Installing Complete Aftermarket Sheet metal and running into issues. 69 Firebird build episode 8
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- Опубліковано 25 гру 2023
- On this video we are test fitting the complete exterior structure with all the new aftermarket sheet metal on the 69 Pontiac Firebird when we run into fitment issues. I go over these issues and address some other fitment problems you will run into on your 1969 Chevrolet Camaro, Pontiac Firebird and most any other F-body car. I show how to adjust the doors with the fenders on the car and off the car and panel gap general sheet metal parts. We go over the major issues that plague most aftermarket bolt on parts including the hoods and front fenders and how I went about fixing the issue to aligning most of the sheet metal on this full restoration project.
#firebird #camaro #restoration #amd #dynacorn #musclecar
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I have been working with aftermarket parts for almost 30 years and every project has problems. The trick is to accurately define and correct the problem. If the project was just to replace a fender and it didn't fit, it would be easy to say the problem is the fender. But to replace every single piece of sheet metal, at the same time makes it very hard to have a good reference point! I am 60YO and still learning. Thanks for the great video.
You're welcome and thank you for the comment and feedback. I will say you are correct that replacing every piece of metal does makes it harder to hunt down an issue, but the secret here is when replacing everything you have a lot more adjustment as you can slightly move each piece a little bit to fix non major issues and really align all the aftermarket parts a little bitter most of the time.
My reference point was the rear deck filler panel ...it was basically the only thing left that was straight and intact.
@@jeffreypepple3198Usually I try and pick the rockers as my point of reference but nice if the deck filler is good I could see that really helping build around that piece.
I've heard that Dynacorn has problems with sheetmetal fitment. I'm surmising that AMD is better
If I have the ability to build another 69 firebird I would like to be able to try the AMD front fenders to see what I come up with.
You do a great job of explaining everything. I enjoy watching your builds.
Thank you very much it means a lot!
Finally someone that gets it. Few of these types of videos I have seen fall short with not using a measuring tape. You are doing good, I check all this and have seen many shops do un needed fixes, wrong area fixes.
I also take profile templates, often the flanges or an issue. Simple shrinker stretcher or cutting at the body line on the flange will help.
Also the aftermarket doors do not have the correct sweep from front to back. I have a Firebird and a Camaro in the shop, both new doors are at a higher sweep and more curved on top. The new inner structure is wrong. My fix was to use an original inner structure and reskin.
@@Salamancametalcraft Thank you very much for the kind words and the advice on the doors. I will remember that when deciding on choosing a door skin vs whole door on the next one.
This video is pure gold. You illustrate exactly how and why these aftermarket panels are NOT a bolt on fit. None of them are and I don’t care what brand. I will admit that AMD is typically a better stamped product overall, but this whole video shows in such detail just what it takes, and what we deal with when replacing panels and making body lines correct. I’ve never seen a better explanation in all my years of banging sheet metal. Well Done y’all. 👍🏻
Thank you very much!
Your content is great for our backyard restorations that seem mind boggling until a little direction keeps us moving forward.Appreciate your explanations in simple layman's terms .
Thanks a lot really great to hear it helps out
I love your discussions of what's going on and how you fix it. Cheers.
Thank you!
Excellent tutorial, didn’t realize how difficult perfection was! Thanks again.
I really appreciate the feedback and you watching.
Good Stuff, I'm glad your putting this kind of content out there, us amateurs greatly appreciate it.
Thanks a lot for the feedback and the kind words. I also am still trying to figure it out as I go along and learn everyday.
Really enjoyed the steps to help fine tune the gaps that might have otherwise gone in the close enough category !
Great to hear
Thanks for your videos. Give me the confidence and courage to start on my car.
Really appreciate you're comments and feedback, good luck on your build!
Excellent work verry profeshional
Thank you!
Excellent intel. Very well explained and the path forward identified. A 69 Firebird is such a beautiful platform, especially with that Trans Am hood. Great project Rick !
Thanks a lot I do really appreciate the feedback! I agree I think this is one of those cars that doesn't get enough credit on its style and really defined lines going all different directions. You really don't even see them all until you stare at it or down the sides of it for a while.
AMD comes to mind.
Actually AMD personally I feel has been some of the best fitting stuff I have installed. Of course there is always some flaws but all part of the game
AMD has been nothing but problems for us...
@@g.o.b.2558 What is your go too brand that you feel is better quality if I may ask? Also what kind of car are you building or type? I am just curious.
@carthageclassiccars Current projects are a 69 roadrunner and a 69 Charger. AMD was the go-to, but their quality control has gone downhill over the last few years, so now I do what I can with finding OEM, but we are open to trying any other suggestions. We also have a Chevelle, Duster, Firebird, Falcon, and some others in the future to get to.
@@g.o.b.2558 Ah ok, so far with the Mopar stuff I messed with the AMD parts I have honestly been really happy. I do agree the NOS or OEM replacement parts are awesome to have but most cars do warrant it, just like this firebird. Those NOS parts are best suited for a rare car that is trying to only replace a couple parts.
Very informative, thanks
You are welcome, thank you for watching and the comment.
Yet again, another excellent video!! Thanks!
You're welcome, thank you for watching and the comment!
Now that was a great video. I've tried to explain this process to ppl for years, a lot of them think that the new panels should never be cut. I've had these same issues with every brand of panel.
I have no issue with cutting them up to make em fit.
Hat's off sir 👍
Thanks a lot. Yes I hear that all the time and even hear other shops and owners say ill do the front end as its just the "easy bolt on stuff". Cutting and slightly modifying is by far the easiest route to fix some major issues and sometimes the only way to fix them.
Appreciate these videos
You're welcome, thanks for watching!
I have seen lots and lots of videos doing work like this. I have yet to see someone with an eye for perfection like you do.
Thank you very much I really appreciate it!
Thanks for the detailed explanation. This will help me a lot moving forward on my builds!
Thats great to hear you are welcome!
Thanks for showing and explaining the process of having the body marked up and checking gaps and sheet metal fitment. I look forward to the next video, Thanks.
Your welcome. I think the next couple videos on this car hopefully will be a little faster in pace since everything basically fits already.
Good detailed content thank you Rick
You're welcome!
This video is very timely for me. I am gapping panels on my f100 right now and can use all the tips I can get.
Thats great to hear if you don't finish your gapping in a couple weeks I am finishing up on two other cars in the shop and planned on doing a whole video on the gapping and fine tuning of them with different scenarios you might run into
@carthageclassiccars can't wait to watch that video!
You are good at your Craft!
Thank you very much!
Have never had a panel fit right out of the box,....always need to measure, fit,cut,repeat,cut, add some material,fit,...2 days later,..its close!😂
I have been lucky most of the time but your right there will be areas that need touch up and adjustment after its all said and done.
Thank you for the outstanding explanation and teaching how to do this. I appreciate how you take the time to teach and explain. Great job.
You're welcome and thanks a lot for the feedback!
Merry Christmas Rick! Looking forward to the video.
Thank you very much! Merry Christmas to you also. Thanks for the support.
excellent video
Thank you
nice explanation and good work
Thank you!
Real Deal Steel in Sanford Florida….best stuff on the market!
I looked over their stuff and it doesn't say where their panels come from, but they do list their 69 camaro body is all AMD metal.
Awesome
Thank you!
Awesome video Rick, I'm at this stage with my 67 Camaro, you opened up my eyes as to how to gap a little better, I have all AMD sheet metal for the front but my doors and SS hood are original, thanks for sharing, I hope you had a great Christmas...
Thank you and Christmas was good hopefully yours was also. Keep me updated how the aftermarket sheet metal fits on your Camaro. I have a feeling it might be a little bit better then the firebird stuff.
Wow I would have never imagined the fenders would be different from one side to another. Unreal. I was always warned to save as much original metal as possible and I am learning. But this video blew me away. It just goes to show you, you really need a good amount of experience (which is where you are the wizard) to build these cars perfectly. Really interesting video. But even with the Nova my friend warned me stay way from aftermarket fenders they dont fit at all. Watching this is incredible it truly is a masterclass. Love that your working with your family this is the best type of business in the world. What I like about your videos is your amazing attention for detail. Lot of guys (like me) are pretty crude just to get it on if the door closes great, gaps wont be great at times. But watching this is great it makes me believe i can do a better job as well. Great video!
Thanks a lot for the kind words Max. I think each build has its own route to go weather keeping or replacing. Obviously this car didn't come with much so there wasn't an option. Most that tell you are correct to keep the original parts because of stuff like shown in this video that you might run across, but sometimes the amount of patch work and repairs needed I have run across a "original butchered" part actually fitting worse at times. There is no 100% correct way to do each and every car so take your Nova and evaluate to your skillset and your individual build and I am sure it will turn out great.
The driver side is longer because to tooling is worn and allows metal to stretch more during stamping.
@@jayhilliard4365 I never even thought of that but actually that would make a lot of sense thanks for the idea.
The stuff that drives a guy nuts. But, it is repairable if you find the real problem. Sure hurts to start cutting up new panels, but, if that's what needs to be done.... Take a deep breath and go for it. Nice video. Thanks
Your are right I think that's a misconception to some as they assume a new panel has to go on a car the way it was shipped to them. I agree don't cut to soon take a step back and think about it but if you have to cut then cut away.
Great video. I’ve done some bodywork (pulling frames, panels etc) but you my friend are an artist. I bow to your skills.
Thank you that is very nice to say I do appreciate it!
I applaud you for getting the gaps close, but I was at a car show in Hershey Pa last year, every car was penalized, the judges all said, not one car from manufacturer every had perfect gaps, judge's are looking for factory built, restoration has 2 entities, original, and resto mod.
Hard to keep everyone Happy.
Thanks for the feedback but honestly I don't really care about classic car show judging at all. This car is 100% built for me and how I want it. I mean to start off its a firebird with a trans am hood not too worried about being factory correct. Same with everything I build the only person I care to be the judge is the owner and what they want. Too many people in this world are too worried about what everyone else thinks their car should be. I hope all those cars had the single stage on them also.
Fantastic vid Rick! When installing just about all aftermarket parts there’s a refinement.
I recently done a c/k truck. The bedsides were close.......I had a ton of work in em. The passenger fuel door was 3/4” higher....
Thank you I was wondering how the truck parts fitted as I haven't messed around with them as much as the car stuff.
Thanks for your video's working on a 72 Camaro just ordered a aftermarket radiator Support everything else factory Parts hopefully its not a major problem again great tips on old school Parts
I would say if nothing is lining up look very closely at that radiator support and just modify that piece as it sounds like the rest of the car was fitting well when removed. Good luck on your build keep us updated how it fits.
The way You keep ahead on what to do saves so much work! ( I find when I'm laying a stone the same method works!), While fixing one thing keep a look out for how it affects the next process in line .
Yes I could see how that message would translate in a lot of different tasks especially stone. Thanks a lot!
Having worked on older US made cars, even when new were built to a "different" standard 😉. Today we expect tighter tolerances.Thank You for the video 👍
You are welcome and thanks a lot for the comment as you are 100% right. These cars were never built like they are now for people to look at and "judge" the gaps and panel fitment. It makes it a little more challenging but well worth it when you nail a build.
I remember taking fenders off old Chevy trucks and finding numerous shims from the factory falling off when you took the bolts out 😅
@@Whateva67 Yes I have also seen some shims really stacked in what I feel might have been factory cars
Cheers , really see the pasion for this job , a solution for the problems and you do the best 🍻 , a lot of time and work for do the things right . And when that car is painted look real cool , i see cars with a lot of money but a poorly job , look like " $hitmetal work " 😅. Great job and congratulations and a happy new year 🍻 .
Thank you very much and yes I feel very lucky to be able to do something I really do love everyday.
Nice figuring on finding the issues. Nice gaps make or break a build as much as great paint. Yes, reproduction GM panels are usually off some. Reproduction Ford parts are usually worse than those. I have replaced panels on them all over the years. Mopar reproduction parts are the best as you stated. When I get my made in Taiwan, China, Mexico, Canada replacement panels, I measure them all out dimensionally to make sure it fits. Next I measure out where the style lines are, some are not stamped correctly. I have had Ford replacement panels that measured out within an eighth inch in every direction but the style line was totally incorrect. Kind of in the right spot but not even close to being a match as far as the shape of the style line. After waiting for the panels for each side for three months, it was maddening. I was able to make use of them but what a lousy part and additional unplanned work to use them.
Its been a little bit since I messed with the Ford stuff, thanks for the info and watching. Also very good advice on pre measuring stuff right out of the box. I could see how that would save a bunch of hassle down the road.
Lucky yong man 😎
Thank you
Great video with detail, shame poor parts creates all the extra work and expense to get back to what you paid for, got similar issues with a 67 C10, subscribed😊
Thanks for subscribing and I appreciate the feedback and comment. Good luck on your 67 I am hoping to have one on the channel one day.
As my fabricator friend George used to say, “…something is better than nothing…”. However, sometimes just barely.
Haha yes he is right, thanks for the comment.
During final fitment, I add 15-20 lbs in bottom of door to account for glass, regulator
That sounds about right for everything inside the door
Nice analysis of your issues. Some guys would go ahead and weld it up and then start scratching their heads when the gaps couldn't be adjusted. As you know, even factory body panels from the older cars are sometimes not right from the factory. My brother has a 39 Chevy that has two factory rear fenders with different shaped wheel arches. The casual observer wont notice it but...
Thank you very much. I wondered that how many cars they let slip from the factory with issues that unless you take a tape measurement too or stare at it long enough you would never realize.
Merry Christmas
Merry Christmas to you also!
We know that aftermarket sheet metal usually need adjustments to fit all the pieces together. I find it a little disappointing that the fenders are not a near exact mirror image from side to side. I think my complaint is warranted due to the high price of the parts. Thank you for showing us how to install the body panels correctly.
You're welcome and yes I agree with you although adjusting on the pieces is normal you would at least expect a mirror stamping one side vs another.
I just rebodied a 68 roadrunner with all AMD parts....sliced and diced every single part but got 3/16 on every gap. Super time consuming
You are correct it is very time consuming but will worth it when you finish
We have had to rework the heck out of everything we've gotten for the 69 Road Runner we are putting together. Its ridiculous when you pay a premium for AMD and then have to fix everything. Even body lines were off...
@@g.o.b.2558 I have never messed with the roadrunner sheet metal from AMD but good to know for the future.
Doing so many replacement aftermarket panels at once makes for a lot of grief at once.
If possible, if you have original panels already on the car that aren't banged up really bad and body lines are close to being proper, then do one replacement panel at a time. Starting from one end to the other end. And one side at a time. Patience pays off. Now if time is a major issue remember in the end you may wind up spending more time after everything is replaced trying to align, grind, fill and sand everything at once.
I think i have a different process then you. I like to cut everything out first and take each step one at a time. There is so many benefits by removing everything at once from blasting, clean up and just being efficient. I can adjust 5 different panels at the same time and not bound to just one piece at a time making it actually easier to line up. Here even if it was the only panel removed the fender was still off so I still would have come up with the same outcome. Check out some of the complete project on the channel I feel the process and quality it works for me. I also need to be efficient as I am building most of these for other people and one panel at a time people take years to metal work in the process.
My 1969 convertible gave me a major problem. Aftermarket passenger front inner fender well was the problem. Cutting , bending cursing and a lot of help ......
Haha yes it seems like the inner fenders will fight you all the way. Glad you got your figured out al your tips is usually my go too also.
Nice work Rick. I have seen alot of second gen Camaros that the fenders stick out from the door ever so slightly. A few people said that GM did that to reduce wind noise. Not sure if thats true or not. Still looking for some I beams so I can build a jig for mine. I have also looked at some old boat trailers. Hopefully something will turn up soon on marketplace.
Thanks for that info I never heard that but actually makes a lot of sense. One will turn up if you know of any towns in industrial areas thats a good place to look also.
The front edge of the door is not supposed to be even with the rear fender edge because that's how stone chips, and wind leaks happen, and once the door pins and bushings wear, the door edge will stick out further, possibly binding on the fender. The rear of the door is not supposed to be flush with the front edge of the rear quarter, for the same reason. The show car obsession with making everything unnaturally straight ( and using body filler to do it) causes more fitment problems than necessary. Rick is right about these cars with bolt on subframes, the back half is pretty solid , but the front is prone to twist, especially if you have to change the bushings and front sub frame.
@@markanthony3275 Thanks for the insight and you are right I agree with everything you stated. I know with the first gen F -body cars no matter how they came from the factory most I deal with want them aligned no matter what so it makes it more of a challenge
I used all Gm Panels on Mine. I bought all the parts from Gm in 1985. stored for years. Put them on 2018. Gm stuff is not right ether. Pass side fender short from factory on mine. Aftermarket front bumper not good fit. I like your video . Can you say seam sealer
Thanks a lot, good to know even some of the GM direct panels were different length. They probably would have been the tooling and parts used to makes these parts.
She's a beauty 😍.
Thank you!
I’m gonna compare those measurements to my NOS fender see how it compares. I don’t have a drivers side but maybe can get someone I know to measure one they have.
That would be really cool to let us know what you come up with. I am really curious, thank you.
@@carthageclassiccars actually just thought of it I do have a drivers fender it’s just 69 TA w the holes behind the scoop so I should be able to get both sides measured.
Nice,will you be mudding the entire body to finish?
If you see my video on the Challenger body work I just released it will probably more along those lines but who knows for sure what ill come up with down the road.
I assume that you plan on readjusting after the windows, etc, are installed. I'm sure you know how much that they will sag.
You can adjust them on the car and if you pre adjust them its very hard to get the car to bodywork properly. Actually the last firebird I built the new hinges didn't sage at all after everything is installed. If they do sag like some Ill adjust them last.
Aftermarket stuff is difficult to line up, especially the front end.
Yes your right the front end stuff usually takes me twice as long it seems most of the time
I imagine Every replacement body part needs a little tweaking and trimming.
I would say sometimes you get lucky but you have the right idea plan on the worse and each part you buy needs something is a good way of thinking.
Where did you get your panel gap tool. I found one on Amazon, but metric. Is that what you use?
It is called the Gap-it-tool i believe i got it from paul horton's shop
Well if u had been around when those vehicles were being produced u would realize that ur applying current fitment standards to vehicles that most definitely weren't built to them. In reality your panels fit better than the new ones did on these cars.
Yes I agree with you 100% the factory cars and survivor cars I see do not meet what I would consider really nice. In every build my goal is to make them look nicer then factory and be a better quality all around.
I WISH I had this man’s Autobody skill level but I wouldn’t consider “restoring” a car by rebuilding what was a rust pile around a vin tag with Taiwanese sheet metal. Theseus’s ship and all…
Thanks, I get what you're saying a lot of the car will be new I think with this one it was the only way to properly save the few parts on the structure left
Hey, I had a question on floor pans. Got a 73 barracuda. I know for body panels AMD is the best, but I wondered if it matters what brand the floor pan is? Is different brand's thicker metal? Is it really that much difference between brand's?
I like to go with one of the top brand names as I have found it seems even with the floor pans the stampings are crisper, angles are closer, and the do fit in the car just all around better. you could easily cut and modify floor pans but this is the base on your build so why not make the base as best quality you can.
@carthageclassiccars very true, ok I appreciate the info and knowledge you share. And your videos are gold. Keep up the awesome content
@@kstevens8384Thanks a lot good luck with your build
where did you get the gapping tool at? thanks
This one is a Gap-it-tool from welderseries.company.site
So question …. Even in the early gap stage why don’t you preload the doors for total weight with glass etc ??
If I preload the door assuming you mean by lifting them up or adding weight that would not change what I am trying to accomplish here in the metal work or even the body work phase. We want the door at final resting place where it aligns with the quarters, rockers and front fenders so as long as I adjust it there when I put glass in the cars as one of the last parts of the build if I see the door sagging I will follow the steps in this video and pick it up a hair. The pre load won't change the edges of the gaps just sag in the door.
Thanks for the reply .i was just wondering for hinge sag but i get what you mean now ..great content by the way enjoy your breakdown of things 👍
And...how straight was your floor pan and shell seeing as how you had everything rusted out? If your core is twisted, you'll never have good reference points for anything else.
So I am really confident the shell was straight. I am assuming you haven't went back and watched how this car was installed to the JIG. The floor was rusted in all 4 corners but not enough to hurt any structural integrity. Also each car I build that goes on a JIG I square up, drop plumb bobs and check off factory frame measurements that I also went over in this video showing what was left on this car was actually probably even closer then most factory tolerances. I also showed in this video with a simple tape measurement that the fenders were off so that also confirms my frame measurements showing the same result.
@@carthageclassiccarsYeah, I just happened on your video by chance so I didn't see the previous video's. To me it sounds like you're taking more precautions than most. I have a question about the roundness of these panels, and what I mean is, are they stamped with enough curve from top to bottom ? I know in the past, some poorly stamped panels would loose some curve and then appear to be taller than surrounding panels. I am retired from the trade as a professional body man so I haven't any experience with Dynacorn stuff , but I gotta think it's better than the aftermarket stuff of twenty years ago. Love them 69 Firebirds !
@@markanthony3275 Ah yes I see what you mean. A lot of times you are right In a previous video on this car thats what I did is split the inner structure and change the curvature of the fender to fix that issue
@@carthageclassiccars Wow! Been there had no choice but to do that! I commend you, it's a lot of work to get everything right, but that's what separates the craftsmen from the tradesmen! Cheers from Canada!
Parts made in CHYNA............
Well Taiwan but yes I agree. They still are fairly cheap for what you do get. All this is expected but its hard to find a mint 50-60 year old car so this is the best alternative.
I have a shed full of 69 parts. Do you have everything you need?
Yes currently I have everything I need for the cars external body but might be looking for a rear seat down the road.
Restore your American classic car with chineez parts.
I guess the alternative is leave rusted out weak 60 year old American metal
every door and fender that buy gets damage dents upon delivery . don't buy body parts from Summit !
Actually its funny you said that the last part that arrived from summit the edge was dented bad, then they replaced it with a dent in the center of a door and i ended up fixing it. I blamed my delivery guy but it might have not been him looking back now.
Rebuilding cars should be cheap when buying complete panels. Instead you pay a fortune for a car which is nothing like OEM. Graveyard cars shows that the replacement panels when completed give you a $250k car made from Chinese steel . Nothing like the original.
Ahh.... I kind of agree on some sort but also disagree in the sense that most of these cars with "original" panels are rust buckets, especially Mopars. Patching and the years of others working on them has only made them worse. I think the aftermarket quality panels are the same thickness and fit decent. You do get some stampings like this that are off but for what it takes to get a car up to graveyard cars level or what I am striving for I don't doubt you will have a bunch of money in these car. For sure its not cheap. Saying that I think personally I am building these cars a lot better then the factory ever did in every aspect. Check out in a couple days I go over a complete bodied car and perfecting it making it look better then any factory car.
I must have missed the memo on taking the T Out of the alphabet. What's the purpose too much work to pronounce the t
I guess if thats the biggest issue with the video and what I am doing Ill take that as a compliment.