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What's Wrong with the Ragnarok? | Ragnarok Refit Ep.1 From the Depths
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- Опубліковано 14 сер 2024
- Discord link: / discord
Today we'll be going over everything I think is wrong with the Ragnarok's old design as we go on a journey to refit it and make it a deadly battleship once again!
#fromthedepths #ftd
00:00 Intro
02:20 Armor Anxieties
13:14 Weapon Woes
20:14 Propulsion Problems
22:00 Engine Enigmas
24:17 Defense Deficiencies
27:13 EMP, SOL
30:07 Final list and Outro
Bro you ought to keep the turrets three barrel. Yea it's harder to make the Tetris but firing salvos is pretty cool, if you rly don't like the Tetris I could do it, I don't mind making 3 barrel Tetris.
Six, barrel, guns.
@@catsuno228 That'd be hard but YES
This could double as a how to build a ship video. It's great that you show the contrast with what he did back in the day and the current way to make it much better. I loved watching these Robbaz videos back in the day! Great idea to refit this!
That's the idea. My idea for the whole series is to also give people "how to fix your old ships/theory craft new ones"!
Lol OMG, I remember when the Pilkington got outclassed by a squirrel. FIRE EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not sure if you know, but you can disable character damage in the designer to avoid the screen darkening at 15:15. Just go to the misc settings and it should be a drop down box just over the fragment count option on the left side.
Bruh, even after Robbaz bonked the cannons into the tomatoes he kept the tri gun. You need to keep it. Maybe bring back the weird missile block that sat directly over the second back gun. It would be really neat to see that god awful block back but this time as lasers instead of the missiles they were.
The armor situation is even worse than first thought considering it was built back when aim point was (too) useful and allowed you to target AI
The Ragnarök is truly the Dreadnought of From the Depths.
And after watching this, that is more evident then even before.
Yeah it set the precedent that now far greater ships use
Even in it's time Ragnarok was quite obviously bad. It's essentially a newbie's ship, as Robbaz was literal newbie while recording that. It's just made so big it actually worked ^^
And that made the series so fun to watch even for someone familiar with the game. That and all the goofiness.
One big thing I would like to suggest: is redundancy.
How about having 2 Engine rooms, with just one being able to power the ship? We certainly have the space for it if we use 3-stage large steam engines.
Also multiple AI mainframes. No matter how well you protect the AI citadel, it's hard to stop a piercing PAC/ fully juiced pure kinetic railgun from sniping your AI once in a blue moon. So having some less protected ones just strewn about massively boosts AI survivability.
Its also generally meta on large ships to put single ammo boxes in remote place (i.e. bottom of the hull) in a distributed manner so you cant be ammo-racked.
I wouldn't recommend putting heavy armor in your main armor belt since its too heavy, use the buoyancy instead to use thicker armor which is more cost effective and only use heavy armor on critical parts. (AI citadel, turret-caps) If you want to keep center of mass low, using an alloy deck is nice since you can just make it slightly thicker than a metal one for more buoyancy and a way lower center of mass.(Its worth it, even if its a bit thicker and thus costs slightly more, it will be about or less than 20% of the weight of a metal deck)
Multiple engine areas was a certain thing once I got going with systems design. I typically would run steam primary and fuel secondary since most ships, well...have space issues that the Ragnarok does NOT have at all. So multiple steam pistons could be a viable choice. Definitely more than one AI. The big box in the middle is gonna have the primary things like movement etc.
And that's interesting, the biggest I tend to build is heavy cruiser-ish sizes so having the space of a dreadnought-size ship is unusual. I will definitely look into cramming ammo all over as you suggest.
And any suggestions on schema? No matter the composition I was intending to do some sort of "triple layer" armor with the outer layer being 2m or so of metal, the middle layer being staggered ERA and the inner layer being air gap fillers like alloy slopes or something.
@@Brenzo44 That armor scheme seems pretty good generally, though I would need to know exactly how many blocks thick the armor is to give more detailed suggestions.
So for now, I only have 2 things I could suggest and some more general things:
You can either protect from EMP around the most vital systems with stone/rubber and surge protectors or wear the emp down at your armor belt with wood/stone. (or both) If you want to do the latter, use wood/stone in the innermost armor layers.
Second, this is seen as cheesy by some players but I honestly don't really think it is: using 7x7 air ducts to protect against kinetics. While the air ducts give less hp per material and aren't that great against any other damage types, their form factor allows them to be a great last line of defense against pure kinetic rounds. First of all, their form factor means a single layer of metal 7x7 ducts gives you more than 6 layers worth of metal beams block hp while only costing as must as 1.63 layers of metal. So you pay for one layer of 7x7 metal ducts, which is 1.63 layers of metal but get the kinetic protection of 6.25 layers of metal. Second of all, they also benefit from the angled armor bonus, so if you put beam slopes in front of them and a projectile hits the beam slope at the standard 45 deg angle (i.e. firing dead on at the armor belt) then the air duct gets the 41% EHP bonus and is as effective as 8.84 non-angled metal beams. However, their large form factor means any single air duct gets hit more often than a regular metal beam, so hide them in the last armor section behind beam slopes so they only need to block pure kinetic shells.
As for more general advice: in the video the diagonal side of your beam slopes are pointing upwards, meaning any shell fired from a ship a bit away will hit the beam slope at a more perpendicular angle, so you want to position them with the diagonal side pointing downwards.
If you are planning to have 3 layers of armor on the turret block itself, then there is a great trick you can do: Offset the middle of the gun assembly to be 2 blocks towards the back of the turret, so now you have the same turret size with the same gun in there but with 5 blocks of armor in the front and 1 block in the back with 3 at the sides. This is great because your turret will face the enemy anyways, so you gain 2 "free" armor layers. (because the armor in the back will barely/never be attacked) This gives you enough space to even put a staggered era layer on the turret itself, meaning the gun is protected by 2 era layers.
For more inspiration about using armor and redundancy, you can analyze the AAS Normandie in the workshop if you haven't already, it does a lot of its armor well.
Also, not sure about using one gun per turret: using the same shell for 3 guns instead of one will lower your fire rate but also mean you can shoot 3 shells at the enemy at once instead of 1, which makes overwhelming LAMS a lot easier.
Also, this is why I didn't include writing about armor theory in my original post , it's a nightmare and becomes an essay every time I do lmao.
The Ragnarok has 11m of available space for armoring. But this is all phenomenal advice, and I will be taking it all into consideration. I'm actually experimenting with armor layouts as I write this.
I will for sure download that ship and give it a look.
The gun thing is an interesting one. I'm planning to try out all three types (one, two, and three barrel) to see which is most effective. For the sake of efficiency and form factor I'll probably settle on a double barrel design, seeing as it's easier to section a turret into halves than thirds. Certain turrets will probably have dummy high fire rate anyway; this thing will have at least one pure rail 4m pen SAPHE gun which I find is an easy round to lob at high fire rate (the gun I tested in the video fires that round at like 110 RPM).
@@Brenzo44 Alright, this is roughly what I usually use at this thickness. This is a top-down view of a 4m wide slice out of the 11m thick armor section. It's designed to offer a lot of protection vs the most dangerous ammo types to big ships while using a bit of staggered wood for cost efficiency(seeing how wood is very high HP per material). Staggering wood like this has the benefit of the wood getting a ton of extra armor (the structural boost from the backing metal doubles the wood's AC) and not being destroyed en mass since the wood is isolated by the metal. As for what the symbols mean:
M - Metal beam
E - ERA
W - Wood
S - 4m Metal Beam Slope
A - Alloy beam
(Outside)
MMMM 01
MMMM 02
M EM E 03
EM EM 04
MWMW 05
WMWM 06
MWMW 07
WMWM 08
S S S S 09
7x7Metal Airduct 10
A A A A 11
(Inside)
Basically: double Metal beams to protect ERA, Wood metal staggering for reasonable cost-efficient armor(+EMP weakening), slope and air duct to stop pure kinetic, and Alloy for even more buoyancy inside the ship.
Now, depending on preference, we can modify this a bit: You could put the staggered ERA right in front of the Slopes at the back to protect it more but you lose an airgap in the front(for which you could replace some metal with beam slopes to make up for it, but lose a bit of sheer armor thickness). Also, if you want to reduce cost some more, replacing the inner alloy with wood works well.
Also, this is a great video idea, I'm excited to see how the retrofit will turn out.
Thanks a bunch! I'll include your armor schema in the testing and video I'm doing next.
FTD armor is such a strange topic, honestly the people to ask about it seem to be the blokes who participate in Menti's tourny's.
I have a test rig and have tried all kinds of junk, from the staggered 3-deep wood-metal, to unholy abominations of slopes, wedges, ERA, metal, and Heavy armor crammed together into every bizarre amalgam I can imagine.
And I have no idea how those damn wizards make their ships so survivable.
My favorite "compact citadel" armor schemes right now are.
More Compact:
Alloy block outer shell
Airgap +smoke
Horizontal alternating layers of Alloy 4m Beam slopes and Applique Panels
Airgap +smoke
Staggered Era layer with alloy Beam Slope Spacers
Staggered Era layer with alloy Beam Slope Spacers
Metal Backing for second layer
Airgap +smoke
Vertical Heavy Armor beam slopes
4M Heavy Armor Wedge Backs
Less compact:
Alloy
Alloy
Airgap +smoke
Horizontal Staggered ERA + Alloy Beam Slopes
Metal
Airgap +smoke
Vertical staggered ERA + Alloy Beam Slopes
Vertical Staggered ERA + Alloy Beam Slopes
Alloy
Heavy Armor Beam Slopes
Heavy Armor 4m Wedge Backs
Fortunately I don't intend this thing to be a tourney ship, just a Neter killer...but yeah. Armor theory is a world that I have no right to speak in; I just test what people tell me works and pick the best.
@@Brenzo44
TBH, I just want an ERA rework lol.
Can confirm the people who participate in menti's tourneys use magic
You good sir have taken me back to the Pilkington Fleet.
I personally like air pockets to float. Or at least use air buoyancy in conjunction with other methods.
I'm going to ignore the backwards era since I've heard it doesn't work and does work from others testing it, need to test it myself but imo seems dubious.
12:13, that's a no, sabot penetrators are basically impossible to stop (since sabot gets 70% minimum damage against slopes) and that's why you armor with redundancy if you're fighting a sabot spammer, HOWEVER ap(insert chemical charge here) shells almost always use ap heads which suffer from angles significantly more, in a ships context 1-maybe2 HA beamslope would be plenty to take the round and it's chemical charge, In the context of fronts-siders, wedges primarily of the HA variety are very good against ap-whatever rounds and help significantly against other kinetic, though with sabot changes not sure if it's worth it anymore to use them.
Also for general armor scheme recommendations:
I'm in the boat of being against era in the belt, it's block count heavy and it only ever stopping one round by itself makes it in efficient as all heck, though if it is being used putting the era layer near the back (e.x. metal metal beamslope era metal ha beamslope ha) is ideal to prevent stray fragments or small shells from setting it off, while allowing it to delete aphe shells and soften kinetics before they impact the heavy armor.
General theory is alloy heavy for easy buoyancy under damage and ideally avoiding relying on air pockets at all.
A handful of examples that I would use (not setup for this context of 11m) would be metal metal beamslope alloy alloy alloy alloy ha beamslope ha beam, would work very well at keeping the ship floating and protected.
I'd be less concerned about emp after it's changes since as long as the critical components are protected by rubber, stone, or similar insulator you don't have to worry about it given you have a sufficient surge protector bank.(ie ha spine along the deck/keel routing emp surges to a large bank of surge protectors.)
Finally redundancy is key since at this scale, cram cannons and piercing weapons are probably your biggest threat you have, due to them bring nearly impossible to stop if setup correctly with either active or passive defenses. Along with piercing weapons at this scale being near impossible to stop (see pierce PACs that FRONTSIDERS struggle against) redundancy is key here to allow your ship to roll the punches and keep fighting.
Thank you for reading my Ted talk about my armor philosophy and what I've learned, I can link sources to what I've learned if wanted.
Comments about gun talk.
Imo you should go quads, keeps up with the rags idea of overwhelming firepower, and looks cooler at this scale imo than duals or singles.
Adding to this, if you're goal is to keep the concept of the craft alive I'm its weaponry, concepts for shells such as sap-he and/or frag, sap-heat railguns at respectable gauges and good rates of fire would fit the concept _very_ well.
To back up my theory crafting nonsense I'd like to try and refit the pilkington with these ideas and see how far I get.
In conclusion good ideas I want to see where you go with this and good luck.
I'd like to suggest 2 layers of heavy for the citidel. Something like alloy heavy heavy alloy spall liner alloy alloy. I made it work with a super BB I made for finest hour and it was very effective against the Yamato.
Seeing as there's about 11m of armor on each side to work with my general idea is probably gonna be shell layer of metal, HA, and alloy, and then some compartments inside and then ERA staggering and slopes in a big ol metal slab before you reach the actual citadel. I've been ripping some other people's ships open that are "good" in the 1.5-2mil mat range and they seem to use similar.
You sir got yourself another subscriber. I'm excited to watch the refit!
i havent played since 2017, i loaded up a few old ships. man "space" as armour got nerfed really hard. when Robbaz made this ship the 1m thick with a gap was really good. oh i dont even think AP warhead was a thing then either. we had little else that was good for weapons. Edit: steam propellers where not a thing, dark ages. it was faster in old patches, i remember him having a lot better number than 10 for top speed
Åh jävlar! Lycka till!
Helvete, GMODISM in MY comment section? Thanks a bunch, though! It's gonna be a huge challenge.
@@Brenzo44 Good luck, yeah that looks like pure hell to update, I know I have been working on a huge vessel for a long time that is finished called draconia, and I know what needs to be improved on it, I just don't wanna spend those hours haha
Well, I intend to use the Draconia as one of my ships to draw ideas from for armor compartments defence etc etc...so your effort helps another!
@@Brenzo44 Quick tip: redundancy is 1M% better than ERA spam (which the the draconia is guilty of)
Heh, true. I don't want to ERA spam but, well, APHE scares me. I will be trying to cram in as many redundant systems but the idea of "just make it a tank" sticks with me from my earlier days of learning FTD.
Interesting armor scheme however there are a few more ways that you can make it effective. having a layer of wedges would do wonders against kinetic rounds, the larger the wedges the better. Putting a single layer of alloy or metal before wood (no air space) would add loads of resistance to frag, HE, HEAT and HESH. Finally, if you put the ERA between two layers where every other block the ERA is recessed and behind metal then you will find it'll last much, much longer as HE or frag won't open as big hole when stopped
Additionally, instead of doing metal, heavy poles, metal on your turret it's better to do heavy armor then a metal pole, its effectively the same cost but then your using the higher AC to defend first.
I'm assuming the poles are to defend vs heat and Hesh, metal poles do a perfectly fine job as Heat is only 4AP and HA Hesh is only 7.5, so metal poles would be a tiny bit worse against Heat/hesh, however they are much more cost effective then heavy armor poles. Also poles don't give or get armor stacking it's better to put the stronger material up front.
you can thank robbaz for at least 15% of sales for from the dephs
As far as I can tell, if the ragnarok is 1.8mil right now
Its gonna be hard to retrofit everything you need to get the exact same budget
Its 1.4. My budget is actually around 1.8-2.0. Most of its current cost is in antiquated systems like its old guns, useless ciws, random material storage, etc etc. I have a hollowed out version that im working on thats just hull and armor and its somewhere in the 400k mark. So as long as i dont go stupid with railguns we should be fine!
@@Brenzo44 Go go go my man xD
@@Brenzo44 useless CIWS? Could you add CIWS that actually works?
One other thing is that the ai doesn’t have nearly enough GPP for the amount of detection this ship has
Another FtD UA-camr!? Here take my sub and likes
I miss Robbaz... 😢
He streams on twitch nowadays
bought this game because of robbaz and had no idea how to play for a year
had no idea how to play it until like a month ago, still can't make anything good, and i've had it since 2017
Would be cool to see this be able to defeat the Northedge .o.
You mentioned that air pockets are bad to float at 6:18 but if you don’t use air pockets how is the ship supposed to float?
Most large ships use active stabilization and/or hydrofoils to float in this game.
Also, some materials like Alloy float by themselves.
25:23 why not put one of the auxiliary fuel engines there so the exhaust goes out through the funnels?
You should have used the same gun type that robbaz was using because you were basically using a modern weapon against a WW2 battleship it’s not a fair comparison
It was apparently the ship that solo'd the game, you'd think nothing could defeat it.
Alas, those days are over. If you don't test your ship against the best, then what good is it?
I subbed,
after you finish would you do a tournament? (Like gmodism)
For sure, although I’m not building it specifically to fit into a tournament budget or to be the most meta ship alive. So no guarantees it’ll perform!
So cwis shoot at aircraft too?
I have seen it before but it wosent that that emspyerd me to play from the depth
ik this is ftd and its not the same as irl, but HEAT being decent at spaced armor pisses me off.
How did you make Rambot immortal
I believe its in the options under "misc"
AP-EMP is terrible btw. OhmIsFutile has a good video on EMP and goes into why AP-EMP is bad, along with why he thinks it should be removed.
This video was made before that got sparked up in discussions.
a CA of mine beat this while being around half the cost, yea, it needs a massive overhaul
It I were you, I would make it more slick, the gun foundations are really blocky and the guns set into the ship more
I’m for sure gonna do a makeover of superstructure, but I might also make a version with the old styling for nostalgias sake
The ragnarok is so outdated mostly the fire rate
Ah, the Ragnarok... hated this thing even back when it was made.
Not even because it's bad (it is), but because I just hate the way it looks.
Not a single deco or mimic.
Use your creativity with existing blocks instead of cheat.
At the least the hull and main superstructure body will be only blocks. Considering I started building ships back when custom cannons and crystals were in the game, I tend not to use decos.
@@Brenzo44 my brother.
rework the aesthetics, for sure