Live Audiophile Roundtable: A review of the AS Atlantic 75 and the current Rhino HI-Fi series.
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- Опубліковано 14 січ 2024
- Please join Steve Westman and Nathan Goss for the Monday edition of the Audiophile Roundtable.
They will be reviewing the latest releases from the Acoustic Sounds' Atlantic 75 and Rhino Hi-Fidelity series.
Plus news and discussion on anything audiophile. - Розваги
I received my copy of Rhino Hi-Fi's Marquee Moon from Warner Music Canada today. It was delivered by Purolator intact in a thick tri-fold package with flaps with no package damage. The album jacket was mint. The 180 gram vinyl, also minty- no roller marks or recycled vinyl remnants etc.. It was pressed in Germany by Optimal as many know, is excellent. My copy has almost no background noise throughout, very clean The vinyl is also free of any non fill or warp. The packaging is really good, heavy stock gloss gatefold cover unlike the original. What a great band and I always wonder if Tom recorded with fellow TV member, Fred Sonic Smith's wife Patti. Now his MC5 albums were more raw sounding, definitely not audiophile albums. Neither is Marquee Moon, however, Kevin has trimmed the upper mid and high freq edginess and harshness where it existed in the original master. Fred Smith's bass sounds tighter with more detail, not a lot but enough you notice. The guitar sound of both Tom and Richard, on the title track, has some of that upper edge tamed. I don't know if they played into tube amps, but it has a more tube like sound with Kevin's all tube signal path, including the cutting lathe. Marquee Moon Rhino Hi Fidelity sounds great.
Excellent news. I will be passing this on to Patrick at Rhino. Thanks for your support of my channel 🙏
The Prestige series stereo/mono from Analog Productions is a pretty penny but is priceless once you own it.
It’s cool Atlantic 75 reissued those titles I’m picking of some of them not all though . I’ve been happy with the Rhino Hi Fi series I grabbed the Cars I was so amazed at how it sounded and I have the Ornette coming great feedback Nathan and Steve.
Thanks for watching. Enjoy your pressings.
I must have bought my Philips cd player right before the Dire Straights cd came out! My first cd was Heart's "Little Queen" I was amazed at the clarity.
Can’t wait to retire to listen to my music 😅 Being time poor is a big ‘bug bear’ for the vinyl record lover, particularly if others under the same roof don’t share the same passion.
Ray Charles RnR sounds great on my system. I admire Nathan so much for his honest reviews but they all have to be taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't want anyone to miss out on this title because of one man's opinion. MHO.
Verlaine didn’t know what he was doing in the studio during the first record and Andy John’s didn’t know what the band was really about. But they made a great album despite that. Ironically the next year they made a much better sounding record called Adventure. So artist intent is always changing. The new Rhino HiFi doesn’t take anything away. Just sounds slightly better in modern rigs.
I 100% agree. The Rhino Hi-Fi has a bit more bass and a bit better in the mids compared to my original. For $40 definitely a great deal.
Not having owned the original television, the rhino edition sounds fantastic on my system. Great balance of highs and lows, vocals up front etc. and at 33 RPM an advantage over the Atlantic 75
Great conversation gents.
Yes. It really does sound awesome. Glad you're enjoying it.
It's funny you mention the Ultra HD / Bluray comparison because I'm deep in that rabbit lately. Original Bluray is akin to Loudness Wars with all the DNR. I love the new UltraHD releases with the grain in all its glory.
It would be a great oversight if Rhino could do another run of The Cars S/T.
That one will go down as their best effort in the series mastering wise and is commanding three figures in the secondary market.
I have one but am in favor for those who missed it for it to be repressed please! It will sell big time. There is an obvious demand for this to be repressed. Id buy another because the corner was dinged due to the poor packaging.
And yes, do some Van that hasnt been done. Definitive Veedon Fleece, St Dominics and Into The Music would be ace. Van gets the short shaft because of his political, social etc stances. Doesn’t matter to me. Van was a genius and those albums still are classics!
Steve, I think a shootout between the orginal cd, Atlantic 75th, the original and the Abbey Road Half-Speed of INXS Kick would be a great Westman/pbthal comparison resurection. See who picks the cd ;).
Btw, the album was recorded to one of the early an Otari 32-track digital recorders but slaved to Studer 800 MK3. Regardless, hopefully the new one will be definitive.
Eq’ing the sound may not be your job, but if you want to shave off top end or boost bass- eq it a touch to match your system to your liking.
Interesting how Nathan's comments about 'Who is in charge' closely mirror's Fremers recent video on Marquee Moon 😊 Excellent point too, I would not have thought of that... Very good comparison too with the Blu-rays and the way they have over-processed some of the Classic films. True 'Videophiles' do NOT like that!
As far as the Marquee Moon…
I think that the idea of “artistic integrity” can be a slipperly slope in some cases. I mean sure, obviously a drastic remix could be considered messing with what the artist originally intended. The Giles Martin Sgt Peppers and Red And Blue would be that for me.
But when a mastering engineer states all he really did with the Rhino Television title is reduce the upper mids and up the bass a tad, Im not sure that is somehow responsible for making the guitars sound like they were thrown out of heavens ethereal pre-punk throne.
Could it possibly be what Kevin is revealing to us is more like what the mastertapes sound like?
And do we really admire so much the more harsh sounding mids and highs of the original?
Do we want this reissue to be in most ways great or preserve at all costs the perceived integrity of the guitar sound? (the two guitarists apparently were at odds on this topic anyway)
You want questioned integrity? I dont think this Rhino reissue is where that should be pointed.
Go and read about how they ran the Beatles guitars back through amps and AR studio manipulations to “better the sound” of The Beatles guitars. Now, if that isnt compromising the artistic integrity of the band, I dont know what it.
I think we need to realize that modern mastering engineers at their best are still not going to be able to reproduce the sound of the original lps.
In that, one has to decide if the benefits outweigh the lessoning.
I dont know we can say we are getting spoiled by the sound of new reissues. Sometimes they turn out amazing But mostly we are getting something very good in a different way.
And just like with movies in 4K etc what it can reveal is hi-rez makeup cake or in the worst case of video tech the rubberized look of the “Get Back” doc due to waaaay overuse of noise reduction by Peter. Tehnology can benefit or be overused. Eleminating grain structure to the degree Get Back was done is a perfect example of overdoing things out of fear that “grain is bad”
Same thing can happen in music engineering.
Again though, I am not of the understanding that Kevin went in and did so much to finesse the Rhino of Marquee Moon (he said he did very little) as it was simply revealing what the mastertapes sound like.
This can be rather shocking to those who are use to the originals. And revealing to those who are hearing the album for the first time. From what I have understood, if possible, it is better that a mastering engineer does just enough as needed but too much can muck things up. Kevin, seemingly and according to his own words, did very little.
Could Kevin make it sound like the original? Would he want to? Has he heard an original? Does he need to before mastering? Again, Im not sure sounding like the original is a big part of the goal. I do know that many mastering engineers want several different versions of an album to listen to for getting an idea of what the album sounded like originally and subsequently. If not, is it instincts or just a cookie cutter recipe that is kind of being followed more so? In the end, what does the remastering sound like is the main question.
But name me an audiophile reissue that faithfully reproduces the exact sound of an original.
Im not sure we could.
That should show folks that the goal has never been to sound like the original intent.
Sometimes its better, many times not so much, sometimes worse. And then there is the Marquee Moons that are different but very good in aspects we wanted to hear at the cost, or for some the cost, of aspects we consider integeral.
Lastly, imo, rememeber knowing what sound quality paramters to listen to as an objective guide is just as important as the idea that it is all subjective. Learn what to listen for and how to listen. Not everyone seems to agree with that though if course.
Never be afraid to think or express that perhaps the mastering just was not done in a way that best serves the music.
Doesn’t matter who it is: See JellyFish. See The Damned Drag City reissue. See some of the Classic Records classical titles. See The Pretenders AF title…See Little Feat Mofi…and so on…no one has great remastering across the board for whatever reasons.
And no, sorry, “turn down the bass control” is not a solution. One adjustment affects others. If we are to be the one to adjust and master, then just send us flat transfers.
I get that this may not be the focus of this channel but there is zero wrong with criticizing a remastering. I agree it doesnt mean to rip the mastering engineer a new one but that is how we learn what the better versions are and are not. Even the great Doug Sax Im sure would have said he wasn’t happy with some of his masterings.
Everyone you write is spot on imho.
I have the Ray Charles 75th Anniversary and love it! I can’t compare it to the original, but it knocked me out.
Hey Steve - Audiopile will bring those UHQR’s in for you way way cheaper than 300. I think they are like 219 CDN these days. Maybe it takes a little longer though than if you by direct. - which may be a big issue for you……Thanks for the conversation. Always like watching.
Much appreciated. I am going through a cdn distributor already. Appreciate your support. Thanks for watching.
Its cool to have a different version available, but Fremer is right - the original sounds the way it does deliberately
Every original album sounds deliberately like it sounds when it first comes out 🤷🏻♂️
Steve have you considered getting the American reissues sent to. Point Roberts, WA - free shipping no customs handling fee from my experience if you bring back $350 CDN or less, the border guys tend to waive you through without taxes, compared to other WA border crossings it’s generally light with traffic, there are many agents to choose from to receive your packages, personally I use TSB Shipping
Wasn't familiar with Television - Marquee Moon before, but I checked them out today, then I caved and bought both the new Rhino HF & Herbie Hancock - Passages too. 😬
Enjoy!!
The Speakers Corner cut of The Captain And Me, sounds much better than the Rhino cut.
Concerning the Ray Charles title….
Tape condition aside (and that can play a part of course), then again not all recordings benefit from the “audiophile” approach.
It could be having the 45 rpm ability to be able to accentuate certain eq aspects combined with volume may take away from the immediacy and energy of the originals. Ive always thought for Ray Charles that the DCC releases were great. But this Atlantic is also an early Ray Charles title. So there could be recording differences and it be not quite as well recorded. Combine that with giving us mild adjustments to eq from the tapes of this title and you may reveal that the tapes needed more work to get that energy of the original yet taking the edges off a bit of the harshness.
Also to be considered with the older soul titles such as Otis, Ray etc is IMO the most important aspect:
The mix.
Otis sounds best in mono for the most part. There is an Otis mono boxset that covers this important aspect. If the inferior stereo mix is used, then who cares about the awesome audiophile fidelity. By the way the Otis mono set sounds very good.
Nathan the new hatman 🤠✌🏼
A mini you! lol
The One Steps, once again, are really case by case basis. By all accounts Ive read the one that seems to be most improved of these most recent releases is the Springsteen Asbury Park. Not a big enough fan of the album to bite though.
I am curious about the Mofi SACD of Van Halen also as I have a feeling Im not going to like the hotness of the One Step. The SACD is getting very good reviews. I am more curious how the new SACD compares to the great sounding DCC gold cd (which is eq and tonally very close to the DCC lp btw)
Which brings up another point imo…
One thing about being format fluid imo is that not everything has to be on vinyl to sound great.
Yes, I know, blasphemy!
Yet, remember also that the mastering engineers and mastering is not the same for digital as it is for vinyl. Believe it or not there are times when the digital version sounds best.
Take for instance Mofi. Just because Mofi did both the SACD and vinyl versions does not mean it is the same mastering. And what may sound not so good on one format may sound good on another.
The Cars S/T Mofi lp is an example….
The Mofi lp sounds dead as a doornail really, just falls flat compared to the original or the Rhino lps.
Yet the Mofi SACD sounds very good, better than the best original cd versions, holds it own against the og vinyl and is reasonably priced.
Another example…
Everyone is clamoring for the old DCC lp of Van Halen’s S/T album. Yet the same engineer, Steve Hoffman, mastered the DCC gold cd also. Which while again is a bit different in tonality is still his work and philosophy and again the DCC gold is very close to the DCC lp. And that is not by accident. And the gold cd is cheaper.
Never heard the DCC Joni Mitchell “Blue”? well..if you ever do be prepared to smile.
Use to be these gold DCCs and Mofis golds were king. And now things have flipped. The DCC golds use to be high priced but due to vinyl, they are much more reasonable. Ive seen the Joni DCC cd come up for $45.00 several times. There are many examples of albums like this.
Think about Genesis. What were our options as far as good sounding versions? Well, it certainly wasnt the remix/remastering of the latest reissues. Those got panned quite a bit. IMO the Atlantic 75th SACDs, if they turn out well, are just as important to the idea of getting great sounding Genesis titles out as the 45’s. Maybe more so. As we really have the chance for the first time to have great sounding versions on a convenient format (Im looking at you 8 lp fold open boxset of “Lamb Lies Down” 75th). An option we never really had on digital before.
And then there is the case where the SACD is the *gasp* better option with the 75ths:
The John Prine distorts on the 75th. The SACD sounds really really great. No distortion. And no it is not my system. Others have noticed this aslo on the Prine 75th 45.
Basically:
People get hamstrung by the lp vinyl craze.
For those outside the states who are paying $300.00 for an One Step, I would think considering the digital formats such as SACD Mofis as a great alternative.
Id have to ask:
Are we in this niche area for vinyl fetish or sound quality? Is it really the music and sound stupid?
Cost vs marginal sound improvement is a thing also.
And then there is “Do I really like this band enough to want to flip 8 records or is a great sounding digital version with the SACD hybrid good enough?” Then we can save our money for other reissues on vinyl that we are really much more a fan of. “Core” is probably in my top 10 favorite 90s albums, so yeah, I am going to want it on 45 to see if it opens things up even a bit more with the new mastering. But “Elephant”, I decided that I really only want the SACD hybrid (it has gotten fantastic reviews) instead of the pricey One Step.
Format versatility is smart imo. Not sure why this isn’t considered more other than a fetish for vinyl.
If one does not, it might be worthwhile to get a good digital front and explore this.
I have a claim at the record shop for refund on two of those 4 Joni Mitchell records in the box set Nathan talks about …distortion in those records….the shop listened and agreed
You mentioned free range jazz. Is that available in an organic version?
After I said that I knew there would be a joke or two. lol.
@@stevewestman7774 And I’m the clown who chimed in.
@@PrismAppliedlol. Thanks for watching.
Steve,
You "finally" got something right...go Buffalo!
Mr. Pete-------->
aging hippie
Go Bills.
Hey guys, it’s a hobby don’t take it too serious you could’ve you said the price retail price you blocked it out maybe you didn’t someone in the control and whatever that’s no class you’re just giving the retail price that’s it. Have a great day.
Go Pack go
My issue with SACD is you are stuck with the DAC inside the player, no way to use the DAC you have paid big bucks for and sounds fabulous, way better than the SACD DAC.
Sorry I missed this live, and I’m excited about my copy, but the packaging is still atrocious
Steve, im from Montreal and i hear you often complain about the shipping cost, taxes and other bills from stupid Fedex. I understand, and it really sucks to receive bills afterwards.. but the best way now, since we are not in FOMO situation, buy these albums from your local record store. They can have them in stock now. I pay 35$cad for Bluenote Classic and 47$cad for Tone Poet in Montreal. A one step is around 200$. Its way cheaper then ordering from Acoustic Sounds or Mofi, Bluenote etc. I ordered from Aux 33 tours in Montreal and The record Center in Ottawa. They both ship accross Canada for decent cost
Thanks so much. Having dollar valued at 35% less than the US $ is the bigger problem. Thanks for your support and thanks for watching.
Music playback n recording is part of art it is not quantifiable it's fuzzy whether the band or the mastering engineer who has the final say? Ultimately it's the audience
The mastering engineer surely has more responsibility than someone listening to a Crosley with a quarter taped to the tone arm.
“A modest system could be a couple thousand dollars.” Only in the audiophile community would this sound not out of touch. I suppose that makes someone with a 1.5k system a peasant.
lol. Just an example I was trying to get across.
Nathan, just stop. Kevin is making it sound better. Thats it.
What? Definitely something worth debating...
Does the younger generation not know how to use the eq knobs on their stereo amps come on.
“It’s all preference.” So if somebody wants to “improve” the Mona Lisa by changing it to a neon, 80s kind of vibe, DaVinci should shut the hell up because it’s better. We can completely disregard the artist’s original intent? Come on Steve. You can do better.