Sometimes recasting just makes sense. Roger Moore was 57 years old when he was recast with Timothy Dalton. It just needed to be done - he was starting to look too old to be a convincing James Bond anymore.
If GW could start releasing legacy models or the STLs of the newer minis once they go out of production to companies that can cast/print small custom runs, I imagine it'd have a similar effect that Steam did on video game piracy. Who wants to deal with the faff and potential downsides of piracy when getting the legit thing is cheap and easy?
@@BloopTube setup cost and all the time and experimentation you need to get even halfway decent results. 3D printer people have some of the biggest biases I've ever seen when it comes to being honest about how easy it is to start.
It would cannibalize plastic sales, and why bother to pay GW when you can get the STL off a website. Same thing happens with PDFs of the rules EDIT: Copy pasting a comment I made elsewhere: DRM doesn't work in most cases for a start. Its almost always broken within weeks of release Second of all, about 3d printing (Keep in mind here, I own a resin printer and have been messing with the hobby since ~2012, but i'm mostly going to talk about resin printing here): 3d printing is its own hobby, its not easy, its not exactly cheap to set up, and its not safe enough for end user use right now. Resin is toxic and needs special handling, FDM machines can be actual fire hazards. GW would see either minimal benefits or potentially massive downsides to supporting 3d printing. First of all, it would cannibalize their plastic sales, which is straight away a negative for them, Second of all they lose quality assurance for the product (Cleaning, supports, printer, resin, temperature are all big variables), Third they now have to deal with piracy that is literally copying a file. Almost impossible to actually trace. Fourth, they lose all repeat sales of a product they sold as an STL from printers. 3d printing isn't like the music industry, its a specific method that needs specialist equipment and knowledge to use, and the final result can vary, while also providing a worse quality result than GW plastic production (Even 0.05 or 0.025mm layer lines are still visible and can show up, FW has these on some of their newer resin casts as they 3d print the masters and in the right light they are visible). What Guy said about licensing a company to do the 3d printing? Thats viable for them. But GW will never sell STLs because thats shooting their own business in the back of the head.
They don't want the old models to be a cheaper alternative to the current lineup though. But they should be available at some price - if recasting is cheap and easy, GW refusing to sell some version of old models is bad PR and lowers the bar for buying illegal recasts.
@@jollyjoker6340 old models aren't just a price thing, they're primarily a desired aesthetics thing. Most of it is people liking the look of an old kit.
@@tristanpritchard7253 I mean. their stock did pretty much nothing for almost a decade before it took off in 2016. How could you have known? The same goes for crypto. "If I had invested X in 2016" well, basically no one did.
You would have made even more buying rare warhammer mini sets and never open them, a mint edition original space hulk game and expansion went for 100.000 pounds at Suthersby's a few years ago.
Jesus. I cant imagine selling a treasure trove like this... I hope whatever pushed Lee to do this isnt chasing him to wherever he goes to restart his life.
@@MidwinterMinis hey bud great work on all your videos as always. Thought provoking stuff. I had a question about the darkworld stuff that was in your retro showcase. I've been looking for expansions for that game for ages and would very much be interested in obtaining them off you if you wanted to part with them
When warhammer world first opened in the late 90s, they had all the catalogues on a big table in the middle of the shop (argos style for those from the UK). You could order any parts that you wanted directly and they would go and get them for you. If they didn't have it in stock, they would cast one for you on the spot! I miss those days.
Sure, but there were no high detailed, cheap plastic kits. It's not just about "The Hobby" it's also about "The Industry" - it takes mass production for this cool stuff to happen.
@@herculeholmes504 tbf it was forge world stuff, but I do see where you are coming from. Unfortunately I only got into 40k when i was 9 in 2010 so Im a tad young for the cooler old metal stuff from back in the day. However I do want to make a vostroyan kill team and maybe have them as a 2nd army after drukhari
My local GW store used to have order forms that you could fill in and hand over your money and a week later you'd go back and pick the bits up. I really miss the ability to order bits like that
It would make them less money. You have limited money and limited shelf space and limited time. GW is trying to take all of the money and they don't do that if they max out your time by having you fiddle with some other company's 3D printer and resin or use up all your shelf space on penny a piece models rather than their $3 per model.
Id love to get the casteus assault ram, but it was an expensive FW model, not a best seller probably, out of production model and i live in sweden. If i wanted to get a second hand version of it, it would probably cost me 3000 SEK( like 300$). Just fuck that!
@@jasongrundy1717 They could outsource the printing. Sites like Shapeways allow for that. GW provides legit and quality scans and files. Shapeways does the printing. The Consumer gets the old model they wanted. GW gets a cut and is still in control of the files. The consumer has an easy transaction without having to set up and print themselves. GW wouldn't have to worry about inventory or maintenance either. It would all be made to order and outsourced.
@@ImaNecron I agree. I have some recastdtbst are amazing. I live in Australia so FW stuff is more expensive for us than anywhere in the world bar New Zealand. At one point it was cheaper to fly to the UK to but a Warlord titan and fly home rather than pay FW's outrageous shipping prices.
For long time last model I bought from FW was Astraeus after its release ... the cast was ok ... but there were some serious fitting problems that I do not believe correspond to the price tag on it ... so I asked for replacement ... then another, then another ... fitting problem remained, but on top of that I got parts with bubbles and coarse surface and details as if the form was not cleaned for long time ... I gave up.
Honestly that's my biggest deciding factor in the question of "is recasting/printing/pirating etc okay": how much of a dick is the original IP holder. And for the last two decades or so, GW has been Ron fucking Jeremy.
@@jackrackham3406 As a matter of principle, i don't spend a cent with GW. All recasts, knockoffs, 3d printed and all codex downloaded PDFs. After what they did with the astartes project, fuck them.
@@TenebrusI07 Don't forget TTS. I know not everyone liked the humor or the lore, but you have to admit the sheer amount of work that was required of the series deserves recognition
There is a really good book called "Everything I learned about business I learned from the Grateful Dead" Authored by Berry Barnes. In it, he describes how the Grateful Dead had essentially the same problem with counterfeit shirts etc that 3rd parties were selling outside of venues and the like. The Grateful Dead essentially positioned themselves as content creators and rather than taking legal action, provided those third parties with officially licensed merch to sell, improving profits for everyone while maintaining high branding standards. Honestly, it's a no brainer if people are already making money off it to just say "hey, we will let you keep doing what you are doing and provide you higher quality molds but you are going to pay us a fee"
@@paulyg405 The problem with a lot of companies that have been around a long time (around 40-ish years in the case of GW), is that they tend to cling to old, outdated business models that don't neatly integrate with the modern world of consumerism. We saw it with the music industry with Napster back in the 90s, until they were forced to adapt to new trading conditions and started offering cheap digital downloads (Although to be fair with a browser extension, you can get all the music you ever want free of charge off UA-cam but whatever) Big corporations never look after the fans though. When GW first started it was just a couple of guys who loved their hobby and turned it into a business, but then the suits come in and take over and turn it into a cold, faceless behemoth that treats the fans as nothing more than a bunch of cretins that get between them and their money. (That's a more or less direct quote from Virginmedia - One or my former work colleagues went to work for Virginmedia in their sales department, and on his induction day, he was told, in very clear terms, (and I quote) "The customer is a cretin between us and our money" ) Sadly it seems that GW is of much the same opinion. These corpos do NOT like us at all. They never have and they never will. They do not understand fandom (just observe the mess that Disney has gotten itself into by attacking their customers and calling them foul names - fortunately GW hasn't quite sunk to Disney levels of anti-consumer thinking, but the danger is ever-present) Just imagine how great it would be if these companies looked after their customers. What a world that would be...
This is also what KC Green did once his "This is Fine" dog started going viral. Instead of trying to take control of the meme, he pushed for merch super hard with his webcomic collective and now you can buy official This Is Fine plushie dogs and they are Adorable.
The problem here is, all GW is doing is potentially devaluing its own brand, and providing itself with competition, and they sure as hell won't risk losing control of their IP. GW makes its money by making and distributing miniatures, and the games are a means to that end. In theory, you could play their games using cardboard counters or marked tiddlywinks (not to mention with other types of mini), but they have cultivated a consumer base that desires official GW products, where the minis match the artwork, and, as the sole supplier, they can charge a premium on that. By allowing other companies to produce 'official', if older, designs, they leave themselves open to being undercut, where they would have the 'new' official miniatures, where they recouped the full profit, and charge a premium, competing against 'old' official miniatures, where they only received a fee. They would also incur the cost of policing the secondary market, and potentially create a market in illegally cloned official molds. The simplest way of providing access to their back catalogue, would be to scan the original molds/models and provide an on-demand 3D printing service, where you select what you want on the website, and receive your order by post. I can' t see them ever providing the source files, for the same reason as above. They could also pair this with a Heroforge-like service, where you can pay a pretty penny for a mini of your own design. This also might see them move more heavily into TTRPGs.
@@paulyg405 If the mini market goes, I can't see GW really being able to keep control of Warhammer as a brand, which will massively devalue its licencing potential - the vertical integration between the rules and the models is what effectively enable them to define and control that universe. If the miniatures become community sourced, then it's almost certain that the rules will be too, and there'll be as-good-as-official homebrew army lists before you know it. On the plus side, it means the Squats come back, and I may end up being able to fulfill my teenage desire of getting Skaven in 40k. I don't see this as that likely, however, as the cost of a 3D printer adds a fairly hefty barrier to entry for new players. There are a few viable ways that they could change for the better, but they would fundamentally need to change their relationship to their community and IP. I'd like to see them adopting more of an open-source approach, similar to the one WotC takes with D&D (see also TSR's approach to the same property, which mirrored GW at present), with a site containing community contributions (and a possible certification process), and a 'community store', where third-party producers can sell their minis via a GW shopfront. This could possibly lead to the creation of whole new lines, and bring the Squats back, but GW would have to loosen the control on the tone and direction of the universe, but it could well net them a smaller slice of a much larger pie. Also, I'm pretty sure that there would be a market for Rogue Trader to act as the basis of a skirmish game, supported by a line of old-school re-issues.
Man, *none* of these replies are referencing the ad I was thinking of. Always got it on DvD's in the UK, with stupidly overdramatic music over the top. Very early 2000s
I bought like 30 Gargoyles, a Hive Tyrant, and 3 venomthropes from a chinese recasting site. Took like three months to show up but they were great quality. And like 20% of GW's retail price.
When GW has the ability to order individual parts direct, I never once thought about recasting. When the direct service went away, so did some of my desire for the game since I was a poor teenager that loved converting/kit bashing and didn't want to spend $25 for an arm.
I bought everything from china, not recast, real GW stuff, cost around half of the price compare to Australia, Its getting more expensive now because even Chinese retail price got increased, but still cheaper.
@@leonhou7137 What website? I'm a kiwi and frankly the fact that I'm paying 50% more than forex says I should irritates the hell out of me. Warlord games sells it's products at close to what forex says, and they too are designed and made in the UK so it's clearly a policy issue with GW rather than any actual economics reason.
@@ColCaffran Chinese website Taobao which is local version of aliexpress, but no English language supported. they do accept visa and MasterCard payment, and they do ship to New Zealand. both by air and sea, I recently bought a PRIMARIS CHAPLAIN ON BIKE which cost me 47 NZD, plus 13 NZD shipping cost by airmail, by sea will be cheaper if you buy in slightly bigger quantity. airmail took a bit more than a week while sea took a month, but air mail charge you 13 NZD per 500g while sea charge you 13 NZD for the first 500G than each additional 500g will only cost less than a dollar.
The problem GW will have is the overhead/profit with maintaining both systems. When I buy a plastic intercessor kit I need to buy at least 2 boxes (15 minimum troops). That's X profit that GW makes per box, subtract the cost of the raw materials (I'm leaving this out as it's insignificant), the cost of the Artist (A), the cost of the Marketing (M), and the cost of the sprue (S). So X(total) = X - A - M - S. Now you'd say "if we go to a 3d printed file, that knocks out M and S so I should get a file for cheaper right?", Wrong. The main cost of a new model is the sprue mold (roughly 10-20k per sprue), that cost is then divided over the number of boxes they're expected to sell. More boxes sold, the lower cost per sprue (IMO This is why GW pricing is the way it is). GW wants to keep X(total) as high as possible. If they go to a hybrid model with printed and non-printed models, GW will be incentivized to use the 3d printed files to subsidize the sprue cost to make sure that they don't lose money so X(printed) = X-A-S. Also you're only purchasing a file ONCE. Nobody is stupid enough to think you can control a 3d printed file after it has been released, see why the 40k app exists and they no longer do .epub codexes. So they're now incentivized to price the file as if you're buying the kit multiple times, OR the physical boxes will become even more expensive as GW seeks to maintain the profit level. Also there's the issue of copyright. So IMO if they embrace 3d printing, you're looking at 100 bucks for the "intercessor" kit files. or 100 buck intercessor boxes. I am not defending GW's pricing scheme at all; All I'm saying is that I'm not buying an official intercessor file for the amount I currently pay for files on Patreon (I got most of a TK army files for like 30 bucks). I think your idea of selling the files of either OOP models or random upgrade bits is the way to go here without them going all scrooge McDuck on us (as S no longer exists in this case), and just keep the models in the legends line (not tournament playable). tl;dr: you think GW pricing is scummy NOW? if they get into the 3d printing realm it's going to get a Whole lot worse.
They used to do this, as he pointed out in the video. They stopped it and said that the molds was getting to old, but I am sure it was mostly because of the cost.
@G Soap it could work but that's not how gw operates. There's so many parallels between GW and Nintendo. The way they both leverage their old IP is really odd. Quality IP and some nostalgia for their old products is largely what keeps people passionate about them so they drip feed it out in little teases. Think about the snes and nes mini console things Nintendo released. They were really limited supply and a lot of people couldn't get them. They have a good selection of old games on the 3ds virtual console but there's still loads you can't get including any snes and gba games. In the same way GW waited about 15 years to start supporting necromunda and blood bowl again. Now they're teasing "the old world". They won't do it. They hoard their IP like a dragon on its treasure.
@@corbingovers7559 I have to disagree, there are companies already offer stls or a mini, granted they are resin minis which some people think are inferior, (I don't) and it works for them. GW will have to look at this option sooner then later or the only people buying their plastics will be the "whales" who buy any of their stuff no matter the price, because they will be the only ones left who can afford their prices the way they keep raising them and giving you less for your money.
Many years ago GW themselves had a recasting tutorial in White Dwarf. It was limited to doing details like you would find on the Chapter upgrade kits now by mucking about with greenstuff and vaseline, but it definitely sparked ideas in nerds of my vintage.
Hilarious that GW would complain about intellectual property theft when the designs for both space marines and Tau armored suits are right of the cover art of Robert A. Heinlein's books.
And space marines only slightly reminiscent of Ralph McQarrie's concept arts... Years ago I stumbled on a quote or some such that said - If you steal from one source it's plagiarism, if you steal from many, it's research.
@@biggest_mac5060You should definitely give it a read if you like 40k, the movie just does not give it justice. It’s more of a parody of the original source than it is based off it.
Theft and copyright infringement are two separate concepts but this video keeps stating that recasts are "theft" - this notion has even been rejected in the courts. please add a correction!
That correction only applies in certain jurisdictions, and for most people, its likely that the companies recasting are breaking the law in the countries they sell in
@@aidanquiett668 then calling it theft also only applies in certain jurisdictions, and I highly doubt that recasting miniatures is a crime in most countries. Replicating copyrighted content is generally a civil infringement at most, and not a crime.
Recasting "out of production" models is not illegal, even in the UK. There is a legal doctrine called "violenti non fit injuria" in this case violation of IP law does not cause financial loss- because model is no longer produced.
Its a difficult argument, you'd have to show that there was no possibility of profit at all and GW could say they were going to rerelease it at some point. Ultimately messing with someone's IP can land you in trouble and is risky. You want to be the guy in court making those arguments?
@@WraithRaider the burden of proof would lie on GW that they intended to do something with it. All it would take in court would be to show that the line of products is no longer in production and hasn't been for X amount of years and the judge would likely wave the case off, if it even got that far which it probably wouldn't.
@@WraithRaider I would. GW would have to prove unequivocally that they were going to re realise every single model and piece from the last 40 years. Not at some vague time in the future maybe. Now, with designs and trademarks and documentation stating every line will be remade and introduced for public purchase. They can't and would not do that based on money alone so you would win. Smartest thing to do would be to make deals with them like Guy said and start buying 3d printers and pay the guys that recraft it all for fun anyway.
This was a great video. Regardless of whether recasting is immoral or not, it should be acknowledged that GW pricing people out of the hobby will necessarily lead to more people buying recasts. That's something they should consider every time they do something like re-release terrain sets from 2 years ago for 120% of the original price with 30% of the content missing.
Yep, except that tabletop gamers leaving hurts GW 3 fold. Local games become harder to find so then the community shrinks, the relevance of GW’s lore takes a hit (their most valuable IP, which let’s not forget was their amalgamation of pop culture and small scale community modeling that individuals were doing at their time of founding. The community at the time was what inspired GW and gave them a lot of their aesthetic) and lastly, GW can’t sell rules or paint etc. I could afford legit GW but we get shafted on price here so fuck GW as a matter of principle, I’m not gonna be involved in any way. 40% above UK prices for no reason. I’ve seen people analyse at our import taxes, shipping costs etc and is worth maybe 5-7% Why should I spend $88 on a local stock Leman Russ (plus postage) when I can buy THREE WW2 tanks SHIPPED from the UK for LESS, models which assemble better mind. How can a GW tank cost more than 3 TIMES a smaller companies offering INCLUDING INTERNATIONAL SHIPPING AROUND THE PLANET?!? I can buy 45 infantry models for $110 which come with more gear, pose and misc options than most GW stuff. A box of guardsmen costs $56 here. 10 Space Marines can reach $88... when consumers realise they are being treated badly, the only thing that happens is the company looses. I do agree that people don’t have a right to pirate GW IP. GW doesn’t have a right to price gouge my domestic market for their shareholders pocket and act like they are holier than thou. Folk around here gave them their start and built the community which made GW the position they have today. GW’s thanks for this is fuck you and all you did getting us here, building terrain for your local hobby shop and teaching friends our game, spending your personal time and money on community events; spend half a days pay on one box or get out of the way for rich noobs who will
Right? After all the years of GW shitting all over the fan base, I feel it's karma that the fanbase is using recasting/3d printing to shit all over GW.
I think this is the thing isn't it? And to an extent I don't blame them. They took the public stance of "screw gamers, you'll buy what we tell you to" and have made more money now than ever before, so we totally deserve it. Killing Whfb should have devestated GW, it did the opposite cos as fans, we will eat shit and say thank you sir. So I totally agree with what you're saying, they wouldn't do it as it would be a small gain for them, big gain for their fans but may dilute future sets of people wanna use old models. Gotta make room for the new super stars I guess.
Are any hobbies cheap though? Gaming, playing instruments, nothings free. The start collecting sets are the best value for money, loadsa cool minis for under £50 (from 3rd party sites) Think theyre probably replacing these with combat patrols though?
@@littleweaselboy2865 Sure, we are spoilt these days with good quality free games, when I was younger the only type of games that were free were demos or shareware. But my point still stands, gaming and other hobbies are generally speaking not free.
@@John.anti-carnist I can make an undead skirmish with around 30 miniatures and a few war engines and elites for around $15 US. In fact, I'll do a few episodes on my channel to prove it.
@@horseradishpower9947 If you were to report on a crime a judge put a reporting restriction in place, you'd probably go to prison. If you were to report on a something and breached any of the many automatic, and not disclosed, restrictions you could also go to prison. Or be fined. There are many, many ways people reporting on a crime could land you in crap. Heck, even if you weren't a bona fide reporter, you could be landed with all sorts for breaching this stuff. Not relevant to the video, naturally, just a little quip about UK law.
@@gameswithtoasty3246 So... what you are saying, then... is that it is illegal to report on a crime in the UK. Also, bona fide journalist... who determines that? Which goes into the topic of information control. I will take what you say at face value, and conclude that the UK is a dictatorship, because of all of these laws you have highlighted to control what is said and known.
@@janczaplinski658 Interesting you bring that up, since LEGO prices tend to vary depending on whether or not a set is from a licensed theme or an in-house one. What's to stop someone from sourcing the necessary elements for a low-value licensed set separately and building it for half the cost?
One big problem Guy, GW discovered their legal ground to produce the old miniatures was very poor due to the lack of documentation, this during the case against Chapter House. GW have screwed their artists blind for years with constrictive and unfair contracts and have now discovered most of them no longer want to have anything to do with them. GW actually lost a lot of IP from this case, as no documents of agreement between artists and them could be produced as GW did not store these documents. Thus you can find the old Men at Arms miniatures being sold by their original creators at The Foundry, although they originally appeared in the GW catalogues, with other original artists turning to Kickstarter and other platforms to bring back production of their work. Have you ever wondered why the Perry brothers have little to do with GW now?
I'd assume it was because the Perry Brothers knew they had enough clout to strike out on their own, just like Duncan did. I have to imagine that losing those IP was the reason GW had stopped using contract labor decades ago, bringing model design completely in-house around the time 40k and fantasy started to really crystalize (which is also probably why White Dwarf went from an industry news format to a company-centric one). Also, most of what they "lost" in the Chapter House case was specifically stuff that DIDN'T have models (which made them fair game) or had very generic names (Space Marine vs. Adeptus Astartes).
@Matthew Grosse "GW have screwed their artists blind for years with constrictive and unfair contracts and have now discovered most of them no longer want to have anything to do with them." huh?
@@giantnerd14 not about "clout". The Perry's have always been huge fans of historical periods and have sculpted ranges that are with Wargames Foundry etc. They were never constricted by much more than time, having been part of GW for so long I am led to believe their contracts were not the same as later ones which prevented sculptors working for anyone outside of GW - which TBH isn't that unusual.
@@canningmatthew I think it's a little about clout. They knew they had enough recognition of their talent to maintain a customer base. You can have the best sculpts out there, but if nobody knows who you are you don't have a great chance at succeeding. Also, I think what the OP was talking about with the screwing over of artists is that GW (like a lot of companies back then and now) hired their artists as independent contractors instead of employees. It's not a system I am a fan of, but that's how it was.
That bit about the 3D gave me an idea: What if GW offered a HeroForge like service for customising HQ options? It could even be possible to include all those old style bits.
The prerogative of the company is only to make money, if it's not a game that they care about selling anymore, then they don't care. It is illegal and they will shut you down for it no questions asked. Literally does not matter whether they were making money on it or not, doesn't matter if they were ever going to make money on it ever again
Never see the light of day... except for people playing the physical cartridges on the actual game consoles. The idea that emulation is necessary to play old games is completely absurd.
Damn it, it's not theft. It's infringement. Whether you think it's ok or not (intellectual property vs personal property rights) if you're not removing something it's not theft. That's why it's solved through civil law not the police. There are more nuances but hearing people call it theft is a pet peeve.
I think that other than just ignorance, the other reason people call it "theft" is the perception of entitlement. The company is *entitled* to have that product sold for a profit, so if someone is getting it for free, then that's counted as direct money lost from the company's moral entitlements. It's the same reasoning behind how the music industry claimed billions in lost revenue from online distribution of songs ~15 years ago or whatever it was. They felt entitled to the sales and thus assumed that everyone who pirated would have otherwise bought their music.
@@tonyennis1787 With theft you are taking something from someone, making them lose a thing they invested production costs in and denying them return on that investment. Infringement/piracy you are just denying them a potential return on their investment.
Very well said Iain. Part of me wants to slap sense into these otherwise good folk and tell them to snap the hell out of it - modern copyright law as we know is literally a legal fiction lobbied for by disney. It doesn't protect artists; it protects monopolies. Its immoral. Its corrupt. And its wrong.
Or maybe it's completely moral since you have the rules. Then you can play it however you like and have fun: with bottlecaps, similar or alternative models, recasts or 3d-printed model.
@@TetsugakuSan Sorry it may be illegal, but it's not immoral to me immoral is having people spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours building and painting their fantasy army, just to have the company pull the plug on the game and leave us all with those models collecting dust on a shelf or in a box somewhere, immoral is raising your prices in the middle of a pandemic and every new release when people around the world are in lock down.
they already know, GW is the dumbest company ive ever seen that hasnt gone out of business yet, they owe everything they have right now to die hard fans and old board gamers, once we all die of covid, GW is history.
@@arfived4 Yeah i have a couple of lead containing minis from that era (But i didnt exist back then so i wouldnt know if theres such a problem) and theyre good from what i can tell.
"Lead Rot" is the formation of lead carbonate in the presence of ethanoic (acetic) acid. It can destroy a lead-rich miniature because the carbonate reacts with the air and moisture to make more ethanoic acid, so the cycle is self-sustaining. Lead carbonate is a yellow-white or grey-white powdery solid, so its formation eats away at the structure of a figure, especially very early hollow-cast lead from the early to mid 20th century. It's easily prevented by good storage, also by priming them properly, and I have unpainted miniatures from the early 80s that are as good as they day they were cast.
A fellow from Russia, so i know a thing or two about recasts) We have recasts of both old and newer models, sometimes at absurdly low prices with more than tolerable quality even for painting, especially if you can wield a knife properly). For reference-an official box with a 10-girl squad of sisters of battle that we can buy from our stores will cost us 3500 roubles(50€ give or take), a recaster sells for 1200-1800 roubles, which is 2-3 times cheaper than the official stuff. Recaster also quite often sell separate parts in bundles or even by 1 piece. Wait, do you want a full lascannon devastator squad, or 5 power swords for your vanguard veterans? Do you want specific pauldrons, capes, helmets, 10 plasma guns to put in your squads? You don’t have to buy a whole box for them! The biggest thing that i furiates me personally is ForgeWorld, and their models. A contemptor drednought without the arms! costs 50€, and each set of weapons will cost you an additional 15€ a piece, For a full model you are forced to pay 80€, which wouldnt be so bad, if it wasnt for two things. DELIVERY COSTS AND QUALITY. Today it is better-you finally HAVE an option for a cheap delivery of 15€. Before, 2-3 years earlier, it used to be just 50€ and up. Its almost as bad as Australia! Also, the quality was...mostly shit. Perhaps ForgeWorld hates us russians, but all the models that arrived were warped and had mouldline the size of a football field. In the end, recasters came in, offering the same contemptor drednought with 2 weapons at virtually the same quality, even better in certain things, for 25€. 3 times cheaper and delivery that didn’t force you to sell a kidney to the shadey looking guy around the corner! As a cherry on top-we don’t even have the luxury of directly ordering stuff, instead receiving a choice of things that our distributers ordered from GW. Covid didnt pull its punches, and the shelves were BARREN. For us it is often the very question of affordability that forces us to make the choice in favor of recasts. Both price-wise, and availability-wise. Also-the recasters are not shady, there arent actually that many of them that have a decent enough model line a good quality, and they are well-known in the community. Some even offer custom models, which can be GORGEOUS. Good luck trying to find Blood Pact minis, GW doesnt care. But the recasters do). It is always a choice, whether or not to buy recasts, but what is better long-term for the hobby-a large diverse market and fanbase, using both official and non-official models, or a stagnating market where one company makes all the decisions for you and annually increases prices, making the hobby less and less available? Wait a minute...блять.
The point about 3D printing is real important. I've actually been using retro bits, scanned and remade, for some digital kitbashing for printed minis. You could already pretty much print off an army for less than a percent of the price of buying it from GW. On good resin printers like an Elegoo, you can't even see the grain of the printing lines after you paint it up.
Or you can make an entire army for the price of a few boxes and just have them as cardboard although it’s not as intimidating if you have like 5 carboard baneblade
I printed off 2000 points of Necrons for about 1/5th of the price.. never buying official GW minis again. I think that the fact that there are 1:1 printable copies of most of GW's products out there just shows that the value is in the gaming system, rather than the miniatures themselves. If GW got on the printing bandwagon, they might get a head start on staying relevant
According to the documentation I have seen so long as you do the modeling/scanning yourself and use at least one official GW bit they literally said they have no problem with it
@@MidwinterMinis i used to make papercraft vehicles, they take A LOT OF TIME to be made, i don't like to assemble plastic vehicles from warhammer 40k, but i do like papercraft, so that's the reason.
Sauce? GW hardly ever sells them, has never offered the majority of back catalogue even once,, makes tiny runs when they do at a price premium. They either have no interest in offering them OR are trying to keep the old stuff locked away to steer people towards a culture of focusing upon the latest hotness
Print on demand books allow roleplaying books to stay in print for as long as the company has the license. 3D printing could very well do the same thing for miniatures.
Man, I don't miss many of the old sculpts, but I do miss the old mail order process. I remember the old GW white shipping boxes with the troll on the front. Sometimes you would even find stuff in your box you didn't order.
Not really sure why a company that makes its money from selling miniatures, is going to give its customers the ability to mass-produce (and potentially sell) their own models, likely for a small up-front cost.
@@arfived4 If it's for minis that they no longer believe are profitable enough to continue producing themselves, why not? Worst case, they find that they retired something too soon.
@@ArynCrinn GW's business model is based on it having a monopoly on the figures for their game. If you can print, or can pay someone to print, a slightly-out-of-date army for a fraction of the cost of a new one, why would you buy the official GW material? The difference between, say, an 80's Space Marine with a bolter and a modern Space Marine with a bolter, is entirely cosmetic.
@@arfived4 anyone that wants to pirate GW products is already doing so. But as we've seen with music, video games, television shows like GoT and even Dungeons and Dragons, piracy can be great for business. Also, there are plenty of people like me who have monthly subscriptions to things they hardly ever use, like Dndbeyond. I'd definitely jump in to a Warhammer subscription if it meant reducing the barrier to entry from ~$600 to something around $15- $20 a month. Yeah, obviously it's less than what they make on people currently in the hobby, but it's a while lot more than they get from me currently.
@@Baldur825 Piracy only works if the illicit consumer comes back later as a legitimate customer. If you can buy 'fake' GW models for less than the official ones, there's no reason to ever make that switch, and no money in it for GW - they don't make money from you playing the game, just the stuff that you need to play it. I could see how a subscription service could work on a 'pay per print' basis, but I can't see how it would reduce the barrier of entry for most wannabe players - 3D printers are scarce and expensive, and most people get into Warhammer in their teens.
Due to it’s size and market reach, GW serves as the gateway to miniature war gaming for the majority of new comers. Many of these then move onto other game systems as well, supporting the wider industry.
It’s the battle for his soul not his profits. He will make money but people will leave and people will switch to different games and people will 3D print because “fuck James and his workshop”. I was brought in through black library so there’s a magic there for me that’s untouched by prices, meta, rules, favouritism etc If you don’t have a love for the company I think a lot of people, instead of playing a xenos army with old models and rules, would be playing a half-orc paladin in DnD.
@@Sc4recrow44 They are still a billion dollar company with a brainwashed following... People didn't think they would last throughout the early 2000's when oldhammer was failing them
@@stevenfitzgerald2214 Games Workshop as a company are 90% of the reason I don't really play any more. I refuse to give them money when for probably the last 20-odd years they've been doing everything in their power to shut out and gate off their game from the average consumer. Constant price hikes, retiring of old models, shutting down anyone trying to make spare parts for models (not even recasts, but new original sculpts of models that GW have never and would never have sold). There's a reason they call it plastic crack - they make the intro boxes nice and affordable to get you into the hobby, then jack up the prices of any half decent units and sell them in ridiculously sized/priced boxes while actively trying to shut down any and all competition. Also also while giving IP rights to any shovelware developer who wants to make a GW branded video game regardless of quality because money. GW have done everything they can to create and maintain a monopoly and fuck over their customers in every way they can think of in the name of more profit. I have respect for the art they create, but I utterly loathe their business practices and the way they treat their staff and customers.
@@Sc4recrow44 Hopefully! They seem to be on another path of pushing people out again. You would think they could make things more affordable... especially since it's all plastic and no pewter.
When the company puts models at such stupidly high prices because they know you have to buy 2 or 3 of those boxes to have a decent army, that's kinda extorting, so a bit of recasting won't kill games workshop and will save you money.
The problem with GW is that they charge a ridiculous amount of money for their character models. Too much. This is because they know that they are a necessity for an army to function. It's how they get super high profits out of something that costs so little to make compared to a tank or a full unit. A $40 space marine hero costs $6 from a re-caster.
i mean outside design prices storage space, employ wages, making the molds ,community staff wages and transport i'm sure they make a ton of money on the characters
Actually if you understood how production works, you'd realize that characters sell less that units you can buy multiple of for your army. Therefor when GW is manufacturing them, they have to create less units because there is less demand. Manufacturing less units means their price per unit is much higher to make than units people will buy 3-6 boxes of. It costs them much more to make characters and thus costs us more to buy them. Very basic manufacturing and MSRP principles.
@@leegarner4592 That's a good idea. I can just order the desired bits from GW...oh, wait... The assumption of "just use your existing leftover bits" assumes that you have already purchased product and have leftover bits. The assumption that someone has bins with 25 years worth of extra parts is pretty much GW propaganda.
@mandellorian I run ad-blockers and don't use FB so I can't comment on that. My comment was based on my experiences trying to find recasters on google. The stuff I do find is very wink-wink, as if this were a drug deal.
I don’t collect Warhammer but have done a cursory search out of curiosity and had trouble finding sources but I think my lack of familiarity with the GW models. Without explicit references to GW or mentioning what the unit is specifically, I can’t tell if it’s a recast or a proxy.
@@medusaminiatures4006 hell I'd Make a bet give me 10,000 dollar and I'd be able to hire enough designers to make firgures of every character and soldier during the crusade big E and the gods to
Let's just remember that they screwed over everybody with age of shitmar. Honestly, I don't feel sad for a faceless Corporation whatsoever and if they want to keep going the route they are going by partnering with Marvel and currently Magic the Gathering after their repeated blunders then honestly I'm going to just ditch the IP in its entirety
@@Arisawa_Heavy_IndPLEASE private message me where to get those, my friend is making a bretonnia army and i am making mousillion (bretonnia) themed vampire counts. Thank you in advance kind sir!
@@MidwinterMinis That pile is slowly growing into a mountain; someday penny will have to climb it to find you hidden in a cavern near the top finishing off that warlord Titan!
I used to collect orks and space wolves, and paint commissions in the late 90s I wish I hadin't sold em. Cause now I actually want to play the game. :(
GW: Kids nowadays aren't gonna want a catalogue for our mini- Me, a kid from nowadays: GIMME BOOK! GW: But... We've updated our ways of- Me: G I M M E B O O K ! ! !
@Patrick Swan we are in the middle of an economic recession and Britain’s currency needs to stabilise after leaving the EU. Obviously is going to take a while but it will stabilise eventually
We totally bought a spin caster and mold rubber and cast Space marines in Austin in the 1990s. We got the bulk of our lead at street corners where tire weights commonly fall off tires. A lot of times we were using cast legs to go with extra plastic kit arms and torsos. In the end we ended up learning how to sculpt and cast our own original figures. So it was less piracy and more of a learning experience. We NEVER sold any of them. More often we melted the down for the metal and cast them into other things as needed. What a hobby!!!!!!
A reminder that GW is currently charging almost the entire price of the Indomitus box for a new box set containing half the sprues of said box, and I'm posting this from America, which already has a spike up from its UK pricetag, more than covering the import price.
@@theophrastusbombastus1359 To be fair, the US doesn't set import duties for other countries. Countries do that to themselves to "protect" their own businesses (the US does it too).
For me, if it's stuff that they no longer make and adamantly swear they won't cast new ones for you.. then why not. It's GW's own fault for not being savvy enough to realize that people love the old models and want to continue to use them. (especially things like High Elves or Bretonia that no longer exist) Now recasting your own.. I also have no problem with that in certain regards. When it comes to super rare parts that you want multiples of it's really your only choice. My biggest use for it would be in modifying models to fit my idea of what they should look like from my interpretation of the lore or if I write my own story and want to modify the models to make something new. One such case was I wrote a story where orcs were twisted by the power of Chaos and became massive hulks covered with bones sprouting out of their skin, massive sharp teeth, incredible muscles and would be even larger than a troll. To make those I'd have to do a LOT of cutting and stretching and filling in the gaps. Instead of using a regular model, I might want to cast a copy and then start hacking that up and modifying it. Similarly at some point you might get to where you love the shape of your converted model but want to go even further with it but not risk what you've already done, so you might want to cast that and then take your recasts of your converted model (that might only barely resemble the GW model at this point) and then modify them from there too.
@@tristanpritchard7253 another idea is where I wanted to make Tzeentch Horrors that fit the lore better.. they are supposed to be ever changing not locked to one common shape and I think you could have some real fun with making them look weird. Though if I had them I'd take it to the insanity level and turn them into things that people fear.. like they take on your deepest fear. You may have some that look like spiders, some that look like blood, some that look like Elmo, some that take shapes beyond human reason.. like Peewee Herman.. I definitely like adding some references and stuff into the game and have fun with it on top of just making scary stuff.. Oh and the Elmo thing.. I used to work with a guy that was scared to death of him, said he had a dream that Elmo killed him.. I actually cured him of it because we worked at Walmart and I worked in toys and it was the re-release of Tickle Me Elmo and I kept walking up behind him with them until he stopped being afraid.. was fun while it lasted though :P
This reminds me of a similar issue regarding lore. I love Warhammer Fantasy lore and greatly appreciate the work of Rick Priestly and others in regards to their work on the old Army Books and Rule Books. Games Workshop no longer sell these books, and so are not making any money over these antiquated works, but at the same time make an active effort to shut down the sharing of PDFs online? It's so strange and sad to see these brilliant works simply lost to the ages...
If they 3D printed the bits and legacy stuff using old sprues and failed casts then it would also reduce the environmental impact of the hobby as well.
Funny thing about recasters is: I get BETTER quality resin casts from them than directly from GW or Forgeworld at 1/3 of the cost, and to top it off, pay much less for shipping (GW charges $17 for orders under $130).
I bought a recast and it was missing a few bits and was thin in some places but I could sculpt something up with greenstuff. But that was one kit out of 5 I bought. I get authentic Forgeworld kits and I spent 2 hours per kit trying to fix each kit. The warping on straight pieces is ridiculous.
@@markhohenbrink5230 My third-party female necrons from some guy's garage in Ukraine are infinitely better quality than the resin crypteks. One of the ones I got had a staff that looked like a chewed-up popsicle stick. The third-party model? So perfect there wasn't even any flash, let alone having to bend shit back into place. Literally, just assemble and paint.
Going to say that at least part of this(the lower cost) is because it's one guy casting miniatures in his living room who doesn't have to pay huge overhead, entire departments of artists and designers, the casting team, advertising, etc etc etc. No wonder he can sell you a mini for $5 instead of $45. As for the better quality, most of the FW stuff I've gotten has been fine - yes it takes a bit of work now and then to fill a couple of bubbles or deal with some warped parts. But keep in mind that FW has to cast resin miniatures to fill a worldwide demand. While they may not be able to do a super minute inspection of each and every single part that gets cast, their customer service has always been great. I was recently missing a torso piece from a squad that I ordered, and they refunded me the entire price of the purchase because the kit was out of stock at the time. I honestly can't complain about that. (It's also really not hard to hit the free shipping threshold, let's be honest)
Yeah that's the basic one as well. If you had Operation Dreadnought you got the option to have ones with longer legs and four weapons on them. Was a crazy time, miss those old Chaos Dreadnoughts...
Bought a lasrifle section from forgeworld about half of the rifles were broken and almost all models had moldslip on the armour panels. If this had happend on a recast model that costs me about 35€ i wouldnt mind but where i live a lasrifle section from forgeworld costs 98€.
recast forgeworld hierophant often have inbuilt wire supports for the super delicate limbs. Otherwise you buy legit and butcher the model to make sure it won't break on you.
@@ScionoftheDreadwing Did you get in touch with their customer service and have them replace it for you? Because that's what you do when you get broken pieces or massive mold slips on expensive resin models. And yes, FW should happily send you replacements because they want to keep you as a customer.
@@ScionoftheDreadwing So what's the issue? They fixed the problem for you, sounds like you're all good. I won't argue that FW prices can be high, but I still don't think that "I don't feel like paying the prices that the company that produces the minis for my luxury hobby sets" is an excuse for buying recasts.
Dude, same. I've still got a slew of unpainted models from the fifth edition boxed set in my basement. Painted three skinks today, will attempt three Bret archers next weekend. I looked up some of the models on ebay and it's true, the prices are nuts.
If 'underground' markets provide a better service than the legit company, that's were people will go. Simple. The price has sky rocketed over the years and GW for some reason are unwilling to take people's money for out of print stuff to be printed so hobbyists will buy them off someone with a 3D printer.
Gabe Newel described how to combat piracy perfectly, he likened piracy with accessibility, the more accesible you make your product the less incentive for an actual customer to go get a pirated product.
Yeah totally agree, this will inevitably happen when cheaper options exist. Stop something that people liked and they'll just do it anyway and we a silly enough to think a crime is being committed 👍
I purchased my first Land Raider for 35 bucks, now it is at 65. Reason? Production prices, shipment and stuff didn't go up by 85,71%. It is just greed. And still the same gaps, flaws, bends in the model...
I mean, a 3d printer good enough to make ok-ish warhammer minis is only like 200-400 bucks. The downside is you have to find warhammer 3d models online or make them yourself
@@mrmora1673 warhammer STL files are incrediby easy to find if you know where to look. Trust me. I have basically the entire line of custodes forgeworld models in STL files on a harddrive.
“The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work. It’s by giving those people a service that’s better than what they’re receiving from the pirates.” ~Gaben If GW actually gave us afordible stuff, if they actually cared to balance there game and not just make the latest codex OP to sell more stuff, if they actually focused on giving everyone codexes rather than 2 every 6 months, if they stopped attacking content creators like Emperor TTS, if they stopped just being overall greedy goblins then I would start buying from them. Until then I will go out of my way to find a recast or a 3d print of a model.
You brought nuance to this discussion, and attempted to come up with actual answers to the root causes of the issue without patronizing anyone. I appreciate that. A few years back I was strongly considering jumping through the hoops to get recasts of Tallarn, because GW just doesn't sell them anymore (despite going on to show them in the most recent Guard codex). I would have payed $40 for a squad of metal Tallarn, I just wanted them for Kill Team, but I felt like I was forced to seek out recasters because I had no other options. At least, I felt like I didn't. In the end I settled for 3rd party bits, sculpting, and Cadians.
GW doesn't want you to be looking back at old models: they want you drooling over NEW models: NEW EXPENSIVE MODELS: Guy: you have 2 boxes of Indomitas in the background of your video. Why? You bought 2, as did I, because you knew they would sell-out, nd if you wanted more you'd have to pay full price; it doesn't matter that I have 3 editions of unpainted W40K + another 3 special boxes, (and even more WFB, AoS, WHQuest, Space Hulk, ..... We buy now, BECAUSE it will go OUT OF PRODUCTION, and sometime, someday, we will all have enough time to paint all the models we've bought. GW likes this approach: as you pointed out, it's massively increased their share-price....and they want to continue to make models (and money), until 3D home printing puts their factories out of business.
Can't argue with the buying extra idea. Back when I was playing 40K (late 80's/early 90's) They came out with the Praetorian box set for the Imp Guard. I grabbed 2 of them at the time planning on building a new guard army (one was E-bayed about 10 years ago, other is still here with maybe 10 figs painted and many extra blister packs tossed in with it). Then 4th ed came out and I walked away about the time they went 5th. Still played Battlefleet and Warmaster till they died also. Lesson learned was NEVER buy into a new GW system because they will bleed you dry and then abandon you. After that went back into Historical minis full time, rules may change but a Tiger I is the same every time. Nothing annoys me more then laying out for all the support books only to have them rewrite everything just as I get it (Flames of War, and GW), or shifting focus of the game from infantry to tanks because it is cheaper to produce and has a higher profit margin (Again FoW). Matter of fact have no problem with tweaking the rules provided you do not have to buy hundreds of bucks worth the support stuff AGAIN. Or have to rebuy you entire army you spent years collecting and painting because THEY want a paycheck. Ok, rant over but what I do see in the future is as 3D printing gets cheaper you will see a market for older printed material as people start replaying systems from their childhood. Also big unit count historical games (Napoleonics, ACW, WWI, and the like) will see a comeback as figures become affordable. Next step will be game companies who write a rules set and sell you a PDF copy of it with 3D files for the units over the internet. Maybe put you in some sort of Que to be able to order new stat and print files for additional units as they come out (got to try and stop the piracy somehow). Or even have paid users be allowed to get some sort of print file that goes straight to their printing software they give you. Have it check before printing to make sure you are a valid customer. I am sure things are about to change soon and the whole market will be upended. Greedy Companies may not be able to bully their way out of this one for a change.
I would love to be able to order specific parts from Forge world. Last year I picked up a pretty big Word Bearers army and discovered that some of the vehicles where assembled pretty badly and specifically the Las cannons for the Spartan Assault tank really needs replacing. I don't have time or the skills to rebuild them so I'm left to scratching my head from time to time when ever I pick it up and try to get something done. I would really like to have the ability to order replacement parts, it would make my hobby so much more enjoyable.
I buy my Death Korps models from a recaster because I dont want to pay 60€ for a 55point unit that will die in the first round. And because the quality if the recasts I buy is as good as if not even better than forgeworld.
at the moment building official forgeworld models: yeah the quality isn't perfect, I've seen recast online which are better quality of the Death Korps I'm building now....
I’ve bought recasts over the years and the actual resin used isn’t gaming quality, for me anyway. It’s far too brittle so yeh, detail wise you might be getting a great deal but don’t expect spines/banners/weapons to stay intact
@@fartpantsmcgee8493 like you, i am also disgusted by the idea of such a vile site. I would also like to know where it is so i never by anything from those darn bastards
I'm a Patreon for a designer that often designs near perfect replicas of well OOP GW models and often missing parts. He said sometimes GW has issue with it, sometimes not. It's interesting to see which sets off their trigger.
I can think of a legion of Brettonians I'd love to have without needing to pay a tout's annual take. I'm also a bit pissed that the Blackstone Fortress expansions went out of production so quickly, although with that bit I'd need a re-printer as well as a recaster. Cursed City it is then...
Ok at 8:37 one of the items is a barrel. I came across two of these barrels and used them for my Kit bashed Ork Kommandos as back packs. They look very nice on them with all bunch of other stuff strapped to the barrels like grenades, choppas, and other junk that a Kommando would need like his Space marine trophies. Never realized that it was an old part. I just came across it at a GW. The manager was a great guy who would take any spare bits from people and then give them to people who asked for those spare bits. He eventually left GW and opened his own store, which meant every customer he built a good relationship with stopped going to GW store and to his store instead. Don’t go to that GW anymore because of a bad management and the fact that there’s a chance you’ll have your models stolen. It’s in a somewhat seedy area. One guy had like 70 ork boys stolen when he wasn’t looking. These weren’t normal boys. They were all painted and kit bashed to look like they were all wearing wife beater shirts and had beer bottles as choppas. Sorry for the rambling just got on the thought and continued to type.
This might be your best video yet. Interesting, entertaining, controversial, educational and really well presented and edited. Much respect to you sir.
I have recasts, 3D printed, official and "alternative" (proxy) models. I buy recasts when the GW business model is obviously predatory (limited editions, bundled with tons of crap you don't need, steeply overpriced) and have no issues with whatever people choose to do. I could buy only the cheapest option every time, but I buy genuine products when I don't feel like the company is scamming me just because IP laws give them a monopoly.
I have been using press molds with green stuff to make bits for quite a while now. I would definitely recommend it. I will never run out of out-of-production bits.
As an ageing hobbyist, i have been in and out of GW products for close on 30 years. The hobby has changed enormously over time and the quality of the kits has improved beyond imagination. However, the costs are also almost beyond imagination as well. The days of being able to pop into the store and buy 2 blisterpacksn to get hold of 4 or 5 new miniatures are gone. That made the hobby fun and affordable. I moved to Australia about 5 years ago and costs here are double or more than in the UK. I rarely buy anything new as 30dollars for a single grunt figure is way out of control. While i understand the issues with recasts, GW have made a bed they now have to lie and accept the recasters will not go away. They have begun to price themselves out of the market. I think Guy makes a great argument for the corporation of GW to engage with recasters/3D printer etc and listen to their to the people who keep them going. I have not purchased anything direct from GW for about 4 years as the 'local hobby store' has GW stuff at 20% below RRP. ..... Work that one out.
Same here. I'm in the uk and ,before the lockdowns, me and my son used to go to GW and game with others on a sunday afternoon..but did i buy stuff there? Not a chance when the shop 10 mins walk away has all the items for 20% off. Makes zero sense..
One thing that is lost a bit by the wayside next to seeing the recast topic only with the focus on GW is: The mentality of "recasting being ok, because it's only Games Workshop" and "Gw StUfF iS tOo ExPeNsiVe!!11" that a lot of people have, kills us small miniature producers. There has been incidents where one single recaster sold 20 times the numbers of a figure the original designer/sculptor was able to sell. Recasters take (steal) a product that took hundreds of workhours and/or a lot of money to produce, bypass all of these costs and sell you a crappy copy for 1/10 of the price. And then some people even say "just adapt to it, bro."
Sometimes recasting just makes sense. Roger Moore was 57 years old when he was recast with Timothy Dalton. It just needed to be done - he was starting to look too old to be a convincing James Bond anymore.
... and Val Kilmer was the best Batman
Ok, Kilmer is better then Clooney. Kilmer makes a good Bruce Wayne.
@@MidwinterMinis take that back!
If you reel in a boot, ya gotta recast
@@MidwinterMinis Them's fighting words.
If GW could start releasing legacy models or the STLs of the newer minis once they go out of production to companies that can cast/print small custom runs, I imagine it'd have a similar effect that Steam did on video game piracy. Who wants to deal with the faff and potential downsides of piracy when getting the legit thing is cheap and easy?
@@BloopTube setup cost and all the time and experimentation you need to get even halfway decent results. 3D printer people have some of the biggest biases I've ever seen when it comes to being honest about how easy it is to start.
It would cannibalize plastic sales, and why bother to pay GW when you can get the STL off a website. Same thing happens with PDFs of the rules
EDIT: Copy pasting a comment I made elsewhere:
DRM doesn't work in most cases for a start. Its almost always broken within weeks of release
Second of all, about 3d printing (Keep in mind here, I own a resin printer and have been messing with the hobby since ~2012, but i'm mostly going to talk about resin printing here):
3d printing is its own hobby, its not easy, its not exactly cheap to set up, and its not safe enough for end user use right now. Resin is toxic and needs special handling, FDM machines can be actual fire hazards.
GW would see either minimal benefits or potentially massive downsides to supporting 3d printing.
First of all, it would cannibalize their plastic sales, which is straight away a negative for them,
Second of all they lose quality assurance for the product (Cleaning, supports, printer, resin, temperature are all big variables),
Third they now have to deal with piracy that is literally copying a file. Almost impossible to actually trace.
Fourth, they lose all repeat sales of a product they sold as an STL from printers.
3d printing isn't like the music industry, its a specific method that needs specialist equipment and knowledge to use, and the final result can vary, while also providing a worse quality result than GW plastic production (Even 0.05 or 0.025mm layer lines are still visible and can show up, FW has these on some of their newer resin casts as they 3d print the masters and in the right light they are visible).
What Guy said about licensing a company to do the 3d printing? Thats viable for them. But GW will never sell STLs because thats shooting their own business in the back of the head.
They don't want the old models to be a cheaper alternative to the current lineup though. But they should be available at some price - if recasting is cheap and easy, GW refusing to sell some version of old models is bad PR and lowers the bar for buying illegal recasts.
@@jollyjoker6340 old models aren't just a price thing, they're primarily a desired aesthetics thing. Most of it is people liking the look of an old kit.
Exactly! Like Abandonware, but for Warhammer!
GW: *no longer sells or make single bits or old models*
People with 3D printers: "Fine. I'll do it myself."
I understood that reference
With a half finished army what other option is there?
GWs shenanigans warrant a recast revolution
The minute I get a printer with a scanner I’m cloning my platoon of riders intercessors and captain.
@@doopdoopdopdop7424 noice!
I am planning something with separate buts similar to give all the spare parts some purpose.
Fuck man. If I'd bought shares instead of Space Wolves at age 14 - I might actually have been able to afford this hobby.
Yep me too, I wasted my mums offer of shares when they floated on the stock market for some green skins. Oh well, you live and learn.
@@tristanpritchard7253 I mean. their stock did pretty much nothing for almost a decade before it took off in 2016. How could you have known? The same goes for crypto. "If I had invested X in 2016" well, basically no one did.
I would highly recommend gaslands.....its cheap and fun. the modeling aspect is as easy or hard as you want it to be
You would have made even more buying rare warhammer mini sets and never open them, a mint edition original space hulk game and expansion went for 100.000 pounds at Suthersby's a few years ago.
"It's a business expense" is my mantra
great way to get past the boss yo.
"Inventory"
When GW starts respecting it’s customer’s wallets, I’ll start respecting their stance on recasts.
@@Darkvoidninja you miss spelled "wife"
Woah mikey! Didn't expect to see you here! Does this mean we get sisters of battle fan art- **BLAM**
Jesus. I cant imagine selling a treasure trove like this... I hope whatever pushed Lee to do this isnt chasing him to wherever he goes to restart his life.
Thought it was lockdown in entrainment industry.
The newly instituted global tyranny follows us all.
Your waffling
@@gillesdoranoreilly5601 ..what?
@@beeeeeesbury wa do u not understand u not understand and why tf should I care
I made the Red and Blue Catalogues, when I used to run the GW mail order dept, took me a year, learning graphic design as I went :)
NO WAY. I literally just opened up the blue catalogue looking for your name... and it's literally the 8th word, haha. Well, you did an awesome job! :)
You did a fantastic job , man. What program did you use at that time?
@@MidwinterMinis hey bud great work on all your videos as always. Thought provoking stuff. I had a question about the darkworld stuff that was in your retro showcase. I've been looking for expansions for that game for ages and would very much be interested in obtaining them off you if you wanted to part with them
Then you were a hero of mine. I worshipped those books
I still reread those books every now and then, I’ve had them for decades, they’re awesome. Thanks!
When warhammer world first opened in the late 90s, they had all the catalogues on a big table in the middle of the shop (argos style for those from the UK). You could order any parts that you wanted directly and they would go and get them for you. If they didn't have it in stock, they would cast one for you on the spot!
I miss those days.
I went warhammer world a few years ago and they casted me a squad of mk3 assault marines and brought them to us when we were sat in bugmans bar
Sure, but there were no high detailed, cheap plastic kits. It's not just about "The Hobby" it's also about "The Industry" - it takes mass production for this cool stuff to happen.
@@herculeholmes504 tbf it was forge world stuff, but I do see where you are coming from. Unfortunately I only got into 40k when i was 9 in 2010 so Im a tad young for the cooler old metal stuff from back in the day. However I do want to make a vostroyan kill team and maybe have them as a 2nd army after drukhari
My local GW store used to have order forms that you could fill in and hand over your money and a week later you'd go back and pick the bits up. I really miss the ability to order bits like that
"It's a reasonable business decision" - that right there is your answer. GW doesn't do reasonable.
As a business, they are doing more than reasonably well. They know what they are doing.
I really like the idea of them selling the files to 3D print legacy models. It would solve so many problems while still letting them make their cut.
They never would do that. Simply because you cannot sell the same rogue trader space marine to the same person twice or more times. GWs are greedy
It would make them less money. You have limited money and limited shelf space and limited time. GW is trying to take all of the money and they don't do that if they max out your time by having you fiddle with some other company's 3D printer and resin or use up all your shelf space on penny a piece models rather than their $3 per model.
Id love to get the casteus assault ram, but it was an expensive FW model, not a best seller probably, out of production model and i live in sweden.
If i wanted to get a second hand version of it, it would probably cost me 3000 SEK( like 300$).
Just fuck that!
@@jasongrundy1717 They could outsource the printing. Sites like Shapeways allow for that. GW provides legit and quality scans and files. Shapeways does the printing. The Consumer gets the old model they wanted. GW gets a cut and is still in control of the files. The consumer has an easy transaction without having to set up and print themselves. GW wouldn't have to worry about inventory or maintenance either. It would all be made to order and outsourced.
@@VladimirKharchenko better than not getting any money at all as I can bring up quite a few already for free
If FW's quality was as high as their price then recasting wouldn't be so much of an issue.
This is how I feel. Some of the models are worth it but only very rarely.
Even if it was all diecast metal and not cheap plastic most of it wouldn't be worth the highway robbery prices they charge
A lot of recasts I’ve seen are just better.
@@ImaNecron I agree. I have some recastdtbst are amazing. I live in Australia so FW stuff is more expensive for us than anywhere in the world bar New Zealand. At one point it was cheaper to fly to the UK to but a Warlord titan and fly home rather than pay FW's outrageous shipping prices.
For long time last model I bought from FW was Astraeus after its release ... the cast was ok ... but there were some serious fitting problems that I do not believe correspond to the price tag on it ... so I asked for replacement ... then another, then another ... fitting problem remained, but on top of that I got parts with bubbles and coarse surface and details as if the form was not cleaned for long time ... I gave up.
There's little reason to play the boyscout with a company that goes full dirtbag at every opportunity.
Honestly that's my biggest deciding factor in the question of "is recasting/printing/pirating etc okay": how much of a dick is the original IP holder. And for the last two decades or so, GW has been Ron fucking Jeremy.
@@jackrackham3406 As a matter of principle, i don't spend a cent with GW. All recasts, knockoffs, 3d printed and all codex downloaded PDFs. After what they did with the astartes project, fuck them.
@@TenebrusI07 Preach brother. I share PDF's as much as i can and encourage 3dprinting to the max.
@@TenebrusI07 Don't forget TTS. I know not everyone liked the humor or the lore, but you have to admit the sheer amount of work that was required of the series deserves recognition
@@antongunther3977 Yep that just further cemented my hatred of GW. They were already a bad choice to spend money on with how terrible their QC is.
There is a really good book called "Everything I learned about business I learned from the Grateful Dead" Authored by Berry Barnes. In it, he describes how the Grateful Dead had essentially the same problem with counterfeit shirts etc that 3rd parties were selling outside of venues and the like. The Grateful Dead essentially positioned themselves as content creators and rather than taking legal action, provided those third parties with officially licensed merch to sell, improving profits for everyone while maintaining high branding standards. Honestly, it's a no brainer if people are already making money off it to just say "hey, we will let you keep doing what you are doing and provide you higher quality molds but you are going to pay us a fee"
@@paulyg405 The problem with a lot of companies that have been around a long time (around 40-ish years in the case of GW), is that they tend to cling to old, outdated business models that don't neatly integrate with the modern world of consumerism. We saw it with the music industry with Napster back in the 90s, until they were forced to adapt to new trading conditions and started offering cheap digital downloads (Although to be fair with a browser extension, you can get all the music you ever want free of charge off UA-cam but whatever)
Big corporations never look after the fans though. When GW first started it was just a couple of guys who loved their hobby and turned it into a business, but then the suits come in and take over and turn it into a cold, faceless behemoth that treats the fans as nothing more than a bunch of cretins that get between them and their money.
(That's a more or less direct quote from Virginmedia - One or my former work colleagues went to work for Virginmedia in their sales department, and on his induction day, he was told, in very clear terms, (and I quote) "The customer is a cretin between us and our money" )
Sadly it seems that GW is of much the same opinion. These corpos do NOT like us at all. They never have and they never will. They do not understand fandom (just observe the mess that Disney has gotten itself into by attacking their customers and calling them foul names - fortunately GW hasn't quite sunk to Disney levels of anti-consumer thinking, but the danger is ever-present)
Just imagine how great it would be if these companies looked after their customers. What a world that would be...
This is also what KC Green did once his "This is Fine" dog started going viral. Instead of trying to take control of the meme, he pushed for merch super hard with his webcomic collective and now you can buy official This Is Fine plushie dogs and they are Adorable.
Kind of a no shit Sherlock business move
The problem here is, all GW is doing is potentially devaluing its own brand, and providing itself with competition, and they sure as hell won't risk losing control of their IP.
GW makes its money by making and distributing miniatures, and the games are a means to that end. In theory, you could play their games using cardboard counters or marked tiddlywinks (not to mention with other types of mini), but they have cultivated a consumer base that desires official GW products, where the minis match the artwork, and, as the sole supplier, they can charge a premium on that.
By allowing other companies to produce 'official', if older, designs, they leave themselves open to being undercut, where they would have the 'new' official miniatures, where they recouped the full profit, and charge a premium, competing against 'old' official miniatures, where they only received a fee. They would also incur the cost of policing the secondary market, and potentially create a market in illegally cloned official molds.
The simplest way of providing access to their back catalogue, would be to scan the original molds/models and provide an on-demand 3D printing service, where you select what you want on the website, and receive your order by post. I can' t see them ever providing the source files, for the same reason as above.
They could also pair this with a Heroforge-like service, where you can pay a pretty penny for a mini of your own design. This also might see them move more heavily into TTRPGs.
@@paulyg405 If the mini market goes, I can't see GW really being able to keep control of Warhammer as a brand, which will massively devalue its licencing potential - the vertical integration between the rules and the models is what effectively enable them to define and control that universe.
If the miniatures become community sourced, then it's almost certain that the rules will be too, and there'll be as-good-as-official homebrew army lists before you know it. On the plus side, it means the Squats come back, and I may end up being able to fulfill my teenage desire of getting Skaven in 40k.
I don't see this as that likely, however, as the cost of a 3D printer adds a fairly hefty barrier to entry for new players.
There are a few viable ways that they could change for the better, but they would fundamentally need to change their relationship to their community and IP.
I'd like to see them adopting more of an open-source approach, similar to the one WotC takes with D&D (see also TSR's approach to the same property, which mirrored GW at present), with a site containing community contributions (and a possible certification process), and a 'community store', where third-party producers can sell their minis via a GW shopfront. This could possibly lead to the creation of whole new lines, and bring the Squats back, but GW would have to loosen the control on the tone and direction of the universe, but it could well net them a smaller slice of a much larger pie.
Also, I'm pretty sure that there would be a market for Rogue Trader to act as the basis of a skirmish game, supported by a line of old-school re-issues.
Just makes me wanna see a "You wouldn't Recast a Handbag" ad
ua-cam.com/video/964MLq1db4s/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/oVQIB-QuooU/v-deo.html
YOU WOULDN'T RECAST A POLICEMAN
Man, *none* of these replies are referencing the ad I was thinking of. Always got it on DvD's in the UK, with stupidly overdramatic music over the top. Very early 2000s
HMJ66 You wouldn’t recast a policeman’s hat
I bought like 30 Gargoyles, a Hive Tyrant, and 3 venomthropes from a chinese recasting site. Took like three months to show up but they were great quality. And like 20% of GW's retail price.
"2% are recast only. Nice to know I have some Australian viewers." I lost it at this. :'D
When GW has the ability to order individual parts direct, I never once thought about recasting. When the direct service went away, so did some of my desire for the game since I was a poor teenager that loved converting/kit bashing and didn't want to spend $25 for an arm.
I bought everything from china, not recast, real GW stuff, cost around half of the price compare to Australia, Its getting more expensive now because even Chinese retail price got increased, but still cheaper.
@@leonhou7137 What website? I'm a kiwi and frankly the fact that I'm paying 50% more than forex says I should irritates the hell out of me. Warlord games sells it's products at close to what forex says, and they too are designed and made in the UK so it's clearly a policy issue with GW rather than any actual economics reason.
@@ColCaffran Chinese website Taobao which is local version of aliexpress, but no English language supported. they do accept visa and MasterCard payment, and they do ship to New Zealand. both by air and sea, I recently bought a PRIMARIS CHAPLAIN ON BIKE which cost me 47 NZD, plus 13 NZD shipping cost by airmail, by sea will be cheaper if you buy in slightly bigger quantity. airmail took a bit more than a week while sea took a month, but air mail charge you 13 NZD per 500g while sea charge you 13 NZD for the first 500G than each additional 500g will only cost less than a dollar.
@@ColCaffran you're paying 66% more in most cases.
I wish GW would do something like this getting old parts 3d printed or recasted by a 3rd party.
The problem GW will have is the overhead/profit with maintaining both systems. When I buy a plastic intercessor kit I need to buy at least 2 boxes (15 minimum troops). That's X profit that GW makes per box, subtract the cost of the raw materials (I'm leaving this out as it's insignificant), the cost of the Artist (A), the cost of the Marketing (M), and the cost of the sprue (S). So X(total) = X - A - M - S. Now you'd say "if we go to a 3d printed file, that knocks out M and S so I should get a file for cheaper right?", Wrong. The main cost of a new model is the sprue mold (roughly 10-20k per sprue), that cost is then divided over the number of boxes they're expected to sell. More boxes sold, the lower cost per sprue (IMO This is why GW pricing is the way it is). GW wants to keep X(total) as high as possible. If they go to a hybrid model with printed and non-printed models, GW will be incentivized to use the 3d printed files to subsidize the sprue cost to make sure that they don't lose money so X(printed) = X-A-S. Also you're only purchasing a file ONCE. Nobody is stupid enough to think you can control a 3d printed file after it has been released, see why the 40k app exists and they no longer do .epub codexes. So they're now incentivized to price the file as if you're buying the kit multiple times, OR the physical boxes will become even more expensive as GW seeks to maintain the profit level. Also there's the issue of copyright. So IMO if they embrace 3d printing, you're looking at 100 bucks for the "intercessor" kit files. or 100 buck intercessor boxes. I am not defending GW's pricing scheme at all; All I'm saying is that I'm not buying an official intercessor file for the amount I currently pay for files on Patreon (I got most of a TK army files for like 30 bucks). I think your idea of selling the files of either OOP models or random upgrade bits is the way to go here without them going all scrooge McDuck on us (as S no longer exists in this case), and just keep the models in the legends line (not tournament playable).
tl;dr: you think GW pricing is scummy NOW? if they get into the 3d printing realm it's going to get a Whole lot worse.
@G Soap I agree 100% this could work.
They used to do this, as he pointed out in the video.
They stopped it and said that the molds was getting to old, but I am sure it was mostly because of the cost.
@G Soap it could work but that's not how gw operates. There's so many parallels between GW and Nintendo. The way they both leverage their old IP is really odd. Quality IP and some nostalgia for their old products is largely what keeps people passionate about them so they drip feed it out in little teases. Think about the snes and nes mini console things Nintendo released. They were really limited supply and a lot of people couldn't get them. They have a good selection of old games on the 3ds virtual console but there's still loads you can't get including any snes and gba games. In the same way GW waited about 15 years to start supporting necromunda and blood bowl again. Now they're teasing "the old world".
They won't do it. They hoard their IP like a dragon on its treasure.
@@corbingovers7559 I have to disagree, there are companies already offer stls or a mini, granted they are resin minis which some people think are inferior, (I don't) and it works for them. GW will have to look at this option sooner then later or the only people buying their plastics will be the "whales" who buy any of their stuff no matter the price, because they will be the only ones left who can afford their prices the way they keep raising them and giving you less for your money.
Many years ago GW themselves had a recasting tutorial in White Dwarf. It was limited to doing details like you would find on the Chapter upgrade kits now by mucking about with greenstuff and vaseline, but it definitely sparked ideas in nerds of my vintage.
Hilarious that GW would complain about intellectual property theft when the designs for both space marines and Tau armored suits are right of the cover art of Robert A. Heinlein's books.
And space marines only slightly reminiscent of Ralph McQarrie's concept arts...
Years ago I stumbled on a quote or some such that said - If you steal from one source it's plagiarism, if you steal from many, it's research.
Which books of his?
@@biggest_mac5060 Starship Troopers
@@biggest_mac5060You should definitely give it a read if you like 40k, the movie just does not give it justice. It’s more of a parody of the original source than it is based off it.
I would absolutely LOVE to see what you got from that buyout!
YESSS
@@MidwinterMinis me too! The old hammer episodes are some of my favourite.
@@MidwinterMinis I want to see it too
@@MidwinterMinis That would make a very cool episode.
I'm more interested in Penny's opinion on models older than she is.
Theft and copyright infringement are two separate concepts but this video keeps stating that recasts are "theft" - this notion has even been rejected in the courts. please add a correction!
That correction only applies in certain jurisdictions, and for most people, its likely that the companies recasting are breaking the law in the countries they sell in
@@aidanquiett668 then calling it theft also only applies in certain jurisdictions, and I highly doubt that recasting miniatures is a crime in most countries. Replicating copyrighted content is generally a civil infringement at most, and not a crime.
DAN BULL!
Recasting "out of production" models is not illegal, even in the UK. There is a legal doctrine called "violenti non fit injuria" in this case violation of IP law does not cause financial loss- because model is no longer produced.
Its a difficult argument, you'd have to show that there was no possibility of profit at all and GW could say they were going to rerelease it at some point. Ultimately messing with someone's IP can land you in trouble and is risky. You want to be the guy in court making those arguments?
@@WraithRaider the burden of proof would lie on GW that they intended to do something with it.
All it would take in court would be to show that the line of products is no longer in production and hasn't been for X amount of years and the judge would likely wave the case off, if it even got that far which it probably wouldn't.
@@WraithRaider I would. GW would have to prove unequivocally that they were going to re realise every single model and piece from the last 40 years. Not at some vague time in the future maybe. Now, with designs and trademarks and documentation stating every line will be remade and introduced for public purchase. They can't and would not do that based on money alone so you would win. Smartest thing to do would be to make deals with them like Guy said and start buying 3d printers and pay the guys that recraft it all for fun anyway.
Lots of IP lawyers here willing to take on the massive GW legal team. Good luck...
Lots of IP lawyers here willing to take on the massive GW legal team. Good luck...
This was a great video. Regardless of whether recasting is immoral or not, it should be acknowledged that GW pricing people out of the hobby will necessarily lead to more people buying recasts. That's something they should consider every time they do something like re-release terrain sets from 2 years ago for 120% of the original price with 30% of the content missing.
Yep, except that tabletop gamers leaving hurts GW 3 fold. Local games become harder to find so then the community shrinks, the relevance of GW’s lore takes a hit (their most valuable IP, which let’s not forget was their amalgamation of pop culture and small scale community modeling that individuals were doing at their time of founding. The community at the time was what inspired GW and gave them a lot of their aesthetic) and lastly, GW can’t sell rules or paint etc.
I could afford legit GW but we get shafted on price here so fuck GW as a matter of principle, I’m not gonna be involved in any way. 40% above UK prices for no reason. I’ve seen people analyse at our import taxes, shipping costs etc and is worth maybe 5-7%
Why should I spend $88 on a local stock Leman Russ (plus postage) when I can buy THREE WW2 tanks SHIPPED from the UK for LESS, models which assemble better mind. How can a GW tank cost more than 3 TIMES a smaller companies offering INCLUDING INTERNATIONAL SHIPPING AROUND THE PLANET?!? I can buy 45 infantry models for $110 which come with more gear, pose and misc options than most GW stuff. A box of guardsmen costs $56 here. 10 Space Marines can reach $88...
when consumers realise they are being treated badly, the only thing that happens is the company looses. I do agree that people don’t have a right to pirate GW IP. GW doesn’t have a right to price gouge my domestic market for their shareholders pocket and act like they are holier than thou. Folk around here gave them their start and built the community which made GW the position they have today. GW’s thanks for this is fuck you and all you did getting us here, building terrain for your local hobby shop and teaching friends our game, spending your personal time and money on community events; spend half a days pay on one box or get out of the way for rich noobs who will
@@TetsugakuSan you seem to think people care about morality
@@TetsugakuSan stop defending a faceless corporation that does not care about you.
They do not humbly bow to the market. Market will in turn tear them apart like a rottweiler with a stuffed toy.
@@TetsugakuSan who gives a shit lmaooooo
One big caveat "Games Workshop doesn't care what's good for you or what you want" 😂 I miss old 90s GW minis
Right? After all the years of GW shitting all over the fan base, I feel it's karma that the fanbase is using recasting/3d printing to shit all over GW.
@@DJ_Bonebraker they are straight up predatory now.
I think this is the thing isn't it? And to an extent I don't blame them. They took the public stance of "screw gamers, you'll buy what we tell you to" and have made more money now than ever before, so we totally deserve it. Killing Whfb should have devestated GW, it did the opposite cos as fans, we will eat shit and say thank you sir.
So I totally agree with what you're saying, they wouldn't do it as it would be a small gain for them, big gain for their fans but may dilute future sets of people wanna use old models.
Gotta make room for the new super stars I guess.
I miss some of the early 2000s stuff, like the previous generation of Daemonettes. Those things were gorgeous
GW mantra = -quality- control :|
gw statement: warhammer is for everybody*
*not for the poors
Let them eat plastic.
Are any hobbies cheap though? Gaming, playing instruments, nothings free. The start collecting sets are the best value for money, loadsa cool minis for under £50 (from 3rd party sites) Think theyre probably replacing these with combat patrols though?
@@littleweaselboy2865 Sure, we are spoilt these days with good quality free games, when I was younger the only type of games that were free were demos or shareware. But my point still stands, gaming and other hobbies are generally speaking not free.
@@John.anti-carnist I can make an undead skirmish with around 30 miniatures and a few war engines and elites for around $15 US. In fact, I'll do a few episodes on my channel to prove it.
@@DungeonMiser ok cool? Not gonna be GW high standard minis though are they.
Guy: "Reporting on a crime isn't a crime"
Me: *checks UK law*
UK Law: "Not entirely accurate, but I'll let it slide"
Reporting on a crime in progress is absolutely legal.
@@Lutzow706 Depends on the crime and how you report on it.
@@gameswithtoasty3246 Interesting... please elaborate?
@@horseradishpower9947 If you were to report on a crime a judge put a reporting restriction in place, you'd probably go to prison. If you were to report on a something and breached any of the many automatic, and not disclosed, restrictions you could also go to prison. Or be fined.
There are many, many ways people reporting on a crime could land you in crap. Heck, even if you weren't a bona fide reporter, you could be landed with all sorts for breaching this stuff.
Not relevant to the video, naturally, just a little quip about UK law.
@@gameswithtoasty3246 So... what you are saying, then... is that it is illegal to report on a crime in the UK.
Also, bona fide journalist... who determines that? Which goes into the topic of information control.
I will take what you say at face value, and conclude that the UK is a dictatorship, because of all of these laws you have highlighted to control what is said and known.
If a company charges more than the market will bear, then its olny natural that new competitors move in to fill the neich
@@businessathlet3587 actually another a great example is currently Nerf.
@@businessathlet3587 but Lego instructions and bricks are available individually
@@janczaplinski658
Interesting you bring that up, since LEGO prices tend to vary depending on whether or not a set is from a licensed theme or an in-house one. What's to stop someone from sourcing the necessary elements for a low-value licensed set separately and building it for half the cost?
Niche it’s pronounced neesh. It’s French.
This is not market competition, it's theft.
One big problem Guy, GW discovered their legal ground to produce the old miniatures was very poor due to the lack of documentation, this during the case against Chapter House. GW have screwed their artists blind for years with constrictive and unfair contracts and have now discovered most of them no longer want to have anything to do with them. GW actually lost a lot of IP from this case, as no documents of agreement between artists and them could be produced as GW did not store these documents. Thus you can find the old Men at Arms miniatures being sold by their original creators at The Foundry, although they originally appeared in the GW catalogues, with other original artists turning to Kickstarter and other platforms to bring back production of their work. Have you ever wondered why the Perry brothers have little to do with GW now?
I'd assume it was because the Perry Brothers knew they had enough clout to strike out on their own, just like Duncan did. I have to imagine that losing those IP was the reason GW had stopped using contract labor decades ago, bringing model design completely in-house around the time 40k and fantasy started to really crystalize (which is also probably why White Dwarf went from an industry news format to a company-centric one). Also, most of what they "lost" in the Chapter House case was specifically stuff that DIDN'T have models (which made them fair game) or had very generic names (Space Marine vs. Adeptus Astartes).
@Matthew Grosse
"GW have screwed their artists blind for years with constrictive and unfair contracts and have now discovered most of them no longer want to have anything to do with them." huh?
@@giantnerd14 not about "clout". The Perry's have always been huge fans of historical periods and have sculpted ranges that are with Wargames Foundry etc. They were never constricted by much more than time, having been part of GW for so long I am led to believe their contracts were not the same as later ones which prevented sculptors working for anyone outside of GW - which TBH isn't that unusual.
@@canningmatthew I think it's a little about clout. They knew they had enough recognition of their talent to maintain a customer base. You can have the best sculpts out there, but if nobody knows who you are you don't have a great chance at succeeding.
Also, I think what the OP was talking about with the screwing over of artists is that GW (like a lot of companies back then and now) hired their artists as independent contractors instead of employees. It's not a system I am a fan of, but that's how it was.
@@giantnerd14 thats how a lot of businesses operate tbf.
That bit about the 3D gave me an idea: What if GW offered a HeroForge like service for customising HQ options? It could even be possible to include all those old style bits.
that sounds amazing
It's like emulating video games. Tons of video games would never see the light of day if they weren't emulated.
The prerogative of the company is only to make money, if it's not a game that they care about selling anymore, then they don't care. It is illegal and they will shut you down for it no questions asked. Literally does not matter whether they were making money on it or not, doesn't matter if they were ever going to make money on it ever again
@@nobody2021 If I recall, part of the video said to post your opinion. That's my opinion.
@@icngames1032 yea he did say post our opinions in the comments.
@@SWIFTO_SCYTHE Yeah, I was just saying it in a douche way for fun.
Never see the light of day... except for people playing the physical cartridges on the actual game consoles. The idea that emulation is necessary to play old games is completely absurd.
"Daddy I'm hungry! Why didn't you buy food?"
"Quiet you! These classic Games Workshop collectables are my favorite children!"
That child wouldn't be hungry.
They would have been sold for parts long ago
😂😂😜
The price of Blood Knight models 20 years ago is what is pushing me to say "tough GW, tough"
35 aud per model back 8, 9 years ago is insane. When the shopkeepers told the price at first, I thought he was joking.
To be fair in my youth I used to "borrow" them or call it a 5 finger discount
$100 US for five models at least fifteen years ago. Wonder why I never saw official models on the board...
I just wish I could find some blood knight recast, always loved the models but they were so expensive, now even more since they are out of production.
Damn it, it's not theft. It's infringement. Whether you think it's ok or not (intellectual property vs personal property rights) if you're not removing something it's not theft. That's why it's solved through civil law not the police.
There are more nuances but hearing people call it theft is a pet peeve.
I think that other than just ignorance, the other reason people call it "theft" is the perception of entitlement. The company is *entitled* to have that product sold for a profit, so if someone is getting it for free, then that's counted as direct money lost from the company's moral entitlements.
It's the same reasoning behind how the music industry claimed billions in lost revenue from online distribution of songs ~15 years ago or whatever it was. They felt entitled to the sales and thus assumed that everyone who pirated would have otherwise bought their music.
I am not sophisticated enough to understand the point, though I don't doubt you. But to me, it sounds like a distinction without a difference.
@@tonyennis1787 The most important distinction. Theft is a something you get arrested for, infringement is something someone has to sue you over.
@@tonyennis1787
With theft you are taking something from someone, making them lose a thing they invested production costs in and denying them return on that investment.
Infringement/piracy you are just denying them a potential return on their investment.
Very well said Iain. Part of me wants to slap sense into these otherwise good folk and tell them to snap the hell out of it - modern copyright law as we know is literally a legal fiction lobbied for by disney. It doesn't protect artists; it protects monopolies. Its immoral. Its corrupt. And its wrong.
I hope that GW hears this and understands how much money they’ve could’ve made by being in touch with these sorts of things
Or maybe it's completely moral since you have the rules. Then you can play it however you like and have fun: with bottlecaps, similar or alternative models, recasts or 3d-printed model.
@@TetsugakuSan Sorry it may be illegal, but it's not immoral to me immoral is having people spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours building and painting their fantasy army, just to have the company pull the plug on the game and leave us all with those models collecting dust on a shelf or in a box somewhere, immoral is raising your prices in the middle of a pandemic and every new release when people around the world are in lock down.
@@TetsugakuSan not sure if trolling 🤔
@@Sc4recrow44 wow and I thought the ultimate reason for wargaming was to have fun with other people, not being the richest
they already know, GW is the dumbest company ive ever seen that hasnt gone out of business yet, they owe everything they have right now to die hard fans and old board gamers, once we all die of covid, GW is history.
Lead rot is real. Some of the oldest models being officially available in resin would be amazing.
Does lead decay over time?
@@InstabilerStoff My minis from the late 80s haven't.
@@arfived4 Yeah i have a couple of lead containing minis from that era (But i didnt exist back then so i wouldnt know if theres such a problem) and theyre good from what i can tell.
"Lead Rot" is the formation of lead carbonate in the presence of ethanoic (acetic) acid. It can destroy a lead-rich miniature because the carbonate reacts with the air and moisture to make more ethanoic acid, so the cycle is self-sustaining.
Lead carbonate is a yellow-white or grey-white powdery solid, so its formation eats away at the structure of a figure, especially very early hollow-cast lead from the early to mid 20th century.
It's easily prevented by good storage, also by priming them properly, and I have unpainted miniatures from the early 80s that are as good as they day they were cast.
@@khublaklonk4480 Yeah all mine are dry aswell, no prob there.
Also theyre more from the late 80s if i remember the start of rogue trader correctly.
A fellow from Russia, so i know a thing or two about recasts)
We have recasts of both old and newer models, sometimes at absurdly low prices with more than tolerable quality even for painting, especially if you can wield a knife properly). For reference-an official box with a 10-girl squad of sisters of battle that we can buy from our stores will cost us 3500 roubles(50€ give or take), a recaster sells for 1200-1800 roubles, which is 2-3 times cheaper than the official stuff. Recaster also quite often sell separate parts in bundles or even by 1 piece. Wait, do you want a full lascannon devastator squad, or 5 power swords for your vanguard veterans? Do you want specific pauldrons, capes, helmets, 10 plasma guns to put in your squads? You don’t have to buy a whole box for them!
The biggest thing that i furiates me personally is ForgeWorld, and their models. A contemptor drednought without the arms! costs 50€, and each set of weapons will cost you an additional 15€ a piece, For a full model you are forced to pay 80€, which wouldnt be so bad, if it wasnt for two things. DELIVERY COSTS AND QUALITY. Today it is better-you finally HAVE an option for a cheap delivery of 15€. Before, 2-3 years earlier, it used to be just 50€ and up. Its almost as bad as Australia! Also, the quality was...mostly shit. Perhaps ForgeWorld hates us russians, but all the models that arrived were warped and had mouldline the size of a football field. In the end, recasters came in, offering the same contemptor drednought with 2 weapons at virtually the same quality, even better in certain things, for 25€. 3 times cheaper and delivery that didn’t force you to sell a kidney to the shadey looking guy around the corner!
As a cherry on top-we don’t even have the luxury of directly ordering stuff, instead receiving a choice of things that our distributers ordered from GW. Covid didnt pull its punches, and the shelves were BARREN.
For us it is often the very question of affordability that forces us to make the choice in favor of recasts. Both price-wise, and availability-wise.
Also-the recasters are not shady, there arent actually that many of them that have a decent enough model line a good quality, and they are well-known in the community. Some even offer custom models, which can be GORGEOUS. Good luck trying to find Blood Pact minis, GW doesnt care. But the recasters do).
It is always a choice, whether or not to buy recasts, but what is better long-term for the hobby-a large diverse market and fanbase, using both official and non-official models, or a stagnating market where one company makes all the decisions for you and annually increases prices, making the hobby less and less available?
Wait a minute...блять.
Im from Australia, and im thinking of getting into recasting for personal use, since GW prices here are a total rip off now.
The point about 3D printing is real important. I've actually been using retro bits, scanned and remade, for some digital kitbashing for printed minis. You could already pretty much print off an army for less than a percent of the price of buying it from GW. On good resin printers like an Elegoo, you can't even see the grain of the printing lines after you paint it up.
Or you can make an entire army for the price of a few boxes and just have them as cardboard although it’s not as intimidating if you have like 5 carboard baneblade
I printed off 2000 points of Necrons for about 1/5th of the price.. never buying official GW minis again. I think that the fact that there are 1:1 printable copies of most of GW's products out there just shows that the value is in the gaming system, rather than the miniatures themselves. If GW got on the printing bandwagon, they might get a head start on staying relevant
@@commanderstorm8874 if someone took the time to make a fleet of cardboard Baneblades I'd be pretty scared
According to the documentation I have seen so long as you do the modeling/scanning yourself and use at least one official GW bit they literally said they have no problem with it
@@MidwinterMinis i used to make papercraft vehicles, they take A LOT OF TIME to be made, i don't like to assemble plastic vehicles from warhammer 40k, but i do like papercraft, so that's the reason.
It's a great idea, that's why GW won't do it and also because they want total control over their retro minis.
Sauce? GW hardly ever sells them, has never offered the majority of back catalogue even once,, makes tiny runs when they do at a price premium. They either have no interest in offering them OR are trying to keep the old stuff locked away to steer people towards a culture of focusing upon the latest hotness
@@deztag3964 You hit the nail on the head there I think
Print on demand books allow roleplaying books to stay in print for as long as the company has the license. 3D printing could very well do the same thing for miniatures.
Man, I don't miss many of the old sculpts, but I do miss the old mail order process. I remember the old GW white shipping boxes with the troll on the front. Sometimes you would even find stuff in your box you didn't order.
Honestly, GW should just start 3d scanning OOP models, and selling STL files so people can print them at home.
Not really sure why a company that makes its money from selling miniatures, is going to give its customers the ability to mass-produce (and potentially sell) their own models, likely for a small up-front cost.
@@arfived4 If it's for minis that they no longer believe are profitable enough to continue producing themselves, why not?
Worst case, they find that they retired something too soon.
@@ArynCrinn GW's business model is based on it having a monopoly on the figures for their game.
If you can print, or can pay someone to print, a slightly-out-of-date army for a fraction of the cost of a new one, why would you buy the official GW material?
The difference between, say, an 80's Space Marine with a bolter and a modern Space Marine with a bolter, is entirely cosmetic.
@@arfived4 anyone that wants to pirate GW products is already doing so. But as we've seen with music, video games, television shows like GoT and even Dungeons and Dragons, piracy can be great for business. Also, there are plenty of people like me who have monthly subscriptions to things they hardly ever use, like Dndbeyond. I'd definitely jump in to a Warhammer subscription if it meant reducing the barrier to entry from ~$600 to something around $15- $20 a month. Yeah, obviously it's less than what they make on people currently in the hobby, but it's a while lot more than they get from me currently.
@@Baldur825 Piracy only works if the illicit consumer comes back later as a legitimate customer. If you can buy 'fake' GW models for less than the official ones, there's no reason to ever make that switch, and no money in it for GW - they don't make money from you playing the game, just the stuff that you need to play it.
I could see how a subscription service could work on a 'pay per print' basis, but I can't see how it would reduce the barrier of entry for most wannabe players - 3D printers are scarce and expensive, and most people get into Warhammer in their teens.
best thing about old games workshop models is you can see exactly were they stole the IP from in the first place. Heinlein, Geiger, Cameron
The Irony.
I liked that better than a lot of GW's original designs.
*Frank Herbert intensifies*
"Legally distinct terminator-like product"
Michael Moorcock. So much Moorcock.
Does James Workshop need saving? Seems like he’s doing just fine right now, bringing in record profits.
Due to it’s size and market reach, GW serves as the gateway to miniature war gaming for the majority of new comers. Many of these then move onto other game systems as well, supporting the wider industry.
It’s the battle for his soul not his profits. He will make money but people will leave and people will switch to different games and people will 3D print because “fuck James and his workshop”.
I was brought in through black library so there’s a magic there for me that’s untouched by prices, meta, rules, favouritism etc
If you don’t have a love for the company I think a lot of people, instead of playing a xenos army with old models and rules, would be playing a half-orc paladin in DnD.
@@Sc4recrow44 They are still a billion dollar company with a brainwashed following... People didn't think they would last throughout the early 2000's when oldhammer was failing them
@@stevenfitzgerald2214 Games Workshop as a company are 90% of the reason I don't really play any more. I refuse to give them money when for probably the last 20-odd years they've been doing everything in their power to shut out and gate off their game from the average consumer. Constant price hikes, retiring of old models, shutting down anyone trying to make spare parts for models (not even recasts, but new original sculpts of models that GW have never and would never have sold). There's a reason they call it plastic crack - they make the intro boxes nice and affordable to get you into the hobby, then jack up the prices of any half decent units and sell them in ridiculously sized/priced boxes while actively trying to shut down any and all competition. Also also while giving IP rights to any shovelware developer who wants to make a GW branded video game regardless of quality because money.
GW have done everything they can to create and maintain a monopoly and fuck over their customers in every way they can think of in the name of more profit. I have respect for the art they create, but I utterly loathe their business practices and the way they treat their staff and customers.
@@Sc4recrow44 Hopefully! They seem to be on another path of pushing people out again. You would think they could make things more affordable... especially since it's all plastic and no pewter.
Recast/3D print all the OOP models you want, I say.
When the company puts models at such stupidly high prices because they know you have to buy 2 or 3 of those boxes to have a decent army, that's kinda extorting, so a bit of recasting won't kill games workshop and will save you money.
Sounds super nice and reasonable, so not for GW
The problem with GW is that they charge a ridiculous amount of money for their character models. Too much. This is because they know that they are a necessity for an army to function. It's how they get super high profits out of something that costs so little to make compared to a tank or a full unit. A $40 space marine hero costs $6 from a re-caster.
or you could just kitbash your own.
i mean outside design prices storage space, employ wages, making the molds ,community staff wages and transport i'm sure they make a ton of money on the characters
Actually if you understood how production works, you'd realize that characters sell less that units you can buy multiple of for your army. Therefor when GW is manufacturing them, they have to create less units because there is less demand. Manufacturing less units means their price per unit is much higher to make than units people will buy 3-6 boxes of. It costs them much more to make characters and thus costs us more to buy them. Very basic manufacturing and MSRP principles.
@@leegarner4592 That's a good idea. I can just order the desired bits from GW...oh, wait... The assumption of "just use your existing leftover bits" assumes that you have already purchased product and have leftover bits. The assumption that someone has bins with 25 years worth of extra parts is pretty much GW propaganda.
Thing is it cost the same to design and make the tooling for 1 character as it does for a unit, and they will sell less of the characters.
It's amazing how effective Games Workshop has apparently been at keeping recasters off the internet. There are almost no recasters openly advertising.
@mandellorian I run ad-blockers and don't use FB so I can't comment on that. My comment was based on my experiences trying to find recasters on google. The stuff I do find is very wink-wink, as if this were a drug deal.
You just got to know where to look ;) They are still around and will continue to be until GW get's their shit together with FW
You just need to know where to look. My buddy seems to get a new primarch every month from china
I don’t collect Warhammer but have done a cursory search out of curiosity and had trouble finding sources but I think my lack of familiarity with the GW models. Without explicit references to GW or mentioning what the unit is specifically, I can’t tell if it’s a recast or a proxy.
If you start prodding around you figure out how to connect with a few. Takes a lot of effort though.
recast company name: The Old Ones
That is just..... Perfection!
This feel like I’m watching a professionally made documentary on warhammer!
Thank you! I put... probably way too much time into this, haha
@@MidwinterMinis maybe, but the payoff was amazing! 10 out of 9 would watch again
Agreed! The audio, visual takes, and editing are really top notch. A well-rehearsed progressive script, spoken naturally, was a pleasure to my ear :)
Land Speeder Tempest on Forgeworld: *$67*
Land Speeder Tempest on Recast: *$25*
I don't need to explain any further here.
Recast price: Reasonable
Forgeworld price: Borderline extortion
@@medusaminiatures4006 I could pay some desingr on fiverr 200 bucks and I know theyd be the same quality if not better
@@medusaminiatures4006 hell I'd Make a bet give me 10,000 dollar and I'd be able to hire enough designers to make firgures of every character and soldier during the crusade big E and the gods to
2006-2008 and probably even later. 10 Space marines for $35. 2021: 8 space marines for $75.
@@crossmr THIS... it's ridiculous.
I'm just going to say that there's a lot of Brettonia and Tomb Kings players that aren't particularly saddened by GW losing money to recasters.
Also high elves and the rest of the discontinued whfb lines, sadge
Just bought 16 Knights of the realm and 15 Grail Knights 3 weeks ago for 140€. The package should arrive this week 🙌
Let's just remember that they screwed over everybody with age of shitmar. Honestly, I don't feel sad for a faceless Corporation whatsoever and if they want to keep going the route they are going by partnering with Marvel and currently Magic the Gathering after their repeated blunders then honestly I'm going to just ditch the IP in its entirety
And when they split the LoTR boxes in half and then still charged the same price.
@@Arisawa_Heavy_IndPLEASE private message me where to get those, my friend is making a bretonnia army and i am making mousillion (bretonnia) themed vampire counts. Thank you in advance kind sir!
Guy get's a warlord titan
also Guy: i need more >:O.
I bought all this stuff last year... just after I did the "pile of shame" video ;)
@@MidwinterMinis More pile much shame :)
@@MidwinterMinis that makes it worse haha
@@MidwinterMinis That pile is slowly growing into a mountain; someday penny will have to climb it to find you hidden in a cavern near the top finishing off that warlord Titan!
As oldhamerer, I am very happy that someone touched this topic. Thank you for your support. I hope that vour voice will reach Games Workshop...
Too bad GW is deaf.
GW sit idle and deaf on their throne like the false emperor
I used to collect orks and space wolves, and paint commissions in the late 90s I wish I hadin't sold em. Cause now I actually want to play the game. :(
GW: Kids nowadays aren't gonna want a catalogue for our mini-
Me, a kid from nowadays: GIMME BOOK!
GW: But... We've updated our ways of-
Me: G I M M E B O O K ! ! !
B O O K G O O D
Gw upped prices during a time when most are skint, no chance they'd do the fans a deal
@Patrick Swan we are in the middle of an economic recession and Britain’s currency needs to stabilise after leaving the EU. Obviously is going to take a while but it will stabilise eventually
@Patrick Swan You say that, but this is also the company who include VAT taxes, to foreign countries, before currency exchanges.
@Patrick Swan especially if you’re unemployed like me!
@Patrick Swan just stating a fact not saying it is their responsibility. I’m still in Uni so I guess I’m lucky in a way
I’m starting a Vostroyan army. Thanks to GW, recasts or third party is my only choice.
If GW doesn’t want your money then that’s their problem, not yours.
Im just getting into WH, and due to inability to play/ learn in store.. it only makes sense to me to use recasts or 3rd party
Hey there is nothing you cant do with enough patience, creativity and greenstuff.
imagine if they sold 3d printed bits from any model kit
A dream come true
Could finally get a Johann. they go so quickly on bits sites that there is clearly a demand
Green bar of reflection on your glasses had me mesmerised like Hypnotoad!!
ALL HAIL HYPNOTOAD
@@MidwinterMinis HAIL
We totally bought a spin caster and mold rubber and cast Space marines in Austin in the 1990s. We got the bulk of our lead at street corners where tire weights commonly fall off tires. A lot of times we were using cast legs to go with extra plastic kit arms and torsos. In the end we ended up learning how to sculpt and cast our own original figures. So it was less piracy and more of a learning experience. We NEVER sold any of them. More often we melted the down for the metal and cast them into other things as needed. What a hobby!!!!!!
A reminder that GW is currently charging almost the entire price of the Indomitus box for a new box set containing half the sprues of said box, and I'm posting this from America, which already has a spike up from its UK pricetag, more than covering the import price.
Strange way round for things to be. Usually the UK gets ripped off in comparison to US prices. £200 here $200 there. Sounds fair 😄
@@russellspencer3214 probably to do with the import embargoes and manufacturing being done in the UK.
That's a shame you have to experience for once what the rest of the world experiences the whole time from US. 😉
@@theophrastusbombastus1359 To be fair, the US doesn't set import duties for other countries. Countries do that to themselves to "protect" their own businesses (the US does it too).
@@theophrastusbombastus1359
Warhammer is an expensive hobby in general
For me, if it's stuff that they no longer make and adamantly swear they won't cast new ones for you.. then why not. It's GW's own fault for not being savvy enough to realize that people love the old models and want to continue to use them. (especially things like High Elves or Bretonia that no longer exist) Now recasting your own.. I also have no problem with that in certain regards. When it comes to super rare parts that you want multiples of it's really your only choice. My biggest use for it would be in modifying models to fit my idea of what they should look like from my interpretation of the lore or if I write my own story and want to modify the models to make something new. One such case was I wrote a story where orcs were twisted by the power of Chaos and became massive hulks covered with bones sprouting out of their skin, massive sharp teeth, incredible muscles and would be even larger than a troll. To make those I'd have to do a LOT of cutting and stretching and filling in the gaps. Instead of using a regular model, I might want to cast a copy and then start hacking that up and modifying it. Similarly at some point you might get to where you love the shape of your converted model but want to go even further with it but not risk what you've already done, so you might want to cast that and then take your recasts of your converted model (that might only barely resemble the GW model at this point) and then modify them from there too.
Many points well made. I think it is fine for personal army choices and lore interpretation 👍
@@tristanpritchard7253 another idea is where I wanted to make Tzeentch Horrors that fit the lore better.. they are supposed to be ever changing not locked to one common shape and I think you could have some real fun with making them look weird. Though if I had them I'd take it to the insanity level and turn them into things that people fear.. like they take on your deepest fear. You may have some that look like spiders, some that look like blood, some that look like Elmo, some that take shapes beyond human reason.. like Peewee Herman.. I definitely like adding some references and stuff into the game and have fun with it on top of just making scary stuff.. Oh and the Elmo thing.. I used to work with a guy that was scared to death of him, said he had a dream that Elmo killed him.. I actually cured him of it because we worked at Walmart and I worked in toys and it was the re-release of Tickle Me Elmo and I kept walking up behind him with them until he stopped being afraid.. was fun while it lasted though :P
This reminds me of a similar issue regarding lore. I love Warhammer Fantasy lore and greatly appreciate the work of Rick Priestly and others in regards to their work on the old Army Books and Rule Books. Games Workshop no longer sell these books, and so are not making any money over these antiquated works, but at the same time make an active effort to shut down the sharing of PDFs online? It's so strange and sad to see these brilliant works simply lost to the ages...
If they 3D printed the bits and legacy stuff using old sprues and failed casts then it would also reduce the environmental impact of the hobby as well.
Funny thing about recasters is: I get BETTER quality resin casts from them than directly from GW or Forgeworld at 1/3 of the cost, and to top it off, pay much less for shipping (GW charges $17 for orders under $130).
I bought a recast and it was missing a few bits and was thin in some places but I could sculpt something up with greenstuff. But that was one kit out of 5 I bought. I get authentic Forgeworld kits and I spent 2 hours per kit trying to fix each kit. The warping on straight pieces is ridiculous.
@@markhohenbrink5230 My third-party female necrons from some guy's garage in Ukraine are infinitely better quality than the resin crypteks. One of the ones I got had a staff that looked like a chewed-up popsicle stick. The third-party model? So perfect there wasn't even any flash, let alone having to bend shit back into place. Literally, just assemble and paint.
@@aregulargamer1 May you provide a link to this friendly guy from Ukraine. Cause i need this Necron girl. Please
@@neonach3885 wargameexclusive is probably where they got it from.
Going to say that at least part of this(the lower cost) is because it's one guy casting miniatures in his living room who doesn't have to pay huge overhead, entire departments of artists and designers, the casting team, advertising, etc etc etc. No wonder he can sell you a mini for $5 instead of $45.
As for the better quality, most of the FW stuff I've gotten has been fine - yes it takes a bit of work now and then to fill a couple of bubbles or deal with some warped parts. But keep in mind that FW has to cast resin miniatures to fill a worldwide demand. While they may not be able to do a super minute inspection of each and every single part that gets cast, their customer service has always been great. I was recently missing a torso piece from a squad that I ordered, and they refunded me the entire price of the purchase because the kit was out of stock at the time. I honestly can't complain about that.
(It's also really not hard to hit the free shipping threshold, let's be honest)
Be me
>last 5 kits I’ve bought have been screwed up.
>decides to get resin printer.
I've printed a 2k Death Guard army for like 75 bucks of resin. The future is now.
'save'? The company is going through the roof, why do they need 'saving'?
They're gnawing on the rope holding the sword above their necks...
Franchising the recasting or digital modelling of oop minis is a fantastic concept I hadn't thought of - "if you can't beat them, buy them"
Space Crusade is so much fun! The dreadnought's angry face cracks me up every time though.
14:00 I'm drooling over that Space Crusade Dreadnought! Looks like an ED 209
Yeah that's the basic one as well. If you had Operation Dreadnought you got the option to have ones with longer legs and four weapons on them. Was a crazy time, miss those old Chaos Dreadnoughts...
I have bought a lot of Forgeworld recasts. Forgeworld prices are criminal and there models quality is often times worse then recasts.
Bought a lasrifle section from forgeworld about half of the rifles were broken and almost all models had moldslip on the armour panels. If this had happend on a recast model that costs me about 35€ i wouldnt mind but where i live a lasrifle section from forgeworld costs 98€.
recast forgeworld hierophant often have inbuilt wire supports for the super delicate limbs. Otherwise you buy legit and butcher the model to make sure it won't break on you.
@@ScionoftheDreadwing Did you get in touch with their customer service and have them replace it for you? Because that's what you do when you get broken pieces or massive mold slips on expensive resin models. And yes, FW should happily send you replacements because they want to keep you as a customer.
@@MichaelAlthauser I did and I got a replacement but still
@@ScionoftheDreadwing So what's the issue? They fixed the problem for you, sounds like you're all good. I won't argue that FW prices can be high, but I still don't think that "I don't feel like paying the prices that the company that produces the minis for my luxury hobby sets" is an excuse for buying recasts.
I see that full page of bretonnia foot knights and I am filled with such longing and despair
Dude, same. I've still got a slew of unpainted models from the fifth edition boxed set in my basement. Painted three skinks today, will attempt three Bret archers next weekend. I looked up some of the models on ebay and it's true, the prices are nuts.
0:36, I see those indomitus boxes in the back. You can't fool me mid twin-ter minis 😑😁
If 'underground' markets provide a better service than the legit company, that's were people will go. Simple. The price has sky rocketed over the years and GW for some reason are unwilling to take people's money for out of print stuff to be printed so hobbyists will buy them off someone with a 3D printer.
Gabe Newel described how to combat piracy perfectly, he likened piracy with accessibility, the more accesible you make your product the less incentive for an actual customer to go get a pirated product.
Yeah totally agree, this will inevitably happen when cheaper options exist. Stop something that people liked and they'll just do it anyway and we a silly enough to think a crime is being committed 👍
I purchased my first Land Raider for 35 bucks, now it is at 65. Reason? Production prices, shipment and stuff didn't go up by 85,71%. It is just greed. And still the same gaps, flaws, bends in the model...
I mean, a 3d printer good enough to make ok-ish warhammer minis is only like 200-400 bucks. The downside is you have to find warhammer 3d models online or make them yourself
@@mrmora1673 warhammer STL files are incrediby easy to find if you know where to look. Trust me. I have basically the entire line of custodes forgeworld models in STL files on a harddrive.
I miss going into a GW and browsing the bits catalog. Being able to buy specific parts or sprus was amazing for custom builds
I would love to be able to print old and unavailable models. Games workshop could have personal licenses for like so much
resin 3D printing sitting in the corner. "oh yeah recasts probably bad you should keep focused on that"
Those old chaos sculpts are legends
As an original Mail order troll I approve of that box
Save them from what? Being incredibly successful
“The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work. It’s by giving those people a service that’s better than what they’re receiving from the pirates.”
~Gaben
If GW actually gave us afordible stuff, if they actually cared to balance there game and not just make the latest codex OP to sell more stuff, if they actually focused on giving everyone codexes rather than 2 every 6 months, if they stopped attacking content creators like Emperor TTS, if they stopped just being overall greedy goblins then I would start buying from them. Until then I will go out of my way to find a recast or a 3d print of a model.
And just like that, Guy solved the recasting problem, all in time for tea!
It's the English way!
Please please please be the forerunner of a series of Space Crusade painting videos!
You brought nuance to this discussion, and attempted to come up with actual answers to the root causes of the issue without patronizing anyone. I appreciate that.
A few years back I was strongly considering jumping through the hoops to get recasts of Tallarn, because GW just doesn't sell them anymore (despite going on to show them in the most recent Guard codex). I would have payed $40 for a squad of metal Tallarn, I just wanted them for Kill Team, but I felt like I was forced to seek out recasters because I had no other options. At least, I felt like I didn't. In the end I settled for 3rd party bits, sculpting, and Cadians.
GW doesn't want you to be looking back at old models: they want you drooling over NEW models: NEW EXPENSIVE MODELS: Guy: you have 2 boxes of Indomitas in the background of your video. Why? You bought 2, as did I, because you knew they would sell-out, nd if you wanted more you'd have to pay full price; it doesn't matter that I have 3 editions of unpainted W40K + another 3 special boxes, (and even more WFB, AoS, WHQuest, Space Hulk, ..... We buy now, BECAUSE it will go OUT OF PRODUCTION, and sometime, someday, we will all have enough time to paint all the models we've bought. GW likes this approach: as you pointed out, it's massively increased their share-price....and they want to continue to make models (and money), until 3D home printing puts their factories out of business.
Can't argue with the buying extra idea. Back when I was playing 40K (late 80's/early 90's) They came out with the Praetorian box set for the Imp Guard. I grabbed 2 of them at the time planning on building a new guard army (one was E-bayed about 10 years ago, other is still here with maybe 10 figs painted and many extra blister packs tossed in with it). Then 4th ed came out and I walked away about the time they went 5th. Still played Battlefleet and Warmaster till they died also. Lesson learned was NEVER buy into a new GW system because they will bleed you dry and then abandon you. After that went back into Historical minis full time, rules may change but a Tiger I is the same every time.
Nothing annoys me more then laying out for all the support books only to have them rewrite everything just as I get it (Flames of War, and GW), or shifting focus of the game from infantry to tanks because it is cheaper to produce and has a higher profit margin (Again FoW). Matter of fact have no problem with tweaking the rules provided you do not have to buy hundreds of bucks worth the support stuff AGAIN. Or have to rebuy you entire army you spent years collecting and painting because THEY want a paycheck.
Ok, rant over but what I do see in the future is as 3D printing gets cheaper you will see a market for older printed material as people start replaying systems from their childhood. Also big unit count historical games (Napoleonics, ACW, WWI, and the like) will see a comeback as figures become affordable. Next step will be game companies who write a rules set and sell you a PDF copy of it with 3D files for the units over the internet. Maybe put you in some sort of Que to be able to order new stat and print files for additional units as they come out (got to try and stop the piracy somehow). Or even have paid users be allowed to get some sort of print file that goes straight to their printing software they give you. Have it check before printing to make sure you are a valid customer. I am sure things are about to change soon and the whole market will be upended. Greedy Companies may not be able to bully their way out of this one for a change.
I would definitely buy more kroot knarlocs legitimately if FW still sold them.
OOP models deserve to live on.
"Reporting on a crime isn't a crime" - Assange is dying in prison for doing just that without even going to trial.
He reported on the crimes of the "people" that control us, much different
I would love to be able to order specific parts from Forge world.
Last year I picked up a pretty big Word Bearers army and discovered that some of the vehicles where assembled pretty badly and specifically the Las cannons for the Spartan Assault tank really needs replacing. I don't have time or the skills to rebuild them so I'm left to scratching my head from time to time when ever I pick it up and try to get something done.
I would really like to have the ability to order replacement parts, it would make my hobby so much more enjoyable.
I buy my Death Korps models from a recaster because I dont want to pay 60€ for a 55point unit that will die in the first round. And because the quality if the recasts I buy is as good as if not even better than forgeworld.
at the moment building official forgeworld models: yeah the quality isn't perfect, I've seen recast online which are better quality of the Death Korps I'm building now....
and where is this site found? so I can make sure to avoid it at all costs because I disapprove of the idea of recasting
I’ve bought recasts over the years and the actual resin used isn’t gaming quality, for me anyway. It’s far too brittle so yeh, detail wise you might be getting a great deal but don’t expect spines/banners/weapons to stay intact
@@fartpantsmcgee8493 like you, i am also disgusted by the idea of such a vile site. I would also like to know where it is so i never by anything from those darn bastards
@@linus5489 Well not sure if its the site op is talking about but black market minis is fantastic, shipping takes yonks tho.
GW took my Kasrkin models away, so I took my money away and gave it to a recaster for them instead.
I'm a Patreon for a designer that often designs near perfect replicas of well OOP GW models and often missing parts. He said sometimes GW has issue with it, sometimes not. It's interesting to see which sets off their trigger.
I can think of a legion of Brettonians I'd love to have without needing to pay a tout's annual take. I'm also a bit pissed that the Blackstone Fortress expansions went out of production so quickly, although with that bit I'd need a re-printer as well as a recaster. Cursed City it is then...
Ok at 8:37 one of the items is a barrel. I came across two of these barrels and used them for my Kit bashed Ork Kommandos as back packs. They look very nice on them with all bunch of other stuff strapped to the barrels like grenades, choppas, and other junk that a Kommando would need like his Space marine trophies. Never realized that it was an old part. I just came across it at a GW. The manager was a great guy who would take any spare bits from people and then give them to people who asked for those spare bits. He eventually left GW and opened his own store, which meant every customer he built a good relationship with stopped going to GW store and to his store instead. Don’t go to that GW anymore because of a bad management and the fact that there’s a chance you’ll have your models stolen. It’s in a somewhat seedy area. One guy had like 70 ork boys stolen when he wasn’t looking. These weren’t normal boys. They were all painted and kit bashed to look like they were all wearing wife beater shirts and had beer bottles as choppas.
Sorry for the rambling just got on the thought and continued to type.
This might be your best video yet. Interesting, entertaining, controversial, educational and really well presented and edited. Much respect to you sir.
I have recasts, 3D printed, official and "alternative" (proxy) models. I buy recasts when the GW business model is obviously predatory (limited editions, bundled with tons of crap you don't need, steeply overpriced) and have no issues with whatever people choose to do. I could buy only the cheapest option every time, but I buy genuine products when I don't feel like the company is scamming me just because IP laws give them a monopoly.
I have been using press molds with green stuff to make bits for quite a while now. I would definitely recommend it. I will never run out of out-of-production bits.
As an ageing hobbyist, i have been in and out of GW products for close on 30 years. The hobby has changed enormously over time and the quality of the kits has improved beyond imagination. However, the costs are also almost beyond imagination as well. The days of being able to pop into the store and buy 2 blisterpacksn to get hold of 4 or 5 new miniatures are gone. That made the hobby fun and affordable.
I moved to Australia about 5 years ago and costs here are double or more than in the UK. I rarely buy anything new as 30dollars for a single grunt figure is way out of control. While i understand the issues with recasts, GW have made a bed they now have to lie and accept the recasters will not go away. They have begun to price themselves out of the market. I think Guy makes a great argument for the corporation of GW to engage with recasters/3D printer etc and listen to their to the people who keep them going.
I have not purchased anything direct from GW for about 4 years as the 'local hobby store' has GW stuff at 20% below RRP. .....
Work that one out.
Same here. I'm in the uk and ,before the lockdowns, me and my son used to go to GW and game with others on a sunday afternoon..but did i buy stuff there? Not a chance when the shop 10 mins walk away has all the items for 20% off. Makes zero sense..
"The best thing about hero quest is the gargoyle!"
Man I miss the bard
Hopefully the best thing about the new HeroQuest will still be the gargoyle!
@@Gorbz the Femir. Love it.
. . . the prior owner of my hero quest seemed to have lost the gargoyles' head '.'
One thing that is lost a bit by the wayside next to seeing the recast topic only with the focus on GW is: The mentality of "recasting being ok, because it's only Games Workshop" and "Gw StUfF iS tOo ExPeNsiVe!!11" that a lot of people have, kills us small miniature producers. There has been incidents where one single recaster sold 20 times the numbers of a figure the original designer/sculptor was able to sell.
Recasters take (steal) a product that took hundreds of workhours and/or a lot of money to produce, bypass all of these costs and sell you a crappy copy for 1/10 of the price. And then some people even say "just adapt to it, bro."
"Games Workshop would like to know your location"