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This was a nice reminder that i really should try playing GW2 again, the mount movement really puts other games not even just mmos to shame. Thanks for the code and for the always awesome content!
“an expansion isn’t actually expanding on the game when it’s the only relevant part of the game to actually play” I love when you do these videos because i feel like this is your niche! This type of analysis of games and genre’s is where you shine and I can only hope that other companies are watching and take notes.
I've always thought that as well. Classic example being WoW, where each expansion limits the majority of the gameplay to a handful of new zones and dungeons. That game is missing out on so much more value because there is literally nothing incentivizing people to go back and do stuff in the older zones. Guild Wars 2 is a great example of such a system being implemented pretty well.
@@Tehstampede Yes I agree! I actually did a big post about this on MMO champion. The title of the post was If only WoW had gone in another direction. Basically talking about having more horizontal content that didn’t render the previous content irrelevant. Like seeing events within the game such as in guild wars two. We are maybe there is an attack on the village that you help to defend against. And then afterwords there is another event to help rebuild that same town. The game could reward items based on your actual character level so there is always incentive to do these things. Also if they it is horizontal progression in the form of mastery points or some thing that could be used in different areas like faster travel or different abilities with a dungeons or so on.
WoW is the pinnacle example of this quote. It's the oldest popular MMO with the most far reaching lore and worldbuilding. Yet simply all you do is just play those 5-6 zones in the most recent expansion. All the lore and the effort of the developers to craft these zones, stories, legendaries, dungeons etc of the prior 15 years years has been reduced to leveling zones. In GW2 there are about 30-40 of end content zones at this point, and they are almost all still relevant. It offers just so much more content at this point.
yeah I agree after playing vertical progression games for many years I have learned that horizontal can be just as enjoyable and even more so he because I don’t feel like the game is a job. I can play for a little while go do something else come back play for a couple hours do whatever and I’m not really missing anything because it’s all there for me whenever I come back I can just do different things on a horizontal path rather than feeling 1,000,000 miles behind everybody else on the vertical path because they have more time than I do to allocate towards a game.
Main reason i love Souls games so much. While obviously there are weapons that can cheese everything, by design every weapon is viable to clear the game. MMO-wise, FFXIV also does horizontal somewhat well. Even if the hardcore raiders cries about balance every single patch, especially for 6.2.
You know, every content creator says "I would not recommend something I don't personally like" in their sponsor segments. Josh is one of the few that I belive when he says it.
My biggest issue with vertical power creep is that it just gets old very quickly. One can only go through so many cycles of power creep reset. The way I felt at the end of Cataclysm is the same way I felt at the end of Pandaria and the way I felt at the beginning of Cataclysm is the same way I felt in Pandaria. It feels so articial when my power level just flucuates extremely predictably in set cycles. It stops me from feeling like I'm getting more powerful and more like the predictable ups and downs of a rollercoaster. Still fun, but not exactly exciting after a couple rides.
I'm kind of a...diagonal player. I want to enjoy the process, but I also want there to be some point to what I'm doing. Being the absolute best doesn't matter to me much if at all, but just doing arbitrary content with little to no reward gets dull fairly quickly. That reward doesn't NEED to be stat-based necessarily, but there needs to be something beyond just the experience itself to avoid it wearing out its welcome.
IRL Crafts - knitting, sewing, woodworking, etc - have the same thing, "process" vs "project". No one is truly all one side or the other, most folks want some of both. Someone who's purely horizontal/process would be happy restarting at the start of every session, arcade-style, and someone who's all about vertical/project [results] would be happy to just buy a max-level account, and never bother playing. Some progress, some options, likely enjoying more of one or the other, that's where the majority of players lie.
I think the Ultimate Fights in XIV handle that style of reward really well. You get special weapons from defeating those fights and a title to say you have done it. Those weapons are mostly on par with the other strongest weapons in the game with the sole advantage of them having an extra materia slot. Not enough to make a difference other than 0.x% more damage, but enough to trigger the "oooo" factor.
@@Eyrothath lol no. Albion online is the epitome of doing things that don’t matter. If you’re killed you lose all the armor and weapons you worked so hard to get…
Now I’ve got to ask: where does Final Fantasy XIV fall on this? I’m asking because it features both a climb for Power, but also expands in several directions, and older content stays relevant as you not only get synched down if needed, but the items gained can also be valuable as Glamour. Plus, there are mounts and minions that are always worth chasing.
@@JackWolf1 that is still vertical progression. Vertical progression doesn't mean there can't be content that isn't about gaining power or equipment. Basically every MMO since WoW(and probably before but I don't know well enough to say for sure) has included some cosmetic collections or rewards. Like titles or mounts or skins or whatever else they've come up with. Some do it better and some worse but it is fairly universal. But if the core progression of the game is about power then it is a vertical progression game.
@@JackWolf1 Agreed w the above, its absolutely vertical in the core gameplay loop. It works horizontal elements in by necessity. Youll find most games are a mix either way. The level sync and roulette systems are just clever ways of covering for a clear weakness of the game's intended treadmill. Its not a bad thing necessarily, its just how it is.
Plateaus exist, ie tiers and expansions. The “Balance” is always there so that you can migrate and spread out players physically/logically. The problem is that you need vertical for popularity, but it’s a rush and has a significant drop once people have hit their own “wall”. Horizontal games require a lot of creative material and creep. You might value the horizontal for the long term, but it needs a purpose. Because a game that is “too open” doesn’t attract patrons or customers.
I like the fact that I can take a break from Gw2 and still come back without my character being gimped. Also, it’s nice to be able to jump around different maps and do different things depending on how I feel with everything still being relevant.
@DontHateMeCausImSexy zero progression? Someone hasn't played the game. There may not be numbers to chase but there is still everything else. Legendary gear, mastery points, collections and achievements, etc. Not to mention new content every expansion.
GW2 is also comparatively a small MMO for this very reason. The market pretty clearly dictates what there is demand for. But I'm glad there are options regardless
I always appreciate horizontal progression. It makes me go back to play again an again for a long time without any issue, unlike its counterpart which gives off massive FOMO and once I don't play for a certain period of time I just tell myself that I'm certainly behind everyone else and I just never touch the game again.
I am a huge fan of horizontal games. I'm also glad Fashion Wars 2 gets more attention. When it comes to horizontal experiences, that is the game to play. The rest of the guild is all stacked on legendaries that require months of grind? No problem, I can still keep up with my exotic/ascended gear while chasing new fashion choices from the expansions over stronger eq since the difference is not very high.
One thing i love about guild wars 2 is how your attacks change depending on your weapon. Just started, I'm an elementilist and uts described as a highly versatile class. You have up to 5 attacks, sigis not withstanding, but those attacks can change if you have a different weapon.you can also switch between 4 different elements, changing your attacks. Once you unlock the ability to switch weapons during combat, you now have at least 40 different attacks at any given time. Madness.
Seeing Guild Wars 2 sponsor Josh makes me so happy! I play GW2 since 2015 and back then it was so niche that after path of fire and the icebrood saga being announced I thought it would just die. But it didn’t! Arenanet really pulled themselves together, they reset their goals and now GW2 is thriving more than ever! It is truly great to see an mmo rise from the brink of death, especially such a great one. There has never been a better time to play GW2 than now.
I'm gonna start replaying. I played back in 2012, and it was a blast. I really want to "experience it for the first time" again, and it seems like a good time to gather some friends and logon.
Guild Wars 2 is the only game that I keep going back to again and again. I take breaks but it's such a fun game that I've been playing on and off since it's launch and still have a lot of fun everytime I decide to play. I've been playing MMOs for decades now, but GW2 really is the best one I've played hands down.
>and back then it was so niche From my experience since GW1 (which means I was very interested in GW2 development and I do remember the Commando class teaser) and Betas it was always filled with players with an exception of one time period: 1. The playerbase got lower back then due to sPvP (people were boosting on live stream tournaments; it was that neglected) and WvW issues (meta, unbalanced servers or smth; a lot of guilds left as a result) leaving only limited Fractal grind as a late game PvE content (with not much ascended gear and infusion options; some Fractals were not fun to grind). All these stuff were reworked, changed and added but there was this particular time frame when people were leaving / taking a break.
@@3Diva this is exactly why I stopped playing WOW when GW2 launched. I was a busy college student and grinding to the ever further out of reach end game of WoW during the cataclysm/pandaria era was unaffordable.GW2, like GW1 was something I could always get back to, and everything you did seemed to matter (it's only more so now) and plus, to my knowledge, no one else had the world events, puzzles, and mini dungeons that lent themselves well to horizontal game play. And it was built to be so much more social than WOW was, possibly more than it is today. Like every other map was like the best of the old Barrens chat, except that people were actually incentivized to help each other
@@prieston yea it is weird to think of the things they made mistakes on that took a long time for them to fix and some only within the last few months (hello dungeons, nice to finally play you, living season 1 🤣)
I'm definitely a horizontal type. I like experimenting, finding new ways to overcome challenges. As Josh stated, the process is more fulfilling for me than the end result. I could create a build that has turned out pretty terrible but tinkering with it and drawing out its full potential is an enjoyable experience. The experience and knowledge from that process is also valuable for future builds. Though as you said some games introduce so many features that finding something enjoyable is the most daunting task and you often feel burnout from searching for something interesting before actually doing it.
Coming from 13 years of WoW and 2 years of FF14, this video made me decide to give GW2 a shot. Makes me sad that I didn't give this game a chance sooner. So thank you for that. Great video.
The same for me, a long time WoW and FF14 player. Just started and GW2 may be my favorite mmo so far. Can't ever see myself going back to vertical progression.
I prefer sub fee because it’s the fairest exchange of “spend money get content” and keeps all dev focus on the game. Devs are incentivized to make the game fun rather than make things to sell. You technically could spend on a cash shop without even being an active player. Sub fee games are harder to bounce around on though so I do like that GW2 can be hopped in and out easily.
I think it's funny how overprices all subs are in MMOs and people still garble on it. 15 dollars a month for you to use 0.015 cents of a server bandwidth isn't very fair. Very rarely the free updates are worth it too.
@@starjun8144 You know, GW2 in its beta when it still had a fraction of the GW1 devs didnt do that. Gem store was character slots, rename, etc with in city only/RP costumes. Boosters started as quest reward token vendor trade ins to get other resources faster to reward those that spent their time just playing around and fully exploring.
Watching this video makes me realize how well OSRS balances vertical vs horizontal progression. OSRS is my "main" MMO but like most players I have taken a couple extended breaks from the game. When I've returned it's always extremely easy to get back into things. There might be new ways to train skills but the old methods still work too. There might be new gear added but my old gear is still perfectly viable. You just consult the wiki a few times when you run into something new and before you know it you're gaming again.
I've just spent 280+ hours playing a new OSRS account after not touching the game in 10 years or so. Had fun learning the new systems but it makes me want a game that's "like" OSRS but isn't OSRS....I love the skilling system but the grind wears on you after a while.
What do you think about the new updates within the past year? That's how long I've taken a break from OSRS, and it seems like a relatively large step in the vertical content direction.
@@Xenoun have you tried rs3? I know it sounds dumb but I felt similar and my buddy asked me to switch so I tried it and it definitely hits that RuneScape itch and it has some grind but it’s much smoother and not so elitist
@@Bsquad665 I haven't, was considering it. What put me off of trying it was hearing it has a worse botting problem than OSRS. The bots are the main thing I don't like about OSRS.
I like vertical progression, but not for being more powerful than others. I like being able to look back and see how I've progressed myself and become more powerful than I was before. A bit of horizontal choice in which improvement to get first is all I need to feel like I'm deciding my own journey.
Horizontal games can do this too though. Imagine a new raid boss that only takes damage from a new mechanic. The boss is no stronger than previous bosses, and your gear is no better, but it that boss is still impossible (or at least difficult) to beat without using the new mechanic. This grants a feeling of mastery and power even without increasing any numbers. A great example of this is actually God of War; you spend most of the game with an ax that does frost damage, and then later unlock the classic chain blades that do fire damage. Neither is any stronger than the other, but the different damage types make them useful against different enemies so unlocking the blades allows you to "become stronger" and defeat previously impossible foes. Likewise the move sets of the two weapons being different makes them feel like two completely different playstyles.
@@arkhamcreed4326 The concept is nice and I certainly like to imagine a game working that way, but in practice it doesn't have the same psychological effect. With vertical progression, if I progress to a new tier and get stronger, when/if I go back to a previous tier, perhaps to help a friend with it, I can see how my character has improved. Sure more options and simply player skill do have their own improvement effects, but it's just not the same feeling as seeing something you used to struggle with become noticeable easier without any change of effort. Even more so when you tried something that was simply too hard for your current progression before, then going back and having a fair shot at it later.
I like horizontal progression, but not for having more choices. I like being able to look back and see how I've progressed myself in getting more knowledgeable and more skilled than I was before. No magic sword will save me, I have to get better at game to get more powerful. Nothing wrong to have a bit of vertical stuff here and there, but ultimately vertical games feel a bit like idle clicker for higher numbers in the end to me and not much more.
Vertical progression doesn't really offer that in most cases though, or do you really feel more powerful than before when the enemies in high levels are just the same basic wolves from level 1 but with more health and damage?
@@antoinehanako3193 Pretty much what I was thinking. Vertical "progress" is just watching a meaningless number go up, you don't really see that in any genre besides MMOs and unsurprisingly, those other genres tend to be much more popular and successful. There's definitely a place for ilvl grind but MMOs are far too reliant on it as a substitute for meaningful content.
After playing Guild Wars 2, I can never ever go back to vertical design. I like that older content is still relevant, I like enjoying the fruits of my labour and not having it be undone with the newest update, I enjoy the freedom of choice and how the game values my time, and most of all I'm never bored because of the replayability and the variety of content.
This is an interestingly well timed video for me. I came back to Guild Wars 2 after a 10 year hiatus in which I played from launch and no-lifed to get ahead of the curve. In that time I acquired a full set of exotic crafted gear, the highest quality at the time, explored all the content in the personal story quests and the overworld. Shortly afterward through a combination of burnout and running out of things to do, I left. Fast forward 10 years, I log back on again. I open my mail to see 10 birthday letters, organize my inventory for an hour before realizing material storage now exists and muddle through the several dozen of freebie consumables and skins I've been sent. Swap my TMNT Shredder looking gear for a full set of Luminous and I embarked on 'new' content. While the game is as high-quality as ever, I might have made the realization I enjoy vertical progression more. I still feel like my character is powerful and I'm knocking down story quests with no real challenge or personal investment in the story. I don't remember any of these characters and they're addressing me like I'm their commander-in-chief. It really raised interesting questions for me on the reasons I play games and the tradeoffs of horizontal and vertical progression.
@@omega73115 Guess it took me 10 years to discover then. Either that, or I was crafting a million items before logging off. I genuinely have no idea, but my inventory was a mess.
@@Psycho683 The material storage was there, but a few things have been added to it. Also some stuff has been converted into currency since then. If you are talking about the story in the base game: There is a considerable jump in difficulty in Heart of Thorns and also in some endgame activities available for base game only users. I suggest testing that out. But following your description of your playstyle ("get aheead of the curve") I can totally see that GW2 might not be a match for you.
Horizontal progression is good for World Map. That's something I learned from WoW and GW2. And that's something I want to see figured out with new MMOs by developers, I want to come back to low level zones to find something else to do there, not only pick some ores and good bye...
No adding yet another vista to an already cleared map is not my view of horizontal progression. It was one of the things that drove me away from GW2 instead of bringing me in.
@@11235Aodh You're actually right it may need more, but I liked the World Events and the World Bosses, the questing system, the jumping puzzles, even the vistas. It's very innovative imo. And at least map completion is in there for you if you need to bring people back to their uncompleted low level zones. But yeah, it still needs more, the question is, what else could they bring to the table? They went the extra mile already, at least when compared to WoW empty maps full of low level NPCs, ores and plants.
@@11235Aodh David wasn't talking about invalidating previous progress by expanding it and just increasing that type of grind, I think. What - to stay with that example - GW2 actually did was introducing new dynamic events to maps. There are attacks by different enemy factions / creatures happening from time to time, like the rifts or ley line things. There were also some other permanent changes to the maps, which may have introduced new POIs, but the point of change wasn't to add that in. Also: It is way more better to add reasons to revisit the map several times (if you like to) instead a one time incentive to revisit a location.
@@DavidJMunoz-kn2qh I agree with David here, the way GW2 has handeled the map design makes it engaging to come back and 'complete' the map, and the way World Events work in GW2 are the real reason to play the game, but the trade off is that the instanced Raids and Bosses imo for GW2 are less engaging than that of WoW or FFXIV. GW2 Bosses all feel like hit till it dies bosses.
@@Arrow333 Yeah, i get your point, and tbh i haven't played GW2 in a long time (2014 prolly) but seeing the 100% map completion drop to 99 or 98% to me was just demotivating.
9:46 - Vertical progression has the same problem in reverse. Vets have to tell new players which features have been overwritten in the efficiency hierarchy and need to be ignored.
that would make me want to make them work even more - bunch of munchkins aint no business telling me to discard a mechanic just because it isnt "optimal" also the very fact that there is such a hierarchy means youre talking about vertical design... if its objectively more powerful its not a horizontal change
Vertical progression is actually even worse with the long tail of outdated and often fully redundant mechanics that the development path leaves behind over the years. With horizontal progression, it's at least POSSIBLE, if somewhat difficult, to ease players into every new mechanic and get them caught up, without having to do tons of strictly retroactive onboarding/NPE updates that provide nothing for existing players.
@@Ithirahad hit the nail on the head with this. Final Fantasy XIV is a great example, the developers are struggling to deal with an evergrowing heap of old, outdated content and stretching themselves thing trying to not make the beginning of the game a pain to get through
I'm a huge fan of horizontal progression. This is why I play ESO, as it has so many unique sets to attain and while some are more effective than others, the variety allows for countless playstyles. In the same vein I also prioritize Roleplay over performance, mostly grinding for things that allow me to customize my aesthetic or playstyle
I definitely enjoy ESO for this reason. I do feel like I have more options to express myself in a build. Destiny 2's vertical progression is basically tacked on. It's horizontal progression/build crafting is more important.
There's one thing on vertical progression I'd like to say: you can still have a great experience alongside the gaining of power. It doesn't have to be a mindless grind. However, games that have both the experience and the reward are very few and far between (I believe)
The issue of vertical progress is the incentive to keep going is not based on a need, and there’s no way to avoid the “train” always moving forward. Tying progress to success is not enough. You need to create a desire to return to playing the game that can affect multiple people… and all of those people need to be happy when they don’t succeed. Especially when they fail. Progress can become dull when there’s no longer an adrenaline or a high. Unless you create a Tier or plateau and let people reach different plateaus to allow for incentives and other benefits to accrue. You would need to be confident that people would come back to play the game once they reach the peak. Or prevent those at the peak of a tier from terrorising those below. It’s not impossible, but difficult to keep people from falling into bad habits. Or chasing the Dragon.
I thought this too. While I can't relate myself, I imagine that at least a good portion of "power chasers" genuinely enjoy the game and just see the power as a reward at the end. Like, instead of seeing the credits and "Congratulations!" like you would in a single-player game, you get to see your character being awesome as a congratulatory gesture for getting through all the challenges.
Wow , I go make battlegrounds no good items no fun, so let s farm items, pve is the same for greater mythics that are harder to do and not boring like m0 and so on, I logged into wow and get back to grinding second job
It doesn't have to be a dichotomy. A game can have vertical progression up until max level, then become more of a horizontal progression, so you get the satisfaction a seeing the damage numbers go up, while not having older content become obsolete. Also, if we say that a vertical progression has a 90° line and horizontal progression has a 0° line, you can very much have a game where your progression line is at 10° or 20°. So over the years, with new expansions, there would be a slight amount of power creep, but not enough to make old content useless. And the focus of the new items is not directly to be more powerful than older ones, but to give more builds variety. Of course, with more builds variety, there will be more ways to min/max your character, leading to a little bit of powercreep.
As a PVP player in both WoW and GW2 player I can solemnly say that vertical games are more task oriented and horizontal games are more casual oriented. WoW felt like a job and GW2 feels like a pickup game when you want to relax. GW2 gives you the options to do what you want and WoW tells you what you have to do
i mean, i guess thats how most see wow, but personally i dont think that that is enough to stop me, i didnt go after legendaries in wow up until i was like, doing +10s last year, and only this month i got my BiS and Unity legendary, i didnt do torghast for so very long, and yet as a solo player my 262 boomkin was enough to solo 190 or so runs until i got all the ashes and cinders and whatnot required for the BiS leggo. But yes i will not deny what the playerbase feels and experieces, shadowlands really does have way too much shit standing in the way of the power fantasy of becoming powerful, the challenge should not be acquiring ur gear and powers, but rather doing content WITH such power I do think tho that the covenant campaigns were a nice progression except for the fucking 80 RENOUN to level trough, it should have been originally 40 with all the same rewards imo. And fuck the maw, such a terrible game design...poor audio balancing, excessively melancholic and tedious, made me wanna sleep, annoying music and VERY annoying mechanics and mobs I do think Dragonflight is gonna be good tho, because they are changing a bunch of fundamental issues with the game, lets see what comes of it
@@yankokassinof6710 Honestly think Activision had some influence over Blizzard's decisions on retail WoW. CoD always forced you to grind levels to unlock guns, often requiring you to level up to maximum before you unlocked everything, where the game actually began because you could finally be competitive. But even then most played for the progression and chose to prestige back to level 1 anyway. Putting endless grinds into WoW seemed to be the objective as it kept the CoD playerbase playing so effectively.
@@DTreatz Have you tried ESO? It has mostly horizontal progression. There is a vertical component that at a certain point becomes negligible because of hard diminishing returns. But there is still a meta that keeps changing, because they change game mechanics in subtle ways or add new sets that create new kinds of interaction between sets and mechanics which may produce measurably better results. But at the same time, these things don't outclass the old setups by so much that you couldn't complete new endgame content at the highest level. And often it's something old and forgotten that never has been meta that becomes the new meta. Basically everything sensible (and you can have nonsensical builds because of the design of the game, but let's not go too deep into it here) performs at 80-90% of the meta builds, and barely anything ever slips below that, allowing people who had taken a 5 year break to jump right into the newest content. At the same time the meta keeps changing, always giving power oriented people something to chase to stay on top. Overall power creep still exists in ESO, but it is either situational or very slow. And if history is an indicator, the old builds will keep creeping along too, because the overall creep comes from changing game mechanics and skills rather than new gear.
@@256shadesofgrey I used to play ESO it was awesome untill devs continuously start to break and destroy the build you took month to make viable, you change it and they do that again and again, and now they took away Heavy and light attacks! gg wp farewell
Thanks man, you managed to put words to something I couldn't. For a while I noticed me and my friends had been playing less and less games together, and when we did we'd always have completely different goals/pathways to getting through our game/what we wanted to do in it. Using your words, my friends would all be vertical players while I am a horizontal player. For example: take a game of minecraft. We'd start a world and within a week my friends have already beaten the end, got fully enchanted netherite armor, and made a fortress castle to store it in. Meanwhile I am still using iron armor, have no enchants, and haven't even touched the nether, but if you'd look at our gameplay you'd see they basically beelined everything while I had journeyed to a distant jungle, got an army of parrots, tracked down some wolves and llamas, and had begun making a long tracked journey to the farlands using nothing but a mobile base made of llamas. Whenever we play MMO's they always try to go through wikis to find the best possible stuff while I take my time, read through the story, and only go for the items that cross my path and see where my journey takes me, though more often than not I try to give myself some challenge as well like only use noncombat equipment or only kill specific types of enemies, etc.
What's really painful is that for many of those vertical players, they don't really _enjoy_ the game. If you get them to role play and just have fun with the game and avoid the guides (meaning "the quickest way to the top", not "what to do if you're stuck on X"), you'll have a lot more fun individually _and_ in a group. It's kind of ridiculous if you think about it: the point of games is to have an enjoyable experience and an appropriate level of challenge. So why oh why would you just rush _to the end_ using a pre-discovered "optimal" path, robbing yourself of all the discovery and fun? Maybe another way to look at this is that the vertical players are into games for _the winning_ . They tend to be the guys who get extremely frustrated whenever it seems they might not win in the end, and they throw a tantrum and quit when someone else is doing better. Horizontal players are into games for _the playing_ . The journey, the friends, the discoveries, the fun, and yes, even the low points, the failing, the losing, the trying again. Vertical games are _very_ poorly made for enjoying with a group of friends. As soon as one of you gets just a bit too far ahead or behind, they're dropped from the entire experience. There is no meaningful way you can play together anymore. The rush to the top can be thrilling if everyone plays as often as possible... but you inevitably leave anyone who can't keep up behind. That's also why people don't even bother dealing with groups until they get to max level in games like WoW.
These video essays are damn close to legendary quality. Absolutely superb writing, clarity of explanation, speaking style, and decent visuals to accompany the essay. I also really love that the subject of the video is one that's going to be relevant for a wide section of the gaming public. Wider than the number of people interested in some flavour of the month game, at least. It means that if I'm trying to recall a specific quote or aspect of your argument, I'll be able to recognize at least which video to go to to reference the idea, unlike all those discussion videos I've watched that were titled based on some date, or based on some irrelevant news story of the week.
As an OSRS player who mains an ironman, this video really helped me realize WHY I love the game mode so much. To me, I enjoy the journey to the top and being at the top. Getting a twisted bow/scythe/shadow were amazing feelings, but getting progressively better gear/pbs/being more comfortable in end game pvm were equally great. I think I enjoy the idea of vertical with the journey aspect of horizontal design. Maining an ironman really changes the way I view OSRS and, consequently, all other games.
This is exactly why I'm hooked onto OSRS so much. It feels like a vertical design game with horizontal design mechanics. A very finely balanced mix of the two, an experience that doesn't feel like it completely shifts into one or the other design philosophy. There IS an objectively best choice for each of the combat styles, the best method of gaining XP while skilling, best runes to craft, best trees to chop, etc. The skills themselves are quite literally the vertical scale by which you hop from one stepping stone to another on the way to the top. Hell, the "prestige" that comes with owning lvl 99 skill capes or the best sets is what drives players forward most of the time in Runescape. HOWEVER, the way the game presents itself is by giving you the choices on how you want to achieve that top and because it takes so long to transfer from one stage of the game to the other, older content is never invalidated or overshadowed by new content. Usually, because grinds can take 100-200hours, you end up trying all the content available anyway, purely out of boredom or wanting a change of pace while still working toward that overarching vertical goal. When there are multiple training options for an overarching goal, you end up with the satisfaction of the experience of the horizontal design, while still getting the satisfaction of having reached the vertical design pyramid top.
Really makes me think about Warframe and how it has problems with both power creep and feature creep. There's so many things to unlock and so many tiers of power to achieve that trying to get a new player into it is just way too daunting. Such a cool game, but the glue has turned to rubber with time.
New-ish Warframe player here. Started late 2021. The game does have a shit ton of things to unlock, but it unravels before you gradually at your own pace. For the first 300 hours of playtime I had been logging in every day to find something new. Every. Single. Day. It was like a bloody Christmas. Never felt pushed or intimidated. Hell, I first learned about Liches at about 200h and found out that Railjack EXISTS at 250h. Eventually stopped playing after 900h because I just ran out of shit to do =)
I think the complexity is what attracts a certain type of person to the game. Take, for example, mods. At first mods seem overly complicated and there's no good tutorial in the game to walk you through how it all works. For some players they might look at mods and just quit the game because it's just too much to take in, especially when they are dying a lot on missions because they've modded poorly and are too weak. But the players who stick with it (ask in chat, look at wiki, watch a video, experiment on their own) are players who like trying to figure complex systems out. And Warframe is all about trying to find a good frame and weapon combination and then figuring how how to mod them creatively to then do the content well. That's what the game really comes down to and so the game sort of self selects for players who like that sort of thing and are motivated to creatively solve "complex" systems in order to play well. So in that regard the new player experience for Warframe is really good in that it pretty quickly weeds out players who might not do well at higher levels when they're required to get very creative with mods and frames and weapons and all the other interconnected systems. And I don't mean this as some form of gatekeeping, I'm only saying that certain games appeal to certain types of people and Warframe appeals to a certain type of player. Loads of games are like this: some people like unusual combat such as the Xenoblade series, and some might enjoy mastering complex inputs like Guilty Gear. But people who don't like that sort of thing will just move onto something they do enjoy until they find the game that's right for them. So Warframe isn't really unfriendly to new players, it's just being really honest about what the game expects from the player very early on.
I called it quits on warframe when they started priming quest reward frames. I haven't played in many years but mesa and harrow come to mind. Both taking a long time to unlock and you were rewarded with a great and unique frame. Harrow took me over 40hrs to unlock, then they release a prime version you can instantly buy for 100plat and is superior in every single way. Digital Extremes should've made it so making a prime version of a warframe required the original frame as an ingredient of the blueprint.
@@LCDqBqA If you quit when they priemd mesa and Harroww, then you're not aware that for almost three years now there's been the Helminth system, where you sacrifice old frames to donate their special moves to other frames. And you have to use the base version, primes won't work. Also, Primes take *four years* before they show up,, and they're only around for a limited time. Yes for a brand new player that happens to show during the period theyh're out, its often easier to get the prime than the base, but for a solid 4 years prior to that the quest is the only way and that's plenty of time for a thing to be relevant for a game that is always releasing new content. Also base verisions are still worth XP so until you get to MR 30 they're worth getting purely as mastery fodder.
Honestly, as a horizontal player Warframe is pretty good... Except when it listens to the hardline vertical progression meta chasers, who seem to be entrenched in the idea that it's their game and it should be designed around them.
I've played and enjoyed both types of games. However, I'm in my 30s, and when I started playing games, they were played simply to have fun. I find that a lot of vertical progression games aren't attempting to be fun, nor are they generally good. They mostly just jingle keys in front of your face in order to trigger very cheap dopamine hits. They want you to feel like trash in order to make you want to prove that they're worth being on top. Especially when PvP is involved. It's extremely predatory and honestly immoral in many cases. That doesn't make all horizontal progression games good in comparison, but something like GW2 never attempts to mess with your brain in that way. You play to have fun, take things at your own pace and do whatever you want to do. And sure, having so many options available to you can be overwhelming at times, but I'd take that over being exploited and manipulated by vertical progression games any damn day.
And that's the problem with this video. Josh used a badly designed vertical progression system (what you described) and assigned it to all games with vertical progression. It's not the rule he makes it out to be.
All that but the complete opposite. Horizonal progression caters to casual pick flowers crowd. No thanks, I want to be the best and not dick around with kumbyah circle jerks.
You hit on something very relevant to my experience playing EverQuest, which is a game that has both too much power creep and feature creep. If I logged into Live EQ today, not only would all of my items be outdated and nearly useless, but I would have no idea what I was doing because so many features and systems have changed. That's why I play the Time-Locked Progression servers every year. It keeps me in my power and feature comfort zone, which may be the real reason I enjoy it so much.
Excellent video & thank you for the free pack! Guild Wars 1 & 2 have been just about my two favorite MMOs of all time, so I'm glad to hear how much you enjoy 2 as well. I never really thought of the Horizontal / Vertical before when playing MMOs, but now a LOT of my choices in games have started to make sense.
An important point I think was missed when discussing horizontal progression is the importance of in-game cosmetics. While those can seem trivial, think about FFXIV, a game that is about 80% vertical progression, and how much effort people put into running older content to obtain glamours, mounts, and furniture. Those can become a easy form of creating horizontal progression for older content that keeps it relevant well beyond the point where the gear is no longer the "best" thing.
That's a thing that I hate about WoW. I want to grab cosmetics from older dungeons but, since I'm way above their level, the process is super boring and I dont enjoy it.
To be fair, talking about doing old content for glamours in 14 I think deviates from the discussion topic. Getting a glamour isn't really "progression" in any sense. I think if you wanted to discuss running old content for horizontal progression's sake, I feel Blue Mage is the content that really would be the topic of discussion. Old raids done at level award titles and mounts, and many spells you can learn are not inherently stronger than another. Flamethrower mechanically the same damage as Electrogenesis from an expansion later, as well as Feculent Flood from another expansion after. Blue Mage has some vertical progression ofc, but the way its spells are designed are very horizontal compared to the level of content you actually are running EDIT: My word choice about glamour collecting not being progression "in any sense" is quite far from what I intended. It certainly is a valid form of personal progression but I do not believe it to be a designed progression system proper, in the case of 14 specifically that is.
@@RaizearcheI disagree that it deviates from the topic. Content is content. There have been times in Monster Hunter Rise where I started doing lower-level hunts because I just wanted to collect every armor set for the sake of doing it. I'll admit that progression is still a factor since armors have a unique collection of skills on them, but the primary purpose was simply to do everything there is to do.
@@Raizearche why would obtaining costmetics not be progression? just because you are not getting power, does not mean you arent progressing you experience the story and challenge on the way to that cosmetic and the end reward improves the variety of things you can use
One thing that is great about elite specs in GW2: To unlock those, you need points that you can earn by doing differing special tasks on the maps. If you come back to GW2 after a new expansion and thus new specs released, you immediately have some task to work towards: earn those points to unlock the new specs to try. You still have a lot of freedom to achieve this (esp. if you still got stuff from previous expansions open), but at least you got a rough direction and can ease into the experience while you unlock the new specs.
Loved the video, i was really looking forward a way to really understand how horizontal progression works since i've always played vertial mmos up until now and i am willing to give gw2 my all! Also thanks for the xp boost link i didn't even know it was a thing! Claimed and subbed to you !
A great topic and something I love to pick apart with friends. To go a layer deeper to this too you have to think about players who manage to hybridize and enjoy both forms of progression with aspects of both. There are major 2 things when picking your game and thats; what form of progression does it involve and then, in what ways do I enjoy progressing. I personally prefer vertical progression alot more, but I recognize and respect the virtues of horizontal and I take my time and slow down to enjoy my progression and smell the daisies when I am playing even vertical games. I love this topic, well done!
I am fond of a mix. Ideally a very low scaling vertical with a few routes to increase. I like having to make choices between bigger numbers and unique effects. In team pvp especially, if there are more choices, there are more interesting outcomes. If a game is too vertical, there is always a correct answer and you have fewer variations of the fight to react to. If the game has too many unique effects, however, they become overly difficult to balance.
I much prefer horizontal progression, though I do enjoy having some vertical progression layered on top of it. I'm still into Pokemon because it does just that. Leveling and evolution are the only systems that are purely vertical, while unlocking additional encounters and moves is much more horizontal. I guess I could also use the weapons in Souls games as an example. The difference in movesets and stat scaling means collecting weapons is mostly horizontal, while upgrading an individual weapon or stats is the vertical layer on top.
Facts. As someone who likes making builds and such, a lot of the newer mmorpg aren't as appealing to me as something like Ragnarok Online that allowed for variety in builds and playstyle even for the same class.
they sort of sabotaged their own Weight Trade-off rules by having a Ring of Havel though, and then ruined the "gains" too by making heavier armors mostly worthless in later games. ...such a shame
@@iller3 Honestly I'm all about Fashion Souls, with armor being pretty minimal in stats considering you can already increase your survivability by leveling vitality.
As a long time Lineage 2 player myself it was never more clear how bad Lineage 2's progression system these days has become. Not only is it 100% vertical progression, but it's vertical progression with feature creep and no direction. There are SO MANY things that you need to be doing to reach that vertical progression goal and the game does a horrible way of teaching you. Not only that, but with how horribly P2W it has become, even someone with a lot of money would have no idea where to start spending either. It's just horribly designed by all standards. In its prime it was an amazing vertical system, but now not so much.
FireFall, an MMO shooter that's no longer around, in it's early days had a great horizontal system in place. The world was truly open, with dynamic events appearing in every corner created by the game itself, like a mini-dungeon opening, or a random road encounter, or *literal city-hub sieges.* As well as player made ones, for example, you could use a "Scanhammer" to survey nearby terrain for crafting materials to mine, then call down a huge drill (called Thumper) on that location (again, anywhere in the world) that needs to be defended from waves of mobs as it mines resources, and the longer you defend it - the bigger it's mineral reward would be for all players that participated. It's class system was awesome too, you had 5 class archetypes with 2 sub-classes each, *and you could swap between them freely at any time,* while still being useful at any point of the game. And then they decided to scrap all of that, and went for a good-old-rotten vertical, level locked progression system, with static quests and no mining or crafting at all. The game was shut down shortly after, lol.
Man, I've only recently been exposed to this channel, but I LOVE this content! I love MMO's, and I've just never really seen another channel that does a true deep-dive into design choices like this. This may have honestly become my favorite channel, almost overnight!
While I do enjoy vertical design, I'm definitely someone who enjoys the process more. If a normal vertical player consume content so they can become stronger, I become stronger so I can unlock more content. I especially love the leveling process in MMORPG, unlocking new areas, learning new spells and abilities, seeing my character go from a complete novice to a capable master. It's just so much fun to experience.
I've been both in the same game at different times. For example in FFXIV I have done progression raiding, but right now I'm focusing on gathering and collecting pretty things for my character to wear. I always feel my relationship with MMOs is healthier when I take a more casual attitude.
FF14 has a good balance between the two, its mostly a vertical progression, but a lot of people love to do things just to make new outfits and stuff. old gear still has a use.
@@Sniperbear13 This is why I settled with FF14 even tho I'm a horizontal progression type of player. They somehow managed to acomodate both types of players in the game, it has content for both types to enjoy and feel good about it.
@@Sniperbear13 I agree. Even outside of outfits, things like tribal quests give mounts and entertaining stories, while bonus content like Eureka or Bozja deliver a twist on the combat formula that you can't get elsewhere (via use of Logos / Forgotten actions).
FF14 doesnt really have much vertical progression though...its a horizontal content game basically u arrive in endgame and ur already good to go with ur gear.. and u get some little bit better stuff from savage raids.. what else is there to progress?
I don't even play MMOs, but I follow you for this kind of discussion of basic game design principles and mechanics. This is very much applicable to single player ROGs as well, and really helped me articulate what I had been feeling for a long time time why I prefer certain games over others. I'm definitely a horizontal progression person all the way, because what it does is expand player options and adds to your repertoire and opens synergies with existing tools in your toolkit, rather than superceding what you already have.
Horizontal player for sure. I've been playing guild wars 2 for almost its entire life span and I was a big fan of Guild Wars 1. I loved exploring and discovering new skills and builds which are different but not necessarily better than what I had before. I love finding new armor and weapons which have different uses or open up different builds. Vertical progression only keeps me interested for so long. Eventually I burn out and I stop caring about the number increase of this skill and I begin to be disillusioned by the fact that many of my favorite skills I've grown to love are either replaced or obsolete.
Complete opposite for me. I feel I have nothing to strive for in gw2 now. Got all my gear and my play styles. Nothing new drops for me that I need or even want. Can't craft anything better anymore haha. I love going through these Comments and seeing what people enjoy!
@@dillonvillon That is where the elite specializations and the new stat combos come in. You have 27 elite specs you can gear. And many of the specs can use several different stat combos to unlock additional builds. Like Firebrand with Condition Firebrand using Viper gear, Condition Quickness Firebrand using Ritualist gear, Heal Firebrand using Harrier gear, And Tank Firebrand using Minstrel gear. They are all using level 80 gear of the ascended rarity but one is not necessarily more powerful than another but they excel at different tasks.
I feel like I'd enjoy horizontal progression more than vertical if the actual experiences were flawless. I love playing a combat medic during a big tough world boss battle. I hate when other players cheese a boss by having a group of 5 summon it before a group of 50 pop in to stomp it.
I'm confused on what you are specifically referring to? If you are talking about GW2(since it is the most popular horizontal game), then it has dynamic scaling. Bosses scale based on the amount of players engaged to it not the amount who spawned it.
@@frosthammer917 Said scaling is better in theory than in practice. GW2's is notoriously finicky, leading to either not scaling enough, or scaling too much, or having people not participating still leading to scaling and causing the most important map-level meta events to fail.
@@FellshardYT When I played it, we even had this Priest of Batlh event-ending bug injected into the game where Veteran Risen Subjugators would instantly cast a massive FIELD of boss-level death wells and kill every NPC almost instantly. Anet wouldn't even tell us it was a bug nomatter how many of us reported it. And then the Submarines also started getting bugged, and they never responded to any of us on those either. It was a dark time and I quit for good shortly after that.
@@iller3 Yeah, they sweep most major breaking bugs under the rug once they realize they don't know what's actually happening and have no idea how to fix it.
I never actually thought about these things. Now I finally understand why I enjoyed playing Guild Wars 2 way more than I ever enjoyed playing WoW, even though my "progress" in WoW was greater. What a great video! So I guess I am into horizontal MMOs then.
Love this video! There's something (somewhat) related to this I'm wondering if you'd be interested in talking about. Dead cities in MMO's. In the MMO I play people either congregate around the starter cities or the endgame city of each expansion. What are some good ways to keep at least a decent population in cities usually accessible through the middle of progression?
I'd love to see that too! It's really a pet peeve of mine when I get to some supposedly major city with lots of resources and trade, and then it's just empty. Even worse when an NPC specifically says something like "you'll love this city, it's so bustling and full of people from all walks of life!". I get a similar feeling too when there's like a big enemy camp right nearby and some NPC saying "man, someone better stop these cultists or whatever before they take storm our city and begin taking over the world!", but as a player you know that no one has fought those cultists in years and they're always gonna be standing by the city gates, locked in eternal combat with some guard.
I think you should focus on a single thing and stick to it. If you can't pick a weapon type or something along those lines, pick a stat. Which do you prefer? Damage, attack speed, A certain weapon effect,etc? Pick one of those and look towards advancing that and only that. If you declare something as a 'Best choice' all by your own, then you won't have to worry because you already know what you wanted and needed.
It's one of the reasons that I love the first 2 expansions of Everquest 1. The world gets bigger, there are more choices of places to go and items to get, and aside from the highest level of gear (only attainable by the most dedicated of guilds), there isn't that much vertical progression at the top.
I still think EQ1 up until PoP was the best MMO ever made. Maybe not going back to play it now but the design and world and everything cant be beat. Ive said for years you could remake EQ1 in WoWs engine and itd be the best game of all time
Build variety doesn't mean anything as long as some Dps classes deal 25% more damage than others or some support build do more damage than actual supposed damage builds.
These definitions (and some of the associations) are a little off, although there is a lot of merit to this video. Vertical progression in game design is about improvement, getting better at the game, whether that be overall or along a single path among several. This can manifest as classes, tiers in skill or ability trees, levels, stat increases, better gear, and upgrades. This _includes_ new abilities of slight to moderate changes to gameplay that improve your ability to perform certain game loops. Vertical progression is not restricted to numerical increases. Horizontal progression in game design is about increasing your repertoire of ways to engage with the game. This means abilities with moderate to major differences in how you interact with things (eg short versus mid versus long-ranged, fast yet weak versus slow yet powerful, targeting enemies versus allies, single-target versus a few targets versus large aoes, damage and/or healing and/or status effects, burst versus DoT, etc), or expanding the range of things that you can interact with entirely (eg flight, environmental interactions, and tLoZ items in general). These are _often_ universal additions, applicable across many to all players even when vertical systems are also present (eg, usable and beneficial for most/all classes). Horizontal progression generally means that it does not improve your other abilities but adds a new one. This is a spectrum, not a hard binary. New abilities or gear through vertical progression can also add in horizontal progression (eg a new skill with both superior damage _and_ status effects, mobility effects, or other features, or superior gear with playstyle-altering benefits), whereas horizontal progression can occur as independent vertical progression along different features or areas of the game. There is also a difference between vertical/horizontal _character_ progression and vertical/horizontal progression along _other_ game axes, such as narrative/plot/story (furthering one grander story versus multiple smaller), map (going deeper into or adding onto one area or plotline versus accessing multiple), social (rising high in one guild versus getting along with many groups), and so on. Most games have multiple axes of progression simultaneously, *especially* mmorpgs. While vertical progression _tends_ to lend itself more to goal-oriented gameplay and/or motivations, it is not categorically so. Some people enjoy the journey and/or process of improvement, and a fixation on horizontal progression is still a fixation on progress or accomplishment (a goal) rather than process. Vertical progression systems lend themselves to goal-oriented mentality because who and what a player can engage with tends to be limited based on their vertical progression as, setting aside when adequate vertical progression renders someone an altogether non-viable candidate for certain content, it is an opportunity cost for others who are at the far end of the progression line to take someone lower down the rung (costing them time and stress compared to someone further along) or sometimes a competitive disadvantage (pvp). It is more a symptom of the problem of designing mmorpgs so heavily around endgame than it is about vertical progression in itself. Similarly, while horizontal progression has its own sort of ease and casualness with its own type of flow state, not needing to worry about 'keeping up' to nearly the same degree, completing this can easily become a checklist and effectively a collection of smaller, directionless vertical progression systems. Vertical progression systems enable their own form of ease of mind in removing the need to impose (possibly arbitrary) goals onto the game and enable its own type of flow state in relaxing into a single clear activity and objective.
I used to be a verticle progression player; I wanted to reach max power and max gear ASAP. But as I've matured and gotten a bit older, I find that the experience of playing and having fun has more value to me than just grinding for "moar powa". That's why I keep going back to Guild Wars 2, it's just such a pleasant change of pace from the constant grind of many other MMOs and I always really enjoy playing, even if I end up not really "getting much done". Just playing is reward enough.
@@TheUnseenPath What now? I have full Ascended on my main character, so I'm not sure what you mean by "there is gear that is far better than what you have". There's no gear that has stats better than Ascended.
LOL! I just watched the clip of Josh saying 'I was gonna have Guild Wars 2 in my video anyway!' and I take a peek at the description before watching the video and see 'Thank you Guild Wars 2 for sponsoring this video!' and burst out laughing. I'm actually waiting for the game to go on sale, if it's like half off and there's a link we'll see what's up. Edit: The madlad even says it in the beginning of the video. Also as soon as he started describing feature creep I started thinking of Path of Exile, that game is so dense to get into. Even after figuring out how to build your character just the simple act of farming items has so many seasons worth of completixy layered over it that it's incomprehensible
@@FellshardYT Or come back and remember why you loved that game so much. Happens to me every time I take a half-year break off gaming - first week usually is just being surprised how the game is still so nice to play, haha
@@DanieliusGoriunovas I have a group I still play with once a week. My opinion has only been cemented that I have no desire to play outside of that context.
What I love about GW2 is that no matter what I do, EVERYTHING has value. Running around the world, doing some mining and events, organised World versus World battles, structured PvP, Fractals, Raids, Jumping Puzzles... Each activity is vastly different and each rewards me for doing it. So when I start the game, I simply do what I feel like, which results in me never burning out on the game.
I feel like people underestimate how the fundamental _loot acquisition structure_ of GW2 works. The fact that "Ascended"-Tier equipment, i.e. the stuff with the best stats, can be assembled from industrial amounts of scrap is doing a lot of legwork
@@CErra310 But getting pinks in GW2 can be obtained from any of the activities. You can craft them, Get them from Fractals, Get them from the raid like system, get them from pvp I will say that there is some P2W in some of the systems or Pay to go faster if you dont want to call it pay to win, but everything you do in GW2 eventually leads to pink gear.
@@fabuloushetero1228 that's not the point. The point is that due to this crafting system you don't have to play towards the goal of earning ascended equipment to eventually get it.
as a GW2 vet since launch, I appreciate nothing more than knowing that my gear and progression in the game will NEVER be invalidated. My legendary armor and weapons? Always the best. My level? always maxed. My class preferences? Always relevant. GW2 is a game that wants you to play it as a game for the sake of being a game and any progress you earn is yours forever. I don't know that I could ever play a vertical progression game again now that I'm so used to never having to worry about it. It's just great.
Legendary will always be the best because you can change the stats. It's vertical progression to even GET legendary weapons/armor though, and it just adapts to the power creep which is, well, still vertical progression. If you think I'm wrong, look at all the players who have to re-gear to Ritualist after End of Dragons was released. People who don't have legendary armor and weapons have to go obtain a complete new set of gear to stay end-game relevant.
@@ikpts ascended is very much enough. New builds coming up and needing new stats its not power creep lol. Power creep is more stats, not different stats. And literally only specter you need ritualist gears to make work the alac build. Name one other class. Guardian doesn't need it. You may want it, but you certainly can still do 100% quickness with no effort and do dmg. You use the word HAVE alot. There is WANT in GW2. You don't HAVE to get legendaries. You can get 10 sets of full ascended and it's astronomically cheaper than legendary and will cover any build you might play for like how many years?
And how is getting a legendary vertical progression? How is unlucking more options that work on the same power level vertical progression? What does horizontal progression even mean then?
This is why I like PVP games like overwatch because Your strength is not determined by your stats, it’s determined by the unique abilities each character has and your skill. Each character has advantages and disadvantages but no one is stronger than anyone else, I wish they would apply this concept to an MMORPG
I honestly like both. i had great fun hunting the tier sets in wow to become as strong as possible and i believe it is necessary to have a sense of improving your character even after reaching max level. But i also greatly enjoy exploring every corner of the world and fighting various difficult opponents in GW2 and I believe the variety of content on the highest level has a place in mmos thats is equally as important as continously becoming stronger.
When I see horizontal progression I right away think of Final Fantasy XI, I find it hard to believe any other game did horizontal progression better than FFXI at lvl 75 cap. Your equipment was situational and could be relevant for years. I am suprised this wasnt an example in the video.
FFXI is a large blind spot for him. I think he's only mentioned it once ever in all the videos I've watched. That being said, its not like playing today will give you a lot of insight into lv 75.
At *level cap*, though. Thats endgame, at which point progression necessarily HAS to fan out. The core gameplay loop for the beginning to mid to end of the experience of progression is what the video's really about, I think. Youre definitely right that FFXI's combat options are insanely broad and dynamic to experiment with, though.
I like a vertical progression focus but with some horizontal sparkled ontop of it, like cosmetics, housing, maybe guild housing, etc. I like to get stronger and dominate
I love your breakdown of the benefits of both! Personally as I go through phases of being able to play a lot and then not at all, I really enjoy the horizontal progression system of Guild Wars 2. I can leave for a year, and come right back to where I was. Of course there are new things to learn, but the older content has not become irrelevant.
The reset feature that came with Shadowlands in WoW where they put everyone back to level 50 (with alike, dealing 600 or so damage) and going back to 60 again felt great. How some games are going now are the way of Tarkov, a wipe every few months so that vertical progression is constant, but guaranteed forever.
Been playing GW2 first time recently it's one of the most casual MMO's I've played but in a good way I enjoy it very much. It respects your time wonderfully and it's quite fun to play with the map exploration and mounts.
This video came at an interesting time for me. I had to decide which mmo to play. It was either bdo with the vertical progress or gw2 with horizontat. Seeing this clip pretty much sustain my point of quiting bdo. Even though the game is beautiful and the combat is great, I can't seem to grind for more than 1 hour before I get bored. Compared to gw2, where I can just explore maps, have 10 alts and no worries at all. I guess I am the target audience of the horizontal mmorpgs.
not even gonna lie you have singlehandedly really made me want to get into mmorpg's, and i think i might try out a bit of runescape and see what its like because i've never played it before
FF14 is such an interesting example of this I feel. It's predominantly *very* vertical, there is side content but much of it is gated behind the core vertical progression (levels, ilvl, and the MSQ), _however_ the journey there is so damn enjoyable (and the mechanics and culture encourage experienced players to do old content and help others up) that it becomes much more about that journey than the destination.
@@mylittlevangoghcantbethisc5848 ff14 is pretty much purely vertical lol... as soon as new content comes out old gear is fully obsolete. That's like the definition of vertical.
The thing with FFXIV is what while its systems are definitely in the vertical camp, the transmog is so good that old gear can keep value and be worth getting. Best example is the 5.2 crafted set, which is still massively used as a transmog because female characters look gorgeous in it. Same with relic and ultimate raid weapons.
Vroom/Benoit That's kind of my point. _Mechanically_ FF14 is almost purely vertical, but there are enough reasons (both mechanical and social) for old content to remain relevant _to players_ that it takes on a more horizontal feel in practice. For example in a few mins I'm going to be re-running Coils of Bahamut with a friend purely to experience the story, there's _no_ vertical incentive to it, but the social aspect that the story of the raid provides is strong enough to keep it relevant despite that. I guess.. it's mechanically vertical, but socially horizontal.
IMO horizontal is better to play with friends and vertical to play alone, and it can be a real pain if you play it viceversa, having to wait for a friend to catch up with you (vertical) or been alone with no clear patch ahead can really turn even the best mmo into a bad experience.
i dont know, im a bit confused about the use of the word process here, i feel like people that like vertical progression are interested in process as well, for me at least i prefer vertical but not because i want to reach the top, its mostly because i enjoy the progress of my character, the reward isnt just reaching the top but also the incremental upgrades i get over time, i play horizontal games the same way but the difference is that getting another gear piece doesnt feel like im improving my character it becomes more of the same. Josh also says process over reward but isnt the reward also the thing that you are aiming for in horizontal progression, the reward of getting a new item that changes how you play your class, you still do a content because of the reward not because of the process, if you only care about the process you can have that in a vertical progression game by having options to level sync
Thats valid... I get from you that the process of getting your character stronger is the form of progression you like. And thats a form of progression that a lot of people enjoy , even tho i only play gw2 but i know that ill enjoy that too Thats not the only form of progression tho What im trying to say is that you can progress your character in many ways and when you have alot of ways to progress you will have different experiences thus the "process" is more varied and personal and i feel thats more true when it comes to horizontal progression system For example The progression i enjoy in gw2 is to be more skilled at certain classes, collect titles and more fashion At some point my mindset for progressing my account was to unlock all mounts (still a working process, i decided to take a break after finishing the skyscale grind lol) Map completion is also a form of progressing my characters in the world that they live in Not forgetting about the mastery system progression (still a long way to go for me) In the end its more about your gaming experience Thx for reading my ted talk
As I understand it, you’re basically describing the process of vertical progression. You may enjoy the process of going from a copper dagger to a silver dagger, then eventually getting a steel dagger, but the goal is still the same: to increase power. You likely enjoy each step up the ladder because each step makes you a little bit stronger. However, I believe the process in terms of horizontal progression isn’t about unlocking a skill or feature, but rather the kinds of play that you can do with that skill or feature. Basically, the goal is not to unlock a thing, but to do a thing; to have new experiences and stories within the game world. And there’s nothing wrong with either mindset. Peoples brains are usually wired to lean more towards one side or the other, and every game uses a mix of both styles of progression.
@@TheCardinalbiggles but games with vertical progression also can have build diversity if they want so that people can change so they can experience content in a different way. I think how people choose to play it depends on them more then it depends on the game being vertical or horizontal, people can play a vertical game for the process while other people can play horizontal games for the rewards, at the end of the day both types have content that has certain rewards at the end to encourage people to participate.
@@TheNovgorodian Oh absolutely! Like the guy in the video said, vertical/horizontal is just a way to describe whether a game is more tall than wide, or if it’s wider than it is tall. Every game has a mix of both. I used to play og vanilla WoW back in the day just to run around exploring and looking for cool new places to go fishing, and WoW is almost as vertical progression-y as it gets.
I m so glad that I found this channel.. I was always attracted to MMOs all the way from when Perfect World came to Brazil (10+ years ago), now thanks to you I know why I liked so much and what aspects Idid like
This was very insightful and deeper than this topic covered. Thanks for covering this, as far as games go, this is useful design information as devs aim to hardness the optimal challenge of both the horizontal and vertical landscape.
My first real MMO experience was Tera, which was a *heavily* Vertical oriented game. But the pacing of those patches that made your BIS Visionmaker gear obsolete gave me whiplash, plus if you didn't have the top tier gear you'd often get gatekept out of basic content that was required TO get the BIS gear. Eventually the gear creep got so high to the point that any break whatsoever was extremely punishing, and not even your achievements / laurels were safe. Because they frequently removed old dungeons and other content, the achievements went with them. And instead of cumulative achievement points they'd often go down after content was deleted, losing your hard work and progress and forcing you to do it all over again. I hated that a lot, and got frustrated as hell after my Diamond laurel got reset for the fifth or sixth time. Then the publishers decided to fast track the leveling to zoom you up to level cap so you could get on that Korean grind faster, destroying any semblance of a storyline and removing countless side storylines in the process. It left the game feeling barren, where the only thing to do was to play the marketplace like a slot machine or afk in Highwatch waiting for groups that would usually kick you out if your gear score wasn't at the top. I do not miss ANY of that. I currently play GW2, and I must say I love the horizontal progression a lot more. I like seeing my mastery number go up. I like collecting achievements. I enjoy the terrible achievement related cosmetics. I'm slowly building up my Legendary Armory for the sake of convenience and, when I'm not learning raids, I'm usually just chilling in a city roleplaying, or trying to git gud at griffon stunt flying. And it's very satisfying to know that the legendary gear I've gotten will be relevant now and ten years from now, and I can just focus on the exploration and gameplay and having fun the way I want to play, not how the game dictates that I play. I'll also add that seeing old dungeons and content in Tera that my friends and I had great fun with being wiped from existence for the sake of 'power creep' always sucked (RIP Wonderholme). Meanwhile dungeons in GW2 scale you down so they can still be challenging and relevant regardless if you're at cap or not.
I'd love it if the designers went back to old dungeons and made a "heroic mode" or something similar. Give the mobs updated mechanics so i could enjoy again the classics such as Ascalonian Catacombs but with new gameplay.
@@MrTomEdo Yeah, they refined the currency for dungeons but the dungeons themselves need a polish. They can obviously do it, the updated Tower of Nightmares with PoF bounty mechanics and cc bars is proof of that.
I'm a type of person that stays motivated so long as I feel like I'm making progress I can see. An example, mowing the lawn. I can look back at areas I already went over with my lawn mower. I can see the progress I'm making and that motivates me to keep going. MMO's for me need this same quality. I also highly value visual progression. I'm not sure if this makes me a vertical or horizontal player.
So far both can fit you. Horizontal progress enables you to do more things, reach new places or do new kinds of content. You can do more, and you can see it. It is like being able to mawing lawn in eares that were previously blocked. Using these new abilities can be supported visually, but sometimes it is more a matter of "you know that you can". Vertical progression is usually paired with visual progression. Abilities look cooler, gear looks more powerful. But that is not guaranteed and in fact especially vertical progression MMOs releasing new expansions tend to replace your BIS awesome-gear of the previous expansion with normal-guy-gear themed to the new expansion while leveling.
Hey Josh, I've been currently playing a mobile retro RPG called Orna RPG. It uses a GPS system but doesn't limit resource generatio. Therefore, despite being built around real-world geography, you can 100% play through it sitting still. The game does so much with so little, and it has been doing quite well for itself, I think it will make for a very quick and nice Worst MMO Ever episode. Have a nice day broski
I played GW2 when it first came out in 2012 and beat the main game and all of its content by February of 2013, just as Fractals was becoming a thing. I didn't play for many years and have now started playing GW2 again from the beginning with a brand new character and the game is sooooooo different. It is filled with so many features (they even retooled all the professions) and various types of achievements and dailies and currencies and all that, that it feels like a completely different game.
There is more nuance between both. I enjoy power, getting the best stuff, achieving big things and I also value the experience itself, the journey, just daily play and exploration and variety. I personally don't like the idea of "end game" in any of these regards. And ever increasing numbers never seemed like a good idea to me. For me personally a system where progression is part of every day normal game play without the idea of grinding to "end game" or maxing out everything as fast as possible BEFORE starting to "play" the game would be ideal. A game where the progression and customization is a lot deeper and more long-term with a less steep but still meaningful curve. But that is hard to pull of correctly and it's also a problem of player mindset. As grind and "power gaming" is ultimately something players may want to put on themselves and is hard to limit no matter how long-term you plan things to be. It seems to me a lot more people nowadays don't have the attention for or don't want to invest the time for longer-term progression. They want everything and as fast as possible. And then they get bored when they get to the point where they have nothing to do anymore. In a way it's a self-defeating attitude. I don't like gaining power without meaning but I similarly don't enjoy it when there is nothing to achieve and work on either. I'm similar on the topic of PvP. I like and enjoy PvP but I want it to have meaning in the world and be part of many possible play styles in the overall economy and not just for the sake of PvP and "pwning" people in itself.
After starting GW2 all those years ago, I can't be bothered to play a game again that simply makes all my progress irrelevant with every expansion. GW2 specifically is rather slow with providing new stuff to do, but I took at 5 year break and after coming back I could immediately dive into all the new stuff they added, and there were other people doing all of them. It's definitely a more casual experience compared to chasing the carrot over and over or risk falling behind, but it fits my personal playstyle a lot more.
I started MMO's in EQ and DAoC. Back then verticle progression was pretty much all there was. When GW2 came out it changed things. I have played it since day 1 with breaks in between but all of my gear has stayed BIS the whole time. The metas change, dps/support may go up or down but my gear is always still great. That is why I love GW2.
Vertical Progression is fine as long as the Goal post isnt moved constantly. Which is sadly the case in MMos like WoW. Thats why i play Gw2. If i put time and effort into something, that time and effort isnt made pointless by the next patch/expack.
Worth to know it's only artificial difference. A marketing tool. It's apples and oranges. Let me explain: In vertical design MMO you need to work on next gear upgrade to be able to take part in higher level activities or be able to raid, or just raid/do stuff faster. Usually it's covered by power of the gear. A bad example of this is WoW (horrible gear trademill), and a good one is FF XIV (everybody always have easy access to gear to do all new stuff. You just work on gear before NEXT stuff is released, making it nice and smooth and very casual friendly). Now in old days people were bitching about that and so came GW2 with "horizontal progression" and "no grear trademill, once you have exotics you can do all content, no need for new gear". Reality is however that GW2 only changed one trademill for other. For example: you need go grind certain masteries to be able to do some stuff on map (HOT) and activities, you need to grind a lot of stuff to be able to get flying mounts (where in WoW or FF XIV they are just there), you need to grind ascended gear to do Fractals, you need to grind gold to even get an Exotic gear like Viper, Celestial etc. which cost WAY BEYOND anything new player can hope to get by the time he is 80. This prevents tons of builds to be able to be played at 80 at exotic level. in FF XIV for example there is no such issue becasue game always gives you gear at the end of each new story that allows you to immideitly enjoy everything new stuff since till next one you will easly and without grind get new gear. Funny is that GW2 was all abot "horizontal activity" and yet they added Ascended gear that is 5% better than exotic. Some say "it's only 5%". Doesn't matter. That's vertical progression here that is expected if you want to do Fractals. I am playing GW2 right now (level 80 doing HOT and POF as Mesmer) and I am also fan of FF XIV which is my main MMO in last 3 years (current break becasue I done all stuff), refugee from WoW many years ago, and I played other MMOs too. GW2 is actually a very grindy game, though a lot of this stuff they do right. However, their gem store became absolutely riddiculous in last years where they put best, coolest and flashiest skins in game. Fashion is pretty much only gem store with rotation like in Korean MMOs to force people to buy stuff. Also creating problem (low inventory/banks slots) to offer paid solution (gem store). GW2 is also whale dream. If you are whale you can immidietly have best gear (celestial/viper/trailblazer), best runes, best sigils, legendary weapons, more bank slots, more inventory slots, better looking character, access to rarest cosmetics (infusions etc.). In FF XIV everything has to be earned in gameplay (99% of it). GW2 is definitely not classical P2W but certainly is P2Skip The Grind We Created so You Feel Like Spending Money to Skip That is Attractive. Overall I think even GW team realized that horizontal progression alone won't make game last long so they added a lot of needed grind to be able to enjoy content just in different skin. You don't need gear but hell yeah you have to grind other stuff to do content in full or enjoy it. In the end it's apple vs oranges. Progression is a must of MMO. For me it doesn't matter if you grind for gear or for other stuff, grind is a grind. It's same stuff if it blocks me from doing something in game. Still I think FF XIV is best when it comes to not being grindy and just respecting people time in game. But GW2 definitely wins as best open world designed MMO. Though it has horrible, horrible dungeon/raid system in game with it's archaic LFG "tool" (more like stone...). And it's raids are just bigger dungeons. And sadly GW2 story is medicore with above average moments at best. Love your content Josh. Shame I don't live in UK, I would love to chat about MMOs genre in nowadays market with you. Keep up good work! :)
I prefer horizontal progression because it doesn't drive engagement through FOMO. Constantly having the looming threat of the next expansion invalidating all your hard earned gear and even invalidating the content you paid for can quickly make the game feel like a job. You end up playing not because you enjoy the game but only because sunk cost fallacy makes you think you have to reach the carrot on the stick or else all the time, effort and money you've invested until now will be meaningless. With horizontal progression there is no such pressure. Old content doesn't go anywhere and, if you take a break or you don't play at the same pace as other people, your character/gear will still be relevant. You can just play the content that you want to play whenever you want just because you enjoy it. That is a big factor of why I play GW2. If I feel like it, I can just go back and play stuff from the first expansion and I won't be wasting my time because the gameplay and rewards are still relevant and other people also still play it. Or I can just do mount races and build giant custom tracks with my guild for a few months and when the next end game encounter drops we can still immediately hop in because there is no falling behind. And because GW2 doesn't have a sub fee, you never feel like you're losing out by taking a break or not playing as much as you feel is necessary for the sub to be worth it.
That supporter name screen is a like a shotgun blast to the face :P I can't wait to see the art in the end with an old Japanese man inscribing their names on a single grain of rice haha
![Why do people play MMO's solo? [MMOPINION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AcGezDYNLIU/mqdefault.jpg)
Use this link to get an XP boost pack and mini pet for your new Guild Wars 2 character!
www.inflcr.co/SHE3Q
Comment below once you have redeemed the XP boost pack and I will select one lucky person to receive the Ultimate Edition of GW2 on Steam worth $100!
Code redeemed. Thank you. :)
redeemed
Redeemed a key. Haven't played the game in ages, guess it's time to check it out again.
This was a nice reminder that i really should try playing GW2 again, the mount movement really puts other games not even just mmos to shame.
Thanks for the code and for the always awesome content!
code redeemed!
“an expansion isn’t actually expanding on the game when it’s the only relevant part of the game to actually play”
I love when you do these videos because i feel like this is your niche! This type of analysis of games and genre’s is where you shine and I can only hope that other companies are watching and take notes.
Well, at least one is. 😀
I've always thought that as well. Classic example being WoW, where each expansion limits the majority of the gameplay to a handful of new zones and dungeons. That game is missing out on so much more value because there is literally nothing incentivizing people to go back and do stuff in the older zones. Guild Wars 2 is a great example of such a system being implemented pretty well.
@@MonstersMemories A few are. GW2 obviously, but FF14 has a ton of people who go back and do previous expansion stuff every single day, basically.
@@Tehstampede Yes I agree! I actually did a big post about this on MMO champion. The title of the post was If only WoW had gone in another direction. Basically talking about having more horizontal content that didn’t render the previous content irrelevant. Like seeing events within the game such as in guild wars two. We are maybe there is an attack on the village that you help to defend against. And then afterwords there is another event to help rebuild that same town. The game could reward items based on your actual character level so there is always incentive to do these things. Also if they it is horizontal progression in the form of mastery points or some thing that could be used in different areas like faster travel or different abilities with a dungeons or so on.
WoW is the pinnacle example of this quote. It's the oldest popular MMO with the most far reaching lore and worldbuilding. Yet simply all you do is just play those 5-6 zones in the most recent expansion. All the lore and the effort of the developers to craft these zones, stories, legendaries, dungeons etc of the prior 15 years years has been reduced to leveling zones.
In GW2 there are about 30-40 of end content zones at this point, and they are almost all still relevant. It offers just so much more content at this point.
I prefer horizontal, there's grind but its not to get up to the standard but rather to have options in that same standard and I like that freedom
AmeN
yeah I agree after playing vertical progression games for many years I have learned that horizontal can be just as enjoyable and even more so he because I don’t feel like the game is a job. I can play for a little while go do something else come back play for a couple hours do whatever and I’m not really missing anything because it’s all there for me whenever I come back I can just do different things on a horizontal path rather than feeling 1,000,000 miles behind everybody else on the vertical path because they have more time than I do to allocate towards a game.
Horizontal is almost always better. 😆
@@macdallanzero2145 Yeah well… you gotta go vertical first to really appreciate horizontal.
Main reason i love Souls games so much. While obviously there are weapons that can cheese everything, by design every weapon is viable to clear the game.
MMO-wise, FFXIV also does horizontal somewhat well. Even if the hardcore raiders cries about balance every single patch, especially for 6.2.
You know, every content creator says "I would not recommend something I don't personally like" in their sponsor segments. Josh is one of the few that I belive when he says it.
"I would not recommend something I don't personally like... Anyway, Raid Shadow Legends is an RP-" lmao
My biggest issue with vertical power creep is that it just gets old very quickly. One can only go through so many cycles of power creep reset. The way I felt at the end of Cataclysm is the same way I felt at the end of Pandaria and the way I felt at the beginning of Cataclysm is the same way I felt in Pandaria. It feels so articial when my power level just flucuates extremely predictably in set cycles. It stops me from feeling like I'm getting more powerful and more like the predictable ups and downs of a rollercoaster. Still fun, but not exactly exciting after a couple rides.
Especially when they gave you artifact weapons in Legion, I was told the system got canned after.
don't forget what it can do to an mmo that has (or pretends to have) a story (or multiple), once you kill god you can't go anywhere else.
Seeing Josh get the recognition he deserves is awesome and I'm happy to tag along for the ride, grats on the sponsor !
Thanks bro :D
I'm kind of a...diagonal player. I want to enjoy the process, but I also want there to be some point to what I'm doing. Being the absolute best doesn't matter to me much if at all, but just doing arbitrary content with little to no reward gets dull fairly quickly. That reward doesn't NEED to be stat-based necessarily, but there needs to be something beyond just the experience itself to avoid it wearing out its welcome.
IRL Crafts - knitting, sewing, woodworking, etc - have the same thing, "process" vs "project". No one is truly all one side or the other, most folks want some of both.
Someone who's purely horizontal/process would be happy restarting at the start of every session, arcade-style, and someone who's all about vertical/project [results] would be happy to just buy a max-level account, and never bother playing.
Some progress, some options, likely enjoying more of one or the other, that's where the majority of players lie.
I think the Ultimate Fights in XIV handle that style of reward really well. You get special weapons from defeating those fights and a title to say you have done it. Those weapons are mostly on par with the other strongest weapons in the game with the sole advantage of them having an extra materia slot. Not enough to make a difference other than 0.x% more damage, but enough to trigger the "oooo" factor.
@@magusware8721 No one really does Ultimate for the Weapon stats though. Just for the shiny glamour lol
Albion Online ;)
@@Eyrothath lol no. Albion online is the epitome of doing things that don’t matter. If you’re killed you lose all the armor and weapons you worked so hard to get…
Good to see this kind of video. It’s become increasingly rare over the last few months.
Now I’ve got to ask: where does Final Fantasy XIV fall on this?
I’m asking because it features both a climb for Power, but also expands in several directions, and older content stays relevant as you not only get synched down if needed, but the items gained can also be valuable as Glamour.
Plus, there are mounts and minions that are always worth chasing.
@@JackWolf1 that is still vertical progression. Vertical progression doesn't mean there can't be content that isn't about gaining power or equipment. Basically every MMO since WoW(and probably before but I don't know well enough to say for sure) has included some cosmetic collections or rewards. Like titles or mounts or skins or whatever else they've come up with. Some do it better and some worse but it is fairly universal.
But if the core progression of the game is about power then it is a vertical progression game.
@@JackWolf1 Agreed w the above, its absolutely vertical in the core gameplay loop. It works horizontal elements in by necessity. Youll find most games are a mix either way.
The level sync and roulette systems are just clever ways of covering for a clear weakness of the game's intended treadmill. Its not a bad thing necessarily, its just how it is.
Most MMO's have both systems in place to a greater or lesser degree, but are weighted to one or the other. good video, keep them coming!
I think your talking about a Balanced progression system. I think that's the word you wanted.
No shit
@@sevenhecks i would rather it balance on the side of cosmetics, makes power more important when you get it and less of a stat increase
Plateaus exist, ie tiers and expansions. The “Balance” is always there so that you can migrate and spread out players physically/logically. The problem is that you need vertical for popularity, but it’s a rush and has a significant drop once people have hit their own “wall”.
Horizontal games require a lot of creative material and creep. You might value the horizontal for the long term, but it needs a purpose. Because a game that is “too open” doesn’t attract patrons or customers.
I like the fact that I can take a break from Gw2 and still come back without my character being gimped.
Also, it’s nice to be able to jump around different maps and do different things depending on how I feel with everything still being relevant.
Absolutely. Every map in GW2 in still relevant, and so few MMOs can say that. Especially not the other big ones like WoW and FF14.
Also like having zero progression in a decade?
@DontHateMeCausImSexy zero progression? Someone hasn't played the game.
There may not be numbers to chase but there is still everything else. Legendary gear, mastery points, collections and achievements, etc. Not to mention new content every expansion.
@@finitesound Well said.
GW2 is also comparatively a small MMO for this very reason. The market pretty clearly dictates what there is demand for. But I'm glad there are options regardless
I always appreciate horizontal progression. It makes me go back to play again an again for a long time without any issue, unlike its counterpart which gives off massive FOMO and once I don't play for a certain period of time I just tell myself that I'm certainly behind everyone else and I just never touch the game again.
I am a huge fan of horizontal games. I'm also glad Fashion Wars 2 gets more attention. When it comes to horizontal experiences, that is the game to play. The rest of the guild is all stacked on legendaries that require months of grind? No problem, I can still keep up with my exotic/ascended gear while chasing new fashion choices from the expansions over stronger eq since the difference is not very high.
There is no difference in power between ascended and legendary. The only difference is convenience. So even those are horizontal progression.
@@256shadesofgrey also unique cosmetic
One thing i love about guild wars 2 is how your attacks change depending on your weapon. Just started, I'm an elementilist and uts described as a highly versatile class. You have up to 5 attacks, sigis not withstanding, but those attacks can change if you have a different weapon.you can also switch between 4 different elements, changing your attacks. Once you unlock the ability to switch weapons during combat, you now have at least 40 different attacks at any given time. Madness.
Seeing Guild Wars 2 sponsor Josh makes me so happy! I play GW2 since 2015 and back then it was so niche that after path of fire and the icebrood saga being announced I thought it would just die. But it didn’t! Arenanet really pulled themselves together, they reset their goals and now GW2 is thriving more than ever! It is truly great to see an mmo rise from the brink of death, especially such a great one. There has never been a better time to play GW2 than now.
I'm gonna start replaying. I played back in 2012, and it was a blast. I really want to "experience it for the first time" again, and it seems like a good time to gather some friends and logon.
Guild Wars 2 is the only game that I keep going back to again and again. I take breaks but it's such a fun game that I've been playing on and off since it's launch and still have a lot of fun everytime I decide to play. I've been playing MMOs for decades now, but GW2 really is the best one I've played hands down.
>and back then it was so niche
From my experience since GW1 (which means I was very interested in GW2 development and I do remember the Commando class teaser) and Betas it was always filled with players with an exception of one time period:
1. The playerbase got lower back then due to sPvP (people were boosting on live stream tournaments; it was that neglected) and WvW issues (meta, unbalanced servers or smth; a lot of guilds left as a result) leaving only limited Fractal grind as a late game PvE content (with not much ascended gear and infusion options; some Fractals were not fun to grind). All these stuff were reworked, changed and added but there was this particular time frame when people were leaving / taking a break.
@@3Diva this is exactly why I stopped playing WOW when GW2 launched. I was a busy college student and grinding to the ever further out of reach end game of WoW during the cataclysm/pandaria era was unaffordable.GW2, like GW1 was something I could always get back to, and everything you did seemed to matter (it's only more so now) and plus, to my knowledge, no one else had the world events, puzzles, and mini dungeons that lent themselves well to horizontal game play. And it was built to be so much more social than WOW was, possibly more than it is today. Like every other map was like the best of the old Barrens chat, except that people were actually incentivized to help each other
@@prieston yea it is weird to think of the things they made mistakes on that took a long time for them to fix and some only within the last few months (hello dungeons, nice to finally play you, living season 1 🤣)
I'm definitely a horizontal type. I like experimenting, finding new ways to overcome challenges. As Josh stated, the process is more fulfilling for me than the end result. I could create a build that has turned out pretty terrible but tinkering with it and drawing out its full potential is an enjoyable experience. The experience and knowledge from that process is also valuable for future builds. Though as you said some games introduce so many features that finding something enjoyable is the most daunting task and you often feel burnout from searching for something interesting before actually doing it.
Coming from 13 years of WoW and 2 years of FF14, this video made me decide to give GW2 a shot. Makes me sad that I didn't give this game a chance sooner. So thank you for that. Great video.
The same for me, a long time WoW and FF14 player. Just started and GW2 may be my favorite mmo so far. Can't ever see myself going back to vertical progression.
I just really enjoy how Gw2 dosen't have a sub. I wish more MMos would do that. I really do.
I prefer sub fee because it’s the fairest exchange of “spend money get content” and keeps all dev focus on the game. Devs are incentivized to make the game fun rather than make things to sell. You technically could spend on a cash shop without even being an active player.
Sub fee games are harder to bounce around on though so I do like that GW2 can be hopped in and out easily.
Do you enjoy the lootboxes, rampant microtransactions and dozens of booster items commonly seen is cheap pathetic chinese mmo's instead?
I think it's funny how overprices all subs are in MMOs and people still garble on it. 15 dollars a month for you to use 0.015 cents of a server bandwidth isn't very fair. Very rarely the free updates are worth it too.
@@starjun8144 If that means that I dont have to spend 150$ every month because so many companies from not only MMOs are taking the sub method, yes
@@starjun8144 You know, GW2 in its beta when it still had a fraction of the GW1 devs didnt do that. Gem store was character slots, rename, etc with in city only/RP costumes. Boosters started as quest reward token vendor trade ins to get other resources faster to reward those that spent their time just playing around and fully exploring.
Watching this video makes me realize how well OSRS balances vertical vs horizontal progression. OSRS is my "main" MMO but like most players I have taken a couple extended breaks from the game. When I've returned it's always extremely easy to get back into things. There might be new ways to train skills but the old methods still work too. There might be new gear added but my old gear is still perfectly viable. You just consult the wiki a few times when you run into something new and before you know it you're gaming again.
I've just spent 280+ hours playing a new OSRS account after not touching the game in 10 years or so. Had fun learning the new systems but it makes me want a game that's "like" OSRS but isn't OSRS....I love the skilling system but the grind wears on you after a while.
What do you think about the new updates within the past year? That's how long I've taken a break from OSRS, and it seems like a relatively large step in the vertical content direction.
OSRS IS ASS
@@Xenoun have you tried rs3? I know it sounds dumb but I felt similar and my buddy asked me to switch so I tried it and it definitely hits that RuneScape itch and it has some grind but it’s much smoother and not so elitist
@@Bsquad665 I haven't, was considering it. What put me off of trying it was hearing it has a worse botting problem than OSRS. The bots are the main thing I don't like about OSRS.
I like vertical progression, but not for being more powerful than others. I like being able to look back and see how I've progressed myself and become more powerful than I was before. A bit of horizontal choice in which improvement to get first is all I need to feel like I'm deciding my own journey.
Horizontal games can do this too though. Imagine a new raid boss that only takes damage from a new mechanic. The boss is no stronger than previous bosses, and your gear is no better, but it that boss is still impossible (or at least difficult) to beat without using the new mechanic. This grants a feeling of mastery and power even without increasing any numbers. A great example of this is actually God of War; you spend most of the game with an ax that does frost damage, and then later unlock the classic chain blades that do fire damage. Neither is any stronger than the other, but the different damage types make them useful against different enemies so unlocking the blades allows you to "become stronger" and defeat previously impossible foes. Likewise the move sets of the two weapons being different makes them feel like two completely different playstyles.
@@arkhamcreed4326 The concept is nice and I certainly like to imagine a game working that way, but in practice it doesn't have the same psychological effect. With vertical progression, if I progress to a new tier and get stronger, when/if I go back to a previous tier, perhaps to help a friend with it, I can see how my character has improved. Sure more options and simply player skill do have their own improvement effects, but it's just not the same feeling as seeing something you used to struggle with become noticeable easier without any change of effort. Even more so when you tried something that was simply too hard for your current progression before, then going back and having a fair shot at it later.
I like horizontal progression, but not for having more choices. I like being able to look back and see how I've progressed myself in getting more knowledgeable and more skilled than I was before. No magic sword will save me, I have to get better at game to get more powerful. Nothing wrong to have a bit of vertical stuff here and there, but ultimately vertical games feel a bit like idle clicker for higher numbers in the end to me and not much more.
Vertical progression doesn't really offer that in most cases though, or do you really feel more powerful than before when the enemies in high levels are just the same basic wolves from level 1 but with more health and damage?
@@antoinehanako3193 Pretty much what I was thinking. Vertical "progress" is just watching a meaningless number go up, you don't really see that in any genre besides MMOs and unsurprisingly, those other genres tend to be much more popular and successful. There's definitely a place for ilvl grind but MMOs are far too reliant on it as a substitute for meaningful content.
After playing Guild Wars 2, I can never ever go back to vertical design. I like that older content is still relevant, I like enjoying the fruits of my labour and not having it be undone with the newest update, I enjoy the freedom of choice and how the game values my time, and most of all I'm never bored because of the replayability and the variety of content.
This is an interestingly well timed video for me. I came back to Guild Wars 2 after a 10 year hiatus in which I played from launch and no-lifed to get ahead of the curve. In that time I acquired a full set of exotic crafted gear, the highest quality at the time, explored all the content in the personal story quests and the overworld. Shortly afterward through a combination of burnout and running out of things to do, I left.
Fast forward 10 years, I log back on again. I open my mail to see 10 birthday letters, organize my inventory for an hour before realizing material storage now exists and muddle through the several dozen of freebie consumables and skins I've been sent. Swap my TMNT Shredder looking gear for a full set of Luminous and I embarked on 'new' content.
While the game is as high-quality as ever, I might have made the realization I enjoy vertical progression more. I still feel like my character is powerful and I'm knocking down story quests with no real challenge or personal investment in the story. I don't remember any of these characters and they're addressing me like I'm their commander-in-chief. It really raised interesting questions for me on the reasons I play games and the tradeoffs of horizontal and vertical progression.
I'm pretty sure material storage has been in the game since launch.
@@omega73115 Guess it took me 10 years to discover then. Either that, or I was crafting a million items before logging off. I genuinely have no idea, but my inventory was a mess.
@@Psycho683 The material storage was there, but a few things have been added to it. Also some stuff has been converted into currency since then.
If you are talking about the story in the base game: There is a considerable jump in difficulty in Heart of Thorns and also in some endgame activities available for base game only users. I suggest testing that out. But following your description of your playstyle ("get aheead of the curve") I can totally see that GW2 might not be a match for you.
Horizontal progression is good for World Map. That's something I learned from WoW and GW2. And that's something I want to see figured out with new MMOs by developers, I want to come back to low level zones to find something else to do there, not only pick some ores and good bye...
No adding yet another vista to an already cleared map is not my view of horizontal progression. It was one of the things that drove me away from GW2 instead of bringing me in.
@@11235Aodh You're actually right it may need more, but I liked the World Events and the World Bosses, the questing system, the jumping puzzles, even the vistas. It's very innovative imo. And at least map completion is in there for you if you need to bring people back to their uncompleted low level zones. But yeah, it still needs more, the question is, what else could they bring to the table? They went the extra mile already, at least when compared to WoW empty maps full of low level NPCs, ores and plants.
@@11235Aodh David wasn't talking about invalidating previous progress by expanding it and just increasing that type of grind, I think. What - to stay with that example - GW2 actually did was introducing new dynamic events to maps. There are attacks by different enemy factions / creatures happening from time to time, like the rifts or ley line things. There were also some other permanent changes to the maps, which may have introduced new POIs, but the point of change wasn't to add that in.
Also: It is way more better to add reasons to revisit the map several times (if you like to) instead a one time incentive to revisit a location.
@@DavidJMunoz-kn2qh I agree with David here, the way GW2 has handeled the map design makes it engaging to come back and 'complete' the map, and the way World Events work in GW2 are the real reason to play the game, but the trade off is that the instanced Raids and Bosses imo for GW2 are less engaging than that of WoW or FFXIV. GW2 Bosses all feel like hit till it dies bosses.
@@Arrow333 Yeah, i get your point, and tbh i haven't played GW2 in a long time (2014 prolly) but seeing the 100% map completion drop to 99 or 98% to me was just demotivating.
9:46 - Vertical progression has the same problem in reverse. Vets have to tell new players which features have been overwritten in the efficiency hierarchy and need to be ignored.
that would make me want to make them work even more - bunch of munchkins aint no business telling me to discard a mechanic just because it isnt "optimal"
also the very fact that there is such a hierarchy means youre talking about vertical design... if its objectively more powerful its not a horizontal change
@@SharienGaming Read the comment again
Vertical progression is actually even worse with the long tail of outdated and often fully redundant mechanics that the development path leaves behind over the years. With horizontal progression, it's at least POSSIBLE, if somewhat difficult, to ease players into every new mechanic and get them caught up, without having to do tons of strictly retroactive onboarding/NPE updates that provide nothing for existing players.
@@Ithirahad hit the nail on the head with this. Final Fantasy XIV is a great example, the developers are struggling to deal with an evergrowing heap of old, outdated content and stretching themselves thing trying to not make the beginning of the game a pain to get through
@@CErra310 oh thanks... for some reason my brain read horizontal there and then never questioned it...
well now i feel suitably silly
I'm a huge fan of horizontal progression. This is why I play ESO, as it has so many unique sets to attain and while some are more effective than others, the variety allows for countless playstyles. In the same vein I also prioritize Roleplay over performance, mostly grinding for things that allow me to customize my aesthetic or playstyle
I definitely enjoy ESO for this reason. I do feel like I have more options to express myself in a build.
Destiny 2's vertical progression is basically tacked on. It's horizontal progression/build crafting is more important.
There's one thing on vertical progression I'd like to say: you can still have a great experience alongside the gaining of power. It doesn't have to be a mindless grind. However, games that have both the experience and the reward are very few and far between (I believe)
The issue of vertical progress is the incentive to keep going is not based on a need, and there’s no way to avoid the “train” always moving forward. Tying progress to success is not enough.
You need to create a desire to return to playing the game that can affect multiple people… and all of those people need to be happy when they don’t succeed. Especially when they fail.
Progress can become dull when there’s no longer an adrenaline or a high.
Unless you create a Tier or plateau and let people reach different plateaus to allow for incentives and other benefits to accrue.
You would need to be confident that people would come back to play the game once they reach the peak. Or prevent those at the peak of a tier from terrorising those below. It’s not impossible, but difficult to keep people from falling into bad habits. Or chasing the Dragon.
I thought this too. While I can't relate myself, I imagine that at least a good portion of "power chasers" genuinely enjoy the game and just see the power as a reward at the end. Like, instead of seeing the credits and "Congratulations!" like you would in a single-player game, you get to see your character being awesome as a congratulatory gesture for getting through all the challenges.
Curious. What games are doing this well?
Wow , I go make battlegrounds no good items no fun, so let s farm items, pve is the same for greater mythics that are harder to do and not boring like m0 and so on, I logged into wow and get back to grinding second job
Play classic
😮 I just listened to a whole novel in 19 minutes... holy shit dude. Well done, and well said.
It doesn't have to be a dichotomy. A game can have vertical progression up until max level, then become more of a horizontal progression, so you get the satisfaction a seeing the damage numbers go up, while not having older content become obsolete. Also, if we say that a vertical progression has a 90° line and horizontal progression has a 0° line, you can very much have a game where your progression line is at 10° or 20°. So over the years, with new expansions, there would be a slight amount of power creep, but not enough to make old content useless. And the focus of the new items is not directly to be more powerful than older ones, but to give more builds variety. Of course, with more builds variety, there will be more ways to min/max your character, leading to a little bit of powercreep.
As a PVP player in both WoW and GW2 player I can solemnly say that vertical games are more task oriented and horizontal games are more casual oriented. WoW felt like a job and GW2 feels like a pickup game when you want to relax. GW2 gives you the options to do what you want and WoW tells you what you have to do
i mean, i guess thats how most see wow, but personally i dont think that that is enough to stop me, i didnt go after legendaries in wow up until i was like, doing +10s last year, and only this month i got my BiS and Unity legendary, i didnt do torghast for so very long, and yet as a solo player my 262 boomkin was enough to solo 190 or so runs until i got all the ashes and cinders and whatnot required for the BiS leggo.
But yes i will not deny what the playerbase feels and experieces, shadowlands really does have way too much shit standing in the way of the power fantasy of becoming powerful, the challenge should not be acquiring ur gear and powers, but rather doing content WITH such power
I do think tho that the covenant campaigns were a nice progression except for the fucking 80 RENOUN to level trough, it should have been originally 40 with all the same rewards imo.
And fuck the maw, such a terrible game design...poor audio balancing, excessively melancholic and tedious, made me wanna sleep, annoying music and VERY annoying mechanics and mobs
I do think Dragonflight is gonna be good tho, because they are changing a bunch of fundamental issues with the game, lets see what comes of it
Waiting on the day a mmo can integrate both fantastically lul
@@yankokassinof6710 Honestly think Activision had some influence over Blizzard's decisions on retail WoW. CoD always forced you to grind levels to unlock guns, often requiring you to level up to maximum before you unlocked everything, where the game actually began because you could finally be competitive. But even then most played for the progression and chose to prestige back to level 1 anyway. Putting endless grinds into WoW seemed to be the objective as it kept the CoD playerbase playing so effectively.
@@DTreatz Have you tried ESO? It has mostly horizontal progression. There is a vertical component that at a certain point becomes negligible because of hard diminishing returns. But there is still a meta that keeps changing, because they change game mechanics in subtle ways or add new sets that create new kinds of interaction between sets and mechanics which may produce measurably better results. But at the same time, these things don't outclass the old setups by so much that you couldn't complete new endgame content at the highest level. And often it's something old and forgotten that never has been meta that becomes the new meta.
Basically everything sensible (and you can have nonsensical builds because of the design of the game, but let's not go too deep into it here) performs at 80-90% of the meta builds, and barely anything ever slips below that, allowing people who had taken a 5 year break to jump right into the newest content. At the same time the meta keeps changing, always giving power oriented people something to chase to stay on top.
Overall power creep still exists in ESO, but it is either situational or very slow. And if history is an indicator, the old builds will keep creeping along too, because the overall creep comes from changing game mechanics and skills rather than new gear.
@@256shadesofgrey I used to play ESO it was awesome untill devs continuously start to break and destroy the build you took month to make viable, you change it and they do that again and again, and now they took away Heavy and light attacks! gg wp farewell
Thanks man, you managed to put words to something I couldn't. For a while I noticed me and my friends had been playing less and less games together, and when we did we'd always have completely different goals/pathways to getting through our game/what we wanted to do in it. Using your words, my friends would all be vertical players while I am a horizontal player. For example: take a game of minecraft. We'd start a world and within a week my friends have already beaten the end, got fully enchanted netherite armor, and made a fortress castle to store it in. Meanwhile I am still using iron armor, have no enchants, and haven't even touched the nether, but if you'd look at our gameplay you'd see they basically beelined everything while I had journeyed to a distant jungle, got an army of parrots, tracked down some wolves and llamas, and had begun making a long tracked journey to the farlands using nothing but a mobile base made of llamas. Whenever we play MMO's they always try to go through wikis to find the best possible stuff while I take my time, read through the story, and only go for the items that cross my path and see where my journey takes me, though more often than not I try to give myself some challenge as well like only use noncombat equipment or only kill specific types of enemies, etc.
What's really painful is that for many of those vertical players, they don't really _enjoy_ the game. If you get them to role play and just have fun with the game and avoid the guides (meaning "the quickest way to the top", not "what to do if you're stuck on X"), you'll have a lot more fun individually _and_ in a group.
It's kind of ridiculous if you think about it: the point of games is to have an enjoyable experience and an appropriate level of challenge. So why oh why would you just rush _to the end_ using a pre-discovered "optimal" path, robbing yourself of all the discovery and fun?
Maybe another way to look at this is that the vertical players are into games for _the winning_ . They tend to be the guys who get extremely frustrated whenever it seems they might not win in the end, and they throw a tantrum and quit when someone else is doing better. Horizontal players are into games for _the playing_ . The journey, the friends, the discoveries, the fun, and yes, even the low points, the failing, the losing, the trying again.
Vertical games are _very_ poorly made for enjoying with a group of friends. As soon as one of you gets just a bit too far ahead or behind, they're dropped from the entire experience. There is no meaningful way you can play together anymore. The rush to the top can be thrilling if everyone plays as often as possible... but you inevitably leave anyone who can't keep up behind. That's also why people don't even bother dealing with groups until they get to max level in games like WoW.
These video essays are damn close to legendary quality. Absolutely superb writing, clarity of explanation, speaking style, and decent visuals to accompany the essay.
I also really love that the subject of the video is one that's going to be relevant for a wide section of the gaming public. Wider than the number of people interested in some flavour of the month game, at least. It means that if I'm trying to recall a specific quote or aspect of your argument, I'll be able to recognize at least which video to go to to reference the idea, unlike all those discussion videos I've watched that were titled based on some date, or based on some irrelevant news story of the week.
As an OSRS player who mains an ironman, this video really helped me realize WHY I love the game mode so much. To me, I enjoy the journey to the top and being at the top. Getting a twisted bow/scythe/shadow were amazing feelings, but getting progressively better gear/pbs/being more comfortable in end game pvm were equally great. I think I enjoy the idea of vertical with the journey aspect of horizontal design. Maining an ironman really changes the way I view OSRS and, consequently, all other games.
This is exactly why I'm hooked onto OSRS so much. It feels like a vertical design game with horizontal design mechanics. A very finely balanced mix of the two, an experience that doesn't feel like it completely shifts into one or the other design philosophy. There IS an objectively best choice for each of the combat styles, the best method of gaining XP while skilling, best runes to craft, best trees to chop, etc. The skills themselves are quite literally the vertical scale by which you hop from one stepping stone to another on the way to the top. Hell, the "prestige" that comes with owning lvl 99 skill capes or the best sets is what drives players forward most of the time in Runescape. HOWEVER, the way the game presents itself is by giving you the choices on how you want to achieve that top and because it takes so long to transfer from one stage of the game to the other, older content is never invalidated or overshadowed by new content. Usually, because grinds can take 100-200hours, you end up trying all the content available anyway, purely out of boredom or wanting a change of pace while still working toward that overarching vertical goal. When there are multiple training options for an overarching goal, you end up with the satisfaction of the experience of the horizontal design, while still getting the satisfaction of having reached the vertical design pyramid top.
Really makes me think about Warframe and how it has problems with both power creep and feature creep. There's so many things to unlock and so many tiers of power to achieve that trying to get a new player into it is just way too daunting. Such a cool game, but the glue has turned to rubber with time.
New-ish Warframe player here.
Started late 2021. The game does have a shit ton of things to unlock, but it unravels before you gradually at your own pace. For the first 300 hours of playtime I had been logging in every day to find something new.
Every. Single. Day.
It was like a bloody Christmas.
Never felt pushed or intimidated.
Hell, I first learned about Liches at about 200h and found out that Railjack EXISTS at 250h.
Eventually stopped playing after 900h because I just ran out of shit to do =)
I think the complexity is what attracts a certain type of person to the game.
Take, for example, mods. At first mods seem overly complicated and there's no good tutorial in the game to walk you through how it all works. For some players they might look at mods and just quit the game because it's just too much to take in, especially when they are dying a lot on missions because they've modded poorly and are too weak. But the players who stick with it (ask in chat, look at wiki, watch a video, experiment on their own) are players who like trying to figure complex systems out. And Warframe is all about trying to find a good frame and weapon combination and then figuring how how to mod them creatively to then do the content well. That's what the game really comes down to and so the game sort of self selects for players who like that sort of thing and are motivated to creatively solve "complex" systems in order to play well.
So in that regard the new player experience for Warframe is really good in that it pretty quickly weeds out players who might not do well at higher levels when they're required to get very creative with mods and frames and weapons and all the other interconnected systems. And I don't mean this as some form of gatekeeping, I'm only saying that certain games appeal to certain types of people and Warframe appeals to a certain type of player. Loads of games are like this: some people like unusual combat such as the Xenoblade series, and some might enjoy mastering complex inputs like Guilty Gear. But people who don't like that sort of thing will just move onto something they do enjoy until they find the game that's right for them.
So Warframe isn't really unfriendly to new players, it's just being really honest about what the game expects from the player very early on.
I called it quits on warframe when they started priming quest reward frames. I haven't played in many years but mesa and harrow come to mind. Both taking a long time to unlock and you were rewarded with a great and unique frame. Harrow took me over 40hrs to unlock, then they release a prime version you can instantly buy for 100plat and is superior in every single way. Digital Extremes should've made it so making a prime version of a warframe required the original frame as an ingredient of the blueprint.
@@LCDqBqA If you quit when they priemd mesa and Harroww, then you're not aware that for almost three years now there's been the Helminth system, where you sacrifice old frames to donate their special moves to other frames. And you have to use the base version, primes won't work.
Also, Primes take *four years* before they show up,, and they're only around for a limited time. Yes for a brand new player that happens to show during the period theyh're out, its often easier to get the prime than the base, but for a solid 4 years prior to that the quest is the only way and that's plenty of time for a thing to be relevant for a game that is always releasing new content.
Also base verisions are still worth XP so until you get to MR 30 they're worth getting purely as mastery fodder.
Honestly, as a horizontal player Warframe is pretty good... Except when it listens to the hardline vertical progression meta chasers, who seem to be entrenched in the idea that it's their game and it should be designed around them.
I've played and enjoyed both types of games. However, I'm in my 30s, and when I started playing games, they were played simply to have fun. I find that a lot of vertical progression games aren't attempting to be fun, nor are they generally good. They mostly just jingle keys in front of your face in order to trigger very cheap dopamine hits. They want you to feel like trash in order to make you want to prove that they're worth being on top. Especially when PvP is involved. It's extremely predatory and honestly immoral in many cases. That doesn't make all horizontal progression games good in comparison, but something like GW2 never attempts to mess with your brain in that way. You play to have fun, take things at your own pace and do whatever you want to do. And sure, having so many options available to you can be overwhelming at times, but I'd take that over being exploited and manipulated by vertical progression games any damn day.
And that's the problem with this video. Josh used a badly designed vertical progression system (what you described) and assigned it to all games with vertical progression. It's not the rule he makes it out to be.
All that but the complete opposite. Horizonal progression caters to casual pick flowers crowd. No thanks, I want to be the best and not dick around with kumbyah circle jerks.
@@JohnDCrafton I‘m confused, what would the well designed version be?
@@JohnDCrafton I thought he more used it to highlight the issues.
@@CrazyFiredemon A well designed game, regardless of what progression system it uses, doesn't make the system itself the focal point of the game.
You hit on something very relevant to my experience playing EverQuest, which is a game that has both too much power creep and feature creep. If I logged into Live EQ today, not only would all of my items be outdated and nearly useless, but I would have no idea what I was doing because so many features and systems have changed. That's why I play the Time-Locked Progression servers every year. It keeps me in my power and feature comfort zone, which may be the real reason I enjoy it so much.
Excellent video & thank you for the free pack! Guild Wars 1 & 2 have been just about my two favorite MMOs of all time, so I'm glad to hear how much you enjoy 2 as well.
I never really thought of the Horizontal / Vertical before when playing MMOs, but now a LOT of my choices in games have started to make sense.
An important point I think was missed when discussing horizontal progression is the importance of in-game cosmetics. While those can seem trivial, think about FFXIV, a game that is about 80% vertical progression, and how much effort people put into running older content to obtain glamours, mounts, and furniture. Those can become a easy form of creating horizontal progression for older content that keeps it relevant well beyond the point where the gear is no longer the "best" thing.
That's a thing that I hate about WoW. I want to grab cosmetics from older dungeons but, since I'm way above their level, the process is super boring and I dont enjoy it.
To be fair, talking about doing old content for glamours in 14 I think deviates from the discussion topic. Getting a glamour isn't really "progression" in any sense.
I think if you wanted to discuss running old content for horizontal progression's sake, I feel Blue Mage is the content that really would be the topic of discussion. Old raids done at level award titles and mounts, and many spells you can learn are not inherently stronger than another. Flamethrower mechanically the same damage as Electrogenesis from an expansion later, as well as Feculent Flood from another expansion after. Blue Mage has some vertical progression ofc, but the way its spells are designed are very horizontal compared to the level of content you actually are running
EDIT: My word choice about glamour collecting not being progression "in any sense" is quite far from what I intended. It certainly is a valid form of personal progression but I do not believe it to be a designed progression system proper, in the case of 14 specifically that is.
Elder scrolls online knows it really well, even the devs acknowledge that “fashon is the real endgame”
@@RaizearcheI disagree that it deviates from the topic. Content is content. There have been times in Monster Hunter Rise where I started doing lower-level hunts because I just wanted to collect every armor set for the sake of doing it. I'll admit that progression is still a factor since armors have a unique collection of skills on them, but the primary purpose was simply to do everything there is to do.
@@Raizearche why would obtaining costmetics not be progression? just because you are not getting power, does not mean you arent progressing
you experience the story and challenge on the way to that cosmetic and the end reward improves the variety of things you can use
Great video as always.
Side note, everytime I see runescape a little light inside me flickers. I truly love that game.
One thing that is great about elite specs in GW2:
To unlock those, you need points that you can earn by doing differing special tasks on the maps. If you come back to GW2 after a new expansion and thus new specs released, you immediately have some task to work towards: earn those points to unlock the new specs to try. You still have a lot of freedom to achieve this (esp. if you still got stuff from previous expansions open), but at least you got a rough direction and can ease into the experience while you unlock the new specs.
Loved the video, i was really looking forward a way to really understand how horizontal progression works since i've always played vertial mmos up until now and i am willing to give gw2 my all! Also thanks for the xp boost link i didn't even know it was a thing! Claimed and subbed to you !
A great topic and something I love to pick apart with friends. To go a layer deeper to this too you have to think about players who manage to hybridize and enjoy both forms of progression with aspects of both. There are major 2 things when picking your game and thats; what form of progression does it involve and then, in what ways do I enjoy progressing. I personally prefer vertical progression alot more, but I recognize and respect the virtues of horizontal and I take my time and slow down to enjoy my progression and smell the daisies when I am playing even vertical games. I love this topic, well done!
I am fond of a mix. Ideally a very low scaling vertical with a few routes to increase. I like having to make choices between bigger numbers and unique effects.
In team pvp especially, if there are more choices, there are more interesting outcomes. If a game is too vertical, there is always a correct answer and you have fewer variations of the fight to react to. If the game has too many unique effects, however, they become overly difficult to balance.
I much prefer horizontal progression, though I do enjoy having some vertical progression layered on top of it.
I'm still into Pokemon because it does just that. Leveling and evolution are the only systems that are purely vertical, while unlocking additional encounters and moves is much more horizontal.
I guess I could also use the weapons in Souls games as an example. The difference in movesets and stat scaling means collecting weapons is mostly horizontal, while upgrading an individual weapon or stats is the vertical layer on top.
Facts. As someone who likes making builds and such, a lot of the newer mmorpg aren't as appealing to me as something like Ragnarok Online that allowed for variety in builds and playstyle even for the same class.
they sort of sabotaged their own Weight Trade-off rules by having a Ring of Havel though, and then ruined the "gains" too by making heavier armors mostly worthless in later games. ...such a shame
@@iller3 Honestly I'm all about Fashion Souls, with armor being pretty minimal in stats considering you can already increase your survivability by leveling vitality.
I've been playing Lineage 2 for so long so GW2 was the first time I'd ever played a game with Horizontal Progression. Loving it so far.
As a long time Lineage 2 player myself it was never more clear how bad Lineage 2's progression system these days has become. Not only is it 100% vertical progression, but it's vertical progression with feature creep and no direction. There are SO MANY things that you need to be doing to reach that vertical progression goal and the game does a horrible way of teaching you. Not only that, but with how horribly P2W it has become, even someone with a lot of money would have no idea where to start spending either. It's just horribly designed by all standards. In its prime it was an amazing vertical system, but now not so much.
FireFall, an MMO shooter that's no longer around, in it's early days had a great horizontal system in place. The world was truly open, with dynamic events appearing in every corner created by the game itself, like a mini-dungeon opening, or a random road encounter, or *literal city-hub sieges.*
As well as player made ones, for example, you could use a "Scanhammer" to survey nearby terrain for crafting materials to mine, then call down a huge drill (called Thumper) on that location (again, anywhere in the world) that needs to be defended from waves of mobs as it mines resources, and the longer you defend it - the bigger it's mineral reward would be for all players that participated.
It's class system was awesome too, you had 5 class archetypes with 2 sub-classes each, *and you could swap between them freely at any time,* while still being useful at any point of the game.
And then they decided to scrap all of that, and went for a good-old-rotten vertical, level locked progression system, with static quests and no mining or crafting at all.
The game was shut down shortly after, lol.
Man, I've only recently been exposed to this channel, but I LOVE this content! I love MMO's, and I've just never really seen another channel that does a true deep-dive into design choices like this.
This may have honestly become my favorite channel, almost overnight!
While I do enjoy vertical design, I'm definitely someone who enjoys the process more. If a normal vertical player consume content so they can become stronger, I become stronger so I can unlock more content. I especially love the leveling process in MMORPG, unlocking new areas, learning new spells and abilities, seeing my character go from a complete novice to a capable master. It's just so much fun to experience.
I've been both in the same game at different times. For example in FFXIV I have done progression raiding, but right now I'm focusing on gathering and collecting pretty things for my character to wear. I always feel my relationship with MMOs is healthier when I take a more casual attitude.
FF14 has a good balance between the two, its mostly a vertical progression, but a lot of people love to do things just to make new outfits and stuff. old gear still has a use.
@@Sniperbear13 This is why I settled with FF14 even tho I'm a horizontal progression type of player. They somehow managed to acomodate both types of players in the game, it has content for both types to enjoy and feel good about it.
@@Sniperbear13 I agree. Even outside of outfits, things like tribal quests give mounts and entertaining stories, while bonus content like Eureka or Bozja deliver a twist on the combat formula that you can't get elsewhere (via use of Logos / Forgotten actions).
Glamour is the true endgame in FF14 tho :p
FF14 doesnt really have much vertical progression though...its a horizontal content game
basically u arrive in endgame and ur already good to go with ur gear.. and u get some little bit better stuff from savage raids.. what else is there to progress?
I value this distinction so much and I thank you for making it so clear for me. I have realised now that I vastly prefer horizontal mmo design.
I like the way you categorised and elaborated the vertical or horizontal progression. It's very concise and relatable to personal experiences
I don't even play MMOs, but I follow you for this kind of discussion of basic game design principles and mechanics.
This is very much applicable to single player ROGs as well, and really helped me articulate what I had been feeling for a long time time why I prefer certain games over others. I'm definitely a horizontal progression person all the way, because what it does is expand player options and adds to your repertoire and opens synergies with existing tools in your toolkit, rather than superceding what you already have.
Really enjoy watching the game, hope to get into it soon!
Horizontal player for sure. I've been playing guild wars 2 for almost its entire life span and I was a big fan of Guild Wars 1. I loved exploring and discovering new skills and builds which are different but not necessarily better than what I had before. I love finding new armor and weapons which have different uses or open up different builds.
Vertical progression only keeps me interested for so long. Eventually I burn out and I stop caring about the number increase of this skill and I begin to be disillusioned by the fact that many of my favorite skills I've grown to love are either replaced or obsolete.
Complete opposite for me. I feel I have nothing to strive for in gw2 now. Got all my gear and my play styles. Nothing new drops for me that I need or even want. Can't craft anything better anymore haha.
I love going through these Comments and seeing what people enjoy!
@@dillonvillon Impressive you have full legendary on all characters. I'm jealous.
@@dillonvillon That is where the elite specializations and the new stat combos come in. You have 27 elite specs you can gear. And many of the specs can use several different stat combos to unlock additional builds. Like Firebrand with Condition Firebrand using Viper gear, Condition Quickness Firebrand using Ritualist gear, Heal Firebrand using Harrier gear, And Tank Firebrand using Minstrel gear. They are all using level 80 gear of the ascended rarity but one is not necessarily more powerful than another but they excel at different tasks.
I feel like I'd enjoy horizontal progression more than vertical if the actual experiences were flawless. I love playing a combat medic during a big tough world boss battle. I hate when other players cheese a boss by having a group of 5 summon it before a group of 50 pop in to stomp it.
I'm confused on what you are specifically referring to?
If you are talking about GW2(since it is the most popular horizontal game), then it has dynamic scaling. Bosses scale based on the amount of players engaged to it not the amount who spawned it.
@@frosthammer917 Said scaling is better in theory than in practice. GW2's is notoriously finicky, leading to either not scaling enough, or scaling too much, or having people not participating still leading to scaling and causing the most important map-level meta events to fail.
@@FellshardYT When I played it, we even had this Priest of Batlh event-ending bug injected into the game where Veteran Risen Subjugators would instantly cast a massive FIELD of boss-level death wells and kill every NPC almost instantly. Anet wouldn't even tell us it was a bug nomatter how many of us reported it. And then the Submarines also started getting bugged, and they never responded to any of us on those either. It was a dark time and I quit for good shortly after that.
@@iller3 Yeah, they sweep most major breaking bugs under the rug once they realize they don't know what's actually happening and have no idea how to fix it.
What has this got to do with vertical vs horizontal progression?
I never actually thought about these things. Now I finally understand why I enjoyed playing Guild Wars 2 way more than I ever enjoyed playing WoW, even though my "progress" in WoW was greater. What a great video! So I guess I am into horizontal MMOs then.
Love this video! There's something (somewhat) related to this I'm wondering if you'd be interested in talking about.
Dead cities in MMO's. In the MMO I play people either congregate around the starter cities or the endgame city of each expansion. What are some good ways to keep at least a decent population in cities usually accessible through the middle of progression?
I'd love to see that too! It's really a pet peeve of mine when I get to some supposedly major city with lots of resources and trade, and then it's just empty. Even worse when an NPC specifically says something like "you'll love this city, it's so bustling and full of people from all walks of life!". I get a similar feeling too when there's like a big enemy camp right nearby and some NPC saying "man, someone better stop these cultists or whatever before they take storm our city and begin taking over the world!", but as a player you know that no one has fought those cultists in years and they're always gonna be standing by the city gates, locked in eternal combat with some guard.
horizontal progression.
I generally prefer horizontal progression but I also often suffer from choice paralysis and don't do anything if I can't find a "best" choice
I think you should focus on a single thing and stick to it.
If you can't pick a weapon type or something along those lines, pick a stat.
Which do you prefer?
Damage, attack speed, A certain weapon effect,etc?
Pick one of those and look towards advancing that and only that.
If you declare something as a 'Best choice' all by your own, then you won't have to worry because you already know what you wanted and needed.
I just go with a dumb reason, like "will this let me kill a crab?" and see what choice will bring me to that goal.
It's one of the reasons that I love the first 2 expansions of Everquest 1. The world gets bigger, there are more choices of places to go and items to get, and aside from the highest level of gear (only attainable by the most dedicated of guilds), there isn't that much vertical progression at the top.
I still think EQ1 up until PoP was the best MMO ever made. Maybe not going back to play it now but the design and world and everything cant be beat. Ive said for years you could remake EQ1 in WoWs engine and itd be the best game of all time
Guild Wars 2 build variety is expanding with every patch, it's actually insane.
The game is on a positive news streak right now, it feels so good!
until ANet kills some of those just because they are creative
Build variety doesn't mean anything as long as some Dps classes deal 25% more damage than others or some support build do more damage than actual supposed damage builds.
wish they'd have done it the way guild wars 1 did
1000s of skills and possibility to mix and match different classes
even more variety!
@@EinfachLuap gw1 balance is scuffed though, that's why they didn't allow dual spec in gw2
@@VanGherwen I guess you're talking about mechanist, which is nerfed in two weeks.
Thanks for the great video Josh! Always appreciated.
Thanks for this, this video really put into context something I've felt whenever I play MMOs with friends.
GW2 is such a great mmo
Truly a masterpiece
Oh ok
My problem with that game is that is absolutely huge, and it's difficult to focus on a task
Yeah I love garden warfare 2😊
These definitions (and some of the associations) are a little off, although there is a lot of merit to this video.
Vertical progression in game design is about improvement, getting better at the game, whether that be overall or along a single path among several. This can manifest as classes, tiers in skill or ability trees, levels, stat increases, better gear, and upgrades. This _includes_ new abilities of slight to moderate changes to gameplay that improve your ability to perform certain game loops. Vertical progression is not restricted to numerical increases.
Horizontal progression in game design is about increasing your repertoire of ways to engage with the game. This means abilities with moderate to major differences in how you interact with things (eg short versus mid versus long-ranged, fast yet weak versus slow yet powerful, targeting enemies versus allies, single-target versus a few targets versus large aoes, damage and/or healing and/or status effects, burst versus DoT, etc), or expanding the range of things that you can interact with entirely (eg flight, environmental interactions, and tLoZ items in general). These are _often_ universal additions, applicable across many to all players even when vertical systems are also present (eg, usable and beneficial for most/all classes). Horizontal progression generally means that it does not improve your other abilities but adds a new one.
This is a spectrum, not a hard binary. New abilities or gear through vertical progression can also add in horizontal progression (eg a new skill with both superior damage _and_ status effects, mobility effects, or other features, or superior gear with playstyle-altering benefits), whereas horizontal progression can occur as independent vertical progression along different features or areas of the game. There is also a difference between vertical/horizontal _character_ progression and vertical/horizontal progression along _other_ game axes, such as narrative/plot/story (furthering one grander story versus multiple smaller), map (going deeper into or adding onto one area or plotline versus accessing multiple), social (rising high in one guild versus getting along with many groups), and so on. Most games have multiple axes of progression simultaneously, *especially* mmorpgs.
While vertical progression _tends_ to lend itself more to goal-oriented gameplay and/or motivations, it is not categorically so. Some people enjoy the journey and/or process of improvement, and a fixation on horizontal progression is still a fixation on progress or accomplishment (a goal) rather than process. Vertical progression systems lend themselves to goal-oriented mentality because who and what a player can engage with tends to be limited based on their vertical progression as, setting aside when adequate vertical progression renders someone an altogether non-viable candidate for certain content, it is an opportunity cost for others who are at the far end of the progression line to take someone lower down the rung (costing them time and stress compared to someone further along) or sometimes a competitive disadvantage (pvp). It is more a symptom of the problem of designing mmorpgs so heavily around endgame than it is about vertical progression in itself.
Similarly, while horizontal progression has its own sort of ease and casualness with its own type of flow state, not needing to worry about 'keeping up' to nearly the same degree, completing this can easily become a checklist and effectively a collection of smaller, directionless vertical progression systems. Vertical progression systems enable their own form of ease of mind in removing the need to impose (possibly arbitrary) goals onto the game and enable its own type of flow state in relaxing into a single clear activity and objective.
Definitely. People nowadays think in extremes, they view everything as black or white. Everything is either or, instead of this AND this.
I used to be a verticle progression player; I wanted to reach max power and max gear ASAP. But as I've matured and gotten a bit older, I find that the experience of playing and having fun has more value to me than just grinding for "moar powa". That's why I keep going back to Guild Wars 2, it's just such a pleasant change of pace from the constant grind of many other MMOs and I always really enjoy playing, even if I end up not really "getting much done". Just playing is reward enough.
It still has instances of vertical power though there is gear that is far better than what you have.
@@TheUnseenPath What now? I have full Ascended on my main character, so I'm not sure what you mean by "there is gear that is far better than what you have". There's no gear that has stats better than Ascended.
Love horizontal content. Relic weapons for glam/transmog, farming old mounts, crafting, ect.
LOL! I just watched the clip of Josh saying 'I was gonna have Guild Wars 2 in my video anyway!' and I take a peek at the description before watching the video and see 'Thank you Guild Wars 2 for sponsoring this video!' and burst out laughing. I'm actually waiting for the game to go on sale, if it's like half off and there's a link we'll see what's up.
Edit: The madlad even says it in the beginning of the video. Also as soon as he started describing feature creep I started thinking of Path of Exile, that game is so dense to get into. Even after figuring out how to build your character just the simple act of farming items has so many seasons worth of completixy layered over it that it's incomprehensible
Both are great but what gw2 does great is that i cant stop playing for months and i dont miss anything. Tho I would love some new pvp maps :V
Then you come back, and realized you weren't missing all that much worth coming back for.
@@FellshardYT Or come back and remember why you loved that game so much. Happens to me every time I take a half-year break off gaming - first week usually is just being surprised how the game is still so nice to play, haha
@@DanieliusGoriunovas I have a group I still play with once a week. My opinion has only been cemented that I have no desire to play outside of that context.
@@FellshardYT it’s too bad that more players don’t realize that playing with friends makes such a huge difference in how players can enjoy the game.
What I love about GW2 is that no matter what I do, EVERYTHING has value. Running around the world, doing some mining and events, organised World versus World battles, structured PvP, Fractals, Raids, Jumping Puzzles... Each activity is vastly different and each rewards me for doing it. So when I start the game, I simply do what I feel like, which results in me never burning out on the game.
I feel like people underestimate how the fundamental _loot acquisition structure_ of GW2 works. The fact that "Ascended"-Tier equipment, i.e. the stuff with the best stats, can be assembled from industrial amounts of scrap is doing a lot of legwork
I always think Garden Warfare 2 before Guild Wars 2
@@CErra310 But getting pinks in GW2 can be obtained from any of the activities. You can craft them, Get them from Fractals, Get them from the raid like system, get them from pvp I will say that there is some P2W in some of the systems or Pay to go faster if you dont want to call it pay to win, but everything you do in GW2 eventually leads to pink gear.
@@fabuloushetero1228 that's not the point. The point is that due to this crafting system you don't have to play towards the goal of earning ascended equipment to eventually get it.
Value is personal, rewards are objective, that's why some people like it and other dont.
as a GW2 vet since launch, I appreciate nothing more than knowing that my gear and progression in the game will NEVER be invalidated. My legendary armor and weapons? Always the best. My level? always maxed. My class preferences? Always relevant. GW2 is a game that wants you to play it as a game for the sake of being a game and any progress you earn is yours forever. I don't know that I could ever play a vertical progression game again now that I'm so used to never having to worry about it. It's just great.
Legendary will always be the best because you can change the stats. It's vertical progression to even GET legendary weapons/armor though, and it just adapts to the power creep which is, well, still vertical progression.
If you think I'm wrong, look at all the players who have to re-gear to Ritualist after End of Dragons was released. People who don't have legendary armor and weapons have to go obtain a complete new set of gear to stay end-game relevant.
@@ikpts ascended is very much enough. New builds coming up and needing new stats its not power creep lol. Power creep is more stats, not different stats. And literally only specter you need ritualist gears to make work the alac build. Name one other class. Guardian doesn't need it. You may want it, but you certainly can still do 100% quickness with no effort and do dmg. You use the word HAVE alot. There is WANT in GW2. You don't HAVE to get legendaries. You can get 10 sets of full ascended and it's astronomically cheaper than legendary and will cover any build you might play for like how many years?
And how is getting a legendary vertical progression? How is unlucking more options that work on the same power level vertical progression? What does horizontal progression even mean then?
This is why I like PVP games like overwatch because Your strength is not determined by your stats, it’s determined by the unique abilities each character has and your skill. Each character has advantages and disadvantages but no one is stronger than anyone else, I wish they would apply this concept to an MMORPG
Overwatch is a very bad example lmao but I understand where you're coming from it's why I've played pvp oriented games more often lately than before
I honestly like both. i had great fun hunting the tier sets in wow to become as strong as possible and i believe it is necessary to have a sense of improving your character even after reaching max level. But i also greatly enjoy exploring every corner of the world and fighting various difficult opponents in GW2 and I believe the variety of content on the highest level has a place in mmos thats is equally as important as continously becoming stronger.
When I see horizontal progression I right away think of Final Fantasy XI, I find it hard to believe any other game did horizontal progression better than FFXI at lvl 75 cap. Your equipment was situational and could be relevant for years. I am suprised this wasnt an example in the video.
Guild Wars 2 definitely did things way better and in larger strides
FFXI is a large blind spot for him. I think he's only mentioned it once ever in all the videos I've watched. That being said, its not like playing today will give you a lot of insight into lv 75.
At *level cap*, though. Thats endgame, at which point progression necessarily HAS to fan out. The core gameplay loop for the beginning to mid to end of the experience of progression is what the video's really about, I think.
Youre definitely right that FFXI's combat options are insanely broad and dynamic to experiment with, though.
I like a vertical progression focus but with some horizontal sparkled ontop of it, like cosmetics, housing, maybe guild housing, etc. I like to get stronger and dominate
I like both, more games need expansions that are just horizonal. People who like power also like cosmetics. Good content is all anyone wants.
I love your breakdown of the benefits of both! Personally as I go through phases of being able to play a lot and then not at all, I really enjoy the horizontal progression system of Guild Wars 2. I can leave for a year, and come right back to where I was. Of course there are new things to learn, but the older content has not become irrelevant.
The reset feature that came with Shadowlands in WoW where they put everyone back to level 50 (with alike, dealing 600 or so damage) and going back to 60 again felt great.
How some games are going now are the way of Tarkov, a wipe every few months so that vertical progression is constant, but guaranteed forever.
Been playing GW2 first time recently it's one of the most casual MMO's I've played but in a good way I enjoy it very much. It respects your time wonderfully and it's quite fun to play with the map exploration and mounts.
This video came at an interesting time for me. I had to decide which mmo to play. It was either bdo with the vertical progress or gw2 with horizontat. Seeing this clip pretty much sustain my point of quiting bdo. Even though the game is beautiful and the combat is great, I can't seem to grind for more than 1 hour before I get bored. Compared to gw2, where I can just explore maps, have 10 alts and no worries at all. I guess I am the target audience of the horizontal mmorpgs.
FINALLY.
A video where Josh has more than one hotbar in FFXIV.
not even gonna lie you have singlehandedly really made me want to get into mmorpg's, and i think i might try out a bit of runescape and see what its like because i've never played it before
FF14 is such an interesting example of this I feel. It's predominantly *very* vertical, there is side content but much of it is gated behind the core vertical progression (levels, ilvl, and the MSQ), _however_ the journey there is so damn enjoyable (and the mechanics and culture encourage experienced players to do old content and help others up) that it becomes much more about that journey than the destination.
I'm not sure ffxiv is vertical or horizontal tbh. Maybe it have both of depending on how you play it ^^
@@mylittlevangoghcantbethisc5848 ff14 is pretty much purely vertical lol... as soon as new content comes out old gear is fully obsolete. That's like the definition of vertical.
The thing with FFXIV is what while its systems are definitely in the vertical camp, the transmog is so good that old gear can keep value and be worth getting. Best example is the 5.2 crafted set, which is still massively used as a transmog because female characters look gorgeous in it. Same with relic and ultimate raid weapons.
Vroom/Benoit That's kind of my point. _Mechanically_ FF14 is almost purely vertical, but there are enough reasons (both mechanical and social) for old content to remain relevant _to players_ that it takes on a more horizontal feel in practice. For example in a few mins I'm going to be re-running Coils of Bahamut with a friend purely to experience the story, there's _no_ vertical incentive to it, but the social aspect that the story of the raid provides is strong enough to keep it relevant despite that.
I guess.. it's mechanically vertical, but socially horizontal.
@@_kalia you can do that in any mmo though. Ff14 just gives incentive with very well voiced and animated cut scenes and an interesting story.
IMO horizontal is better to play with friends and vertical to play alone, and it can be a real pain if you play it viceversa, having to wait for a friend to catch up with you (vertical) or been alone with no clear patch ahead can really turn even the best mmo into a bad experience.
i dont know, im a bit confused about the use of the word process here, i feel like people that like vertical progression are interested in process as well, for me at least i prefer vertical but not because i want to reach the top, its mostly because i enjoy the progress of my character, the reward isnt just reaching the top but also the incremental upgrades i get over time, i play horizontal games the same way but the difference is that getting another gear piece doesnt feel like im improving my character it becomes more of the same. Josh also says process over reward but isnt the reward also the thing that you are aiming for in horizontal progression, the reward of getting a new item that changes how you play your class, you still do a content because of the reward not because of the process, if you only care about the process you can have that in a vertical progression game by having options to level sync
Thats valid... I get from you that the process of getting your character stronger is the form of progression you like.
And thats a form of progression that a lot of people enjoy , even tho i only play gw2 but i know that ill enjoy that too
Thats not the only form of progression tho
What im trying to say is that you can progress your character in many ways and when you have alot of ways to progress you will have different experiences thus the "process" is more varied and personal
and i feel thats more true when it comes to horizontal progression system
For example
The progression i enjoy in gw2 is to be more skilled at certain classes, collect titles and more fashion
At some point my mindset for progressing my account was to unlock all mounts (still a working process, i decided to take a break after finishing the skyscale grind lol)
Map completion is also a form of progressing my characters in the world that they live in
Not forgetting about the mastery system progression (still a long way to go for me)
In the end its more about your gaming experience
Thx for reading my ted talk
As I understand it, you’re basically describing the process of vertical progression. You may enjoy the process of going from a copper dagger to a silver dagger, then eventually getting a steel dagger, but the goal is still the same: to increase power. You likely enjoy each step up the ladder because each step makes you a little bit stronger.
However, I believe the process in terms of horizontal progression isn’t about unlocking a skill or feature, but rather the kinds of play that you can do with that skill or feature. Basically, the goal is not to unlock a thing, but to do a thing; to have new experiences and stories within the game world.
And there’s nothing wrong with either mindset. Peoples brains are usually wired to lean more towards one side or the other, and every game uses a mix of both styles of progression.
@@TheCardinalbiggles but games with vertical progression also can have build diversity if they want so that people can change so they can experience content in a different way. I think how people choose to play it depends on them more then it depends on the game being vertical or horizontal, people can play a vertical game for the process while other people can play horizontal games for the rewards, at the end of the day both types have content that has certain rewards at the end to encourage people to participate.
@@TheNovgorodian Oh absolutely! Like the guy in the video said, vertical/horizontal is just a way to describe whether a game is more tall than wide, or if it’s wider than it is tall. Every game has a mix of both.
I used to play og vanilla WoW back in the day just to run around exploring and looking for cool new places to go fishing, and WoW is almost as vertical progression-y as it gets.
I m so glad that I found this channel.. I was always attracted to MMOs all the way from when Perfect World came to Brazil (10+ years ago), now thanks to you I know why I liked so much and what aspects Idid like
This was very insightful and deeper than this topic covered. Thanks for covering this, as far as games go, this is useful design information as devs aim to hardness the optimal challenge of both the horizontal and vertical landscape.
Seeing pre-searing Ascalon always makes me cry from joy. Props on the Me/Mo build too :D
I don't even play anymore but I still login occasionally to my pre searing perma toon just to run around and listen to the music.
My first real MMO experience was Tera, which was a *heavily* Vertical oriented game. But the pacing of those patches that made your BIS Visionmaker gear obsolete gave me whiplash, plus if you didn't have the top tier gear you'd often get gatekept out of basic content that was required TO get the BIS gear. Eventually the gear creep got so high to the point that any break whatsoever was extremely punishing, and not even your achievements / laurels were safe. Because they frequently removed old dungeons and other content, the achievements went with them. And instead of cumulative achievement points they'd often go down after content was deleted, losing your hard work and progress and forcing you to do it all over again. I hated that a lot, and got frustrated as hell after my Diamond laurel got reset for the fifth or sixth time. Then the publishers decided to fast track the leveling to zoom you up to level cap so you could get on that Korean grind faster, destroying any semblance of a storyline and removing countless side storylines in the process. It left the game feeling barren, where the only thing to do was to play the marketplace like a slot machine or afk in Highwatch waiting for groups that would usually kick you out if your gear score wasn't at the top. I do not miss ANY of that.
I currently play GW2, and I must say I love the horizontal progression a lot more. I like seeing my mastery number go up. I like collecting achievements. I enjoy the terrible achievement related cosmetics. I'm slowly building up my Legendary Armory for the sake of convenience and, when I'm not learning raids, I'm usually just chilling in a city roleplaying, or trying to git gud at griffon stunt flying. And it's very satisfying to know that the legendary gear I've gotten will be relevant now and ten years from now, and I can just focus on the exploration and gameplay and having fun the way I want to play, not how the game dictates that I play.
I'll also add that seeing old dungeons and content in Tera that my friends and I had great fun with being wiped from existence for the sake of 'power creep' always sucked (RIP Wonderholme). Meanwhile dungeons in GW2 scale you down so they can still be challenging and relevant regardless if you're at cap or not.
I'd love it if the designers went back to old dungeons and made a "heroic mode" or something similar. Give the mobs updated mechanics so i could enjoy again the classics such as Ascalonian Catacombs but with new gameplay.
@@MrTomEdo Yeah, they refined the currency for dungeons but the dungeons themselves need a polish. They can obviously do it, the updated Tower of Nightmares with PoF bounty mechanics and cc bars is proof of that.
I'm a type of person that stays motivated so long as I feel like I'm making progress I can see. An example, mowing the lawn. I can look back at areas I already went over with my lawn mower. I can see the progress I'm making and that motivates me to keep going. MMO's for me need this same quality. I also highly value visual progression. I'm not sure if this makes me a vertical or horizontal player.
So far both can fit you.
Horizontal progress enables you to do more things, reach new places or do new kinds of content. You can do more, and you can see it. It is like being able to mawing lawn in eares that were previously blocked. Using these new abilities can be supported visually, but sometimes it is more a matter of "you know that you can".
Vertical progression is usually paired with visual progression. Abilities look cooler, gear looks more powerful. But that is not guaranteed and in fact especially vertical progression MMOs releasing new expansions tend to replace your BIS awesome-gear of the previous expansion with normal-guy-gear themed to the new expansion while leveling.
Hey Josh, I've been currently playing a mobile retro RPG called Orna RPG. It uses a GPS system but doesn't limit resource generatio. Therefore, despite being built around real-world geography, you can 100% play through it sitting still. The game does so much with so little, and it has been doing quite well for itself, I think it will make for a very quick and nice Worst MMO Ever episode. Have a nice day broski
I played GW2 when it first came out in 2012 and beat the main game and all of its content by February of 2013, just as Fractals was becoming a thing.
I didn't play for many years and have now started playing GW2 again from the beginning with a brand new character and the game is sooooooo different. It is filled with so many features (they even retooled all the professions) and various types of achievements and dailies and currencies and all that, that it feels like a completely different game.
There is more nuance between both. I enjoy power, getting the best stuff, achieving big things and I also value the experience itself, the journey, just daily play and exploration and variety.
I personally don't like the idea of "end game" in any of these regards. And ever increasing numbers never seemed like a good idea to me.
For me personally a system where progression is part of every day normal game play without the idea of grinding to "end game" or maxing out everything as fast as possible BEFORE starting to "play" the game would be ideal. A game where the progression and customization is a lot deeper and more long-term with a less steep but still meaningful curve. But that is hard to pull of correctly and it's also a problem of player mindset. As grind and "power gaming" is ultimately something players may want to put on themselves and is hard to limit no matter how long-term you plan things to be.
It seems to me a lot more people nowadays don't have the attention for or don't want to invest the time for longer-term progression. They want everything and as fast as possible. And then they get bored when they get to the point where they have nothing to do anymore. In a way it's a self-defeating attitude.
I don't like gaining power without meaning but I similarly don't enjoy it when there is nothing to achieve and work on either.
I'm similar on the topic of PvP. I like and enjoy PvP but I want it to have meaning in the world and be part of many possible play styles in the overall economy and not just for the sake of PvP and "pwning" people in itself.
Theres a 'process' in optimizing and growing power, too, I guess.
I redeemed the code, played the game for a while even before this vid and must say its been the best MMO i played to date.
After starting GW2 all those years ago, I can't be bothered to play a game again that simply makes all my progress irrelevant with every expansion. GW2 specifically is rather slow with providing new stuff to do, but I took at 5 year break and after coming back I could immediately dive into all the new stuff they added, and there were other people doing all of them. It's definitely a more casual experience compared to chasing the carrot over and over or risk falling behind, but it fits my personal playstyle a lot more.
I'm in the horizontal progression camp. Guild Wars made me realize this
I started MMO's in EQ and DAoC. Back then verticle progression was pretty much all there was. When GW2 came out it changed things. I have played it since day 1 with breaks in between but all of my gear has stayed BIS the whole time. The metas change, dps/support may go up or down but my gear is always still great. That is why I love GW2.
I think GW1 was the OG. It barely has vertical progression, it focus on almost anything but level and power, or so i see it.
Vertical Progression is fine as long as the Goal post isnt moved constantly. Which is sadly the case in MMos like WoW. Thats why i play Gw2. If i put time and effort into something, that time and effort isnt made pointless by the next patch/expack.
WoW isnt an MMO. WoW is just a single player game with multiplayer options
You said the magic words. It's why I've logged into the same rs account for nearly 2 decades and gave them years of membership on many accounts
Worth to know it's only artificial difference. A marketing tool. It's apples and oranges. Let me explain:
In vertical design MMO you need to work on next gear upgrade to be able to take part in higher level activities or be able to raid, or just raid/do stuff faster. Usually it's covered by power of the gear. A bad example of this is WoW (horrible gear trademill), and a good one is FF XIV (everybody always have easy access to gear to do all new stuff. You just work on gear before NEXT stuff is released, making it nice and smooth and very casual friendly). Now in old days people were bitching about that and so came GW2 with "horizontal progression" and "no grear trademill, once you have exotics you can do all content, no need for new gear".
Reality is however that GW2 only changed one trademill for other. For example: you need go grind certain masteries to be able to do some stuff on map (HOT) and activities, you need to grind a lot of stuff to be able to get flying mounts (where in WoW or FF XIV they are just there), you need to grind ascended gear to do Fractals, you need to grind gold to even get an Exotic gear like Viper, Celestial etc. which cost WAY BEYOND anything new player can hope to get by the time he is 80. This prevents tons of builds to be able to be played at 80 at exotic level. in FF XIV for example there is no such issue becasue game always gives you gear at the end of each new story that allows you to immideitly enjoy everything new stuff since till next one you will easly and without grind get new gear.
Funny is that GW2 was all abot "horizontal activity" and yet they added Ascended gear that is 5% better than exotic. Some say "it's only 5%". Doesn't matter. That's vertical progression here that is expected if you want to do Fractals.
I am playing GW2 right now (level 80 doing HOT and POF as Mesmer) and I am also fan of FF XIV which is my main MMO in last 3 years (current break becasue I done all stuff), refugee from WoW many years ago, and I played other MMOs too.
GW2 is actually a very grindy game, though a lot of this stuff they do right. However, their gem store became absolutely riddiculous in last years where they put best, coolest and flashiest skins in game. Fashion is pretty much only gem store with rotation like in Korean MMOs to force people to buy stuff. Also creating problem (low inventory/banks slots) to offer paid solution (gem store). GW2 is also whale dream. If you are whale you can immidietly have best gear (celestial/viper/trailblazer), best runes, best sigils, legendary weapons, more bank slots, more inventory slots, better looking character, access to rarest cosmetics (infusions etc.). In FF XIV everything has to be earned in gameplay (99% of it). GW2 is definitely not classical P2W but certainly is P2Skip The Grind We Created so You Feel Like Spending Money to Skip That is Attractive.
Overall I think even GW team realized that horizontal progression alone won't make game last long so they added a lot of needed grind to be able to enjoy content just in different skin. You don't need gear but hell yeah you have to grind other stuff to do content in full or enjoy it.
In the end it's apple vs oranges. Progression is a must of MMO. For me it doesn't matter if you grind for gear or for other stuff, grind is a grind. It's same stuff if it blocks me from doing something in game.
Still I think FF XIV is best when it comes to not being grindy and just respecting people time in game. But GW2 definitely wins as best open world designed MMO. Though it has horrible, horrible dungeon/raid system in game with it's archaic LFG "tool" (more like stone...). And it's raids are just bigger dungeons. And sadly GW2 story is medicore with above average moments at best.
Love your content Josh. Shame I don't live in UK, I would love to chat about MMOs genre in nowadays market with you. Keep up good work! :)
I prefer horizontal progression because it doesn't drive engagement through FOMO. Constantly having the looming threat of the next expansion invalidating all your hard earned gear and even invalidating the content you paid for can quickly make the game feel like a job. You end up playing not because you enjoy the game but only because sunk cost fallacy makes you think you have to reach the carrot on the stick or else all the time, effort and money you've invested until now will be meaningless.
With horizontal progression there is no such pressure. Old content doesn't go anywhere and, if you take a break or you don't play at the same pace as other people, your character/gear will still be relevant. You can just play the content that you want to play whenever you want just because you enjoy it. That is a big factor of why I play GW2. If I feel like it, I can just go back and play stuff from the first expansion and I won't be wasting my time because the gameplay and rewards are still relevant and other people also still play it. Or I can just do mount races and build giant custom tracks with my guild for a few months and when the next end game encounter drops we can still immediately hop in because there is no falling behind. And because GW2 doesn't have a sub fee, you never feel like you're losing out by taking a break or not playing as much as you feel is necessary for the sub to be worth it.
I kinda agree except when was the last time you ran one of the original dungeons in GW2 haha.
That supporter name screen is a like a shotgun blast to the face :P
I can't wait to see the art in the end with an old Japanese man inscribing their names on a single grain of rice haha
Josh, as gw2 player Im horizontal player and I always was, I love when game actually value my time