MSE QUESTIONS FINALLY ANSWERED... Asymmetry, Face Mask, MSDO - Dr. Lipkin Follow Up | JawCast #33
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- After some important questions raised in the comment section of our most recent conversation, Dr. Lipkin and I decided to dive further into the mysteries of MSE asymmetry, Headgear/Face Mask, Surgery & More!
Ron's own orthodontist, Dr. Ilya Lipkin DDS, who has done over 500!!! MSE cases and claims 100% success rate splitting adult males since incorporating PIEZO. He is one of maybe 3 orthodontists in the world who has his type of experience with MSE.
Could Dr. Lipkin Be one of the FIRST in THE WORLD to incorporate MSDO along w MSE to completely avoid The need for MMA surgery?
Could this man revolutionize the industry?
Watch to find out!
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TIMESTAMPS:
0:00
0:27 Asymmetry
3:01 Surgical Correction of Asymmetry
4:27 MSE causing non existent asymmetry
6:55 2 MSE’s ???
9:38 TAD’s in the Nasal Septum
11:41 MSE side affect on the bite…
13:30 Expansion Planning
15:01 🎒
15:25 MSDO + MSE ?
19:19 SFOT/ Plan for mandible
20:52 Misplaced MSE
24:17 Lipkin’s unworldly attention to detail
28:28 Angles for FACE MASK
32:05 Upward angle for FACE MASK
32:58 Who should use FACE MASK?
34:42 Surgeons vs MSE & provider availability
38:34 Unhappy Surgery patients
39:25 Mid Face Recession during MSE Expansion??
42:16 FME
44:53 FME vs MSE (summary)
46:42 important message ❤️
0:00
0:27 Asymmetry
3:01 Surgical Correction of Asymmetry
4:27 MSE causing non existent asymmetry
6:55 2 MSE’s ???
9:38 TAD’s in the Nasal Septum
11:41 MSE side affect on the bite…
13:30 Expansion Planning
15:01 🎒
15:25 MSDO + MSE ?
19:19 SFOT/ Plan for mandible
20:52 Misplaced MSE
24:17 Lipkin’s unworldly attention to detail
28:28 Angles for FACE MASK
32:05 Upward angle for FACE MASK
32:58 Who should use FACE MASK?
34:42 Surgeons vs MSE & provider availability
38:34 Unhappy Surgery patients
39:25 Mid Face Recession during MSE Expansion??
42:16 FME
44:53 FME vs MSE (summary)
46:42 important message ❤️
Jawley bro
Bailey dawg is there any possibility you could send me the crane headgear after you're done using it?
If so please dm me on ig i'll cover all the costs
@@will6751 it’s not mine to send, The man the Myth The legend Ron himself lended it to me
I like how you have cut down any dead time in the conversation to make the video time shorter. Well done and another great conversation!
Attention spans are shorter than ever!
Also the editing made it a lot easier and more interesting on a video perspective to watch.. quality is really going up
I really respect how Dr. Lipkin considers every angle and precisely plans his treatments.
I would love to be able to travel to see him from the UK if that is possible.
I hear you. Travelling from Boston to see him isn't easy for me. I can only imagine crossing the Atlantic.
@@JawHacks hey I also live in Boston do you know any good doctors in Boston for MSE
Mse practitioners near the uk?
One more arrow in the quiver of reputable orthodontic practitioners to choose from when I go all in on my jaw and facial treatment. Putting this content into the ethos is saving people’s lives, like mine. Kudos man
Great interview. It's really important for us future MSE patients to be knowledgeable on the appliance so that we can pick the correct MSE provider.
Agreed. It's so important to be informed as a patient, or really as a consumer of any good or service.
Hey ron
There is a video on UA-cam made by dr. Ron haruska the founder of the postural restauration institute (PRI) its a 2 hours webinar . I can say that its one of the best resources on the tongue oral cavitie and imbalances in the body and facial asymetries
That video is called PRI Mandibular temporal latero rotary mouvement influences
Thank you for sharing. Could you summarize some of its key points for us here?
At 1:25 it’s mentioned that if someone has thinner face, and expansion starts, it may drop bottom jaw, and make face “longer” …. Why would expansion “drop” lower jaw?
Why would “expansion” create the appearance of “thinner” face??
Doesn’t make sense to me. 🤔
Maybe there’s something I’m not realizing.
Same I’m confused about this someone please chime in
have any answer for my question bro??
Because if your upper jaw drops, then your lower jaw still has to bite down, and so therefore it will auto-rotate in the joint and become lower.
@@shuikai272 bro i have a doubt
I have a habit of constant lower jaw pushing forward does it cause increased jaw muscles ??
@@shuikai272 why would the upper jaw drop? we're talking about an upwards swing and expansion of the maxilla. like pushed upwards and forwards and outward. so the lower jaw should follow suit right? your comment has confused me further lol
Ron you’re such a dude. I love it 😂. I’m a month in to MSE and I have been fortunate to not only get a diastema but to get what at least facially/ topically appears to be a very symmetrical expansion. I will say, I’m having that floating jaw sensation-my lower jaw is for sure flailing in a single tooth home at the moment. 🤣 I go in for Invisalign late March to start moving my teeth so hopefully the tipping of the lower teeth fixes that. At present chewing freaks me out because teeth that don’t normally grind, etc are being put to work and I’m scared I’m damaging them.
Question for you and anyone else doing MSE- do you feel that your ear canals are more constricted on one side or the other? I was noticing that one one side the canal is a lot tighter. I wonder if wearing earplugs could help set the jaw more evenly somehow? I have no idea of the mechanics but it was just a weird observation.
I have heard from others who have had funniness in their ears after MSE, including one ongoing tinnitus case following MSE.
The first symptom i had from my tmj (from clenching, not MSE) was the ear fullness feeling.
It’s most likely tightness in your temporomandibular joints from the stress of your bite being off, your tongue not being able to rest correctly, or any other stress causing factors. The good thing is that it should only be temporary until your bite is realigned and your joints can decompress back to normal
@@FREEGEMS awesome thanks for the info!
@@FREEGEMSI agree my tinnitus came back after having braces again and the bite and teeth not being aligned. One ear canal also seems “smaller” than the other now as well.
One thing Dr. Lipkin mentions is he places the MSE center with the nasal septum, in my case. I have a deviated septum. Should I address the nose before even thinking about expanding then?
Other way around. Split the maxilla first, do any soft tissue nasal surgeries later and ONLY if necessary. Nasal surgery is a minefield. You don't want to end up with ENS or similar.
Great interview! I’m curious what makes the facegenics expander different from all other MARPEs since there are already a bunch of brands besides MSE
I'm sure we will be seeing more of the FME in the coming year or two.
The FME has 6 TADs, but more importantly than the number I think is how they are situated. The MSE you have four screws on each side, in like a square, whereas with FME you have middle screws, so the configuration is like anterior middle posterior, for both a left and right side. I think due to the thickness of the palatal bone, the middle screw will be very useful in engaging into that thicker bone. The screws in the back are going to be more likely to catch on weaker bone, because the bone in the back is just a lot thinner. Kasey Li has also commented that he thinks the bone on the sides of the palate (not the alveolar bone), is generally thinner as well, so maybe arms won't be very effective, though maybe they will work if they are installed into the alveolar bone.
So maybe those middle screws could be a benefit in being able to grip more "good bone".
For those of us who don't have access to a MSE provider and who will be traveling out of town to find one. Around how many times do we need to go back to the MSE provider for appointments?
Lol keep the analogies coming 😂
I gotchu
Lipkin seems much smarter and more knowledgeable than Dr. Ting. I wish I had done my treatment with Lipkin
This is gold thanks Ron :^)
You got it bro
Amazing interview.
Has Dr. Lipkin heard of 3D printed MARPE? My orho has done training with Dr. Lipkin and also Dr. Ting and is planning on doing a customized 3D printed MARPE for me.
Dr. Lipkin always seems to be in search of new and better ways to get more quality control (QC) over MSE manufacturing, so I could see this in his future if it is legit.
Lol I'm dumbfounded why Ron is still so supportive of this MSE treatment. Double jaw surgery is the superior way to improve breathing and aesthetics and it doesn't carry a lot of the risks of MSE. He should have more shows on DJS
transitioning more into jaw surgery content in 2023, stay tuned. MSE is more accessible, helpful for most people and doesn’t cost an arm and a leg
@@JawHacks appreciate that, thank you.
DJS doesn't address transverse deficiency.
DJS as in MMA?
At 17:37…he mentions “uprighting molars”…
That would increase the vertical dimension, and would seem to enhance the undesirable “long face” appearance. Is there some “impaction” done to offset the increase in vertical space by uprighting the molars?
Comment update: Dr Lipkin DOES mention intruding the uprighted molars with tads. 👍
Probably surgery if it's that big of a problem, no? I, for example, have a short face, so, if this was to be done to me, I'd most probably have a positive outcome.
Good point not sure.
@@violetmoon2552 , ok. I went back and listened. I missed that he said “intrusion with tads”…at least I’m thinking along the same lines as he :-)
Uprighting would in most cases reduce vertical dimension by allowing molars to intercuspate correctly, reducing any slight open bite and allowing bite forces to prevent any further supraeruption from poor contact. Even if this was not the case, Impaction can create significant reduction so I don't think any minimal increase possible should be a concern.
My head was slowly bobbing to the background music 🎶 😉
Lol for sure.
Hi Ron, thanks. Next time, please don’t play the background music. Thanks!
Not feeling the dope beats?
This answered a lot of my questions about MSE asymmetry thank you! But does this mean the bone density differences theory was denied and the true cause of MSE asymmetry is improper install?
I think im still confused on the aspect of asymetry a little. When specifically talking about how the bite aligns and the mandible and how it all interacts. I have one side where its clear that my eye is more exposed, so its saggier. But a big reason i want to do maxillary movement is to fix that(on both sides). But i definately dont want it to get even worse, especially on the already bad side. My grandpa was similar and because of it he had issues with his lower eyelid making eye contact, being dry and irritated and it required minor surgery at one point. I am thinking long term here. So i was confused at this point. My main concern is indeed maxilla movement coming forward for my airway, though i am deficient horizontally too and have a deviated septum which i plan to fix last surgically(i believe the deviated septum started the cadcade of my growth deficiency over time).
Excellent video btw. Not sure if you paid an editor or did it yourself, but tightening it up a little was great. In most cases id say leave it but as a follow up discussion i think it worked really well here.
Where can I find a good provider in Poland for mse bone borne?
Ron is it possible to get another MSE once you go through a procedure (split + expansion + subsequent healing), let's say years later? Could one potentially expand twice?
I am looking to get DJS, is there any really good ones in michigan
If your midline stays aligned..does that mean you're expanding symmetrically? Or can you have a asymmetrical expansion with aligned midline? Dumb question just wondering
Sometimes the midline gets falsely thrown off by the lower jaw choosing side to swing over to. Better to have a good bite on one side then a half bite on two sides. So watch out for that when assessing.
I think it's a good sign, but maybe not absolute.
i think also environmental stimulus can effect the way the MSE torques, since someone could possibly have done MMA in the past as well, therefore, the left side of the face would have more bone density, and the right side would be more prone to expand outwards more. I remember an image of a skull, it was a man who had gotten kicked in the head by a horse, and one side was way out on one side. So the way I Imagine is trying to expand someone who has had some stimulus to the skull to increase bone density.
Hi Ron, in your in opinion do you feel it’s possible to achieve 8-10mm of forward maxillary growth using MSE + face mask?
This is interesting, two interviews but no cases discussed , atleast related to face mask. Not even asking simple question like, what was max forward advancement did you get using face mask?
What age group did you use them on? Etc
You asked them to dr ting...what happened here?
I have shown a Lipkin facemask case in a past video, I think it's called "Proof that MSE + Facemask Works."
@@JawHacks I have seen that but when you are in-person with him, it would have been great coming out of him mouth and explaining about his cases rather than discussing a FB post.
But seriously, its an interview, wont you like to discuss everything? Like a person goes on a Podcast and then he goes on another Podcast, the second Podcast will discuss all the points again discussed in the first podcast. Like when "Breathe" book from James Nector came out , he was talking same thing in all the Podcast and some things different depending on the interviewers knowledge and interests.
I have a pretty asymmetrical jaw and I wanted MSE for breathing and aesthetics. Is this a bad idea? Also does your face come forward by using MSE? I have a receding chin from mouth breathing my entire life. (I’m 17)
I want to ask what if I’m in a braces already but want to do MSE after? Would I need braces again to close the gaps or may I opt for Invisalign? Does doctor Lipkin know anyone who’s in the nyc area who does the same treatments?
Ron, What do you think of a Frankel Regulator? Mike Mew was recommending it I'm an adult and I'd like to expand my mandible.
How much does a mse + tads procedure costs from dr lipkin
Hey Ron. So I got the screws out this weekend. It was extremely painful. My premolars were left so sensitive he couldn't take the arms out and so decided to take the impression of my next mse with my current mse on. And I'm worried it might get worse when he installs the next since the current one cause some asymmetry. He didn't seem to worried but I'm not sure what to think anymore.
Sorry to hear
Did you get a second one because the first one didn’t work?
@@bumba8154 no the second one was because I needed a bit more expanding.
@@HelianaFranko ah ok, sorry to hear about the pain you had on the first one.
@@HelianaFranko how much did you expand with the first and second one? If you did the second one already
What are tads?
Two goats in a single video. Spread the message guys, I want you all to share this video with at least one friend! We need to show more appreciation.
Appreciate that one brother!
39:25 🤔 yess
Dude.....Dr won moon has video on how expand one side more than other side.....in response to doc's comment on symmetrical expansion....you can actually do asymmetrical expansion
Can you explain what he says? How does he do it? Having a hard time wrapping my head around how that might be possible.
@@JawHacks I actually sent you a video...maybe couple of months back....check that out. In that I gave you a video link and also timing of the section where he talks about expaning one side more than other side
I actually sent that email to You, lipkins, bockow, evans,ting
Link?
Why not link this absolute revelation?
@@MegaLeoben Cant link that worried that if it gets popular it might be pulled down.
But the idea is, do a surgical assist (cut the bone) on the side you want to expand more, that way resistance on that side is reduced and it expands more. Bands can also be used to help to expand more.
How do you go about finding a good jaw surgeon for mma?
My goal for the next year is to shift focus from MSE to jaw surgery. I'm hoping both me and my audience can become experts in MMA by new years.
@@JawHacks Bro you are a real life hero. God bless you.
37:11 hmmm 🤔
hi
my surgeon wants to do surgical palate expansion ( i dont know the name) instead of removing upper teeth and then
do a double jaw surgery
is that good?
Sounds like it’s better than extractions. Sounds like he recognizes a skeletal discrepancy, and is trying to correct it, instead of JUST focusing on teeth. 👍
@@tjam4229 orthodontist wanted to do extractions but the surgeon told him no, never do upper extractions because it makes the palate narrower
@@mdenjoyer831 , ideally, you want to keep all your teeth, and TREAT THE PROBLEM…the problem isn’t that you have too many teeth, or the teeth are too big…the problem is the jaws are too small. So making the jaws larger to accommodate the teeth is the treatment you want.
Keep z teeth!
@@JawHacks but ortho and surgeon wants to remove 2 premolars ont the lower arch because of crowding, upper jaw no extraction
45:06 right
6:11 😂😂😂
Does mse works with front teeth implants?
From what I've read as a layperson, the gap would not be possible to close without surgically assisted movement of the boney block surrounding each implanted tooth, the mechanism of tooth movement lies in the natural tissues resorbing and rebuilding which can't happen in an artificial abutment. You probably want to consult an sfot provider for a professional opinion as you would need coordination between the specialities.
Does he do 1 on 1 online consultations?
Not sure.
Sir lower jaw chin pushing forward
Will increase jaw muscle
Beacuse sir i have a constant habit of lower jaw pushing forward
bro lower jaw pushing forward will just push your front teeth out. if you want jaw muscles just chew hard gum
@@musicxmovement thanks bro
11th Commandment: Thou shalt not confuse lower jaw jutted forward as a stable bite. It's a cope, although a useful one at times (such as when sprinting).
44:51 yess that's right
And MSE is better than FME idk about this fme,
You should prefer MSE
19:01 ok
Damn you’re looking good 😊
Make a video on every health and life benefit you received from MSE? How's your breathing, your sleep, etc? Or just answer in this comment lol
I will do a video on this in the summer when I'm done with my seasonal job. Great idea, thanks.
How much does surgery cost 40k? Does this include the hospitals fees?@jawhacks