As always thanks for the shoutout, Juan. It's awesome being part of your content full of expertise and knowledge. I've learned a lot about the helo routes and their equipment.
This channel is the only media location I have been able to get full, accurate and timely information on this tragedy. I am very glad I have this as a resource.
@@brucesmith1544 Exactly, makes me wonder, anyway, he is accurate and knowledgeable for sure, but timely, there are 24 hours, live streams on site for that, just to observe perhaps.
Allowing helicopters to operate VFR with only 100’ of vertical separation, crossing the glide slope of one of the busiest approaches in the country is sheer madness.
As a former NVG rated military pilot, flying in this type of airspace in a non-tactical environment on NVGs is absolute insanity. Also, get off of UHF.
Crossings are unavoidable. Helicopter exceeded the 200 ft ceiling by 200 ft, and was W of the “route one” track. Both of these deviations contributed to the collision.
Allowing visual separation by only one or two hundred feet at night while airliners are on short final is absolute insanity! There must be some change here and quick.
The parameters of helo route 1 and 4 are east side of the river and at or below 200'. Scant separation but adherence with either would have probably prevented this tragedy. Blackhawk climbed to 300 and drifted right over the middle of the river completing alignment of the holes in the swiss cheese.
Sure. But the procedures and the airspace is divided in such way that a millimeter of error, and kablamo. It should be designed with much higher margins, as errors happen.
Wouldn’t approval for visual separation give him the freedom to do that? Otherwise it seems pointless. You go where you need to in order to maintain clearance, yes? Then the issue is more simply “clearance from what?” And that’s where it went bad. Or do I misunderstand visual separation?
@@ydonl the clearance is the separation from CRJ! however, heli crew could not positively identify the CRJ (how can you, it’s just landing lights at night, absolutely no way to tell the airplane type), so in a way you are correct: clearance from what? This visual separation vertically by 100 to 200 feet at night should not ever be allowed.
@todortodorov6056 Oh it’s completely messed up. Runway 33 touchdown zone to the east shore is about 4000 feet. At 3 degrees of standard descent, that’s (tan3x4000) = 200 feet altitude. There’s no safety margin for traffic crossing under the approach.
That late call out from ATC to the helicopter was the second time they asked the helicopter if they had the CRJ in sight. The first Time was at about the 7:24 Mark in your video. The second call came at about 8:05 or about 30 seconds later.
For years I have read countless articles that "close calls" are so common, that ONE DAY that close call will be a direct hit between two aircraft, yesterday the odds ran out and it happened. The feds usually are not proactive, but reactive. It really enrages me that it took over 60 people to lose their life to probably make these reactive changes, which will avoid this from happening again, I HOPE! Juan, you are so valuable to YT and aviation. Thank you for all of your time! On a side note, I have navigated the water on this entire area of the Potomac at night over the years and there's so so so many flashing lights, you can easily disorient yourself and not have any idea what you are actually looking at. I just think the heli totally looked past the plane right in front of their face like Juan said. If they maintained 200 feet, we would be talking about another near miss today....
You would hope that the base would monitor closely how its traffic operates, to proactively catch pilots flying in an irresponsible manner. And the FAA should never have allowed the scenario that appears planned to take place, leaving only 100-200 feet of separation on a good day. It's insane and begging for a tragedy.
Clearly the helo's fault, as he was too high. 67 American lives lost on American soil under new military leadership within 12 days of inauguration. No commercial airliner crashes in 4 years under previous military + civilian leadership. Do not want to hear about 7 military American lives lost on foreign soil in wartime conditions (much more dangerous) under the previous leadership ever again.
@@donmoore7785 Sitting back and looking at this, It's like making both traffic signals Green and then wondering why there was a accident. Buy everything that Juan said this was going to happen some day and 1-29-25 was that day, the FAA should have never allowed crossing traffic with that little bit of separation, giving the airport the room they need and making other traffic move away from the airport.
hes good because hes NOT on TV none of the red tape and politics involved!!, TV news Dont care about truth and accurate reporting they care about headlines and sensational reports
Just to clarify, normally operating on NVGs you DO NOT have both pilots on NODs at the same time. The pilot flying is on NODs and the pilot observing is spotting and operating IFR. This is done so if something would blind the pilot on NODs the other pilot can take over. The crew chief may or may not have been using NODs.
You make it so easy to understand because you are a real expert with outstanding communication skills. That’s why I always wait to hear to what you have to say before forming any opinions. And Victor is such a great resource. What a fantastic combination.
Collision at 350 feet. Copter 150 feet too high (200 ft required). Tower warning to copter of CRJ with affirmative confirmation you mentioned was the second warning confirmed, not the first. Copter also said they would be responsible for avoiding CRJ, which would move tower focus to other flights.
The tower clearly tells the BlackHawk pilot to "pass behind" the CRJ, but if he mistook the following American plane for the CRJ then it looks like the helo planned to pass in front of it. Seems like that would have triggered the pilot to think "wait, something's not right here".
Visual separation at this busy location should NEVER have been allowed! Humans are fallible, this was literally an accident just waiting to happen, and it happened!
@@2760ade Visual separation is used constantly at busy airports all over the world. It's not going anywhere. Especially not because of an airspace design with little margin for error and a helo crew not following the airspace restrictions, and not maintaining visual separation.
Since last night, I've watched dozens of top media reports and the press conferences from the local authorities, the president and the NTSB and this channel and another piloting channel were the only sources of actual information. Thank you so much.
The helicopter could not see the jet owing to a mariner's axiom: constant bearing means collision. The jet's lights would not be moving against lights on the ground as seen from the helicopter, because their bearing from the helicopter is not changing. The helicopter could see other jets though. Their lights are moving.
The fact that the CRJ pilots were never told about the helicopter from the tower controller is unbelievable to me. A good point Juan, we don’t know which aircraft the helicopter pilots were looking at, but it was probably the American that was on final for runway 1
Wouldn;t the CRJ be following the glide slope and localizer on ILS into RWY 33. and not expecting a yahoo to be flying ABOVE the 200 ft maximum into the glide path?
They were able to hear the controller advise the helicopter that they were traffic, so they would have been aware that it existed. Albeit without a precise location. I don't think it would have mattered though, they would have been completely focussed on the landing.
Exactly. Probably “sir this is great training value” and they signed the risk assessment as a low risk for a 200 ft and below corridor around the busiest most restrictive airspace in the world
That seems like ideal training. It is not like we are talking about student drivers here and you train for the situations you expect to find yourself in. So it makes total sense that they would take a training flight in these conditions.
They were so close to landing it amazes me. The length of a river. Those poor people probably were already landed in their minds thinking about unboarding or texting family members and seconds later they’re falling out of the sky out of nowhere.
Worse still, I was watching Hoover's video on the PilotDebrief channel, and he mentioned that ATC asked the flight just ahead of this one if they could take the dogleg pattern for runway 33, but they were unable to, so they asked this plane if they could, and the crew said they could. It's awful to think this would be just another close call none of us know happened if the first plane was able to take the runway 33 approach, or if this plane would have been unable to do it and just gone into the original runway or done a go-around.
Great analysis Juan and thank you to VAS channel for the audio and visual maps…such a sad situation all around and if one thing had changed this tragedy could have been avoided
The most comprehensive update (obviously with the previous updates and basic aircraft knowledge). Thank you so much. My parents were asking me what this was about because of the random and drama oriented updates in the news. Your previous video helped me greatly when I tried to explain what happened, along with VASA aviation as you said, and some news outlets that asked actual experts
Well made report. The mention of PSA/AA haunts me as I remember San Diego 1978/Chicago 1979, old timers will know about those. Extremely sad- RIP to those lost.
My guess is, no, it's flight JIA5307 on the radar that the Helo was looking at, which is why they made a right turn "behind" it (and off their route) when ATC said to turn behind the CRJ. Likely the Helo was thinking to turn behind it to avoid something else... and rammed right into 5342. Even Juan is circling the wrong aircraft (JIA5307) at 5:46 seconds in this video.
@@miabchdaveNo, 5307 had already passed the Helo, when ATC asks Helo whether he has visual of the plane a second time. Helo answers affirmative to seeing the plane and going behind it but ends up hitting the plane immediately. So the plane the Helo had in visual range was definitely AA3130
I am a veteran and have been stationed at Fort Campbell ( Air Assault) two times. I have rode in the Huey's and Blackhawks both while Pilots were flying nap of the Earth (NOE) with night vision goggles. Always having a door seat, I would sometimes get a little nervous when it looked like we were no more than 10 ft above Tree top level. The best I can remember there have been quite a few crashes from helicopters at Fort Campbell and from what I can remember they were usually due to night time flying with night vision goggles.
Do my mind, the controller didn't really make a "late" call to PAT. He had already advised them of traffic a full minute beforehand, immediately after clearing the CRJ to 33. PAT had at that time accepted visual separation, and the call when the conflict alarm went off was just to confirm that they did in fact have the other aircraft in sight. To me, this is an airspace issue - 30 metre separation is just not enough when both crews are in a high workload environment. They either need to close the Route 4 during northerly winds, or Route 4 needs to become an IFR only route so that controllers can provide spacing.
My thoughts are with everyone involved. The victims and their families, but also ATC, emergency workers, colleagues, witnesses and everyone else impacted by this traged. 😢 As always, thanks to Juan for having the best updates on UA-cam.
Helicopter was not “hugging the E shore of the river”, and was flying well above the 200 ft ceiling. The other considerations must be investigated, but they did not respect the published constraints and thus intersected the RJ approach path.
Not a very robust system if it relies solely on the helicopter crew maintaining visual based separation in an environment where it is difficult to see the planes you are trying to stay separated from. Given the heavy helicopter traffic along these routes, I’m surprised this type of accident didn’t happen sooner on approaches to runway 33.
The chopper was climbing and correcting his route towards the crj ? If he would have stayed below 200 and continued on course it would have been close but a miss for sure. And that chopper was cooking, whats the hurry, do they always fly that fast?
1) Those DCA controllers are super task saturated. They need more positions in the tower to deal with the chaos that is DCA airspace. 2) Those helo routes are hazardous and need to be altered OR circle to 33 needs to be turned off with helo traffic inbound. If anyone is curious, ATC requests pilots do the circle to 33 in order to increase DCA’s ability to handle traffic. It’s an airport that is already too busy, and last year the $enate pu$hed through additional $lot$ at DCA, de$pite the FAA pu$hing back…I wonder why….
I agree that limiting aircraft to runway 1 when a helo is heading south on that route would have kept them apart. Now, is it possible that the chopper thought the aircraft was heading for runway one since it’s the most common one?
Once again you provide details and information with out making it sensational. Plus you don’t look for someone to blame but just how things are. Thank you.
It is so helpful and educational to have an actual expert review the events and the data from these events as they become available. The only thing I can conclude was not involved in the Swiss Cheese model is DEI. My heart goes out to the families of those who lost their lives. There will be more to learn and I am confident you will find it here from Juan Browne.
From what I'm hearing on the web, the 🚁 was in a blind spot under the wing of the CRJ, as the plane was making his final turn (side step, dog leg, curve whatever it's called) to land on runway 33, so even if the pilots were on the same frequency as the helicopter and we're told to look out for it, they would not have been able to see it approach in time to make evasive climb away maneuvers and get some much needed distance between them.
ATC is responsible for separation at this point. The CRJ are responsible for remaining visual with the field and any preceding aircraft which there wasn't in this case.
ATC requires "the highest level of genius" Pay $135,000 with pay and retirement benefits being threatened. 24 controllers working this tower to keep it operating 24/7. ATC needs more resources not less.
@@JohnnyMotel99 In addition to that, the training is long and not transferable to other airports so they are either stuck in one place or have to revert to a trainee all over again if they want to go to a more desirable area. They are also doing swing shifts like an average factory worker which is hard on the body and mind.
Not only is he too high, but the helo pilot is supposed to hug the eastern shoreline of the river, yet he inexplicably makes a 30 degree turn to the right as if he plans to cross the river. I believe the data points are accurate because you can see how smooth the turn is for 5432 as it goes in for landing.
Absolutely excellent analysis..I’ve flown in/out of DCA hundreds of times over my 42 years at Northwest/Delta in the B727, A320, B757. I couldn’t add a single thing..well done sir.
Another expert video Juan. Excellent discussion and accurate analysis of this terrible tragedy. Just heartbreaking. Thank you for what you do for us in the aviation and lay community.
As I said in my last post, the NVGs can be bad juju. "Beak to Beak" ... the RJ's landing light would definitely desensitize the goggles, and they will take some seconds after that light disappears to recover full sensitivity. As you mentioned, depth perception is an issue, but also they are seeing monochromatic (no color!!!), and you have to look UNDER the goggles to read your instruments. Maybe the training was to help maintain goggle currency. Our ops in law enforcement would not have both pilots on goggles in a busy airspace with lots of cultural lighting. NVG training would be treated like IFR training, you need a safety pilot with a full field of view and colors to see and avoid.
Great analysis. In addition to not maintaining altitude, the helicopter seems to be drifting away from the east edge of the river. Collision wouldn't have occurred if it had been hugging the east side of the river at 200 feet altitude. Now they need to figure out why that happened.
Helicopter clearly too high, irrespective. If that height appears on ATC displays, it shoul presumably be reported as a violation. Has that happened before?
In looking at the only footage of the crash we have been shown, you can clearly see that the CRJ is descending, but it also appears that the Blackhawk is also climbing. The ADSB data seems to show this as well. Why was the helo climbing ?
As always, Juan, your channel is very informative. In my opinion based on information so far, the second time the ATC controller radioed PAT25 regarding having the CRJ in sight should have instead been an instruction to halt or turn away rather than relying on PAT25’s “see-and-avoid”. ATC has to visualize everything in 3D. Clearly, the CRJ is flying a descending and banking left turn on short final with clearance to land. I have serious doubts the crew of the CRJ ever saw PAT25 as they were descending from a higher altitude and there belly with the left bank angle created a huge blind spot. Then, to make matters worse, PAT25 began climbing above the 200’ restriction. So, continuing with my opinion, I feel there is a shared responsibility between PAT25 and the ATC controller for this tragedy. May the victims rest in peace and prayers for all their surviving loved ones.
Thanks for the update Juan. Air traffic control staffing at the time of the crash is being reported as "not normal"...Possibly another hole in the swiss cheese that will need to be investigated.
Big question is, "Why did the helo *_turn right_* / west into the CRJ?" Were they turning right onto helicopter Route 6 to Return to Base at Davison AAF? We need ATC comms earlier in the tape than Victor has published to know what the helicopter's flight path was going to be at and beyond DCA.
Thank you so much for this break down. I am a super fan of your channel. This was very informative and horrific at the same time. MR. Brown You are the best thanks again.
Very solid analysis. Great job Juan. You probally made this before news they were short a controller. As most accident usually a compliation of minor errors creating the environment.
My experience flying military single place jets (1970 to 1998) and using UHF, our towers (and maybe approach) had a retransmit facility so that we pilots heard both UHF and VHF transmissions. It worked well for situational awareness.
That happened so fast in the end. I can't imagine watching the 2 radar blips merge both horizontally and vertically and giving no overriding instructions to the either aircraft while the "collision alarm" is also going off. Way too much confidence in the PAT 25 crew. I'm going to guess that this alarm is going off all the time during helo ops and is routinely ignored by controllers. Human Factors : norms and complacency on display IMO.
03:05 what hes talking about there is CBDR constant bearing , Decreasing range. Basically, neither had any visible reference points, particularly at night and going nose to nose.
As always thanks for the shoutout, Juan. It's awesome being part of your content full of expertise and knowledge. I've learned a lot about the helo routes and their equipment.
You both are legends. ❤
Dude, your stuff is awesome.
Victor, your work is amazing and so very helpful. THANK YOU!
You are both awesome, thank you.
i thought my eyes were deceiving me for a moment. they aren't. i've watched a lot of your videos 🤙🏾
This channel is the only media location I have been able to get full, accurate and timely information on this tragedy. I am very glad I have this as a resource.
Somebody says this on every channel lol
This truly is and I’ve watched quite a few videos searching for information….
Agree!!
@@brucesmith1544 Exactly, makes me wonder, anyway, he is accurate and knowledgeable for sure, but timely, there are 24 hours, live streams on site for that, just to observe perhaps.
Totally agree.
Allowing helicopters to operate VFR with only 100’ of vertical separation, crossing the glide slope of one of the busiest approaches in the country is sheer madness.
That is the recipe for disaster ! Crazy..
And for training and at night. Yeah, this was an eventuality without question.
At night, no less.
That was my EXACT conclusion !!!!
@@gruanger You expect night training during the day??
As a former NVG rated military pilot, flying in this type of airspace in a non-tactical environment on NVGs is absolute insanity. Also, get off of UHF.
Agreed. I always transmitted on Victor around busy airports. Uniform is fine in the flight levels.
Pilot half blind due to NVG, different frequencies, and probably no operative TCAS, in busy airspace? What could possibly go wrong! Baffling!
Helicopter did not maintain specified max altitude, whether they keyed on the wrong aircraft or were on NVG's. Sad...
A cluster fuck waiting to happen and then did.
@@2760ade Too low for TCAS.
I suspect it is time for some changes to the Washington Class B! Putting that helicopter route under the finals for 33 is insane!
It's probably been like that for 50+ years tbh. Let's wait for the investigation before we reroute all the air traffic around DC
Just tell the army to take their training base elsewhere. Some General throwing his weight around. Stupid location.
Crossings are unavoidable. Helicopter exceeded the 200 ft ceiling by 200 ft, and was W of the “route one” track. Both of these deviations contributed to the collision.
Allowing visual separation by only one or two hundred feet at night while airliners are on short final is absolute insanity! There must be some change here and quick.
@@glomph the way around this is to send the traffic on a different route with some track miles to climb and then overfly the field
This whole arrangement seems like madness.
Esp. At night.
Welcome to the US airspace system. Overcrowded airspace with understaffed controllers.
Agreed. It seems to be inviting something like this.
(Mostly) controlled chaos.
@@markg7963 When did this last happen?
The parameters of helo route 1 and 4 are east side of the river and at or below 200'. Scant separation but adherence with either would have probably prevented this tragedy. Blackhawk climbed to 300 and drifted right over the middle of the river completing alignment of the holes in the swiss cheese.
Thank you Pilot Debrief.....
NO ONE, Juan (except you) has had the guts to say that that the helo was above its mandated altitude.
Off course to the west and too high.
PAT25 was not just high but also off-course. Route 4 hugs the shore and the helicopter was in the middle of the river.
Sure. But the procedures and the airspace is divided in such way that a millimeter of error, and kablamo. It should be designed with much higher margins, as errors happen.
Wouldn’t approval for visual separation give him the freedom to do that? Otherwise it seems pointless. You go where you need to in order to maintain clearance, yes?
Then the issue is more simply “clearance from what?” And that’s where it went bad.
Or do I misunderstand visual separation?
@@ydonl the clearance is the separation from CRJ! however, heli crew could not positively identify the CRJ (how can you, it’s just landing lights at night, absolutely no way to tell the airplane type), so in a way you are correct: clearance from what? This visual separation vertically by 100 to 200 feet at night should not ever be allowed.
@@ydonl You may be on the right track horizontally, but I doubt vertically.
@todortodorov6056 Oh it’s completely messed up. Runway 33 touchdown zone to the east shore is about 4000 feet. At 3 degrees of standard descent, that’s (tan3x4000) = 200 feet altitude. There’s no safety margin for traffic crossing under the approach.
That late call out from ATC to the helicopter was the second time they asked the helicopter if they had the CRJ in sight. The first Time was at about the 7:24 Mark in your video. The second call came at about 8:05 or about 30 seconds later.
It appears that the ATC knew there was something rotten and he wasn't sure that the PAT would not collide with the CRJ.
For years I have read countless articles that "close calls" are so common, that ONE DAY that close call will be a direct hit between two aircraft, yesterday the odds ran out and it happened. The feds usually are not proactive, but reactive. It really enrages me that it took over 60 people to lose their life to probably make these reactive changes, which will avoid this from happening again, I HOPE! Juan, you are so valuable to YT and aviation. Thank you for all of your time!
On a side note, I have navigated the water on this entire area of the Potomac at night over the years and there's so so so many flashing lights, you can easily disorient yourself and not have any idea what you are actually looking at.
I just think the heli totally looked past the plane right in front of their face like Juan said. If they maintained 200 feet, we would be talking about another near miss today....
Wasn't this airport supposed to be phased out when Dulles came on line?
You would hope that the base would monitor closely how its traffic operates, to proactively catch pilots flying in an irresponsible manner. And the FAA should never have allowed the scenario that appears planned to take place, leaving only 100-200 feet of separation on a good day. It's insane and begging for a tragedy.
@@Johnny-tt8zc Living in the DC area the increase in logistical hassle, as a passenger, involved in flying in/out of Dulles vs. DCA is significant
Clearly the helo's fault, as he was too high. 67 American lives lost on American soil under new military leadership within 12 days of inauguration. No commercial airliner crashes in 4 years under previous military + civilian leadership. Do not want to hear about 7 military American lives lost on foreign soil in wartime conditions (much more dangerous) under the previous leadership ever again.
@@donmoore7785 Sitting back and looking at this, It's like making both traffic signals Green and then wondering why there was a accident. Buy everything that Juan said this was going to happen some day and 1-29-25 was that day, the FAA should have never allowed crossing traffic with that little bit of separation, giving the airport the room they need and making other traffic move away from the airport.
By far the best analysis on the Internet, you should be in TV
hes good because hes NOT on TV none of the red tape and politics involved!!, TV news Dont care about truth and accurate reporting they care about headlines and sensational reports
TV (and most TV viewers) doesn't want 12 mins of in-depth analysis like this. But agree this is very good stuff by Juan.
1000% All fact. No fluff. No bull.
There’d be at least 15 minutes of TV commercials interspersed in the video. That alone would turn off most viewing audiences.
@@tygerbyrnand there would be 10 mins of idiotic questions from the talking heads who hadn’t comprehended the facts Juan had just given them.
Great job, Juan, & Victor@ Vas
Just to clarify, normally operating on NVGs you DO NOT have both pilots on NODs at the same time. The pilot flying is on NODs and the pilot observing is spotting and operating IFR. This is done so if something would blind the pilot on NODs the other pilot can take over. The crew chief may or may not have been using NODs.
Also, they would have not been on NVG’s over DC. Way too much light
Good information, I wondered about that reasoning
Thank you Juan. I can tell by your sigh at the end you are disgusted with what happened.
The senselessness.
Keep up the excellent work my friend.
NVG ops is insane in those traffic conditions.
If they were wearing them, that is.
I think he was only relying on the force
Never used white phos NG but have heard that they are not great in high ambient light conditions
@@funkyybuddha2438 dont they really desensitize your natural night vision substantially? And no peripheral vision ?
@@robin_holdenthey were
VAS IS AWESOME ! And so are you!
The amount of information provided in your videos compared to ANYTHING else on UA-cam is staggering.
You make it so easy to understand because you are a real expert with outstanding communication skills. That’s why I always wait to hear to what you have to say before forming any opinions.
And Victor is such a great resource. What a fantastic combination.
Collision at 350 feet. Copter 150 feet too high (200 ft required). Tower warning to copter of CRJ with affirmative confirmation you mentioned was the second warning confirmed, not the first. Copter also said they would be responsible for avoiding CRJ, which would move tower focus to other flights.
The tower clearly tells the BlackHawk pilot to "pass behind" the CRJ, but if he mistook the following American plane for the CRJ then it looks like the helo planned to pass in front of it. Seems like that would have triggered the pilot to think "wait, something's not right here".
And one good thing about helicopters is you can just stop and work things out if you're confused.
How the controller didn’t ask the Heli to slow down or do a 360 is beyond comprehension
This would be my question. If you get a collision warning and one of the craft can hover, just have them stop and wait.
You can say goodbye to using night time visual separation rules at this airport.😱
Visual separation at this busy location should NEVER have been allowed! Humans are fallible, this was literally an accident just waiting to happen, and it happened!
@@2760ade Visual separation is used constantly at busy airports all over the world. It's not going anywhere. Especially not because of an airspace design with little margin for error and a helo crew not following the airspace restrictions, and not maintaining visual separation.
That is one potential written-in-blood rule resulting from this. Not a terrible one either.
Since last night, I've watched dozens of top media reports and the press conferences from the local authorities, the president and the NTSB and this channel and another piloting channel were the only sources of actual information. Thank you so much.
It sure looks like the helo climbed above the ceiling for the route. Still a ridiculously tight vertical separation but ....
The helicopter could not see the jet owing to a mariner's axiom: constant bearing means collision. The jet's lights would not be moving against lights on the ground as seen from the helicopter, because their bearing from the helicopter is not changing. The helicopter could see other jets though. Their lights are moving.
constant bearing means collision! thank you for that take away!
I don’t agree. There was a lateral component to each aircraft’s view of the other.
Steady bearing predicting collision, however, is correct.
The fact that the CRJ pilots were never told about the helicopter from the tower controller is unbelievable to me. A good point Juan, we don’t know which aircraft the helicopter pilots were looking at, but it was probably the American that was on final for runway 1
What good would it have done? I've never flown a plane; but I'd expect they have enormous blind spots
Wouldn;t the CRJ be following the glide slope and localizer on ILS into RWY 33. and not expecting a yahoo to be flying ABOVE the 200 ft maximum into the glide path?
Exactly. I just needed a better ATC audio presented here to seem to confirm that issue.
They were able to hear the controller advise the helicopter that they were traffic, so they would have been aware that it existed. Albeit without a precise location. I don't think it would have mattered though, they would have been completely focussed on the landing.
Juan, what I don’t understand is why they have training going on, especially at night, around a busy commercial airport?
These ppl would be more qualified than most before their training. Could be training for this very airspace...
Exactly. Probably “sir this is great training value” and they signed the risk assessment as a low risk for a 200 ft and below corridor around the busiest most restrictive airspace in the world
PAT stands for priority air transportation. Where do you think the VIPs are coming and going from?
Military pilots fly training all the time, it's how they keep proficient. It's also a very loose generic term.
That seems like ideal training. It is not like we are talking about student drivers here and you train for the situations you expect to find yourself in. So it makes total sense that they would take a training flight in these conditions.
Thank you, Juan! Always come here first for the best and most informative updates on accidents and air safety!
Thanks for your coverage, Juan. Clearly the highest signal-to-noise ratio on reporting this tragic accident.
They were so close to landing it amazes me. The length of a river. Those poor people probably were already landed in their minds thinking about unboarding or texting family members and seconds later they’re falling out of the sky out of nowhere.
Worse still, I was watching Hoover's video on the PilotDebrief channel, and he mentioned that ATC asked the flight just ahead of this one if they could take the dogleg pattern for runway 33, but they were unable to, so they asked this plane if they could, and the crew said they could.
It's awful to think this would be just another close call none of us know happened if the first plane was able to take the runway 33 approach, or if this plane would have been unable to do it and just gone into the original runway or done a go-around.
@@aaronwhite1786 there are no If's. Don't even do there
very well detailed Juan. It is much clearer what happen. The visual graphics help also.
Great analysis Juan and thank you to VAS channel for the audio and visual maps…such a sad situation all around and if one thing had changed this tragedy could have been avoided
The most comprehensive update (obviously with the previous updates and basic aircraft knowledge). Thank you so much. My parents were asking me what this was about because of the random and drama oriented updates in the news. Your previous video helped me greatly when I tried to explain what happened, along with VASA aviation as you said, and some news outlets that asked actual experts
Looks like a classic case of cascading failures. So sad. Prayers for all involved.
The image at 9:41 is your answer. The Helo was at 350'.
We need Juan to be the FAA director and have full control to make whatever changes are needed.
Really sad. Best analysis period. So much misinformation out there and conspiracies. Thanks for doing what you do.
Well made report. The mention of PSA/AA haunts me as I remember San Diego 1978/Chicago 1979, old timers will know about those. Extremely sad- RIP to those lost.
Did Helo get confused which plane he was looking for? Could he have seen the following plane for RWY01? AAL3130
He mentioned that in the video...
Juan mentioned it, but you may also want to see the flight data on Mick West's channel. 👍
My guess is, no, it's flight JIA5307 on the radar that the Helo was looking at, which is why they made a right turn "behind" it (and off their route) when ATC said to turn behind the CRJ. Likely the Helo was thinking to turn behind it to avoid something else... and rammed right into 5342. Even Juan is circling the wrong aircraft (JIA5307) at 5:46 seconds in this video.
@@miabchdaveNo, 5307 had already passed the Helo, when ATC asks Helo whether he has visual of the plane a second time.
Helo answers affirmative to seeing the plane and going behind it but ends up hitting the plane immediately.
So the plane the Helo had in visual range was definitely AA3130
See this is why I come here. No BS, just good facts! Thank you!
Agreed. Seriously some of the ridiculousness I've been seeing today should be considered criminal
"We don't know anything, but we have strong opinions" - Dear Leader of the USA.
This channel is a service to humanity.
Someone should send this to Donnie
Politicizing a catastrophe with moronic DEI faux outrage is disgusting, but entirely on brand for the mouth breather in chief.
The maga motto
@@frankpinmtltoo sophisticated info for him
@frankpinmtl The Convict Orange Baby King is so drunk on power, ego & hubris, he has no reason to listen to anyone...
I appreciate you sir. Always bringing the best coverage of these incidents. Keep up the good work Juan!
Reminds me of the PSA 727 in San Diego when the crew saw the wrong Cessna and thought they had already passed.
I am a veteran and have been stationed at Fort Campbell ( Air Assault) two times. I have rode in the Huey's and Blackhawks both while Pilots were flying nap of the Earth (NOE) with night vision goggles. Always having a door seat, I would sometimes get a little nervous when it looked like we were no more than 10 ft above Tree top level.
The best I can remember there have been quite a few crashes from helicopters at Fort Campbell and from what I can remember they were usually due to night time flying with night vision goggles.
Do my mind, the controller didn't really make a "late" call to PAT. He had already advised them of traffic a full minute beforehand, immediately after clearing the CRJ to 33. PAT had at that time accepted visual separation, and the call when the conflict alarm went off was just to confirm that they did in fact have the other aircraft in sight. To me, this is an airspace issue - 30 metre separation is just not enough when both crews are in a high workload environment. They either need to close the Route 4 during northerly winds, or Route 4 needs to become an IFR only route so that controllers can provide spacing.
My thoughts are with everyone involved. The victims and their families, but also ATC, emergency workers, colleagues, witnesses and everyone else impacted by this traged. 😢
As always, thanks to Juan for having the best updates on UA-cam.
again, thanks, Juan . learning so many contributing factors from you. i am grateful for this.
Helicopter was not “hugging the E shore of the river”, and was flying well above the 200 ft ceiling. The other considerations must be investigated, but they did not respect the published constraints and thus intersected the RJ approach path.
Not a very robust system if it relies solely on the helicopter crew maintaining visual based separation in an environment where it is difficult to see the planes you are trying to stay separated from. Given the heavy helicopter traffic along these routes, I’m surprised this type of accident didn’t happen sooner on approaches to runway 33.
The Gold Standard of explanations.....thank you once again for your service and important input....
Relying on 100 feet of separation with airplanes approaching an airport seems like madness.
Thank you so much for the continued updates Juan!
The chopper was climbing and correcting his route towards the crj ? If he would have stayed below 200 and continued on course it would have been close but a miss for sure. And that chopper was cooking, whats the hurry, do they always fly that fast?
Thanks Juan.
Thanks for keeping us updated.
1) Those DCA controllers are super task saturated. They need more positions in the tower to deal with the chaos that is DCA airspace.
2) Those helo routes are hazardous and need to be altered OR circle to 33 needs to be turned off with helo traffic inbound.
If anyone is curious, ATC requests pilots do the circle to 33 in order to increase DCA’s ability to handle traffic. It’s an airport that is already too busy, and last year the $enate pu$hed through additional $lot$ at DCA, de$pite the FAA pu$hing back…I wonder why….
I agree that limiting aircraft to runway 1 when a helo is heading south on that route would have kept them apart.
Now, is it possible that the chopper thought the aircraft was heading for runway one since it’s the most common one?
Once again you provide details and information with out making it sensational. Plus you don’t look for someone to blame but just how things are. Thank you.
Boy, that Route 1 is an accident waiting to happen.
@@gordonhesse7200 It’s tough, but if the army guys had followed the rules and stayed below 200 ft- no collision.
Thanks for performing an important service to the public, especially on such a difficult day. Great explanation of the probable factors.
It is so helpful and educational to have an actual expert review the events and the data from these events as they become available. The only thing I can conclude was not involved in the Swiss Cheese model is DEI. My heart goes out to the families of those who lost their lives. There will be more to learn and I am confident you will find it here from Juan Browne.
Class bravo airspace of a major international airport with all the restrictions in DC is absolutely insane place to allow training missions.
@@TheNiteinjail Unless, of course, you need training in that sort of airspace…
From what I'm hearing on the web, the 🚁 was in a blind spot under the wing of the CRJ, as the plane was making his final turn (side step, dog leg, curve whatever it's called) to land on runway 33, so even if the pilots were on the same frequency as the helicopter and we're told to look out for it, they would not have been able to see it approach in time to make evasive climb away maneuvers and get some much needed distance between them.
ATC is responsible for separation at this point. The CRJ are responsible for remaining visual with the field and any preceding aircraft which there wasn't in this case.
Love your channel Juan. Thanks for adding so much detail as it becomes available.
ATC requires "the highest level of genius" Pay $135,000 with pay and retirement benefits being threatened. 24 controllers working this tower to keep it operating 24/7. ATC needs more resources not less.
Underfunded and understaffed..
@@JohnnyMotel99 In addition to that, the training is long and not transferable to other airports so they are either stuck in one place or have to revert to a trainee all over again if they want to go to a more desirable area. They are also doing swing shifts like an average factory worker which is hard on the body and mind.
It seems some people left last week....
@@mapicci Weren't they offered a buyout recently?
@@JohnnyMotel99 No no - more tax cuts are needed.
Not only is he too high, but the helo pilot is supposed to hug the eastern shoreline of the river, yet he inexplicably makes a 30 degree turn to the right as if he plans to cross the river. I believe the data points are accurate because you can see how smooth the turn is for 5432 as it goes in for landing.
A friend reminded me today that we’re normally told to hold at the tidal basin. Didn’t happen.
Absolutely excellent analysis..I’ve flown in/out of DCA hundreds of times over my 42 years at Northwest/Delta in the B727, A320, B757. I couldn’t add a single thing..well done sir.
Yet the investigation has been called for into DEI hiring policies of ATCs.
Another expert video Juan. Excellent discussion and accurate analysis of this terrible tragedy. Just heartbreaking. Thank you for what you do for us in the aviation and lay community.
As I said in my last post, the NVGs can be bad juju. "Beak to Beak" ... the RJ's landing light would definitely desensitize the goggles, and they will take some seconds after that light disappears to recover full sensitivity. As you mentioned, depth perception is an issue, but also they are seeing monochromatic (no color!!!), and you have to look UNDER the goggles to read your instruments. Maybe the training was to help maintain goggle currency. Our ops in law enforcement would not have both pilots on goggles in a busy airspace with lots of cultural lighting. NVG training would be treated like IFR training, you need a safety pilot with a full field of view and colors to see and avoid.
I was in the Army from 2002-2006. I almost crashed a humvee doing NVG training at like 20 mph. Depth perception was non existent.
@@the_bencredible True, my squad leader walked into a tree 3 times while walking under nods
Military helicopters are the same way, you do not have both pilots "under the hood" at the same time.
Great analysis. In addition to not maintaining altitude, the helicopter seems to be drifting away from the east edge of the river. Collision wouldn't have occurred if it had been hugging the east side of the river at 200 feet altitude. Now they need to figure out why that happened.
Its US military they can do whatever they like. just search 1998 Cavalese cable car crash disaster.
Helicopter clearly too high, irrespective.
If that height appears on ATC displays, it shoul presumably be reported as a violation. Has that happened before?
Well done Juan, as usual. It's interesting that we are able to get clear explanations of such situations faster then the regular news. Thanks
The heli was not only high, but was off course, not hugging the eastern edge of the Potomac.
Thank you, Juan. Great work, as usual. RIP to all involved in this horrible accident.
regardless of which plane they thought they saw, you mention they should have stayed under 200ft right?
Correct and over the bank of the river.
Thank you for your excellent update report of this terrible accident.
I simply cannot believe in airspace this busy the heli was approved for own visual separation. In the dark.
Too many variables, tolerances are too tight. A recipe for disaster.
In looking at the only footage of the crash we have been shown, you can clearly see that the CRJ is descending, but it also appears that the Blackhawk is also climbing. The ADSB data seems to show this as well. Why was the helo climbing ?
Thank you once again for superb coverage!! It is always a pleasure watching these videos. Also, Victor at VASAviation is my SECOND favorite channel!!!
Where do you get your banjo music, though?
My heartfelt condolences for the families of the departed souls. I pray for them.
Gracias Juan! Sharp as usual.
As always, Juan, your channel is very informative. In my opinion based on information so far, the second time the ATC controller radioed PAT25 regarding having the CRJ in sight should have instead been an instruction to halt or turn away rather than relying on PAT25’s “see-and-avoid”. ATC has to visualize everything in 3D. Clearly, the CRJ is flying a descending and banking left turn on short final with clearance to land. I have serious doubts the crew of the CRJ ever saw PAT25 as they were descending from a higher altitude and there belly with the left bank angle created a huge blind spot. Then, to make matters worse, PAT25 began climbing above the 200’ restriction. So, continuing with my opinion, I feel there is a shared responsibility between PAT25 and the ATC controller for this tragedy. May the victims rest in peace and prayers for all their surviving loved ones.
this accident has a lot in common with the PSA collision in San Diego in the 70s.
Thanks for the update Juan. Air traffic control staffing at the time of the crash is being reported as "not normal"...Possibly another hole in the swiss cheese that will need to be investigated.
Big question is, "Why did the helo *_turn right_* / west into the CRJ?" Were they turning right onto helicopter Route 6 to Return to Base at Davison AAF? We need ATC comms earlier in the tape than Victor has published to know what the helicopter's flight path was going to be at and beyond DCA.
Fantastic coverage, as always!
Thank you so much for this break down. I am a super fan of your channel. This was very informative and horrific at the same time. MR. Brown You are the best thanks again.
Completely sad and pathetic is this tragedy has been politicized by the constant critics of big government.
Very solid analysis. Great job Juan. You probally made this before news they were short a controller. As most accident usually a compliation of minor errors creating the environment.
My experience flying military single place jets (1970 to 1998) and using UHF, our towers (and maybe approach) had a retransmit facility so that we pilots heard both UHF and VHF transmissions. It worked well for situational awareness.
Thank you Juan. Great report as usual.
I've been waiting, patiently, for this post.
Thank you, Sir!
Many military helicopters in the DC area do NOT use ADS-B, so no TCAS warnings, even without climb/descend commands.
It won't work below 1000 ft.
You don't need ADS-B for TCAS.
TCAS uses mode c and mode s transponders, and is not dependent on ads b. TCAS was in use well before the implementation of ads b.
In this busy air space should be mandatory that they have ADSb on. Regardless.
Disabled below 1000ft anyway
Thanks Juan. I appreciate the time you put into these. Best information out there.
That happened so fast in the end. I can't imagine watching the 2 radar blips merge both horizontally and vertically and giving no overriding instructions to the either aircraft while the "collision alarm" is also going off. Way too much confidence in the PAT 25 crew. I'm going to guess that this alarm is going off all the time during helo ops and is routinely ignored by controllers. Human Factors : norms and complacency on display IMO.
03:05 what hes talking about there is CBDR constant bearing , Decreasing range. Basically, neither had any visible reference points, particularly at night and going nose to nose.
Just watched your first video where you said you would give updates later and I looked to see if there were any and here one is posted just 2 min ago!