Personally the biggest problem with sc2 is the fast game speed, brood war is a much slower game and allows a lot more time for micro, which is far more interesting to watch as a viewer and as a player.
I'm always saying, SC2 is like Need for Speed on 16x speed. With this speed all the strategy elements go out the window. It's both about how explosive the economy is as well as how quickly units die, 10x the army size in SC2 compared to BW, yet the fight is only 1/10th in length.
this is why I always preferred wc3 over sc2, coming back to warcraft 3 after just a year of starcraft 2. I did play alot of brood war in the day, but mainly the customs saving racoon city, missle wars. golem wars, zone control, cats & mouse
@@Boooolin Some times it makes me sad that in the west 99.999% of people played brood war totally casually and often as a kid to then just move on to other games and when I hear influencers talking I always notice that they've never appreciated the competitive side of BW as they seem to have just stumbled upon the "clunky mechanics" and pathing when BW got remastered
It is so nice that Blizzard realized that they didn’t need to touch Starcraft 1 at all and the remaster was all about graphics. But for us Warcraft 3 players…
I agree with you and I would also add that free units were very damaging to the overall enjoyment of the game as an spectator and as a player. Swarm Hosts and broodlords were a fucking disaster.
Yup! Super anti-climactic from a viewers perspective to see two armies power up for 15 minutes... and then the fate of the game is decided in less than 5 seconds due to the death balls colliding and one beating the other. The end.
not to mention cheesy and gimmicky unit design and mechanics like Teleporting BC's Mass Recall, Warp ins, Oracles, Widow Mines , Liberators. Boring afk unit design Roaches Collossus, VoidRays, Corruptors, Brood Lords etc
Deathballs are a symptom of the SC2 engine being too good at pathfinding. Brood War has issues at the opposite end of the spectrum where units get stuck or have trouble going through ramps (cough Dragoon cough), so if you're making a new RTS game, there has to be a delicate balance between the two.
@@vvvvvv9205 E-sports will allow skill building in a genre, but yeah...If you gotta keep on switching games like you would switch up other jobs...Doesnt make much sense lol
Well any game will die eventually, unless its football or basketball maybe. I am glad that I did pretty much abandeon the idea of becoming a sc2 professional in 2016 as it too much time, and the risk of all that knowledge for nothing is very high. I much rahter enjoyed playing my guitar and piano and learning things that cannot be taken by a greedy company in a minute. I think way more people should realize this, that there are some skills, for example also softwarewhise, once its gone the knowledge is wasted time unfortunatly. The overlaying principles are the important thing. But what Starcraft 2 teached me was the importance of macros, and fast typing which helped me with other stuff, too, but every loss felt much more sour than any win I got, so I only recently played it on occation, and realise why I stopped it alltogether. Its bad for the nerves! It causes anger for no proper reason, and I don't want to be that person anymore. And its probably how many former players feel. The game can piss you off with ludricrous little mistakes, that ruin your day. I much rather not spend too much time of my life there anymore.
@@andrerocka8135 Any scrub zerg with SUFFICIENT APM (important detail) can be taught how to max out at 10 min. Learning how to deal with harrass, scout for all possible all ins is a DIFFERENT MATTER but ''doing a build''/macroing is NOT ROCKETSCIENCE.
While I love broodwar dearly I think you understated just how much on an anomaly broodwar is. There are plenty of other RTSes of the era that never got updates and never became esports. Brood war itself is alive today but struggles beyond South Korea's borders. I think the success of broodwar also begs another question that the next gen of RTS is trying to answer: is it possible to make a game as competitively beautiful as broodwar in the 2020s without it just getting instantly ditched by non-competitive players?
This is a very good point. Personally I think it's possible but it will never be made and I'll explain my reasoning. I think you needed to have been active during SC1's release and peak to understand the cultural differences and how that affects everything. RTS games existed before, so why is brood war such an anomaly? It's the timing and simplicity to understand it visually at it's basic elements. For most people, when they start going first on the internet and became proficient at it, this was the time Brood War was being introduced. There were other online games, but this was the new one. It wasn't just in Korea, it was everywhere, countries were pushing for computer literacy, even tho Korea did push esports where other countries did not. This was an exciting time where new tech came fast and games were exponentially getting better and better, but games weren't carbon copies of each other, genres were being invented, so everyone and their mom wanted to try this new title. Turns out this new title offered the possibility of infinite growth as a player which is great, but more so, there weren't really any other rts that competed with it at the time, most others felt old or had some issues. I remember RA2 came close to it, but it was dismissed after a bit. Community sense was also tighter back then, you weren't just randoms on the internet, you felt a connection because interactions were still unique. This lead to an interesting thing most ppl disregard. Starcraft was the first digital RTS game where people invested themselves in. If you notice, quake is still alive as well, that was the first FPS people invested in. Tetris is another game that is still going strong. Because there was such a big gap and infinite ceilings in these games plus no updates, people had the time and reasons to get invested. This changed when internet grew. Now you have tons of options so there's less reason to invest in something cause something else is always right around the corner, and that something is almost always more accessible, and easier to succeed at, why would you try your hand at a harder, more complex game in a niche genre? People are always waiting for that next big thing, with very few actually dedicating to each title, those that do, usually end up being goats for the entirety of the game's lifecycle (faker is a good example). It's stale. Updates are very common, so optimizing something just for it to get changed feels bad. It's funny, as developers we are told to always reward player investment, yet when it comes to competitive games, we do the exact opposite. There's very few incentives for developers to make such a game, there's a lot that can go wrong even if the game is designed the right way. For example stormgate might be ditched for it's art direction, even if it's perfect gameplay wise. And there's very few incentives for new gamers to invest themselves that way into any game for that matter. The reason I say it's possible is that on paper such game can be made, even today. Moba's proved it can happen again. That being said, it has to be a passion project, league was a passion project, so I don't think any of the newer RTS are it, Stormgate can be it, but I think they dropped the ball in various things, melee combat being the focus was a mistake, the art direction, I just can't see it but happy to be proven wrong. If it's not such project, there will always be meddling sadly. The reason I say this will never happen is just the probability, it can go wrong with very simple things, and it's a hard genre to develop. I came to this conclusion myself when trying my hand at the genre, you can't use your standard coding in regular engines because it doesn't scale well, same with networking, there's a lot of community features to be made, balance is a nightmare etc. I can code, but I'm basically an artist, so for a lot of people aligned with the mindset of taking that challenge there's also technical limitations here. And again, if you have the budget, it's no longer a passion project, it will be meddled with, and therefore fail miserably most likely. This is not exclusive to the genre or even games in general, at GDC I see really cool projects every year, devs that have the right mindset, but they just don't have the background, so they aren't getting funded (worth noting that we devs fund eachother on these cases as well, but this is not enough). Eventually I find them after 5-6 years, now they have the background but lost the vision. We're in this endless loop where the community, devs, and publishers only fund people with proper backgrounds or connections (the new trend is "devs that developed this old game at a popular studio that is now shit"), but those are the ones without vision, and we're gromming the ones that are visionaries into people that are not. Once in a few years some genius with insane passion comes out, but it's no longer the 90's where these people with passion didn't have many obstacles, they could make their games and compete with everyone without the extreme imbalance there is today due to advertising, legal blocks, getting sued by random people with rights looking to snipe indies, etc. So it's a systematic problem that doesn't let these games get created is what I'm trying to say here. Any dev smart enough to make such a title will be smart enough to realize it's not worth trying or investing in it and will pivot to another genre. Sry for the wall of text! OOPS.
Problem is pro players arent' who needs to be making those decisions...they continue to let the game be fundamentally broken with overpowered queens...while it doesn't matter much for the average player the cost efficiency and what it is capable of is far too good for one unit and is just getting straight up abused by Serral, Dark, Reynor for over 5 years now.
@@antearesgamerso the games broken because you cant micro like serral and reynor? For 95% of the players in this game queens arent fighting units. Its a macro unit. It has a role as an early game anti air role but its sooo easy for them to die. If you're loosing games because of queens, youre definitely doing something wrong fam.
@@Gol_D_Rog3r i always knew gol d roger was a brood war player Dont get mad at rookies, they have still a lot to learn You should cherish their interest
Give an example where a pro BW player is outsmarting the S rank. Mechanics and speed over insight in BW, chess has no dexterity factor like that (and is 100% information game).
This vid happened to get re-reccomended and I happened to see this comment: I think I was saying the elo numbers are similar in terms of skill for both games. Not that the elo measures the same skills. The example I gave is 2750 approaching pro in both games. If you want to see some examples watch any Artosis vs Snow games.
@@IYPITWLA 2750 elo absolutely cannot "you" with a 2400 or even a 2100 in most cases. Anything 2000 requires tight execution and the loser is usually whomever makes the first mistake.
@@sterlingcampbell2116 Elo is calibrated so that a 400 pt difference means 90% chance of victory. Go back and watch Magnus 2830 take over a losing position and beat a 2430 while drunk, or in BW the game where Snow destroys RT with mass Scouts. Those games showcase very similar differences in skill to the originally stated example, and the weaker player doesn't ever really have a chance to win. Those "almost Master" or "bottom of S rank" 2000-2100 players are really good, but they would in reality have less than a 1% chance to beat those 2750 best in the world caliber players. I actually really stand by that original statement unless you can give some examples to sway my mind. Your opinion simply isn't enough.
Broodwar is perfect. You can't top it. The 2d graphics work, the gameplay is balanced and almost entirely up to the players skill level. It's just the best game ever.
Reminds me of Smash Melee. These two games have A LOT in common. There are things we can say are technically just bad, like some StarCraft unit pathing/collision (idk the exact phrasing for this but I hope it’s correct) and Melee stage issues and some characters being literally incomplete. But they’re just the pinnacle of competition and player expression
Here's the problem: If a game is perfect, in a developer's perspective, its frustrating if you want to come up with better ideas for a sequel. You can't catch the same lighting in a bottle the second time around. And it's not counting the structural changes in the company behind the game.
12:20 "Any diamond+ player can hit a build almost to perfection, with very little difference between their macro and the macro as a professional player." So as a high Diamond Terran player in LotV this just isn't true! Earlier you said that you decided to skip Legacy all together, so maybe you just don't know/ remember but there is indeed a noticeable difference between pro macro and Diamond macro. I was lower level during HotS and WoL as I was literally a child, so I don't know- maybe back then the difference seemed less pronounced.
I've been Diamond tier 1 with protoss and terran, and low GM with Zerg in LotV, and I second this. There is a fat difference between even low master and low gm macro. The gap is getting smaller every year, but it's still obvious to the trained eye. Also, while Starcraft 2 micro is way easier than brood war, the fact that units clump every time you move them forces you to split against any kind of aoe, which the game has in abundance.
I disagree with this. If bw was released today, I don't think it would be alive. The fanbase/culture from korea is what keeps bw alive today - there's a reason it isn't 'alive' outside of korea. imo games can be incredibly difficult without having artificial difficulty barriers using bad pathing/limited control groups - see chess. Someone who plays chess for 10 years will still most likely never be able to touch a chess GM. The real problem with sc2 is the deathballs, which was partially fixed in 2014, too late for the game to recover. Life vs. Taeja imo was sc2 at near perfection. Small groups of ling bane fighting small groups of marine widowmine with tons of micro.
Certainly nostalgia is a main factor for the continued interest in BW. I'd be interested in knowing what the average age of people in this comment section is, I'd guess over 30. Not saying BW is a bad game, it's just that the community has an unhealthy habit of pretending it's objectively the best. You're allowed to like one game more than another, doesn't mean the other one is bad, or that it's fan base is stupid or something. The existence and continued success of SC2 seems to torment BW players, and they seem to think about it a lot and make videos like this.
Brood war IS objectively the best. The unintentional amount of depth the game has is what sets it apart from any other RTS ever. The game was made in a way in which allowed users to run wild with strategies and gameplay itsself. Your play potential, based on so many diff factors, is the closest to as infinite as any game can be. And it truly is the most balanced game, because of the strategic possibilities. Brood War is the best game ever made, and this isnt just nostalgia talking. Of course brood war wouldnt do as good if it came out today, just look at it. None of this generation would give it a chance. And many ppl wouldnt even back then...this game truly exercises the noodle.
@@nunyabizwacks6711 "objectively the best" lmao you can't make this up. This is literally the definition of subjective opinion, and exactly what I'm talking about in my comment above. Also, it's well known that the game is unbalanced, with a 53% win rate in TvP (compared to SC2, in which TvP is 50.19% over the last 10 weeks). Definitely not "truly the most balanced game", you absolutely have rose-tinted glasses from nostalgia.
It's also worth pointing out that starcraft was made during a period of fiercely competitive game development. It looked a lot more like warcraft 2 originally, flat and not isometric. However at a game convention, another game, I forget its name, looked absolutely stunning and the developers lied and said it was all rendered in game (not pre-rendered). This got the starcraft team shook and they realized they needed to push the envelope further. They were a team fighting for every scrap. Whereas starcraft 2 was made by a comfortably established corporation.
@@drygordspellweaver8761 Only after they redid the graphics. They had original graphics, presented at a trade show and were floored by other games just looking much better and going back to the design board.
@@Oblivionm24 Developers have no idea how to nurture a competitive scene. Even Riot with LoL stumbled upon the biggest game in the world but have mismanaged it into a rapid decline in the West particularly. Even Korean league was far better off when it was still with OGN vs the LCK system Riot implemented. Developers are too greedy and ego-driven to let third parties make their esports better. Valve have their faults and are by no means perfect, but at least with CS and I assume DotA 2 they mostly allow companies to run league and tournaments and only get involved when they have to.
considering the numbers of people involved, if starcraft 2 is dying then bw is already dead. it’s probably mostly nostalgia that keeps people playing bw and also the fact that even with all the problems and annoying things you mentioned, it’s a much simpler game than sc2, with way less units, so it’s more manageable strategically. Sc2 now is a mess, there just too much stuff which they felt they should put in there so people would buy the expansions. I’ll never believe that qol improvements made the game worse somehow, it’s not that, that’s just old gamers’ way of yelling “back in my days!”
The best example I have to refute this is what I said about unit collision in BW vs SC2. Yes its harder to move the units and QOL improvements in SC2 basically made this a non issue, but in BW you have to move things intentionally and skillfully to get surrounds or slip by enemy units. It's a way that good players can distinguish themselves from mediocre players in a huge way.
@@SaiyanKCM I get that having that perfect pathing in sc2 might take some fun out of the game, but the first thing I remember from BW is how much I hated the way units got stuck on the ramps, and having seen some recent videos I can see that people get mad at that still to this day. Also the fact that you have to put every worker to mine every time is just a chore, I get that best players can do it better and get an advantage, but there's many other interesting things good players can do to get the edge. Those things are just wrong to me and bw could be a much better game with just some small fixes
@@SaiyanKCM You forget the majority of players are not in the pro scene, and don't give two f's about tournaments and completive play. They are casual. Path finding won the casuals. So you may hate it, it may indeed not work well in competitive play, but for me it was good move toward winning the casuals. That being said, there are many flaws for the casual players too. As SC1 BW casual, I could easily make my own maps. In SC2, the editor was insanely complex to work with. The artificial balance with unit mechanics being ruined, ruin it for me as casual too. Maybe SCII should have tournament mods where unit group selection is limited. Path finding? No idea if that can be altered too :D.
Good for them, I hope SC2 gets better with community led balance patches from now on. I agree that a lot of players switched over to SC2 for the paycheck and they also thought the game was going to be better. After burning out in SC2 a of korean pros have come back to BW though and I don't think it's just nostalgia.
I remember Day9 saying back during the beta that "obviously eventually they'll fix deathballs".......... In other news, dude you deserve so many more subs this is such a great video.
Blizzard was hiring me as a lead designer until they went woke and discriminate bs women and religions. I helped their design team with War3 The Frozen Throne. The problem is simple and I told em day one: Impenetrable rush defense of terran sealed buildings, zerg queen(which can 1:1 a battlecuiser) and nexus cannons was too much. If you can't harass their workers, you can't stop their tech or expand... So many terrans play like the famous caster Nathanias and just expand the board with the goal of a 1.3 hour win of getting one more mineral patch than their enemy. Terrible terribly designed game. I would have never shipped the pile of crap that is sc2 1v1. This is the product of discriminatory hiring, you don't get the best people working. Anytime you hear inclusion, it means,"We ain't hiring ya Christian fellers." Totally backwards, and not the future MLK Jr fought for.
@@iamLI3 no probs, no one on Earth has played/designed/coded more than me in the history of mankind, over 150,000 hrs and counting, yet Big Tech so busy doing 1984 George Orwell corruption of controlling society by surveillance, honest people such as myself get excluded in the name on inclusion... Trust me when I say love is the way, hold onto your love and live forever... The spirit of love came as a man and they rejected him in his day instead of allowing him a rightful place in society. When you know society is corrupt, you roll with it, but corrupt society is why sc2 sucked so bad. I'd never let that crap be shipped on my watch. Peace.
I would also like to add that everything from Broodwar / SC vanilla actually came from Warcraft 2. Storm came from the Deathknight and death n decay ability. Infested terrans came from sappers. Oberserver from flying machine. Seige tank from Catipult. And even the Zerg hatch liar hive tech from the Townhall keep castle in Warcraft 2. It literally was all from Warcraft and that's why people were calling the game warcraft in space.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 yeah that's true. It looked almost exactly the same as warcraft color wise lol. But all the nits were modeled off of warcraft 2 units as well.
People have been saying SC2 is dying for 7 years, but it’s still going strong, with or without much Blizzard support. Brood War is completely different though, with its much smaller scale and much much slower production. It doesn’t require as much balance. It doesn’t make it better or worst, just different. Your opinion is still valid, but it is just an opinion, because most competitive StarCraft players do prefer SC2 and ask for balance changes to keep the game fresh and allow for more strategies needing to be developed. There still is a lot of money being made on SC2 by pros, so I disagree with your comments there. There are so many tournaments still. You can watch a new professional game at least 3 times a week, which is a lot for a game this old. I also disagree that the pathing made the game less difficult at a high level. Again, it’s just different. Professionals aren’t using F2 to select their whole army. They also need to take into account the smooth pathing, to protect their mineral lines. It’s just as difficult at a high level as it is in Brood War. I completely agree that the community patching is going to be a good thing.
There's just something about Broodwar that keeps me coming back again and again. The armies and swarms clashing against each other is really fun. For SC2, it's more like a gang war. Too few units and way too bright like every unit has been sprayed with a glossy finish.
The game engine in SC2 is a cartoony offshoot of world of Warcraft. SC- had excellent pixel sprite animations that were made to look 2.5d and textured. The coding was better- written in C instead of object oriented garbage. It all makes a difference.
@@drygordspellweaver8761 how is the game being coded using object oriented programming principles make any difference?? i dont see sc2 having perfomance issues, also C supports certain object-oriented programming principles and features, are you just using buzzwords?
@@drygordspellweaver8761 how does using C or C++ make any difference? i dont see sc2 suffering from performance issues, are you just using buzzwords? also C supports certain object-oriented programming principles and features
@@drygordspellweaver8761I've never seen glitches in sc2 I think everyone in these comments just want to hop on whatever bandwagon is currently trending instead of thinking for themselves
@@OriginallyG 0 people in this thread have commented about glitches/bugs, code can be declared not optimal without it being buggy. That's a big leap to make lol.
Everything presented in this video is subjective, and not backed up by actual numbers. In 2022, Sc2 had more than 4x the prize money as brood war, hardly a "dead game" compared to brood war. This video is chock full of FEELINGS; you feel this way or that about sc2. Yeah, a few people went back to brood war, but sc2 still has a way higher amount of actual support, backed by those REAL numbers, regardless of the way you may feel about it. All this video proves is that what I call the "Brood War Supremacy Complex" is still thriving in the brood war community, and the echo chamber in this comment section is evidence enough of that. Sc2 and Brood war are very different games, and just because you like one more doesn't make the other bad or a "dead game".
that is plain wrong. If you count daily proleagues, prize pool is much bigger for BW plus donations, being above 10 million vs 2 million saudi blood money. On top of that, BW viewership is 16 times higher than sc2. I get that you braindead sc2 noobs dont even include korea in the numbers for some retarded reason only you fucks know
It seems like the things that make Brood War a fantastic multiplayer game are some of the same things that make single player and casual play way better in SC2. As someone who has no hope of reaching master level micro, and no intention to spend 100s of hours learning it, being able to smoothly control the game makes SC2 so, so much more approachable and enjoyable.
I kinda felt the opposite. I always loved multiplayer in SC2 because I felt like it was more accessible, and I could look up builds/guides etc. and be able to be feel like I was actually carrying them out. On the other hand, I found the campaign of StarCraft 1 to be a lot more enjoyable because there is more leeway playing against the computer than a skilled opponent.
@@Hulavuta SC2 story is such utter garbage, it makes Disney Star Wars look like Shakepeare level writing. It is utterly pathetic and moronic. As good as the engine is programmed, however utterly unusable for RTS. However good the cinematics are. As well as the campaign missions. That's how bad both the story and the core gameplay of SC2 are.
When we played SC back in 1998, no one told us we had to study 100s of hours before we could play. That's the difference. The idea that the entire player base should play like Koreans. So they gutted the game to make everyone feel like playing SC2 was like driving a race car. It utterly gutted the gameplay. Instead of making RTS more fun, they tried to remove RTS from SC2 by making it a mindgame platform.
@@Prometheus4096 I agree, SC2 story is perhaps the worst thing ever written, made worse because it was such an utter betrayal of everything that came before it. It made me finally understand how people who grew up with the original Star Wars felt when the prequels came out. As I've been getting back into the franchise this year, I do find myself playing SC1 far more often than 2. I only wish there was a larger playerbase because the only people playing multiplayer are very good, as opposed to SC2 where there is still a wide variety of player skill.
Rebalancing a game to "Keep it fresh" often just irritates people. It is why people keep going back to classic games that don't receive any kind of updates beyond compatibility patches. People are able to become familiar with the game and learn to know what to expect from a given action. Think of it like a grocery store. If every 1 to 2 months they go through and move placement of items around, you as a consumer are forced to hunt around or to stop one of the staffers who probably doesn't know the new location either. Given that I work in such a retail environment and our planograms are every 2 to 4 months, customers get frustrated, staff get frustrated because things are constantly changing. And in the case of grocery it is some times the items being moved literally moved 6 feet or 1 shelf slot. Blizzard can't balance to save its life because they always balance just to screw with people. Also it helps that SC2 single player includes a bunch of units and strategies you can't actually use in Multiplayer because said units are single player exclusive. As opposed to single player having the same options as the multiplayer. Additionally they created a bunch of really cool units that you can't use in MP. Like what? o.O
Yeah totally, what a well thought out point you made. That's why almost every single competitive game on steams top 10 such as CS, PUBG, and DotA never gets rebalanced EVER. Meanwhile look at brood wars HUGE player base outside of South Korea, almost a few thousand whole players!! So many comments here just circlejerking pretending that broodwar is something more than it is, a great 20 year old game, that is past its prime, but is still mainstream due to Koreas difficulty in breaking out in most esports
The sound design of each unit in SC1 is so good, which is one of the reasons why I always come back to it. Just love the feeling of units attacking each other and even their death sounds are awesome. SC2 just sounds dry like overcooked food. So many original cast didn't return for SC2 is a huge blow. I still haven't finished LotV and Nova campaigns after so many years because of this, plus the plot is ridiculous which most people felt the same way as me from what I read online.
i agree, the plot is realy bad, the ending is worse, with god like creatures and beams. the good think that it has going on was mission design, that was superb in my opinion.
Saying that it's better for a game to be cumbersome to play rather than intuitive to play is an insane take. You can have difficulty without it feeling like the game is actively fighting your commands. I say this as someone who loves both BW and SC2
Well difficulty barrier is a key source of awe created in sports. Imagine if the rim of a basketball was so low or large that anyone could dunk or score from distance, would basketball playing look as awesome as it is? Same for SC1. We feel shocked at plays,because we know how difficult it is for a human to pull out such skills
Thank you for making people realize the biggest mistake Blizzard did to ruin Starcraft 2 is their narrow dictatorial views. Every time players make a different play style rather than their intended purposes, they just stepped in and making changes to force players to play according to their view.
Riot does this with LoL as well - what's wrong with tank Ekko or fizz, or AP yi? or support mid with JG? nothing, it could be balanced to 50% win rate - but Riot didn't think it was the "correct" way to play it.
Wow Saiyan, from kind of an obscure guy doing the KCM material (which we all thank you for!) to this kind of content, you have quickly become an absolute staple in the BW community. This is on another level and has reach and meaning beyond just the individual matches you put out. I'm happy for you, and honestly inspired by your path. Thanks also for the reminder of what this game means for all of us. I've gotten a bit away from it recently, but it seems like I can never get away from it completely. I think, apart from the hands-off approach that Blizzard took with BW, this game really was kind of a "perfect storm". And I think for a lot of us it's also a reminder of our childhood and more innocent days. I imagine for kids who played basketball or something (which I did but sucked at), the game of basketball will always hold a special place in their heart. For us, that game is Brood War. And who knows? Perhaps more generations will be inspired. You're leading the way with your content. Congratulations and thank you.
Sorry but this just isn’t very accurate. Tasteless and Artosis are the only casters from sc2 out of the dozens that have gone back to brood war. Not a lot of pro gamers have either. Just the ones that were successful in BW that moved on to sc2 then moved back. The vast majority of sc2 progamers didn’t go back to BW. The large BW resurgence was mostly just in Korea which makes up a very small percentage of the overall player base. Sc2 still has more viewers and higher prize pools. Both are old games at this point and both have a solid base of players and viewers. I grew up playing BW, I remember my first game against another person dialing up my brother at our neighbor’s house. I played BW for over a decade until sc2 came out. Even avoided Warcraft 3 because I like BW much better. But I didn’t go back to BW after sc2 came out. Same with several other people I played BW with. For every person that went back to BW there are many more that didn’t.
I don't understand why Blizz didn't just listen to the pros more. While build order wins are a huge issue (something pros have complained about for fucking ever!!), we still get some incredible matches in SC2. This gives me faith the skill ceiling could be increased/randomness decreased with not too many tweaks. I mean why didn't Blizz just add a 15-20% chance of a high ground miss? Pros were calling for that for YEARS and I guess they got word Blizz wasn't going to change that so they stopped? And why did it take Blizz so long to make the maps bigger when ZvT was completely unplayable on those rush maps? These issues that took Blizz like 5-6 GSL seasons to fix (or not fix at all) could have been corrected by the community in like 2 weeks lmao. It was so frustrating to watch and honestly awkward for the audience and casters. We were robbed of amazing matches due to build order auto wins and you could feel through the stream how disapponted everyone was in this shit game lol. You look at what Dota 2, League and CS:GO have done for their pro scenes and by comparison you'd think SC2 was managed by a 5 man indie dev team. Very disappointing but I still love SC2 and have faith in the community and the first patch looks promising.
This video is highly skewed. StarCraft 2 is a fun game and I play/played it way more than I did Broodwar. Alas it’s very subjective and I think many of these people going back to it are doing it because they fell in love with it back in the day where as they suck with sc2 for the paycheck and window of success. There are casters and players still sticking with sc2 because they love it, like Harstem.
Back in 2004, Ever OSL semi-finals. Boxer perfected the unstoppable bunker rush and wiped 3-0 a distraught Yellow (z). Terran players started to make bunker rush on the ladder, crushed zergs and it looked broken. How Blizzard reacted? No, they didnt removed the bunker from the game, they didnt double its cost, gave zerg a hard-counter units that would nullify it. They let zerg players figured out by themselves. And zergs did learn how to counter it, with proper micro and tactics. It didnt canceled the bunker rush strategy from the game tho, and 23 years later, we still see it employed in progames. Whenever you see a bunker rush incoming, a 4 pool, a reaver build and so on, you know you are gonna watch something exciting, decisive cause the result will depends on players micro and tactics. Now back in WoL era. Terran invented the reaper rush against zerg, crushed them in tournaments and reapers rush looked, just like the bunker rush in 2004, broken. Forcing SC2 to be the new best e-sport, Blizzard had the brillant idea to...NULLIFY the reaper from the game. Nice! So up to this day, reaper are just now a gimmick unit, making the same boring routine every game against a queen, and you know that nothing will happen with it. Will the reaper kill 1 or 2 lings before it dies? Maybe a drone? But look at the time! we are already in late-game, time to watch death-balls endlessely dodging each other on a A-moving 1-hotkey movement, until someone get a lucky good angle and spam spells.
Opening made me nostalgic, I remember being 12-13 and watching that sick teaser for SC 2 and looking forward to it for so many months, crazy how long its been now.
IMHO it's just one very small tweak that made major changes that increased the need for constant balance changes.. changing the base time to kill for units. Stuff just dies a lot faster on SC2 vs SC1. It looks great for those massive turn arounds and faster in game beats but it makes it terrible to play when your units just melt in seconds. And if everything dies too fast you need to tweak a lot of stuff to make sure everything is "balanced" The original SC balance was a counter to a unit would survive longer vs what they counter. (ie. marines whilst having less HP would work well against Dragoon since they would survive much longer) vs SC2 Banelings (b4 "balance" anyway) would melt a batch of marines instantly. The focus on being able to kill something faster vs lasting longer completely changes your meta... survival means you have more utility being able to be more flexible on your forces being able to macro/micro units to allow an army to survive. Just look at how much faster a unit dies when countered... vs BW units being able to back off and reorganise.
This makes more way sense than people whining about how improved pathing finding ruined it. Age of Empires 2 pathfinding was really good in comparison and it only came out a YEAR later. Been playing it's official Star Wars mod for 2 decades now.
Hi, SC2 master league dude here. Watching Broodwar, especially ASL, is a great great joy for me, due to its legacy, depth and skill. I just wanna say that SC2 is a way faster game, more macro oriented, all the history of SC2 might be desribed with the timings of the expands, getting earlier and earlier. It is very intensive in terms of fights/connections. Probably was made to be like that to test the physical abilities of the progamers to react on time. So, I would not grave SC2, I bet the long love, history and community are gonna stay for the rest of our lives.
I am a Korean but I must disagree some of points mentioned here. If QOL messes playability of a game, it means it needs to be perished, and that is why RTS is meeting its twilight now.
To add, the pathing in BW feels much more realistic that SC2. you issue a command to marines in BW and they move together like a very well organized group. Sure some lag behind or get stuck on each other, but that is actually how real things would move. In SC2 you issue a move command to 40 marines and they all instantly hive-mind move in exact unison and perfect spacing and pathing. A group of 50 lings in BW gets bogged down by each other because each unit is an individual, but all 50 lings in SC2 know the exact location of every other ling and the exact pathing every single other ling will use. SC2 feels like you are watching a computer move your units instead of you moving them yourself, because it is the computer that is doing most of the actual movement of units.
Units in sc2 move in formation the same way as brood war units (magic boxing). But because there's no limit on how many units you can control, you're more likely to have units that are spread out and in those cases the units don't move in formation. I think this is among the important benefits of a selection limit, because the game looks and feels better when units move in formation.
@@neonmarblerust Not quite true, if you attack move 12 lings in either game to a group of 4 marines, the BW lings will bump into each other and each ling will be calculating its pathing, which will result in a very imperfect surround. In SC2 the game calculates how the lings as a group should surround and moves each zergling relative to the rest of the lings to get a very streamlined surround.
@@nuclearscarab Yes, sc2 uses boids/flocking to handle unit-unit interactions, and I agree it can look unnatural. I'm just adding that because of the 12 unit-selection limit, when players move groups of units in BW they're more likely to use formation style movement, which looks and feels better. Also, as you point out, in sc2 large groups start moving together all at once. But in BW, that command has to be split up, and so they start moving in chunks.
@@neonmarblerust That's not true, SC2 units bunch up, even in on 12 selection or less. units do not path around eachother, you can test this with non-hostile units with "pushable" turned off in the editor, the units try as they might to bunch up but get confused and start spinning around. I know this, because I've modded the ever loving crap out of SC2 to try and get it as close to SC1 as I could, dozens of times and without doing some weird wacky workarounds (like having invisible neutral non-pushable broodlings spawn repeatedly) units no matter how few will clump together like a blood clot. SC1 units tend to spread out as they manuever the map, even flat areas, SC2 units move through eachother like water, it's bad game design that leads to really volatile gameplay where positioning takes a back seat to FPS style twitch reflexes.
And now just recently we got news a SC3 is in the pipe. It only took 2 more future RTS(Stormgate, Zero Space) threatening to overtake the playerbase for them to move.
Difficulty in simplicity will almost always be better than difficulty in complexity. The clunkyness of SC may raise the skill ceiling, but that doesn't mean it's something good. I wouldn't even say that the lack of clunkiness lowers the skill ceiling in Sc2, I'd say it raises the skill flooring. There's a reason chess is more popular than 5D chess, and regular chess has plenty of strategies to make every game unique. I also wouldn't say SC2 is dying, 80% of everyone is just playing UGC or coop stuff, just like how everyone plays UGC maps in Brood War.
I've been saying it for years, the constant updating killed SC2, especially for casual viewers, which is where sports really make their money. As someone who doesn't play the game, just watches, the constant changes were impossible to keep up with and I still don't know hardly what is going on when I watch a match.
IMO because everything was so lethal, balance was basically balanced on a tightrope. A bit too much leeway in one direction and a good player can exploit it to wreck everyone's day. While BW is a lot more lossy since people are messing up constantly all the time anyways.
So many subjective opinions being thrown around as objective facts in this comment section. Nothing killed SC2 because it is still alive and thriving, despite what you may believe/want to be true. SC2 still has 2-3 times the annual prize pool as BW. I'd be interested in seeing your data that backs up your statement that casual viewers don't like SC2 besides your one personal anecdote. If we're throwing around personal anecdotes, here's mine: as a casual viewer I prefer SC2 because I can more easily understand what is happening on screen, and find it easier to understand why a player won or lost.
@@space_orphan The constant updates are what makes the game unwatchable. As someone who has sunk 100 hours into the game, I don't know if 8 roaches will 'currently' beat a set number of marines.
Brilliant video, perfectly describes what makes brood war a far superior game to SC2. Allowing the scene to mature organically and balancing with maps has created a far more interesting pro scene than anything a modern esport type game could ever produce.
I disagree on the "anything a modern esport type game could ever produce", and AoE2 is proof that devs can balance units consistently and still foster a very healthy playerbase. In fact, I think AoE2 has the biggest RTS esport scene in NA right now (if not the world). It just goes to show that both can work, but the more important thing is A) The type of game. Ex. In AOE2, balancing units is possible because units still have a specific role, even if they are buffed/nerfed. This might not work for a game like SC, where units are completely different. B) The actual relationship with the community and the amount of effort that is put in. If you foster the community like AOE2 does, and allow player organized tournaments (instead of locking down the rights to only Blizzard sponsored tournaments), the players will actively contribute to the health of the scene.
@@ruhtraeelOk but in AoE2 things like micro, bodyblock don't require as much skill level. Also mass selecting and some otherthings that makes the game easier than BW.
@@ruhtraeel Can you send a link to AoE 2 tournaments? I'm interested and know it to be a quality game, but didn't know it had a pro scene on par with BW (if we're referring to BW in South Korea, cause that is what I watch and it is nearly as large as it was in 2009 right now.)
So many opinions being thrown around as facts in this comment section. You're definitely entitled to your opinion, that BW is superior, but it is an opinion, not a fact, and the fact that SC2 has 2-3 times the annual prize pool than BW says that it is a minority opinion.
Since LotV gets community patches and BW doesn't get any their names should be swapped. Also, RT had a video that talked about why broodwar can be balanced by maps and SC2 can't. SC2 has way too much mobility (blink, warp, medivac, reaper, ect)
On top of that everything in SC2 deals and absurd amount of damage. Blink and you've missed the big battle (no pun intended), not to mention that in SC2 small skirmishes rarely happen from my limited viewing experience of the game.
your balance complaints about sc2 do not transfer to its modern era. In the last 5 years, barely anything has changed and everything works the same way. the biggest changes seem to have happened early on in each major patch, like early LOTV changed a lot, early HoTS changed a lot, Early WoL Changed a lot. but now that the game has settled, the balance is mostly handled by maps (more maps because map pool changes like 3-4 times faster) and slight unit tweaks(most.(except for the time they superbuffed voidrays because it sucked and it created a dumb meta) also for the 12:00 lowering of skill ceiling, the Game's skill ceiling is STILL immensely high. Sure macro is easier, but you still have to keep on top of it which even pro players struggle at. Sure unit movement is better, that doesnt mean you can just stop microing them. Those improvements are just really nice and definately would NOT work on broodwar, but with sc2, if you forced people to play like broodwar the game would be much, MUCH worse because of balance. and even if it WERE balanced around the shitty game engines of 1998, the game (sc2) would be less fun in my opinion because you need to handle stuff that just makes things worse to play with for NO reason. the skill ceiling is not a reason as it is ALREADY unreachable in sc2. the difference between infinity and infinity multiplied by 100 is zero. The true reason SC2 will likely have a smaller legacy playerbase is simple: the game wasnt left alone when blizzard stopped being good slowly (It will not die completely, like broodwar hasnt, thats for sure). for example, the quality of WoL campaign is far greater than Hots and especially LoTV.
Great explanation of why an inferior game in terms of polish may be a better fit for pros due to the ability to better differentiate their skill level. I was among other C&C Generals modders proposing various improvements on the official forum for canceled Generals 2 and wondered why some players weren't too happy about UI improvements to make multitasking easier, so players can concentrate on combat more instead of fighting with a clunky interface but this video explains it in a way they were not able articulate.
Great vid, editing, and script! I just blink when SC2 players comment on BW asking for "small improvements" like smart casting, or other SC2 features. Simple reply: Those pros are putting up with the same awful controls **everyone** else is. That's what makes them stand out. Things that would even out the playing field entirely clearly isn't worth it. That aside, on the raw entertainment side, I see SC2 players who don't understand BW compliment the game for its far greater amount of smaller skimirshes, rather than "death ball vs. death ball." Yeah, because smaller micro is the way to win, and how maps are designed to transition from early to mid game. BW >>>> SC2
with remastered players got access to custom hotkeys, and observers can see both players supply count. so blizzard already have history of making small improvements to player and spectator experience. not that i think bw needs smart cast or smart targeting, just wanted to point this out.
@@TheSuperappelflapThe only thing better in SC2 than in BW is the observer interface. Give me a production tab, an upgrades panel, and a worker count. That's all we need. That would take BW from 99.9% perfect to 100% perfect.
A scene like broodwar will hopefully never die. Even in 99' and early 2000s I heard about the korean scene and dreamt of esports being a think in america. Even the early days of MLG didnt come close to what they had in Korea. They were like 15 years ahead of the rest of the world showing up to massive stadiums like EVO and League would end up doing.
As fundamental as maps balancing is the skill required vs game automation that plays a big role as *the less a game is automated the more the individual skill matters to overcome eventual imbalances*
Each ASL season, I'm super thrilled to discover the new map pool, but I've never felt that with GSL. I just love the BW maps. They are so varied, and lead to very distinctive games. I think it's partly because of the high-ground advantage, and party because poor pathing creates hard choke points, so you have to figure out each map.
With the new young foreign talent (Serral, Oliveira, Reynor, Clem and even MaxPax),big prize pool tournaments (gamers8 being an absolute anomaly to be fair and it's here to stay) AND the fact that these new players (Serral #1 earner) make serious money I'd say SC2 has been revivified now more than ever. ESL and IEM are still going strong and the addition of Gamers8 brings metaphorical tears to my eyes. Broodwar is clunky, barely has any viewership besides Artosis, hard to watch and the skill ceiling is _vastly_ lower than SC2. Just my 2 cents. Very, very exited about the future of the SC2 (esports) scene!
The two games a very different. SC2 has a way higher skill cap. And i don't know where you are getting your numbers from. SC2 still has a vastly higher prize pool than BW. It's fine to prefer BW over SC2, but you're lying to yourself in a lot of the arguments you're making.@@SaiyanKCM
@@Badassbadarse1 true, but in his defence, the nostalgia factor plays a huge role. And BW is mechanically, micro and macro vastly less complex than SC2 so boomers prefer to play the game that had essentially been solved and requires much less micro and speed. Just a few cents.
SC2 is hard but it only gets harder when you hit GM and face pros meanwhile hitting A rank (not even gonna talk about S rank) seems impossible mission for new player, even veterans and old foreign pros struggling with it. It seems that there's endless ceiling that what makes BW unbelievable harder game.
I think minimal casting overlays makes the game more exciting to watch as well. When I have too much info, I already know who is ahead and probably going to win. It's less exciting. In BW there is so much that's unknown and just watching it unfold is more exciting.
Also BW gave birth to it's esport naturally instead of artificially through money and that's a feature for success as we see it in many other successful esports
My problem is Starcraft 1 makes it feel like I'm fighting the game more than my opponent. To me that is a failure in design and play-ability. I will always prefer to play 2 over 1. Even though I enjoy watching both. I want to be doing interesting things with my units, not telling a dozen idiots 20 times to go up a ramp. I would love to see a version of Brood War where unit pathing is not awful, it does not need to be buttery smooth like SC2. It would make for an interesting experiment, what units would become better, which worse.
He explained, the clunkiness is what takes skill and adds more strategy in BW. If you have a game where all you need to do is push a button once and the whole gameplay is done, it takes away the challenge and strategy.
@@alvinsheczlek5243 Then you've never seen Terran players in Starcraft 2 Marine micro against banelings. Just becaus you can easily A-Move an army in Starcraft 2 does not mean you should. It's like tying an arm behind you back, climbing to the top of a mountain and exclaiming to the other people that got to the top. I'm better than you because I did it with one arm. You climbed a damn mountain, it's petty one up man ship that Brood War is harder, maybe it is. It's not the point when both games take a lot of skill to play. I'd rather have my units respond logically and reasonably. Also maybe there is a middle ground where units are not 200 IQ and covered in butter but not a changing shape that can't figure out if it can get up a ramp or not today.
@@QuintemTA I honestly haven’t even played sc2. And just taking the videos criticisms for what they’re worth. I can just appreciate what you criticize as “glitches” in BW as really adding strategy. It’s like complaining chess is terrible because all your pieces can’t move like queens, that’s literally the challenge of the game. I haven’t had issues going up ramps, and “traffic issues” moving around units is the whole advantage of Terran in BW by micromanaging smaller marine units around bulky tanks or buildings that enemy units can’t penetrate. The game would be pretty terrible if I had some god mode tank and marines that just plowed through everything. If ppl are moving from sc2 to BW, that definitely says a lot
@@QuintemTAdoesnt matter. Making those changes to brood war literally fudamentally changes the game and what makes it beloved, and more beloved and highly regarded than sc2. SC2 is a good game overall, but it still doesnt compare to BW as an RTS game. BW is the best RTS game, and the most balanced one, and its literally because of these things you younger ppl complain about. RTS games are STRATEGY games....and thats where broodwar shines. The strategic potential of broodwar remains unprecedented and unsurpassed, and it will never be. SC2 tried to INTENTIONALLY recreate some of the elements that made BW what it was that were created unintentionally by development, but allowed them to be created by the player base. Although sc2 obviously still requires strategy, its nothing compared to BW and the possibilities are not on the same level. The skill gap of sc2 truly is much lower than Brood War, which is a beautiful thing. The ability to get better, evolve your game, employ new strategies, etc is never ending in broodwar in a way it has never been in any other game period, and this is what makes the game have such a high replayability factor for 20+ years. The surface simplicity, yet uniqueness potential for every game of bw really makes it shine above the rest
@@nunyabizwacks6711 "You younger people"? I played games on dial up. I lived through the clunkiness of old games and poor net code/lag. You also did not need to write a lecture on why you think Brood War is better. I don't think it is. It's an opinion. It's culturally significant and important to the development of esports anyone that says otherwise is ignorant or daft but it's not a perfect game and I think there are better RTS games.
Hell ya, great video. I've been wondering about this recently, why brood war is more fun to watch. So it's great to hear you put so much thought into it.
Wings of Liberty was pretty good until Brood Lord and infestors broke it. The added units in HOTS and LOTV didn't do the game any favours, and just like you I also ended up quitting by then. Brood War is fire. It is better to watch, has more fun custom games. It's the best e-sports ever made.
You're 100% right. It's funny how BL Infestor was 11 years ago. SC2 was 2 years old. One number -- Queen attack range -- was changed, and it completely broke the game, and was never reversed.
I've been saying this for the past 15 years. I loved the WOL campaign it really was rugged, bad ass and cool. But SC2 just didn't have the mojo, the quality and the tactical perfection that was Broodwar. The new generation of "game designers" don't understand engineering, mathematics, optimisation etc. They are also juvenile story writers.
Players : We found a cool way to use game mechanics, units and strategies that are creative! Developers: HOW DARE YOU! We want you to play a specific way! BALANS!! Players : But we also found new ways to counter those creative strategies with other creative strategies and unit use! Developers: Reeeee! Micromanage! No you must not go outside of the box! Also Broodwar's version of the lobby and battlenet overall was just way superior. That was the first thing I noticed with Wings of Liberty, just how isolating, uncreative and limiting the new battlenet version was. Also also, all the "muh balance" shills need to watch this video twice a day, until they get it. The first WOL patch was way more fun than the current version of SC2 - BECAUSE it wasn't "balanced" artificially, but had the potential for organic balance through creative strategies, map design and just different playstyles.
OR maybe they're just different ways of doing things, and one way isn't objectively better than the other. Just because you prefer one way of doing things doesn't mean the other is bad.
Starcraft 2 was so relentlessly mediocre. I really wanted to like it after years and years of wishing for a sequel to the original, and especially after the absolute hype I felt during the big reveal when it was first announced. The campaign was ok but entirely forgettable. I played through it more than once but I couldn't tell you what happens because who cares. I know the Starcraft 1 campaigns backwards and forwards to this day. I liked that there was finally an automatching ladder and that somebody was out there trying to ban all the hackers unlike the first game where the ladder was unplayable because it was so overrun by cheaters. But I don't remember any of my builds, no games that I played stand out in my memory, I don't remember what the maps were called. It's all blurred together as one long game of throwing my deathball at their deathball until one of us gives up. I remember games of Brood War I played during the Clinton administration. I remember builds I had, tactics, base layouts, more than 20 years later it still stands out in my memory and even though I don't play anymore I still watch a lot of games of Brood War and I don't miss a single match in ASL. I click the like button, I subscribe, I hit the notification bell. All the things you should do right now if you've made it this far into this essay of a youtube comment. If Starcraft 2 wants to live, let its community keep it alive the way the Brood War community has stubbornly waved the flag for their game and propped it up despite Blizzard's best efforts to kill it. SC 2 has gotten more than enough support over the years, probably too much as Saiyan pointed out in this video. If it dies, it dies. Long live Starcraft: Brood War!
"Starcraft 2 was so relentlessly mediocre. I really wanted to like it after years and years of wishing for a sequel to the original, and especially after the absolute hype I felt during the big reveal when it was first announced." " I know the Starcraft 1 campaigns backwards and forwards to this day. " That was ME for SO MANY YEARS. Preaching to the choir, bud.
So basically Broodwar is good because it's bad? I got your point, but I don't think someone will deliberately decide to make a clunky game just so only pro players can master it. Yes, I like that when I was child I was playing CS 1.6, and now I can play CS 2 with someone who 20 years younger then me, but this is because CS 1.6 was a pretty refined game. But with Starcraft they pretty much didn't have another choice but to make new game more refined and simple to master
Well, Brood War was in itself a big balancing patch, besides being an expansion, that introduced anti-muta ball units to all facions. And there were smaller polishing patches afterwards. So, no, OG Starcraft didn't come out balanced straight out the oven. It got balanced with additional work. I attribute this to the particular people working on it at the time at Blizzarr. Obviously, SC2 was done largely by other people.
It is dishonest to leave out the financial impllications, the first mover advantage, and the entrenched interests in Korea that wanted to preserve the BW esports scene and saw SC2 as a threat. The whole "organic balance" and "higher skills ceiling" argument sounds masturbatory and as convincing as an NFT.
points for using "masturbatory" in your comment but your argument is silly. I talked about financial implications a lot with blizzard pulling out of sc2. At the release of SC2 there was a massive movement of koreans over from broodwar. They are coming back now because BW is more popular in Korea than SC2, has nothing to do with "intrenched interests" whatever that means, and everythign to do with the interests of the fans who watch and support. I'm not trying to convince you to invest your life savings in BW, just telling you how it is.
What do you mean? Blizzard forcefully and unsuccessfully tried to move players from brood war to sc2 and for a time, sc2 had a lot of players in Korea. It simply died because of better alternatives
Great video and fair points. I would add that BW has much more micro play and early game, which is probably the most beautiful part. Sc2 on the other side is almost directly mid -game and just massing units.
that's because of lotv's starting worker change from 6 to 12 though , inherently sc2 has a very high level of early game micro as well which was always utilized by the pros back in the hots/lotv days
You have to remember that Starcraft 2 was made by Blizzard so they could take control back in terms of monetizing the game. Broodwar was being completely controlled by the Koreans and monetizing on it and Blizzard couldn't do anything about it due to some Korean laws that prevent Blizzard from blocking Koreans monetizing on Broodwar without their permission. So SC2 was not really a project of love but rather a way to try to take control back from the Koreans, but it never worked.
What went wrong: SC2 simply sucks playing and watching, and blizzard wanted to force everyone to switch from BW to SC2. It collapsed once Blizzard stopped throwing money into the endless money pit (SC2 tournament funding), while Broodwar lives on DESPITE blizzard demanding huge fees each tournament.
I never got why Blizz just said FU to casuals and solo's in both SC2 and WoW it killed any new influx of players and no one had any reason to return as no content was made for early/mid-game It was all about going pro/raid guild and if you are not into that well, FU. New expansions for SC2 would have sold and so would map packs and mini campaigns etc. Why just leave it to rot?
I love how you have all these pro players who can manage entire armies and juggle multiple build queues and bases... ...And then there's me who can just barely get 3 Marines out of the barracks before the AI sends a Siege Tank my way.
Thanks, man... yes, Broodwar is life. I was excited when SCII came out, but once I started playing, I couldn't appreciate it. It just lacked the SC spirit. Broodwar, on the other hand, excites me every time.
Honestly, starcraft 2 is just too fast. I could never get into it. Everything moves too fast, dies too quickly, and it's all just a big pile of cheeses and scam builds.
Theres one thing u say here its not true. Diamond players are not even close to pro players. They can not do the builds in a perfect way and their macro skills are not even close. Im a master player and im much better than a diamond player and im still not even close to a pro player. Its ridiculous what pro players can do in sc2. Yes, BW is harder, but sc2 is still pretty hard. Also BW is still big en korea, much bigger than sc2, but in the rest of the world, sc2 is more popular.
True I feel like I could have said it more clear. I said a diamond player can hit a build to near perfection. I didn't say anything about them being close in skill to pros. I meant that macro is very easy in sc2 not the entire game is easy or easy to play at a pro level
@@SaiyanKCM i think its easier than BW, but its not easy. The game is faster and you have to do a lot of things fast, even battles happen so fast that sometimes u dont have time to react.
Well said, Saiyan. If/when SC2 dies, my only hope is that the we see some of the pros play BW. The broodlord/infestor era was what killed SC2 for me. Nowadays I only watch GSL games that feature my favorite terran players.
@@SaiyanKCM still miles better than the arcade game called lotv that we have now, where the only thing that matters is harassing worker lines all game long
Practice shows that SC2 players have a hard time getting to enjoy SC1, because they got so used to many conveniences that automatically solved many control issues for them apreadt. And now they had to do more control manually? For them it really feels like a step back. It requires a paradigm shift to go to SC1. It's like going from an automatic transmission car to manual transmission.
Wouldn't get your hopes up, SC2 is still thriving despite what Saiyan and the rest of this comment section may think. It still has a massive, loyal fanbase.
I got up to masters in Wol and diamond 1 after hots, but the meta just became to much to keep up with. It was annoying to take a break for a month or so and come back to some new unit or cheese rush
I think simply the biggest thing key things that has lead to StarCraft 2 going downhill as it is, is Blizzard's attempts to patch the game overtime, introducing terrible metas to the game such as Broodlord/Infester in Wings of Liberty or Swarm host/free unit spam in Heart of Swarm and Air Toss. Another issue and this may be the biggest out of them all was the 2015 StarCraft 2 match fixing controversy. This match fixing, added with many other accusations of match fixing, added with the fact that the best korean player at the Life was involved in the matchfixing. This caused most sponsors to pull out, leaving many Korean pro players to be left in the dust so they would just switch over to league or Counterstrike. Korea is StarCraft's heart in StarCraft eSports, and that matchfixing scandal had hit Korea hard, and Korea Starcraft 2 still never recovered, especially shows with GSL cutting down massively this year.
Yeah that match fixing scandal with Life, who was at the time the best and most acomplished player in SC2 and that coincided with the trainwreck that was HotS, made the game loose alot of momentum, viewership, sponsors and even support from Blizzard. Also that was the 2nd time a match fixing scandal hit the Starcraft scene in Korea (the first being in Brood War in 2010 with 10+ high level recognizable pros and the most relevant of those was of course Savior) and people were outraged. Image if Flash was caught in a massive match fixing scandal in BW, pretty much that happened with Life in 2015. One of the reasons for the decline in BW in late 2011/early 2012 in Korea was not only the growing SC2, the imminent switch of all of KESPA pros to SC2, Blizzard filing suits to kill of BW Starleagues and TV channels, but also the matchfixing scandal. Savior, while saving the Zerg race and sending it into modernity, almost killed pro Brood War forever. Good thing is that BW is resilient as fuck and no matter who fucks up/matchfixes/retires, the game is pure passion and will continue to be played and pushed to its limits and with RTS making a small resurgence with the rise of other old and good RTS games like AoE 2, AoE4, Stormgate, Warcraft 3, streaming being so big and a lucrative endeavor for BW pros and aspiring amateurs, the future seems bright.
the problem isnt that blizzard tried to patch sc2. the patches were mostly good attempts to fix imbalance problems. the problem is that with the way the macro mechanics work (mules, chronoboost, injects) and the way zerg and protoss are designed in sc2, and the amount of units they introduced with the expansions, its impossible to balance all the matchups. you cant have protoss warping in units instantly anywhere on the map with warp prisms, give them 3 different units that have massive aoe, and then try to balance that vs zerg with infinite larva that can remax 200 supply in 20 seconds, with a unit that costs 1/2 supply point and does 40 aoe damage, and then terran having "normal" unit production methods. zerg in sc2 will always be either too slow to ramp up in the early game or too swarmy in the late game. protoss will always either have a game winning tech or mobility advantage, or lose because their base units are too weak to win straight up fights. terran will always either win because their units outdps the enemy or lose when they dont. the only way to keep it remotely close to fair is to basically play the same one map over and over again that is designed to have exactly this much room for reapers to jump up, this much room for stalkers to blink, this much room for terrans to build their production facilities, this many expansions in the middle that zerg can take advantage of, etc etc.
Starcraft 2 is still a phenomenal game. Although Protoss has always been behind the other races, but I guess Protoss is worse in Brood War as well. Reavers not working should be fixed as it might actually help Protoss win.
Personally the biggest problem with sc2 is the fast game speed, brood war is a much slower game and allows a lot more time for micro, which is far more interesting to watch as a viewer and as a player.
That's a big problem but the biggest one is automation
Edit: Actually the deathball is the N1 and automation N2
if it's too fast then your engine is just too slow to react :)
I'm always saying, SC2 is like Need for Speed on 16x speed. With this speed all the strategy elements go out the window.
It's both about how explosive the economy is as well as how quickly units die, 10x the army size in SC2 compared to BW, yet the fight is only 1/10th in length.
this is why I always preferred wc3 over sc2, coming back to warcraft 3 after just a year of starcraft 2. I did play alot of brood war in the day, but mainly the customs saving racoon city, missle wars. golem wars, zone control, cats & mouse
@@Boooolin Some times it makes me sad that in the west 99.999% of people played brood war totally casually and often as a kid to then just move on to other games and when I hear influencers talking I always notice that they've never appreciated the competitive side of BW as they seem to have just stumbled upon the "clunky mechanics" and pathing when BW got remastered
really great video, well done!
Legend! Thank you! Means a lot coming from you
Artosisuuuuuu
Artists is behind the brood war cabal
you suck, bucc for ever
artosis such a hater. Diamond in sc2 lmao
It is so nice that Blizzard realized that they didn’t need to touch Starcraft 1 at all and the remaster was all about graphics.
But for us Warcraft 3 players…
bw needed mbs tbh
Whats mbs
And what about wc3?
@@stepiiva7964 Well while StarCraft Remastered was received well, Warcraft 3 Reforged was infamously a huge disappointment
@@stepiiva7964Mohammed Bin Salman?
I think the biggest issue was deathballs, units generally stacking up a lot and slightly high DPS. Units clump too much and die too fast.
I agree with you and I would also add that free units were very damaging to the overall enjoyment of the game as an spectator and as a player.
Swarm Hosts and broodlords were a fucking disaster.
Yup! Super anti-climactic from a viewers perspective to see two armies power up for 15 minutes... and then the fate of the game is decided in less than 5 seconds due to the death balls colliding and one beating the other. The end.
To me the main problem is there is no real commitment, no death ground. Its so analog. Units move too well. Plus everything is overly complex
not to mention cheesy and gimmicky unit design and mechanics like Teleporting BC's Mass Recall, Warp ins, Oracles, Widow Mines , Liberators. Boring afk unit design Roaches Collossus, VoidRays, Corruptors, Brood Lords etc
Deathballs are a symptom of the SC2 engine being too good at pathfinding. Brood War has issues at the opposite end of the spectrum where units get stuck or have trouble going through ramps (cough Dragoon cough), so if you're making a new RTS game, there has to be a delicate balance between the two.
Takeaway is - never trust Blizzard with your esports career. They'll let you down. Like what happened to OWL, SC2, WC3, WOW, you name it.
As if anyone thinks e-sportsman is a life-time profession. Ultimately all games will go off, servers shut down and every ladder and character deleted.
@@vvvvvv9205 E-sports will allow skill building in a genre, but yeah...If you gotta keep on switching games like you would switch up other jobs...Doesnt make much sense lol
@@vvvvvv9205 until you are playing something like Counter strike
Well any game will die eventually, unless its football or basketball maybe. I am glad that I did pretty much abandeon the idea of becoming a sc2 professional in 2016 as it too much time, and the risk of all that knowledge for nothing is very high. I much rahter enjoyed playing my guitar and piano and learning things that cannot be taken by a greedy company in a minute. I think way more people should realize this, that there are some skills, for example also softwarewhise, once its gone the knowledge is wasted time unfortunatly. The overlaying principles are the important thing. But what Starcraft 2 teached me was the importance of macros, and fast typing which helped me with other stuff, too, but every loss felt much more sour than any win I got, so I only recently played it on occation, and realise why I stopped it alltogether. Its bad for the nerves! It causes anger for no proper reason, and I don't want to be that person anymore. And its probably how many former players feel. The game can piss you off with ludricrous little mistakes, that ruin your day. I much rather not spend too much time of my life there anymore.
and HOTS too...
"Any diamond+ player can hit a build almost to perfection" 12:19... Yeah, no, they absolutely can't
Diamonds in 2010 wol days atleast
@@johankakuneither
Even pros didn't know either at the time
Nostalgia is a hell of a drogue
ikr i was like "no way he just said that" like he wasnt talking to starcraft players!
@@andrerocka8135 lol? you should checkout the names back then it was the golden era of starcraft2
@@andrerocka8135 Any scrub zerg with SUFFICIENT APM (important detail) can be taught how to max out at 10 min.
Learning how to deal with harrass, scout for all possible all ins is a DIFFERENT MATTER but ''doing a build''/macroing is NOT ROCKETSCIENCE.
While I love broodwar dearly I think you understated just how much on an anomaly broodwar is. There are plenty of other RTSes of the era that never got updates and never became esports. Brood war itself is alive today but struggles beyond South Korea's borders.
I think the success of broodwar also begs another question that the next gen of RTS is trying to answer: is it possible to make a game as competitively beautiful as broodwar in the 2020s without it just getting instantly ditched by non-competitive players?
This is a very good point. Personally I think it's possible but it will never be made and I'll explain my reasoning.
I think you needed to have been active during SC1's release and peak to understand the cultural differences and how that affects everything. RTS games existed before, so why is brood war such an anomaly? It's the timing and simplicity to understand it visually at it's basic elements. For most people, when they start going first on the internet and became proficient at it, this was the time Brood War was being introduced. There were other online games, but this was the new one. It wasn't just in Korea, it was everywhere, countries were pushing for computer literacy, even tho Korea did push esports where other countries did not. This was an exciting time where new tech came fast and games were exponentially getting better and better, but games weren't carbon copies of each other, genres were being invented, so everyone and their mom wanted to try this new title. Turns out this new title offered the possibility of infinite growth as a player which is great, but more so, there weren't really any other rts that competed with it at the time, most others felt old or had some issues. I remember RA2 came close to it, but it was dismissed after a bit. Community sense was also tighter back then, you weren't just randoms on the internet, you felt a connection because interactions were still unique.
This lead to an interesting thing most ppl disregard. Starcraft was the first digital RTS game where people invested themselves in. If you notice, quake is still alive as well, that was the first FPS people invested in. Tetris is another game that is still going strong. Because there was such a big gap and infinite ceilings in these games plus no updates, people had the time and reasons to get invested.
This changed when internet grew. Now you have tons of options so there's less reason to invest in something cause something else is always right around the corner, and that something is almost always more accessible, and easier to succeed at, why would you try your hand at a harder, more complex game in a niche genre? People are always waiting for that next big thing, with very few actually dedicating to each title, those that do, usually end up being goats for the entirety of the game's lifecycle (faker is a good example). It's stale. Updates are very common, so optimizing something just for it to get changed feels bad.
It's funny, as developers we are told to always reward player investment, yet when it comes to competitive games, we do the exact opposite.
There's very few incentives for developers to make such a game, there's a lot that can go wrong even if the game is designed the right way. For example stormgate might be ditched for it's art direction, even if it's perfect gameplay wise. And there's very few incentives for new gamers to invest themselves that way into any game for that matter.
The reason I say it's possible is that on paper such game can be made, even today. Moba's proved it can happen again. That being said, it has to be a passion project, league was a passion project, so I don't think any of the newer RTS are it, Stormgate can be it, but I think they dropped the ball in various things, melee combat being the focus was a mistake, the art direction, I just can't see it but happy to be proven wrong. If it's not such project, there will always be meddling sadly.
The reason I say this will never happen is just the probability, it can go wrong with very simple things, and it's a hard genre to develop. I came to this conclusion myself when trying my hand at the genre, you can't use your standard coding in regular engines because it doesn't scale well, same with networking, there's a lot of community features to be made, balance is a nightmare etc. I can code, but I'm basically an artist, so for a lot of people aligned with the mindset of taking that challenge there's also technical limitations here. And again, if you have the budget, it's no longer a passion project, it will be meddled with, and therefore fail miserably most likely.
This is not exclusive to the genre or even games in general, at GDC I see really cool projects every year, devs that have the right mindset, but they just don't have the background, so they aren't getting funded (worth noting that we devs fund eachother on these cases as well, but this is not enough). Eventually I find them after 5-6 years, now they have the background but lost the vision. We're in this endless loop where the community, devs, and publishers only fund people with proper backgrounds or connections (the new trend is "devs that developed this old game at a popular studio that is now shit"), but those are the ones without vision, and we're gromming the ones that are visionaries into people that are not. Once in a few years some genius with insane passion comes out, but it's no longer the 90's where these people with passion didn't have many obstacles, they could make their games and compete with everyone without the extreme imbalance there is today due to advertising, legal blocks, getting sued by random people with rights looking to snipe indies, etc.
So it's a systematic problem that doesn't let these games get created is what I'm trying to say here. Any dev smart enough to make such a title will be smart enough to realize it's not worth trying or investing in it and will pivot to another genre. Sry for the wall of text! OOPS.
Is it possible? Yes it is possible, but very unlikely. I'm in my 40s, and I doubt that I will get to see one made in my lifetime.
AOE2 released a year after SC1, and it's still popular (+20k players on Steam) and has tournaments.
@@robinv1485quake isn't exactly doing well my friend
Yes. You just have to give it a gambling scene. That's literally all it takes.
Releasing SC2 into the loving hands of the most passionate fans may just be the best thing for the game that Blizzard has ever done.
Problem is pro players arent' who needs to be making those decisions...they continue to let the game be fundamentally broken with overpowered queens...while it doesn't matter much for the average player the cost efficiency and what it is capable of is far too good for one unit and is just getting straight up abused by Serral, Dark, Reynor for over 5 years now.
Blizzard is too greedy to ever do that.
ive spent enough time reading online to know that fans dont know what the fuck they are talking about with balance
@@antearesgamerso the games broken because you cant micro like serral and reynor? For 95% of the players in this game queens arent fighting units. Its a macro unit. It has a role as an early game anti air role but its sooo easy for them to die. If you're loosing games because of queens, youre definitely doing something wrong fam.
@@Gol_D_Rog3r i always knew gol d roger was a brood war player
Dont get mad at rookies, they have still a lot to learn
You should cherish their interest
Broodwar MMR is much closer to chess. A 2750 grandmaster can toy with a 2400 same as a pro can with a S rank player
Give an example where a pro BW player is outsmarting the S rank.
Mechanics and speed over insight in BW, chess has no dexterity factor like that (and is 100% information game).
This vid happened to get re-reccomended and I happened to see this comment:
I think I was saying the elo numbers are similar in terms of skill for both games. Not that the elo measures the same skills. The example I gave is 2750 approaching pro in both games.
If you want to see some examples watch any Artosis vs Snow games.
@@IYPITWLA 2750 elo absolutely cannot "you" with a 2400 or even a 2100 in most cases. Anything 2000 requires tight execution and the loser is usually whomever makes the first mistake.
@@sterlingcampbell2116 Elo is calibrated so that a 400 pt difference means 90% chance of victory.
Go back and watch Magnus 2830 take over a losing position and beat a 2430 while drunk, or in BW the game where Snow destroys RT with mass Scouts. Those games showcase very similar differences in skill to the originally stated example, and the weaker player doesn't ever really have a chance to win.
Those "almost Master" or "bottom of S rank" 2000-2100 players are really good, but they would in reality have less than a 1% chance to beat those 2750 best in the world caliber players.
I actually really stand by that original statement unless you can give some examples to sway my mind. Your opinion simply isn't enough.
Broodwar is perfect. You can't top it. The 2d graphics work, the gameplay is balanced and almost entirely up to the players skill level. It's just the best game ever.
Reminds me of Smash Melee. These two games have A LOT in common. There are things we can say are technically just bad, like some StarCraft unit pathing/collision (idk the exact phrasing for this but I hope it’s correct) and Melee stage issues and some characters being literally incomplete. But they’re just the pinnacle of competition and player expression
@@Vercusgames
I think SC1 is micro challenging.
Here's the problem: If a game is perfect, in a developer's perspective, its frustrating if you want to come up with better ideas for a sequel. You can't catch the same lighting in a bottle the second time around. And it's not counting the structural changes in the company behind the game.
@@Vercusgames SC1/Broodwar is a challenging game, that's a really bad take.
If BW's perfect and it can't be topped, in a game developer's perspective, then it's time to switch genres.
12:20 "Any diamond+ player can hit a build almost to perfection, with very little difference between their macro and the macro as a professional player."
So as a high Diamond Terran player in LotV this just isn't true! Earlier you said that you decided to skip Legacy all together, so maybe you just don't know/ remember but there is indeed a noticeable difference between pro macro and Diamond macro. I was lower level during HotS and WoL as I was literally a child, so I don't know- maybe back then the difference seemed less pronounced.
I've been Diamond tier 1 with protoss and terran, and low GM with Zerg in LotV, and I second this. There is a fat difference between even low master and low gm macro. The gap is getting smaller every year, but it's still obvious to the trained eye. Also, while Starcraft 2 micro is way easier than brood war, the fact that units clump every time you move them forces you to split against any kind of aoe, which the game has in abundance.
I disagree with this. If bw was released today, I don't think it would be alive. The fanbase/culture from korea is what keeps bw alive today - there's a reason it isn't 'alive' outside of korea. imo games can be incredibly difficult without having artificial difficulty barriers using bad pathing/limited control groups - see chess. Someone who plays chess for 10 years will still most likely never be able to touch a chess GM. The real problem with sc2 is the deathballs, which was partially fixed in 2014, too late for the game to recover. Life vs. Taeja imo was sc2 at near perfection. Small groups of ling bane fighting small groups of marine widowmine with tons of micro.
Certainly nostalgia is a main factor for the continued interest in BW. I'd be interested in knowing what the average age of people in this comment section is, I'd guess over 30. Not saying BW is a bad game, it's just that the community has an unhealthy habit of pretending it's objectively the best. You're allowed to like one game more than another, doesn't mean the other one is bad, or that it's fan base is stupid or something. The existence and continued success of SC2 seems to torment BW players, and they seem to think about it a lot and make videos like this.
Brood war IS objectively the best. The unintentional amount of depth the game has is what sets it apart from any other RTS ever. The game was made in a way in which allowed users to run wild with strategies and gameplay itsself. Your play potential, based on so many diff factors, is the closest to as infinite as any game can be. And it truly is the most balanced game, because of the strategic possibilities. Brood War is the best game ever made, and this isnt just nostalgia talking. Of course brood war wouldnt do as good if it came out today, just look at it. None of this generation would give it a chance. And many ppl wouldnt even back then...this game truly exercises the noodle.
For me SC2 is good.but BW better.
@@nunyabizwacks6711 "objectively the best" lmao you can't make this up. This is literally the definition of subjective opinion, and exactly what I'm talking about in my comment above. Also, it's well known that the game is unbalanced, with a 53% win rate in TvP (compared to SC2, in which TvP is 50.19% over the last 10 weeks). Definitely not "truly the most balanced game", you absolutely have rose-tinted glasses from nostalgia.
i would have played BW over SC2 even today. SC2 is a really bad game.
It's also worth pointing out that starcraft was made during a period of fiercely competitive game development. It looked a lot more like warcraft 2 originally, flat and not isometric. However at a game convention, another game, I forget its name, looked absolutely stunning and the developers lied and said it was all rendered in game (not pre-rendered). This got the starcraft team shook and they realized they needed to push the envelope further. They were a team fighting for every scrap. Whereas starcraft 2 was made by a comfortably established corporation.
The original designer of Starcraft 1 is different from Starcraft 2. Different artists have different takes.
The game was Dominion Storm over gift 3
Original SC graphics were stunning for the time. Especially those turrets spinning around
@@drygordspellweaver8761
Only after they redid the graphics. They had original graphics, presented at a trade show and were floored by other games just looking much better and going back to the design board.
@@yourfriendoverseas yeah I meant that whatever they did worked, because it looked stunning upon release
Blizzard should focus on making starcraft remastered the new religion
I feel that we are better off without them. They care about profits first, and the Korean scene runs better without their interference.
@@Oblivionm24Activision* why do you retards still say blizzard when it’s not them anymore
@@Oblivionm24 Developers have no idea how to nurture a competitive scene. Even Riot with LoL stumbled upon the biggest game in the world but have mismanaged it into a rapid decline in the West particularly. Even Korean league was far better off when it was still with OGN vs the LCK system Riot implemented. Developers are too greedy and ego-driven to let third parties make their esports better. Valve have their faults and are by no means perfect, but at least with CS and I assume DotA 2 they mostly allow companies to run league and tournaments and only get involved when they have to.
Amen !
considering the numbers of people involved, if starcraft 2 is dying then bw is already dead. it’s probably mostly nostalgia that keeps people playing bw and also the fact that even with all the problems and annoying things you mentioned, it’s a much simpler game than sc2, with way less units, so it’s more manageable strategically. Sc2 now is a mess, there just too much stuff which they felt they should put in there so people would buy the expansions. I’ll never believe that qol improvements made the game worse somehow, it’s not that, that’s just old gamers’ way of yelling “back in my days!”
The best example I have to refute this is what I said about unit collision in BW vs SC2. Yes its harder to move the units and QOL improvements in SC2 basically made this a non issue, but in BW you have to move things intentionally and skillfully to get surrounds or slip by enemy units. It's a way that good players can distinguish themselves from mediocre players in a huge way.
@@SaiyanKCM I get that having that perfect pathing in sc2 might take some fun out of the game, but the first thing I remember from BW is how much I hated the way units got stuck on the ramps, and having seen some recent videos I can see that people get mad at that still to this day. Also the fact that you have to put every worker to mine every time is just a chore, I get that best players can do it better and get an advantage, but there's many other interesting things good players can do to get the edge. Those things are just wrong to me and bw could be a much better game with just some small fixes
@@francisb1 are you an SC2 developer? I think that's exactly what they were thinking.
@@SaiyanKCM You forget the majority of players are not in the pro scene, and don't give two f's about tournaments and completive play. They are casual. Path finding won the casuals. So you may hate it, it may indeed not work well in competitive play, but for me it was good move toward winning the casuals.
That being said, there are many flaws for the casual players too. As SC1 BW casual, I could easily make my own maps. In SC2, the editor was insanely complex to work with. The artificial balance with unit mechanics being ruined, ruin it for me as casual too.
Maybe SCII should have tournament mods where unit group selection is limited. Path finding? No idea if that can be altered too :D.
Starcraft is so fun to even watch it now. It's the same battle we can understand even after 20 years now.
So in short "Developer intended Gameplay(SC2)" VS Non-Developer intended Gameplay(SC Broodwar)
Good for them, I hope SC2 gets better with community led balance patches from now on. I agree that a lot of players switched over to SC2 for the paycheck and they also thought the game was going to be better. After burning out in SC2 a of korean pros have come back to BW though and I don't think it's just nostalgia.
I remember Day9 saying back during the beta that "obviously eventually they'll fix deathballs".......... In other news, dude you deserve so many more subs this is such a great video.
oh wow i never knew he said that....
Blizzard was hiring me as a lead designer until they went woke and discriminate bs women and religions. I helped their design team with War3 The Frozen Throne.
The problem is simple and I told em day one: Impenetrable rush defense of terran sealed buildings, zerg queen(which can 1:1 a battlecuiser) and nexus cannons was too much. If you can't harass their workers, you can't stop their tech or expand... So many terrans play like the famous caster Nathanias and just expand the board with the goal of a 1.3 hour win of getting one more mineral patch than their enemy.
Terrible terribly designed game. I would have never shipped the pile of crap that is sc2 1v1. This is the product of discriminatory hiring, you don't get the best people working. Anytime you hear inclusion, it means,"We ain't hiring ya Christian fellers." Totally backwards, and not the future MLK Jr fought for.
@@GoodNewsJim wow thanks for the insight
@@iamLI3 no probs, no one on Earth has played/designed/coded more than me in the history of mankind, over 150,000 hrs and counting, yet Big Tech so busy doing 1984 George Orwell corruption of controlling society by surveillance, honest people such as myself get excluded in the name on inclusion... Trust me when I say love is the way, hold onto your love and live forever... The spirit of love came as a man and they rejected him in his day instead of allowing him a rightful place in society. When you know society is corrupt, you roll with it, but corrupt society is why sc2 sucked so bad. I'd never let that crap be shipped on my watch. Peace.
You helped with that crap? No wonder they laid you off. Or for being an anti-woke nutjob
I would also like to add that everything from Broodwar / SC vanilla actually came from Warcraft 2. Storm came from the Deathknight and death n decay ability. Infested terrans came from sappers. Oberserver from flying machine. Seige tank from Catipult. And even the Zerg hatch liar hive tech from the Townhall keep castle in Warcraft 2. It literally was all from Warcraft and that's why people were calling the game warcraft in space.
While true, people were calling it warcraft in space because the alpha of SC looked like a neon-90's kitschy copy of WarCraft 2.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 yeah that's true. It looked almost exactly the same as warcraft color wise lol. But all the nits were modeled off of warcraft 2 units as well.
brood war will live forever
People have been saying SC2 is dying for 7 years, but it’s still going strong, with or without much Blizzard support.
Brood War is completely different though, with its much smaller scale and much much slower production. It doesn’t require as much balance. It doesn’t make it better or worst, just different. Your opinion is still valid, but it is just an opinion, because most competitive StarCraft players do prefer SC2 and ask for balance changes to keep the game fresh and allow for more strategies needing to be developed.
There still is a lot of money being made on SC2 by pros, so I disagree with your comments there. There are so many tournaments still. You can watch a new professional game at least 3 times a week, which is a lot for a game this old.
I also disagree that the pathing made the game less difficult at a high level. Again, it’s just different. Professionals aren’t using F2 to select their whole army. They also need to take into account the smooth pathing, to protect their mineral lines. It’s just as difficult at a high level as it is in Brood War.
I completely agree that the community patching is going to be a good thing.
I appreciate you a lot. I tend to keep your casting on as background noise while working and when going to bed. Keep it up!
There's just something about Broodwar that keeps me coming back again and again. The armies and swarms clashing against each other is really fun.
For SC2, it's more like a gang war. Too few units and way too bright like every unit has been sprayed with a glossy finish.
The game engine in SC2 is a cartoony offshoot of world of Warcraft.
SC- had excellent pixel sprite animations that were made to look 2.5d and textured. The coding was better- written in C instead of object oriented garbage. It all makes a difference.
@@drygordspellweaver8761 how is the game being coded using object oriented programming principles make any difference?? i dont see sc2 having perfomance issues, also C supports certain object-oriented programming principles and features, are you just using buzzwords?
@@drygordspellweaver8761 how does using C or C++ make any difference? i dont see sc2 suffering from performance issues, are you just using buzzwords? also C supports certain object-oriented programming principles and features
@@drygordspellweaver8761I've never seen glitches in sc2 I think everyone in these comments just want to hop on whatever bandwagon is currently trending instead of thinking for themselves
@@OriginallyG 0 people in this thread have commented about glitches/bugs, code can be declared not optimal without it being buggy. That's a big leap to make lol.
Everything presented in this video is subjective, and not backed up by actual numbers. In 2022, Sc2 had more than 4x the prize money as brood war, hardly a "dead game" compared to brood war. This video is chock full of FEELINGS; you feel this way or that about sc2. Yeah, a few people went back to brood war, but sc2 still has a way higher amount of actual support, backed by those REAL numbers, regardless of the way you may feel about it. All this video proves is that what I call the "Brood War Supremacy Complex" is still thriving in the brood war community, and the echo chamber in this comment section is evidence enough of that. Sc2 and Brood war are very different games, and just because you like one more doesn't make the other bad or a "dead game".
Facts
that is plain wrong. If you count daily proleagues, prize pool is much bigger for BW plus donations, being above 10 million vs 2 million saudi blood money. On top of that, BW viewership is 16 times higher than sc2. I get that you braindead sc2 noobs dont even include korea in the numbers for some retarded reason only you fucks know
You sir are the hero of this comment section.
The King of Broodwar journalisim is back in action. Love these vids mate.
So Broodwar is "better" haha. This kinda proves it. Been arguing with ppl for the past 15 years lol
This is a great video! Thank you for your works.
Glad you enjoyed it!
It seems like the things that make Brood War a fantastic multiplayer game are some of the same things that make single player and casual play way better in SC2. As someone who has no hope of reaching master level micro, and no intention to spend 100s of hours learning it, being able to smoothly control the game makes SC2 so, so much more approachable and enjoyable.
fair
I kinda felt the opposite. I always loved multiplayer in SC2 because I felt like it was more accessible, and I could look up builds/guides etc. and be able to be feel like I was actually carrying them out.
On the other hand, I found the campaign of StarCraft 1 to be a lot more enjoyable because there is more leeway playing against the computer than a skilled opponent.
@@Hulavuta SC2 story is such utter garbage, it makes Disney Star Wars look like Shakepeare level writing. It is utterly pathetic and moronic. As good as the engine is programmed, however utterly unusable for RTS. However good the cinematics are. As well as the campaign missions. That's how bad both the story and the core gameplay of SC2 are.
When we played SC back in 1998, no one told us we had to study 100s of hours before we could play. That's the difference. The idea that the entire player base should play like Koreans. So they gutted the game to make everyone feel like playing SC2 was like driving a race car. It utterly gutted the gameplay. Instead of making RTS more fun, they tried to remove RTS from SC2 by making it a mindgame platform.
@@Prometheus4096 I agree, SC2 story is perhaps the worst thing ever written, made worse because it was such an utter betrayal of everything that came before it. It made me finally understand how people who grew up with the original Star Wars felt when the prequels came out.
As I've been getting back into the franchise this year, I do find myself playing SC1 far more often than 2. I only wish there was a larger playerbase because the only people playing multiplayer are very good, as opposed to SC2 where there is still a wide variety of player skill.
Rebalancing a game to "Keep it fresh" often just irritates people. It is why people keep going back to classic games that don't receive any kind of updates beyond compatibility patches. People are able to become familiar with the game and learn to know what to expect from a given action. Think of it like a grocery store. If every 1 to 2 months they go through and move placement of items around, you as a consumer are forced to hunt around or to stop one of the staffers who probably doesn't know the new location either. Given that I work in such a retail environment and our planograms are every 2 to 4 months, customers get frustrated, staff get frustrated because things are constantly changing. And in the case of grocery it is some times the items being moved literally moved 6 feet or 1 shelf slot. Blizzard can't balance to save its life because they always balance just to screw with people.
Also it helps that SC2 single player includes a bunch of units and strategies you can't actually use in Multiplayer because said units are single player exclusive. As opposed to single player having the same options as the multiplayer. Additionally they created a bunch of really cool units that you can't use in MP. Like what? o.O
Yeah totally, what a well thought out point you made. That's why almost every single competitive game on steams top 10 such as CS, PUBG, and DotA never gets rebalanced EVER. Meanwhile look at brood wars HUGE player base outside of South Korea, almost a few thousand whole players!! So many comments here just circlejerking pretending that broodwar is something more than it is, a great 20 year old game, that is past its prime, but is still mainstream due to Koreas difficulty in breaking out in most esports
The sound design of each unit in SC1 is so good, which is one of the reasons why I always come back to it. Just love the feeling of units attacking each other and even their death sounds are awesome. SC2 just sounds dry like overcooked food. So many original cast didn't return for SC2 is a huge blow. I still haven't finished LotV and Nova campaigns after so many years because of this, plus the plot is ridiculous which most people felt the same way as me from what I read online.
The siege mode sound effect is boner-inducing
the plot doesn't make sense yeah
What doesn't make sense? The Overmind stuff? Amon?
i agree, the plot is realy bad, the ending is worse, with god like creatures and beams.
the good think that it has going on was mission design, that was superb in my opinion.
mainly the amon, as @gonzalo1059 said, god-like creatures are too ridiculous. also raynor simping for kerrigan the entire campaign is dumb@@Wiimeiser
Saying that it's better for a game to be cumbersome to play rather than intuitive to play is an insane take. You can have difficulty without it feeling like the game is actively fighting your commands. I say this as someone who loves both BW and SC2
Well difficulty barrier is a key source of awe created in sports. Imagine if the rim of a basketball was so low or large that anyone could dunk or score from distance, would basketball playing look as awesome as it is? Same for SC1. We feel shocked at plays,because we know how difficult it is for a human to pull out such skills
Thank you for making people realize the biggest mistake Blizzard did to ruin Starcraft 2 is their narrow dictatorial views. Every time players make a different play style rather than their intended purposes, they just stepped in and making changes to force players to play according to their view.
Riot does this with LoL as well - what's wrong with tank Ekko or fizz, or AP yi? or support mid with JG? nothing, it could be balanced to 50% win rate - but Riot didn't think it was the "correct" way to play it.
@@인간개복치world of Warcraft as well. It’s why vanilla wow is still the most popular. They didn’t touch it
Wow Saiyan, from kind of an obscure guy doing the KCM material (which we all thank you for!) to this kind of content, you have quickly become an absolute staple in the BW community. This is on another level and has reach and meaning beyond just the individual matches you put out. I'm happy for you, and honestly inspired by your path.
Thanks also for the reminder of what this game means for all of us. I've gotten a bit away from it recently, but it seems like I can never get away from it completely. I think, apart from the hands-off approach that Blizzard took with BW, this game really was kind of a "perfect storm". And I think for a lot of us it's also a reminder of our childhood and more innocent days. I imagine for kids who played basketball or something (which I did but sucked at), the game of basketball will always hold a special place in their heart. For us, that game is Brood War. And who knows? Perhaps more generations will be inspired.
You're leading the way with your content. Congratulations and thank you.
Thank you
Sorry but this just isn’t very accurate. Tasteless and Artosis are the only casters from sc2 out of the dozens that have gone back to brood war. Not a lot of pro gamers have either. Just the ones that were successful in BW that moved on to sc2 then moved back. The vast majority of sc2 progamers didn’t go back to BW. The large BW resurgence was mostly just in Korea which makes up a very small percentage of the overall player base. Sc2 still has more viewers and higher prize pools.
Both are old games at this point and both have a solid base of players and viewers.
I grew up playing BW, I remember my first game against another person dialing up my brother at our neighbor’s house. I played BW for over a decade until sc2 came out. Even avoided Warcraft 3 because I like BW much better. But I didn’t go back to BW after sc2 came out. Same with several other people I played BW with. For every person that went back to BW there are many more that didn’t.
Not alot of pros turned to BW: Just everyone except for 1 lmao
I don't understand why Blizz didn't just listen to the pros more. While build order wins are a huge issue (something pros have complained about for fucking ever!!), we still get some incredible matches in SC2. This gives me faith the skill ceiling could be increased/randomness decreased with not too many tweaks. I mean why didn't Blizz just add a 15-20% chance of a high ground miss? Pros were calling for that for YEARS and I guess they got word Blizz wasn't going to change that so they stopped? And why did it take Blizz so long to make the maps bigger when ZvT was completely unplayable on those rush maps? These issues that took Blizz like 5-6 GSL seasons to fix (or not fix at all) could have been corrected by the community in like 2 weeks lmao. It was so frustrating to watch and honestly awkward for the audience and casters. We were robbed of amazing matches due to build order auto wins and you could feel through the stream how disapponted everyone was in this shit game lol. You look at what Dota 2, League and CS:GO have done for their pro scenes and by comparison you'd think SC2 was managed by a 5 man indie dev team. Very disappointing but I still love SC2 and have faith in the community and the first patch looks promising.
BW is so mechanically frustrating, I love to hate it
This video is highly skewed. StarCraft 2 is a fun game and I play/played it way more than I did Broodwar. Alas it’s very subjective and I think many of these people going back to it are doing it because they fell in love with it back in the day where as they suck with sc2 for the paycheck and window of success. There are casters and players still sticking with sc2 because they love it, like Harstem.
Great video. Skill ceiling is a big factor in what makes a game great.
Back in 2004, Ever OSL semi-finals. Boxer perfected the unstoppable bunker rush and wiped 3-0 a distraught Yellow (z). Terran players started to make bunker rush on the ladder, crushed zergs and it looked broken. How Blizzard reacted? No, they didnt removed the bunker from the game, they didnt double its cost, gave zerg a hard-counter units that would nullify it. They let zerg players figured out by themselves. And zergs did learn how to counter it, with proper micro and tactics. It didnt canceled the bunker rush strategy from the game tho, and 23 years later, we still see it employed in progames. Whenever you see a bunker rush incoming, a 4 pool, a reaver build and so on, you know you are gonna watch something exciting, decisive cause the result will depends on players micro and tactics.
Now back in WoL era. Terran invented the reaper rush against zerg, crushed them in tournaments and reapers rush looked, just like the bunker rush in 2004, broken. Forcing SC2 to be the new best e-sport, Blizzard had the brillant idea to...NULLIFY the reaper from the game. Nice! So up to this day, reaper are just now a gimmick unit, making the same boring routine every game against a queen, and you know that nothing will happen with it. Will the reaper kill 1 or 2 lings before it dies? Maybe a drone? But look at the time! we are already in late-game, time to watch death-balls endlessely dodging each other on a A-moving 1-hotkey movement, until someone get a lucky good angle and spam spells.
This
bro never had to play against a reaper rush
Opening made me nostalgic, I remember being 12-13 and watching that sick teaser for SC 2 and looking forward to it for so many months, crazy how long its been now.
IMHO it's just one very small tweak that made major changes that increased the need for constant balance changes.. changing the base time to kill for units. Stuff just dies a lot faster on SC2 vs SC1. It looks great for those massive turn arounds and faster in game beats but it makes it terrible to play when your units just melt in seconds. And if everything dies too fast you need to tweak a lot of stuff to make sure everything is "balanced"
The original SC balance was a counter to a unit would survive longer vs what they counter. (ie. marines whilst having less HP would work well against Dragoon since they would survive much longer) vs SC2 Banelings (b4 "balance" anyway) would melt a batch of marines instantly.
The focus on being able to kill something faster vs lasting longer completely changes your meta... survival means you have more utility being able to be more flexible on your forces being able to macro/micro units to allow an army to survive. Just look at how much faster a unit dies when countered... vs BW units being able to back off and reorganise.
This is a solid explanation and I didn't really think of it that way before
This makes more way sense than people whining about how improved pathing finding ruined it. Age of Empires 2 pathfinding was really good in comparison and it only came out a YEAR later. Been playing it's official Star Wars mod for 2 decades now.
I love that everytime you show Artosis he is screaming in frustration - so accurate.
5:46 Artosis said that there are no Terran favored maps! Attack him!!!
which sc2 pros are returning to scbw?
I hope all.
Hi, SC2 master league dude here.
Watching Broodwar, especially ASL, is a great great joy for me, due to its legacy, depth and skill.
I just wanna say that SC2 is a way faster game, more macro oriented, all the history of SC2 might be desribed with the timings of the expands, getting earlier and earlier. It is very intensive in terms of fights/connections. Probably was made to be like that to test the physical abilities of the progamers to react on time. So, I would not grave SC2, I bet the long love, history and community are gonna stay for the rest of our lives.
Can’t we just be greatful to have both Games ?
I am a Korean but I must disagree some of points mentioned here.
If QOL messes playability of a game, it means it needs to be perished, and that is why RTS is meeting its twilight now.
maybe but i hope not
To add, the pathing in BW feels much more realistic that SC2. you issue a command to marines in BW and they move together like a very well organized group. Sure some lag behind or get stuck on each other, but that is actually how real things would move. In SC2 you issue a move command to 40 marines and they all instantly hive-mind move in exact unison and perfect spacing and pathing. A group of 50 lings in BW gets bogged down by each other because each unit is an individual, but all 50 lings in SC2 know the exact location of every other ling and the exact pathing every single other ling will use. SC2 feels like you are watching a computer move your units instead of you moving them yourself, because it is the computer that is doing most of the actual movement of units.
Units in sc2 move in formation the same way as brood war units (magic boxing). But because there's no limit on how many units you can control, you're more likely to have units that are spread out and in those cases the units don't move in formation. I think this is among the important benefits of a selection limit, because the game looks and feels better when units move in formation.
True! Well said
@@neonmarblerust Not quite true, if you attack move 12 lings in either game to a group of 4 marines, the BW lings will bump into each other and each ling will be calculating its pathing, which will result in a very imperfect surround. In SC2 the game calculates how the lings as a group should surround and moves each zergling relative to the rest of the lings to get a very streamlined surround.
@@nuclearscarab Yes, sc2 uses boids/flocking to handle unit-unit interactions, and I agree it can look unnatural. I'm just adding that because of the 12 unit-selection limit, when players move groups of units in BW they're more likely to use formation style movement, which looks and feels better.
Also, as you point out, in sc2 large groups start moving together all at once. But in BW, that command has to be split up, and so they start moving in chunks.
@@neonmarblerust That's not true, SC2 units bunch up, even in on 12 selection or less. units do not path around eachother, you can test this with non-hostile units with "pushable" turned off in the editor, the units try as they might to bunch up but get confused and start spinning around.
I know this, because I've modded the ever loving crap out of SC2 to try and get it as close to SC1 as I could, dozens of times and without doing some weird wacky workarounds (like having invisible neutral non-pushable broodlings spawn repeatedly) units no matter how few will clump together like a blood clot.
SC1 units tend to spread out as they manuever the map, even flat areas, SC2 units move through eachother like water, it's bad game design that leads to really volatile gameplay where positioning takes a back seat to FPS style twitch reflexes.
And now just recently we got news a SC3 is in the pipe. It only took 2 more future RTS(Stormgate, Zero Space) threatening to overtake the playerbase for them to move.
I liked the video. It's good to know VP players are still finding things to do.
As a Campaign Appreciator the starvation feels awful.
Difficulty in simplicity will almost always be better than difficulty in complexity. The clunkyness of SC may raise the skill ceiling, but that doesn't mean it's something good. I wouldn't even say that the lack of clunkiness lowers the skill ceiling in Sc2, I'd say it raises the skill flooring. There's a reason chess is more popular than 5D chess, and regular chess has plenty of strategies to make every game unique. I also wouldn't say SC2 is dying, 80% of everyone is just playing UGC or coop stuff, just like how everyone plays UGC maps in Brood War.
People play StarCraft 2 more than blood war the game was very successful is it perfect no especially with the story but it is still a great game
I've been saying it for years, the constant updating killed SC2, especially for casual viewers, which is where sports really make their money. As someone who doesn't play the game, just watches, the constant changes were impossible to keep up with and I still don't know hardly what is going on when I watch a match.
@@farseervisions Both of you are correct.
IMO because everything was so lethal, balance was basically balanced on a tightrope. A bit too much leeway in one direction and a good player can exploit it to wreck everyone's day. While BW is a lot more lossy since people are messing up constantly all the time anyways.
The old Blizzard balancing style of "OP vs OP" was more fun than bland, metrics based analytics, uninspired, uncreative modern way.
So many subjective opinions being thrown around as objective facts in this comment section. Nothing killed SC2 because it is still alive and thriving, despite what you may believe/want to be true. SC2 still has 2-3 times the annual prize pool as BW. I'd be interested in seeing your data that backs up your statement that casual viewers don't like SC2 besides your one personal anecdote. If we're throwing around personal anecdotes, here's mine: as a casual viewer I prefer SC2 because I can more easily understand what is happening on screen, and find it easier to understand why a player won or lost.
@@space_orphan The constant updates are what makes the game unwatchable. As someone who has sunk 100 hours into the game, I don't know if 8 roaches will 'currently' beat a set number of marines.
Wasn't Broodwar getting patches as well? Is it patch-proof now?
2001 was the last balance patch
Sc2 wings of liberty was pretty good.
Finally someone will be balancing the game besides plat zerg mains. Lost interest in the game when they buffed queen ground range in WoL
Wow I've watched a lot of SC II and Broodwar. You did a great job summarizing it.
Love your videos, keep going!
6:40 Wasn't Street Fighter 2 the first esport game?
people competed in tetris before that and pong too. Depends what you call an e-sport
@@SaiyanKCM I mean tournaments with prize pools.
@@ArilandoArilando And I meant teams of pros with team houses and stadiums full of fans with televised matches.
Brilliant video, perfectly describes what makes brood war a far superior game to SC2. Allowing the scene to mature organically and balancing with maps has created a far more interesting pro scene than anything a modern esport type game could ever produce.
I disagree on the "anything a modern esport type game could ever produce", and AoE2 is proof that devs can balance units consistently and still foster a very healthy playerbase. In fact, I think AoE2 has the biggest RTS esport scene in NA right now (if not the world).
It just goes to show that both can work, but the more important thing is
A) The type of game. Ex. In AOE2, balancing units is possible because units still have a specific role, even if they are buffed/nerfed. This might not work for a game like SC, where units are completely different.
B) The actual relationship with the community and the amount of effort that is put in. If you foster the community like AOE2 does, and allow player organized tournaments (instead of locking down the rights to only Blizzard sponsored tournaments), the players will actively contribute to the health of the scene.
@@ruhtraeelOk but in AoE2 things like micro, bodyblock don't require as much skill level. Also mass selecting and some otherthings that makes the game easier than BW.
@@ruhtraeel Can you send a link to AoE 2 tournaments? I'm interested and know it to be a quality game, but didn't know it had a pro scene on par with BW (if we're referring to BW in South Korea, cause that is what I watch and it is nearly as large as it was in 2009 right now.)
@@singingsatellite6845 ua-cam.com/video/c3Rztv3tlx0/v-deo.html
So many opinions being thrown around as facts in this comment section. You're definitely entitled to your opinion, that BW is superior, but it is an opinion, not a fact, and the fact that SC2 has 2-3 times the annual prize pool than BW says that it is a minority opinion.
Image at 5:04 I sees 1st place 3t1p second place same thing, isn’t that means Terran is op and Zerg is under power?
trolling
Since LotV gets community patches and BW doesn't get any their names should be swapped. Also, RT had a video that talked about why broodwar can be balanced by maps and SC2 can't. SC2 has way too much mobility (blink, warp, medivac, reaper, ect)
On top of that everything in SC2 deals and absurd amount of damage. Blink and you've missed the big battle (no pun intended), not to mention that in SC2 small skirmishes rarely happen from my limited viewing experience of the game.
Link that video please?
When terrain doesn't matter, you can't balance through terrain
@@vOddy75 SC2 (read: Protoss) is also so fragile you can't even vary terrain much. SC2 has never had a flat main. BW has low-ground mains.
your balance complaints about sc2 do not transfer to its modern era. In the last 5 years, barely anything has changed and everything works the same way. the biggest changes seem to have happened early on in each major patch, like early LOTV changed a lot, early HoTS changed a lot, Early WoL Changed a lot. but now that the game has settled, the balance is mostly handled by maps (more maps because map pool changes like 3-4 times faster) and slight unit tweaks(most.(except for the time they superbuffed voidrays because it sucked and it created a dumb meta)
also for the 12:00 lowering of skill ceiling, the Game's skill ceiling is STILL immensely high. Sure macro is easier, but you still have to keep on top of it which even pro players struggle at. Sure unit movement is better, that doesnt mean you can just stop microing them. Those improvements are just really nice and definately would NOT work on broodwar, but with sc2, if you forced people to play like broodwar the game would be much, MUCH worse because of balance. and even if it WERE balanced around the shitty game engines of 1998, the game (sc2) would be less fun in my opinion because you need to handle stuff that just makes things worse to play with for NO reason. the skill ceiling is not a reason as it is ALREADY unreachable in sc2. the difference between infinity and infinity multiplied by 100 is zero. The true reason SC2 will likely have a smaller legacy playerbase is simple: the game wasnt left alone when blizzard stopped being good slowly (It will not die completely, like broodwar hasnt, thats for sure). for example, the quality of WoL campaign is far greater than Hots and especially LoTV.
SC2 never dies people keep watching it on YT
Great explanation of why an inferior game in terms of polish may be a better fit for pros due to the ability to better differentiate their skill level. I was among other C&C Generals modders proposing various improvements on the official forum for canceled Generals 2 and wondered why some players weren't too happy about UI improvements to make multitasking easier, so players can concentrate on combat more instead of fighting with a clunky interface but this video explains it in a way they were not able articulate.
Great vid, editing, and script!
I just blink when SC2 players comment on BW asking for "small improvements" like smart casting, or other SC2 features. Simple reply: Those pros are putting up with the same awful controls **everyone** else is. That's what makes them stand out. Things that would even out the playing field entirely clearly isn't worth it. That aside, on the raw entertainment side, I see SC2 players who don't understand BW compliment the game for its far greater amount of smaller skimirshes, rather than "death ball vs. death ball." Yeah, because smaller micro is the way to win, and how maps are designed to transition from early to mid game.
BW >>>> SC2
with remastered players got access to custom hotkeys, and observers can see both players supply count. so blizzard already have history of making small improvements to player and spectator experience. not that i think bw needs smart cast or smart targeting, just wanted to point this out.
@@TheSuperappelflapThe only thing better in SC2 than in BW is the observer interface. Give me a production tab, an upgrades panel, and a worker count. That's all we need. That would take BW from 99.9% perfect to 100% perfect.
@@Dogfood130 there are mods for that
A scene like broodwar will hopefully never die. Even in 99' and early 2000s I heard about the korean scene and dreamt of esports being a think in america.
Even the early days of MLG didnt come close to what they had in Korea. They were like 15 years ahead of the rest of the world showing up to massive stadiums like EVO and League would end up doing.
As fundamental as maps balancing is the skill required vs game automation that plays a big role as *the less a game is automated the more the individual skill matters to overcome eventual imbalances*
Each ASL season, I'm super thrilled to discover the new map pool, but I've never felt that with GSL.
I just love the BW maps.
They are so varied, and lead to very distinctive games.
I think it's partly because of the high-ground advantage, and party because poor pathing creates hard choke points, so you have to figure out each map.
With the new young foreign talent (Serral, Oliveira, Reynor, Clem and even MaxPax),big prize pool tournaments (gamers8 being an absolute anomaly to be fair and it's here to stay) AND the fact that these new players (Serral #1 earner) make serious money I'd say SC2 has been revivified now more than ever. ESL and IEM are still going strong and the addition of Gamers8 brings metaphorical tears to my eyes. Broodwar is clunky, barely has any viewership besides Artosis, hard to watch and the skill ceiling is _vastly_ lower than SC2. Just my 2 cents. Very, very exited about the future of the SC2 (esports) scene!
I'm glad you are passionate about SC2 but your take on the skill cap for both games is frankly delusional
The two games a very different. SC2 has a way higher skill cap. And i don't know where you are getting your numbers from. SC2 still has a vastly higher prize pool than BW. It's fine to prefer BW over SC2, but you're lying to yourself in a lot of the arguments you're making.@@SaiyanKCM
@@Badassbadarse1 true, but in his defence, the nostalgia factor plays a huge role. And BW is mechanically, micro and macro vastly less complex than SC2 so boomers prefer to play the game that had essentially been solved and requires much less micro and speed. Just a few cents.
@@mistervanderveer Try getting to let's say C rank on BW and tell me which game is harder
SC2 is hard but it only gets harder when you hit GM and face pros meanwhile hitting A rank (not even gonna talk about S rank) seems impossible mission for new player, even veterans and old foreign pros struggling with it. It seems that there's endless ceiling that what makes BW unbelievable harder game.
I think minimal casting overlays makes the game more exciting to watch as well. When I have too much info, I already know who is ahead and probably going to win. It's less exciting. In BW there is so much that's unknown and just watching it unfold is more exciting.
you didnt miss much by skipping HotS lmao.
I think a lot of the people who were teenagers when SC came out also have a nostalgia element with it that SC2 just does not have.
Watch Activision (e.g. "Blizzard") try to kill this by launching another scuffed product:
StarCraft: Brood War Reforged
Also BW gave birth to it's esport naturally instead of artificially through money and that's a feature for success as we see it in many other successful esports
As of today, the "Featured" page of the Collections screen is empty, no bundles on display. It was fine 24 hours ago...
My problem is Starcraft 1 makes it feel like I'm fighting the game more than my opponent. To me that is a failure in design and play-ability. I will always prefer to play 2 over 1. Even though I enjoy watching both. I want to be doing interesting things with my units, not telling a dozen idiots 20 times to go up a ramp. I would love to see a version of Brood War where unit pathing is not awful, it does not need to be buttery smooth like SC2. It would make for an interesting experiment, what units would become better, which worse.
He explained, the clunkiness is what takes skill and adds more strategy in BW. If you have a game where all you need to do is push a button once and the whole gameplay is done, it takes away the challenge and strategy.
@@alvinsheczlek5243 Then you've never seen Terran players in Starcraft 2 Marine micro against banelings. Just becaus you can easily A-Move an army in Starcraft 2 does not mean you should.
It's like tying an arm behind you back, climbing to the top of a mountain and exclaiming to the other people that got to the top. I'm better than you because I did it with one arm. You climbed a damn mountain, it's petty one up man ship that Brood War is harder, maybe it is. It's not the point when both games take a lot of skill to play. I'd rather have my units respond logically and reasonably.
Also maybe there is a middle ground where units are not 200 IQ and covered in butter but not a changing shape that can't figure out if it can get up a ramp or not today.
@@QuintemTA I honestly haven’t even played sc2. And just taking the videos criticisms for what they’re worth. I can just appreciate what you criticize as “glitches” in BW as really adding strategy. It’s like complaining chess is terrible because all your pieces can’t move like queens, that’s literally the challenge of the game. I haven’t had issues going up ramps, and “traffic issues” moving around units is the whole advantage of Terran in BW by micromanaging smaller marine units around bulky tanks or buildings that enemy units can’t penetrate. The game would be pretty terrible if I had some god mode tank and marines that just plowed through everything. If ppl are moving from sc2 to BW, that definitely says a lot
@@QuintemTAdoesnt matter. Making those changes to brood war literally fudamentally changes the game and what makes it beloved, and more beloved and highly regarded than sc2. SC2 is a good game overall, but it still doesnt compare to BW as an RTS game. BW is the best RTS game, and the most balanced one, and its literally because of these things you younger ppl complain about. RTS games are STRATEGY games....and thats where broodwar shines. The strategic potential of broodwar remains unprecedented and unsurpassed, and it will never be. SC2 tried to INTENTIONALLY recreate some of the elements that made BW what it was that were created unintentionally by development, but allowed them to be created by the player base. Although sc2 obviously still requires strategy, its nothing compared to BW and the possibilities are not on the same level. The skill gap of sc2 truly is much lower than Brood War, which is a beautiful thing. The ability to get better, evolve your game, employ new strategies, etc is never ending in broodwar in a way it has never been in any other game period, and this is what makes the game have such a high replayability factor for 20+ years. The surface simplicity, yet uniqueness potential for every game of bw really makes it shine above the rest
@@nunyabizwacks6711 "You younger people"? I played games on dial up. I lived through the clunkiness of old games and poor net code/lag.
You also did not need to write a lecture on why you think Brood War is better. I don't think it is. It's an opinion. It's culturally significant and important to the development of esports anyone that says otherwise is ignorant or daft but it's not a perfect game and I think there are better RTS games.
Hell ya, great video. I've been wondering about this recently, why brood war is more fun to watch. So it's great to hear you put so much thought into it.
Wings of Liberty was pretty good until Brood Lord and infestors broke it. The added units in HOTS and LOTV didn't do the game any favours, and just like you I also ended up quitting by then.
Brood War is fire. It is better to watch, has more fun custom games. It's the best e-sports ever made.
You're 100% right. It's funny how BL Infestor was 11 years ago. SC2 was 2 years old. One number -- Queen attack range -- was changed, and it completely broke the game, and was never reversed.
I've been saying this for the past 15 years. I loved the WOL campaign it really was rugged, bad ass and cool. But SC2 just didn't have the mojo, the quality and the tactical perfection that was Broodwar. The new generation of "game designers" don't understand engineering, mathematics, optimisation etc. They are also juvenile story writers.
Sad but true 😥
Players : We found a cool way to use game mechanics, units and strategies that are creative!
Developers: HOW DARE YOU! We want you to play a specific way! BALANS!!
Players : But we also found new ways to counter those creative strategies with other creative strategies and unit use!
Developers: Reeeee! Micromanage! No you must not go outside of the box!
Also Broodwar's version of the lobby and battlenet overall was just way superior. That was the first thing I noticed with Wings of Liberty, just how isolating, uncreative and limiting the new battlenet version was.
Also also, all the "muh balance" shills need to watch this video twice a day, until they get it. The first WOL patch was way more fun than the current version of SC2 - BECAUSE it wasn't "balanced" artificially, but had the potential for organic balance through creative strategies, map design and just different playstyles.
OR maybe they're just different ways of doing things, and one way isn't objectively better than the other. Just because you prefer one way of doing things doesn't mean the other is bad.
SC2 IS NOT DYING! LOOK AT GSL CROWD FUNDING BOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Starcraft 2 was so relentlessly mediocre. I really wanted to like it after years and years of wishing for a sequel to the original, and especially after the absolute hype I felt during the big reveal when it was first announced.
The campaign was ok but entirely forgettable. I played through it more than once but I couldn't tell you what happens because who cares. I know the Starcraft 1 campaigns backwards and forwards to this day.
I liked that there was finally an automatching ladder and that somebody was out there trying to ban all the hackers unlike the first game where the ladder was unplayable because it was so overrun by cheaters. But I don't remember any of my builds, no games that I played stand out in my memory, I don't remember what the maps were called. It's all blurred together as one long game of throwing my deathball at their deathball until one of us gives up.
I remember games of Brood War I played during the Clinton administration. I remember builds I had, tactics, base layouts, more than 20 years later it still stands out in my memory and even though I don't play anymore I still watch a lot of games of Brood War and I don't miss a single match in ASL. I click the like button, I subscribe, I hit the notification bell. All the things you should do right now if you've made it this far into this essay of a youtube comment.
If Starcraft 2 wants to live, let its community keep it alive the way the Brood War community has stubbornly waved the flag for their game and propped it up despite Blizzard's best efforts to kill it. SC 2 has gotten more than enough support over the years, probably too much as Saiyan pointed out in this video. If it dies, it dies. Long live Starcraft: Brood War!
Well said!
"Starcraft 2 was so relentlessly mediocre. I really wanted to like it after years and years of wishing for a sequel to the original, and especially after the absolute hype I felt during the big reveal when it was first announced."
" I know the Starcraft 1 campaigns backwards and forwards to this day. "
That was ME for SO MANY YEARS. Preaching to the choir, bud.
So basically Broodwar is good because it's bad? I got your point, but I don't think someone will deliberately decide to make a clunky game just so only pro players can master it. Yes, I like that when I was child I was playing CS 1.6, and now I can play CS 2 with someone who 20 years younger then me, but this is because CS 1.6 was a pretty refined game. But with Starcraft they pretty much didn't have another choice but to make new game more refined and simple to master
I did not expect QoL features would actually make so much skill expression in the game.
Thanks for the video!
The macro/micro being easier made SC2 less hype. The easier you make a game, the less godlike the pros seem.
Well, Brood War was in itself a big balancing patch, besides being an expansion, that introduced anti-muta ball units to all facions. And there were smaller polishing patches afterwards. So, no, OG Starcraft didn't come out balanced straight out the oven. It got balanced with additional work. I attribute this to the particular people working on it at the time at Blizzarr. Obviously, SC2 was done largely by other people.
Og Sc was balanced by its expansion...yes. and patchs with some minor change. But nothing like removing units from the game or spells
@@olivierslupik400 Yeah, such drastic changes were allowed due to "game as a service" business model.
It is dishonest to leave out the financial impllications, the first mover advantage, and the entrenched interests in Korea that wanted to preserve the BW esports scene and saw SC2 as a threat. The whole "organic balance" and "higher skills ceiling" argument sounds masturbatory and as convincing as an NFT.
points for using "masturbatory" in your comment but your argument is silly. I talked about financial implications a lot with blizzard pulling out of sc2. At the release of SC2 there was a massive movement of koreans over from broodwar. They are coming back now because BW is more popular in Korea than SC2, has nothing to do with "intrenched interests" whatever that means, and everythign to do with the interests of the fans who watch and support. I'm not trying to convince you to invest your life savings in BW, just telling you how it is.
What do you mean? Blizzard forcefully and unsuccessfully tried to move players from brood war to sc2 and for a time, sc2 had a lot of players in Korea. It simply died because of better alternatives
Great video and fair points. I would add that BW has much more micro play and early game, which is probably the most beautiful part. Sc2 on the other side is almost directly mid -game and just massing units.
that's because of lotv's starting worker change from 6 to 12 though , inherently sc2 has a very high level of early game micro as well which was always utilized by the pros back in the hots/lotv days
You have to remember that Starcraft 2 was made by Blizzard so they could take control back in terms of monetizing the game. Broodwar was being completely controlled by the Koreans and monetizing on it and Blizzard couldn't do anything about it due to some Korean laws that prevent Blizzard from blocking Koreans monetizing on Broodwar without their permission. So SC2 was not really a project of love but rather a way to try to take control back from the Koreans, but it never worked.
What went wrong: SC2 simply sucks playing and watching, and blizzard wanted to force everyone to switch from BW to SC2. It collapsed once Blizzard stopped throwing money into the endless money pit (SC2 tournament funding), while Broodwar lives on DESPITE blizzard demanding huge fees each tournament.
I never got why Blizz just said FU to casuals and solo's in both SC2 and WoW it killed any new influx of players and no one had any reason to return as no content was made for early/mid-game It was all about going pro/raid guild and if you are not into that well, FU.
New expansions for SC2 would have sold and so would map packs and mini campaigns etc. Why just leave it to rot?
I love how you have all these pro players who can manage entire armies and juggle multiple build queues and bases...
...And then there's me who can just barely get 3 Marines out of the barracks before the AI sends a Siege Tank my way.
This video seems to ignore the fact that SC1 had balance and bug fix patches releasing for about a decade after it released.
2001 patch 1.08 was the last balance patch
@@SaiyanKCM I said "and bug fix" since they were also mentioned in the video.
Thanks, man... yes, Broodwar is life. I was excited when SCII came out, but once I started playing, I couldn't appreciate it. It just lacked the SC spirit. Broodwar, on the other hand, excites me every time.
SC2 gave me strong WOW vibes in its campaign presentation.
Honestly, starcraft 2 is just too fast. I could never get into it. Everything moves too fast, dies too quickly, and it's all just a big pile of cheeses and scam builds.
Theres one thing u say here its not true.
Diamond players are not even close to pro players.
They can not do the builds in a perfect way and their macro skills are not even close.
Im a master player and im much better than a diamond player and im still not even close to a pro player.
Its ridiculous what pro players can do in sc2.
Yes, BW is harder, but sc2 is still pretty hard.
Also BW is still big en korea, much bigger than sc2, but in the rest of the world, sc2 is more popular.
True I feel like I could have said it more clear. I said a diamond player can hit a build to near perfection. I didn't say anything about them being close in skill to pros. I meant that macro is very easy in sc2 not the entire game is easy or easy to play at a pro level
@@SaiyanKCM i think its easier than BW, but its not easy.
The game is faster and you have to do a lot of things fast, even battles happen so fast that sometimes u dont have time to react.
@@petercriscuola agreed
Excellent video! Would not be a bad idea to post it on the SC2 subreddit.
Want to do it for me? I would super appreciate it
I only disagree with one main thing. even if you want a high skill ceiling I don't think clunky movement and units is the way to do it.
Well said, Saiyan. If/when SC2 dies, my only hope is that the we see some of the pros play BW.
The broodlord/infestor era was what killed SC2 for me. Nowadays I only watch GSL games that feature my favorite terran players.
Hots was a trainwreck
@@SaiyanKCM still miles better than the arcade game called lotv that we have now, where the only thing that matters is harassing worker lines all game long
Practice shows that SC2 players have a hard time getting to enjoy SC1, because they got so used to many conveniences that automatically solved many control issues for them apreadt. And now they had to do more control manually? For them it really feels like a step back. It requires a paradigm shift to go to SC1. It's like going from an automatic transmission car to manual transmission.
Wouldn't get your hopes up, SC2 is still thriving despite what Saiyan and the rest of this comment section may think. It still has a massive, loyal fanbase.
I got up to masters in Wol and diamond 1 after hots, but the meta just became to much to keep up with. It was annoying to take a break for a month or so and come back to some new unit or cheese rush
I think simply the biggest thing key things that has lead to StarCraft 2 going downhill as it is, is Blizzard's attempts to patch the game overtime, introducing terrible metas to the game such as Broodlord/Infester in Wings of Liberty or Swarm host/free unit spam in Heart of Swarm and Air Toss. Another issue and this may be the biggest out of them all was the 2015 StarCraft 2 match fixing controversy. This match fixing, added with many other accusations of match fixing, added with the fact that the best korean player at the Life was involved in the matchfixing. This caused most sponsors to pull out, leaving many Korean pro players to be left in the dust so they would just switch over to league or Counterstrike. Korea is StarCraft's heart in StarCraft eSports, and that matchfixing scandal had hit Korea hard, and Korea Starcraft 2 still never recovered, especially shows with GSL cutting down massively this year.
Seems like the interest just isn't there in Korea yeah. I actually hadn't heard about match fixing in sc2
Yeah that match fixing scandal with Life, who was at the time the best and most acomplished player in SC2 and that coincided with the trainwreck that was HotS, made the game loose alot of momentum, viewership, sponsors and even support from Blizzard. Also that was the 2nd time a match fixing scandal hit the Starcraft scene in Korea (the first being in Brood War in 2010 with 10+ high level recognizable pros and the most relevant of those was of course Savior) and people were outraged. Image if Flash was caught in a massive match fixing scandal in BW, pretty much that happened with Life in 2015. One of the reasons for the decline in BW in late 2011/early 2012 in Korea was not only the growing SC2, the imminent switch of all of KESPA pros to SC2, Blizzard filing suits to kill of BW Starleagues and TV channels, but also the matchfixing scandal. Savior, while saving the Zerg race and sending it into modernity, almost killed pro Brood War forever. Good thing is that BW is resilient as fuck and no matter who fucks up/matchfixes/retires, the game is pure passion and will continue to be played and pushed to its limits and with RTS making a small resurgence with the rise of other old and good RTS games like AoE 2, AoE4, Stormgate, Warcraft 3, streaming being so big and a lucrative endeavor for BW pros and aspiring amateurs, the future seems bright.
the problem isnt that blizzard tried to patch sc2. the patches were mostly good attempts to fix imbalance problems.
the problem is that with the way the macro mechanics work (mules, chronoboost, injects) and the way zerg and protoss are designed in sc2, and the amount of units they introduced with the expansions, its impossible to balance all the matchups. you cant have protoss warping in units instantly anywhere on the map with warp prisms, give them 3 different units that have massive aoe, and then try to balance that vs zerg with infinite larva that can remax 200 supply in 20 seconds, with a unit that costs 1/2 supply point and does 40 aoe damage, and then terran having "normal" unit production methods.
zerg in sc2 will always be either too slow to ramp up in the early game or too swarmy in the late game. protoss will always either have a game winning tech or mobility advantage, or lose because their base units are too weak to win straight up fights.
terran will always either win because their units outdps the enemy or lose when they dont.
the only way to keep it remotely close to fair is to basically play the same one map over and over again that is designed to have exactly this much room for reapers to jump up, this much room for stalkers to blink, this much room for terrans to build their production facilities, this many expansions in the middle that zerg can take advantage of, etc etc.
@@TheSuperappelflap well said. I can't disagree
Life was a patch zerg. THE patch zerg.
Starcraft 2 is still a phenomenal game. Although Protoss has always been behind the other races, but I guess Protoss is worse in Brood War as well. Reavers not working should be fixed as it might actually help Protoss win.