Why does RGH doubt that Muhamnad was a 'king' (ie a ruler)? Jacob of Edessa was a senior churchman and very learned, living under the Umayyads. Is there any reason to suppose that he would not have been able to discover, quite easily, who had been the first leader of the polity that he lived under at a time when the period concerned was still within living memory?
Why would he accept he was prophet if he said his religion was wrong? And we will believe a Christian man who lived years after Hz. Muhammad or people lived among him? Why we deny history directly? So I can say Jesus wasn't on Quds so he wasn't there?
@@mustafaercumen3187 Jacob of Edessa did not say that Mhmd was a prophet, but only inserted him in a chart of rulers, of whom the comparable Byzantine and Sasanian rulers were emperors. 'Kings' seems a fair interpretation of what he was saying but 'princes' in its old meaning may be more authentic.
Regarding the 7 year, 10 year discrepancy, the most likely explanation is that the sources regarded Muhammad's reign as having started at two different times. Some may have started counting from one event (eg the Arab gaining effective sovereignty by their defeat of the Persians at the Battle of Dhu Qar) and some from another (the formal declaration of a united Arab monarchy). There may be other explanations, but it doesn't have to be a great mystery.
I think the simplest explanation is that his life in Mecca never existed from his cave revelation story to his night 🌙 journey to Jerusalem etc. His entire life was in Medina and his life in Mecca was made up.
@@inquisitivemind007 He certainly can't have been in Mecca in Hijaz if Mecca in Hijaz didn't exist! Maybe, he was once in Mecca in Paran. But the Q.48.24 doesn't indicate that Mecca was v important to its story wherever it was. It was the home of some mushrikun people who temporarily barred the believers' way to Jerusalem. That seems to be all.
@@inquisitivemind007 I did my own translation of Surah 17:1 in a post under Saint Murad's video: "Surah 17: Masjid Al Aqsa? Or The T*****?!" I see no coherent etymology to make اسرى mean "night journey". Maybe it could be "I travel" according to a standard conjugation pattern, or travelled as an irregular nounified verb. But that wouldn't make sense in the sentence of Surah 17:1 سبحن الاذى أسرى بعبد هليلا. The Arabic اسرى is probably related to the Hebrew and Aramaic שרא/שרה verb. to begin. Example usage Ezra 5:2 ושרין. Specifically due to بعبده (b-a3bdah) - by/with worship. I believe the skeletal text shows the historic spelling of عباده, missing the alif from the verbal noun worship. I believe that it is misdotted, it should have been dotted with a dagger alif. Maybe one of the variant dottings shows this? The texts doesn't seem describe a journey by night of a person, but a worship ceremony. It would have been written أسرى عبده بليلا (asra abduhu bi-lilaa) - travelled his servant by/at night, instead of night being the adjective of worship. If the intended meaning was his servant why is there a ب prefix on the wrong word. And the ب prefix isn't used as a tense prefix, as is done in the Levantine dialects, because there it's used to indicate present tense. Neither is it used as with the Gulf dialects, where it is used mainly to indicate future tense. Plus MSA does not use the ب prefix at all to indicate tense. I believe that the night journey only comes out of exegesis, not from the text itself.
@@2platoon Instead of laughing, maybe you could educate us all? And speak to the grammar of the ب-prefix, in the context of this aya. With examples of usage that predate classical Arabic. And while you're at it, also provide the etymology of the verbal root س-ر-ى, with evidence that precedes classical Arabic? Thanks in advance.
Regardless what it says does the document have anything to do with the message of Mohammad? So did the document suggest that Mohammad was part of Trinity or declared himself God? If not whether the document says king or not is irrelevant to the message of islam.
I am a reborn Christian and my comment has nothing to do with Mahammed. It relates to Derek himself. Derek, go and find yourself a proper job and stop trying to impress yourself and other atheists with your babblelish nonsense.
A papyrus was found in 1899 it was in Arabic and it was written in 643CE. we know that because it says year 22 which is a hijra year meaning at some point around 621 CE there was an event that happened and it effected the Muslim community. I believe there was a migration from mecca to Yathrib.
Well, there are some outlier opinions, that Mohammed lived in Petra f.e.. During the Damascus ummayad period the mosques were directed to Petra, when it changed to the abbasside period of Bagdad, there was a confusion in the first time when mosques were built that were directed to different points. Still to Petra, to Mekka, to a point in the middle between Petra and Mekka or to a parallel to the line between Petra and Mekka as the spanish and northafrican mosques. They think the new politics from Bagdad needed some allies and found them near Mekka where an old religious site already had been. And Petra was a dying city anyway. They also think that the quran was compiled a bit later from writings and orals that were scattered all about. And there was a problem since the one(s) who compiled it did it in high arabic while many original texts were in aramaic or a dialect with some difference to high arabic and they did not understand that aramaic or dialect well enough. So some long part of the quran are called "poetry" while its really lost in translation. they say much of the story about the origin of the quran is fabricated in the abbasside time. I am not a scholar or philologist of old languages or historian myself so i cannot evaluate the arguments myself unfortunately.
Christian accounts can also be unreliable - even defective and wrong! For example conflating the Battle of Nahrawan in 658 CE with the death of Ali Ibn Abi Talib, the one who defeated the Khawarij in the year. He eventually killed by a Khariji in 661 CE. Just because an account is non-Islamic doesn't mean its more reliable than an Islamic account. Ibn Nabatha was an eyewitness to, and a participant in this battle, so I'd go with him for the date of the event and what followed.
The prophet Mohamed peace and blessing be upon him never been a king.....!!!! He was offered all title, money to stop him from his message but he never accepted.... Thanks God for Islam ❤❤❤
A king that didnt bother to build a palace because he believe this world is just temporary before going to eternal afterlife and rather build a palace there, a king that died leaves only an armor pawned to a jew,a sword and 2 pair of clothes including the one he wore, a king that slept on top of the mat made from palm dates leaves that leaves mark to his back, a king that crying for his people safety in afterlife during his last breath, a king that seldom to have a food in the table in 3 days straight because there was none for him to eat and he choose fasting, a king that choose to donate all of his part of spoils of war to charity body because he just cannot keep it more than 3 days in his house due to afraid of God will asked where he spent that pile of gold, a king that choose masjid made of mud brick as his palace and place where strategic move consolidate. There will never be king like him, all we can do is try to follow him as hard as we could.
if he was in Medina for 7 to 10 years ( which exactly the time he lived according to the hadith ) it doesn't prove that he wasn't in Mecca before being in Medina .
All of the fabricated stories about Muhammad are from Mecca like Hira cave revelation story ua-cam.com/video/NDHOdxVT5wE/v-deo.html, night 🌙 journey to Jerusalem, Umar's conversation to Islam ua-cam.com/video/V8cF0jNO7BQ/v-deo.html and others like this ua-cam.com/video/Hj-Ur8xiN4s/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/CqyShP2mNeo/v-deo.html
The link you mentioned is giving wrong information, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) was meditating and not sleeping and Bede's narrative happened after almost 100 years of the Holy Prophet's (PBUH) passing away and in addition to this both had a geographical distance of more than a 1000 km at that time which is a lot. Stop trying to make stupid connections, this just proves that you are not an inquistive mind but instead a dumb one
@@inquisitivemind007inquisitive my ass, more like deceitful mind. Caedmon’s hymn was composed nearly 30 years after the passing of Muhammad. Western scholarship at its finest.
Considering all the dodgy stories about Muhammad are from Mecca like Hira cave revelation story ua-cam.com/video/NDHOdxVT5wE/v-deo.html, night 🌙 journey to Jerusalem, Umar's conversation to Islam ua-cam.com/video/V8cF0jNO7BQ/v-deo.html and others like this ua-cam.com/video/Hj-Ur8xiN4s/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/CqyShP2mNeo/v-deo.html etc add to that these non-Muslim sources that seem to indicate his life in Medina only. It's a good question to ask. Was Muhammad's life in Mecca made up?
@@inquisitivemind007 it's a good question but unlikely. The issue is that these reports are not going to hold alot of weight in comparison to established history through perpetual transmission. The muslim has an unparalleled tradition that is alive and observable today transmitted from generation to generation on mass so unlikely I would say. But any academia that poses Interesting questions should always be entertained especially with the information you have put out.
Very intresting system of All dah the Allmighty some of Anbias belonged to the refuted king as ibrahiem appointed nabi by Allah but they hated theose All things which peoples worshiped idiols sun moon stars fire any other things make the Allah partners .ibrahim had evry thing but you realized that how they find the hadyet of Allah And Moses as to Essa Essa as were poor but all arranged for them evry thing .While Haxzrat Mohammad saw belonged to a rich family but thier parents died in child hood and they brought up in a poor women carer who had not milk but his goats began to milk for food of Mohammad saw They were seven years old Allah mentions i give him under the supervission of the angel Mekaiel thhen on twvelve years old Jibraiel as care them always they take thier protection they were quiet uneducated But Allah revealed on them the Quran education .teach them writting and reading the all of Quran .How sports the Allah his Naib Na.bi or Rasool give him evry reward for his sacrificed the life .and his help Allah for his needs .
So you agnore the eye witnesses who believe it is prohibited to lie and you belieive ignorant christians who lived dacades later and far away and willing to lie for their religion?
Why does RGH doubt that Muhamnad was a 'king' (ie a ruler)? Jacob of Edessa was a senior churchman and very learned, living under the Umayyads. Is there any reason to suppose that he would not have been able to discover, quite easily, who had been the first leader of the polity that he lived under at a time when the period concerned was still within living memory?
Why would he accept he was prophet if he said his religion was wrong? And we will believe a Christian man who lived years after Hz. Muhammad or people lived among him? Why we deny history directly? So I can say Jesus wasn't on Quds so he wasn't there?
@@mustafaercumen3187 Jacob of Edessa did not say that Mhmd was a prophet, but only inserted him in a chart of rulers, of whom the comparable Byzantine and Sasanian rulers were emperors. 'Kings' seems a fair interpretation of what he was saying but 'princes' in its old meaning may be more authentic.
Regarding the 7 year, 10 year discrepancy, the most likely explanation is that the sources regarded Muhammad's reign as having started at two different times. Some may have started counting from one event (eg the Arab gaining effective sovereignty by their defeat of the Persians at the Battle of Dhu Qar) and some from another (the formal declaration of a united Arab monarchy). There may be other explanations, but it doesn't have to be a great mystery.
I think the simplest explanation is that his life in Mecca never existed from his cave revelation story to his night 🌙 journey to Jerusalem etc. His entire life was in Medina and his life in Mecca was made up.
@@inquisitivemind007 He certainly can't have been in Mecca in Hijaz if Mecca in Hijaz didn't exist!
Maybe, he was once in Mecca in Paran. But the Q.48.24 doesn't indicate that Mecca was v important to its story wherever it was. It was the home of some mushrikun people who temporarily barred the believers' way to Jerusalem. That seems to be all.
@@inquisitivemind007 I did my own translation of Surah 17:1 in a post under Saint Murad's video: "Surah 17: Masjid Al Aqsa? Or The T*****?!"
I see no coherent etymology to make اسرى mean "night journey". Maybe it could be "I travel" according to a standard conjugation pattern, or travelled as an irregular nounified verb. But that wouldn't make sense in the sentence of Surah 17:1 سبحن الاذى أسرى بعبد هليلا.
The Arabic اسرى is probably related to the Hebrew and Aramaic שרא/שרה verb. to begin. Example usage Ezra 5:2 ושרין.
Specifically due to بعبده (b-a3bdah) - by/with worship. I believe the skeletal text shows the historic spelling of عباده, missing the alif from the verbal noun worship. I believe that it is misdotted, it should have been dotted with a dagger alif. Maybe one of the variant dottings shows this?
The texts doesn't seem describe a journey by night of a person, but a worship ceremony. It would have been written أسرى عبده بليلا (asra abduhu bi-lilaa) - travelled his servant by/at night, instead of night being the adjective of worship. If the intended meaning was his servant why is there a ب prefix on the wrong word.
And the ب prefix isn't used as a tense prefix, as is done in the Levantine dialects, because there it's used to indicate present tense. Neither is it used as with the Gulf dialects, where it is used mainly to indicate future tense. Plus MSA does not use the ب prefix at all to indicate tense.
I believe that the night journey only comes out of exegesis, not from the text itself.
@@ilanbouwmeester6838 did my own translation and became an islamic expert 😂😂😂
@@2platoon Instead of laughing, maybe you could educate us all?
And speak to the grammar of the ب-prefix, in the context of this aya. With examples of usage that predate classical Arabic.
And while you're at it, also provide the etymology of the verbal root س-ر-ى, with evidence that precedes classical Arabic?
Thanks in advance.
Regardless what it says does the document have anything to do with the message of Mohammad? So did the document suggest that Mohammad was part of Trinity or declared himself God? If not whether the document says king or not is irrelevant to the message of islam.
I am a reborn Christian and my comment has nothing to do with Mahammed. It relates to Derek himself. Derek, go and find yourself a proper job and stop trying to impress yourself and other atheists with your babblelish nonsense.
A papyrus was found in 1899 it was in Arabic and it was written in 643CE. we know that because it says year 22 which is a hijra year meaning at some point around 621 CE there was an event that happened and it effected the Muslim community. I believe there was a migration from mecca to Yathrib.
Well, there are some outlier opinions, that Mohammed lived in Petra f.e.. During the Damascus ummayad period the mosques were directed to Petra, when it changed to the abbasside period of Bagdad, there was a confusion in the first time when mosques were built that were directed to different points. Still to Petra, to Mekka, to a point in the middle between Petra and Mekka or to a parallel to the line between Petra and Mekka as the spanish and northafrican mosques. They think the new politics from Bagdad needed some allies and found them near Mekka where an old religious site already had been. And Petra was a dying city anyway. They also think that the quran was compiled a bit later from writings and orals that were scattered all about. And there was a problem since the one(s) who compiled it did it in high arabic while many original texts were in aramaic or a dialect with some difference to high arabic and they did not understand that aramaic or dialect well enough. So some long part of the quran are called "poetry" while its really lost in translation. they say much of the story about the origin of the quran is fabricated in the abbasside time. I am not a scholar or philologist of old languages or historian myself so i cannot evaluate the arguments myself unfortunately.
Could it be a forged document? There were many created around that time and after.
Christian accounts can also be unreliable - even defective and wrong! For example conflating the Battle of Nahrawan in 658 CE with the death of Ali Ibn Abi Talib, the one who defeated the Khawarij in the year. He eventually killed by a Khariji in 661 CE. Just because an account is non-Islamic doesn't mean its more reliable than an Islamic account. Ibn Nabatha was an eyewitness to, and a participant in this battle, so I'd go with him for the date of the event and what followed.
Are you Muslim?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite_Chronicle
The prophet Mohamed peace and blessing be upon him never been a king.....!!!!
He was offered all title, money to stop him from his message but he never accepted....
Thanks God for Islam ❤❤❤
When was that texts written ?
The dates are given in the video
A king that didnt bother to build a palace because he believe this world is just temporary before going to eternal afterlife and rather build a palace there, a king that died leaves only an armor pawned to a jew,a sword and 2 pair of clothes including the one he wore, a king that slept on top of the mat made from palm dates leaves that leaves mark to his back, a king that crying for his people safety in afterlife during his last breath, a king that seldom to have a food in the table in 3 days straight because there was none for him to eat and he choose fasting, a king that choose to donate all of his part of spoils of war to charity body because he just cannot keep it more than 3 days in his house due to afraid of God will asked where he spent that pile of gold, a king that choose masjid made of mud brick as his palace and place where strategic move consolidate. There will never be king like him, all we can do is try to follow him as hard as we could.
if he was in Medina for 7 to 10 years ( which exactly the time he lived according to the hadith )
it doesn't prove that he wasn't in Mecca before being in Medina .
All of the fabricated stories about Muhammad are from Mecca like Hira cave revelation story ua-cam.com/video/NDHOdxVT5wE/v-deo.html, night 🌙 journey to Jerusalem, Umar's conversation to Islam ua-cam.com/video/V8cF0jNO7BQ/v-deo.html and others like this ua-cam.com/video/Hj-Ur8xiN4s/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/CqyShP2mNeo/v-deo.html
The link you mentioned is giving wrong information, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) was meditating and not sleeping and Bede's narrative happened after almost 100 years of the Holy Prophet's (PBUH) passing away and in addition to this both had a geographical distance of more than a 1000 km at that time which is a lot. Stop trying to make stupid connections, this just proves that you are not an inquistive mind but instead a dumb one
@@inquisitivemind007inquisitive my ass, more like deceitful mind. Caedmon’s hymn was composed nearly 30 years after the passing of Muhammad.
Western scholarship at its finest.
@@faisalwho ua-cam.com/video/JZprMoF6tq8/v-deo.htmlsi=cCZCQAdxYnlCf5-f
I do love a good conspiracy theory
Considering all the dodgy stories about Muhammad are from Mecca like Hira cave revelation story ua-cam.com/video/NDHOdxVT5wE/v-deo.html, night 🌙 journey to Jerusalem, Umar's conversation to Islam ua-cam.com/video/V8cF0jNO7BQ/v-deo.html and others like this ua-cam.com/video/Hj-Ur8xiN4s/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/CqyShP2mNeo/v-deo.html etc add to that these non-Muslim sources that seem to indicate his life in Medina only. It's a good question to ask. Was Muhammad's life in Mecca made up?
@@inquisitivemind007 it's a good question but unlikely. The issue is that these reports are not going to hold alot of weight in comparison to established history through perpetual transmission. The muslim has an unparalleled tradition that is alive and observable today transmitted from generation to generation on mass so unlikely I would say. But any academia that poses Interesting questions should always be entertained especially with the information you have put out.
Itd true that islsmic standard narrative is full of holes gor dure
Cope harder!!!
He is most influential man ever.
Cope harder!!!
Very intresting system of All dah the Allmighty some of Anbias belonged to the refuted king as ibrahiem appointed nabi by Allah but they hated theose All things which peoples worshiped idiols sun moon stars fire any other things make the Allah partners .ibrahim had evry thing but you realized that how they find the hadyet of Allah And Moses as to Essa Essa as were poor but all arranged for them evry thing .While Haxzrat Mohammad saw belonged to a rich family but thier parents died in child hood and they brought up in a poor women carer who had not milk but his goats began to milk for food of Mohammad saw They were seven years old Allah mentions i give him under the supervission of the angel Mekaiel thhen on twvelve years old Jibraiel as care them always they take thier protection they were quiet uneducated But Allah revealed on them the Quran education .teach them writting and reading the all of Quran .How sports the Allah his Naib Na.bi or Rasool give him evry reward for his sacrificed the life .and his help Allah for his needs .
So you agnore the eye witnesses who believe it is prohibited to lie and you belieive ignorant christians who lived dacades later and far away and willing to lie for their religion?
You can't even get your opening story right never mind the rest ua-cam.com/video/JZprMoF6tq8/v-deo.htmlsi=FvI784NAPLbNbrvL
Literally the same with Muslims! Muhammad lived 600 years after Jesus, yet knew best 😂
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