaches for stage 2.
@@kayleighbrown459 tav can respond that they have no freedom with him and he dismisses it like tav should be thankful for everything he provides in exchange for their autonomy.
Its really weird how everyone is renaming what is only abuse as love when it has a pretty face on it. But it explains why so many cant leave an abusive relationship.
Spawn ending is equally romanticized "i can fix him" and has co-dependency undertone, yet significant part of fanbase accidentally got moral superiority complex and now busy policing everyone with it
if you took some more time to analyze both endings you would realize both mirror each other. spawn astarion is vulnerable, he can be abused, tav is the only thing he has. what happens if tav doesnt help him heal? the game lets you gaslight him, betray him and he will stay by your side no matter what. that is no better. but then again its only comments like these that want to argue about which ending is better and whos a better boyfriend to tav when the discussion isnt about that
@@Bmo-xth I love both endings,despite being critical towards spawn ending(or rather i am questioning fandom perception of it),i still genuinely enjoyed both It's okay to feel passionate and emotional about game character, but this toxic flood has to be addressed and cut off(naive hopes, but maybe in one day...), we can debate how unhealthy/toxic/loveless our imaginary vampire bf is, but this - this is bullying, clown level of it. Toxic fanbase keeps repeating the same narrative, they don't even try to engage in open and honest discussion, i highly doubt that this approach has anything to do with "i am just worried about you all romanticizing abuse,blah blah blah". It feels like too many people who had no idea what roleplay is have entered the fandom It seems to me like Asc Astarion fans are treating this more like a game roleplay, and toxic Spawn fans are rather have something of parasocial/limerence kind of attachment to this character, but again,no judgement, couldn't care less if not this drama over nothing
@@another_one_0Now you're just projecting at this point. All of your comments have been you saying how wrong and toxic Spawn Astarion fans are, while ranting about how your equally messed up option is objectively better.
I don't doubt that ascended Astarion loves Tav, however, it's a very twisted and unhealthy love. My main issue is that ascended Astarion definitely isn't happy, and that's why I personally couldn't bring myself to do it in more than one playthrough
@@another_one_0 It's debatable whether or not Astarion is happy in the spawn ending, and I honestly agree with you, neither of his endings are really "good". But he is undeniably miserable in the ascended ending. When you really compare the two, based on what the game shows us (who knows how he feels after the events of the game), I think he's infinitely happier if he never ascends. Additionally, it's also a much healthier romance lol
@@_mexiril_1584 i mean, "I am vicious violent man who takes pleasure in murder and torture, my main ambition in life is power and having fun, there is a way to become more powerful, rule the world and cause chaos on whole new level" yes, i think evil Astarion would enjoy being vampire lord very much, why shouldn't he? o.O
I wish it were as simple as it looks in this video. That Astarion ascending could just be a good thing. I just watched a video called *"Burn (Ascended Astarion animatic)",* and I think that is probably accurate to how things would end up with Ascended Astarion...as apparently ascended vampires always become a twisted, cruel version of who they once were.
@@seliamila1005 I'm not. It's a piece of things. But, speaking of that, I think you haven't seen all the angles. "Happy"...as long as you don't mention wanting freedom. A "six months later" is nice. But any abusive relationship can only last so long. Ascended, he doesn't give a shit about Tav. If you manage to read his mind before he makes Tav a vampire, they spell it out that he doesn't respect you. And that he resents/hates Tav for letting him do it. So no, I'm not basing it off fan content alone. D&D ascended vampires become a twisted form of themselves. A bard who wants to make people happy will turn into a vampire that forces people to dance, and kills those who don't. A paladin who wants to keep people safe will become a tyrant. The difference between ascended Astarion and normal Astarion is palpable. If anything, you should see what happens when ascended Astarion tries to turn Karlach. If the ensuing events don't break your heart and show you how valuable his "consort" is...well. Don't get me wrong. I _want_ a happy Astarion ascended end. But giving Sebastian another chance at life and love, letting the Gur learn that not all "monsters" are evil, letting Astarion become his own person instead of becoming like Cazador...instead of Tav's value being directly tied to how obedient they are... Obviously it's a game. And at the end of the day, it's up to the individual what they see in the art. But what I see, when seeing all the angles...it seems like a thinly-veiled "happiness" to me, at best.
This conveniently ignores the scene you get after breaking up where he makes it evident that he does not. He is obsessed with Tav, but love? No. How could he love someone that is beneath him? That is as low as the person he was, the person you both killed, to make him what he is now? He does not love you. In fact, I think he barely cares about you.
If he doesn't care he wouldn't have given you any of his blood at all. He's just turn you into what he was. Like, yeah. He says that. But Astarion is nothing if not full of shit.
I don't get people who romance him and yet still think he'll control Tav. These people clearly haven't read his lines, since he clearly says he gave Tav his blood, and in future both him and Tav would drink from each other. I see Ascended Astarion as high. He's been a slave for two centuries, now he's the one in charge, the powerful one, and it clearly goes to his head. But he's still a terrible liar. Go have a threesome with the twins after he Ascended. Asterion says yes, but it's crystal clear that he didn't enjoy it afterwards, because he's basically gaslighting himself into doing stuff he thinks he's supposed to be doing now that he's free, including the conquering the world bullshit. It will take time to get down from that, but after a while, by the writing AND acting he got, he will go back more or less to his usual self. This route has the POTENTIAL to be the evil one. But it's not a given. I don't think it's the bad ending or anything, just a different ending. Basically the difference is Ascended Astarion tackles the physical problem (being a spawn, not being able to go into the sun after the tadpole is removed) before the emotional one, while the other route tackled the emotional problem (his insecurities) before the physical one.
Thank you! Yes, I think that too. When you wait with the ascension until right before the bossfight (or avoid camp) against the brain and the epilogue, he is way less controlling because theres way less things to fear, he is free of his tadpole and a bit of time has passed since he ascended. He is just completely drunk on power, but it will ebb away eventually. And unlike a "normal" Vampire Lord, he can enjoy "the joys of man", how raphael put it. Mephistopheles Blessing grants him the ability to love. He just has to get his stupid paranoid vampire blood under control. I think a long, deep, sincere talk with him while being somewhere he feels save could do wonders. It wouldnt cure his lying self instantly of course, but its a first step. 😅
Tav replies in the epilogue “No one dares touch us, my love”. Though Astarion doesn't mind a good fight and a bit of chaos, as always ХD Love the vibes of this evil couple of ally-lovers
For those of you who think Ascended Astarion "still loves Tav", play as Karlach and try the Ascended route. Hell, you can even do everything he tells you to do. Then you can see his true colors.
@@Bmo-xth there's a bunch of potential reasons and sadly we just don't know. My rule of thumb is if it's cut then it's cut for a reason and can't be considered canon anymore, but a lot of the cut content does still make perfect sense so make of it what you will for your personal head canons. I think that's part of the fun.
I understand that I don't see the difference in vampiric and human love so far (I've only played BG3 so far and slowly introduce myself to the D&D lore and mechanics through videos). I mean, there are words like "obsession", "posession" etc. coming from many people while they define vampiric love without concrete behavioural examples (like scenes from life) of it and without these examples the words sound a bit meaningless for me, at least in case of AAsterion/Tav relationship one can see in the game. To be clear, "posessive" means for me situations when a person goes on their partner like "don't go to your friends, you have me", "talk only to me", "why are you looking at them, when you have me?", "why have it taken so long for you to talk to them, when I'm here?". Do we get phrases like that from AAstarion? No, never, actually. He doesn't mind Tav going to the reunion party, he wishes even to host it, he encourages her to go and have fun with friends without him. Apart from that, he even doesn't mind an affair with Halsin (which is a bit too libertine for my liking, but never the less)! Where is here this extreme scarry posessivenes many people are talking about? I suppose, the people are a bit neurotic, because a posessive person will never even let somebody glimps in another direction without an immediate reaction least being ok with an affair. Concerning "obsessive", it means for me situations, when a person goes like "I can think only of you and nothing else at all in my life concerns me or is interresting to me", "I don't want to go out, meet anybody, have friends or fun when I'm with you", "why shall I have plans for life? I can't think about my life, I can think only about yours and about you", "I don't have hobbies and interest apart from you", "I can't see where I end and you begin", "your things are my things" etc. None of it applies for Astarion either. He wants to conquer the world, so he has a plan for his life (moralisations aside, it is a goal in life, like making carreer), he wants to travel and taste "everything Fayerun has to offer", so he clearly takes interest in life overall. He always talks about having fun and is very enthusiastic about things he conciders fun, so he's not at all limiting himself to the fun of Tav, he wants fun for him self from sources iutside of their relationship. He says that he has it all, talks about his powers, about his plans and not non-stop about Tav. All he wants is just to share all his gifts with a person he cherishes and feels being gifted with. He diesn't loose himself in Tav, one can even break up with him and you won't see him followinv you in the game or sending minions after you. So, from my point of view, one can cross out "obsessive" part from the AAstarion/Tav relationship too. What are we left with? I guess it's just love as it is. Love of a powerful person towards the less powerful one. The only issue here is definitely power imbalance, which can be evened out when Tav is made true vampire by Astarion (or bride/groom as people here mention), and the relationship is perfectly normal with a bit of kinky spice to save things from turning dull. That's it.
I think that was the last of AA's good and morality. That last bit kept your from blindly becoming his slave and trapping you like he was but he sill continues the cycle of abuse.
Tbh this explanation seems very conventional. And, well, conventional things don't appear as they are in people like him. I do believe he very much appreciates the ability of using you and manipulating you, hence him not allowing you to be un-sired. And him turning you into a bride, a special type of spawn, is a show of that too. He still doesn't grip his new freedom neither emotionally nor cognitively. He still is a shitty little vampire that hurts. To me, it's when he talks to you about his grand plans and wishes. The way he trusts you with how much he desires after all the years of feeling unsatisfied. That's trust. Emotional, phisical, cognitive. Yes, he may include you as a last thought, but he does want you to be the part of both plan and planning. Thats unity in vile. Vile that he carried alone all the way. That's important because it's the way you reach this ending, by being vile. You might betray each other thousand times in future, you might hurt and destroy. You will still be one, soul to soul. I think the idea is that in no other circumstances would anyone let astarion kill 7k random dudes for any kind of power and revenge. So, it's not about freedom. It's about being the only ones. Which is quite, uh, amoral? Idk the english word. Its not considered a good thing commonly. And, well, it's not. And that's beautiful.
' You will still be one, soul to soul. I think the idea is that in no other circumstances would anyone let astarion kill 7k random dudes for any kind of power and revenge. So, it's not about freedom. It's about being the only ones. ' THIS omg I never thought about it this way. When I first started this game I was SOOOO against ascended astarion but now.. the idea is warming up to me lmao there are so many underlying things with him in that route and its so interesting to see them unvielded and everyone's opinions and takes on it!
when he says he wants to take the world and is discussing these plans with you, he also says something like "I want to make whole world yours and mine alone". I play the game in my native language (subtitles) and it's translated to "I want to make whole world ours", which takes a lot from this dialog. For me, this dialog shows, how much Astarion takes you into consideration in his future ruling the world. Although there are dialogs, when he's more selfish, there are rare moments like that. It's either because he's manipulative or he still truly cares.
i’m obsessed with tragic love stories. i can see tav and astarion’s love wreaking havoc on everyone around them and eventually maybe they’ll get put down (together) by the next hero who comes along. but no one can say their love didn’t burn a hole in the world 😩
As much as I prefer spawn Astarion route, I'm definitely trying this one at least once. I even have a character in mind to do so (my OC from different game lol) I feel like Ascended Astarion is pretty horrible at times, but I like this outcome because of story reasons. I'm not teady yet to try to romance him in this state, but maybe... My OC character actually would do both, keep him as a spawn and ket him do the ritual - for simply having someone to love. My deranged self-righteous high elf mage would be good match for him lol this or evil durge to try out obviously. I don't hate Ascended Astarion, but as for my own romance I prefer other route, it feel a bit more for me. Or maybe I just want to be the stronger one at least once and protect him (in some sense). I kove how complex his character is and both outcomes make perfect sense for me, even if one almost breaks my heart I'm starting to see why so many people defend it. I might not agree with all that pure love confessions from Ascended Astarion, but I want to see it for myself, not just bits of opinions of other people. My biggest problem with this would be that... I want to be dominant myself or at least have option to switch parts 😂 I'm bot submissive overall, but maybe I will be able to create character who would be more willing just for fun of it (If I won't die cringing, I hope not, I like Astarion too much 😂) Somehow seeing both sides helps me understand that .. people are crazy af for being this hateful towards others 💀 Sorry for a bit dramatic puke of words, very good video btw 👍 I got information I wanted to see.
@@user-vd1rf6iq9h Honestly I'm not scared of him. More like annoyed 😂 but I will definitely try to go with this in future play through. Not sure if I will handle romance route with him this way, but we might be a-hole badass bros 😁 I will see how it goes. I genuinely like his character (like most companions) but Astarion and Gale are so relatable sometimes for me it's scary. Definitely well written stories.
For me more proof, when Tav become mind flayer and their dialogue after ending. Where he doesn’t need to lie anymore at all and says about his feelings and suggest alliance.
"You were already perfect before, its hard to improve" - its so obvious he is saying that to avoid the character begging to turn them into a full vampire, he wants all the power and he will never share it xD its such a great manipulative character writing!
I still have my doubts. Cause Ascended Astarion breaks up with you immediately if you don't become his spawn. He he really loved me he would want to be with me whether I was his spawn or not. But he's like either become my spawn or it's over. He wants to own you, possess you. That's not love. You can tell that after you become a spawn and you ask him whether he would ever control you. Then he says he won't need to cause you'll be obedient. So what if I'm not obedient? What if we get into a fight or argument? He'll end up using his powers to control you
He can’t because, if he turns you, you become a bride / groom and vampire lords can’t control them the same way they can their spawn. Read the lore on it, it’s very interesting. And it’s a vampire love - people really are forgetting that spawn astarion is still a vampire and neutral evil. This whole, I can fix him, attitude is completely OOC because vampires are built differently. If you want a wholesome love, maybe try dating someone else.
@NWard1210 I think you're confused. Are you sure you're talking about vampire Lore in DnD specifically? Cause Astarion admits he's turning you into a spawn. Not some actual consort or bride. He just thinks that spawn is an ugly word cause he does in his super twisted way care as he would any important possession. But when you ask to become a true vampire and not his spawn. He hesitates, saying you'll "work up to that" or something. It seems to be easier to control you as a spawn should he need to than if you were a true vampire. He even admits that he CAN control you. But as I said he doesn't think he'll need to cause he expects you to be obedient. And as his spawn, if you try to break up with him, he gets super angry and says something along the lines of no way in hell that's happening. I own you. I control you. You're mine forever, and there's nothing you can do about it. Cause again, once you become his spawn, you are not free. You're tied to him forever. You are his possession. And Spawn Astarion romance was wholesome. Especially after his confession. I'm wondering if you saw all the same scenes that I did. Astarion has shown that vampires do have feelings, do experience love, guilt, sadness. Just a little twisty than normal people After the events with Cazador, even Jaheira commented that maybe she shouldn't believe all the rumors she heard about vampires because not ascended Astarions display with Cazador. Even the monster hunters, the gur, promise to leave Astarion alone cause he proved to be different from his other vampire brethen. Ascended Astarion is even more twisted and dark than normal spawn Astarion. I saw every scene possible involving these two versions of Astarion.
@@camille6853 What he’s says and what he does are two different things. Bride / groom lore says three bites and the maker’s blood. And the newly turned MC can go mad if they’re given too much blood straight away. AA just doesn’t say it outright.
@NWard1210 you keep saying bride / groom Lore, but show me where in DnD vampire Lore that states that if follows bride groom lore. Not every game/series/franchise follows the exact same Lore for vampires. Unless it specifically says that it does, then you're just making stuff up to fulfill your own head canon. And as far as I know, DnD vampire Lore has never mentioned ever following bride/groom Lore. So we can take what Astarion says and does as truth unless stated otherwise
@@camille6853a quick google found the excerpt you are looking for (fyi, this is rather long and taken directly from Richten's Guide to Vampires, which was an AD&D 2e era supplement): Vampire Brides and Grooms There are several nontraditional processes of creating new vampires as well, but these are much less widely known. One is in the taking of a "bride" or a "groom". Creating a bride or groom, although seemingly a simple process, requires an exhausting exercise of much power by the creating vampire. For this reason, only vampires of advanced age and capability can even assay this procedure. A bride or groom can be created only by a vampire of age category Ancient or greater, and not even all of those are capable of doing so. The first step requires that the vampire find an appropriate mortal to be the bride. (Note: With apologies to the feminine gender, I shall use the term "bride" and the pronouns "she" and "her" to refer to both brides and grooms. Unless otherwise specified, there are no restrictions or differences in the procedure based on the sex of either vampire or victim.) Usually this problem solves itself. Very rare is the vampire who decides in isolation, "I will make a bride", and then seeks out a mortal to fill the bill. In the vast majority of cases, the process occurs in the reverse order. The vampire is drawn emotionally to a mortal and decides, because of the strength of this emotion, to make her his bride. The nature of this emotion can vary widely. It may simply be hormonal lust (after all, the physiological systems related to such effects in mortals are still present, and sometimes still functional, in vampires). It may be an obsession dating from the days before the vampire became what he now is, as is the case with Strahd Von Zarovich's obsession with women who resemble his lost Tatyana. In these cases, the vampire creates its bride in cold blood, for the sole purpose of satisfying its own desires. Sometimes, however, the emotion may be close to what mortals classify as love. The happiness of the vampire becomes tied up with the prospective bride, and its well-being depends on hers. In these cases, the vampire might actually believe it is bestowing a gift when it turns the mortal into its bride - the gift of freedom from aging and death. To actually create the bride, the vampire bestows what is known as the "Dark Kiss.” It samples the blood of its mortal paramour - once, twice, thrice - draining her almost to the point of death. This process causes the subject no pain; in fact, it has been described as the most euphoric, ecstatic experience, in comparison to which all other pleasures fade into insignificance. Just as the subject is about to slip into the terminal coma from which there is no awakening, the vampire opens a gash in its own flesh - often in its throat - and holds the subject's mouth to the wound. As the burning draught that is the vampire's blood gushes into the subject's mouth, the primitive feeding instinct is triggered, and she sucks hungrily at the wound, enraptured. With the first taste of the blood, the subject is possessed of great and frenzied strength, and will use it to prevent the vampire from separating her from the fountain of wonder that is its bleeding wound. It is at this point that the creator-vampire's strength is most sorely tested. He is weakened by his own blood loss, and also by his own rapture as the "victim" of a dark kiss. Overcoming the sudden loss of strength and the inclinations of lust, the vampire must pull her away from its own throat, hopefully without harming her, before she has overfed. Should the subject be allowed to feed for too long, she is driven totally and incurably insane, and will die in agony within 24 hours. Once the subject has stopped feeding, she falls into a coma that lasts minutes or hours, at the end of which time, she dies. Several hours later, she arises as a Fledgling vampire - and her creator's bride! Her vampire creator must be present to teach her the requirements and limitations of her vampiric existence. Otherwise, she might not understand the necessity of feeding, and might even wander out into the sunlight and be destroyed. The first moment that the bride realizes the ugly truth about her new nature can be highly traumatic, unless her creator takes steps to ease her acceptance. Even if her creator is sensitive to her emotional pain and gentles her into realization, only the most strong-willed person can come through that moment of understanding with sanity totally unshaken. The simultaneous acts of love and hatred, or taking a bride by murdering her, create an emotional paradox which is often impossible to resolve. In some cases, perhaps a majority, the knowledge of her fate totally unseats the bride's reason, and she becomes wildly and irrevocably mad. If this occurs, most creator vampires will be forced to mercifully destroy their brides - in the prescribed manner, as described later - and end their suffering. Of course, some cruel creatures will simply allow her to wander off to meet her own fate, even though doing so will cause the creator vampire some damage.
of course he still loves tav, it just turned twisted and weird. just like how an abusive narcistic person that also love their significant other but always subtly putting control over them.
yeah it baffles me that people made up this idea that ascended astarion just sees you as a puppet. he is nothing but grateful and deeply eternally in love. my heart sank when just before turning you he says "you have given me everything. thank you."
Play as Gale or Karlach. He's disgusted at you for factors beyond your control because he can't turn you and breaks up with you. You can't stay with him if you refuse to become a spawn. In the ending scene, if you try to break up with him and you're his spawn, he laughs and says your fate is up to him to control now that the tadpole is gone. Letting him ascend is telling him you want him to control you.
@@HyuugaKirine he is angry you dont want to be his spawn because to him thats the equivalent of marrying you, its not something vampires do just like the video says hes making an exception for tav, if tav refused of course he wont take it well i thought we had already realized he is mean to cope with rejection. I dont know why people act like spawn astarion was never mean or never lied to you and act surprised if ascended astarion does the same thing
@@HyuugaKirine ua-cam.com/video/wllJaKF49MQ/v-deo.htmlsi=LZRIuDkn-9fZy6LO It's sheds more light on their romance, so it's more complicated than you state here
@@covertgoblin yeah but my quibble is people calling that "love". He's obsessive and possessive, not in love. If you can accept that Tav is becoming a vampire bride/groom according to DnD lore, then you also need to read what happens to true vampires: "Whether or not a vampire retains any memories from its former life, its emotional attachments wither as once-pure feelings become twisted by undeath. Love turns into a hungry obsession."
He actually tells you he loves you, the same night he turns you into a vampire. Right before it happens, you have to select the option: “After everything you went through with Cazador, you’re going to make me a spawn?”
There's apparently one other way to become a "true" vampire that Astarion did not mention (likely because he is not aware of it), but it's very specific and very unlikely to happen: you must have a Succubus *legitimately* fall in love with you while you are still mortal. In short, you need to win the genuine love of a demon/devil that would normally see such an interaction/relationship as a simple act of physical carnal pleasure, and yet you need to make said Succubus come to love you for who you are entirely of her own volition. This will apparently result in you transforming into a true Vampire at some point (and likely one with a Succubus bride).
Ascended Astarion quite literally admits he would've used your love for his own gain until nothing was left of it depending on certain dialogue choices. His soul died when he ascended, and so did any love he felt for you. That is the consequence of letting him ascend, you basically lose him to himself
That's only if you break up with him... of course he will try to get back at you for literally betraying him and breaking his heart?! He's hurt, and he'll try to explain in every way how you could leave him after everything you both went through, in a way that makes him stand above you. It's completely understandable with how he is, that he would react this way.
Sometimes people love comes from their ego. Narcissistic people still are able to love with all their heart, although mostly in forms that hurt those we love. The more egotistical love is, the stronger the bond and anxiety is. You don't loose Astarion to ascension, you let some parts of his character prevail. Loving someone because they're the one you feel complete with can be a strong feeling even if it's only for your own gain. Even if that gain can be overpowered.
@@randomdogfacts9289 Thar's flat out untrue. You can use Detect Thoughts on him after he ascends at one point and you're literally told that he's looking down on you and will never see you as an equal. He is being brutally honest: he would have used your love as nothing as a tool. Look, I get that some of you really like the idea of having it all. You want live happily ever after with Astarion for all time after he becomes super powerful. But it's pure cope or a blatant misunderstanding of his character arc and the Ascended choice to think this is anything but his bad ending. The game all but says that he becomes nothing but Cazador 2.0.
@@ssshjsssj5033 Oh no, I'm not ignorant that it's a toxic imbalanced kind of relationship, after all this is his 'bad ending' said by Larian. What I'm arguing is that people take a completely understandable reaction to being cast aside and basically being called a monster husk to your face, mean. Were people expecting flowers and an 'I'm sorry' from him after that? Also saying he becomes Cazador 2.0 just proves you also don't understand his character at all, lol. Tavs mere existence goes against anything Cazador stands for, his rules, his way of existing. Ascended Astarion is very accomodating of you, and is in a power hungry state of mind, nothing more than that. The insight check proves to me that he still sees himself as little even after becoming ascendant and he's all but masking his emotions cause they go against what his new nature is pushing for after transformation, and you staying is very conflicting for him. He's scared of losing you, he makes you his vampire 'bride' so he'll never fear losing you. That's why for me only an equally power hungry person like Durge can be a match for asc. Astarion.
@@jennythif2530 Well said 🙏 I'm not denying it's toxic, but it's still love, just a warped high-fiction complicated form of love. And that toxicity can come from /both/ sides, after all BG3 is a storytelling narrative and you're more than encouraged to make your own history with the cards you're dealt by the game.
Well.... If you ask him if he will make you a real vampire he tells that "you are not ready yet darling" :) I personally see it as "I'm not ready to trast people"... But still... It shows that there are boundries to his care)
Vampires don't feel emotions, but Astarion just mimics what he used to feel for TAV, Astarion still has respect for our TAV for everything we did for him, but he no longer feels anything other than the memory he had of the relationship, so that's why that Astarion x Durge is the best option for me, they both don't feel anything, but they enjoy each other's carnal and sadistic pleasure
@@seliamila1005 spawns and Vampire Lords are different. Spawns retain their personalities, for the most part so do normal Vampires but Lords are forcefully changed into a Lawful Evil being that no longer retains their human characteristics. Read up on 5e lore.
It’s so hard trying to find a safe space to enjoy ascended astarion content without being constantly bombarded by people who are trying to force their opinion down our throats (whether we like it or not). Ironic really, when you think about it. Ascended astarion is more considerate than spawn fans are
@@NWard1210 it's especially funny that he's even more sappy to you as ascended and isn't abusive at all if you just treat him the same way you did before ascension, which shouldn't even be a hard thing to do, but apparently some hardcore Spawnstarions love to make a surprised pikachu face when they purposefully choose dialogue options to upset him like BREAKING UP WITH HIM Like I've been emotionally abused for over a decade, if he was truly that horrible to my character I wouldn't like him
im not particularly an ascended fan i mostly just like all astarion content regardless of which version it is. i just think the whole thing about one of the writers talking about this being his "bad ending" made the whole conversation spiral into shaming people who prefer the ascended version of him. to me its not about objectifying him or sexualizing him like one of the writers said but more of a "i never want him to suffer and feel powerless again". i could do without the kink stuff but i do understand some people do enjoy a more dominant figure and they have their reasons to do so, often times those reasons are also rooted in abuse so i wouldnt go around shaming them, its a nuanced topic
@@covertgoblin yeah when I read about that "if you ascend him you failed to see him as a person and only see him as a sexual object" I was like....yeah, totally that's what my acespec ass had in mind all the time, only lust no thoughts 💀
@@prnc96 Well didn't you know? They only love the parts of Astarion that's easy to love (his "human" side). They can't love him at his worst because the moment he shows his "worse" parts (like how he becomes more arrogant or evil post ascension), he's suddenly not Astarion anymore. So much for unconditional love. They can argue all day about how spawn Astarion can be good and that's the real Astarion, but at the end of the day, even spawn Astarion has had the capability to do evil (approving heinous deeds). It's their choice to put on rose-tinted glasses and pretend those things were never a part of him, I'm not gonna tell them they're wrong for it like they constantly tell ascended fans we're wrong. (In case it wasn't obvious, I was being wholly sarcastic because I know there are spawn fans who aren't toxic and have valid reasons to choose unascended route which isn't because they can't love Astarion at his worst or deliberately only sees the good parts in him. I like both routes myself, just playing the devil's advocate.)
In my humble opinion, ascended Astarion is a better ending than unascended one. I cannot see him being scorched by the sun. And it's not like his ascension would lead to some unavoidable deaths or bad outcomes (aside from spawns, which were already doomed anyway).
I think he thinks he still loves Tav. He might feel a fondness and possessiveness for tav as an ascendant but it’s not the same feeling as the love he felt before. He remembers that he loved them, and might label his current feelings as love, but deep down even he knows he doesn’t anymore. He loses much more as an ascendant than he gains.
I'm not pro ascendant, but I will say that I think what you witness during his Ascendant route are his last bits of humanity/autonomy disappearing. He's still transitioning into whatever new monster he has become, so a very small part of him is still there but is dying. I think that what little love he had for you pre-ascendance is why you still get to witness the awkward childish reactions that would otherwise become very unbecoming of a vampire. Like when he tells you he was going to try with you, he means it as much as a creature like him can be genuine about anything. When you say you liked him as he was and he genuinely seems confused by that comment, it's what's left of the old him and his insecurities. How viscerally he reacts when you say Cazador even though he's "free" from his past. So sure there might be the tiniest spark still there, but it's going to disappear as his powers manifest. And honestly I only think they gave us even that much to justify why he's nerfed of all the powers he should have. But honestly go ahead with your domtop fantasies girlie's, I get it.
Casual reminder for the spawn supporters: Most Ascended fans don't care about the dissertations. (Edit: I'm a switch fan or love both Ascended and Spawn for different reasons, but the essays are getting old AND annoying. Three months post-release and y'all still shaming people on what they like and how they enjoy tgeir fantasy in a fiction world with a fictional man...) Additionally, he doesn't love in a healthy way, but he does "love" in the vampire way. Because, when you become a true vampire everything becomes twisted and darker. Meaning love turns to possessiveness and obsession. Fear heightens so he is 10(0)x more controlling. Drunk on power? Sure. Now, red flags aside, if you look into the sourcebooks, you'll note that Ascended Astarion didn't do the true spawn transformation but the bride/groom version which is love in a vampire sense. Nonetheless, I wonder if spawn fans ever get tired of writing essays. Besides, Astarion is more of Strahd 2.0 in the making than Cazador 2.0. Let's be real here.
Yup. If something happens, and ast cant revive you, he will just go full on strand and fk every living thing that looks like you. 😂😂 youre a freckled blonde and short? Every short blondie with freckles will be fked in your name 😂😂😂
@@covertgoblinLike, I see the red flags. But, Spawn Astarion is not dark fantasy material. I love me some dark fantasy vampire drama. When I need healthy relationships and growth, I'm obviously not binging Ascended Astarion content
AA is heavily traumatized but the Spawn version should be too, the problem is trying to pass spawn as healthy the day after cazador's demise, not ascending solved all my trauma thanks, I'm happy now. Both versions would need years to start resolving this feelings. When they give players those two finales = spawn is pretty much doomed forever but happy somehow x ascended is masking his feelings, possessive, suddenly into bdsm? and corrupted by power, it's an unfair comparison
He is literally written to be a failure of breaking the cycle of violence with Cazador. If you just like Ascended Astarion sure, but you're a thing he keeps, not an equal, the idea he sees you as an equal is delulu 😂
@@KP-wj9ch he loves them, this is a vampire love and cannot be equated with 21 century human moral sensibility, its like forcing dracula to act like a goodie two shoes modern man
"One drop of my blood" soooo Tav is just a regular vampire then? so why is he calling her a spawn? Oooh fine, I'll bloody do a Redeemed Dark Urge Astarion Romance Run
You know what, i wrote this "little" essay and decided to leave in some treads on Asc Astarion, because I got triggered and annoyed by this drama enough to feel like i need to share some thoughts about toxic vampire love thing in name of education for everyone. If you like it, feel free to repost it anywhere you want. So, what this dark romance fantasy is about for me personally,(even though i prefer spawn romance, i absolutely understand the appeal of asc Astarion because honestly, i was all about this kind of romance during my childhood and teenage years, hardocore the Phantom of the Opera girl is here, inside your head 💀), and why it's also healing route for some players,and no, it's not about kinky vampiric banging. 1)A lot of people feel extremely worthless and insecure, lonely, like no one really cares for them at all. It's a very deep wound that hurts and it's difficult to overcome even in perfectly loving, healthy and supportive relationship with a good partner,and even with therapy. So fantasy about a vampire, being obsessed with you so much that he is ready to do absolutely anything just to be with you for forever is really comforting. Also, you don't have to think too much about your imperfections, because for him you like a center of his vampire heart. Besides, you sympathise with him - it's like a selfcomfort mirror, i love this monster despite everything, so in a way, i accept myself despite any flaws i see in me. 2) Safety. When the world around you feel like a wilderness, full of monsters, it feels like only the most terrifying loving monster can protect you from it. He is powerful and protective, and i am so precious to him, that he will set the world on fire just so i would be safe. 3) Responsibility. As you may see, this kind of relationship have daddy issues vibes and codependency, and in real life, you can't just fully submit safely to anyone, I don't think i have to explain why it's a dangerous idea to seek this kind of relationships in real life. You have to stay a grown up independent person and seek safety for yourself without expecting someone to come and heal all your wounds. But this is fantasy, so finally you can use this as a comfort fantasy with no fear about being taking advantage of, without shame to be called childish and etc. 4) Independence. Spawn ending is very terrifying for anyone who has issues with feeling safe and independent, because some of us prefer violent power fantasies over "we have each other and that's all that matters", second of all, this ending also has some shady co-dependency undertone to it that can be triggering for some people. I love Spawn Astarion a little bit more more than Asc and yet my heart stayed absolutely broken after running away from the sun scene, and i hate that he is so dependent on Tav. Larian owes me some emotional refund after this. 5)SA trauma: it wasn't even seen as a possibility for healing way by writer, but it is for some.Asc Astarion feels like he is the most powerful creature in the world,and he is fully controlling everything that happens between him and Tav,so finally, it's a kind of situation where there is no chance of him being abused again. It's one of the reasons why some people become Doms in BDSM dynamic relationships: finally, full control of the process and a partner, who trusts then enough to fully submit, trust issues is also big deal in Astarion story of healing. I find idea that that only Subs can enjoy Asc Astarion a little bit naive. Because,well, some news for you: Doms like it too because they understand why he is so eager to be a top :D Unrealistic, not the healthiest way? Probably! But this man and this love is not real anyway. Yes, i think many of us, especially folks who went through therapy and a lot of self reflecting are already aware that it's basically romanticized version of narcissistic obsession and in real life this is creepy, but it's not real, it's a fantasy. People use BDSM to heal, romance books and all other forms of art to deal with their inner demons and it's absolutely normal. Even if someone is blind to see what is wrong with Asc Astarion, I highly doubt that toxic bucket of shame and aggression are able to help see anyone problematic side of things. Do you know who is usually up to romanticize toxic dynamic in romance? Victims of abuse. In real life, if you just scream and yell at any poor girl/boy/whatever about how stupid they are for believing that their abusive partner really loves them, people will either break down and cry or tell you to f#ck off and they will have every right to do so, but they won't see what's wrong with their partner,in whom quite often victims of abuse see their only source of love and safety in life. Hells, I am so sick and tired from this "white cloak knight saviour from cycle of abuse" toxic flood in this fandom. If you really want to educate people - do it with extreme care and compassion. Real life healing is not working like it's with Astarion in the game,few right dialogs and boom, dude is on the right path. It takes enormous amount of patience and love, be kind to one another, and stay safe, darlings. Being toxic on Asc fans you are not helping anyone, you just hitting your superiority complex button in your @ss. /Sorry for the wall of text, sorry for grammar, English is not my first language/
I’m not a victim of abuse but I wholeheartedly agree with everything in this post. I wish I could give more thumbs up and that people would be kinder to each other because the toxicity from spawn fans is f’cking exhausting.
@@another_one_0Lmao, you're literally no different from a rabid Spawn Astarion fan. You're just on the other side. Honestly, chill out and let people have their opinion.
@@unfortunatecircumstances8870 the differences is that it is spawn fans who often belittled people first over their choice, so of course people reacted out of annoyance
If he really loved Tav, he wouldn't require them to become his spawn in order to be with him. But he breaks up with Tav if they refuse, which is pretty toxic.
I think his 'character progression' is kinda resetted and a slightly bigger hill, we climbed up and built trust and feelings for him and he even admitted he wanted you to fall for him for protection then he fell for you as well by accident because we are breaking through barriers with him and will just have to do again
not spawn astarion romancers attacking ascended astarion enjoyers in the replies like he's an actual person or something 💀 like... over a game character? really?
I understand what you imply. The thing is many see themselves in Astarion and many see themselves in their own characters. For many his story hits on a very personal level. People get invested because they got told a story they can relate to. Even uf Astarion is zeros and ones. He creates far more and stirs peoples emotions.
@@lisdraconis2212 It's completely fine to relate to a character, but at some point people gotta understand that they ARE NOT the character themselves, therefore whatever people do with the character is not a personal offense towards them. Too often people think they and the characters they love are one and the same that they'd attack real people for how other people treat the character as if what's being done was done to them personally. That's not how it works.
Yeah I keep thinking this, but they also dont explicitly say it, and it makes it seem like you are still just a spawn. Or maybe he just wants you to think that so you will "behave." I dont know. I have found it very confusing they kept it so vague.
There’s two takes to that. It can also mean that he’s sees himself as inferior to you and you’re degrading your own position to be with him. By my MC choosing to turn and be with him, I’m telling him he’s worth it.
Mmmmmmmm. Look I love Astarion as much as everyone else, but ascended Astarion just. Gives me bad vibes. Even when he's being "sweet" and "nice", it comes off as more of him fawning over an object, a possession, and not an equal and a partner. Maybe that's just my own past trauma being triggered, but I just can't get behind it.
He's lying, one drop isn't factually enough in lore. Its just enough so Tav can walk in the daylight. Ascended Astarion has possessive love for Tav not anything true, they're just an object of power to him. In cannon, he would still be able to control Tav.
Even if there is a chance he can’t force anything on Tav/Durge, his ability to love was replaced with obsession. So there is deffinately a feeling but I don’t think it’s positive one 😂 I prefer my Tav to have one long life as a normal drow with him and then hope he will find happiness with someone (there’s always „find a cure for vampirism” path, you’ll never know what might come to their heads) than be a „pet” for a guy that already treats her like a posession. Buddies? Totally. Lovers? Nope.
For me, i prefer ascended astarion cuz it just feels like what a vampire romance should be - its never meant to be anything "healthy". They are dark creatures that are evil aligned after all😅 so it seems a bit unfair to compare this to real irl relationships like some have done in the fandom. Cuz lets be real, almost all the companions are more or less walking red flags lol Maybe im overthinking this...but if he remains a spawn, tav even if elven races live substantially longer, will age and die eventually. And who gets to witness it and cope with that alone, no longer having the power to change that? Astarion. He may be free and himself...but i doubt cazador is the only vampire lord out there. If others found out what astarion did, they would see him as a threat - vampires being the paranoid creatures he claim they are. So while hes free, i dont think he will exactly be safe for very long. And Tav would be dragged into it as well. A sweet headcanon post-game would be maybe them finding Elminster and asking him to cast Wish and return Astarion to his mortal self? Maybe they can live a normal life? I think that'd be a sweet prospect. Ascended tho? Whether its vampiric corruption or simply because he has the pompous attitude of someone with power (that level of pomp isnt all that uncommon for characters in similar situations), he has an eternal companion, still have insecurities (maybe hes afraid that outwards displays of that would make him look weak and an easy target?), the power and resources to be truly free and strong enough to deal with those that may wish to threaten or harm them. (Other vampire lords etc) Which is why I honestly dont see why or how its a bad thing?
Okay so I will say first and foremost because this is the most important bit for me - your take is valid IMO and you should 100% play the game you want to play. I have a different take, but I'm sharing it because it's a public space and I find different opinions interesting and assume you do as well otherwise you'd be playing your own game instead of engaging in the comment's section on someone else's video. My stance is that it comes down to which one you pick. The spawn romance isn't a "vampire" romance because spawnstar isn't a "vampire" he's a person. Ascended, he loses that personhood. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is the personal choice part, but pre-ascension he literally tells you he wants to be seen as a person and if you conclude act 3 and he remains spawn he relishes the chance to have a relationship with "a partner, an equal."
@bearhugzfam649 fam your stance is equally valid. Imma be real, i havent gotten past act 2 on any playthrus...and with all the recent bugs with the game and broken astarion kisses, likely wont for awhile. Yes hi i spoiled this for myself 😂😂😅 But what I do expect is playing this game many many times to see all the many endings not to mention origin stories on top of that. I will most certainly have a good durge x spawnstarion one because i think it makes sense. And its, at least in my head, wholesome af and both of them end up being super relatable to each other. And who knows, my stance might change when i actually get to it playing and not spoiling it for myself on youtube lol. Based on all the anne rice vampire novels that im addicted to tho, im definitely currently leaning towards ascended as my "true headcanon" so to speak. Esp if its his origin story. Again...i havent gone past act 2 so hey, maybe my stance will change when i get to it myself when they address some current issues and bugs in the game. Really out of the fact at how vampires in true dnd lore would behave. They are inherently evil aligned creatures after all😅 That and i suppose im also thinking aboit the whole "doing something i want in the moment" vs "doing something i might not want atm but is a great long term investment" lol yeah definitely overthinking 😂😂😂 But i will say...the origin ending without tav for spawnstarion? That broke my heart. (Hahaha laughs in spoiling it for myself some more) he was free sure...but it just feels like hes almost back to where he started. To me that little hugging himself and rocking back and forth thing behind those crates broke my heart 😢
@@TomoMomoDomo nah you're not overthinking it, the team REALLY put a lot into Astarion, a lot of subtly and nuance, he's 100% the character you can "overthink" completely validly lol. Enjoy your zealous dissections! I do
i'm positive that someone confirmed that the dev notes state that he's lying about giving tav his blood, he even refers to you as his spawn in the very next sentence, not as a true vampire. so, if that's the case, not sure how him lying & actually just making you into his spawn/slave with no free will & no ability to ever disobey him in any way whatsoever for the rest of eternity proves anything good about his feelings for you AT ALL, but ok?
Almost. He is lying about turning Tav into a true vampire. It's a devnote in the script about the romance epilogs. Player: "And you promise you'll make me a full vampire soon?" He says: "My darling, of course! I want nothing more." Devnote says: Overly sincere. He doesn't really mean it.
@@Louves192 even WITHOUT the devnotes, there's a few things that people who defend this ending always seem to overlook: 1-tav conveniently can't remember what happened after the bite, & we NEVER see astarion giving tav his blood, which could have EASILY been included in the scene. all they have to go on is what astarion SAYS happened (& of course the fact that they have absolutely no new abilities afterwards, beyond the vamp bite that spawn astarion always had) 2-& this one is glaringly important, before the bite, astarion literally SAYS "i will kill your mind".. he COULD have said, 'i will kill your body' or just 'i will kill you', he specifically says 'i will kill your MIND'.. he's blatantly telling them that he's about to erase all sense of self the player ever had, & completely strip away the player's free will... just like cazador did to him.... but all the people calling on 2e lore about brides or whatnot & applying it to 5e, always seem to forget this little bit that is dialogue in the ACTUAL game which could have easily replaced 'mind' with 'body' but didn't, or could have showed astarion giving the player his blood, but didn't....& i think those are very deliberate & telling choices on the part of the writers
at the end of the game you're literally standing right there under the sun and nothing happens to you. if you were a regular spawn youd be turning to ashes just like spawn astarion. i dont get why this is being discussed. i dont understand whats the point of nitpicking everything to prove your bias with arguments based on pure speculation. no ones asking to be convinced by you, and you are not convincing anyone but the people who already agree with you, so whats the point of this really?
It's really funny that not a single Asc Astarion fan is claiming that it's a healthy kind of love and absolutely ok with admitting it's basically a vampiric obsession, but every spawn fan is still here to save us all from "omg abuse cycle, how dare you to like this ending and be happy with it" Dark medivial fantasy, you know, and a fitting dark romance ending for those who into this, jeez, and girlies created so much toxic drama from that,i guess spawn fans possessive of a character not less than a vampire lord is in Asc ending, huh?😅 Thanks for the video
its funny how they dont realize having an "i can fix him" outcome is also unhealthy af and continue babying him. its sad that you cant really have a happy ending with him though... but its even sadder that some people dont realize you can like both endings and move on with your life lol
@@covertgoblin yeah, one of the reasons I can't fully enjoy both endings is that in a way it's still a co-dependence and even though there are a lot of monologues from Astarion about freedom in both endings, it's still feels unachievable for character to be truly free. Yet I find Asc Astarion at least making sense in terms of a character and story setting👹
I don't think it's even an obsession, he just sees you as a pet. The moment you refuse to do what he says/things between you don't go like he wants to be he will disregard you like trash. See: ascended astarion ending with karlach origin
@@nvtrna and if you disagree with him about killing other party members in Asc ending as Tav, he will go along with that.Why, if you are his pet and he has no reason to take your opinion in consideration? Where is the truth? In my opinion, Karlach ending is weirdly written, i mean, why all the sudden he forgets about her being fire girl, it makes no sense. It feels like last minute script ideas. And most importantly, for every playthrough we have different versions of Astarion because we literally can't take in consideration all possible answers for all possible dialogues, it doesn't make sense for RPG game, yet for whatever reason we do analyse Astarion from this multiverse kind of perspective. So I would say that it's safe to say Asc Astarion is an absolute as$h0le in Karlach origin for sure(and he loses few braincells in asc process, lol).
This is your proof? Seriously? Look, just because someone "really loves you" doesn't mean they're not also abusing you. That is the lesson that was supposed to be learned here. If you challenge him and tell him you don't want to be his Spawn he shows his true colors and you'll see just how much of a monster he's become. Neil has outright said that Ascended Astarion is in no way shape or form a healthy relationship. Just because Astarion is nice now doesn't change the fact he's still the Master and Tav is his spawn-his slave.
This video is not a proof that it's a "healthy love", it's dark and twisted as it should be for the evil ending It only bothers me that good ending is presented as healthy one,when it's actually quiet questionable outcome with the same co-dependency undertone to it
Stop projecting, the video doesn't even say anything about it being a healthy love. It's literally just called "Proof Ascended Astarion really loves you" which you indirectly concurred with by saying "Just because someone 'really loves you' doesn't mean..." So you agree? So you agree that he could "really love" Tav and still be abusive? I don't see many ascended fans deny that his love is twisted and distorted, but it's there. We don't claim it to be a healthy kind of love, not even true love. Sure there are ascended fans who insist that angle, but they're in the minority. The majority of spawn fans however... Seems so hellbent on proving their moral superiority.
@@aibhe i see ascendant romance as true love albeit darker, a more serious version of morticia and gomez with even more blood involved, i'm tired of uwu misunderstood vampire
It’s so funny to me that when he turns you into a spawn he’s like “in the future I’ll let you drink my blood but we need to ease you into it before you’re a true vampire.” But then bro can’t go two seconds before giving you his blood and telling you that you’ll drink from each other often. The game still treats you like a spawn but it’s actually not specified how much blood is needed to go from spawn to true vampire… so I think it’s funny to imagine him saying all that but then ending up not even waiting to fully turn you 😭. Also it proves the people who say he’s lying and won’t ever let you out from his control or have his blood wrong. (Both endings are great for their own reasons to me and the infighting and trying to prove one ending is so much worse is so silly just let people enjoy things)
nah bruh yall let a traumatized person feed into his insecurities and forced him to continue the centuries long cycle of abuse he's been caught in. every other character has a pretty clear "good" and "bad" ending for them, so I don't know why some Astarion fans have deluded themselves into thinking he's the only character where both endings are equally as good, ESPECIALLY if you compare his dialog between asended and not ascended. Like cool, if you want to pursue an evil playthrough and enjoy fucking up a traumatized person for the sake of a good story, all the power to you. But let's not pretend they're both "equally good". Equally well written? Yes. Equally interesting? Sure? But equally GOOD? LMAO You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You don't get to fuck up a traumatized person for the sake of your sexy vamp smut and then also get the same level of intimacy or genuine love from a playthrough where your character actually cares for him and not the power or sex appeal he has. That's why he can't even bring himself to look you in the eyes during the ascended sex scene, but yall STILL wanna delude yourselves and believe that this traumatized person that you prioritized power over healing for, who CANONICALLY cannot feel love for you any more once he's gone full vampire, is just as happy, healthy, and in love as he would be in a non ascended run.
@@keppakappa5033idk where this “vampire smut” comment came from but a lot of people who chose the ascended ending don’t even romance him or simply think it fits better narratively with their playthrough or are asexual irl or are even abuse survivors themselves and I think it’s in pretty bad faith to lump everyone into that category. Also I said that both endings were great as in the writing not that they were both good morally. But also as someone who has romanced him through both endings, he does look you in the eyes during both sex scenes so I’m unsure where you got that from..
agree, the thing that made me want to try a vampire lord route was seeing how miserable his spawn ending really is if you substract tav from the ecuation i couldnt let him keep physically suffering and feeling pathetic, the "vampire smut" i really couldnt care less tbh i just gave in to his whims. also he will be bitter if you dont ascend him as you can see in the epilogue if you break up with him and he will hold that grudge for a while so its ridiculous to go shaming people for choosing a different ending imo
@@keppakappa5033it's not that a big deal, Cazador is dead and that is all what matters plus Astarion get all the power, don't assume how people see abuse survivor or dealing with their abuse over a damn vampire Twink from bg3 that's unhinged
Exactly!! You do drink his blood even if it was one drop. Plus my Durge will just bite him randomly just show him who really is in charge around here 😂
He definitely still loves you, ascended astarion still has a heart, at least at this point. However the power is corrupting him fast and his love for you is already twisted by obsession and a need to control. He feels he has to exert some control over you or you're going to see him for the monster he is and leave him
Tbh I never saw these scenes as true love like yes he’s nice and he cares for you you can tell but it just felt wrong like he thought he was better then me
I am in constant pain being in this fanbase because not only am I an Ascended Astarion fan but a Cazador fan. :,) I don't want to kill my evil meow meow
I've promised myself to send this comment if I see the point "circle of abuse" again. The theme of the abuse circle is only in the crowd. Author Stephen Rooney did not dictate his character's theme and how it should be understood. But there's something that he said: "Newbon and Larian Studios writer Stephen Rooney didn't want Astarion to be interpreted as simply the 'traumatized' character, Newbon said. They wanted him to be as complex and layered as a real person. Trauma was simply one part of his story, yet it informed many of his behaviors" People's desires and motivation do not end or begin at their trauma. Why should Astarion only have a circle? He may have a line of his desires and ambitions bigger than his trauma. Maybe an evil ending, evil because Astarion is too Astarion for that kind of power is just dangerous. For everyone except Astarion and Tav, who accepts his evil disordered mess, which always has been. And goodness is altruistic. Also, based on this. The evil ending shows his darkness in blood. But it's not a bad cartoon where everything is black and white. That's why people like the theory about the bride, because that's where we learn about the concept of vampires in DnD and their weird feelings. Van Richten's Guide to Vampires - Relations between Vampires Neil did such a great job voicing the Ascended Astarion, like, it's gorgeous. Now some people don't understand the thing - it’s ok, but pushes-hate-mocking-judge - it’s not ok. It's a wonderfully deep, delicate work illustrating the power dynamics from a vampiric Dark Lord. Deeper than sexual fantasy, because Astarion himself is deeper. There's an incredible amount of care and so many feelings for a genre that is apparently not for everyone at all. "He has no feelings" - Neil showed dark feelings Ascended with genius power. And the fact that someone is so afraid of it (and that's ok) proves even better what a brilliant thing it is. Dark Fantasy - people don't go there for health. They go there for something wild, complex and fresh. Imagine you're sitting by the fire, getting high, and someone opens the door with their foot, rushes into the room and starts judging you. "Not-healthy-true-love", you mean, dude, you've got the wrong door. I just finished carving the grove and Astarion enjoyed it. The fairytale door is to the left. Morality lecture hall to the right. The church and talking about souls are on the other block. Out the back, the grass, is green, or a tree, touch it. I guess I finally realized the reason why I get hit by the words of aggressive- pushing (important clarification)-spawn-fans. Some is not just don't see it, stomped into the dirt. And not philosophical dirt, even. These spawn fans have made me so edgy and hardcore stans of Ascension that Astarion dances a twist in my game. Well decadence and all that has been criticized by moralists since the beginning of decadence. Things don't change. I'm already coming to the road of humility. I just hope Larian doesn't abandon their weirdo-kiddo.
What also people are missing is that Astarion in evil playthrough is basically whole different person, it makes no sense to compare his development with good/bad playthrough When you go full evil,all this thing about cycle of abuse is somewhere in the background and hits differently It's the thing with RPG, characters rather exist in different universes, you are not supposed to analyse him from all options at once But i guess some people are just too entitled to their perception of reality to comprehend that our collective experience of this story can be so different from one another
@@another_one_0 The thing is, in my good run through, I saw that man was such a mess. I saw that line, too. Well I have no problem with the path of goodness. My Tav is often good. Astarion goes to camp sometimes. I don't think Astarion needs to be fixed or any ending ruins him. I just look at Ascension as an extension of his own dark desires and qualities and: okay. (I'll probably delete this comment at some point because I'm a shy)
@@alexandradel9712 hm, well, yeah, but i mean, if you go full good, helping him with the ritual kinda feels like ruining both Tav and him, becoming villains together or going into full angst,i guess? i am not implying that he becomes something completely different after the ritual, for me it feels like he becomes extreme version of himself in act 1, but it's only my view on this It's so annoying that we have this toxic flood inside the fanbase because i really love both sides of story yet i feel like i can't criticise spawn ending because of quite rose tinted glasses take on this ending from spawn fans,but also i can't enjoy my vampire lord content without coming across this never ending bullying I started participating in this debates now with toxic spawn fanbase out of principle, you know: you don't want me to be comfortable and enjoy my content, than you shall not be comfortable here too👹
@@another_one_0 In my case, my Tav is chaotic neutral but good leaning I suppose. For the most part, she's neutral but she tries to help when she can as long as it doesn't harm her and her friends/companions. And I chose to ascend Astarion on that playthrough because my Tav is quite naive when it comes to love and she loves hard that she would literally do anything to see him happy, would give him everything he wants. That's why she didn't force him to sleep with her in act 2, and ever since she sort of vowed to respect his choices and decisions. So both these feelings, intense love and her vow to respect his decision eventually culminate in letting him ascend, not knowing that this new power, as much as it's what he wanted, would twist him from the inside. It's a tragedy and they're doomed together and she knows it, albeit too late. Still, she loves him, and there's no way she would abandon him or turn her back against him. She vowed to stand by him and respect his decisions, so as long as he didn't cast her aside, she's willing to do anything. He jumps, she jumps. That's why she stayed and let him turn her into a vampire as this is the only way she could really stay beside him forever instead of dying of old age and leaving him. It's tragic because not only her love ends up corrupting him, his desire to gain power to protect both him and her ends up corrupting her as well. They both pursued power for each other's sake only to end up losing themselves in the process. My Tav, once willing to help others, now only does so if it benefits her cause (defeating the brain). She's not as corrupted as he is though, and sometimes acts like his anchor (I can just imagine her persuading Astarion from time to time so that he won't end up as bad as Cazador, and he'd comply because hey his happiness is linked to his vampire bride). I like the epilogue where it's implied that all they do for the most part is throw parties and travel all over Faerûn, occasionally committing evil here and there.
@@another_one_0 Well, about ruining Tav and him - no, I never understood it that way. Tav may be good, but my Tav is strange. We're just having fun and will be traveling - Astarion allows it, which is good. That's what the epilogues that weren't finished will be like. That vampire book is what makes it so good, it tells you how things can be. It's a very chaotic and dangerous journey of vampire love. My thing. People really don't want to see that path in Lorde from the game - but why not? There are a lot of things that show it - that's where the fire starts, everyone wants to prove aggressively "it's not love and you're a dellulu and dare not say anything but fanfic&headcanon". Because they decided canon is "it's not love". (he's imaginary, he doesn't love) They were writing a romance. Astarion loves - love-vampire-style, I mean. But somebody's got the wrong door, I guess. The fandom is just... Larian have started a new SteLena-DeLena, Edward-Jacob, peace won't come. Or only in time maybe.
I am here to agree with you 😊 great video! There are some very good comments analysing why ascendant Astarion still loves OC, even if it is twited vampiric love.
Пересмотрев несколько видео с попытками "отбелить" вознесённого Астариона, показать, что я могу ошибаться, я поняла, что чаша моих весов немного пошатнулась. Но моё мнение не изменилось. Что-то внутри шепчет, что я права, что вознесённый Астарион совсем потерял себя (которого начал открывать), что теперь он стал 100% актёром, он теперь чистый манипулятор. Искренне ли он любит ГГ? Не уверена. Он поддался страху и ужасу, став тем, кого убил. Специально оставляла его вознесение на десерт перед финальной битвой, чтобы посмотреть что будет дальше. Моя ГГ осталась с отродьем-Астарионом, чтобы вместе найти способ выйти ему на солнце. Да, грустно, но зато это был тот, в кого я верю. К счастью и сожалению Ларианы не вставили в игру волшебные пилюли, решающие проблемы.
He doesn't if you breakup before refusing to be turned and wait a day and talk to him again and say he doesn't know what love is anymore or something like that he explains how he sees love, its very very twisted and he says he would've just used you until he was satisfied and he respects you for saying no and that was your best option 😂, not just he becomes a full vampire that in dnd are all evil he is an full vampire after q demonic transformation 😂 he doesn't have any good left in him you would just be a puppet he becomes way worse than cazador
I need helpppp.Should I ascend him?or should I stop him from doing that? Because: If I ascend him,I heard that his personality changes and he will get arrogant But if I interrupt him,he hates me after wards an leaves my party Is it possible if I interrupt his ascending,that he won't hate me afterwards etc. Or is it not possible? (What is the better choice?)
you can stop him by persuading him right off the bat, if you choose to persuade him he wont leave the party :) or you can let him ascend if you want, but his personality does change so if it's your first time playing then probably stop him
@@covertgoblinbut if you persuade him,isn't it like manipulating?:00 (and can I still romance him? Sorry for asking but I have the same problem as the other person!xD)
@@amanekinmemes6243its more like deciding if you want to validate his fears of being powerless by granting him power/status or if you want to aid him and convince him he doesnt need it and hes fine the way he is
I've been so worried about asending him, I mean I tried it and as soon as he said Tav was waiting for his command that was it I went stright back to him being my sweet baby.
@@seliamila1005 the game doesn’t have to spell it out for you lol. Full vampires don’t have souls in bg3 you get that information through notes. And without a soul you can’t love. It becomes something twisted.
@@Xxsorafan he may not turn you into a ‘true’ vampire but he does make you his bride / groom 🙂 Also, Astarion kind of flies in the face of the lore because he’s not a true vampire himself anymore; he’s an ascended version. Who knows what he’s capable of (including the ability to feel some sort of love, even if it’s a little chaotic).
Can someone explain how this actually work? To ascend from a spawn to a vampire, the spawn needs to be granted its sire's blood. Astarion turned Tav, and then gave them his blood. That must mean Tav is not a spawn anymore, but everyone acts as if they are. Also how could've Casador's spawns eat rats if Casador forbid them from feeding on thinking creatures and as far as we know due to Speak with animals, all mammals in DnD are thinking creatures.
According to dnd lore, the specific way Astarion turns Tav, is how a vampire bride(/husband/spouse) is created. They get more perks than spawn, but they are still under their creators control. The ritual consists of draining the person's blood to the point of death then, right before they die, the vampire gives them a taste of their blood. (careful not to give to much, because it would throw the bride into a fit of insanity.) After that they fall into a coma and wake up a vampire bride. A regular spawn is just bitten. To become a vampire, they are not drain of their own blood and drink a specific amount of a vampires blood.
@@covertgoblinye im confused too. Cause a lot of ppl also say that spawns are controlled not brides, that brides are somewhat equal in every way to the vampire that created them. They share the same power and lifespan as their husbands. Some say Brides have their own autonomy and maintain their human functions but need blood too. Im so confused rn, the lore is all over the place. I wish we get a dlc to expand on everything and that larian clears up things for us.
It’s harder because Astarion is an Ascended living Vampire, so that’s different. And he turned her using the powerful Bride process, not the Spawn process. Giving her power, protection and keeping her as much like her mortal self as he could. Plus he says he’s going to be sharing future powers and abilities… the Ascended couple should be something very unique…
![[SPOILER] New Astarion's Evil Ending. Patch 7. Baldur's Gate 3](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/u51-BHFs_Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
the title and caption are clearly ironic chill lmao
Says the one fanning on all the arguments lmao
@@unfortunatecircumstances8870i will hate like him all i want 😔
@@covertgoblin I think you just like seeing people argue in your comments. Very Astarion of you.
@@unfortunatecircumstances8870ok you got me there
Where in the title does it indicate irony?
Astarion and Tav went through two very different processes of becoming a spawn - for him it was extremely painful and he had to dig his way out of his grave, for the player it's painless and they just wake up with new abilities. In some DnD books this second process (accompanied with giving a little blood) is described as creating a vampire bride. It's unclear how canon that is in BG3 I think it's still save to say Tav is not a regular spawn
Yes are we not reading the part where he straight out says "drink their blood and you will be free and a true vampire"? which is basically what happens so youre not technically his spawn, he makes you a true vampire AND passes on some of his new powers to you so you can be in the sun and all that or am i the one not understanding things lol like all "he loves me or not" drama aside lmao
edit: theres a lot of very interesting lore based insights in these answers thank you 👍
There is a youtube short on Vampire Marriage called 'do you guys heard about vampire marriage?" by nyloth It's very clear that it is the ritual Astarion did with you.
@@covertgoblinyes I was think the same. Is she a full on vampire or not 😅. Bc I think he refers to her as a spawn in some dialogue after . So it’s confusing
There's a theory that says he's trying to trick you into thinking you're his spawn and that he can compel you. But he never actually does nor does he give a straight answer as to whether he can or not (even after the tadpole is removed). Instead he says things like 'you are mine' and 'why would I have to'. Apparently according to the bride/groom lore it's common for the vampire 'master' to want to trick their consort into thinking they can compel them (though I'm not sure what the original source is here). It's also important to note that a consort is still inferior to the one that turned them, but not a slave like a spawn either.
@@shibernyan2009 early on you have the tadpole that prevented Cazador from ordering Astarion, so I think he can't compel you until the end of the game, which is why you cannot break up with Ascended in the end scene when you are free of the tadpole.
You also only get the basic bite attack, which is what spawn Astarion had, so in my opinion Tav is some type of a spawn. He assures you that he will turn you completely eventually once you are accustomed to your new self. I tend to think the last one is more the devs not wanting to give the player the same power up.
Astarion: "you already perfect, it's hard to improve"
Me: "take notes to seduce women"
Well I hope it works out for you
if you dont back it up with actions Im afraid it will not make anyone stay for too long.
Not every woman like those kind of cheesy lines. At least i dont 😂
I suggest sending them Arabic love poems. That will work better.
That line only worked because he was literally changing us into something else 😂
I played as a Durge who is just as obsessed with Astarion as he is with her. She craves power but rejected Bhaal only because she knew he would make her kill Astarion eventually. So she ascends Astarion to create their own evil legacy together.
This is such a good storyline???
actually, if you accept bhaal, the butler tells you later that absolutely your love will be spared, after all, you need to sire more bhaalspawn
@@marshroverv5632Hm, I recall there's also a line somewhere (forgot where) which tells you that if the Dark Urge "you" fully succeed as a bhaal spawn aka. murder everyone, "your" own turn would come in the end, meaning "your" mate would have to die no later than right beforehand. In Gortash'es dialogue, your Urge says that first you rule, then ruin, but that's a much softer clue than the line I'm recallng.
@@VixenDraDurge themselves say this in a letter to Bhaal that you can find in the mind flayer colony
@@VixenDra you 100% get to save your love. I was a male Durge and they gave me the "you need more bhaalspawn" line about keeping Astarion alive and then hesitated and was like "well okay we'll have to find you someone else to procreate with but, still, he'll be fine."
Also if you read DnD bestiaries on vampires like monsters of the multiverse, vampires actually lose the ability to "love" and it's replaced with obsession instead -and more in a vanity/perfection-in-youth sense (the core books specifically used children as an example of an object of obsession...). So all things considered, ascended Astarion's way of showing love is actually not that bad. It's not that good either, but for a vampire it's pretty stellar lmao
I would think that would be one of the limitations removed by the rite (doesn't it restore a vampires soul or something?) but I can't say 💯 and Larian seems content to make us guess 😅
I'm pretty sure this particular quality can't translate over from normal DnD since the Ascension ritual is a BG3 thing. Raphael described it as having all of the qualities of being alive, and the benefits of being a vampire (just stronger). So I doubt Astarion loses his humanity or soul when he ascends. He's likely behaving this way because he's overwhelmed with power, while also being insecure about himself.
this obsession thing is applied to SPAWN as well, i dont think people should use this lore as a proof or whatever
Does that apply to spawn too?
@@TechnicalTylerNo, since spawn still have their souls. Full vampires don't.
Ascended is so fascinating, in a bit of a train wreck kind of way because, really, at what point is he lying to the PC, at what point is he lying to himself, or just masking?
I've seen some comments on these videos state that what he describes is not the process for making a regular spawn, but a vampire bride/groom, which creates a very different creature to a spawn. To summarise what I've seen other commenters share: The method is different (instead of just draining, there's three bites, draining, and a drop of blood before the bride/groom dies, so they change before death, not after, going from alive to undead, not alive to dead to undead), and the end result is still very much the same person as when they were alive (unchanged, as he said), shares in the power of the vampire that created them (which since the PC doesn't burn up at the end as spawn-Astarion does, is actually happening), and while bound to the vampire is not fully controlled by them (though they can mutually agree to divorce to break that bond - not likely to happen even if the relationship goes bad given vampire possessiveness and obsession). The biggest down side is the bride/groom, still being of the same mind as when they were alive, doesn't have vampire instincts, no hunger or innate understanding of their needs, so the vampire needs to teach them, which if the vamp messes that up can cause their bride/groom to go mad.
So, Ascended Astarion doesn't spell it out (despite calling the PC his consort, which is easily dismissed as flowery flattery), likely due to fear and insecurity and a big ol' dose of Vampiric corruption and twisting of emotions, but in vamp terms he really does flat out marry the PC, right there, before the final fight, the PC really does become his consort, his vampiric spouse. He does care, does love in an extremely possessive, twisted kind of way, that can and does turn flat out abusive if the PC gets buyers regret for the dark situation they've landed themselves in, but it is a kind of love, vampire style.
There is a youtube short on Vampire Marriage called 'do you guys heard about vampire marriage?" by nyloth It's very clear that it is the ritual Astarion did with you. I feel that he doesn't spell this out because, sadly, he still seems too insecure about Tav leaving him. I wish Larian would've made the fact more obvious...that it was a vampire marriage ritual because it would've made that ending more impactful.
wish id had the foresight to research this sorta thing before starting my shitty fanfic. lmao. this is crazy valuable info. thanks
@@kewpified I saw her, she’s cool and well argued)
and i was there thinking what would happend if you let him bite you, turn you and then u bite him again... but yeah.., what u say makes sense cause Tav does not end in a grave at the end of the scene nor even at the end of the game.
@@kewpified they should have totally made it a whole cutscene. That would have been incredible.
It’s mad how different ascended Astarion acts depending on what dialog options you choose. I’ve seen him be sweet and loving still to straight up evil. This version is a lot more complex than the spawn version and makes me want to try and do a “healthy” vs toxic ascended Astarion to see the differences in its full extent.
it seems to me that you have to be very accepting and more gentle with him immediately after ascending. if you judge him (and what right would tav have to judge considering they HELP him ascend) that’s when his abusive behavior comes out. idk if it is would be like that for eternity, but frankly it’s no surprise to me that he’s not in a stable mental condition after doing what he did
@@cupkneetbf, he’s not really in a stable mindset whether you ascend him or not. I think that it’s downright abusive on MC’s part to help him ascend and then abandon him (if romanced), that’s toxic AF.
Never go for ascension unless you’re 100% committed. I knew what I was getting the minute the ritual was all laid out. I imagined some Dracula / Lestat hybrid and that’s exactly what I got and I love it.
But it’s not for everyone! To me, it seems like the next generation have been swaddled in too much twilight fix-him drama 😅
Edit: spelling
@@cupkneeI ultimately made him a spawn in my romance playthrough but that was after a reload when at first I failed the persuasion check to get him not to do the ritual. He starts talking to you in a very possessive, but still kinda genuinely romantic? way, but my character hated his condescending possessive tone and broke up with him about it. He took the breakup more gracefully than I expected, and it made a really interesting little story where, from his POV, my character was basically just salty about him finally being free and empowered and therefore less vulnerable/easy to manipulate. Ofc I reloaded after that but I feel like in that timeline, they would become bitter exes who both felt betrayed by the other, both for understandable reasons.
@@cupknee oh yeah definitely no surprise he’s unstable at the moment! I’ve always looked at it more like it’s very accurate to how abusive, possessive and controlling relationships work. The abuser will be satisfied and happy if you agree with them always and never question them but as soon as you start to disagree things will go down hill very fast and true colours will show. Though I never thought of it being more he’s angry that Tav/Durge or Origin character judged him after. Like he says about Cazador they made him like this. It wouldn’t make sense to help him throughout the whole game to just turn on him and make him evil last minute then judge him for it so that also makes a lot of sense. I lean more towards my original theory now the 6 months later epilogue has been released but I know your comment was before that (for some reason I only get notified about replies to my replies not replies to my original comments, sorry about that) but it was nice to think about it from a different point of view and I’ll definitely look at it through a different lens now. Thank you.
@@NWard1210 completely agree on he’s not stable either route! Sometimes I even wonder as well does Spawn Astarion even love Tav/Durge or Origin character or is it just the first time someone has cared for him in so long he’s mistaking it for love because he doesn’t think it’s normal anymore and doesn’t want to loose it.
I wouldn’t say it’s abusive for someone to leave someone when they become abusive and possessive (unless we’re talking their character was also evil and planned this the whole time) BUT it’s wrong what the character does if they make Astarion Ascended then leave him and act surprised he behaves the way he does. It was very obvious as soon as Astarion meets his siblings he starts acting more like his Act 1 self again and going down a dark path. To help him all that way to then make him kill all those people and act like he’s the one in the wrong when they helped him do it is awful and definitely not innocent on their part.
I think comparing the relationship to Lestat and Louis is extremely accurate actually! I plan on doing something similar for my Tragedy playthrough.
I feel like ascended Astarion had some writer clash going on because this tone is different from his other lines. When you confront the brain it still calls spawn Astarion "the rat catcher that became a lord" (the line in the game script appears twice, so spawn was supposed to get a different one but it didn't get finished on time). Makes me wonder what they were cooking with the upper city but couldn't finish it.
Yeah, the confrontation with the elder brain has a false flag. Curious why it still is not fixed.
It searched for a line regarding durge in a normal Tav playthrough and since it can't find that line it defaults to the placeholder answer.
Spawn astarion also has fewer lines when talking to him, and sounds less romantic than before the quest ending. Meanwhile ascended has more than double after you become his consort
You could be right. He seems to be the product of way too many rewrites, where they took fleshed out stories and added a few choice lines/checks to ruin it, and then other paths where its entirely tragic and then added lines to give the tradgedy a positive spin.
Theres also serious clash between the game mechanics being displayed and the words he says, that are hard to explain away as 'astarion lies a lot' (controlling vs doing everything we tell him, even in the final cutscene after brain is dead)
Because of a voice line bug you wonder if the Upper city was supposed to be implemented. In act2 the yuan ti armor was bugged for females. Makes me wonder if an Avernus dlc was canceled at the last minute 😮
I've found a lot of inconsistencies like that in Act 3 for all companions and a whole bunch of quests and act 3 is just buggy as hell, I get the feeling they were just trying to rush it out. I'm curious to see how the patch it and what/if they expand in the future. So far so good, new and improved bugs aside they're trending in the right direction, but some content definitely needs adding/fixes for our boy. The approval/disapproval and casual lines/party banter with him post Cazador is a joke, he's basically the same person outside of the cutscenes even though he's a VASTLY different one in them.
i think people view ascended astarion’s route way too black and white. it’s not as simple as “astarion doesn’t love tav anymore”. his love has just become twisted and tainted and i love the tragedy of that. yes he’s controlling and a lot more possessive and it’s obviously not a healthy love but he still loves tav in the only way he knows how after what he’s become. i think a part of spawn astarion is still in there based on some moments where his vulnerability slips through but that part of him is locked very deep inside and the facade he wore in the beginning that was slowly becoming undone, has become nearly hard as steel to penetrate because he never truly got to heal and i find that far more compelling than “he’s pure evil now and incapable of love and feelings” but hey that’s just my interpretation
THIS! YES! THANK YOU! I completely agree and of the same mind, and I wish more people would see the nuance but here we are.
This is how I think too. Nicely told.
Well said.
man i love tragic love stories so even if it is a “bad” ending (and i hate people who say that because they act like it’s so black and white) i still like it as a story lol. and in my opinion, the point of these games is to tell a story. not to always pick the perfect ending.
It's because it's meant to be seen as such. The good vs bad ending. The Good ending that Larian, Stephen, and Neil prefer vs the Bad where the spawn becomes an objectified slice of personal fantasy for the player (being with a Vampire Lord that grants them eternal youth by his side) as they get manipulated and riled up by his practiced charm. It's not meant to be wedged in between where there's back and forth, or possibilities, etc, which is why this shouldn't be complicated.
Baldur's Gate 3 is not a dating sim. It's a choice based game where you get close to your companions so that they may help you, and in exchange, you can help them.
Which is why letting him Ascend, letting him give up his soul, whatever humanity he had left, assuming it was the "right thing to do for him", is the black in contrast to the white. It is, quite literally, the "abuse becomes the abuser" ending. Just because he shows that he can tolerate Tav, does not mean it's the middle ground.
During the long rest after he ascends before he makes you a vampire if you succeed the insight check you can see what he really thinks of you. He may love you but will never consider you an equal.
It makes me think of how in Invincible Omniman still loves his wife but more like a pet than a person.
The detect thought sequence can be taken in two ways.
The other way is that he sees himself as inferior to you, so you’re degrading yourself to be with him. I prefer this version because, by choosing to be with him and become his consort, I’m saying he’s worth it.
In the German version the detect thoughts is much clearer than the English one, he thinks that you are degrading yourself by having chosen someone like him since the start, aka he lacks self-confidence
THIS THIS THIS! I was SO confused all the time WHY ppl think he feels like TAV is "below" him when in fact, the german translation clearly states the exact opposite (I also played the game in english on my second playthrough, and i interpreted the english dialogue exactly like the german one). It makes it even more tragic tbh. He literally thinks TAV is too good for him and is crippled (still) by self-doubt EVEN THOUGH he is "an all mighty vampire lord" now. I feel like that is also EXACTLY why he gets so aggressive and possessive whenever TAV doesn't agree with him or calls him out - he knows he is bad for TAV, who has been by his side through it all - and he's probably not gonna be able to treat her right. He might be powerful on the outside now - but inside he is stuck in feeling like he's weak - Neil did SUCH a good job in portraying the ascended side of him - he's almost comically evil but him having to SAY how powerful he is all the time, just seems (to me) like he still has to convince himself of that, because his paranoia still lingers.@@readyraito9154
@@iamalex.7131 yes, i agree all 100 percent with you. It's sad that basically everyone who played in English misinterpreted those lines. To me though, it shows that most of the players were already having poisonous thoughts about ascending him, they had pre-existing judgement and read it exactly in the way they wanted to read it, negatively as a proof that ascended is bad and spawn is good. All I see tbh is a bunch of scaredy-cats being afraid of giving him back the freedom he had when he was human. Spawn Astarion is super dependant on Tav and he will be alone once Tav will meet death.
@@NWard1210 There is a bit of dialogue that plays into this insight check all the way back in Act 2 after the blood merchant tries to get Astarion to bite her. It only appears if you are not romancing him. He starts saying how he uses his looks and charms to manipulate and maybe he doesnt have to. If you specifically answer something like"you may have to to keep us alive" he says "Youre right, its not that I'm lowering myself, its that they degrade themselves every time they fall for it, over and over again". The fact that they specifically choose the word "degrading" yourself again makes me think the game is implying he is reverting back to his old tricks and hates that your falling for it, just like everyone else. You are no longer as special
I mean, you can bite him every day to have the happy buff so technically, you feed on him and eventually, at some point, you'll become a full vampire.
He doesn’t seem genuinely happy, like he’s just trying to convince himself that he is because he can’t go back now
i 100% believe this too. he gave up the chance of being happy before he even knew how that felt, now he has to live with the consequences of it. or at least as long as his vampirism lets him live with the remorse before it completely corrupts his feelings. so tragic! but a good story nonetheless
he's happy, if you take ascended astarion to see a mirror, he can see his reflection again and his voice crack from happiness
@@seliamila1005 He isn't happy. His emotions are all twisted after he ascends and he isn't capable of happiness or love afterwards.
@@avashnea Where did you see that he is unhappy?.. I see a very satisfied and confident vampire lord who is involved in politics and throws parties, enjoys food, his reflection, the sun, wealth and the return of full human feelings. If he is in an affair with Tav, he is generally infinitely happy, he received everything he dreamed of: freedom, power, money, strength, a loved one nearby. He dreamed about this the whole game.
@@yuttasparrow0private You see what you WANT to see, not what the game is actually showing you. He's no more happy than Cazador was and is exactly like Cazador, even down to his rules.
It’s interesting to see people arguing over “no he’s toxic and it’s a bad relationship” and “no he loves Tav”
Those things aren’t mutually exclusive. They can BOTH be true and even at the same time as eachother. People who engage in toxic or abusive behaviour are capable of love, they just aren’t necessarily capable of creating or maintaining healthy relationships because of their toxic choices and personality
obession =/= love
love was when he was a spawn. he was capable of maintaining healthy relationship back then. now he isn't
@@valeriesq I think abusive relationships are often also loving. That's just a semantic difference, though. (What is love? Baby don't hurt me. lol)
@@morgantollhall psychology would disagree
@@morgantollhall no they're not. and its incredibly disrespectful to say that they are. love is not toxic. the "love" present in toxic relationships is something else, disguised as love. when you are loved you don't get abused, simple as that. because someone who actually, truly really loves you would never hurt you in those ways.
Except if you have Tav ask Astarion if he'll take control of them, which is an option I believe later in the dialogue tree, he'll say "Of course not, you're going to be wonderfully obedient." Tav has a dialogue option to ask when they'll become a TRUE vampire, and Astarion reassures them it'll happen "in due time," so even if people misinterpret his explanation, he didn't make Tav a full vampire. Tav is his spawn. Like, yeah, Astarion loves Tav, but Ascended Astarion loves Tav in a way a person loves a possession. If Tav refuses to become his spawn if he's Ascended, they break up. He will only have a Tav that will submit because them becoming his spawn is the only way he can feel secure that they won't and can't betray him.
Tav isn’t a spawn, they’re a bride
@@NWard1210 In regards to the control that Astarion holds over Tav, this is a distinction without a difference.
@@Lyonfaced ua-cam.com/video/I4CfTJj64JE/v-deo.htmlsi=mNgomsOPo8a6JdaT
There’s a big difference actually.
Okay, show us where in the game Astarion is proven to be capable of magically compelling Tav once the tadpole is removed then. He's all talk. If you guys can believe that he lied and manipulated Tav about loving them, then he could easily lie about having control (just important to note that vampires do resort to lying about how much control they have over their bride/groom to manipulate the latter because they can't magically compel their bride/groom, so words/lies/threats are all they have.)
@@aibhe Tav is a Spawn. A Vampire Bride is a Spawn. Astarion explicitly says he doesn't turn Tav into a full vampire, and in BG, that means with complete autonomy. If you think A!Astarion, the most powerful vampire to ever exist, can't compel his own Spawn, special or otherwise, I have no idea what you think being Ascended even means. & Idk what you mean by "believe" as if it's not plain that Astarion has a history of and does manipulate Tav's feelings before he falls for them and again as A!Astarion re. "I'd never hurt you! I love you. That's what you've been waiting to hear, isn't it? That's what you want?" when trying to convince Tav to become his spawn.
In fact, and I don't say that to be disrespectful of course :) Writers themselves said that ascended Astarion is an ending that shows the players failed to see Astarion beyond their own fantasies.
Ascended Astarion is more about possessing a person, a thing even, while non ascending Astarion kept his humanity. In DnD vampires are monsters, the more powerful they are the more they lost their humanity. I don't think Ascended Astarion do loves Tav and in this dialogue I see more of a manipulation and fake comment, he wants Tav as what he owns, not as someone he loves unlike the not acended ending :)
This is my own read, based on my playthrough so far and on what I've read from the writers but I love to see all kind of interpetations tbh! I just think it's nice to see also the evil sides of characters regarding the way we lead them through their questlines
That's really weird concept about "failed to see beyond fantasy", because it's not a dating sim, besides romance there are so much more to this story.
People choose Ascension not because we get more horny scenes, players didn't know while playing that there will be dominant vampire daddy thing going on after this and also, asexuals exist.
Ascension is promising safety, ability walk in the sun and quite a happy looking future for the character and i don't think this kind of motivations is about players inability to see beyond fantasy in him. It's very much a human response, to do whatever it takes to make loved one happy and safe. What it rather shows us it that shady ways to happiness is leading to shady outcomes: not only we are sending 7k souls to hell, we also loosing the soft side of Astarion and basically make him a full-blown villian,a monster. It makes a lot of sense that a guy gets fully currupted after demonic ritual, but nothing about this ending is about "failing to see a person in him". Yep, his love now as currupted and twisted as himself, yet i guess some of us are okay with that's because it's a fantasy story.
In spawn ending he stays in extremely dependent position and the whole thing is just looks like perfect "i can fix him" kind of ending, which is not less fantasy thing than a evil ending. For me most of it looked like corny mental health monologues and felt absolutely separated from world setting we are placed, but again, i can accept it as a fairy tale kind of ending(and, i am sorry, but isn't it a dark fantasy game in a first place and all of it is a roleplay,a fantasy, like wtf we even talking about, but anyway)
That is just their personal opinion not official statement, and that is the point of rpg its desire fulfillment
@@another_one_0nice comment
Though I see the situation a bit differently but I do understand both of your point of view. I agree on the side that the interpretation lays in the eyes of the players and the way we imagine what's Astarion's best option (and maybe what's his true self?). It's a game so we can only interprete. Thanks for these two answers
Thank you for saying this, I feel like some people look at the ascended ending and all they think is "omg wow he's so hot and manipulative 😍"
It's fine to fantasize about that, but what bugs me is when people sincerely try to pretend that ascended Astarion is happy. The game blatantly tells you he isn't happy and that he views Tav as someone lesser than him, I don't know how people missed it.
Look, it is a fucked up "romance". If that's your thing, by all means, go ahead! Enjoy it! It's fictional after all. But for the love of god don't start doing mental gymnastics to try and justify his behavior when you all know it's screwed up lmaooo
I truly think after doing some lord digging that Astarion made Tav his bride/groom. There’s lore you can search up if you just google it on DnD about how it works and it’s VERY fascinating. At this point I think he manipulates Tav she she/he/they don’t realize Tav has freedom to do whatever they want. Maybe not go in the sun, but Arent bound to Astarion as much as Astarion makes you think. Vampires by nature are VERY obsessed. Their whole being when they make you a bride/groom is dependent on you and takes a whole lot of power to make sure he doesn’t die when you get too much blood, when you don’t die so you don’t be driven insane and go mad.
There’s a hidden epilogue by Withers that says, when you break up with Astarion, Astarion still thinks of you and occasionally thinks of inviting you, but that’s not what a lord would do. He has an obsession. Love? Maybe. Love and obsession mixed together? Most likely. He does have feelings for you, just very different compared to Spawn Astarion
Sorry if this gets long I just really love his story and his character development so I’m prone to hyper fixation rambling 😂… but like …. I think he’s lying? ignoring the fact that full vampires cannot love. like it’s literally canon that they can’t . His whole back story is about him being good at telling people what they want to hear in order to get what he wants / what his master asked of him, and as a full vampire he wants to possess you so he’ll spout whatever romantic drivel you wanna hear if it means he can do that. I mean you’re free to interpret/ head canon how you like, and live out your vampire power fantasy (it’s a role playing game after all), but like he still calls you a spawn on more than one occasion and if you try to break up with him he says basically ‘tough tits I own you. You literally can’t leave.’ If you don’t go through with it he will literally say he was manipulating you, he’s good at it, and that he would have used you and your love for him. If you read his mind you’ll hear that he sees you as debasing yourself to be with him. They put in that first scene you showed to foreshadow your fate, just like you get that scene where he’s using all his best lines on you one of his lines is literally ‘I love you’ which shows he’s not above saying that when he doesn’t mean it. I think the fact that most of the clips you see of ascended astarion are of him being an asshole is pretty telling. The writers put a lot of work into deconstructing the sexy vampire fantasy and it feels kind of unfair to ignore it.
But like it is just a role playing game. So as long as your story leaves you feeling satisfied that’s all that matters.
Of course he has a twisted sense of "love". Hes a vampire after all, but I thought its interesting how as a spawn he wouldnt even consider the thought of a real vampire doing something like that for a spawn because his own master was nothing but awful to him, yet when he gets the chance to turn you he does the very thing he would have never imagined a master would allow a spawn to do. I guess its what he believes caring for someone is, of course in a twisted way because vampirism.
What i mean is if a vampire was capable to love someone this would be the closest it gets lol
On spawn Astarion: I do believe spawn astarion feels love for you from that point on though, after all how can he truly say he loves you if he has never experienced love before and has been forced to act as a partner and mimic love for centuries. He has a looot of work to do before he can actually identify those feelings as love and recieve love from someone.
The thing with ascended Astarion is all those insecurities and feelings from his spawn self are exaggerated and turned into obsession and posessiveness for you because of vampirism and dark desire. Also Ascended Astarion is quite an insecure man so he would rather humiliate you before admiting he is hurt that you dont want to spend eternity together after he showed you his vampire peepee
This is a fantastic and well thought out response.
@@covertgoblin I mean I’m just not sure how he’s done something he said a vampire master would never do… He makes you a spawn. HIS spawn. You are not equals you never will be because he will never let go of that power he has over you, just like he said a vampire master would never do. The game is basically trying to warn you that being turned into a spawn is the bad ending for his arc.
@@covertgoblin "vampire peepee" way to end that whole block of text
I fully agree with everything, except they’re not deconstructing the vampire myth at all, they’re reinforcing it. That’s how actual vampires have always been portrayed, starting with Stoker.
Also note with the vampire bride theory is one of Ascended Astarion’s lines is him loving the idea of Bhaal’s army of you play as Durge, saying it would be a lovely dowry like WHERES THE DOWRY COMING FROM IF NOT FROM A MARRIAGE
Exactly! The Durge play through is pretty much the only one where he explicitly mentions anything about a marriage, but the same would be true for other MCs who allow AA to turn them.
I just think there should be more choices to hug him in the game as there are a few times dialogue should have given the option to hug him for comfort 😢❤️
This game is truly a dissertation on how absolute power corrupts absolutely
See Ascended Astarion reminds me of a AMA on reddit with a person who was either a psychopath or sociopath (I can't remember which) who was married with a wife and three kids I believe. He doesn't believe that he truly "loves" his children, but he sees them more as toys in the sense that they are beings that he can mould/shape while still having their independence and minds. To him, the children are not dolls that he can play with, but independent people he has a chance at shaping and feels protective over. In my own opinion at least that's how Astarion views his relationship with Tav. Tav is not a person he can outright control, at least not that we can see, and he recognizes them as their own independent person, but there is a bond of possessiveness and protectiveness that binds them, not to mention lust, of course. Without a soul he cannot truly feel emotions such as love, but something in him does its damn best to replicate that into vampiric feelings for Astarion, and in his own twisted way he truly does love Tav, but it's just not in a way that he used to as a spawn.
I don't think we have to take it's necessarily this serious, but if we do, i would say this:
I suspect that writer's intention was to show narcissistic obsession. Narcissist is not really attached to you or love you, but they are extremely obsessed with their own need for you and your love,and they are hyper controlling because of their extreme fear of rejection and abandonment in any form. Astarion himself is a good example of a person with narcissistic footprint. I have read about this term in my native language, i am not sure how it's called in English, but basically it's a psychological trauma that makes person without narcissistic disorder act very much like a narcissist without actually having this condition. Its usually obviously caused by severe narcissistic abuse and I kinda feel like it describes Astarion trauma quite well: he definitely can't be diagnosed (before the ritual) with narcissistic disorder because he has really well-developed empathy, but he was abused by Cazador for so long that he absorbed a lot from his abuser's personality. Despite probably being an assh0le even before Cazador, he rather had some narcissistic traits but not a full blown disorder.
I feel like people demonize both Asc Astarion and narcissists in real life and as narcissistic abuse victim myself, I completely understand that. Yet we should understand that some people become vampires/narcissists for quite tragic reasons, you don't have to be sympathetic for your abusers irl because you know, let them burn in hell, but as i mentioned earlier, there is such thing as narcissistic footprint. I can't really make myself hate Asc Astarion, i rather feel incredibly sorry to see how his desperate attempt to finally feel safe and protect vulnerable side of his heart backfires so freaking much in this ending. Narcissistic rage caused by harmed narcissistic fragility(also interesting term if you want to explore what's wrong with our vampire dude) is terrible thing, scary to watch even in the game.
If anyone one get interested in this topic, i strongly recommend Dr.Ramani channel here on UA-cam, especially her video about narcissist understanding of love and how narcissists are made.
@@another_one_0 Well said. This is supported by a comment in the script, calling his outburst 'narcissistic rage' when the player breaks up with him.
as someone with aspd yeah, he rings all the bells. People with aspd do kinda feel love I think but not the same as others. If something is mine I will be very protective of it and I would commit murder to protect it. (Not speaking from experience but I have done some legally questionable things to protect my friends.) As soon as I get rejected I switch up instantly and the desire to break or hurt becomes really intense. I'd guess AA is the same in that.
beautifully said! I think you hit the nail on the head with that one - which imo makes it just so much more tragic because i am sure a lot of people chose AscAstarion because they wanted "the best for him" - e.g. making his "own" decisions ("own" in this case because the decision is made in a moment of complete overhelm/trauma) and him being able to walk in the sunlight and never to be controlled by anyone again. Thanks for sharing! @@another_one_0
Ascended Astarion admited he would've used and manipulated Tav after you broke up with him. He makes not-so-subtle degrading remarks if you try to break up with him. Also, he calls karlach defective and useless after trying to bite her, so there's that. Textbook definition of toxic relationship.
True talk, yo, True talk, yo.
His love is very selfish and predatory, it is a love-obsession. Vampire love. He was essentially a vampire spawn whose senses and feelings of the world are also distorted, and always will be as long as he is a vampiristic creature, this is no fairy tale. By the way, as a mortal elf, he was also power hungry and a corrupted magistrate. Such a naughty little fellow.
I'm very glad Larian let whoever likes it enjoy a passionate dark.
Oh, and also, "manipulated your feelings until you were nothing."
Tav: Break up with him knowing that we've become very important to him.
Astarion the Ascended: *puts out his teeth and fangs, hurting us*
Tav: surprised pikachu face.
What do you think he should have said after the breakup?
"I respect your choice, darling. I'm sorry it happened, of course, but there we go. I would have loved only you for all eternity, and I still do and will. You are the most important person in my life and true love. I wish you happiness." - is weakness and refinement for a Vampire Lord who's just been left behind.
This man approved when we stole something from a kid. He's kind of the antonym of righteousness, he's immoral. So he's still kind of soft on us. Considering he hates being weak.
He tells us in a very logical way, keeping his strength. Is he hiding something? Well, I'm sure he is.
This is how I understand Ascended Astarion: he is destructive and he is fire. If you upset fire, it burns you, if you are good with fire, you get warmth and bread.
And if he was a total nasty vampire, he would have bitten Tav in the night, nothing would have stopped him. Strange that he didn't, I think he wouldn't mind trying cunning to convince us, or charisma in the future.
@@alexandradel9712 Stop coping. You can literally detect his thoughts right before the sex scene after he ascends. Guess what you find out? That he looks down on you and that he will *never* see you as his equal.
This has nothing to do with upsetting him beyond bruising his pride; he absolutely doesn't love you. Ascended Astarion is nothing but a corrupted shell of his former self. He becomes the mask he was putting on previously, aka Cazador 2.0. You're flat out misunderstanding his entire character and the ramifications of the ascension choice if you think otherwise.
@@ssshjsssj5033 Vampire spawns are twisted, corrupted, vampires too, always, no masks, they are very honest. Astarion corrupted from the very beginning, just look in the digital artbook. Masks... You make it sound like he hasn't enjoyed the power and carnage since Act 1. But he has, very honestly. Yes, a test of wisdom that says " perhaps we want to degrade ourselves and he knows it". He's not wrong. Yeah, you said " Cazador 2," you feel better now? Good.
I'm wondering when your weird witch hunt and moralizing essays are gonna end. I've already had that experience of communicating such an argument on Astarion, so that's the end of my answers to you.
@@ssshjsssj5033 yeah lets just summarize 200 hours of playthrough in 1 detect thoughts or perception check about vampire hierarchies lol
@@covertgoblin You can in this case. The entire point of that entire detect thoughts is to show how he has changed post ascension.
It is so annoying because manipulative/evil/clever character should be able to say Astarion: "I will help you ascend, on one condition that you will make me a true vampire as well. Let's make a pact."
i feel like a lot of the things astarion did could've been foreseen and avoided yeah
You do realize this would still be irrelevant right? Spawn astarion loves you like Gomez loves Morticia. Ascended astarion loves you like a collector or an artist. You're to be admired and kept for his pleasure not for yours.
I thought that Ascended Astarion was pure evil, but seen this, maybe my chaotic good warlock will try a healthy ascended Astarion romance, while my goody two-shoes cleric will just love healthy unascended Astarion.
Yeah, my Tav had no issues kneeling last night. lmao
Step 1: idealization
Step 2: breaching boundaries
Step 3: reward/punishment
Step 4: devaluation
Step 5: conflict
Step 6: discard
Step 7: reinforcing a state of dependence
Rinse and repeat..
He’s gonna DENNIS system you
He's only at step one. If Tav has some autonomy, which I'm assuming they do considering he gave her his blood. Not a lot but still. She'll probably be able to push back if he reaches for stage 2.
@@kayleighbrown459 tav can respond that they have no freedom with him and he dismisses it like tav should be thankful for everything he provides in exchange for their autonomy.
Its really weird how everyone is renaming what is only abuse as love when it has a pretty face on it. But it explains why so many cant leave an abusive relationship.
Spawn ending is equally romanticized "i can fix him" and has co-dependency undertone, yet significant part of fanbase accidentally got moral superiority complex and now busy policing everyone with it
if you took some more time to analyze both endings you would realize both mirror each other. spawn astarion is vulnerable, he can be abused, tav is the only thing he has. what happens if tav doesnt help him heal? the game lets you gaslight him, betray him and he will stay by your side no matter what. that is no better.
but then again its only comments like these that want to argue about which ending is better and whos a better boyfriend to tav when the discussion isnt about that
@@Bmo-xth I love both endings,despite being critical towards spawn ending(or rather i am questioning fandom perception of it),i still genuinely enjoyed both
It's okay to feel passionate and emotional about game character, but this toxic flood has to be addressed and cut off(naive hopes, but maybe in one day...), we can debate how unhealthy/toxic/loveless our imaginary vampire bf is, but this - this is bullying, clown level of it. Toxic fanbase keeps repeating the same narrative, they don't even try to engage in open and honest discussion, i highly doubt that this approach has anything to do with "i am just worried about you all romanticizing abuse,blah blah blah".
It feels like too many people who had no idea what roleplay is have entered the fandom
It seems to me like Asc Astarion fans are treating this more like a game roleplay, and toxic Spawn fans are rather have something of parasocial/limerence kind of attachment to this character, but again,no judgement, couldn't care less if not this drama over nothing
cringe, its not that deep, some people are into ascended and its fine
@@another_one_0Now you're just projecting at this point. All of your comments have been you saying how wrong and toxic Spawn Astarion fans are, while ranting about how your equally messed up option is objectively better.
I don't doubt that ascended Astarion loves Tav, however, it's a very twisted and unhealthy love. My main issue is that ascended Astarion definitely isn't happy, and that's why I personally couldn't bring myself to do it in more than one playthrough
Is he really fully happy and safe in spawn ending though? For me both a bittersweet kind of ends
@@another_one_0 It's debatable whether or not Astarion is happy in the spawn ending, and I honestly agree with you, neither of his endings are really "good". But he is undeniably miserable in the ascended ending. When you really compare the two, based on what the game shows us (who knows how he feels after the events of the game), I think he's infinitely happier if he never ascends. Additionally, it's also a much healthier romance lol
@@_mexiril_1584 there is a way to make him happy in asc ending - playing full evil playthrough :D
@@another_one_0 I mean... on a superficial level, sure-but you can't seriously think he's genuinely happy? 😭
@@_mexiril_1584 i mean, "I am vicious violent man who takes pleasure in murder and torture, my main ambition in life is power and having fun, there is a way to become more powerful, rule the world and cause chaos on whole new level" yes, i think evil Astarion would enjoy being vampire lord very much, why shouldn't he? o.O
I wish it were as simple as it looks in this video. That Astarion ascending could just be a good thing. I just watched a video called *"Burn (Ascended Astarion animatic)",* and I think that is probably accurate to how things would end up with Ascended Astarion...as apparently ascended vampires always become a twisted, cruel version of who they once were.
lol patch 5 confirmed ascended and tav are happy, you cant draw a conclusion from a fanmade animation
@@seliamila1005 100%!
@@seliamila1005 I'm not. It's a piece of things. But, speaking of that, I think you haven't seen all the angles. "Happy"...as long as you don't mention wanting freedom.
A "six months later" is nice. But any abusive relationship can only last so long.
Ascended, he doesn't give a shit about Tav. If you manage to read his mind before he makes Tav a vampire, they spell it out that he doesn't respect you. And that he resents/hates Tav for letting him do it.
So no, I'm not basing it off fan content alone.
D&D ascended vampires become a twisted form of themselves. A bard who wants to make people happy will turn into a vampire that forces people to dance, and kills those who don't. A paladin who wants to keep people safe will become a tyrant.
The difference between ascended Astarion and normal Astarion is palpable.
If anything, you should see what happens when ascended Astarion tries to turn Karlach. If the ensuing events don't break your heart and show you how valuable his "consort" is...well.
Don't get me wrong. I _want_ a happy Astarion ascended end. But giving Sebastian another chance at life and love, letting the Gur learn that not all "monsters" are evil, letting Astarion become his own person instead of becoming like Cazador...instead of Tav's value being directly tied to how obedient they are...
Obviously it's a game. And at the end of the day, it's up to the individual what they see in the art. But what I see, when seeing all the angles...it seems like a thinly-veiled "happiness" to me, at best.
This conveniently ignores the scene you get after breaking up where he makes it evident that he does not. He is obsessed with Tav, but love? No. How could he love someone that is beneath him? That is as low as the person he was, the person you both killed, to make him what he is now? He does not love you. In fact, I think he barely cares about you.
he loves tav, him saying hurtful thing is to be expected from break up, patch 5 with ascendant confirmed that he do loves tav
@@seliamila1005Nah
@@cryptkid4026cry abt it
If he doesn't care he wouldn't have given you any of his blood at all. He's just turn you into what he was.
Like, yeah. He says that. But Astarion is nothing if not full of shit.
@@kayleighbrown459 I said barely, not he does not care.
I don't get people who romance him and yet still think he'll control Tav. These people clearly haven't read his lines, since he clearly says he gave Tav his blood, and in future both him and Tav would drink from each other.
I see Ascended Astarion as high. He's been a slave for two centuries, now he's the one in charge, the powerful one, and it clearly goes to his head. But he's still a terrible liar. Go have a threesome with the twins after he Ascended. Asterion says yes, but it's crystal clear that he didn't enjoy it afterwards, because he's basically gaslighting himself into doing stuff he thinks he's supposed to be doing now that he's free, including the conquering the world bullshit. It will take time to get down from that, but after a while, by the writing AND acting he got, he will go back more or less to his usual self.
This route has the POTENTIAL to be the evil one. But it's not a given. I don't think it's the bad ending or anything, just a different ending. Basically the difference is Ascended Astarion tackles the physical problem (being a spawn, not being able to go into the sun after the tadpole is removed) before the emotional one, while the other route tackled the emotional problem (his insecurities) before the physical one.
Thank you! Yes, I think that too.
When you wait with the ascension until right before the bossfight (or avoid camp) against the brain and the epilogue, he is way less controlling because theres way less things to fear, he is free of his tadpole and a bit of time has passed since he ascended.
He is just completely drunk on power, but it will ebb away eventually. And unlike a "normal" Vampire Lord, he can enjoy "the joys of man", how raphael put it. Mephistopheles Blessing grants him the ability to love. He just has to get his stupid paranoid vampire blood under control.
I think a long, deep, sincere talk with him while being somewhere he feels save could do wonders. It wouldnt cure his lying self instantly of course, but its a first step. 😅
Tav replies in the epilogue “No one dares touch us, my love”. Though Astarion doesn't mind a good fight and a bit of chaos, as always ХD Love the vibes of this evil couple of ally-lovers
For those of you who think Ascended Astarion "still loves Tav", play as Karlach and try the Ascended route. Hell, you can even do everything he tells you to do. Then you can see his true colors.
Funny because Ascended Astarion and Karlach can go to hell together and still in a relationship, there's video about it on Nyloth channel
@@seliamila1005 ooh really? I need to go check that one out.
@@Bmo-xth there's a bunch of potential reasons and sadly we just don't know. My rule of thumb is if it's cut then it's cut for a reason and can't be considered canon anymore, but a lot of the cut content does still make perfect sense so make of it what you will for your personal head canons. I think that's part of the fun.
@@Bmo-xth oh that's cooooooool I wanna see that :D
I understand that I don't see the difference in vampiric and human love so far (I've only played BG3 so far and slowly introduce myself to the D&D lore and mechanics through videos). I mean, there are words like "obsession", "posession" etc. coming from many people while they define vampiric love without concrete behavioural examples (like scenes from life) of it and without these examples the words sound a bit meaningless for me, at least in case of AAsterion/Tav relationship one can see in the game.
To be clear, "posessive" means for me situations when a person goes on their partner like "don't go to your friends, you have me", "talk only to me", "why are you looking at them, when you have me?", "why have it taken so long for you to talk to them, when I'm here?". Do we get phrases like that from AAstarion? No, never, actually. He doesn't mind Tav going to the reunion party, he wishes even to host it, he encourages her to go and have fun with friends without him. Apart from that, he even doesn't mind an affair with Halsin (which is a bit too libertine for my liking, but never the less)! Where is here this extreme scarry posessivenes many people are talking about? I suppose, the people are a bit neurotic, because a posessive person will never even let somebody glimps in another direction without an immediate reaction least being ok with an affair.
Concerning "obsessive", it means for me situations, when a person goes like "I can think only of you and nothing else at all in my life concerns me or is interresting to me", "I don't want to go out, meet anybody, have friends or fun when I'm with you", "why shall I have plans for life? I can't think about my life, I can think only about yours and about you", "I don't have hobbies and interest apart from you", "I can't see where I end and you begin", "your things are my things" etc. None of it applies for Astarion either. He wants to conquer the world, so he has a plan for his life (moralisations aside, it is a goal in life, like making carreer), he wants to travel and taste "everything Fayerun has to offer", so he clearly takes interest in life overall. He always talks about having fun and is very enthusiastic about things he conciders fun, so he's not at all limiting himself to the fun of Tav, he wants fun for him self from sources iutside of their relationship. He says that he has it all, talks about his powers, about his plans and not non-stop about Tav. All he wants is just to share all his gifts with a person he cherishes and feels being gifted with. He diesn't loose himself in Tav, one can even break up with him and you won't see him followinv you in the game or sending minions after you. So, from my point of view, one can cross out "obsessive" part from the AAstarion/Tav relationship too.
What are we left with? I guess it's just love as it is. Love of a powerful person towards the less powerful one. The only issue here is definitely power imbalance, which can be evened out when Tav is made true vampire by Astarion (or bride/groom as people here mention), and the relationship is perfectly normal with a bit of kinky spice to save things from turning dull. That's it.
I think that was the last of AA's good and morality. That last bit kept your from blindly becoming his slave and trapping you like he was but he sill continues the cycle of abuse.
Tbh this explanation seems very conventional. And, well, conventional things don't appear as they are in people like him. I do believe he very much appreciates the ability of using you and manipulating you, hence him not allowing you to be un-sired. And him turning you into a bride, a special type of spawn, is a show of that too. He still doesn't grip his new freedom neither emotionally nor cognitively. He still is a shitty little vampire that hurts.
To me, it's when he talks to you about his grand plans and wishes. The way he trusts you with how much he desires after all the years of feeling unsatisfied. That's trust. Emotional, phisical, cognitive. Yes, he may include you as a last thought, but he does want you to be the part of both plan and planning. Thats unity in vile. Vile that he carried alone all the way. That's important because it's the way you reach this ending, by being vile. You might betray each other thousand times in future, you might hurt and destroy. You will still be one, soul to soul. I think the idea is that in no other circumstances would anyone let astarion kill 7k random dudes for any kind of power and revenge. So, it's not about freedom. It's about being the only ones. Which is quite, uh, amoral? Idk the english word. Its not considered a good thing commonly. And, well, it's not.
And that's beautiful.
' You will still be one, soul to soul. I think the idea is that in no other circumstances would anyone let astarion kill 7k random dudes for any kind of power and revenge. So, it's not about freedom. It's about being the only ones. ' THIS omg I never thought about it this way. When I first started this game I was SOOOO against ascended astarion but now.. the idea is warming up to me lmao there are so many underlying things with him in that route and its so interesting to see them unvielded and everyone's opinions and takes on it!
when he says he wants to take the world and is discussing these plans with you, he also says something like "I want to make whole world yours and mine alone". I play the game in my native language (subtitles) and it's translated to "I want to make whole world ours", which takes a lot from this dialog. For me, this dialog shows, how much Astarion takes you into consideration in his future ruling the world. Although there are dialogs, when he's more selfish, there are rare moments like that. It's either because he's manipulative or he still truly cares.
i’m obsessed with tragic love stories. i can see tav and astarion’s love wreaking havoc on everyone around them and eventually maybe they’ll get put down (together) by the next hero who comes along. but no one can say their love didn’t burn a hole in the world 😩
@@cupknee OOOH THIIIIIIIS
YESSSSSSSS
one perfectely fuckable hole
As much as I prefer spawn Astarion route, I'm definitely trying this one at least once. I even have a character in mind to do so (my OC from different game lol) I feel like Ascended Astarion is pretty horrible at times, but I like this outcome because of story reasons. I'm not teady yet to try to romance him in this state, but maybe... My OC character actually would do both, keep him as a spawn and ket him do the ritual - for simply having someone to love. My deranged self-righteous high elf mage would be good match for him lol this or evil durge to try out obviously.
I don't hate Ascended Astarion, but as for my own romance I prefer other route, it feel a bit more for me. Or maybe I just want to be the stronger one at least once and protect him (in some sense). I kove how complex his character is and both outcomes make perfect sense for me, even if one almost breaks my heart I'm starting to see why so many people defend it. I might not agree with all that pure love confessions from Ascended Astarion, but I want to see it for myself, not just bits of opinions of other people. My biggest problem with this would be that... I want to be dominant myself or at least have option to switch parts 😂 I'm bot submissive overall, but maybe I will be able to create character who would be more willing just for fun of it (If I won't die cringing, I hope not, I like Astarion too much 😂)
Somehow seeing both sides helps me understand that .. people are crazy af for being this hateful towards others 💀
Sorry for a bit dramatic puke of words, very good video btw 👍 I got information I wanted to see.
@@user-vd1rf6iq9h Honestly I'm not scared of him. More like annoyed 😂 but I will definitely try to go with this in future play through. Not sure if I will handle romance route with him this way, but we might be a-hole badass bros 😁 I will see how it goes. I genuinely like his character (like most companions) but Astarion and Gale are so relatable sometimes for me it's scary. Definitely well written stories.
For me more proof, when Tav become mind flayer and their dialogue after ending. Where he doesn’t need to lie anymore at all and says about his feelings and suggest alliance.
"You were already perfect before, its hard to improve" - its so obvious he is saying that to avoid the character begging to turn them into a full vampire, he wants all the power and he will never share it xD its such a great manipulative character writing!
I still have my doubts. Cause Ascended Astarion breaks up with you immediately if you don't become his spawn. He he really loved me he would want to be with me whether I was his spawn or not. But he's like either become my spawn or it's over. He wants to own you, possess you. That's not love. You can tell that after you become a spawn and you ask him whether he would ever control you. Then he says he won't need to cause you'll be obedient. So what if I'm not obedient? What if we get into a fight or argument? He'll end up using his powers to control you
He can’t because, if he turns you, you become a bride / groom and vampire lords can’t control them the same way they can their spawn. Read the lore on it, it’s very interesting.
And it’s a vampire love - people really are forgetting that spawn astarion is still a vampire and neutral evil. This whole, I can fix him, attitude is completely OOC because vampires are built differently. If you want a wholesome love, maybe try dating someone else.
@NWard1210 I think you're confused. Are you sure you're talking about vampire Lore in DnD specifically? Cause Astarion admits he's turning you into a spawn. Not some actual consort or bride. He just thinks that spawn is an ugly word cause he does in his super twisted way care as he would any important possession. But when you ask to become a true vampire and not his spawn. He hesitates, saying you'll "work up to that" or something. It seems to be easier to control you as a spawn should he need to than if you were a true vampire. He even admits that he CAN control you. But as I said he doesn't think he'll need to cause he expects you to be obedient. And as his spawn, if you try to break up with him, he gets super angry and says something along the lines of no way in hell that's happening. I own you. I control you. You're mine forever, and there's nothing you can do about it. Cause again, once you become his spawn, you are not free. You're tied to him forever. You are his possession. And Spawn Astarion romance was wholesome. Especially after his confession. I'm wondering if you saw all the same scenes that I did. Astarion has shown that vampires do have feelings, do experience love, guilt, sadness. Just a little twisty than normal people After the events with Cazador, even Jaheira commented that maybe she shouldn't believe all the rumors she heard about vampires because not ascended Astarions display with Cazador. Even the monster hunters, the gur, promise to leave Astarion alone cause he proved to be different from his other vampire brethen. Ascended Astarion is even more twisted and dark than normal spawn Astarion. I saw every scene possible involving these two versions of Astarion.
@@camille6853 What he’s says and what he does are two different things. Bride / groom lore says three bites and the maker’s blood. And the newly turned MC can go mad if they’re given too much blood straight away. AA just doesn’t say it outright.
@NWard1210 you keep saying bride / groom Lore, but show me where in DnD vampire Lore that states that if follows bride groom lore. Not every game/series/franchise follows the exact same Lore for vampires. Unless it specifically says that it does, then you're just making stuff up to fulfill your own head canon. And as far as I know, DnD vampire Lore has never mentioned ever following bride/groom Lore. So we can take what Astarion says and does as truth unless stated otherwise
@@camille6853a quick google found the excerpt you are looking for (fyi, this is rather long and taken directly from Richten's Guide to Vampires, which was an AD&D 2e era supplement):
Vampire Brides and Grooms
There are several nontraditional processes of creating new vampires as well, but these are much less widely known. One is in the taking of a "bride" or a "groom".
Creating a bride or groom, although seemingly a simple process, requires an exhausting exercise of much power by the creating vampire. For this reason, only vampires of advanced age and capability can even assay this procedure. A bride or groom can be created only by a vampire of age category Ancient or greater, and not even all of those are capable of doing so.
The first step requires that the vampire find an appropriate mortal to be the bride. (Note: With apologies to the feminine gender, I shall use the term "bride" and the pronouns "she" and "her" to refer to both brides and grooms. Unless otherwise specified, there are no restrictions or differences in the procedure based on the sex of either vampire or victim.) Usually this problem solves itself. Very rare is the vampire who decides in isolation, "I will make a bride", and then seeks out a mortal to fill the bill. In the vast majority of cases, the process occurs in the reverse order. The vampire is drawn emotionally to a mortal and decides, because of the strength of this emotion, to make her his bride.
The nature of this emotion can vary widely. It may simply be hormonal lust (after all, the physiological systems related to such effects in mortals are still present, and sometimes still functional, in vampires). It may be an obsession dating from the days before the vampire became what he now is, as is the case with Strahd Von Zarovich's obsession with women who resemble his lost Tatyana. In these cases, the vampire creates its bride in cold blood, for the sole purpose of satisfying its own desires.
Sometimes, however, the emotion may be close to what mortals classify as love. The happiness of the vampire becomes tied up with the prospective bride, and its well-being depends on hers. In these cases, the vampire might actually believe it is bestowing a gift when it turns the mortal into its bride - the gift of freedom from aging and death.
To actually create the bride, the vampire bestows what is known as the "Dark Kiss.” It samples the blood of its mortal paramour - once, twice, thrice - draining her almost to the point of death. This process causes the subject no pain; in fact, it has been described as the most euphoric, ecstatic experience, in comparison to which all other pleasures fade into insignificance. Just as the subject is about to slip into the terminal coma from which there is no awakening, the vampire opens a gash in its own flesh - often in its throat - and holds the subject's mouth to the wound. As the burning draught that is the vampire's blood gushes into the subject's mouth, the primitive feeding instinct is triggered, and she sucks hungrily at the wound, enraptured. With the first taste of the blood, the subject is possessed of great and frenzied strength, and will use it to prevent the vampire from separating her from the fountain of wonder that is its bleeding wound. It is at this point that the creator-vampire's strength is most sorely tested. He is weakened by his own blood loss, and also by his own rapture as the "victim" of a dark kiss. Overcoming the sudden loss of strength and the inclinations of lust, the vampire must pull her away from its own throat, hopefully without harming her, before she has overfed. Should the subject be allowed to feed for too long, she is driven totally and incurably insane, and will die in agony within 24 hours.
Once the subject has stopped feeding, she falls into a coma that lasts minutes or hours, at the end of which time, she dies. Several hours later, she arises as a Fledgling vampire - and her creator's bride! Her vampire creator must be present to teach her the requirements and limitations of her vampiric existence. Otherwise, she might not understand the necessity of feeding, and might even wander out into the sunlight and be destroyed.
The first moment that the bride realizes the ugly truth about her new nature can be highly traumatic, unless her creator takes steps to ease her acceptance. Even if her creator is sensitive to her emotional pain and gentles her into realization, only the most strong-willed person can come through that moment of understanding with sanity totally unshaken. The simultaneous acts of love and hatred, or taking a bride by murdering her, create an emotional paradox which is often impossible to resolve. In some cases, perhaps a majority, the knowledge of her fate totally unseats the bride's reason, and she becomes wildly and irrevocably mad. If this occurs, most creator vampires will be forced to mercifully destroy their brides - in the prescribed manner, as described later - and end their suffering. Of course, some cruel creatures will simply allow her to wander off to meet her own fate, even though doing so will cause the creator vampire some damage.
of course he still loves tav, it just turned twisted and weird. just like how an abusive narcistic person that also love their significant other but always subtly putting control over them.
yeah it baffles me that people made up this idea that ascended astarion just sees you as a puppet. he is nothing but grateful and deeply eternally in love. my heart sank when just before turning you he says "you have given me everything. thank you."
Play as Gale or Karlach. He's disgusted at you for factors beyond your control because he can't turn you and breaks up with you.
You can't stay with him if you refuse to become a spawn. In the ending scene, if you try to break up with him and you're his spawn, he laughs and says your fate is up to him to control now that the tadpole is gone.
Letting him ascend is telling him you want him to control you.
theres literally an insight check in the game that tells you he views turning you into a spawn as degrading you
@@HyuugaKirine he is angry you dont want to be his spawn because to him thats the equivalent of marrying you, its not something vampires do just like the video says hes making an exception for tav, if tav refused of course he wont take it well i thought we had already realized he is mean to cope with rejection. I dont know why people act like spawn astarion was never mean or never lied to you and act surprised if ascended astarion does the same thing
@@HyuugaKirine
ua-cam.com/video/wllJaKF49MQ/v-deo.htmlsi=LZRIuDkn-9fZy6LO
It's sheds more light on their romance, so it's more complicated than you state here
@@covertgoblin yeah but my quibble is people calling that "love". He's obsessive and possessive, not in love.
If you can accept that Tav is becoming a vampire bride/groom according to DnD lore, then you also need to read what happens to true vampires: "Whether or not a vampire retains any memories from its former life, its emotional attachments wither as once-pure feelings become twisted by undeath. Love turns into a hungry obsession."
He actually tells you he loves you, the same night he turns you into a vampire. Right before it happens, you have to select the option: “After everything you went through with Cazador, you’re going to make me a spawn?”
“Don’t be stupid, darling. You’re mine. We’ll be together forever, I can promise you that.”
He’s threatening you. That’s not real love.
If you want a wholesome love, date someone else 😂
@@NWard1210 You’re a good example of why it’s important to stay in school. 💞
@@omgpeachsnapple much love to you as well sweetie 😘 now bugger off
@@omgpeachsnappleHonestly.
he loves tav/durge, this is what a classic vampire love looks like, is it unhealthy by modern standard? Sure but a vampire this is typical
This guy could talk the pants off Penelope, I swear
There's apparently one other way to become a "true" vampire that Astarion did not mention (likely because he is not aware of it), but it's very specific and very unlikely to happen: you must have a Succubus *legitimately* fall in love with you while you are still mortal. In short, you need to win the genuine love of a demon/devil that would normally see such an interaction/relationship as a simple act of physical carnal pleasure, and yet you need to make said Succubus come to love you for who you are entirely of her own volition. This will apparently result in you transforming into a true Vampire at some point (and likely one with a Succubus bride).
thats actually pretty fucking sweet of him
Ascended Astarion quite literally admits he would've used your love for his own gain until nothing was left of it depending on certain dialogue choices. His soul died when he ascended, and so did any love he felt for you. That is the consequence of letting him ascend, you basically lose him to himself
That's only if you break up with him... of course he will try to get back at you for literally betraying him and breaking his heart?! He's hurt, and he'll try to explain in every way how you could leave him after everything you both went through, in a way that makes him stand above you. It's completely understandable with how he is, that he would react this way.
Sometimes people love comes from their ego. Narcissistic people still are able to love with all their heart, although mostly in forms that hurt those we love.
The more egotistical love is, the stronger the bond and anxiety is. You don't loose Astarion to ascension, you let some parts of his character prevail. Loving someone because they're the one you feel complete with can be a strong feeling even if it's only for your own gain. Even if that gain can be overpowered.
@@randomdogfacts9289 Thar's flat out untrue. You can use Detect Thoughts on him after he ascends at one point and you're literally told that he's looking down on you and will never see you as an equal. He is being brutally honest: he would have used your love as nothing as a tool.
Look, I get that some of you really like the idea of having it all. You want live happily ever after with Astarion for all time after he becomes super powerful. But it's pure cope or a blatant misunderstanding of his character arc and the Ascended choice to think this is anything but his bad ending. The game all but says that he becomes nothing but Cazador 2.0.
@@ssshjsssj5033 Oh no, I'm not ignorant that it's a toxic imbalanced kind of relationship, after all this is his 'bad ending' said by Larian. What I'm arguing is that people take a completely understandable reaction to being cast aside and basically being called a monster husk to your face, mean. Were people expecting flowers and an 'I'm sorry' from him after that?
Also saying he becomes Cazador 2.0 just proves you also don't understand his character at all, lol. Tavs mere existence goes against anything Cazador stands for, his rules, his way of existing. Ascended Astarion is very accomodating of you, and is in a power hungry state of mind, nothing more than that. The insight check proves to me that he still sees himself as little even after becoming ascendant and he's all but masking his emotions cause they go against what his new nature is pushing for after transformation, and you staying is very conflicting for him. He's scared of losing you, he makes you his vampire 'bride' so he'll never fear losing you. That's why for me only an equally power hungry person like Durge can be a match for asc. Astarion.
@@jennythif2530 Well said 🙏 I'm not denying it's toxic, but it's still love, just a warped high-fiction complicated form of love. And that toxicity can come from /both/ sides, after all BG3 is a storytelling narrative and you're more than encouraged to make your own history with the cards you're dealt by the game.
Ascended Astarion does love you, in his twisted own way as much as his state would allow him
Well.... If you ask him if he will make you a real vampire he tells that "you are not ready yet darling" :)
I personally see it as "I'm not ready to trast people"... But still... It shows that there are boundries to his care)
Vampires don't feel emotions, but Astarion just mimics what he used to feel for TAV, Astarion still has respect for our TAV for everything we did for him, but he no longer feels anything other than the memory he had of the relationship, so that's why that Astarion x Durge is the best option for me, they both don't feel anything, but they enjoy each other's carnal and sadistic pleasure
vampire feels emotion, if you are using this logic then SPAWN astarion is unfeeling as well
@@seliamila1005 spawns and Vampire Lords are different. Spawns retain their personalities, for the most part so do normal Vampires but Lords are forcefully changed into a Lawful Evil being that no longer retains their human characteristics. Read up on 5e lore.
The Spawnstarion fans are coming in hot this season, flee before they want to fix you, too
It’s so hard trying to find a safe space to enjoy ascended astarion content without being constantly bombarded by people who are trying to force their opinion down our throats (whether we like it or not).
Ironic really, when you think about it. Ascended astarion is more considerate than spawn fans are
@@NWard1210 it's especially funny that he's even more sappy to you as ascended and isn't abusive at all if you just treat him the same way you did before ascension, which shouldn't even be a hard thing to do, but apparently some hardcore Spawnstarions love to make a surprised pikachu face when they purposefully choose dialogue options to upset him like BREAKING UP WITH HIM
Like I've been emotionally abused for over a decade, if he was truly that horrible to my character I wouldn't like him
im not particularly an ascended fan i mostly just like all astarion content regardless of which version it is. i just think the whole thing about one of the writers talking about this being his "bad ending" made the whole conversation spiral into shaming people who prefer the ascended version of him. to me its not about objectifying him or sexualizing him like one of the writers said but more of a "i never want him to suffer and feel powerless again". i could do without the kink stuff but i do understand some people do enjoy a more dominant figure and they have their reasons to do so, often times those reasons are also rooted in abuse so i wouldnt go around shaming them, its a nuanced topic
@@covertgoblin yeah when I read about that "if you ascend him you failed to see him as a person and only see him as a sexual object" I was like....yeah, totally that's what my acespec ass had in mind all the time, only lust no thoughts 💀
@@prnc96 Well didn't you know? They only love the parts of Astarion that's easy to love (his "human" side). They can't love him at his worst because the moment he shows his "worse" parts (like how he becomes more arrogant or evil post ascension), he's suddenly not Astarion anymore. So much for unconditional love. They can argue all day about how spawn Astarion can be good and that's the real Astarion, but at the end of the day, even spawn Astarion has had the capability to do evil (approving heinous deeds). It's their choice to put on rose-tinted glasses and pretend those things were never a part of him, I'm not gonna tell them they're wrong for it like they constantly tell ascended fans we're wrong.
(In case it wasn't obvious, I was being wholly sarcastic because I know there are spawn fans who aren't toxic and have valid reasons to choose unascended route which isn't because they can't love Astarion at his worst or deliberately only sees the good parts in him. I like both routes myself, just playing the devil's advocate.)
In my humble opinion, ascended Astarion is a better ending than unascended one. I cannot see him being scorched by the sun. And it's not like his ascension would lead to some unavoidable deaths or bad outcomes (aside from spawns, which were already doomed anyway).
You're still his spawn though. 1 drop only enough for the blessing, not enough to turn you true vampire.
Dammit Neil, this is why you were the GOAT this year 😢❤
I think he thinks he still loves Tav. He might feel a fondness and possessiveness for tav as an ascendant but it’s not the same feeling as the love he felt before. He remembers that he loved them, and might label his current feelings as love, but deep down even he knows he doesn’t anymore. He loses much more as an ascendant than he gains.
I'm not pro ascendant, but I will say that I think what you witness during his Ascendant route are his last bits of humanity/autonomy disappearing. He's still transitioning into whatever new monster he has become, so a very small part of him is still there but is dying. I think that what little love he had for you pre-ascendance is why you still get to witness the awkward childish reactions that would otherwise become very unbecoming of a vampire. Like when he tells you he was going to try with you, he means it as much as a creature like him can be genuine about anything. When you say you liked him as he was and he genuinely seems confused by that comment, it's what's left of the old him and his insecurities. How viscerally he reacts when you say Cazador even though he's "free" from his past. So sure there might be the tiniest spark still there, but it's going to disappear as his powers manifest. And honestly I only think they gave us even that much to justify why he's nerfed of all the powers he should have.
But honestly go ahead with your domtop fantasies girlie's, I get it.
Casual reminder for the spawn supporters: Most Ascended fans don't care about the dissertations. (Edit: I'm a switch fan or love both Ascended and Spawn for different reasons, but the essays are getting old AND annoying. Three months post-release and y'all still shaming people on what they like and how they enjoy tgeir fantasy in a fiction world with a fictional man...)
Additionally, he doesn't love in a healthy way, but he does "love" in the vampire way. Because, when you become a true vampire everything becomes twisted and darker. Meaning love turns to possessiveness and obsession. Fear heightens so he is 10(0)x more controlling. Drunk on power? Sure. Now, red flags aside, if you look into the sourcebooks, you'll note that Ascended Astarion didn't do the true spawn transformation but the bride/groom version which is love in a vampire sense.
Nonetheless, I wonder if spawn fans ever get tired of writing essays.
Besides, Astarion is more of Strahd 2.0 in the making than Cazador 2.0. Let's be real here.
I fully agree!🔥
yeah cant we not love all astarions, spawn, ascended, even goose alike? hes just great
Yup. If something happens, and ast cant revive you, he will just go full on strand and fk every living thing that looks like you. 😂😂 youre a freckled blonde and short? Every short blondie with freckles will be fked in your name 😂😂😂
@@covertgoblinLike, I see the red flags. But, Spawn Astarion is not dark fantasy material. I love me some dark fantasy vampire drama. When I need healthy relationships and growth, I'm obviously not binging Ascended Astarion content
I think ascended is capable of love unlike true vampire or spawn as he is a new breed
AA is heavily traumatized but the Spawn version should be too, the problem is trying to pass spawn as healthy the day after cazador's demise, not ascending solved all my trauma thanks, I'm happy now. Both versions would need years to start resolving this feelings. When they give players those two finales = spawn is pretty much doomed forever but happy somehow x ascended is masking his feelings, possessive, suddenly into bdsm? and corrupted by power, it's an unfair comparison
He is literally written to be a failure of breaking the cycle of violence with Cazador. If you just like Ascended Astarion sure, but you're a thing he keeps, not an equal, the idea he sees you as an equal is delulu 😂
This video is not implying that he sees Tav as equal
@durdom_lily it says he really loves you, if he will never view you as an equal he doesn't actually love you
@@KP-wj9ch he loves them, this is a vampire love and cannot be equated with 21 century human moral sensibility, its like forcing dracula to act like a goodie two shoes modern man
@@seliamila1005what is bro yapping about
@@fart1745 I'm talking that people shouldn't expect a freaking vampire lord to have the same morality as your common 21st suburban dweller
"One drop of my blood" soooo Tav is just a regular vampire then? so why is he calling her a spawn? Oooh fine, I'll bloody do a Redeemed Dark Urge Astarion Romance Run
You know what, i wrote this "little" essay and decided to leave in some treads on Asc Astarion, because I got triggered and annoyed by this drama enough to feel like i need to share some thoughts about toxic vampire love thing in name of education for everyone. If you like it, feel free to repost it anywhere you want.
So, what this dark romance fantasy is about for me personally,(even though i prefer spawn romance, i absolutely understand the appeal of asc Astarion because honestly, i was all about this kind of romance during my childhood and teenage years, hardocore the Phantom of the Opera girl is here, inside your head 💀), and why it's also healing route for some players,and no, it's not about kinky vampiric banging.
1)A lot of people feel extremely worthless and insecure, lonely, like no one really cares for them at all. It's a very deep wound that hurts and it's difficult to overcome even in perfectly loving, healthy and supportive relationship with a good partner,and even with therapy. So fantasy about a vampire, being obsessed with you so much that he is ready to do absolutely anything just to be with you for forever is really comforting. Also, you don't have to think too much about your imperfections, because for him you like a center of his vampire heart.
Besides, you sympathise with him - it's like a selfcomfort mirror, i love this monster despite everything, so in a way, i accept myself despite any flaws i see in me.
2) Safety. When the world around you feel like a wilderness, full of monsters, it feels like only the most terrifying loving monster can protect you from it. He is powerful and protective, and i am so precious to him, that he will set the world on fire just so i would be safe.
3) Responsibility. As you may see, this kind of relationship have daddy issues vibes and codependency, and in real life, you can't just fully submit safely to anyone, I don't think i have to explain why it's a dangerous idea to seek this kind of relationships in real life. You have to stay a grown up independent person and seek safety for yourself without expecting someone to come and heal all your wounds. But this is fantasy, so finally you can use this as a comfort fantasy with no fear about being taking advantage of, without shame to be called childish and etc.
4) Independence. Spawn ending is very terrifying for anyone who has issues with feeling safe and independent, because some of us prefer violent power fantasies over "we have each other and that's all that matters", second of all, this ending also has some shady co-dependency undertone to it that can be triggering for some people. I love Spawn Astarion a little bit more more than Asc and yet my heart stayed absolutely broken after running away from the sun scene, and i hate that he is so dependent on Tav. Larian owes me some emotional refund after this.
5)SA trauma: it wasn't even seen as a possibility for healing way by writer, but it is for some.Asc Astarion feels like he is the most powerful creature in the world,and he is fully controlling everything that happens between him and Tav,so finally, it's a kind of situation where there is no chance of him being abused again. It's one of the reasons why some people become Doms in BDSM dynamic relationships: finally, full control of the process and a partner, who trusts then enough to fully submit, trust issues is also big deal in Astarion story of healing. I find idea that that only Subs can enjoy Asc Astarion a little bit naive. Because,well, some news for you: Doms like it too because they understand why he is so eager to be a top :D
Unrealistic, not the healthiest way? Probably! But this man and this love is not real anyway.
Yes, i think many of us, especially folks who went through therapy and a lot of self reflecting are already aware that it's basically romanticized version of narcissistic obsession and in real life this is creepy, but it's not real, it's a fantasy. People use BDSM to heal, romance books and all other forms of art to deal with their inner demons and it's absolutely normal. Even if someone is blind to see what is wrong with Asc Astarion, I highly doubt that toxic bucket of shame and aggression are able to help see anyone problematic side of things. Do you know who is usually up to romanticize toxic dynamic in romance? Victims of abuse. In real life, if you just scream and yell at any poor girl/boy/whatever about how stupid they are for believing that their abusive partner really loves them, people will either break down and cry or tell you to f#ck off and they will have every right to do so, but they won't see what's wrong with their partner,in whom quite often victims of abuse see their only source of love and safety in life.
Hells, I am so sick and tired from this "white cloak knight saviour from cycle of abuse" toxic flood in this fandom. If you really want to educate people - do it with extreme care and compassion. Real life healing is not working like it's with Astarion in the game,few right dialogs and boom, dude is on the right path.
It takes enormous amount of patience and love, be kind to one another, and stay safe, darlings. Being toxic on Asc fans you are not helping anyone, you just hitting your superiority complex button in your @ss.
/Sorry for the wall of text, sorry for grammar, English is not my first language/
I’m not a victim of abuse but I wholeheartedly agree with everything in this post. I wish I could give more thumbs up and that people would be kinder to each other because the toxicity from spawn fans is f’cking exhausting.
@@NWard1210they are so desperate to heal others with their lethal dose of poison, it's hilarious
100%
@@another_one_0Lmao, you're literally no different from a rabid Spawn Astarion fan. You're just on the other side. Honestly, chill out and let people have their opinion.
@@unfortunatecircumstances8870 the differences is that it is spawn fans who often belittled people first over their choice, so of course people reacted out of annoyance
It can be both. Most ab-sers do love their victims in some capacity - or at least they think they do. Doesn't mean they're not ab-sers.
If he really loved Tav, he wouldn't require them to become his spawn in order to be with him. But he breaks up with Tav if they refuse, which is pretty toxic.
I think his 'character progression' is kinda resetted and a slightly bigger hill, we climbed up and built trust and feelings for him and he even admitted he wanted you to fall for him for protection then he fell for you as well by accident because we are breaking through barriers with him and will just have to do again
Proof that lawful evil can still care for people
And he also mentioned that you will feed from each other, meaning he will allow you to feed from him, makes you a true vampire and not a spawn.
He’s lying. Cazador promised the same thing to his servants but that was never going to happen.
not spawn astarion romancers attacking ascended astarion enjoyers in the replies like he's an actual person or something 💀 like... over a game character? really?
I understand what you imply. The thing is many see themselves in Astarion and many see themselves in their own characters. For many his story hits on a very personal level. People get invested because they got told a story they can relate to. Even uf Astarion is zeros and ones. He creates far more and stirs peoples emotions.
@@lisdraconis2212 It's completely fine to relate to a character, but at some point people gotta understand that they ARE NOT the character themselves, therefore whatever people do with the character is not a personal offense towards them. Too often people think they and the characters they love are one and the same that they'd attack real people for how other people treat the character as if what's being done was done to them personally. That's not how it works.
自己爱咋理解咋理解呗有啥纠结的……我写同人两种都会写，当做不同的平行宇宙不就行了……
Yeah I keep thinking this, but they also dont explicitly say it, and it makes it seem like you are still just a spawn. Or maybe he just wants you to think that so you will "behave." I dont know. I have found it very confusing they kept it so vague.
Use detect thoughts on him he gets all disopointed in Tav because you choose to become a vampire
There’s two takes to that.
It can also mean that he’s sees himself as inferior to you and you’re degrading your own position to be with him.
By my MC choosing to turn and be with him, I’m telling him he’s worth it.
@NWard1210 I love your comment gave me some new found insite
@@davidson6738 lolz you are so funny, run along now, my dear 😊
OH SHIT ILL USE THAT “your perfect before.. it’s hard to improve” now just need to look for someone 😢
Mmmmmmmm. Look I love Astarion as much as everyone else, but ascended Astarion just. Gives me bad vibes. Even when he's being "sweet" and "nice", it comes off as more of him fawning over an object, a possession, and not an equal and a partner. Maybe that's just my own past trauma being triggered, but I just can't get behind it.
Ascended Astarion is typical low humanity vampire from WoD. He of course loves Tav/Durge, but in a dark/twisted way.
He's lying, one drop isn't factually enough in lore. Its just enough so Tav can walk in the daylight. Ascended Astarion has possessive love for Tav not anything true, they're just an object of power to him. In cannon, he would still be able to control Tav.
I may be wrong, but I believe Larian confirmed that Ascended Astarion acts differently based on how you play. If you're more good, he's not as evil.
Even if there is a chance he can’t force anything on Tav/Durge, his ability to love was replaced with obsession. So there is deffinately a feeling but I don’t think it’s positive one 😂 I prefer my Tav to have one long life as a normal drow with him and then hope he will find happiness with someone (there’s always „find a cure for vampirism” path, you’ll never know what might come to their heads) than be a „pet” for a guy that already treats her like a posession. Buddies? Totally. Lovers? Nope.
“One drop ✨” as if it’s that much 😭🖤
For me, i prefer ascended astarion cuz it just feels like what a vampire romance should be - its never meant to be anything "healthy". They are dark creatures that are evil aligned after all😅 so it seems a bit unfair to compare this to real irl relationships like some have done in the fandom. Cuz lets be real, almost all the companions are more or less walking red flags lol
Maybe im overthinking this...but if he remains a spawn, tav even if elven races live substantially longer, will age and die eventually. And who gets to witness it and cope with that alone, no longer having the power to change that? Astarion. He may be free and himself...but i doubt cazador is the only vampire lord out there. If others found out what astarion did, they would see him as a threat - vampires being the paranoid creatures he claim they are. So while hes free, i dont think he will exactly be safe for very long. And Tav would be dragged into it as well. A sweet headcanon post-game would be maybe them finding Elminster and asking him to cast Wish and return Astarion to his mortal self? Maybe they can live a normal life? I think that'd be a sweet prospect.
Ascended tho? Whether its vampiric corruption or simply because he has the pompous attitude of someone with power (that level of pomp isnt all that uncommon for characters in similar situations), he has an eternal companion, still have insecurities (maybe hes afraid that outwards displays of that would make him look weak and an easy target?), the power and resources to be truly free and strong enough to deal with those that may wish to threaten or harm them. (Other vampire lords etc) Which is why I honestly dont see why or how its a bad thing?
Okay so I will say first and foremost because this is the most important bit for me - your take is valid IMO and you should 100% play the game you want to play. I have a different take, but I'm sharing it because it's a public space and I find different opinions interesting and assume you do as well otherwise you'd be playing your own game instead of engaging in the comment's section on someone else's video.
My stance is that it comes down to which one you pick. The spawn romance isn't a "vampire" romance because spawnstar isn't a "vampire" he's a person. Ascended, he loses that personhood. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is the personal choice part, but pre-ascension he literally tells you he wants to be seen as a person and if you conclude act 3 and he remains spawn he relishes the chance to have a relationship with "a partner, an equal."
@bearhugzfam649 fam your stance is equally valid.
Imma be real, i havent gotten past act 2 on any playthrus...and with all the recent bugs with the game and broken astarion kisses, likely wont for awhile. Yes hi i spoiled this for myself 😂😂😅
But what I do expect is playing this game many many times to see all the many endings not to mention origin stories on top of that.
I will most certainly have a good durge x spawnstarion one because i think it makes sense. And its, at least in my head, wholesome af and both of them end up being super relatable to each other. And who knows, my stance might change when i actually get to it playing and not spoiling it for myself on youtube lol.
Based on all the anne rice vampire novels that im addicted to tho, im definitely currently leaning towards ascended as my "true headcanon" so to speak. Esp if its his origin story. Again...i havent gone past act 2 so hey, maybe my stance will change when i get to it myself when they address some current issues and bugs in the game.
Really out of the fact at how vampires in true dnd lore would behave. They are inherently evil aligned creatures after all😅
That and i suppose im also thinking aboit the whole "doing something i want in the moment" vs "doing something i might not want atm but is a great long term investment" lol yeah definitely overthinking 😂😂😂
But i will say...the origin ending without tav for spawnstarion? That broke my heart. (Hahaha laughs in spoiling it for myself some more) he was free sure...but it just feels like hes almost back to where he started. To me that little hugging himself and rocking back and forth thing behind those crates broke my heart 😢
@@TomoMomoDomo nah you're not overthinking it, the team REALLY put a lot into Astarion, a lot of subtly and nuance, he's 100% the character you can "overthink" completely validly lol. Enjoy your zealous dissections! I do
@@bearhugzfam649 fr fr
definitely saving my durgexstarion playthrus for last xD
i'm positive that someone confirmed that the dev notes state that he's lying about giving tav his blood, he even refers to you as his spawn in the very next sentence, not as a true vampire. so, if that's the case, not sure how him lying & actually just making you into his spawn/slave with no free will & no ability to ever disobey him in any way whatsoever for the rest of eternity proves anything good about his feelings for you AT ALL, but ok?
source?
Almost. He is lying about turning Tav into a true vampire. It's a devnote in the script about the romance epilogs.
Player: "And you promise you'll make me a full vampire soon?"
He says: "My darling, of course! I want nothing more." Devnote says: Overly sincere. He doesn't really mean it.
@@Louves192 where is this published, whats the source
@@Louves192 even WITHOUT the devnotes, there's a few things that people who defend this ending always seem to overlook:
1-tav conveniently can't remember what happened after the bite, & we NEVER see astarion giving tav his blood, which could have EASILY been included in the scene. all they have to go on is what astarion SAYS happened (& of course the fact that they have absolutely no new abilities afterwards, beyond the vamp bite that spawn astarion always had)
2-& this one is glaringly important, before the bite, astarion literally SAYS "i will kill your mind".. he COULD have said, 'i will kill your body' or just 'i will kill you', he specifically says 'i will kill your MIND'.. he's blatantly telling them that he's about to erase all sense of self the player ever had, & completely strip away the player's free will... just like cazador did to him....
but all the people calling on 2e lore about brides or whatnot & applying it to 5e, always seem to forget this little bit that is dialogue in the ACTUAL game which could have easily replaced 'mind' with 'body' but didn't, or could have showed astarion giving the player his blood, but didn't....& i think those are very deliberate & telling choices on the part of the writers
at the end of the game you're literally standing right there under the sun and nothing happens to you. if you were a regular spawn youd be turning to ashes just like spawn astarion. i dont get why this is being discussed.
i dont understand whats the point of nitpicking everything to prove your bias with arguments based on pure speculation. no ones asking to be convinced by you, and you are not convincing anyone but the people who already agree with you, so whats the point of this really?
It's really funny that not a single Asc Astarion fan is claiming that it's a healthy kind of love and absolutely ok with admitting it's basically a vampiric obsession, but every spawn fan is still here to save us all from "omg abuse cycle, how dare you to like this ending and be happy with it"
Dark medivial fantasy, you know, and a fitting dark romance ending for those who into this, jeez, and girlies created so much toxic drama from that,i guess spawn fans possessive of a character not less than a vampire lord is in Asc ending, huh?😅
Thanks for the video
its funny how they dont realize having an "i can fix him" outcome is also unhealthy af and continue babying him. its sad that you cant really have a happy ending with him though... but its even sadder that some people dont realize you can like both endings and move on with your life lol
@@covertgoblin yeah, one of the reasons I can't fully enjoy both endings is that in a way it's still a co-dependence and even though there are a lot of monologues from Astarion about freedom in both endings, it's still feels unachievable for character to be truly free. Yet I find Asc Astarion at least making sense in terms of a character and story setting👹
I don't think it's even an obsession, he just sees you as a pet. The moment you refuse to do what he says/things between you don't go like he wants to be he will disregard you like trash. See: ascended astarion ending with karlach origin
@@nvtrna and if you disagree with him about killing other party members in Asc ending as Tav, he will go along with that.Why, if you are his pet and he has no reason to take your opinion in consideration? Where is the truth? In my opinion, Karlach ending is weirdly written, i mean, why all the sudden he forgets about her being fire girl, it makes no sense. It feels like last minute script ideas.
And most importantly, for every playthrough we have different versions of Astarion because we literally can't take in consideration all possible answers for all possible dialogues, it doesn't make sense for RPG game, yet for whatever reason we do analyse Astarion from this multiverse kind of perspective. So I would say that it's safe to say Asc Astarion is an absolute as$h0le in Karlach origin for sure(and he loses few braincells in asc process, lol).
@@nvtrnathe pet thing is a nickname and not that serious, he said it himself if Tav asked about it
This is your proof? Seriously? Look, just because someone "really loves you" doesn't mean they're not also abusing you. That is the lesson that was supposed to be learned here. If you challenge him and tell him you don't want to be his Spawn he shows his true colors and you'll see just how much of a monster he's become. Neil has outright said that Ascended Astarion is in no way shape or form a healthy relationship. Just because Astarion is nice now doesn't change the fact he's still the Master and Tav is his spawn-his slave.
Literally no one in this whole thread has said this is a healthy relationship, quite the contrary
This video is not a proof that it's a "healthy love", it's dark and twisted as it should be for the evil ending
It only bothers me that good ending is presented as healthy one,when it's actually quiet questionable outcome with the same co-dependency undertone to it
Stop projecting, the video doesn't even say anything about it being a healthy love. It's literally just called "Proof Ascended Astarion really loves you" which you indirectly concurred with by saying "Just because someone 'really loves you' doesn't mean..."
So you agree? So you agree that he could "really love" Tav and still be abusive?
I don't see many ascended fans deny that his love is twisted and distorted, but it's there. We don't claim it to be a healthy kind of love, not even true love. Sure there are ascended fans who insist that angle, but they're in the minority. The majority of spawn fans however... Seems so hellbent on proving their moral superiority.
dude you are unhinged, you are everywhere hating on ascended video, get a job boo
@@aibhe i see ascendant romance as true love albeit darker, a more serious version of morticia and gomez with even more blood involved, i'm tired of uwu misunderstood vampire
It’s so funny to me that when he turns you into a spawn he’s like “in the future I’ll let you drink my blood but we need to ease you into it before you’re a true vampire.” But then bro can’t go two seconds before giving you his blood and telling you that you’ll drink from each other often. The game still treats you like a spawn but it’s actually not specified how much blood is needed to go from spawn to true vampire… so I think it’s funny to imagine him saying all that but then ending up not even waiting to fully turn you 😭. Also it proves the people who say he’s lying and won’t ever let you out from his control or have his blood wrong. (Both endings are great for their own reasons to me and the infighting and trying to prove one ending is so much worse is so silly just let people enjoy things)
He could also completely lie about giving this drop of blood
nah bruh yall let a traumatized person feed into his insecurities and forced him to continue the centuries long cycle of abuse he's been caught in. every other character has a pretty clear "good" and "bad" ending for them, so I don't know why some Astarion fans have deluded themselves into thinking he's the only character where both endings are equally as good, ESPECIALLY if you compare his dialog between asended and not ascended.
Like cool, if you want to pursue an evil playthrough and enjoy fucking up a traumatized person for the sake of a good story, all the power to you. But let's not pretend they're both "equally good". Equally well written? Yes. Equally interesting? Sure? But equally GOOD? LMAO
You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You don't get to fuck up a traumatized person for the sake of your sexy vamp smut and then also get the same level of intimacy or genuine love from a playthrough where your character actually cares for him and not the power or sex appeal he has.
That's why he can't even bring himself to look you in the eyes during the ascended sex scene, but yall STILL wanna delude yourselves and believe that this traumatized person that you prioritized power over healing for, who CANONICALLY cannot feel love for you any more once he's gone full vampire, is just as happy, healthy, and in love as he would be in a non ascended run.
@@keppakappa5033idk where this “vampire smut” comment came from but a lot of people who chose the ascended ending don’t even romance him or simply think it fits better narratively with their playthrough or are asexual irl or are even abuse survivors themselves and I think it’s in pretty bad faith to lump everyone into that category.
Also I said that both endings were great as in the writing not that they were both good morally. But also as someone who has romanced him through both endings, he does look you in the eyes during both sex scenes so I’m unsure where you got that from..
agree, the thing that made me want to try a vampire lord route was seeing how miserable his spawn ending really is if you substract tav from the ecuation i couldnt let him keep physically suffering and feeling pathetic, the "vampire smut" i really couldnt care less tbh i just gave in to his whims. also he will be bitter if you dont ascend him as you can see in the epilogue if you break up with him and he will hold that grudge for a while so its ridiculous to go shaming people for choosing a different ending imo
@@keppakappa5033it's not that a big deal, Cazador is dead and that is all what matters plus Astarion get all the power, don't assume how people see abuse survivor or dealing with their abuse over a damn vampire Twink from bg3 that's unhinged
Exactly!! You do drink his blood even if it was one drop. Plus my Durge will just bite him randomly just show him who really is in charge around here 😂
He definitely still loves you, ascended astarion still has a heart, at least at this point. However the power is corrupting him fast and his love for you is already twisted by obsession and a need to control. He feels he has to exert some control over you or you're going to see him for the monster he is and leave him
Yeaaaaaaah but jokes on you (tav) because if i read it correctly, the split needs to me mutual and i doubt one of them would agree to it xD
Tbh I never saw these scenes as true love like yes he’s nice and he cares for you you can tell but it just felt wrong like he thought he was better then me
I am in constant pain being in this fanbase because not only am I an Ascended Astarion fan but a Cazador fan. :,) I don't want to kill my evil meow meow
He sure doesn't show any love toward Karlach when you play as her when it comes to the spawn process.
I've promised myself to send this comment if I see the point "circle of abuse" again.
The theme of the abuse circle is only in the crowd. Author Stephen Rooney did not dictate his character's theme and how it should be understood. But there's something that he said:
"Newbon and Larian Studios writer Stephen Rooney didn't want Astarion to be interpreted as simply the 'traumatized' character, Newbon said. They wanted him to be as complex and layered as a real person. Trauma was simply one part of his story, yet it informed many of his behaviors"
People's desires and motivation do not end or begin at their trauma. Why should Astarion only have a circle? He may have a line of his desires and ambitions bigger than his trauma.
Maybe an evil ending, evil because Astarion is too Astarion for that kind of power is just dangerous. For everyone except Astarion and Tav, who accepts his evil disordered mess, which always has been.
And goodness is altruistic.
Also, based on this.
The evil ending shows his darkness in blood.
But it's not a bad cartoon where everything is black and white. That's why people like the theory about the bride, because that's where we learn about the concept of vampires in DnD and their weird feelings. Van Richten's Guide to Vampires - Relations between Vampires
Neil did such a great job voicing the Ascended Astarion, like, it's gorgeous. Now some people don't understand the thing - it’s ok, but pushes-hate-mocking-judge - it’s not ok.
It's a wonderfully deep, delicate work illustrating the power dynamics from a vampiric Dark Lord. Deeper than sexual fantasy, because Astarion himself is deeper. There's an incredible amount of care and so many feelings for a genre that is apparently not for everyone at all. "He has no feelings" - Neil showed dark feelings Ascended with genius power. And the fact that someone is so afraid of it (and that's ok) proves even better what a brilliant thing it is. Dark Fantasy - people don't go there for health. They go there for something wild, complex and fresh.
Imagine you're sitting by the fire, getting high, and someone opens the door with their foot, rushes into the room and starts judging you. "Not-healthy-true-love", you mean, dude, you've got the wrong door. I just finished carving the grove and Astarion enjoyed it. The fairytale door is to the left. Morality lecture hall to the right. The church and talking about souls are on the other block. Out the back, the grass, is green, or a tree, touch it.
I guess I finally realized the reason why I get hit by the words of aggressive- pushing (important clarification)-spawn-fans. Some is not just don't see it, stomped into the dirt. And not philosophical dirt, even. These spawn fans have made me so edgy and hardcore stans of Ascension that Astarion dances a twist in my game.
Well decadence and all that has been criticized by moralists since the beginning of decadence. Things don't change. I'm already coming to the road of humility. I just hope Larian doesn't abandon their weirdo-kiddo.
What also people are missing is that Astarion in evil playthrough is basically whole different person, it makes no sense to compare his development with good/bad playthrough
When you go full evil,all this thing about cycle of abuse is somewhere in the background and hits differently
It's the thing with RPG, characters rather exist in different universes, you are not supposed to analyse him from all options at once
But i guess some people are just too entitled to their perception of reality to comprehend that our collective experience of this story can be so different from one another
@@another_one_0 The thing is, in my good run through, I saw that man was such a mess. I saw that line, too.
Well I have no problem with the path of goodness. My Tav is often good. Astarion goes to camp sometimes. I don't think Astarion needs to be fixed or any ending ruins him.
I just look at Ascension as an extension of his own dark desires and qualities and: okay.
(I'll probably delete this comment at some point because I'm a shy)
@@alexandradel9712 hm, well, yeah, but i mean, if you go full good, helping him with the ritual kinda feels like ruining both Tav and him, becoming villains together or going into full angst,i guess?
i am not implying that he becomes something completely different after the ritual, for me it feels like he becomes extreme version of himself in act 1, but it's only my view on this
It's so annoying that we have this toxic flood inside the fanbase because i really love both sides of story yet i feel like i can't criticise spawn ending because of quite rose tinted glasses take on this ending from spawn fans,but also i can't enjoy my vampire lord content without coming across this never ending bullying
I started participating in this debates now with toxic spawn fanbase out of principle, you know: you don't want me to be comfortable and enjoy my content, than you shall not be comfortable here too👹
@@another_one_0 In my case, my Tav is chaotic neutral but good leaning I suppose. For the most part, she's neutral but she tries to help when she can as long as it doesn't harm her and her friends/companions. And I chose to ascend Astarion on that playthrough because my Tav is quite naive when it comes to love and she loves hard that she would literally do anything to see him happy, would give him everything he wants. That's why she didn't force him to sleep with her in act 2, and ever since she sort of vowed to respect his choices and decisions. So both these feelings, intense love and her vow to respect his decision eventually culminate in letting him ascend, not knowing that this new power, as much as it's what he wanted, would twist him from the inside. It's a tragedy and they're doomed together and she knows it, albeit too late. Still, she loves him, and there's no way she would abandon him or turn her back against him. She vowed to stand by him and respect his decisions, so as long as he didn't cast her aside, she's willing to do anything. He jumps, she jumps.
That's why she stayed and let him turn her into a vampire as this is the only way she could really stay beside him forever instead of dying of old age and leaving him. It's tragic because not only her love ends up corrupting him, his desire to gain power to protect both him and her ends up corrupting her as well. They both pursued power for each other's sake only to end up losing themselves in the process. My Tav, once willing to help others, now only does so if it benefits her cause (defeating the brain). She's not as corrupted as he is though, and sometimes acts like his anchor (I can just imagine her persuading Astarion from time to time so that he won't end up as bad as Cazador, and he'd comply because hey his happiness is linked to his vampire bride). I like the epilogue where it's implied that all they do for the most part is throw parties and travel all over Faerûn, occasionally committing evil here and there.
@@another_one_0 Well, about ruining Tav and him - no, I never understood it that way. Tav may be good, but my Tav is strange. We're just having fun and will be traveling - Astarion allows it, which is good. That's what the epilogues that weren't finished will be like.
That vampire book is what makes it so good, it tells you how things can be. It's a very chaotic and dangerous journey of vampire love. My thing. People really don't want to see that path in Lorde from the game - but why not? There are a lot of things that show it - that's where the fire starts, everyone wants to prove aggressively "it's not love and you're a dellulu and dare not say anything but fanfic&headcanon". Because they decided canon is "it's not love". (he's imaginary, he doesn't love) They were writing a romance. Astarion loves - love-vampire-style, I mean. But somebody's got the wrong door, I guess.
The fandom is just... Larian have started a new SteLena-DeLena, Edward-Jacob, peace won't come. Or only in time maybe.
I am here to agree with you 😊 great video! There are some very good comments analysing why ascendant Astarion still loves OC, even if it is twited vampiric love.
He doesn't love anything any more and can't care for anything. It's all just obsession now, he's gone
nah patch 5 confirmed ascended astarion loves duge/tav
@@seliamila1005 how?
I was wondering if he'd ever let Tav have his blood when I saw that first scene in game.
Пересмотрев несколько видео с попытками "отбелить" вознесённого Астариона, показать, что я могу ошибаться, я поняла, что чаша моих весов немного пошатнулась. Но моё мнение не изменилось. Что-то внутри шепчет, что я права, что вознесённый Астарион совсем потерял себя (которого начал открывать), что теперь он стал 100% актёром, он теперь чистый манипулятор. Искренне ли он любит ГГ? Не уверена. Он поддался страху и ужасу, став тем, кого убил. Специально оставляла его вознесение на десерт перед финальной битвой, чтобы посмотреть что будет дальше. Моя ГГ осталась с отродьем-Астарионом, чтобы вместе найти способ выйти ему на солнце. Да, грустно, но зато это был тот, в кого я верю. К счастью и сожалению Ларианы не вставили в игру волшебные пилюли, решающие проблемы.
He doesn't if you breakup before refusing to be turned and wait a day and talk to him again and say he doesn't know what love is anymore or something like that he explains how he sees love, its very very twisted and he says he would've just used you until he was satisfied and he respects you for saying no and that was your best option 😂, not just he becomes a full vampire that in dnd are all evil he is an full vampire after q demonic transformation 😂 he doesn't have any good left in him you would just be a puppet he becomes way worse than cazador
I need helpppp.Should I ascend him?or should I stop him from doing that?
Because:
If I ascend him,I heard that his personality changes and he will get arrogant
But if I interrupt him,he hates me after wards an leaves my party
Is it possible if I interrupt his ascending,that he won't hate me afterwards etc. Or is it not possible?
(What is the better choice?)
you can stop him by persuading him right off the bat, if you choose to persuade him he wont leave the party :)
or you can let him ascend if you want, but his personality does change so if it's your first time playing then probably stop him
@@covertgoblin okay Tysm!
@@covertgoblinbut if you persuade him,isn't it like manipulating?:00 (and can I still romance him? Sorry for asking but I have the same problem as the other person!xD)
@@amanekinmemes6243its more like deciding if you want to validate his fears of being powerless by granting him power/status or if you want to aid him and convince him he doesnt need it and hes fine the way he is
@@covertgoblin okay!thanks!:))
I've been so worried about asending him, I mean I tried it and as soon as he said Tav was waiting for his command that was it I went stright back to him being my sweet baby.
Ascended astarion can’t “love” he has no soul. He can be possessive and obsessive that can be mistaken for love
Don’t ascend him then 😊 I personally love his more domineering side, different strokes for different folks and all
He has a soul, there's never been any canon statement that said he has no soul
@@seliamila1005 the game doesn’t have to spell it out for you lol. Full vampires don’t have souls in bg3 you get that information through notes. And without a soul you can’t love. It becomes something twisted.
@@NWard1210 I’m not but just clarifying he doesn’t. Also dev notes state he’s lying when he says he’ll turn you into a true vampire. Not love.
@@Xxsorafan he may not turn you into a ‘true’ vampire but he does make you his bride / groom 🙂
Also, Astarion kind of flies in the face of the lore because he’s not a true vampire himself anymore; he’s an ascended version. Who knows what he’s capable of (including the ability to feel some sort of love, even if it’s a little chaotic).
NO 😭 NO HE DOESN'T PLEASE STOP GIVING ME HOPE
Can someone explain how this actually work?
To ascend from a spawn to a vampire, the spawn needs to be granted its sire's blood. Astarion turned Tav, and then gave them his blood. That must mean Tav is not a spawn anymore, but everyone acts as if they are.
Also how could've Casador's spawns eat rats if Casador forbid them from feeding on thinking creatures and as far as we know due to Speak with animals, all mammals in DnD are thinking creatures.
Not sure abt the first but maybe for the second one casadors probably doesnt consider pests as thinking creatures.
According to dnd lore, the specific way Astarion turns Tav, is how a vampire bride(/husband/spouse) is created. They get more perks than spawn, but they are still under their creators control.
The ritual consists of draining the person's blood to the point of death then, right before they die, the vampire gives them a taste of their blood. (careful not to give to much, because it would throw the bride into a fit of insanity.) After that they fall into a coma and wake up a vampire bride.
A regular spawn is just bitten. To become a vampire, they are not drain of their own blood and drink a specific amount of a vampires blood.
@@dramasbomin do you have a source for the thing about being under their creators control thing? im just interested to keep reading about it
@@covertgoblinye im confused too. Cause a lot of ppl also say that spawns are controlled not brides, that brides are somewhat equal in every way to the vampire that created them. They share the same power and lifespan as their husbands. Some say Brides have their own autonomy and maintain their human functions but need blood too. Im so confused rn, the lore is all over the place. I wish we get a dlc to expand on everything and that larian clears up things for us.
It’s harder because Astarion is an Ascended living Vampire, so that’s different. And he turned her using the powerful Bride process, not the Spawn process. Giving her power, protection and keeping her as much like her mortal self as he could. Plus he says he’s going to be sharing future powers and abilities… the Ascended couple should be something very unique…