I would have been pretty annoyed someone was attempting a straight-in when the aerodrome is expected to be busy. Any expectation of pattern traffic on an uncontrolled aerodrome, join the pattern. Love your work, keep up the great content.
In my opinion, especially when arriving into a high traffic density airfield such as an airshow, the safest circuit join is crosswind (midfield), or downwind join, and do what everyone else is doing. It gives you a chance to see the airstrip and windsock before you land too.
Also... it's good airmanship, when arriving at an unknown airstrip for the first time, to overfly the field to view it from above before joining the circuit to land. This could have been accomplished by joining the circuit upwind for a left circuit for Rwy 16.
I'm a pilot. Aircraft in the pattern always have right of way over aircraft making a straight in approach. But having said that, the guy on base should have extended his downwind and gone in behind you even though he technically had the right of way. It's like when someone is trying to merge onto a freeway. Cars already on the freeway have the right of way but the courteous thing to do is slow down and let people merge in front of you. That's my two cents.
I agree with this. That being, with the assumption that there's enough room behind him for the cavalier to get behind him. I've been in the pattern and haven't been able to get to final due to straight in traffic before. It's not fun when you've got multiple guys on final 2, 5, 10, sometimes even 15 miles out all in a row. I also find it not very courteous when aircraft land straight in at an uncontrolled airport, unless there's no/little traffic. ATC isn't vectoring you, so you shouldn't act like the other traffic is going to move out of the way for you, as they have the right of way.
Cars on the freeway do NOT have the right of way in Australia. No right of way exists on Australian roads. Road traffic law is always expressed in terms of who has to give way. But you're absolutely right about the way sensible drivers behave. Courteous and safe.
@@roadie3124 , You might want to brush up on your road rules there Mate. It is common knowledge that when merging onto a Highway or Freeway that the Vehicle in front has the right of way. This is what causes alot of rage on the roads. If there is a vehicle coming down the on ramp or is in the left hand lane and is ahead of a vehicle already on the Highway, 99% of people on the Highway speed up to stop the vehicle trying to merge. If the vehicle in the merging lane is in front the vehicle on the Highway must yield and give way so the other vehicle can merge so not to interrupt the flow of traffic. Tho biggest problem is that alot of people entering the Highway don't know how to merge. The are in the on ramp or the far left lane and do not speed up to match the speed of traffic on the Highway. This is the main cause of merging problems. That is why overtaking lanes and on ramps are the length they are so the merging vehicle can get up and match the speed. But you still see it. Following someone down a on ramp and they accelerate and when they get close to the Highway they hit the brakes waiting for a break in traffic.
@@MJTAUTOMOTIVE You should check your road rules. Again, there is no such thing as "right of way" on Australian roads. The law defines who must give way, not who has the right of way. Common knowledge is wrong and people thinking that they have the right of way cause crashes because they sometimes think that they can carry on regardless and don't understand that they are required to avoid a crash even if the other vehicle should have given way. When merging, it depends on the road markings. If the dotted lines continue to the merge point, vehicles in the lane that need to cross the dotted line are required to give way. If the dotted lines stop before the merge point, then the vehicle behind is required to give way. The overriding rule is avoid crashing.
On a side note. I’m lucky enough to fly RPT around Australia, and I want to thank everyone for their extending legs, flying orbits, etc, to keep out of the way of RPT. It’s not arrogance, it’s simply that these planes really don’t slot into a circuit very easily. our minimum speed is 160kts and we are very busy doing heads-down stuff. I always feel a bit bad when people who are paying by the hour end up extending for us, I know that you’re not obligated to do so, but it really does increase everyone’s safety. Thank you. 🙏
I have to disagree with you on this one Stef. YSHL gets busy enough even without one of the biggest air shows in the country being held. Rules aside, as a GA Pilot if I hear anyone in the pattern that even remotely seams like they may be effected by a straight in approach then you should over fly and join cross wind. With the height separation, the requirement to make more radio calls It gives everyone a chance to increase the situational awareness of other traffic in the area and pattern. If you were RPT or even the Skydive Ops it’s a different story. Some airmanship there needs to recognise the commercial need. UA-cam pilots like us don’t get any extra privileges, apart from generating some decent online banter 😂 😉 Blue sky’s and tail winds
I’m instrument rated pilot in the us, I haven’t been flying to long. However my experience as a boat driver for the us navy was, get your self in a safer situation and reassess. It’s always better to come home later then not come home. I hold the king of go around at my flight school, not cause I’m afraid but if it doesn’t feel good (safe) go around that’s why we have enough fuel plus 45 mins and an alternate. 4c and come back.
@@davidpalmer9780 not if your on an instrument direct approach. You’ll fly direct into the active landing runway there is no down wind in that situation
In my opinion, a straight in approach at a busy airfield with no ATC verges on being rude. Far safer to establish what’s happening in the circuit, join it and take your turn.
Hey mate great video. Years ago at my first solo I was with my instructor doing some laps before he got off the airplane. On my downwind to base another airplane cut me off and entered base in front of me. I had to climb and go around to avoid a certain midair. That was a towered airport. KUGN. After my solo tower spoke to my instructor and apologized profusely about allowing this to happen. On another incident a couple of years ago, I was going to KFXE for maintenance and I was placed on downwind with instructions that I didn’t copy that would advise me when to enter base. There were a series of airplanes on final. At some point I decided to enter base when towered cleared me to land number 4 which I assumed I was ok to follow whomever I thought was number 3. Well I cut off another Cirrus and when tower told me that I immediately climbed and went around. No incident.
This scenario occurs frequently. My two cents worth... Doing a straight in approach, particularly to an active airfield, is the first mistake. In my opinion, the straight in approach is really intended for the likes of RPT or perhaps charter ops in bigger aircraft, to help with issues around their faster, wider, higher circuits and mixing it with smaller, slower, closer traffic. It suits for commercial reasons, obviously. The downside is a complete inability on a straight in approach, to appraise surface winds, runway conditions or layout and largely, other circuit traffic. By undertaking a straight in at an airfield with existing circuit traffic or other inbound traffic that is flying several legs, you are forcing them to do the mental appraisal, based on your distance calls and their guestimation of your speeds, as to whether or not they can, as in this case, get in from base, before you safely. Anyones time estimate needs to be distrusted. Unless it is so far spread to be no issue. Jeez, half the time these days they are not anywhere near where they say they are and all their calls are thus pointless anyway! Personally I think a straight in in this situation is just lazy. Some might say arrogant because, it implies you are not budging. Yes, the base traffic probably should have extended for you, but they might not be thrilled about it. After all, they have taken the effort to do their due dilligence and actually join the circuit in the normal way. In the end, your go-around effectively had you do what you should have done to start with. I have used straight in approaches often and sometimes even making downwind landings during firebombing ops, but the circumstances are important to consider and it is generally better not to use it if there is anticipated or existing traffic. In my opinion straight in approaches are dangerous and require very special attention. Yes, they are popular, but often with those who cannot mentally deal with a standard circuit join. This is a huge problem today. Not saying this of you Stephan, but I do not consider these approaches have helped raise safety standards. Thanks for bringing this situation up. It is important to consider all angles. Sometimes legal is not necessarily safest. Cheers
Should never try and put other pilots down by alluding to their (apparent) faults. As a mature pilot with a great viewership, it would be expected that respectful & courteous airmanship is exercised rather than belittling fellow pilots online. In this instance, a straight-in approach into a busy aerodrome is not the safest of options and is not recommended by CASA.
I trained at this airport and still fly there regularly so I know it very well. Not only did the other aircraft have the right of way, but there is a power station less than 1 mile after the usual base turn for runway 16 which I've been warned multiple times not to fly close to due to heat being released from the station, plus there's a decent size hill to the left of it. So extending downwind would be unwise.
I have been flying for 56 years and owned many airplanes...in the U.S. here. A straight-in approach at a busy airport is dangerous and should not be done. No problem if there's no air traffic but otherwise the standard traffic pattern should be used...common sense.
From Canada - At uncontrolled airports, join the circuit on the dead side to view the field, windsock etc then crossover and join mid downwind. This often helps to avoid the crap you experienced. It still happens at Oshkosh to some extent where there is a fleet of controllers. Kudos for raising awareness on this issue.
Hard to ascertain exactly but he did have right of way being on base and in the circuit. You will never know if he turned early etc . Personally, I would have extended and always do for RFDS and RPT aircraft and faster aircraft. Having said that generally good to do a standard pattern join rather than straight in, also recommended by CASA when landing at non -controlled airports.
Lets roll back the time stamp back for a second. The Cavalier seems to have created confusion with its arrival time confusing everyone including Unicom. His estimate for circuit was incorrect, he was out by almost 6 to 8 minutes.. Next Unicom should have known about the Cavalier if he was in fact on a downwind and turning left base. Unicom was NOT aware of him. Third, the Cavalier if joining some extended left base from an earlier northerly position should have notified everyone including Unicom well before calling "turning left base" because that's a bit bloody late to let everyone know you are in the circuit. Unicom was surprised by the arrival of the Cavalier. Stef was surprised by the arrival of the Cavalier. The only one who seemed to be unaware of what was going on in the circuit and surrounds was the Cavalier who was also surprised to find Stef on final and then asking about where he was. I would have gone around AND I would have been annoyed. The Cavalier was not aware of his circuit entry time, did not notify that they have entered the circuit to Unicom or anyone until very late and did not listen out for traffic as they even said on the radio they didn't know where Stef was. One cannot merely say straight in gives way to circuit traffic. Stef gave way and went around. Stef did the right thing. Stef was justified at being annoyed. The Cavaliers approach, was a cavalier approach.
He clearly did not broadcast to Unicom of his intentions, nor his position in each stage of the circuit. Stef is right to be annoyed as it's not a nice feeling that an aircraft all of a sudden "appears" in the circuit. It is tricky dealing with VFR in the pattern and IFR on straight approach, but with proper radio communication, proper planning for landing can happen.
I learnt to fly at Shellharbour Airport and I was taught to always radio incoming distance and direction from airport and always radio where I was going to join the circuit. That being said the Unicom had the cavaliers position wrong. The only way he could have turned left base 16 is he was coming from the east to join downwind and he didn’t even radio that he was downwind which is poor airmanship. You did the right thing Stef .
It seems in this instance, the cavalier pilot is not big on regular reporting one's intentions whilst approaching the airfield. Whether overlying the airfield, or joining the circuit pattern, frequent position calls will alert any other pilots in the airfield vicinity of your whereabouts in the area. No one wants to get themselves into a situation where two aircraft are going to intersect at the same height level.
Straight-in to the runway it’s never advisable unless there is no traffic. Every airport has a traffic patter for each runway. This helps all traffic to be in sequence for the active runway! When approaching an airport for landing, the traffic pattern is normally entered at a 45° angle to the downwind leg to spots all traffic and get your self in sequence. This is Private Pilot Stuff, you should know that.
Stefan, I was in a sort of similar situation a couple of months ago. Flying into Watts Bridge Memorial (Brisbane hinterland), I (RV7) was on downwind for 30L, a tecnam called 3 mile final, and another called 5 mile final. I could not get a visual fix, so made a radio call to the effect that I would extend downwind, and come in behind them both. So, I extended downwind... and extended some more... and more. Eventually spotted the "3 mile final" guy at about 5 miles, and the "5 mile final" guy a mile or so in trail. In my case, I extended, having fallen victim to creative accounting with peoples estimates of their distances from the airfield, but usually erring on lower distance.
It’s not easy slotting in nor judging separation of traffic on a long final. Far easier to coordinate with other traffic if everyone is in a circuit. A straight in approach can interfere with traffic in the circuit. Thus joining the circuit at a smaller airfield has several benefits for all.
Ok Stef, here we go. CAR 166B (2) (b) requires the pilot when conducting a straight in approach to give way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern at the given airport. Firstly, where did this Cavalier actually join the circuit? he may not of joined on downwind or crosswind for 16. Even though joining on base is not prohibited, it is never recommended, and I would never do it. If a pilot chooses to join on base leg he must only do so if he gives way to other circuit traffic and ensure no traffic conflict is likely. An aircraft established on base or final for any runway has priority over an aircraft that is carrying out a straight in approach. So, until certain information has been obtained "Stef may be in the wrong" lol sorry buddy, or the Cavalier may be in the wrong!! Another great video Stef, love your work, Cheers John.
Im a pilot - PPL / PIFR. I would have thought the guy on base had right of way - especially if he's joined midfield cross-wind. If he's joined the circuit properly he'll be giving way to all the arriving Sydney traffic on the 16 RNAV. all day .....Just my 2 cents worth......nothing to stop you getting visual in the circling area and flying a proper circuit... The rules read as if they favour the Cav :)
I am afraid have to say that you won't win the argument with the traffic on the base leg. Unless it is safty critical, always fly the pattern at an uncontrolled airport. Happy to hear your thought on this.
You state the pilot knew you were a faster aircraft and knew you were coming out of IFR. Where does your assumption derive from? Straight in approaches are horrible and should be avoided where there are other traffic in circuit and in the vicinity. For sake of good order, just join the circuit avoid these long mile approaches.
Been taught since the early days to always avoid a straight in approach (especially when traffic is expected at a busy airport) and always plan to join the circuit midfield crosswind for safety. Only time I did a straight in was when I was running out of daylight and no traffic at the airport.
Hi All I'm a pilot and was right seat in SLZ during this event. FYI.. my left seat buddy is a highly competent GA pilot. After hearing the Audio I make the following comments. Firstly we were VFR on a less than perfect day as anyone coming in would attest. We made a call stating position 5 miles from the North inbound on CTAF. Did you hear this? We joined the circuit on Base with the call you've all heard. Then we hear the Cirrus call being on straight in final. Personally, this is being blown out of all proportion for the sake of a UA-cam video. There seems to be a timing issue from ATC/Navcom advised we were behind you. Sorry we weren't. Or else we were in the fastest Cavalier produced. As others have commented, we joined the circuit as per normal. We could have come straight in, but on a busy day elected not to. We both had visual and we were clearly in front. If I was you I would have dusted some speed and tucked in behind and enjoyed the moment. Hey, we could have been part of the entertainment! This is what I call a "Mouse Turd". Imagine if this was OSHKOSH. But as I've said in a previous comment, glad you made it to Wings. As you mentioned a brilliant memorable day. We just want to fly!
Finally, i was wondering if we could get a reply from Pilots flying the Cavalier. Always good to know the other side of the story. Anyways glad everyone is safe and still flying high! A good pilot is always learning!
"we joined the circuit as per normal" That for me would mean an overhead join, not joining the base leg. "this is being blown out of all proportion for the sake of a UA-cam video" This is encouraging good discussion about different options when joining the circuit at an uncontrolled airfield and maybe was there a better option that didn't end up with him feeling he had to go around.
Best comment in the vid... "every one landed safe and had a great day at the air show" As a private pilot I've had virgin and Qantas pilots unable to tell me their eta or distance from the field As CPL I've had to extend downwind 5miles in controlled airspace due to military aircraft not having situational awareness. Uncontrolled airstrips when the first radio call is "I'm backtracking" when your on short final. I'm really impressed at the fast go around call Stef. It put instant clarity in the situation. Thanks for the vid.
I wouldn't have gone for a straight in approach for a busy airport with an airshow happening. I've always been taught straight in approach if there isn't any traffic nearby and be prepared to go around.
I’m in UK, whenever I’ve asked for a straight in the controller “MAY’ agree but always says “giving way to any traffic in the circuit”. I think the preferred procedure is to join the circuit. Glad you were OK. Have a good Christmas.
On a busy situation like that I would have flown vectors to cross the runway at mid field and joined the pattern on downwind for 16. Having said that at a controlled airport I have often been asked by the controller to extend my down wind leg because of aircraft on straight in approach.
I believe the way most pilots interpret it is that if you’re in the circuit you have right of way, and unless you’ve actually reached the point of being on a standard final leg in the circuit then you are technically not in the circuit and therefore must give way to the circuit pattern. Otherwise anyone can just rock up on long final and claim that any traffic on base must give way as they are not on the right. You may be experienced and be in a faster aircraft, but look at it from his point of view, he’s concerned only about who is in the circuit and who is joining the circuit, there could’ve been other aircraft already there as well as a number of other factors going on, ie busy air show - passengers on board - nervous/high work load. Yes the straight in you planned is most efficient for you but what’s most efficient/easy for him? He only spotted you when he was on base, if you wanted it that badly to the point of making a video you could’ve asked him to extend downwind for separation and to allow you to go first rather then assuming. Stepping back from both sides of the argument it just sounds like you’re disappointed that someone didn’t give way to you when they had right of way. Like you said good decision to go around in the end, love your videos keep it up bud.
I would have joined the circuit and flown the circuit. I'm not a fan of straight in approaches personally, especially if it's an airport I'm unfamiliar with.
I'm currently doing my PPL in the UK at an ATC airport. Our ATZ is right next to Gatwick's controlled airspace, so it can get quite cramped. ATC generally use orbits to allow for sufficient spacing on the runway, because extending downwind legs is often not possible without busting Gatwick's airspace.
A standard overhead join would have, in my opinion, been the best approach. It shows best airmanship and respect for those already in the circuit, and it’s the safest procedure in this instance. It’s what I was taught by my instructor when joining an uncontrolled airfield, and it’s never served me wrong. Great video, and great to see the comments from differing levels of experience. Every day is a learning day.
You summed it up Stef, Airmanship & Situational Awareness. You need to be listening for traffic, ATC could have advised to extend downwind, though your ability to critically assess and act calmly, saves time and further problems. Well done, and glad you finally got there 🤓👍
I enjoy your videos very much Stef. Thanks for making this incident public. It has been a good opportunity to refresh our thinking & be reminded of the hazards. It is always good airmanship to contribute to a safe environment when arriving at any airport, especially if it is busy. Straight-in approaches should never be attempted is there is any uncertainty of other traffic & if there is any indication there is traffic established in the circuit. UNICOM is not ATC. Joining the circuit behind other traffic is the safest option, using clear radio calls of your position & intensions. Thanks Stef, we have all learnt something from your experience. Kind regards, Ross. YBTH
Tower Controllers perspective here for within controlled airspace. The default safe choice in most situations is final a/c is no.1. In reality its a little more nuanced. It comes down to aircraft type/speeds, prevailing weather (is a 25kt headwind?) and the exact positions. The aircraft on final realistically has one plan b option (go around, which fantastically you made a textbook decision on) the downwind a/c has many options extend report traffic in sight or tower calls base or orbits/360s. I have to be certain the downwind a/c will be well out of the way if I make them number 1. Sometimes issuing a short approach to the downwind aircraft can help ensure this. As previously mentioned there are a range of "what ifs" we are assessing. What if both a/c go around and the 2nd is faster? Is my circuit free if one needs an early left or right turn to clear the centerline for the following faster a/c to make a safe go around. Is a student on a solo? All this means it is always a slightly different point where it is safe to let the downwind a/c turn base number 1. Its almost an art form seeing the super experienced controllers perfectly able to judge all the factors perfectly. Im not there yet - but hopefully will be one day!
I’m currently studying at RMIT Point Cook base, and since im so early in my training, I would rather everyone to follow the CASA rules when im flying. Once we have enough hours in our hand, I would probably be happy to extend that downwind to give away to aircraft that are harder to go around than a C172. Flown in Bendigo for a week not long ago, and one of the first thing instructor mentioned was to give away to quantas link that comes in once a day for a good airmanship even tho they are on a straight in.
I would not have done a straight in to any airport where there's an airshow. Enter the pattern on the UPwind and run a full pattern. That would give everyone an opportunity to achieve proper spacing. Straight in approaches are fine when there's little to no traffic, but in a high traffic area, the standard pattern is a safety opportunity. Sorry. I don't mean to be difficult, but I really think you could have done better in this instance. I'm sure I'll be flamed because people love you - and who can blame them. I think you're a swell fella myself but that is my honest opinion.
If I was the Cavalier I would probably extend downwind to let you land before me, perhaps he was not paying attention to the radio as much as he should. Anyway, glad everyone landed safely.
I’m not fond of extending downwind that takes me outside of a glide to the field. Why do folks suggest this over the other aircraft joining a midfield crosswind?
Those in the Circuit have right of way you cannot call "dibs" on finals. If there is traffic in the circuit and you are unsure here we insist the joining traffic do an "overhead rejoin". Love your videos and flying but in NZ anyway you were in the wrong. The only way you could have continued in was if the Base pilot verbally said you could go ahead of him. Expecting someone else to give up their right of way and being annoyed when they do not is poor airmanship. Happy flying
Unicom and Stef were both given late notice that the Cavalier was joining the circuit, however your are correct in saying that the Base pilot had right of way. Both ended up doing the right thing, it was just an awkward moment that could have been avoided with better radio calls.
Unfortunately they teach us in flight school to be "too" sparing on the airwaves. Its a mistake!! At least you asked for visual in the end... right thing to do. And you did the polite thing, giving way. GREAT JOB! You don't need to justify it.
Once he called turning base, extending d/wind wasn’t an option. Did SLZ call a downwind leg or was the base call the first radio cal to UNICOM? Just wondering whether an earlier downwind call could have allowed some co-ordination (and given you a heads up on potential conflict). I think if I was on downwind and knew there was a SR22 on a straight-in I would slow up the d/w leg or extend it, as you say, but that assumes sufficient situational awareness of locations and relative speeds. I think if it was Class D, ATC would have slotted the slower aircraft behind you, or asked them to expedite and you to slow down (knowing another aircraft was behind you but slower). A quick question: what was your estimate circuit time relative to the 19 & the 22?
No point being right and dead. You absolutely made the right call going around. When I used to fly at YPPH I would often be doing circuits in the am and Qantas flights would always do a 5mile final. If on downwind I always extended my downwind which made it easy and predictable for everyone.
Did most of my training there. When it was quiet day an approach to 16 from the north, straight in, was doable. Same from the south for 34 with the hill in the way. When it was busy I would fly to the dead side side, west, cross the active 16 and join the circuit/pattern mid downwind, with all appropriate calls and a good lookout. Many, many times I extended my downwind when the local C208 Caravan came screaming in from the North for 16. He/She was trying to make a buck dropping chutes, a few more minutes for me with a longer final was simply just extra experience.
I fly at YSHL. The view north when on down wind for 16 is cluttered at the best of times. The escarpment and the 'burbs are excellent at camouflaging "Straight-in" approaches. That weekend was not the best viz. I think you did the right thing going around.
I'm still finishing my PPL so don't have the experience of you or others, and I've had a situation similar to this while I was in the circuit. He was on a 3-mile straight-in while I was on downwind so I was happy to extend and called to let him know, however in your situation I think 5 miles out made the risk of conflict quite high so you should have planned to overfly and join the circuit. Given you also didn't have visual on him and were IFR I think this would have been the more prudent approach. Love your videos, Stef, and it's great that you asked this question for genuine feedback.
Speaking from the USA here. As far as I've always understood here, traffic in the pattern always has priority. That said, there is 'right-of-way,' but also situational awareness and general courtesy that should come into play here as well. Also, another reason why clear and regular traffic calls are so important. If this happened to me, I'd be frustrated, but probably give the other pilot the benefit of the doubt and assume they weren't paying close enough attention to you before turning base, or that they believed you were further out and had time to come in before interfering with your approach. You did the right and safest thing going around. This is one of the reasons I dislike long finals on clear days. Similar case I had once where I as flying a long straight in on a practice instrument approach at a field with an established right traffic pattern. There was another aircraft that cut me off on short final after having flown a left pattern and not making radio calls (non-towered). Lucky I saw him.
I would have flown overhead and joined the traffic pattern considering it was probably going to be busy. He had right of way so you were right to go-around, however, he could have as you said extended the downwind to let you in.
Hi Steph so to answer your question as best as possible from a student pilot. Non towered airports: in this scenario I would of opted for a standard over head join in order to gain a best visual representation of the the circuit and any traffic within the circuit. Towered: in this case I’ve experienced this first hand, twr had a beech twin on long final as I was on the turn to base. However due to the aircrafts speed I was given a downwind extend which was simple. I merely pulled the power dropped a notch of flaps and turned base another 2nm further down than where I would of usually turned. My personal view though is to avoid a straight in approach at non towered fields and always opt for an overhead join with descending dead side unless the fields VFR charts state otherwise. Take care and just be thankful that he was on Unicom ;) merry Xmas mate
Just getting the popcorn and a stiff drink this is going to get interesting….. my 2c situational awareness in pattern should have seen guy slightly extend downwind for you on straight in I would have thought
At an uncontrolled field & given the timing & location details, I believe you made the only right move: declare a missed approach, overfly finals & join the circuit as number 2 (I'd also consider flying slightly to the right of the centreline & make a left turn mid runway to join mid downwind?). If I was ATC, my direction in the absence of any other complication would be to have the Cavalier extend downwind to turn base late & become number 2 behind you.
@Pete H It was an uncontrolled airport. There was a Unicom operator on the frequency who, by law, cannot direct traffic . They can provide traffic information which is what you heard in the video.
This is an interesting one. I'm not an IFR pilot but I understand you normally fly that way and turned out to be very useful on the day due to bad weather near Woolongong which, in the end, put you on a nice long straight in approach. I suppose the thing to remember though, is that busy airshow areas prefer to operate VFR and use radio calls and visual confirmation for traffic separation. It seems to me that a long final is not ideal in this circumstance, to enter a busy and not always perfect circuit. I'm thinking, in hindsight, the track you took for the go around might have been the correct one to plan on right from the start, despite numerous other IFR pilots choosing the same long final approach. I'm assuming you joined upwind or crosswind during your go around. It might seem like overkill but I don't think this incident will be an isolated one. This is something the organizers could keep in mind for next year's show perhaps.
The way I think of it is the traffic density present at a ctaf during a fly in /airshow would be a big hazard, non-normal ops with no tower. Kinda scares me off! I'd prob drive there lol. And as for what I would have done in that situation prob the same, go around up to cct height on the deadside and rejoin crosswind, if possible, and be busy on the radio with precisely what i was doing and listening for others. I'll never forget coming into Bathurst, made my inbound for overfly call, descending on deadside and joining downwind and base call..I was busy on the PTT coz a RPT inbound reported due around my eta. Barely heared a peep from that aircraft after that 1st call and finally spotted him mid final on a straight in. and had me spooked till then..I didn't enjoy thst one bit. I'm wary of straight ins now esp for others doing them
Hi Stef, ATC here. As you know controlled aerodromes are very different we don't follow normal circuit entry, missed approaches or many other procedures. We establish a traffic management plan with the primary goal of safety and aerodrome through put. In class c we would typically extend the downwind aircraft to turn in behind you however, at night it becomes a little more complicated because we don't want to drive pilots outside their circling area below the lsalt. If the circuit aircraft would leave their circling area we would send around the aircraft on final and make the circuit acft no 1. Metro D may be a little different due to the small control zones and lack of space to manouvre the circuit traffic. I have seen the aircraft on final climbed to 500' above the circuit and then instructed to enter the circuit from overhead the runway. It would be much easier if you were all helicopters 😉 Good decision to go around. You didn't hesitate. Indecision is the mother of all.....
Glad you explained the rules applicable. Airmanship is a big thing here. You displayed it very well by being the bigger man and conducting a G.A rather than debating it then and there. The other Aircraft may not have had good situational awareness (possibly inexperienced or training) and made the base turn. You mentioned towards the end that you were conducting an approach? If that's the case, for what ever reason, shame on the other Aircraft for not giving way.
I like that you share these kind of situation where it's not 100% clear who was wrong. I try to think, like in traffic, that no one has any rights in the air, only joint obligations. Main goal should be safety, regardless of what a black and white document say. I'm not a fan of straight ins to uncontrolled airports. But given the situation, I think it would be safer if he extended his downwind.
The right of way rules, while correct, don’t apply in a terminal or circuit situation. They’re for enroute and on-ground, so they’re not applicable in this situation.
Extend downwind. On my second ever circuit solo, I had a RV call in 5 miles straight in. I was established in circuit, downwind, and identified myself. Realised pretty quick that it is important to know the speed of a variety of planes!
I certainly like to talk it over with the pilot of the other aircraft on the apron :) not in an agressive way or anyting like that, but simple questions: - was he even aware of me trying to land from a "long final"? - if he was, what was his plan for spacing? - what does HE or SHE think we could do better for an efficient and yet safe landing for both of us? One thing that I learnt is that I am always ready to break off the straight in, but instead of going around immediately, I rather deviate in a large circle to the left or right, to re-join the downwind-to-base turn with max. 45 degree angle (or less) to the base leg. This works when there is a gap behind the aircraft already on base and minimizes the spacing change to other traffic arriving. But if the circuit is full, then it's holding outside the circuit...
At a busy uncontrolled airfield you can't be on long finals and assume everyone has to wait for you to land - you should have joined overhead then joined the circuit - or slow down - or do a couple of orbits then resume the long final - simples.
Congratulations, Stef! My first ever dislike of one of your vlogs. First up, from the information presented it seems neither of you actually did anything "wrong" (although exactly how the Cavalier got to left Base is presumably uncertain). You say you are "just posting this so we can all learn and grow"?? Well, maybe next time, instead of getting upset about having to abort a straight-in IFR approach to a busy non-towered aerodrome, take a deep breath and consider that (a) your assumptions about the experience levels and situational awareness of other pilots operating in the circuit might be somewhat incorrect and (b) their knowledge of your aircraft and its approach speed, might not be nearly as good as yours (especially if you're not in sight at the time - a white aircraft against white clouds)... and calmly repeat what you did. Stay safe up there!😊
I fly in Michigan, USA. I think the best choice for the Cavalier, if they were already established on the downwind leg, could have been to extend their downwind and then turn base once they are passed abeam you. I wouldn't recommend turning base without having the traffic in sight especially at an uncontrolled field.
I’ve had plenty of those and the way I handled it was by doing a go around or increasing my altitude and going around to go behind the aircraft to become from 1st to 2nd in line for landing
If you were VFR you should have joined the circuit (overhead the feild from the dead side of the circuit for example) and not done a stright in approach. If you were instrument I get that you are mixing with local VFR trafic, so the stright in is appropriate, but the VFR traffic @ the feild has the right of way (in general) in my opinion.
I have been in a similar spot on final with a/c turing base. Did the same thing as you. Go around, better safe than sorry. When twr is open they will extend the downwind, and let that aircraft fall in behind.
as a student pilot that didn't encounter straight in aproaches yet, it also is not that common here in the netherlands, I wouldn't actually know what I would do, thank you for this informational video so we can all become better pilots
I know someone who was doing a straight in approach, made all the calls , but there was an aircraft turning base. CASA testing officer failed the Pilot doing straight in approach on his CPL flight test. Rules are Rules! You can always go around!
Why did you combine right of way rules with landing rules? It seems they’re separate in Australia as they are in the US. My understanding is the right of way is for converging planes, like two coming head to head or they’re converging while enroute from perpendicular areas, not while in the pattern.
Hi Steph. My main airfield is a non-towered one and I run into this issue all the time. If the aircraft on the straight-in approach on “26” is less than 5 mile final, I extend my downwind. If not I continue. Rwy 26 also has an RNAV approach so it could be someone practicing an instrument approach. Rules maybe rules but I always put my safety and those of my passengers FIRST…Fly smart alway
We fly a circuit because it gives VFR traffic the opportunity to spot other aircraft and adjust our own circuit to create separation. An aircraft flying a straight in approach is hard to see, and has little opportunity to adjust their own approach to fit in with other traffic. So flying a straight in approach when there is other traffic is a bit rude - you are expecting everyone else to make way for you. The rules (traffic on a straight in gives way to aircraft in the circuit) are designed to reflect this, and encourage aircraft to fly a regular circuit if there is the possibility of conflict. I enjoy your videos, but in this case it sounds like you do too much flying in CTA, not enough in busy uncontrolled airfields. When in doubt, join the circuit.
Exactly, it's scary to read a lot of the comments here from pilots who think Stef had the right of way...I wouldn't want to be in the circuit with them.
I’ve planned for a straight in approach to YSHL before but given that it was busy in the radios, I changed to fly overhead: descend on the dead side and join midfield crosswind. Always the safer option. Any traffic in the cct has right of way and although they could have extended downwind to let you land, some pilots might not have the experience or situational awareness if they are just starting out with their training.
Sorry Mate, traffic in the circuit always, always have right of way, as per AIP not a CASA generated website that holds not legislative weight. There is commercial considerations, best practice would always give way to a RFDS/Freight aircraft as any GA private pilot should, to demonstrate good SA and airman ship. You did exactly the only thing you could in that situation, to go around, UNICOM gave the wrong information - THIS is exactly why you do not listen to rely on information and not separation.. there's a significant difference. A few comments have said this before in your videos but I would like to repeat it, please assess you standard phraseology when on the radio, it will help everyone with better with SA. I would love to see a video in your capacity with operating a private aircraft alongside RPT aircraft in a CTAF environment.
Well, for an uncontrolled busy aerodrome, SOHJ would be a great choice. Having said that, however, as a pilot, I would pilot SLZ extending downwind instead turning into a base especially when someone established five mile final with a radio call ahead of me. Nothing about the rules but airmanship and situation awareness.
Flying into an air show with a busy circuit I would never attempt a straight in approach. Not every aircraft would have radio. Micro lights LSA ultralights GA Warbirds and some guy flying a straight in approach. Joining overhead where you can search for circuit traffic and slot in without causing conflict.
Stefan ! You should come fly over here in the New York area. This is just another day of flying over here. It happens all the time. Given he was on a left base, if I were in your stead, I would have done a right 360 for spacing, maybe 2 if he is really really slow and called it a day.
a full go around can be frustrating, but once visually confirmed safe separation from other aircraft a right hand orbit and slot behind the guy, but it's easy to imagine than actually do so just a thought..
Be careful of your attitude here mate. It's ok to admit your mistakes and especially so as a role model to the pilot community on UA-cam. Yes the base traffic may not have had the best SA. But as you correctly pointed out, he had the right of way. It's on you to arrange separation since you're the one on the straight-in approach. I've watched your videos for a long time so I know you're a good pilot. But remember, a good pilot is always learning!
The most annoying thing one can face (OK, one of the most annoying things) is the 'smart' guy who thinks that he can advise adults on their attitude and how they should behave. There are way better ways to express your opinion rather than pretending to be a school principal surrounded by 5 year old kids.
Bang on manner in which you handled the incident Stef. The approach of the Cavelier and ground controller displayed poor situation awareness or courtesy.
I would have been pretty annoyed someone was attempting a straight-in when the aerodrome is expected to be busy. Any expectation of pattern traffic on an uncontrolled aerodrome, join the pattern. Love your work, keep up the great content.
In my opinion, especially when arriving into a high traffic density airfield such as an airshow, the safest circuit join is crosswind (midfield), or downwind join, and do what everyone else is doing. It gives you a chance to see the airstrip and windsock before you land too.
100% Agree
Yes straight in in that situation is stupid
Also... it's good airmanship, when arriving at an unknown airstrip for the first time, to overfly the field to view it from above before joining the circuit to land. This could have been accomplished by joining the circuit upwind for a left circuit for Rwy 16.
Hi Stefan I think the best interpretation of this situation is that circuit traffic has priority.
Good airmanship and after offer the pilot a coffee and have a good lesson and a laugh about it.
This is exactly why the VFRG states that straight in approaches are not recommended.
I'm a pilot. Aircraft in the pattern always have right of way over aircraft making a straight in approach. But having said that, the guy on base should have extended his downwind and gone in behind you even though he technically had the right of way. It's like when someone is trying to merge onto a freeway. Cars already on the freeway have the right of way but the courteous thing to do is slow down and let people merge in front of you. That's my two cents.
I agree with this. That being, with the assumption that there's enough room behind him for the cavalier to get behind him. I've been in the pattern and haven't been able to get to final due to straight in traffic before. It's not fun when you've got multiple guys on final 2, 5, 10, sometimes even 15 miles out all in a row. I also find it not very courteous when aircraft land straight in at an uncontrolled airport, unless there's no/little traffic. ATC isn't vectoring you, so you shouldn't act like the other traffic is going to move out of the way for you, as they have the right of way.
Cars on the freeway do NOT have the right of way in Australia. No right of way exists on Australian roads. Road traffic law is always expressed in terms of who has to give way. But you're absolutely right about the way sensible drivers behave. Courteous and safe.
@@roadie3124 , You might want to brush up on your road rules there Mate.
It is common knowledge that when merging onto a Highway or Freeway that the Vehicle in front has the right of way.
This is what causes alot of rage on the roads. If there is a vehicle coming down the on ramp or is in the left hand lane and is ahead of a vehicle already on the Highway, 99% of people on the Highway speed up to stop the vehicle trying to merge. If the vehicle in the merging lane is in front the vehicle on the Highway must yield and give way so the other vehicle can merge so not to interrupt the flow of traffic. Tho biggest problem is that alot of people entering the Highway don't know how to merge. The are in the on ramp or the far left lane and do not speed up to match the speed of traffic on the Highway. This is the main cause of merging problems. That is why overtaking lanes and on ramps are the length they are so the merging vehicle can get up and match the speed. But you still see it. Following someone down a on ramp and they accelerate and when they get close to the Highway they hit the brakes waiting for a break in traffic.
@@MJTAUTOMOTIVE You should check your road rules. Again, there is no such thing as "right of way" on Australian roads. The law defines who must give way, not who has the right of way. Common knowledge is wrong and people thinking that they have the right of way cause crashes because they sometimes think that they can carry on regardless and don't understand that they are required to avoid a crash even if the other vehicle should have given way. When merging, it depends on the road markings. If the dotted lines continue to the merge point, vehicles in the lane that need to cross the dotted line are required to give way. If the dotted lines stop before the merge point, then the vehicle behind is required to give way. The overriding rule is avoid crashing.
@@roadie3124 I agree, recently did a driving course & they emphasised the "Give Way heirarchy." #1 was to avoid a collision, #2 at Red lights etc
On a side note.
I’m lucky enough to fly RPT around Australia, and I want to thank everyone for their extending legs, flying orbits, etc, to keep out of the way of RPT.
It’s not arrogance, it’s simply that these planes really don’t slot into a circuit very easily. our minimum speed is 160kts and we are very busy doing heads-down stuff.
I always feel a bit bad when people who are paying by the hour end up extending for us, I know that you’re not obligated to do so, but it really does increase everyone’s safety.
Thank you. 🙏
I have to disagree with you on this one Stef. YSHL gets busy enough even without one of the biggest air shows in the country being held. Rules aside, as a GA Pilot if I hear anyone in the pattern that even remotely seams like they may be effected by a straight in approach then you should over fly and join cross wind. With the height separation, the requirement to make more radio calls It gives everyone a chance to increase the situational awareness of other traffic in the area and pattern.
If you were RPT or even the Skydive Ops it’s a different story. Some airmanship there needs to recognise the commercial need.
UA-cam pilots like us don’t get any extra privileges, apart from generating some decent online banter 😂 😉
Blue sky’s and tail winds
I’m instrument rated pilot in the us, I haven’t been flying to long. However my experience as a boat driver for the us navy was, get your self in a safer situation and reassess. It’s always better to come home later then not come home. I hold the king of go around at my flight school, not cause I’m afraid but if it doesn’t feel good (safe) go around that’s why we have enough fuel plus 45 mins and an alternate. 4c and come back.
You would't join upwind if you heard the base call?
@@davidpalmer9780 not if your on an instrument direct approach. You’ll fly direct into the active landing runway there is no down wind in that situation
In my opinion, a straight in approach at a busy airfield with no ATC verges on being rude. Far safer to establish what’s happening in the circuit, join it and take your turn.
Hey mate great video. Years ago at my first solo I was with my instructor doing some laps before he got off the airplane. On my downwind to base another airplane cut me off and entered base in front of me. I had to climb and go around to avoid a certain midair. That was a towered airport. KUGN. After my solo tower spoke to my instructor and apologized profusely about allowing this to happen. On another incident a couple of years ago, I was going to KFXE for maintenance and I was placed on downwind with instructions that I didn’t copy that would advise me when to enter base. There were a series of airplanes on final. At some point I decided to enter base when towered cleared me to land number 4 which I assumed I was ok to follow whomever I thought was number 3. Well I cut off another Cirrus and when tower told me that I immediately climbed and went around. No incident.
This scenario occurs frequently.
My two cents worth...
Doing a straight in approach, particularly to an active airfield, is the first mistake.
In my opinion, the straight in approach is really intended for the likes of RPT or perhaps charter ops in bigger aircraft, to help with issues around their faster, wider, higher circuits and mixing it with smaller, slower, closer traffic. It suits for commercial reasons, obviously.
The downside is a complete inability on a straight in approach, to appraise surface winds, runway conditions or layout and largely, other circuit traffic.
By undertaking a straight in at an airfield with existing circuit traffic or other inbound traffic that is flying several legs, you are forcing them to do the mental appraisal, based on your distance calls and their guestimation of your speeds, as to whether or not they can, as in this case, get in from base, before you safely.
Anyones time estimate needs to be distrusted. Unless it is so far spread to be no issue. Jeez, half the time these days they are not anywhere near where they say they are and all their calls are thus pointless anyway!
Personally I think a straight in in this situation is just lazy. Some might say arrogant because, it implies you are not budging.
Yes, the base traffic probably should have extended for you, but they might not be thrilled about it. After all, they have taken the effort to do their due dilligence and actually join the circuit in the normal way.
In the end, your go-around effectively had you do what you should have done to start with.
I have used straight in approaches often and sometimes even making downwind landings during firebombing ops, but the circumstances are important to consider and it is generally better not to use it if there is anticipated or existing traffic.
In my opinion straight in approaches are dangerous and require very special attention.
Yes, they are popular, but often with those who cannot mentally deal with a standard circuit join. This is a huge problem today.
Not saying this of you Stephan, but I do not consider these approaches have helped raise safety standards.
Thanks for bringing this situation up.
It is important to consider all angles.
Sometimes legal is not necessarily safest. Cheers
Should never try and put other pilots down by alluding to their (apparent) faults. As a mature pilot with a great viewership, it would be expected that respectful & courteous airmanship is exercised rather than belittling fellow pilots online.
In this instance, a straight-in approach into a busy aerodrome is not the safest of options and is not recommended by CASA.
I trained at this airport and still fly there regularly so I know it very well. Not only did the other aircraft have the right of way, but there is a power station less than 1 mile after the usual base turn for runway 16 which I've been warned multiple times not to fly close to due to heat being released from the station, plus there's a decent size hill to the left of it. So extending downwind would be unwise.
I have been flying for 56 years and owned many airplanes...in the U.S. here. A straight-in approach at a busy airport is dangerous and should not be done. No problem if there's no air traffic but otherwise the standard traffic pattern should be used...common sense.
Same in Australia and the regs say so.
From Canada - At uncontrolled airports, join the circuit on the dead side to view the field, windsock etc then crossover and join mid downwind. This often helps to avoid the crap you experienced. It still happens at Oshkosh to some extent where there is a fleet of controllers. Kudos for raising awareness on this issue.
Hard to ascertain exactly but he did have right of way being on base and in the circuit. You will never know if he turned early etc . Personally, I would have extended and always do for RFDS and RPT aircraft and faster aircraft. Having said that generally good to do a standard pattern join rather than straight in, also recommended by CASA when landing at non -controlled airports.
Lets roll back the time stamp back for a second. The Cavalier seems to have created confusion with its arrival time confusing everyone including Unicom. His estimate for circuit was incorrect, he was out by almost 6 to 8 minutes.. Next Unicom should have known about the Cavalier if he was in fact on a downwind and turning left base. Unicom was NOT aware of him. Third, the Cavalier if joining some extended left base from an earlier northerly position should have notified everyone including Unicom well before calling "turning left base" because that's a bit bloody late to let everyone know you are in the circuit. Unicom was surprised by the arrival of the Cavalier. Stef was surprised by the arrival of the Cavalier. The only one who seemed to be unaware of what was going on in the circuit and surrounds was the Cavalier who was also surprised to find Stef on final and then asking about where he was. I would have gone around AND I would have been annoyed. The Cavalier was not aware of his circuit entry time, did not notify that they have entered the circuit to Unicom or anyone until very late and did not listen out for traffic as they even said on the radio they didn't know where Stef was. One cannot merely say straight in gives way to circuit traffic. Stef gave way and went around. Stef did the right thing. Stef was justified at being annoyed. The Cavaliers approach, was a cavalier approach.
He clearly did not broadcast to Unicom of his intentions, nor his position in each stage of the circuit. Stef is right to be annoyed as it's not a nice feeling that an aircraft all of a sudden "appears" in the circuit. It is tricky dealing with VFR in the pattern and IFR on straight approach, but with proper radio communication, proper planning for landing can happen.
The icing on the cake is definitely name of the aircraft which impeded Stef 😂
I learnt to fly at Shellharbour Airport and I was taught to always radio incoming distance and direction from airport and always radio where I was going to join the circuit. That being said the Unicom had the cavaliers position wrong. The only way he could have turned left base 16 is he was coming from the east to join downwind and he didn’t even radio that he was downwind which is poor airmanship. You did the right thing Stef .
Hear hear!
It seems in this instance, the cavalier pilot is not big on regular reporting one's intentions whilst approaching the airfield. Whether overlying the airfield, or joining the circuit pattern, frequent position calls will alert any other pilots in the airfield vicinity of your whereabouts in the area.
No one wants to get themselves into a situation where two aircraft are going to intersect at the same height level.
Straight-in to the runway it’s never advisable unless there is no traffic. Every airport has a traffic patter for each runway. This helps all traffic to be in sequence for the active runway! When approaching an airport for landing, the traffic pattern is normally entered at a 45° angle to the downwind leg to spots all traffic and get your self in sequence. This is Private Pilot Stuff, you should know that.
Stefan, I was in a sort of similar situation a couple of months ago. Flying into Watts Bridge Memorial (Brisbane hinterland), I (RV7) was on downwind for 30L, a tecnam called 3 mile final, and another called 5 mile final. I could not get a visual fix, so made a radio call to the effect that I would extend downwind, and come in behind them both. So, I extended downwind... and extended some more... and more. Eventually spotted the "3 mile final" guy at about 5 miles, and the "5 mile final" guy a mile or so in trail. In my case, I extended, having fallen victim to creative accounting with peoples estimates of their distances from the airfield, but usually erring on lower distance.
It’s not easy slotting in nor judging separation of traffic on a long final. Far easier to coordinate with other traffic if everyone is in a circuit. A straight in approach can interfere with traffic in the circuit. Thus joining the circuit at a smaller airfield has several benefits for all.
Ok Stef, here we go. CAR 166B (2) (b) requires the pilot when conducting a straight in approach to give way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern at the given airport. Firstly, where did this Cavalier actually join the circuit? he may not of joined on downwind or crosswind for 16. Even though joining on base is not prohibited, it is never recommended, and I would never do it. If a pilot chooses to join on base leg he must only do so if he gives way to other circuit traffic and ensure no traffic conflict is likely. An aircraft established on base or final for any runway has priority over an aircraft that is carrying out a straight in approach. So, until certain information has been obtained "Stef may be in the wrong" lol sorry buddy, or the Cavalier may be in the wrong!! Another great video Stef, love your work, Cheers John.
Im a pilot - PPL / PIFR. I would have thought the guy on base had right of way - especially if he's joined midfield cross-wind. If he's joined the circuit properly he'll be giving way to all the arriving Sydney traffic on the 16 RNAV. all day .....Just my 2 cents worth......nothing to stop you getting visual in the circling area and flying a proper circuit... The rules read as if they favour the Cav :)
I am afraid have to say that you won't win the argument with the traffic on the base leg. Unless it is safty critical, always fly the pattern at an uncontrolled airport. Happy to hear your thought on this.
You state the pilot knew you were a faster aircraft and knew you were coming out of IFR. Where does your assumption derive from? Straight in approaches are horrible and should be avoided where there are other traffic in circuit and in the vicinity. For sake of good order, just join the circuit avoid these long mile approaches.
Been taught since the early days to always avoid a straight in approach (especially when traffic is expected at a busy airport) and always plan to join the circuit midfield crosswind for safety. Only time I did a straight in was when I was running out of daylight and no traffic at the airport.
Was there a 10nm inbound call? Always give way to aircraft in circuit. Just because your IFR in a Cirrus does not give priority.
Hi All
I'm a pilot and was right seat in SLZ during this event. FYI.. my left seat buddy is a highly competent GA pilot.
After hearing the Audio I make the following comments.
Firstly we were VFR on a less than perfect day as anyone coming in would attest.
We made a call stating position 5 miles from the North inbound on CTAF. Did you hear this? We joined the circuit on Base with the call you've all heard. Then we hear the Cirrus call being on straight in final.
Personally, this is being blown out of all proportion for the sake of a UA-cam video. There seems to be a timing issue from ATC/Navcom advised we were behind you. Sorry we weren't. Or else we were in the fastest Cavalier produced.
As others have commented, we joined the circuit as per normal. We could have come straight in, but on a busy day elected not to. We both had visual and we were clearly in front. If I was you I would have dusted some speed and tucked in behind and enjoyed the moment. Hey, we could have been part of the entertainment!
This is what I call a "Mouse Turd". Imagine if this was OSHKOSH.
But as I've said in a previous comment, glad you made it to Wings. As you mentioned a brilliant memorable day.
We just want to fly!
Finally, i was wondering if we could get a reply from Pilots flying the Cavalier. Always good to know the other side of the story. Anyways glad everyone is safe and still flying high! A good pilot is always learning!
"we joined the circuit as per normal"
That for me would mean an overhead join, not joining the base leg.
"this is being blown out of all proportion for the sake of a UA-cam video"
This is encouraging good discussion about different options when joining the circuit at an uncontrolled airfield and maybe was there a better option that didn't end up with him feeling he had to go around.
I have no idea about the rules of piloting but I want to know more about that 747-400 model!! 😁
Best comment in the vid... "every one landed safe and had a great day at the air show"
As a private pilot I've had virgin and Qantas pilots unable to tell me their eta or distance from the field
As CPL I've had to extend downwind 5miles in controlled airspace due to military aircraft not having situational awareness.
Uncontrolled airstrips when the first radio call is "I'm backtracking" when your on short final.
I'm really impressed at the fast go around call Stef. It put instant clarity in the situation.
Thanks for the vid.
I wouldn't have gone for a straight in approach for a busy airport with an airshow happening. I've always been taught straight in approach if there isn't any traffic nearby and be prepared to go around.
I’m in UK, whenever I’ve asked for a straight in the controller “MAY’ agree but always says “giving way to any traffic in the circuit”. I think the preferred procedure is to join the circuit.
Glad you were OK. Have a good Christmas.
A lot of airports here are uncontrolled.
anyone one with a basic knowledge of a CTAF knows that straight-ins never have right of way.
On a busy situation like that I would have flown vectors to cross the runway at mid field and joined the pattern on downwind for 16. Having said that at a controlled airport I have often been asked by the controller to extend my down wind leg because of aircraft on straight in approach.
I believe the way most pilots interpret it is that if you’re in the circuit you have right of way, and unless you’ve actually reached the point of being on a standard final leg in the circuit then you are technically not in the circuit and therefore must give way to the circuit pattern. Otherwise anyone can just rock up on long final and claim that any traffic on base must give way as they are not on the right. You may be experienced and be in a faster aircraft, but look at it from his point of view, he’s concerned only about who is in the circuit and who is joining the circuit, there could’ve been other aircraft already there as well as a number of other factors going on, ie busy air show - passengers on board - nervous/high work load. Yes the straight in you planned is most efficient for you but what’s most efficient/easy for him? He only spotted you when he was on base, if you wanted it that badly to the point of making a video you could’ve asked him to extend downwind for separation and to allow you to go first rather then assuming. Stepping back from both sides of the argument it just sounds like you’re disappointed that someone didn’t give way to you when they had right of way. Like you said good decision to go around in the end, love your videos keep it up bud.
I would have joined the circuit and flown the circuit.
I'm not a fan of straight in approaches personally, especially if it's an airport I'm unfamiliar with.
I'm currently doing my PPL in the UK at an ATC airport. Our ATZ is right next to Gatwick's controlled airspace, so it can get quite cramped. ATC generally use orbits to allow for sufficient spacing on the runway, because extending downwind legs is often not possible without busting Gatwick's airspace.
A standard overhead join would have, in my opinion, been the best approach. It shows best airmanship and respect for those already in the circuit, and it’s the safest procedure in this instance. It’s what I was taught by my instructor when joining an uncontrolled airfield, and it’s never served me wrong. Great video, and great to see the comments from differing levels of experience. Every day is a learning day.
You summed it up Stef, Airmanship & Situational Awareness. You need to be listening for traffic, ATC could have advised to extend downwind, though your ability to critically assess and act calmly, saves time and further problems. Well done, and glad you finally got there 🤓👍
I enjoy your videos very much Stef. Thanks for making this incident public. It has been a good opportunity to refresh our thinking & be reminded of the hazards. It is always good airmanship to contribute to a safe environment when arriving at any airport, especially if it is busy. Straight-in approaches should never be attempted is there is any uncertainty of other traffic & if there is any indication there is traffic established in the circuit. UNICOM is not ATC. Joining the circuit behind other traffic is the safest option, using clear radio calls of your position & intensions. Thanks Stef, we have all learnt something from your experience. Kind regards, Ross. YBTH
Tower Controllers perspective here for within controlled airspace. The default safe choice in most situations is final a/c is no.1.
In reality its a little more nuanced. It comes down to aircraft type/speeds, prevailing weather (is a 25kt headwind?) and the exact positions.
The aircraft on final realistically has one plan b option (go around, which fantastically you made a textbook decision on) the downwind a/c has many options extend report traffic in sight or tower calls base or orbits/360s.
I have to be certain the downwind a/c will be well out of the way if I make them number 1. Sometimes issuing a short approach to the downwind aircraft can help ensure this.
As previously mentioned there are a range of "what ifs" we are assessing. What if both a/c go around and the 2nd is faster? Is my circuit free if one needs an early left or right turn to clear the centerline for the following faster a/c to make a safe go around. Is a student on a solo?
All this means it is always a slightly different point where it is safe to let the downwind a/c turn base number 1.
Its almost an art form seeing the super experienced controllers perfectly able to judge all the factors perfectly. Im not there yet - but hopefully will be one day!
Great feedback, thanks Logan
I’m currently studying at RMIT Point Cook base, and since im so early in my training, I would rather everyone to follow the CASA rules when im flying. Once we have enough hours in our hand, I would probably be happy to extend that downwind to give away to aircraft that are harder to go around than a C172. Flown in Bendigo for a week not long ago, and one of the first thing instructor mentioned was to give away to quantas link that comes in once a day for a good airmanship even tho they are on a straight in.
I would not have done a straight in to any airport where there's an airshow. Enter the pattern on the UPwind and run a full pattern. That would give everyone an opportunity to achieve proper spacing. Straight in approaches are fine when there's little to no traffic, but in a high traffic area, the standard pattern is a safety opportunity.
Sorry. I don't mean to be difficult, but I really think you could have done better in this instance. I'm sure I'll be flamed because people love you - and who can blame them. I think you're a swell fella myself but that is my honest opinion.
Agreed... an up-wind circuit entry would have been the safest option to choose to enter the circuit.
If I was the Cavalier I would probably extend downwind to let you land before me, perhaps he was not paying attention to the radio as much as he should. Anyway, glad everyone landed safely.
Thank you Stef for sharing this situation, these videos make aviation safer!
I’m not fond of extending downwind that takes me outside of a glide to the field. Why do folks suggest this over the other aircraft joining a midfield crosswind?
I usually fly to and around Shellharbour, personally I would have Joined crosswind or downwind depending on direction
Those in the Circuit have right of way you cannot call "dibs" on finals. If there is traffic in the circuit and you are unsure here we insist the joining traffic do an "overhead rejoin". Love your videos and flying but in NZ anyway you were in the wrong. The only way you could have continued in was if the Base pilot verbally said you could go ahead of him. Expecting someone else to give up their right of way and being annoyed when they do not is poor airmanship. Happy flying
Unicom and Stef were both given late notice that the Cavalier was joining the circuit, however your are correct in saying that the Base pilot had right of way. Both ended up doing the right thing, it was just an awkward moment that could have been avoided with better radio calls.
As a GA Pilot the aircraft 'established' has right of way. If I were in your situation I would have done same as you. Love your channel.
Aircraft on base had right of way. I hope you made a CTAF broadcast prior to 5 miles
Unfortunately they teach us in flight school to be "too" sparing on the airwaves. Its a mistake!!
At least you asked for visual in the end... right thing to do.
And you did the polite thing, giving way. GREAT JOB!
You don't need to justify it.
Once he called turning base, extending d/wind wasn’t an option. Did SLZ call a downwind leg or was the base call the first radio cal to UNICOM? Just wondering whether an earlier downwind call could have allowed some co-ordination (and given you a heads up on potential conflict). I think if I was on downwind and knew there was a SR22 on a straight-in I would slow up the d/w leg or extend it, as you say, but that assumes sufficient situational awareness of locations and relative speeds. I think if it was Class D, ATC would have slotted the slower aircraft behind you, or asked them to expedite and you to slow down (knowing another aircraft was behind you but slower). A quick question: what was your estimate circuit time relative to the 19 & the 22?
No point being right and dead. You absolutely made the right call going around. When I used to fly at YPPH I would often be doing circuits in the am and Qantas flights would always do a 5mile final. If on downwind I always extended my downwind which made it easy and predictable for everyone.
The straight in approach usually means everyone in the pattern has to alter their downwind and turn to base.
stefan great video well done keep up the good work well done ;0)
I was staying in Shellharbour at the same time as this occurred, I also stayed on a hill and had view of the whole airport
CAR 161 doesn’t apply when arrival or departure.
Traffic in the pattern has right of way.
Did most of my training there. When it was quiet day an approach to 16 from the north, straight in, was doable. Same from the south for 34 with the hill in the way. When it was busy I would fly to the dead side side, west, cross the active 16 and join the circuit/pattern mid downwind, with all appropriate calls and a good lookout. Many, many times I extended my downwind when the local C208 Caravan came screaming in from the North for 16. He/She was trying to make a buck dropping chutes, a few more minutes for me with a longer final was simply just extra experience.
I fly at YSHL. The view north when on down wind for 16 is cluttered at the best of times. The escarpment and the 'burbs are excellent at camouflaging "Straight-in" approaches. That weekend was not the best viz. I think you did the right thing going around.
I'm still finishing my PPL so don't have the experience of you or others, and I've had a situation similar to this while I was in the circuit. He was on a 3-mile straight-in while I was on downwind so I was happy to extend and called to let him know, however in your situation I think 5 miles out made the risk of conflict quite high so you should have planned to overfly and join the circuit. Given you also didn't have visual on him and were IFR I think this would have been the more prudent approach. Love your videos, Stef, and it's great that you asked this question for genuine feedback.
Speaking from the USA here. As far as I've always understood here, traffic in the pattern always has priority. That said, there is 'right-of-way,' but also situational awareness and general courtesy that should come into play here as well. Also, another reason why clear and regular traffic calls are so important. If this happened to me, I'd be frustrated, but probably give the other pilot the benefit of the doubt and assume they weren't paying close enough attention to you before turning base, or that they believed you were further out and had time to come in before interfering with your approach. You did the right and safest thing going around. This is one of the reasons I dislike long finals on clear days.
Similar case I had once where I as flying a long straight in on a practice instrument approach at a field with an established right traffic pattern. There was another aircraft that cut me off on short final after having flown a left pattern and not making radio calls (non-towered). Lucky I saw him.
I would have flown overhead and joined the traffic pattern considering it was probably going to be busy. He had right of way so you were right to go-around, however, he could have as you said extended the downwind to let you in.
My 5th Attempt getting to this airport - In this video the behind aircraft VH-RUH is visible in the background how amazing lol
Hi Steph so to answer your question as best as possible from a student pilot.
Non towered airports: in this scenario I would of opted for a standard over head join in order to gain a best visual representation of the the circuit and any traffic within the circuit.
Towered: in this case I’ve experienced this first hand, twr had a beech twin on long final as I was on the turn to base. However due to the aircrafts speed I was given a downwind extend which was simple. I merely pulled the power dropped a notch of flaps and turned base another 2nm further down than where I would of usually turned.
My personal view though is to avoid a straight in approach at non towered fields and always opt for an overhead join with descending dead side unless the fields VFR charts state otherwise.
Take care and just be thankful that he was on Unicom ;) merry Xmas mate
Just getting the popcorn and a stiff drink this is going to get interesting….. my 2c situational awareness in pattern should have seen guy slightly extend downwind for you on straight in I would have thought
At an uncontrolled field & given the timing & location details, I believe you made the only right move: declare a missed approach, overfly finals & join the circuit as number 2 (I'd also consider flying slightly to the right of the centreline & make a left turn mid runway to join mid downwind?).
If I was ATC, my direction in the absence of any other complication would be to have the Cavalier extend downwind to turn base late & become number 2 behind you.
@Pete H It was an uncontrolled airport. There was a Unicom operator on the frequency who, by law, cannot direct traffic . They can provide traffic information which is what you heard in the video.
45 degree entry pattern was created for reasons like these, especially on an uncontrolled field.
This is an interesting one. I'm not an IFR pilot but I understand you normally fly that way and turned out to be very useful on the day due to bad weather near Woolongong which, in the end, put you on a nice long straight in approach. I suppose the thing to remember though, is that busy airshow areas prefer to operate VFR and use radio calls and visual confirmation for traffic separation. It seems to me that a long final is not ideal in this circumstance, to enter a busy and not always perfect circuit. I'm thinking, in hindsight, the track you took for the go around might have been the correct one to plan on right from the start, despite numerous other IFR pilots choosing the same long final approach. I'm assuming you joined upwind or crosswind during your go around. It might seem like overkill but I don't think this incident will be an isolated one. This is something the organizers could keep in mind for next year's show perhaps.
Great debrief, Stef. There are several interesting and ostensibly valid comments. Maybe you can address some of them in an upcoming video?
The way I think of it is the traffic density present at a ctaf during a fly in /airshow would be a big hazard, non-normal ops with no tower. Kinda scares me off! I'd prob drive there lol. And as for what I would have done in that situation prob the same, go around up to cct height on the deadside and rejoin crosswind, if possible, and be busy on the radio with precisely what i was doing and listening for others. I'll never forget coming into Bathurst, made my inbound for overfly call, descending on deadside and joining downwind and base call..I was busy on the PTT coz a RPT inbound reported due around my eta. Barely heared a peep from that aircraft after that 1st call and finally spotted him mid final on a straight in. and had me spooked till then..I didn't enjoy thst one bit. I'm wary of straight ins now esp for others doing them
Hi Stef, ATC here. As you know controlled aerodromes are very different we don't follow normal circuit entry, missed approaches or many other procedures. We establish a traffic management plan with the primary goal of safety and aerodrome through put. In class c we would typically extend the downwind aircraft to turn in behind you however, at night it becomes a little more complicated because we don't want to drive pilots outside their circling area below the lsalt. If the circuit aircraft would leave their circling area we would send around the aircraft on final and make the circuit acft no 1.
Metro D may be a little different due to the small control zones and lack of space to manouvre the circuit traffic. I have seen the aircraft on final climbed to 500' above the circuit and then instructed to enter the circuit from overhead the runway. It would be much easier if you were all helicopters 😉
Good decision to go around. You didn't hesitate. Indecision is the mother of all.....
Glad you explained the rules applicable. Airmanship is a big thing here. You displayed it very well by being the bigger man and conducting a G.A rather than debating it then and there.
The other Aircraft may not have had good situational awareness (possibly inexperienced or training) and made the base turn. You mentioned towards the end that you were conducting an approach? If that's the case, for what ever reason, shame on the other Aircraft for not giving way.
I like that you share these kind of situation where it's not 100% clear who was wrong. I try to think, like in traffic, that no one has any rights in the air, only joint obligations. Main goal should be safety, regardless of what a black and white document say. I'm not a fan of straight ins to uncontrolled airports. But given the situation, I think it would be safer if he extended his downwind.
The right of way rules, while correct, don’t apply in a terminal or circuit situation. They’re for enroute and on-ground, so they’re not applicable in this situation.
Extend downwind.
On my second ever circuit solo, I had a RV call in 5 miles straight in. I was established in circuit, downwind, and identified myself. Realised pretty quick that it is important to know the speed of a variety of planes!
I certainly like to talk it over with the pilot of the other aircraft on the apron :) not in an agressive way or anyting like that, but simple questions:
- was he even aware of me trying to land from a "long final"?
- if he was, what was his plan for spacing?
- what does HE or SHE think we could do better for an efficient and yet safe landing for both of us?
One thing that I learnt is that I am always ready to break off the straight in, but instead of going around immediately, I rather deviate in a large circle to the left or right, to re-join the downwind-to-base turn with max. 45 degree angle (or less) to the base leg. This works when there is a gap behind the aircraft already on base and minimizes the spacing change to other traffic arriving. But if the circuit is full, then it's holding outside the circuit...
At a busy uncontrolled airfield you can't be on long finals and assume everyone has to wait for you to land - you should have joined overhead then joined the circuit - or slow down - or do a couple of orbits then resume the long final - simples.
Congratulations, Stef! My first ever dislike of one of your vlogs.
First up, from the information presented it seems neither of you actually did anything "wrong" (although exactly how the Cavalier got to left Base is presumably uncertain). You say you are "just posting this so we can all learn and grow"?? Well, maybe next time, instead of getting upset about having to abort a straight-in IFR approach to a busy non-towered aerodrome, take a deep breath and consider that (a) your assumptions about the experience levels and situational awareness of other pilots operating in the circuit might be somewhat incorrect and (b) their knowledge of your aircraft and its approach speed, might not be nearly as good as yours (especially if you're not in sight at the time - a white aircraft against white clouds)... and calmly repeat what you did.
Stay safe up there!😊
Why would you not join the circuit and follow the CASA guidelines? Wouldn't that have been the safest option knowing there is traffic in the area?
I fly in Michigan, USA. I think the best choice for the Cavalier, if they were already established on the downwind leg, could have been to extend their downwind and then turn base once they are passed abeam you. I wouldn't recommend turning base without having the traffic in sight especially at an uncontrolled field.
I’ve had plenty of those and the way I handled it was by doing a go around or increasing my altitude and going around to go behind the aircraft to become from 1st to 2nd in line for landing
Only try for a straight in, when traffic is light. If it’s busy, join the circuit.
If you were VFR you should have joined the circuit (overhead the feild from the dead side of the circuit for example) and not done a stright in approach. If you were instrument I get that you are mixing with local VFR trafic, so the stright in is appropriate, but the VFR traffic @ the feild has the right of way (in general) in my opinion.
Wouldn't have decided to do a straight in at start, take extra few mins join mid downwind and slot in without stress.
I have been in a similar spot on final with a/c turing base. Did the same thing as you. Go around, better safe than sorry.
When twr is open they will extend the downwind, and let that aircraft fall in behind.
as a student pilot that didn't encounter straight in aproaches yet, it also is not that common here in the netherlands, I wouldn't actually know what I would do, thank you for this informational video so we can all become better pilots
Thank you. I was straight in as I was coming off the RNP instrument approach.
I know someone who was doing a straight in approach, made all the calls , but there was an aircraft turning base. CASA testing officer failed the Pilot doing straight in approach on his CPL flight test. Rules are Rules! You can always go around!
... or join the circuit upwind.
Why did you combine right of way rules with landing rules? It seems they’re separate in Australia as they are in the US.
My understanding is the right of way is for converging planes, like two coming head to head or they’re converging while enroute from perpendicular areas, not while in the pattern.
Hi Steph. My main airfield is a non-towered one and I run into this issue all the time. If the aircraft on the straight-in approach on “26” is less than 5 mile final, I extend my downwind. If not I continue. Rwy 26 also has an RNAV approach so it could be someone practicing an instrument approach. Rules maybe rules but I always put my safety and those of my passengers FIRST…Fly smart alway
We fly a circuit because it gives VFR traffic the opportunity to spot other aircraft and adjust our own circuit to create separation. An aircraft flying a straight in approach is hard to see, and has little opportunity to adjust their own approach to fit in with other traffic. So flying a straight in approach when there is other traffic is a bit rude - you are expecting everyone else to make way for you. The rules (traffic on a straight in gives way to aircraft in the circuit) are designed to reflect this, and encourage aircraft to fly a regular circuit if there is the possibility of conflict. I enjoy your videos, but in this case it sounds like you do too much flying in CTA, not enough in busy uncontrolled airfields. When in doubt, join the circuit.
Exactly, it's scary to read a lot of the comments here from pilots who think Stef had the right of way...I wouldn't want to be in the circuit with them.
I’ve planned for a straight in approach to YSHL before but given that it was busy in the radios, I changed to fly overhead: descend on the dead side and join midfield crosswind. Always the safer option. Any traffic in the cct has right of way and although they could have extended downwind to let you land, some pilots might not have the experience or situational awareness if they are just starting out with their training.
I can understand now why straight in vfr approaches aren’t permitted in Canada!
Sorry Mate, traffic in the circuit always, always have right of way, as per AIP not a CASA generated website that holds not legislative weight. There is commercial considerations, best practice would always give way to a RFDS/Freight aircraft as any GA private pilot should, to demonstrate good SA and airman ship.
You did exactly the only thing you could in that situation, to go around, UNICOM gave the wrong information - THIS is exactly why you do not listen to rely on information and not separation.. there's a significant difference.
A few comments have said this before in your videos but I would like to repeat it, please assess you standard phraseology when on the radio, it will help everyone with better with SA.
I would love to see a video in your capacity with operating a private aircraft alongside RPT aircraft in a CTAF environment.
Well, for an uncontrolled busy aerodrome, SOHJ would be a great choice. Having said that, however, as a pilot, I would pilot SLZ extending downwind instead turning into a base especially when someone established five mile final with a radio call ahead of me. Nothing about the rules but airmanship and situation awareness.
Tcas is it compulsory in your country ?
Flying into an air show with a busy circuit I would never attempt a straight in approach. Not every aircraft would have radio. Micro lights LSA ultralights GA Warbirds and some guy flying a straight in approach. Joining overhead where you can search for circuit traffic and slot in without causing conflict.
Allways give way to a Cirrus pilot. They are very important and have expensive planes so you must give way.
Stefan ! You should come fly over here in the New York area. This is just another day of flying over here. It happens all the time.
Given he was on a left base, if I were in your stead, I would have done a right 360 for spacing, maybe 2 if he is really really slow and called it a day.
a full go around can be frustrating, but once visually confirmed safe separation from other aircraft a right hand orbit and slot behind the guy, but it's easy to imagine than actually do so just a thought..
If anything else, apply situational awareness, communicate and work it out.
Be careful of your attitude here mate. It's ok to admit your mistakes and especially so as a role model to the pilot community on UA-cam. Yes the base traffic may not have had the best SA. But as you correctly pointed out, he had the right of way. It's on you to arrange separation since you're the one on the straight-in approach. I've watched your videos for a long time so I know you're a good pilot. But remember, a good pilot is always learning!
I'd have gone around the moment I heard them on base.
Or diverted... It is Sydney after all 😂
@@AJS86 Actually... it's Shellharbour airport and not Sydney.
@@davidpalmer9780 I know which airport it was.
It was a joke.
A Melbourne thing 🤣
The most annoying thing one can face (OK, one of the most annoying things) is the 'smart' guy who thinks that he can advise adults on their attitude and how they should behave. There are way better ways to express your opinion rather than pretending to be a school principal surrounded by 5 year old kids.
interesting. in the states, its the aircraft lower in altitude that has row.
as ATC, Cavalier extend downwind for FASTER traffic on instrument final.
Bang on manner in which you handled the incident Stef. The approach of the Cavelier and ground controller displayed poor situation awareness or courtesy.