10% Ballistics Gel Comparison Differences Explained - Clear vs FBI Brown Ballistic Gelatin
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- Опубліковано 9 кві 2021
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As an author and consultant in the field of penetration mechanics, I am pleased to see that more people are documenting the issues that plague the use of the Clear Ballistics Gel product.
There are only two factors that produce the dynamic pressure that initiates and drives projectile expansion in a terminal ballistic test medium. They are 1.) projectile velocity and 2.) density of the test medium. If the density of the test medium is not close to that of human soft tissues (1.040 ± 0.020 g/cc), then there is no way that the test medium can accurately reproduce the expansion and resultant penetration depth of a test bullet.
The density of human skeletal muscle tissue is 1.045 g/cc.
The density of human adipose tissue (aka: 'fat') is 0.945 g/cc
The density of properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin at 39°F is 1.037 - 1.043 g/cc.
The density of water is 0.9982 g/cc at STP.
The density of Clear Ballistics Gel is 0.824 g/cc.
The Clear Ballistics Gel product is between 13% and 21% less dense than human soft tissues. This is why Clear Ballistics Gel produces less dynamic pressure to initiate and drive projectile expansion. Clear Ballistics Gel produces less expansion and greater penetration than what occurs in any human soft tissue or either of the two valid accepted soft tissue simulants: 10% ordnance gelatin and water.
The take-away?
Clear Ballistics Gel is an inferior test medium which is incapable of producing test data that is representative of any human soft tissue or either of the two accepted human soft tissue test mediums.
Note: The effect that Buckeye Ballistics is describing starting at 4:50 in this video is called adiabatic compression. Adiabatic compression of a gas (or, in this case, the volatiles in the Clear Ballistics Gel) heats the gas rapidly past its ignition point and causes it to combust. This effect is what make diesel engines possible. The volatiles in the Clear Ballistics Gel are produced during the low pressure phase of the temporary cavity when vapor pressure is at its lowest and originate from evaporation of the paraffinic processing oil (Paralux 701) that is used to plasticize the VersaGel SEBS (styrene-ethylene-butylene-styrene polymer) which is the primary component of the Clear Ballistics Gel product.
Someone send this video to "Tools&Targets" 😂🤣
Seriously though you should go to his channel and explain this to him as he is accusing 22Plinkster of creating false results with CCI Uppercut because his results in clear didn't work.
Why not increase the standard testing concentration of clear ballistic gel above 10% to match human soft tissue?
@@Steven-gv1ke lol my 2 main sources also
Good info looking forward to seeing more gel videos thank you 👍
Very informative: Thanks for the upload and all of the useful information!
thanks, another great informative video
Police1 did a comparison and found the clear ballistics had more penatration than the 10 percent fbi and if I remember correctly the said with inconsistencies there was a mathematical way to know what a bullet would do in one gel vs the other.. im not starting anything just thought I'd share ..maybe they got a bad batch I do remember the bb calibration was off .. just found your channel and subscribed stay safe
It depends a lot on the bullet design, expansion, and velocities I've noticed- in regards to how it will react/compare in the clear block. As soon as I thought I had the stuff figured out, about 15-20% of the time I will get a result that is completely unexpected. Like one shot will penetrate 7 more inches than the previous for example, even with the same expansion. With the Knox block, no such surprises, far more consistant results. Thanks for subscribing.
thanks for the video
You gained my respect and a subscribe because how you keep it controlled and actually test your gel how your supposed to along with shooting more than one round unlike tactical tool or whatever that hillbillies name is.
😅 I know who you are talking about (not personally)
@@BuckeyeBallistics I would like to send some different ammo brands I haven’t seen on the channel for testing to you sometime soon if possible.
Appreciate the offer. I can't recieve ammo to a P.O. box and I don't give my personal address out online. I'm going to speak with my ffl transfer guy at some point (next time I see him) and see if he would be willing to recieve shipments like this on my behalf, because several people have offered lately. I'll update you if he says yes, but I am selective about what I test because unfortunately my gel test videos do not recieve that many views- thus why I only do them occasionally.
@@BuckeyeBallisticssince you do gel tests correctly, is there a way we can donate $$ and help you do more testing so we can ensure accurate results. Some of this ammo we use in life or death situations and some of us want to actually make sure it works properly vs looking cool in clear gel.
@Steven - For starters I have gel test playlists for .380, 9mm, .40, & .45. I have done a bunch of rimfire gel tests as well which are in the .22/rimfire playlist, and then there are a few random gel tests scattered here and there like shotgun tests and .30sc for example. So if you're wanting to see more, check out my playlists for those common calibers and maybe something you want to see is in there.
As for donating, the best way to do that currently in terms of actual money is to leave a "Super Thanks" donation which can be done on any of my youtube videos. The option to do so is a heart with a dollar sign button just under the video/video title off to the right side, and you may have to scroll the buttons over depending on your device to view and interact with it.
Lastly, partaining to the original post, I haven't been to my ffl yet since the original comment was posted- though I will likely be seeing him soon as I intend to have something shipped out this or next week...
I like to use the Clear Ballistics stuff because its easy to store and haul out to the range. But they are frightfully expensive to make, even if you remold your own blocks. I might have dismissed Knox gel a little too easily.
Just wait till you see the results in the next video! Even I was extremely surprised in the side by side difference in results...
@@BuckeyeBallistics If you compared 30 rounds in each, you might see the variance from shot to shot is more than the difference between one gel and the other. The FBI used pig gel because it was less controversial than shooting pigs or goats.
If you put 30rds in each, then you might as well be shooting pudding... I don't understand why everytime you comment on my channel, that you are always being contradictory; makes me wonder why you even bother watching my videos.
@@BuckeyeBallistics Yes. You'd need six different blocks of gel. Without 30 samples, your test sampling is too small. You do not understand because you do not want to understand. Is that why you deleted one of my comments? www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4976058/
I didn't delete any of your comments; I left them all out in the open for everyone to see how ridiculous you are being and what a know it all you think you are. As I just replied to you other comment, it's clear which one of us knows what they're talking about, and it isn't you. All you ever do is come on my channel and talk mad shit, yet your comment about the birdshot proves you don't know what you're talking about. I could go into extreme detail explaining to you the extreme error in your statement about birdshot not having any relevant difference in effect from 10 feet to 25 yards (like how much shot will hit or miss the target, penetration, at what velocity, and transfered energy as a result), but the ignorance of that comment alone and everything you have ever commented on my channel tells me you would just continue to argue with me which is a lost cause. As I replied to your other comment, I am done with your contradictions, especially since you just proved how ignorant you are. I don't know why you think you know all these things and think you know better than me because you clearly don't. But regardless, it's not worth my time or energy anymore to argue with an ignorant and arrogant old fool. So you keep thinking you know what you're talking about and I'll keep posting videos explaining truth and reality and that's the end of it. Expect no further replies.
I love me some ballistic gel test!
Here's a possible explanation for your organic gel woes. Do your gel powder baggies have the same net weight as what the FBI uses? I've read about the envelope baggies sometimes coming in short or light. That could lead to overly soft gel blocks that overrepresent penetration depths.
9 to 1 vs. 8 to 1 could be the result of heavier vs. lighter baggies.
I buy the Knox gel powder in 16oz plastic containers, not baggies. As long as the gel is calibrated (.177 cal bb at 590fps penetrates a depth of 3.25"-3.75"), then the block is within spec. I have however noticed 1 odd thing...
10% ballistic gel *should* mean a 9 to 1 ratio, i.e. 9 parts water to 1 part gel = a 10% mix. However, when I made this 9 to 1 ratio measured ounces to ounces, the calibration test resulted in overpenetration and the gel was also much more clear and fragile. Almost every recommended recipe I have seen is a 8 to 1 ratio or some other odd ratio that is not 9 to 1, so I don't quite understand why other than it must be because one is water and one is powder, thus the 9 to 1 ratio doesn't work because of this- I guess. I think perhaps the 9 to 1 ratio that works is in cups, not ounces; i.e. a measurement of volume and not of weight. Maybe.
I just ordered more powder last night for upcomming tests- I will be able to test this theory once I can measure the containers out in cups this time to see how many cups I get per 16oz container. Regardless, I have reliable recipes now that will be within calibration, even if I still don't understand the mathmatics behind it lol. Everyone gives a recipe, but nobody gives an explanation behind it which is why I'm still trying to figure it out...
Gel is a comparable test media, it doesn't simulate tissue. It is a way to have comparable results. rounds that penatrate 12-18 in in fbi gel are similar to rounds in tissue that do stop agressors
9-10 reforme for clear bg
The density between clear gel and actual 10% FBI ballistic gel that's properly calibrated is not the same so a hollow point designed to a certain density will not necessarily work in both mediums. However, the FBI did have their gel created to best replicate human flesh. Clear gel is about 17% less dense on average than human flesh or the properly calibrated 10% FBI ballistic gel.
Hi, how are you?
I would like to know some information about ballistic gelatin when removing it from the mold.
Before putting the liquid gelatin, you spray silicone in the right shape? goes to the fridge and then when you take it out of the mold it comes out normal? Or do you use another process to unmold?
I have heard of people using non stick spray like pam, but I tried that and it left little oil droplets all over the block which looked bad- also it made it greasy. If you let it cool down enough before pouring, you can line the mold with clear plastic/cling wrap, but then the little creases and wrinkles from the wrap will show in the gel. My molds are flexible plastic, so I just pour it straight in and when I pop it out I pull the sides away from the block to release the seal since they are flexible.
Have you noticed the prices of the Knox increasing past the price of the clear gel? Just made my own, and you were right, Knox is pork based, I was mistaken, and it cost me more than if I bought a clear gel.
I only use $60-$70 worth of knox to make both my blocks. My molds are smaller than the standard 16x6x6, but two of mine still equal more volume than a single 16x6x6 (12 quarts vs 9.8 quarts). Those clear blocks used to cost $126, but I see they lowered the price to $89 now. Are you sure you are mixing yours right? It's 18oz of knox to every 1 gallon of water. Use the link in the description on the previous video you came from to get the best prices on Knox gelatin 👍 I'm adding the link now to this video as well if it posts before you read this again...
@@BuckeyeBallisticsI’m not sure at all that I mixed it correctly lol 😅 everything I saw online showed around 16oz per gallon so that’s what I went with and I made my own shitty little form which used a little under 4 gallons. Ended up being something like around 6x8x16 or so. First time and not an even close to decent setup to do any of this but I wanted to try it 🤣. I’ll check that out, thanks.
You gotta do the bb calibration test to know if it's mixed right. I used to think it was 16oz per gallon of water too, but that ends up making it a little too thin- unless you cook it down long enough that enough water evaporates, then it might be fine. Either way, the bb calibration is the way to check and verify- .177 cal bb at 590fps at 10 feet +/- 10-15fps variance allowed. If in calibration, penetration will be within 2.95"-3.75". Less than 2.95" is too thick, over 3.75" is too thin. Good luck!
@@BuckeyeBallisticswell I don’t have a BB gun or a chrono to check fps, so I guess I’ll call it good 🤣. Thanks for the info tho. I appreciate it
@@donaldham308your results will not be accurate most likely if you don't check calibration. Also the block should be about 39 degrees when you shoot it. Keep it in an ice chest until you are ready. Bring a meat thermometer and set it out and let it warm to 39 degrees.
By the way, I recommend you get the ProChrono DLX chronograph. For the money, there isn't much better. It's definitely the most affordable quality chronographs.
The "explosion" you see is not because the clear is petroleum based. What you're seeing is cavitation from the rapidly collapsing cavity.
Same idea as with the pistol shrimp claw
Or you could consider the fact that I actually researched the answer before stating it, and that you are just speculating...
@@BuckeyeBallistics nothing says your research led to an incorrect conclusion.
Here is what's happening:
ua-cam.com/video/cp5gdUHFGIQ/v-deo.html
Explanation starts at 6 minutes, specific to cavitation/light at 7. I'm not saying that the gel is not at all burning, but the explosion is caused by the implosion described in the video, not as a result of the gel.
In short, just because it is flammable doesn't mean it will make a suitable fuel to cause an explosion like in a diesel engine.
It's possible that you're not seeing the same effect in organic gel because it is not behaving the same way.
@@BuckeyeBallistics TL;DR
If the explosion was caused by the dieseling effect on the gel substance itself, then you would not see that activity in the absence of a flammable substance.
Just to reiterate, I'm NOT saying that adiabatic compression leading to combustion of a small amount of gel is not occurring. I'm saying that it isn't the source of the explosion
I'm referring to the literal fireball that I have seen in slow motion footage of bullets being fired into the clear gel, and then the resulting smoke cloud exiting the entry hole. And the actual term for what is occuring is called sonoluminescense. The black smoke pours out because the gel is burning. Watch THIS video: ua-cam.com/video/fX4ODh1g4eM/v-deo.html
I have seen the smoke pour out in the same manner in my blocks several times, but never from the knox gelatin. The fireball is from the collapse, but the smoke is from the petroleum based synthetic gel burning after that event...
Nah he's right buckeyede
I read just the opposite. More penetration and less expansion in the clear ballistics.
I had mixed results once I started using the stuff in my videos side by side. Sometimes the results would completely flip flop. I can say though that my knox is consistant which I have reverted to using exclusively...
@@BuckeyeBallistics Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
You're doing valid, repeatable testing using the 10% ordnance gelatin. Keep up the good work!
Hey man, I normally like your videos but there wasn't any shooting and I got bored man!!
That's fine, I understand. Some people however will find this video invaluable and extremely insightful, which was my intended purpose behind it. I will post the video shooting the stuff Mon or Tues; we put all kinds of .380 rounds through it. Doing 9mm next and then .45. Hopefully you will like those!
@@BuckeyeBallistics yeah but it needs shooting too, not just talk
Noted. I had wanted to include that, but I needed the blocks shown to record the next video, so it wasn't an option. You have to understand that my resourses are limited since I pay for everything out of pocket. Now if I was sponsored and had 100 of these things laying around, that would be a different story- same goes for ammo. Maybe one day...
@@BuckeyeBallistics I understand, first and foremost thank you for making the videos.
My pleasure. I love doing it and the channel is growing slowly but surely. I just hope I can make a decent living of it one day as so many others have. Getting there...
There is no justifiable claim one represents flesh more than the other.
No but the brown one clearly does more closely represent it, as it is the FBI standard for such tests. You will see the vast diffefence between the two if you watch my next gel video where I shot the same rounds into each block...
@@BuckeyeBallistics Personally, I have heard all kinds of claims about gel. Once you have seen birdshot in an autopsy, you can never realistically assume gel has anything to do with human flesh. It just compares ONE round with ANOTHER round.
Birshot penetration is highly dependant upon how close you are because if you are extremely close, it almost behaves more like a slug than birdshot, because it is all grouped together. The difference in just a few feet makes a massive difference in how birshot behaves in both flesh and gel, so that's a terrible example to base any sort of comparison or analagy of off.
@@BuckeyeBallistics Anything less than 21 feet is extremely close. There is no massive difference between 10 feet and 25 yards.
@@BuckeyeBallistics The moment you claimed "the brown one clearly" does anything, your blind assumptions were showing.