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As a player of titans and knights, I want to say that the coolest system for such big guys is the chorus heresy, 40k has long turned into a boring and simple game without any special mechanics, since everything is tailored for fans of sports Warhammer, the fan game that used to make us happy, but the Horus heresy has become much more pleasant and with a bunch of mechanics that ideally make you feel each unit, what is the feeling of a titanium on the table worth, in the heresy these are the gods of war who cover large parts of the battlefield with guns in patterns and hold many attacks and some guns they don't even break through them
Now I love the idea of the Titan being crushed by a bunch of Stompas and Gargants, only for a singular Grot to fire off a bullet that does a Death Star Run and somehow hits the reactor and blows it up.
@MidwinterMinis OK but since I read this now I imagine a short animation of a Genestealer Cultist managing to crawl their way up the leg of the Titan and plant a single stick of dynamite on a really broken piece of armour. The genestaler cultist is shot but not before they light up the dynamite which causes the chain reaction.
These kind of David and Goliath scenarios are always really fun but the game has to make them unlikely enough for them to feel exciting. If your big thing dies to small arms fire every game the drama will quickly fade...
and the fact it has the same strength as every other plasma cannon if I remember right, like, I get certain weapon types would normally be in certain strength brackets but that cannon's about as big as the main gun on most tanks, if not bigger.
"Sunfury Pattern Plasma Annihilator A weapon of terrifying and indiscriminate power, the Sunfury Pattern Plasma Annihilator is capable of incinerating entire cityscapes and rendering the strongest armour into steaming vapour." -Games Workshop
@@Lomhow the warlord titan nearly costs two armies in points. Army and a half would only be 3000. I honestly believe I could win against a warlord titan and a 500 point knight with 2000 points by VP.
@@elricdotah you need only 2 gallant, 1 castellan and 2-3 crusader/paladin/errant to rip warlord on half. Ironically, that ~3000 pts and can be playable vs other armies in 40k 10th edition.
I'm old-school about titans in 40k. A designer (Gav Thorpe maybe?) once said "if you want a warlord titan in 40k, wrap yourself in tinfoil, point at the map, and say everything on it is dead". ... but that said, I see your problem and sympathise.
If I had 2000 points of Orks I would totally let my friend wheel this toddler-sized piece of glorified wax out for a good scrap. Like that just sounds fun, like a scene from Helsreach come to life. We'd have 30 photos of damn near every turn.
Someone on the Tyranids subreddit had a ripper swarm, the little tough 2 swarm, kill a warlord titan. He modeled the rippers with little crowns for their achievement.
He better have a match between the greates of unclean ones, the Barbie of sex and doom, the gargant, and the titan fighting on a room sized board of all kinds of terrain
I have a Warhound. I occasionally take it to my local games shop for a bit of fun. By fun, I mean giving my opponent the chance to feel great about their army being able to say they killed a Titan. Even against mostly infantry... it still dies every time. Every time. Still fun.
If you ever feel like *actually using* a Warhound, they perfectly fit into a Horus Heresy army's Lord of War slot, costing just 750 points, exactly enough to fill the 25% maximum in a 3000pt game. And their rules make them worth using in the slot, too.
Yeah, there are only a few hundred people who bought the model. But those people dropped _thousands of dollars_ on them. They deserve to have usable rules, regardless of whether most 40K players think it's "worth it" to design for it.
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Just because something is expensive does not mean it NEEDS to be insanely powerful. That being said, I do think that it needs to have like 300 wounds and a special rule against devs like the custodes. Or straight up drop the points like the video says. Primarchs die a lot faster than you think they should in lore all the time in game.
@@Motorcitynights It doesn't need to be insanely powerful, it just needs to be decent enough to not lose every single time to just being focused down without having a single chance in hell at fighting back.
i own 3 titans, (two warhounds, 1 reavfer, with a massive group of titanguard secutarii) one of the worst things to happen recently is to be told that my army and the titans are a fake forgeworld dream and it doesn't have a place on the 40k tabletop by a GW store manager where i am. i'm glad to see more attention going to these models. i'm frustrated with the rules, and i'm frustrated with how the community seems to treat and handle the bigger models in the tabletop, and this extends beyond the titans themselves. even the spaceships/flyers and the imperial knights seem to get this same ball of treatment. at the moment i'm refusing to collect with any intention of playing, and my own engagement with the hobby has dropped drastically as a result of this perceived hostility towards showcase rule of cool models. i hope for something better one day.
This biggest issue I've noticed just reading the dataslate for the titans is the lack of an actual area of effect. The plasma destroyer is meant to be able to annihilate an entire company of infantry in a single hit, but the way 40k works you shoot one 5 man squad with it and the second squad standing 2 feet away are totally unaffected. Something like the old school blast templates would help this big guy out a lot actually. Imagine slapping down a dinner plate sized template on the board and you hit everything inside of it. Suddenly your opponent doesn't have much of an army left to shoot you with next turn. (please not this is just an observation, I'm not putting this forward as an actual solution)
Yeah I think Titans arguably need some kind of rule that allows that to spilt up attacks. Maybe not something like the Volcano canon which is meant to kill big units but something like the Sunfury Plasma or the Quake Canon should be able to do so something like target one unit and then allocate attacks to other units a certain distance(6 inchs?) from them. The Apoc Launchers should perhaps be able to allocate 10 attacks to two different units and the Las Blasters perhaps to three different units.
The 2nd ed Cyclone missile launchers could choose to fire all 12 krak missiles at once and use a 12” blast template. Couple of those in the first round really softened up the opponent 😂
For what it's worth, Titans have totally viable rules in Horus Heresy. Granted, apart from lacking xenos, it's a better rule set in basically every other way too so this shouldn't be surprising.
i think thats kinda indicative of the differing design philosophies between the games really. modern 40k is designed around smaller games or a skirmish based level of play. you can have large armies but its not exactly conducive to play em. Meanwhile horus heresy is designed around large armies going to town on each other, so it makes sense a titan fits in more easily in the game where its expected to fight larger blobs of dudes.
If anything the warlord is incredibly well costed in HH. Maybe even *too good* because the sheer number of hull points and the difficulty of hurting it even with other titans.
GW don’t really care about rules though. The put them there just as an extra thing to support the one thing they REALLY want, and thats selling models. The Warlord Titan is a weird thing though. Too expensive for 99.9% of players, and the rules make it pretty unattractive for the .01% who WOULD buy it just to field it on the tabletop. I seriously think the bulk of people buying this are just doing it to get a huge centerpiece and a large project to keep them busy for a few months/years whilst they build and paint it - and thats the reason I’m building mine now. The rest are people 3D printing them just to give GW the middle finger.
_WFB_ worked out the utility of 1+ saves ("No AP, no chance") two decades ago. Give the Warlord a 1+ armour save, heck, even a 0+ if you want to ensure that only anti-tank weapons will do more than chip the paint.
@@MidwinterMinis If I saw a warlord titan coming out at me I would legit just bring as many naked 20 stack guardsmen as possible. Tanks with actually damaging weapons would probably be blown off the table first with no real damage done, so infantry all the way. Pretty sure with all those fancy attacks the Titan couldnt chew through 330 infantry with reinforcements before I land enough lasgun hits to eat it. It would really make more sense to have that sorta rule, because the idea of lasguns bringing down a Titan in any other capacity than climbing up the legs and shooting the crew after boarding is offensive.
@@tomsonlarrson3318 330 infantry get 330, maybe 660 shots. You need about 3600 HITS to kill the titan. So over 5 turns, you can't kill it given you wound on 6+ and have max AP-1 (because the titan can easily get cover, right?), so he saves on 2+.
@@elricdotah just bring more then. for the 3000 points the titan costs you can bring: 120 cadian shock troops 120 catachans 120 death korps 120 infantry squads That's 480 infantry and you still have 120 points for command units, like ursula and a cadian command squad. In total that's up to 960 shots + another 60 from the 3 FRFSRF, for a max of 1020 shots.
My fixes: - No weapon under S8 can harm a Warlord Titan. The Titan can ignore any damage that would result from any weapon which strength is below 8. - The Warlord Titan counts as always passing any Leadership that may result from any source. - Titanic Weaponry (main weapons) ignore all saves, including invulnerable and cause a -1 to any Feel No Pain to a maximum of a 6+. - A Warlord Titan's feet causes 2D6 automatic Mortal Wounds to any unit it is in base-to-base contact with within each Fight Phase. - A Warlord Titan's melee weapons have the [Titanic 2+] [Monstrous Creature 2+] rules for wounding and also inflict +1 mortal wound for every successful point of damage inflicted by a normal attack. If against [Infantry] then it inflicts D6 additional mortal wounds for each successful point of damage inflicted by a normal attack. I'll have some more, but this is what rolled off the string of consciousness first.
If we reduce the warlord from 3500 to 2000 (a factor of 1.75), then we should do the same for the other titans. A Warhoubd would come down to 629, a reaver would be 1257, and a warbringer would be 1486 The problem with this is that at 629, the warhound would be cheaper than the Acastus knights (710 and 765)
So for simplicity I would propose the following: Warhound - 800 Reaver - 1200 Warbringer- 1500 Warlord - 2000 This works out nicely because it means you can field an army with nothing but 1 warhound and 1 reaver for 2000
Funnily, the Warlord titans also underperformed badly in Space Marines(epic 2nd edition), with a poorly armored plasma reactor. It went down from 900 to 500 or 750 in Adeptus Titanicus(750 for a single one, and 1500 for a battlegroup of 3, which is a deeper discount than what you usually can see on GW shops), which made it eventually playable (and even overpowered in groups of 3).
In 9th I printed a Warlord for a friend and we did a 3v1 against him, didn't expect him to be shot to death on turn 3. We then did a 1v1 with 2k of knights against the Warlord and it died on turn 4 in melee. Like cmon that's ridiculous.
Hey now, Cerastus Knights are literally known as Titan Killers because a lance of them could (and did!) frequently bring down Titans in melee! Don't rag on the God Machine Jr's!
@@DarkRaven4649 had two questoris, a Dominus, and a few Armigers. Should've been more even but it was a big slaughter, only lost a few armigers and some damage to a questoris.
I think that the titan's rules should include the eight void-shields. Imagine each blowing up and sending shockwaves across the board. Like you're actually fighting a monster, a colossus.
False, everyone who wants titans prints titans. Easily accessable and appropriately priced. The problems are space, rules and finding opponents for big games.
A Warboss + Painboy 20 Choppa Boyz Blob dishes out 76 AP -1 Choppa attacks hitting on 2s during the WAAAGH, supported by a 5++ and a 5+ FNP. It should be pretty easy to get everything into engagement range, even without Green Tide Stratagems. That + an Ard Case Battlewagon costs a total of 475 points, leaving 1525 open for other stuff. Even at 2000 points, the Titan seems much more scary than it actually is. You "just" have to occupy it in melee combat with a horde of minis long enough to outscore it.
@@MidwinterMinis It's a bit silly that 48(!!) shots of zoggin' 8/-2/2 rokkits hitting on 3s isn't sufficient to reliably take out a bunch of sentient mushroom hooligans trying to refashion your millenia old sacred war machine into a fancy convertible with guns. So yeah, I totally get you. This thing should OBLITERATE stuff.
There should be a rule for attacks with strength under like 6 to not being able to damage the titan at all, really. Its just ridiculous to imagine a titan dying from some Orkboys hitting his toes with an axe.
I wholeheartedly agree with the points made here. I’ve played several Apoc games with my Warlord w/ turbo lasers, plasma, and volcano cannon, and since going to 10th it’s felt a lot worse. It doesn’t help that’s it’s 10th Edition datasheet is vastly worse than it’s 9th Edition datasheet. Almost every gun is effectively worse even if it’s stats didn’t change because of the new strength and toughness scale of 10th, the Titan has less base wounds and has less movement, and the void shields were just busted in 9th. I know nobody could fucking agree on how they worked even after FW confirmed it’s 24 extra wounds you can only lose three of at a time, that healed in increments of 3, that also gave you a 5+ Invulnerable save while they lasted. Everyone who points at “OMG STRENGTH 32 WDYM THIS IS BAD??!!!??!?!” is someone who’s never played with or against Titans. And I don’t blame them because they’re very rare models to come across, so let me give you two examples. The Volcano cannon was S20 last edition, which already wounded everything on 2s, so 32 is nothing new. It has less shots but more damage which unfortunately maths out to be exactly the same damage if everything goes through, so it’s only change is that it’s now more swingy because it’s relying more on each individual attack. The plasma is especially a joke. It’s AP went down so it now has less AP than the new Primaris Macro-plasma Incinerators on the Repulsor Executioners and Redemptor Dreadnoughts. Like you’re telling me this tiny plasma gun has more AP than this genuinely real-life-arm sized resin brick of a gun? And in an edition where everything’s toughness went up, the plasma’s strength went down. The standard charge is S10 and the Supercharge is only S12. Even supercharging the largest plasma weapon in the game won’t wound a Custodes Terminator, or Space Marine Centurion exosuit on a 2+. Supercharge wounds a Baneblade on a 5+ and Imperial Knights on a 4+. Standard doesn’t even wound a standard Custodes guardian on a 2+. It’s a fucking joke now and I’m mad. It’s makes it more maddening that everyone who has no experience in the matter chimes in and is like “oh there’s no way it’s that bad it’s a WARLORD TITAN,” and then they pint at some ridiculously high number on its profile like it’s 100 wounds. I don’t think some of y’all realize how quickly 100 wounds disappears in 40K. A full 2k army has more than 100 wounds on the table. The Warlord is almost double that point cost and has less wounds than an army half his point cost. This thing genuinely evaporates in one turn to concentrated AT weapons from things like Tyrannofexes, Shadowswords, Imperial Knights in general, Hammerheads, all units you can take in ABUNDANCE in a 2k army. Like yeah no it’s fucking awful for its point cost and general hobby time sink. Like you have to get a shelf with it specifically in mind, they take forever to assemble and paint, and they’re a pain in the ass to transport anywhere. Guy if you read this whole ass comment 1. Thanks for your time love your videos 2. Use the 9th Edition rules you already made for your gargant and for the Warlord instead. It’ll be a lot more fun because you can just fill in the points difference with your Orks that the gargant can transport anyways
To be honest, I think all rules writers at GW is just terrified of being the person who allowed Warlord Titans to be a legitimate 2000 point army list for tournaments. The pay to win backlash would be as colossal as the titans are if one ranked remotely well at an official tournament. All that being said.. Yes. I would love the Warlord Titan to be more playable, and also fieldable with other things too! And I feel 2000 points should be the goal... that being said... The desire for "Silly huge games only" models will always be in the hearts of wargamers. And maybe the role you want the Warlord to fill is already filled by the likes of Reaver and Warhound titans.
"The pay to win backlash would be as colossal as the titans are if one ranked remotely well at an official tournament. " I highly doubt it. With a 40% win rate, nobody would bat an eye. And it's just one model, so there is a very very slim chance of winning in the first place, even if at some point you table your opponent before you table them. On WTC terrain, you can't move at all, so you're stuck on your home objective. Let's suppose you're getting something like take no prisoners or assassinate each turn, to score 4-5 points on them. That's maybe 50 points tops. Which army in a tournament loses to 50 points if you have several turns of free reign in nomans land?
It’s a universal truth in RPGs and wargames is: “If it has stats, it can be killed.” This is also why I was dead agains the primarchs being made as playable models. It’s just wrong that such a unique and badass character gets spayed by a grot.
as someone from outside Warhammer, I genuinely assumed this thing was 2000 points as the "baseline for that many battle point" measuring stick, SERIOUSLY, Like "what could my army 2000 point army face? One of those." How many teenagers do you need to fight one bear, ya know? 😅
12:34 Time to tell you the way I would not only fix the Warlord Titan but also make Warhammer 40K a cooler game in general. All it takes is 3 words: ONE PAGE RULES.
@stephenwitham OPR is simpler and easy to learn. Not to mention its FREE and can accommodate way more armies than what 40k rules are limited to. It is way more accessible for everyone, the only bad thing about it is the stubborn people who refuse to consider it because its just not 40k
hey guy, I finished up my lethal company interns on simon's day! just wanted to letcha know that I did get that hobbying in, even if it was all slapchop (it does look appropriate for orange space suit guys tho)
Whilst I mostly agree with what you are saying, I am a little bit concerned that simply lowering the points cost of the Warlord Titan might cause some issues since that would mean you also have to lower the points costs of the other titans, at which point they might interact weirdly with other big high points units.
@@MaxWild-g3h so they got removed when we have the 8th ed re-fresh because they wanted to "simplify" the game It might be worth checking out the WLT Horus heresy rules?
@@MaxWild-g3h Whilst they were thematic, they did lead to a lot of unfun play patterns. People spacing out they're units in ways that made the table look strange and it was always tricky to be really precise about whether a model is just outside or just inside
Couple of thoughts I had during the video: Void shields; add a rule saying that it can regenerate wounds, the value of which diminishes at certain wound brackets (10 wounds a turn when regenerating 80-100, 8 wounds a turn 60-80 etc). Make those lascannons twin-linked. Allow you to distribute attacks from it's weapons between units that are 6-9 inches apart. A few strategic additions of devastating wounds/ lethal hits to some of it's weapons. Finally, add it so that you can use the Command reroll strategem at normal points cost.
A lot of the problems with the Titan in 10th is mostly caused by 8th to 10th treating these units like "big infantry" rather than having armour values like they do in HH and prior editions. With armour values and the void shields in the prior editions, these things are a lot nastier and very hard to take down without specific units. It's why I've stayed with the older editions myself (plus gaming club pals, obviously).
I used a Legions Imperialis warlord against my friends as a proxy, against a 1400 point army, and lost. It was fun still! I painted it in Legio Astraman colors
Okay I wasn't not thinking the thing you said at the beginning when I saw the thumbnail. So you got me haha! Seriously you make a good point. Very interesting.
Honestly, titans need a unique special rule on their weapons. This allows them to do blasts effectively in 40k. For example, "When firing this weapon, you may spread your successful hit rolls across the target unit and any enemy units within x inches of the target unit."
Awesome video. If the new edition rules don't worry and use house rules just like the Team Deathmatch series. Completely forgot how awesome the titan looks.
Guy, a great video. I hope you are still enjoying your hobby. I pray that you are still finding time to play games. I wish the best for you, I can tell you are a good person. Please never loose your passion. It's why I joined your patreon. Keep it up.
Thanks buddy! I appreciate it. A bit worn out the last couple of weeks as the kids' childminder is off on holiday so I've only been working 2 or 3 days each week, and running around after the little'uns the rest of the time! Haha
I think a more comprehensive fix involves adressing the core issue that 40k is a game designed around the idea of bringing many different units that work in unison, meanwhile the ritan is just one single model. The solution might be to effectively make every part of the model its own unit as far as most rules are concerned. They have their own abilities, points costs, wounds, etc. making it so the other player can strategically target different points on the mini, maybe even flank it to get LOS on its reactor. This way games get a lot more dynamic and interesting as the one commanding the titan is issuing strategems and activating abilities on all the different parts while the enemy is trying to set up daring flanking manouvres.
BETTER IDEA, set basic Warlord titan at 2000 points... AND... Release updates rules for more powerful weapons, armour and rules to make a higher point cost warlord titan actually worth its reputation!!!
I like your solution of the points drop, and I would add a "lore friendly" explanation that the reason that the rules currently stink for it is that the Mechanicus doesn't know how (or are too dogmatic) to put the weapons and shields on the "optimized" settings. Thus, it SHOULD be doing much better, but it just isn't as the crew just doesn't know how to operate the thing correctly. Works for me.
Titan weapons and tactics are presumably designed for proper large-scale open battles (like in the epic-scale games they come from), it actually makes sense to me that they would perform badly against skirmish forces. Like a modern MBT ambushed by infantry in a street fight, the princeps has already fucked up by allowing his machine to be engaged in such a fashion.
Biggest issue with it is GWs long lasting vendetta against FW models, feels like they haven't had been given the time/resources for making well written rules for them in 10 years at least
I had a couple of thoughts about the rules. It's pretty clear that the classic rules, especially strength vs toughness, fall apart when confronted by the behemoth that is the Titan. IMO, it should get specific rules against small arms fire, be able to essentially ignore engagement as a rule with most units, and yes get various instances of dev wounds or lethal hits.
In the days of Epic people used to get annoyed with me fielding mine as it was armed with a landing pad and 3 MRL's. I used to hide it behind scenery then use the flyer as a spotter and launch barrages around the table without taking it out of cover.
lol I know this is really not related but I learned the term "war dolly" from you and it's my absolute favorite. At least in the US, folks find it really disarming and are immediately more opened up what the hobby is.
You should look at the Heresy rules for the titan, it's 3,000 points which is the standard size for Heresy, it has void shields and armor values (meaning that low strength weapons can't damage it at all), and the weapons have fun rules like "apocalyptic barrage."
At first when you suggested that a warlord be 2k I thought you were out of your mind. But then upon further reflection of your arguments I found them all well reasoned and convincing. I think 2k is fair for this behemoth and it would be epic if a points drop meant I fight one of these bad boys at some point in the future. That seems sick.
@@florianpal9633 I was thinking more the nuanced approach with the table. I mean, was it really so difficult for people that it slowed games down so much it needed removing?
If the warlord was 2k, how do you balance the other titans (especially the warhound) that they aren't too good? Maybe try playing the warlord in Horus heresy, it has the appropriate amount of fun bonkers rules and only costs 3000 points (the standard game size)
Sounds like GW were so concerned about making the Warlord Titan so OP that they nerfered it into the ground. With toughness, I can't remember if WH40k 2nd edition use to have this rule (that's the last 40k rule set I played with), but 1990's Necromunda had a toughness table you had to look up. If a model was very tough, or the weapon very weak, it could NEVER damage the target. So a weapon with a strength of 2, could never inflict a would on a target with a toughness of 6 or higher. Highly unlikely that scenario would play out in one-off fight but the rule was there just in case. It does mean another table to look up or memorize, but would stop stupid events, such as a bolt pistol inflicting damage on a Warlord Titan!
The viewers could act as the grot/human mechanic force and based on donations or poles they could add bonuses and affects to each titan model. Both of these giant models need a bunch of little guys to keep them running and this could represent that in game. Especially since it could be a weighted vote type thing, where the guys in charge (The players) are giving out orders to the rest of the ship and then the middle management guys "distribute" the work force to accomplish those goals. I'd say that would be fairly thematic
11:18 I don't play WH40K at all, so this might be completely stupid... but to me, that sentence reads as though it means: "a player must spend 4 times as many CP when using a strategem on/against their *opponent's* titan ... or anything that titan did".
I think the most fun house rules was actually be something which spilts up the titan ala Epic style rules. Just slowing knocking down 100 wounds isnt perhaps the most fun for an opponent? Give a separate profile to each weapon so an opponent can look to destroy(or degrade) something which they see as a greater threat. A lot more room for tactical choices and it also means the Titan as a whole could be far tougher, you don't need to destroy it to render it ineffective. Maybe bring back the void shields rule as well and make them regenerative? so you need to punch though some of them each turn, do your damage to a certain weapon and then do it again next turn.
Hey Guy, I'm a guy with maybe a bit more experience with Titans as in my area we have a lot of Titans and I have a Warhound and Warlord myself. The good news is that at least you weren't playing the Warlord in 9e or god forbid 10e. It's also intentionally done, almost all the large resin titan models are kept weak for competitive reasons, as well as to ensure that no "bad feelings" emerge during games. This mostly started with the release of Knights into 40k (although it's been a while, iirc they weren't even called Knights back then, but rather Titans) But with their release into the game with models and rules, many in the community were spiteful and hated them, as they felt GW was now gatekeeping powerful models with powerful rules so you would be forced to buy a $100 model just to remain competitive. A lot of negative sentiment would form around this, and especially the Titans, so they nerfed them quite heavily; with Knights from then on being formally recognized as, well, Knights! But Titanic and not Titans themselves, and with their codex release they and other now non-Titan, but Titanic, models being useable in game. Titans themselves were basically (on the Points system) borderline useless. The 8th edition Warlord Titan was about 40% stronger than the current one, and much more durable, however instead of costing 3,500 points, it costed 10,000 points. Now again, don't get me wrong, it's an awesome, beautiful, powerful model! But 10,000 points of Leman Russ tanks will absolutely be able to kill not just 1, but 2 Warlord titans, and if we roll really well and more importantly the Warlord doesn't, up to 3 Warlord Titans in 8th edition (if you fought them back to back, rather than all at once) I believe in 8th the Warhound was 3,500 points and in 9th it was 2,000 points so it WAS your army. When you look at the Elder Titans, they're fantastic Titans... for killing other Titans. Their weapons are extremely powerful at dealing a ton of damage to other high hp, heavily armoured targets, however, the miment you face regular models: it's just overkill and you're now limited by number of attacks (sauce: I brought my Death Korps of Krieg infantry only army and beat an Eldar Phantom Titan to death with shovels while he killed something like 65 kriegsmen in 9th edition) The only Titans that are actually decent, i.e. could potentially be used in competitive or just casually competitive armies are the Heirophant and Harridan (from Tau), and maybe the Warhound. Are there better models? Absolutely! A Castellan + Knight Errant will absolutely trounce a Warhound, and not only that, they're efficient at killing smaller targets, whereas the Warhound has 2 guns and hopes that's enough. The bonus 12 hp doesn't warrant the 200% points markup. But! If you're facing other titans, the Warhound SHINES, because Titans are ultimately meant to fight other Titans. Slap on your dual Plasma Disintegrators and run off to the front lines little dude! With a Warhound "only" costing 1100 points, in a large Titan format game that's usually only 20% or fewer of your total points cost, and is basically a Titan sized Distraction carnifex. So ultimately guy, Titans are weak, and likely will always be weak for the health and balance of the game. If you want a fun match, you are ultimately forced to fight other Titans
It's fun to do the probability calculations for dice rolls. it only gets more complex if you start doing conditional probability. But the to hit probabilities are not that complex.
For Warlord Titan to be usable in "realistic" (lore accurate) way it would need HUGE overhaul of rules. My idea goes something like this: 1; Titan should be imprevious to anything weaker than armourbuster artillery / other titans. 2; Titan should be rare occurance on battlefield; to field single one of them player should have to field non-titanic army worth multiple times as much as titan itself.
It’s kinda like when I get asked why you paint models, cause it’s fun and once I buy that kit you could go the box art or you can take the paint job or the base in any direction
I will say it's worth noting how much better the rules are for Horus heresy, it's playable at 3,000 points which is a more normal points value for heresy and it's weapons feel far more impactful.
I think it's funny we both had the same idea for how to right size Titans. They just don't have the heat to face off against 3k+ armies. But against a 2k army it is like a raid boss fight. When it comes to rebalancing them to have more punch I think they should still cost less than 3k even with added punch, all their attacks should have an effect radius just on the nature of their size. But a new keyword should be given predominantly to fliers and some bigger artillery "Anti-Titan." I just love the idea of a Titan being surrounded by Dakkajets and the like while boyz are getting crushed under its feet.
Warlord titans are amazing in Apocalypse! Use the Apocalypse 3rd Edtion ruleset from 2019, not 40k 10th edtion as thats really a skirmish game. Its still found online, all datasheets are free from GW. There is even community updates for all new GW kits released since Apocalypse came out.
So glad that Heresy does the Titans much more justice. Their special rules and template weapons help a lot. Aaand a Walord Titan is as good, if not better in meele than primarchs.
I solved the problem by having it on the sidelines, and flavouring it as battlefield condition esque rules. For example at the start of each turn it would shoot randomly across the board and deal some major damage to everyone
I think that this was deliberate. They always make units they don't want you to play with have atrocious points to constrain them to casual play. See also aircraft, fortifications, and most legends stuff. Any game involving something as skewed as a Warlord should start with the sentence "Do you want to come over to my place and fight my Warlord Titan?" And in those sorts of games points don't matter anyway.
You do get to take it to titan walk events, they use the adeptus titanacus rules. The problem is basically anything but tank weapons would not scratch it and that would make it unfun in 40k. Heck even Legions Imperialis they don't play like they should.
Really interesting! I played a 1000 point game with chaos knights last night and had very much the same issue. Turn one my cerastus lancer dominated and did great, but the Volkite combustor on my abominant did nothing, it doesn't even have - 1AP! His turn one killed the lancer and on turn two he killed the abominant. That was my entire army! We agreed that if I had been able to bring a third knight it would probably have been a fair fight, but that the points values at the moment meant they just did nothing. Making each knight 333 points each would mean they could be usable and viable compared to a normal army, in the same way the warlord titan needs to be. I just don't think GW knows how to balance big things
The game, with knights especially, is balanced for 2K. At 1K lists will skew really hard, and knights are the pinnacle of skew. That said, get you some war dogs and also the abominant is really bad until we get a codex :/
Titanic thanks to Incogni for supporting this video. Use code midwinterminis at incogni.com/midwinterminis to get an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan.
Im always down for a midwinter 40k video
Titanic 😂
Your ad was one of the best I've seen in a while. Genius use of cosplay and roleplay to make an ad fun enough to not just skip past!
Should do a poll to see how many viewers will ever own this.
As a player of titans and knights, I want to say that the coolest system for such big guys is the chorus heresy, 40k has long turned into a boring and simple game without any special mechanics, since everything is tailored for fans of sports Warhammer, the fan game that used to make us happy, but the Horus heresy has become much more pleasant and with a bunch of mechanics that ideally make you feel each unit, what is the feeling of a titanium on the table worth, in the heresy these are the gods of war who cover large parts of the battlefield with guns in patterns and hold many attacks and some guns they don't even break through them
Now I love the idea of the Titan being crushed by a bunch of Stompas and Gargants, only for a singular Grot to fire off a bullet that does a Death Star Run and somehow hits the reactor and blows it up.
In one of my games the Titan was felled by a handful of Genestealers, so it's not out of the realms of possibility!
@@MidwinterMinisI hope you were yelling "get away from her you bitch!", while that was going on 😂
@MidwinterMinis OK but since I read this now I imagine a short animation of a Genestealer Cultist managing to crawl their way up the leg of the Titan and plant a single stick of dynamite on a really broken piece of armour.
The genestaler cultist is shot but not before they light up the dynamite which causes the chain reaction.
"Luke, use da WAAAGH!"
These kind of David and Goliath scenarios are always really fun but the game has to make them unlikely enough for them to feel exciting. If your big thing dies to small arms fire every game the drama will quickly fade...
The fact that the plasma cannon the size of a train doesn’t have devastating wounds is kinda hilarious, tbh.
and the fact it has the same strength as every other plasma cannon if I remember right, like, I get certain weapon types would normally be in certain strength brackets but that cannon's about as big as the main gun on most tanks, if not bigger.
"Sunfury Pattern Plasma Annihilator
A weapon of terrifying and indiscriminate power, the Sunfury Pattern Plasma Annihilator is capable of incinerating entire cityscapes and rendering the strongest armour into steaming vapour." -Games Workshop
Should get Devastating Wounds, Lethal Hits, Ignores Cover, Blast, Fireable into Melee. Thing costs an army and a half in points.
@@Lomhow the warlord titan nearly costs two armies in points. Army and a half would only be 3000.
I honestly believe I could win against a warlord titan and a 500 point knight with 2000 points by VP.
@@elricdotah you need only 2 gallant, 1 castellan and 2-3 crusader/paladin/errant to rip warlord on half. Ironically, that ~3000 pts and can be playable vs other armies in 40k 10th edition.
I'm old-school about titans in 40k. A designer (Gav Thorpe maybe?) once said "if you want a warlord titan in 40k, wrap yourself in tinfoil, point at the map, and say everything on it is dead".
... but that said, I see your problem and sympathise.
i think that would be a imperator with how big the average person is compared to the miniatures lmao
If I had 2000 points of Orks I would totally let my friend wheel this toddler-sized piece of glorified wax out for a good scrap. Like that just sounds fun, like a scene from Helsreach come to life. We'd have 30 photos of damn near every turn.
I've just realised I now actually have the models for a Helsreach battle report
@@MidwinterMinisDo it! Do it! Do it!
@@MidwinterMinisDew eet!
Battle of the trash tiers: 4 stompas against 1 warlord
The Guyver t-shirt is the real prize 🏆
Someone on the Tyranids subreddit had a ripper swarm, the little tough 2 swarm, kill a warlord titan. He modeled the rippers with little crowns for their achievement.
I like the thought of a random guardsman firing his rifle upwards in glee at the sight of a warlord titan, just to somehow one shot it by accident lol
For once the tech-priest making every part have a mirror Finnish is a downside
As a Tyranid player, this sucks. There's only like 6 dudes in there anyways. Not worth the fight at all.
Like fighting a lion to just get a chicken wing
@@MidwinterMinis😂
@@MidwinterMinisnothing will keep me away from my chicken wings damnit
And those 6 dudes are really only like 1/10th of an actual dude since they're mostly augmented 😂
More like 3 guys, 2 cyborgs and 1 large foetus
He better have a match between the greates of unclean ones, the Barbie of sex and doom, the gargant, and the titan fighting on a room sized board of all kinds of terrain
Barbie of sex and doom, haha
This would be awesome!
I have a Warhound.
I occasionally take it to my local games shop for a bit of fun.
By fun, I mean giving my opponent the chance to feel great about their army being able to say they killed a Titan.
Even against mostly infantry... it still dies every time. Every time.
Still fun.
If you ever feel like *actually using* a Warhound, they perfectly fit into a Horus Heresy army's Lord of War slot, costing just 750 points, exactly enough to fill the 25% maximum in a 3000pt game. And their rules make them worth using in the slot, too.
@@vortex594 That's great to hear!
Yeah, there are only a few hundred people who bought the model. But those people dropped _thousands of dollars_ on them. They deserve to have usable rules, regardless of whether most 40K players think it's "worth it" to design for it.
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Just because something is expensive does not mean it NEEDS to be insanely powerful.
That being said, I do think that it needs to have like 300 wounds and a special rule against devs like the custodes. Or straight up drop the points like the video says.
Primarchs die a lot faster than you think they should in lore all the time in game.
@@Motorcitynightsit’s a warlord titan though, it definitely is supposed to be powerful
@@Motorcitynightsbut he didnt say insanely powerful, he said usable.
Just homebrew some better rules. Sorted.
@@Motorcitynights It doesn't need to be insanely powerful, it just needs to be decent enough to not lose every single time to just being focused down without having a single chance in hell at fighting back.
i own 3 titans, (two warhounds, 1 reavfer, with a massive group of titanguard secutarii) one of the worst things to happen recently is to be told that my army and the titans are a fake forgeworld dream and it doesn't have a place on the 40k tabletop by a GW store manager where i am. i'm glad to see more attention going to these models. i'm frustrated with the rules, and i'm frustrated with how the community seems to treat and handle the bigger models in the tabletop, and this extends beyond the titans themselves. even the spaceships/flyers and the imperial knights seem to get this same ball of treatment.
at the moment i'm refusing to collect with any intention of playing, and my own engagement with the hobby has dropped drastically as a result of this perceived hostility towards showcase rule of cool models. i hope for something better one day.
This biggest issue I've noticed just reading the dataslate for the titans is the lack of an actual area of effect. The plasma destroyer is meant to be able to annihilate an entire company of infantry in a single hit, but the way 40k works you shoot one 5 man squad with it and the second squad standing 2 feet away are totally unaffected. Something like the old school blast templates would help this big guy out a lot actually. Imagine slapping down a dinner plate sized template on the board and you hit everything inside of it. Suddenly your opponent doesn't have much of an army left to shoot you with next turn. (please not this is just an observation, I'm not putting this forward as an actual solution)
They could keyword it like they did with the Plasma Warhead (it rolls for every unit at a radius from the target)
It used to have a rule where the plasma wave from the impact would wash over nearby units and deal damage.
Yeah I think Titans arguably need some kind of rule that allows that to spilt up attacks. Maybe not something like the Volcano canon which is meant to kill big units but something like the Sunfury Plasma or the Quake Canon should be able to do so something like target one unit and then allocate attacks to other units a certain distance(6 inchs?) from them. The Apoc Launchers should perhaps be able to allocate 10 attacks to two different units and the Las Blasters perhaps to three different units.
#bringbackblasttemplates
The 2nd ed Cyclone missile launchers could choose to fire all 12 krak missiles at once and use a 12” blast template. Couple of those in the first round really softened up the opponent 😂
For what it's worth, Titans have totally viable rules in Horus Heresy.
Granted, apart from lacking xenos, it's a better rule set in basically every other way too so this shouldn't be surprising.
Yep, I’m really sad they fumbled 40K so hard in 10th, HH is basically strictly better now imo except in terms of simplicity but eh
i think thats kinda indicative of the differing design philosophies between the games really. modern 40k is designed around smaller games or a skirmish based level of play. you can have large armies but its not exactly conducive to play em. Meanwhile horus heresy is designed around large armies going to town on each other, so it makes sense a titan fits in more easily in the game where its expected to fight larger blobs of dudes.
If anything the warlord is incredibly well costed in HH. Maybe even *too good* because the sheer number of hull points and the difficulty of hurting it even with other titans.
It's so expensive that GW will only give it good rules if more people buy warlord titan
But maybe more people might buy it if they could use it? Catch 22, haha
GW don’t really care about rules though. The put them there just as an extra thing to support the one thing they REALLY want, and thats selling models. The Warlord Titan is a weird thing though. Too expensive for 99.9% of players, and the rules make it pretty unattractive for the .01% who WOULD buy it just to field it on the tabletop. I seriously think the bulk of people buying this are just doing it to get a huge centerpiece and a large project to keep them busy for a few months/years whilst they build and paint it - and thats the reason I’m building mine now. The rest are people 3D printing them just to give GW the middle finger.
@@foulplay99Yeah. It’s a flex and I love flexing.
_WFB_ worked out the utility of 1+ saves ("No AP, no chance") two decades ago. Give the Warlord a 1+ armour save, heck, even a 0+ if you want to ensure that only anti-tank weapons will do more than chip the paint.
That's legit a great idea
@@MidwinterMinis If I saw a warlord titan coming out at me I would legit just bring as many naked 20 stack guardsmen as possible. Tanks with actually damaging weapons would probably be blown off the table first with no real damage done, so infantry all the way. Pretty sure with all those fancy attacks the Titan couldnt chew through 330 infantry with reinforcements before I land enough lasgun hits to eat it. It would really make more sense to have that sorta rule, because the idea of lasguns bringing down a Titan in any other capacity than climbing up the legs and shooting the crew after boarding is offensive.
@@tomsonlarrson3318 330 infantry get 330, maybe 660 shots. You need about 3600 HITS to kill the titan. So over 5 turns, you can't kill it given you wound on 6+ and have max AP-1 (because the titan can easily get cover, right?), so he saves on 2+.
This seems like a really good solution for such a unique unit
@@elricdotah just bring more then.
for the 3000 points the titan costs you can bring:
120 cadian shock troops
120 catachans
120 death korps
120 infantry squads
That's 480 infantry and you still have 120 points for command units, like ursula and a cadian command squad.
In total that's up to 960 shots + another 60 from the 3 FRFSRF, for a max of 1020 shots.
My fixes:
- No weapon under S8 can harm a Warlord Titan. The Titan can ignore any damage that would result from any weapon which strength is below 8.
- The Warlord Titan counts as always passing any Leadership that may result from any source.
- Titanic Weaponry (main weapons) ignore all saves, including invulnerable and cause a -1 to any Feel No Pain to a maximum of a 6+.
- A Warlord Titan's feet causes 2D6 automatic Mortal Wounds to any unit it is in base-to-base contact with within each Fight Phase.
- A Warlord Titan's melee weapons have the [Titanic 2+] [Monstrous Creature 2+] rules for wounding and also inflict +1 mortal wound for every successful point of damage inflicted by a normal attack. If against [Infantry] then it inflicts D6 additional mortal wounds for each successful point of damage inflicted by a normal attack.
I'll have some more, but this is what rolled off the string of consciousness first.
If we reduce the warlord from 3500 to 2000 (a factor of 1.75), then we should do the same for the other titans. A Warhoubd would come down to 629, a reaver would be 1257, and a warbringer would be 1486
The problem with this is that at 629, the warhound would be cheaper than the Acastus knights (710 and 765)
Having faced an Acastus Knight with the Titan, I would say that actually that's fair. That thing is death on legs.
So for simplicity I would propose the following:
Warhound - 800
Reaver - 1200
Warbringer- 1500
Warlord - 2000
This works out nicely because it means you can field an army with nothing but 1 warhound and 1 reaver for 2000
@@101Phase sounds about right, a Warhound costed 750 just at couple of editions ago
Holy shit, I didn't expect you to be in this comment section. Big fan of Courier's Mind.
@@katw5592 thanks 😊
Funnily, the Warlord titans also underperformed badly in Space Marines(epic 2nd edition), with a poorly armored plasma reactor. It went down from 900 to 500 or 750 in Adeptus Titanicus(750 for a single one, and 1500 for a battlegroup of 3, which is a deeper discount than what you usually can see on GW shops), which made it eventually playable (and even overpowered in groups of 3).
In 9th I printed a Warlord for a friend and we did a 3v1 against him, didn't expect him to be shot to death on turn 3. We then did a 1v1 with 2k of knights against the Warlord and it died on turn 4 in melee. Like cmon that's ridiculous.
Hey now, Cerastus Knights are literally known as Titan Killers because a lance of them could (and did!) frequently bring down Titans in melee! Don't rag on the God Machine Jr's!
@@DarkRaven4649 had two questoris, a Dominus, and a few Armigers. Should've been more even but it was a big slaughter, only lost a few armigers and some damage to a questoris.
I think that the titan's rules should include the eight void-shields. Imagine each blowing up and sending shockwaves across the board. Like you're actually fighting a monster, a colossus.
14:20 Guy i love you dude but i don't think it's the point cost that hinders seeing more titans around, it's more the... uhhh... actual money cost
False, everyone who wants titans prints titans. Easily accessable and appropriately priced.
The problems are space, rules and finding opponents for big games.
Boo ho- oh you beat me to it. Well thanks for the video then!
GOTCHA!
A Warboss + Painboy 20 Choppa Boyz Blob dishes out 76 AP -1 Choppa attacks hitting on 2s during the WAAAGH, supported by a 5++ and a 5+ FNP. It should be pretty easy to get everything into engagement range, even without Green Tide Stratagems.
That + an Ard Case Battlewagon costs a total of 475 points, leaving 1525 open for other stuff. Even at 2000 points, the Titan seems much more scary than it actually is. You "just" have to occupy it in melee combat with a horde of minis long enough to outscore it.
Exactly! In one of my tests, 2 salvos of BOTH Apocalypse Missile launchers failed to take out a mob of 20 green tide Boyz with a Painboy.
@@MidwinterMinis It's a bit silly that 48(!!) shots of zoggin' 8/-2/2 rokkits hitting on 3s isn't sufficient to reliably take out a bunch of sentient mushroom hooligans trying to refashion your millenia old sacred war machine into a fancy convertible with guns. So yeah, I totally get you.
This thing should OBLITERATE stuff.
There should be a rule for attacks with strength under like 6 to not being able to damage the titan at all, really. Its just ridiculous to imagine a titan dying from some Orkboys hitting his toes with an axe.
@@Squig96well it's not really hitting it's toes so much as literally boarding it and breaking vital stuff.
Boys are ridiculous this Edition tho.
There is little, either Infantry or Vehicle that survives a Squad passing them.
I wholeheartedly agree with the points made here. I’ve played several Apoc games with my Warlord w/ turbo lasers, plasma, and volcano cannon, and since going to 10th it’s felt a lot worse. It doesn’t help that’s it’s 10th Edition datasheet is vastly worse than it’s 9th Edition datasheet. Almost every gun is effectively worse even if it’s stats didn’t change because of the new strength and toughness scale of 10th, the Titan has less base wounds and has less movement, and the void shields were just busted in 9th. I know nobody could fucking agree on how they worked even after FW confirmed it’s 24 extra wounds you can only lose three of at a time, that healed in increments of 3, that also gave you a 5+ Invulnerable save while they lasted.
Everyone who points at “OMG STRENGTH 32 WDYM THIS IS BAD??!!!??!?!” is someone who’s never played with or against Titans. And I don’t blame them because they’re very rare models to come across, so let me give you two examples. The Volcano cannon was S20 last edition, which already wounded everything on 2s, so 32 is nothing new. It has less shots but more damage which unfortunately maths out to be exactly the same damage if everything goes through, so it’s only change is that it’s now more swingy because it’s relying more on each individual attack. The plasma is especially a joke. It’s AP went down so it now has less AP than the new Primaris Macro-plasma Incinerators on the Repulsor Executioners and Redemptor Dreadnoughts. Like you’re telling me this tiny plasma gun has more AP than this genuinely real-life-arm sized resin brick of a gun? And in an edition where everything’s toughness went up, the plasma’s strength went down. The standard charge is S10 and the Supercharge is only S12. Even supercharging the largest plasma weapon in the game won’t wound a Custodes Terminator, or Space Marine Centurion exosuit on a 2+. Supercharge wounds a Baneblade on a 5+ and Imperial Knights on a 4+.
Standard doesn’t even wound a standard Custodes guardian on a 2+. It’s a fucking joke now and I’m mad.
It’s makes it more maddening that everyone who has no experience in the matter chimes in and is like “oh there’s no way it’s that bad it’s a WARLORD TITAN,” and then they pint at some ridiculously high number on its profile like it’s 100 wounds. I don’t think some of y’all realize how quickly 100 wounds disappears in 40K. A full 2k army has more than 100 wounds on the table. The Warlord is almost double that point cost and has less wounds than an army half his point cost. This thing genuinely evaporates in one turn to concentrated AT weapons from things like Tyrannofexes, Shadowswords, Imperial Knights in general, Hammerheads, all units you can take in ABUNDANCE in a 2k army. Like yeah no it’s fucking awful for its point cost and general hobby time sink. Like you have to get a shelf with it specifically in mind, they take forever to assemble and paint, and they’re a pain in the ass to transport anywhere.
Guy if you read this whole ass comment 1. Thanks for your time love your videos 2. Use the 9th Edition rules you already made for your gargant and for the Warlord instead. It’ll be a lot more fun because you can just fill in the points difference with your Orks that the gargant can transport anyways
Today I learned: 40k now uses Toughness for vehicles. Oooh boy.
Yeah, thing dies to laser pistols. This is so dumb...
To be honest, I think all rules writers at GW is just terrified of being the person who allowed Warlord Titans to be a legitimate 2000 point army list for tournaments. The pay to win backlash would be as colossal as the titans are if one ranked remotely well at an official tournament.
All that being said.. Yes. I would love the Warlord Titan to be more playable, and also fieldable with other things too! And I feel 2000 points should be the goal... that being said...
The desire for "Silly huge games only" models will always be in the hearts of wargamers.
And maybe the role you want the Warlord to fill is already filled by the likes of Reaver and Warhound titans.
That said it isint even legal for a 2k game as you still need a unit to be your warlord
"The pay to win backlash would be as colossal as the titans are if one ranked remotely well at an official tournament. "
I highly doubt it. With a 40% win rate, nobody would bat an eye. And it's just one model, so there is a very very slim chance of winning in the first place, even if at some point you table your opponent before you table them.
On WTC terrain, you can't move at all, so you're stuck on your home objective. Let's suppose you're getting something like take no prisoners or assassinate each turn, to score 4-5 points on them. That's maybe 50 points tops. Which army in a tournament loses to 50 points if you have several turns of free reign in nomans land?
Played a game with one where it was two teams against each other and the warlord against both and the warlord was killed turn one
It's like 20 distraction Carnifexes standing on each other's shoulders
Yeah we really thought it would be stronger we also had 2 warhound titans to go with it
The painting on the headlight is so good that for a minute I thought you had an LED in there.
It’s a universal truth in RPGs and wargames is: “If it has stats, it can be killed.”
This is also why I was dead agains the primarchs being made as playable models. It’s just wrong that such a unique and badass character gets spayed by a grot.
0:48 That Atlas model, to the left of the tabletop display, is froggin' amazing; I was going to say "awesome", but that could be confusing.
Now imagine if it was a Warhammer instead of an Atlas.
as someone from outside Warhammer, I genuinely assumed this thing was 2000 points as the "baseline for that many battle point" measuring stick,
SERIOUSLY,
Like "what could my army 2000 point army face? One of those." How many teenagers do you need to fight one bear, ya know? 😅
Nessa caught 13/16 treats, so her invul save is roughly 2++
12:34 Time to tell you the way I would not only fix the Warlord Titan but also make Warhammer 40K a cooler game in general. All it takes is 3 words: ONE PAGE RULES.
OPR is garbage though, that would only make the game far worse. OPR is just a cult.
@stephenwitham OPR is simpler and easy to learn. Not to mention its FREE and can accommodate way more armies than what 40k rules are limited to. It is way more accessible for everyone, the only bad thing about it is the stubborn people who refuse to consider it because its just not 40k
hey guy, I finished up my lethal company interns on simon's day! just wanted to letcha know that I did get that hobbying in, even if it was all slapchop (it does look appropriate for orange space suit guys tho)
Nice one mate!
Whilst I mostly agree with what you are saying, I am a little bit concerned that simply lowering the points cost of the Warlord Titan might cause some issues since that would mean you also have to lower the points costs of the other titans, at which point they might interact weirdly with other big high points units.
yeah... acastus knights are arund 7-750 points, where the warhound used to be in 9e I beleive, so you'd have to be very careful...
I think the warlord titan would be fantastic if we had templates in 10th
Dishing out pie plates like it's Christmas dinner
Why were they removed in the first place, I think they make vehicles and weapons visualise way better
@@MaxWild-g3h so they got removed when we have the 8th ed re-fresh because they wanted to "simplify" the game
It might be worth checking out the WLT Horus heresy rules?
@@MaxWild-g3h Whilst they were thematic, they did lead to a lot of unfun play patterns. People spacing out they're units in ways that made the table look strange and it was always tricky to be really precise about whether a model is just outside or just inside
Couple of thoughts I had during the video:
Void shields; add a rule saying that it can regenerate wounds, the value of which diminishes at certain wound brackets (10 wounds a turn when regenerating 80-100, 8 wounds a turn 60-80 etc).
Make those lascannons twin-linked.
Allow you to distribute attacks from it's weapons between units that are 6-9 inches apart.
A few strategic additions of devastating wounds/ lethal hits to some of it's weapons.
Finally, add it so that you can use the Command reroll strategem at normal points cost.
Not only entertaining but as well interesting. Nice vid.
A lot of the problems with the Titan in 10th is mostly caused by 8th to 10th treating these units like "big infantry" rather than having armour values like they do in HH and prior editions. With armour values and the void shields in the prior editions, these things are a lot nastier and very hard to take down without specific units. It's why I've stayed with the older editions myself (plus gaming club pals, obviously).
I used a Legions Imperialis warlord against my friends as a proxy, against a 1400 point army, and lost. It was fun still! I painted it in Legio Astraman colors
The Megagargant disassembling itself over the time almost feels way too accurate to be done unintentionally.
Okay I wasn't not thinking the thing you said at the beginning when I saw the thumbnail. So you got me haha!
Seriously you make a good point. Very interesting.
I honestly thought his 3 words were going to be "Just play Heresy" - at AV15 it looks like a BEAST in Heresy.
I'm loving this new spicy side of Guy lately!!
First ad read in a long while I didn't skip, simply because it was done so well. Love the outfit!
I love the amount of effort that goes into even your ads
Honestly, titans need a unique special rule on their weapons. This allows them to do blasts effectively in 40k. For example, "When firing this weapon, you may spread your successful hit rolls across the target unit and any enemy units within x inches of the target unit."
Awesome video. If the new edition rules don't worry and use house rules just like the Team Deathmatch series. Completely forgot how awesome the titan looks.
Guy, a great video. I hope you are still enjoying your hobby. I pray that you are still finding time to play games. I wish the best for you, I can tell you are a good person. Please never loose your passion. It's why I joined your patreon. Keep it up.
Thanks buddy! I appreciate it. A bit worn out the last couple of weeks as the kids' childminder is off on holiday so I've only been working 2 or 3 days each week, and running around after the little'uns the rest of the time! Haha
@@MidwinterMinis are you still playing games?
I think a more comprehensive fix involves adressing the core issue that 40k is a game designed around the idea of bringing many different units that work in unison, meanwhile the ritan is just one single model.
The solution might be to effectively make every part of the model its own unit as far as most rules are concerned. They have their own abilities, points costs, wounds, etc. making it so the other player can strategically target different points on the mini, maybe even flank it to get LOS on its reactor.
This way games get a lot more dynamic and interesting as the one commanding the titan is issuing strategems and activating abilities on all the different parts while the enemy is trying to set up daring flanking manouvres.
BETTER IDEA, set basic Warlord titan at 2000 points... AND... Release updates rules for more powerful weapons, armour and rules to make a higher point cost warlord titan actually worth its reputation!!!
That was the best pronounceation of Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz that I've ever hear from non-polish guy xD
I like your solution of the points drop, and I would add a "lore friendly" explanation that the reason that the rules currently stink for it is that the Mechanicus doesn't know how (or are too dogmatic) to put the weapons and shields on the "optimized" settings. Thus, it SHOULD be doing much better, but it just isn't as the crew just doesn't know how to operate the thing correctly. Works for me.
Titan weapons and tactics are presumably designed for proper large-scale open battles (like in the epic-scale games they come from), it actually makes sense to me that they would perform badly against skirmish forces. Like a modern MBT ambushed by infantry in a street fight, the princeps has already fucked up by allowing his machine to be engaged in such a fashion.
Biggest issue with it is GWs long lasting vendetta against FW models, feels like they haven't had been given the time/resources for making well written rules for them in 10 years at least
That was one of the best ads I've seen in a while my dude
I had a couple of thoughts about the rules. It's pretty clear that the classic rules, especially strength vs toughness, fall apart when confronted by the behemoth that is the Titan. IMO, it should get specific rules against small arms fire, be able to essentially ignore engagement as a rule with most units, and yes get various instances of dev wounds or lethal hits.
In the days of Epic people used to get annoyed with me fielding mine as it was armed with a landing pad and 3 MRL's. I used to hide it behind scenery then use the flyer as a spotter and launch barrages around the table without taking it out of cover.
you should bring the Warlord to a Titan Owners Club walk! that would make the most EPIC battle report - EVER!!
lol I know this is really not related but I learned the term "war dolly" from you and it's my absolute favorite. At least in the US, folks find it really disarming and are immediately more opened up what the hobby is.
You should look at the Heresy rules for the titan, it's 3,000 points which is the standard size for Heresy, it has void shields and armor values (meaning that low strength weapons can't damage it at all), and the weapons have fun rules like "apocalyptic barrage."
At first when you suggested that a warlord be 2k I thought you were out of your mind. But then upon further reflection of your arguments I found them all well reasoned and convincing. I think 2k is fair for this behemoth and it would be epic if a points drop meant I fight one of these bad boys at some point in the future. That seems sick.
Honestly I don’t really like 10th edition as they made the death guard even weaker and there my favourite army
Seems like there's lots of dissatisfied Death Guard players out there!
@@MidwinterMinis yea GW basically made them chaos space marines that look like death guard by removing disgustingly resilient
the thing that gripes me the most is that they made DG into a aggressive army who de-buffs instead of a defensive one who grind down their foes
@@Yurt_enthusiast7 exactly there’s an offensive chaos space marine so defensive ones are needed
The boohoo "saved you from typing that out" was fantastic 😂
That ad read was *Chef's kiss
Love the guyver shirt!
Guardsman being able to do damage to it would be a sight to see!
Really liked this video!
The loss of the S vs T chart has been one of the biggest faults of 10th.
But.. the S vs T charts are there? 10th didnt remove anything in that regard
@@florianpal9633 I was thinking more the nuanced approach with the table.
I mean, was it really so difficult for people that it slowed games down so much it needed removing?
If the warlord was 2k, how do you balance the other titans (especially the warhound) that they aren't too good? Maybe try playing the warlord in Horus heresy, it has the appropriate amount of fun bonkers rules and only costs 3000 points (the standard game size)
Sounds like GW were so concerned about making the Warlord Titan so OP that they nerfered it into the ground.
With toughness, I can't remember if WH40k 2nd edition use to have this rule (that's the last 40k rule set I played with), but 1990's Necromunda had a toughness table you had to look up. If a model was very tough, or the weapon very weak, it could NEVER damage the target.
So a weapon with a strength of 2, could never inflict a would on a target with a toughness of 6 or higher. Highly unlikely that scenario would play out in one-off fight but the rule was there just in case.
It does mean another table to look up or memorize, but would stop stupid events, such as a bolt pistol inflicting damage on a Warlord Titan!
And adult conversation? On the internet?! No way!
The viewers could act as the grot/human mechanic force and based on donations or poles they could add bonuses and affects to each titan model. Both of these giant models need a bunch of little guys to keep them running and this could represent that in game. Especially since it could be a weighted vote type thing, where the guys in charge (The players) are giving out orders to the rest of the ship and then the middle management guys "distribute" the work force to accomplish those goals. I'd say that would be fairly thematic
Man that intro cracked me up something fierce!
not goona lie that add was fire
11:18 I don't play WH40K at all, so this might be completely stupid... but to me, that sentence reads as though it means:
"a player must spend 4 times as many CP when using a strategem on/against their *opponent's* titan ... or anything that titan did".
You need to make that boarder for your infomercial
Make a miniature frame/boarder
Photoshop the center out
That’s your layer!
Imagine getting shot at by a cannon the size of a fuckin train car and you just say "naw"
You're sorta lucky you even *get* a 10th edition stat block. Xenos always suffering.
I think the most fun house rules was actually be something which spilts up the titan ala Epic style rules. Just slowing knocking down 100 wounds isnt perhaps the most fun for an opponent?
Give a separate profile to each weapon so an opponent can look to destroy(or degrade) something which they see as a greater threat. A lot more room for tactical choices and it also means the Titan as a whole could be far tougher, you don't need to destroy it to render it ineffective.
Maybe bring back the void shields rule as well and make them regenerative? so you need to punch though some of them each turn, do your damage to a certain weapon and then do it again next turn.
I really enjoy your videos, great pacing to start my day. Thanks MW team!
Hey Guy, I'm a guy with maybe a bit more experience with Titans as in my area we have a lot of Titans and I have a Warhound and Warlord myself.
The good news is that at least you weren't playing the Warlord in 9e or god forbid 10e.
It's also intentionally done, almost all the large resin titan models are kept weak for competitive reasons, as well as to ensure that no "bad feelings" emerge during games.
This mostly started with the release of Knights into 40k (although it's been a while, iirc they weren't even called Knights back then, but rather Titans)
But with their release into the game with models and rules, many in the community were spiteful and hated them, as they felt GW was now gatekeeping powerful models with powerful rules so you would be forced to buy a $100 model just to remain competitive. A lot of negative sentiment would form around this, and especially the Titans, so they nerfed them quite heavily; with Knights from then on being formally recognized as, well, Knights! But Titanic and not Titans themselves, and with their codex release they and other now non-Titan, but Titanic, models being useable in game.
Titans themselves were basically (on the Points system) borderline useless. The 8th edition Warlord Titan was about 40% stronger than the current one, and much more durable, however instead of costing 3,500 points, it costed 10,000 points.
Now again, don't get me wrong, it's an awesome, beautiful, powerful model! But 10,000 points of Leman Russ tanks will absolutely be able to kill not just 1, but 2 Warlord titans, and if we roll really well and more importantly the Warlord doesn't, up to 3 Warlord Titans in 8th edition (if you fought them back to back, rather than all at once)
I believe in 8th the Warhound was 3,500 points and in 9th it was 2,000 points so it WAS your army.
When you look at the Elder Titans, they're fantastic Titans... for killing other Titans. Their weapons are extremely powerful at dealing a ton of damage to other high hp, heavily armoured targets, however, the miment you face regular models: it's just overkill and you're now limited by number of attacks (sauce: I brought my Death Korps of Krieg infantry only army and beat an Eldar Phantom Titan to death with shovels while he killed something like 65 kriegsmen in 9th edition)
The only Titans that are actually decent, i.e. could potentially be used in competitive or just casually competitive armies are the Heirophant and Harridan (from Tau), and maybe the Warhound.
Are there better models? Absolutely! A Castellan + Knight Errant will absolutely trounce a Warhound, and not only that, they're efficient at killing smaller targets, whereas the Warhound has 2 guns and hopes that's enough. The bonus 12 hp doesn't warrant the 200% points markup.
But! If you're facing other titans, the Warhound SHINES, because Titans are ultimately meant to fight other Titans. Slap on your dual Plasma Disintegrators and run off to the front lines little dude! With a Warhound "only" costing 1100 points, in a large Titan format game that's usually only 20% or fewer of your total points cost, and is basically a Titan sized Distraction carnifex.
So ultimately guy, Titans are weak, and likely will always be weak for the health and balance of the game.
If you want a fun match, you are ultimately forced to fight other Titans
It's fun to do the probability calculations for dice rolls. it only gets more complex if you start doing conditional probability. But the to hit probabilities are not that complex.
For Warlord Titan to be usable in "realistic" (lore accurate) way it would need HUGE overhaul of rules.
My idea goes something like this:
1; Titan should be imprevious to anything weaker than armourbuster artillery / other titans.
2; Titan should be rare occurance on battlefield; to field single one of them player should have to field non-titanic army worth multiple times as much as titan itself.
It’s kinda like when I get asked why you paint models, cause it’s fun and once I buy that kit you could go the box art or you can take the paint job or the base in any direction
I will say it's worth noting how much better the rules are for Horus heresy, it's playable at 3,000 points which is a more normal points value for heresy and it's weapons feel far more impactful.
I think it's funny we both had the same idea for how to right size Titans. They just don't have the heat to face off against 3k+ armies. But against a 2k army it is like a raid boss fight.
When it comes to rebalancing them to have more punch I think they should still cost less than 3k even with added punch, all their attacks should have an effect radius just on the nature of their size. But a new keyword should be given predominantly to fliers and some bigger artillery "Anti-Titan." I just love the idea of a Titan being surrounded by Dakkajets and the like while boyz are getting crushed under its feet.
Next time its Hatty throwing sausage cuts to you 😂
The Apocalypse launchers are nice 40 indirect fire shots thats like half a guard army!
I want the titan at 2001 points. You can use it in casual games but no competitive warlord titans 😂
Always glad to see the channel post a video. Love your work.
Salutations from Belfast Northern Ireland 🇬🇧
Cheers bud!
Get well soon💪
Warlord titans are amazing in Apocalypse! Use the Apocalypse 3rd Edtion ruleset from 2019, not 40k 10th edtion as thats really a skirmish game. Its still found online, all datasheets are free from GW. There is even community updates for all new GW kits released since Apocalypse came out.
staying up late (US haha) has its benefits, like seeing a Midwinter Minis video early
So glad that Heresy does the Titans much more justice.
Their special rules and template weapons help a lot.
Aaand a Walord Titan is as good, if not better in meele than primarchs.
I solved the problem by having it on the sidelines, and flavouring it as battlefield condition esque rules. For example at the start of each turn it would shoot randomly across the board and deal some major damage to everyone
Don't worry Hatty, I think you're glamorous!
I think that this was deliberate. They always make units they don't want you to play with have atrocious points to constrain them to casual play. See also aircraft, fortifications, and most legends stuff. Any game involving something as skewed as a Warlord should start with the sentence "Do you want to come over to my place and fight my Warlord Titan?" And in those sorts of games points don't matter anyway.
You do get to take it to titan walk events, they use the adeptus titanacus rules. The problem is basically anything but tank weapons would not scratch it and that would make it unfun in 40k. Heck even Legions Imperialis they don't play like they should.
That OG Guyver tee is absolutely fecking awesome. I'd rather have that than a Warlord Titan 😂
Really interesting! I played a 1000 point game with chaos knights last night and had very much the same issue. Turn one my cerastus lancer dominated and did great, but the Volkite combustor on my abominant did nothing, it doesn't even have - 1AP! His turn one killed the lancer and on turn two he killed the abominant. That was my entire army! We agreed that if I had been able to bring a third knight it would probably have been a fair fight, but that the points values at the moment meant they just did nothing. Making each knight 333 points each would mean they could be usable and viable compared to a normal army, in the same way the warlord titan needs to be. I just don't think GW knows how to balance big things
The game, with knights especially, is balanced for 2K. At 1K lists will skew really hard, and knights are the pinnacle of skew.
That said, get you some war dogs and also the abominant is really bad until we get a codex :/