Everyone, please go check out Byf's channel, subscribe, like, and leave a comment on this amazing video. Byf's Video: ua-cam.com/video/ZL7yq7hXNGY/v-deo.htmlsi=3924TKJaQSudezvY Byf's Channel: www.youtube.com/@MynameisByf Edit: Apologies guys. We talked about this video extensively after we watched it, but it seems it didn't make it into this edit. Either way, please watch Byf's video on this. It's exceptional and challenges everything we assumed or thought we knew.
DANIEL 4;11 The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth BUNGIE IS JUST COPYING THE BIBLE nothing new
Appreciate the love Cross. Thanks from me to you and your team. Also, thanks for the many comments. The Winnower video will now be immortalised with thousands of comments on the size of my dong...
Hey cross, I ran into you earlier on Nessus as you were making your way to turn Carl into a testing dummy yet again. Looking forward to the next informal video you got! Much love bro🙏🏼
@@ChaseChippyit’s super funny to me. People that know the creators scurry their way to them to do emotes and bag around them. I’ve seen Datto and Sweat in the tower as well and everyone made a ring around them doing goofy stuff. Always a good time lol
I love the concept of The Winnower, because its not evil, its just the natural laws of the universe. Nothing can win, if noone loses. The way we step into Raids, Dungeons, Nightfalls, Exotic Mission... the victory only exists, because WE CAN FAIL. Without failure, without inevitable, how do we win? But if we are unbeatable, and we fought the unwinnable... and we won? Then what. Did we earn our right to be invincible? Did we earn the right to control life? If we are above death, does that mean we won? Are we the "True Final Shape?"
I think we're a version of the "Sword Logic" I honestly believe we'll get to the same place the Hive want to get to but we'll get there through entirely different means and actions, same end point nonetheless!
The Ergo Sum sword's existence is a direct answer to that last part, about us being "above death" and "the True Final Shape:" No. Death is still an inevitability for us.
The Witness sorta had the answer to this. With everything finalized, all that was dead will stay dead, all that was alive will stay alive forever, winning the “game” and fitting the criteria the Winnower set simply by existing. How that Final Shape life would be is described in the Euphony lore tab but you prob need a dictionary or a college professor to help out
Yeah I’m still lost on that like no way in hell. What you mean I gotta record the audio? And then look at the sound wave under a music program or something? 😂 Play it backwards! lol
The Flower Game played by the Gardener and the Winnower plays with some true high philosophy variables. If anyone feels that, don't shame yourself for taking a videogame too seriously. It's not even about Destiny, if you read it right. The Unveiling Lorebook is more interesting than anything else in the Destiny story in my opinion. I'm not saying I believe they exist in real life, but in my opinion this is probably the most powerful metaphor I've ever read in fiction.
One thing I love about this community is how much respect and love everyone has for the lore Masters. When Byf got sick a couple months ago and he needed help to make his videos, the ENTIRE community rallied behind the content creators who stepped up to offer their voices to Byf. Even with their own crazy schedules and they all stated that it was both a privilege and honor to help him in his time of need. And now here's Cross who immediately tells his chat and the viewers to go like, sub, comment and show some love to Byf. Then at the end of the video after hearing that Byf needs to go through the raid and get more lore related loot, Cross, without a second thought goes and offers his assistance to get the man the info he needs. Nothing but respect and admiration between these two, thank you both for what y'all do for the community!
The first knife ship should literally be the witness freeze framed into a T pose with the feet as the front of the ship, and the smoky head as the ship propulsion😂
People have blown The Winnower way out of proportions, it is not some grand villain pulling the strings as that was the Witness. The point of the Winnower is to *not* interfere in the game, if it does, the Gardener wins. The Witness is essentially the child of the Winnower but went against it, as its philosophes oppose the Winnower & its idea of The Final Shape is calcification, freezing everything, including "the game". The Witness isn't some follower, it does its own thing, even though it's The First Knife, nothing tells it what to do as It stated in the raid. The Winnower believes things will naturally go to TFS & it's philosophy is like the Sword Logic which the Witness pokes fun at in the campaign, Rhulk has dialogue in Preservation where he & the Witness tried to get the Hive away from that. The title from Salvation's Edge raid seal is "Iconoclast" which is someone who goes against beliefs or religions, which would be the Witness going against the Winnower. & *if* the Winnower was a villain & isn't the Veil itself, that would be terrible for the narrative, it'd essentially be just restarting the Light & Dark saga. The Witness deserved to be the main villain, let it, so we can focus on stuff small & beyond the Light & Dark. The Witness & the Winnower have opposing philosophes, it'd make no sense for the Witness to be a pawn & that'd be terrible anyway, TFS is the end of the story, it'd be terrible to go "AH GATCHA THERES A MASTERMIND BEHIND THE MASTERMIND"
ye exactly, people assume that we have to fight the winnower just because it caused the creation of the witness, but that's not true, and the raid lorebook makes it clear the winnower still doesn't feel the need to do anything, because in its eyes, its philosophy will be proven no matter what. also i wonder if the veil is the winnower, i mean it's all darkness, the precursors used it to become the witness and the winnower's main champion, and according to veil containment, maya sundaresh also tried to do the same thing...
@@dankerbellthat lore you're refeering to from the raid lore book is a fake/lie someone created (i know this because the full lore of that book was posted on r/DestinyLore). I also think the Veil is probably the Winnower
Yeah I don’t ever see him being a villain but more like the narrative team questioning their own games logic (paracausality, purpose etc) and to add a bit of order to the chaotic universe that is destiny
The winnower is akin to the gardener. It works the same way just opposing each others ideals. The winnower is most likely the veil just as the gardener is for the traveler. We now know the traveler literally cannot speak to us thanks to ergo sum. It can give us tools at times but we have to choose how to use them, we have free will to guide us. The witness only happened because they found the veil after becoming dissolutioned with the traveler and the winnower/veil blessed them with the dark and the rest is history. The witness was but the first knife the first piece moved in the great game. We have no idea where Bungie will take the narrative next because episodes isn't gonna be the end of destiny. Echoes is building towards a greater conflict in the future with the permanent alteration of the traveler.
@@loopygordo I know they said that in the cutscene but I see them (veil and traveller) more like the Jesus or Allah of the destiny universe where they are birthed by the gods and are a materialised version of the true being Also why would a being that existed before time, be buried in a planet?
I don't think Elsie timeline hopping was ever actually explained, was it? Maybe that was actually the Gardener moving her in order to try and bring about the chain of events that eventually has life win and defy the final shape theory forever.
I think Else's timeline hopping is derived from Vex tech. The lore tab from No Time To Explain talks about Clovis going into a Vex pod and retrieving the weapon from the future.
@ChaaDubaItsIidan in the lore tab where we actually see the switch happen, it didn't seem like it was intentional on her part. Almost like a groundhog day scenario. "Welp, the universe is beyond return at this point, time to reset."
Here is a thought, Savathun is in this version of the game the inevitable shape that will become dominant above all, not her personally, but her ideology, which she has been working towards. Savathun sees the Winnower and the Gardener as two gods playing with the lives of those innocent inhabitants of this universe, and her final goal is to "kill" those gods and remove their influence all together.
I love this because it makes her a super compelling anti-hero. From her perspective, we're a bunch of whiny buffoons with no vision for what's truly at stake in the universe. Meanwhile she has a person gripe with being beholden to a higher power and her motivation makes perfect sense. She mocks us because she thinks we're idiots, and it makes perfect sense why she thinks that.
Had a theory brought up about the Traveler and Veil the other day on Byf's or Myelin's channel. Take a look at the Veil. Behind the purple lava lamp are roots that seem to encase a spherical shape. It's not too odd to want to place the traveler inside those roots. But the Traveler fled when the Precursors wanted to combine the two. Why? What would happen if the two entities combined? What benefit(s) does the Traveler see in not combining with the Veil? Maybe that the Gardener wins and the Winnower loses? Basically, Traveler + Veil = Tree of Silver Wings. What the effects of recombination would be, we have no clue. Perhaps the annihilation of the universe as we know it, or a restart.
I don't think I'll ever get over just how damn good Brett Dalton did as The Witness, he sold the character perfectly. I'm honestly kinda bummed we might not see much more, if any, of The Witness, such a great and truly unsettling villain
Light and Dark are tools/powers. Traveler and the Veil are the conduits of said powers. Gardener and Winnower are the cosmic Dieties of Destiny. There are powers that are beyond light and dark, and there are many other worlds outside of Sol. Savathun is teaching is how to do what the witness does. Which is to bend the rules of the "gods" to our will, our final shape. Thats what the Witness has done all by itself. The Traveler made the ghosts, which IS the cheat code for the game of light vs dark. All things that live MUST die. And the Traveler is denying death by giving immortality to guardians and those chosen by the light, i.e the Hive. The Winnowwer is literally chilling. Wherever life breeds, death follows. That was the cycle of the game.
We are falling into the Winnower's hands. Playing the game it wants us to play. Prismatic is another step; wielding both Light and Dark at the same time. We are the shining example of its perfect logic. We are the Sword Logic incarnate; We are the Final Shape. Aiat MF!
We’ve had confirmation that the darkness was real (obviously) but only now were we given true, undeniable evidence that the winnower/ the gardener/ the flower game is real.
Big thing is in one of the final shape lore pages, a being who has very similar mannerisms to a being that talked to oryx once, spoke to us directly. Notable quotes towards oryx were "oryx my man, kick back and relax". This same being seemed to be speaking to us directly talking about the flower game a bit and how wide the universe is, and that the witness, its "necrolite" was kind of just thrown to the side after the "knife" started acting speaking using the wielders voice, but wasnt following what the wielder wanted it to do, i think its safe to say this being could be the winnower, and if so, portraying it as a chill, talkative being, that seems understanding about everything, but still has motivations that are kind of sinister is a really good base line for it.
@@BrazarB Then il do good at fact checking hearsay from now on, havent delved into the raid lore yet since ive been too busy so was hoping id find it there, but either which way id hope the being that did speak to oryx with such mannerisms was the winnower or this eldritch being we are supposedly speaking to in heresy.
@@happypie1362 the raid lore mainly focuses on the Witness & it's people, I hope whatever it is in Heresy isn't the Winnower, & something new instead or old, like Akka coming through the Dreadnought
@@BrazarB I'd very much like for iot to be something entirely new, delving into the old gods from the void would be a fun plot thread, also following up on whatever savathun intends to transcend into to rival the gardener and winnower leading into whatever frontiers is would be interesting aswell.
Yeah, I don't think the Winnower and Gardener are actually in the 'game' so to speak but put the pieces that represent them in it, i.e. Viel for Winnower and Traveler for Gardener.
@@urazz7739 yes exactly im not sure we will ever see the winnower or gardener in game but i think the veil and traveler were put into the galaxy to enact there will and further the flower game
I’m quite curious what’s coming next after the Light and Darkness saga, because I can’t imagine Destiny without it. Considering the two are fundamental laws of the universe and the manifestations of it's creators, I don’t see how anything can be more important
the traveler is reffered to as the gardener several times. This means the veil must be the winnower. Which makes sense because the progenitors used the veil to become the witness, they became its first knife.
"Winnower" would be an entity that could never be killed. Only quelled. Like yin and yang, both are needed but both cannot exist without the other. This is getting juicy.
What if, by always running to save the Traveler, we are, in fact, becoming the first actual knife. Guardians this season have become more powerful than anything in the universe. This is why the Witness was trying to recruit us. We are more powerful than even him, which was achieved by being the strongest, lore wise Guardian in the galaxy. Our Guardian is referred to as "I pivked up that one Guardian you Vanguard keep talking about." (conversation between Amanda and Ikora in the Red War campaign). Furthermore, it is stated in the Unraveling lore book that in the flower game, a dominant pattern always emerges. What if we are unknowingly playing right into the end game as being the dominant pattern that keeps coming up. Most Guardians do like to DPS with swords, and we did get the Ergo Sum recently. 😊. Maybe I'm just blowing smoke? Love your vids, Cross. Keep it up. ❤
Resume: So basically, compared to the MCU, Savathûn is Loki, the Witness is Thanos, The Taken/Tablets of ruin, Traveler and Veil are the Infinity Stones and Winnower an the gardener a celestials. I think...
@@dankerbell I still think that the traveler and the gardener are different things. Like the traveler, the moon/satellite and the gardener, the entity represented as the woman in white clothes and/or the eagle of concepts that somehow resides within the traveler. Which, in fact, is exactly the concept of the Eternals, the Celestial within the Earth.
@@BrazarB feels really weird for the witness to imply the winnower is somehow out there somehow and it is just a knife of the winnowers, when it just used the veil as a tool to get inside the traveler.
Maybe the end goal with the winnowed isn’t to kill it, but rather to convince or prove to it what the gardener was saying, that while we (the guardians and sol system) aren’t the strongest the universe has ever known, but that we are still capable of making our own grand destiny in spite of that and accomplishing great things
I have been saying since WQ that it was the Winnower, not The Witness, that spoke to Oryx, but Byf, and all the lore casuals said it was the same thing now just because Savathun said "the same power as the Witness" but she never said he learned it from Witness. Also, the Taken aligned with The Witness have slight visual vfx change since TFS dropped, where they have a reddish orange glow in their faces. Oryx Taken do not. Thus adding more credibility that it was the Winnower that granted Oryx his power. Oryx has been, and will remain my favorite villian, still steeped in mystery all these years later. Cannot wait to go to the Dreadnought in Heresy. "What you call 'Light' is the limit of your evolution"- Oryx
Please accept gratitude from me for the effort and hard work done by you to decipher lore for us. On second thought this looks to me our story, I don’t see much colliding with our major religions. A huge congratulations to Bungie on making a video game on such delicate and sensitive matters and passing on the message. The more I think about it the more I dwell it feels to me real or close to our realities. Pls if any statement of mine offends anyone, ignore it and consider it just a thought with no purpose an assumption. I do not want to disrespect any persons religion and beliefs. Thanks
Dude, we(our guardian) have eliminated every single being that opposes us. We've been enacting the Winnower's final shape. We're probably the Winnower's favorite.
I saw a theory that the Winnower is actually the veil and that kinda makes sense at first but when you think harder it makes less sense, because if it was then how come it took so long for the witness to find it if it was getting orders from it, and also if it is the winnower then why didn't it try to link itself or something like that, idk but im not sure I agree that the veil could be the winnower but there is a possibility and it does make (a little) sense.
One question? If someone can answer thank you! So... The Exotic Sword Ergo Sum? Is The Traveler(Or Gardener?) in the Lore description talking about it's "existence" to the point it has a "sword" and that sword is The Guardian?
@@Grassdia OOOOOH... Wait. By hierarchy? Like Gardener/Traveler/Witness And Winnower/Veil/Guardian. Side by side? If so The Guardian doesn't have a purpose relating to the Gardener's side? Or we just don't have enough information where The Guardian plays a part in this "game?" Between the 2?
19:37 y’all don’t understand time. Time is just the measurements not a force so indifference is no time. Like staying still or not changing. It’s only delaying the inevitable. Maybe all the things the witness said was a reflection but it couldn’t see it but kept revealing it. A witness because it can’t be anything else. Back to the thought though, so we can’t kill indifference unless we use understanding aka shine light into the darkness and become one with the winnower but see the parts that we didn’t see before and we weird both sides but expand into the frontiers. Look at the portal when you hover over the traveler when picking a destination, the image changes so maybe the traveler will make real alternate dimensions kinda like how the veil is the darkness and the traveler shines light into the darkness of multiple dimensions entangled. This could mean the multiverse or the more relative like the hive throne worlds. Pocket dimensions that the understander can use like how a planet is like a pocket of crossed dimensions.
Greetings guardians! My name is Josue here. I remember a that in some lore it talked about someone More evil than Oryx, and that someone gave the power to Oryx.
I like to think that the Traveler is a created being, not the Gardener. Instead, it’s the piece the Gardener added to the Flower Game; hence, its lack of omnipotence (which I feel the Gardener and Winnower would have). Some folk I know say the Winnower is the Veil. I view it the same as the Traveler: a created being. When we talk of “gods,” we should think of something that doesn’t rely on anything else to exist. A god would be reliant on itself to be. When the Witness says “your Gardener,” I think it’s referring to the higher deities of the game’s universe.
You maybe right about year 11. Coleman frontiers? Getting Star Trek vibes. Also the final cutscene when crow is telling you about the remaining threats in order…from savathun, Nessus, eramis and fikrul, ending with xivu. But then says the most worrying thing is the aurora coming from the traveler..maybe it grows and gets worse and we need to leave earth…leave sol..to new frontiers
Whats even crazier, please think about this. In that line "Gods forged us both. But they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve" We were also forged by gods, and we , our guardian, are also the knife. 🤯
evil can not exist without good, shadows dont exist without light and wise versa, life and death cannot exist without each other, everything in the universe in shaped in a circle one way or another, the final shape is a circle, the circle of life. lol i dk. but its a good thought thou. love these vids from byf with aztec, you guys need to hook up for some raid lore hunting
The reactions of the Winnower when the Gardener suggested the new rule convinced me that the Winnower is not evil. In this particular dialogue, the Gardener seems more chaotic or evil than the Winnower because the Gardener doesn't seem to know exactly how this new rule will play out and makes both the Gardener and the Winnower part of the game that can cause more suffering. Maybe the Gardener feels soory for the live that is lost and want a rule change to make it perhaps eternal or something like that. Or the Gardener was simply bored, whatever the truth is, the Winnower really seems to be uncomfortable with everything and makes him very relateable. It's like back in your childhood if you play with your friend and the friends makes up new rules to annoy you because you win too often. This seems like this but on a universal scale. I don't know but the Gardener seems very irresponsible.
the Winnower represents death and the Gardener life.The Gardener new rule are ghosts that grant inmortality so from the Winnowers perspective this is cheating.
I mean at the end of the day, the Winnower has a point. All life flows back to the Final Shape. In us beating the Witness, we proved that we deserve to live. It’s like the mf proved a point…
Bungie has been playing a game of chess and we have always been a few moves behind. The lore is so much deeper than people realise but only now are we getting some but not necessarily all the answers after 10 years
If The Witness is a disciple, and the first disciple of the winnower, what if the speaker was a disciple of the traveler? The speaker wasn't the first after all. But what if we became the next disciple of the traveler?
This is actually terrifying to think about…. If the Witness is just one of the Winnower’s “knives”, then what does that say how powerful it actually is?
I feel like the witness was maybe one of the 9 it makes sense, there 1 witness and 9 other of the nine and then there The Winnower and The Gardener. The 9 beings picking sides of what they want in the universe Good or Evil. it would make sense there warriors of the beings. The Witness and Xur, and others that we have not seen yet, let alone The Gardener and The Windower.
This is cool but if not written well could be a problem. Its like them introducing the witness years into the story and saying hes the big bad all over again but now its the winnower. Still would be very interesting to see where light and dark originated from and what their end goal is.
My theory? The guardian is the outlier in the game between the Gardener and the Winnower. And its the Guardians destiny to unite them both and restore balance to the universe. Thus becoming legend. Thats why we never lose. Thats why we unified both light and dark into one with prismatic. Thats why the vanguard has us do everything. And the Gardener knows this im sure. The Winnower is officially now taking us seriously and will be interacting with us for killing the Witness. But it all makes sense. The Guardian is the final shape. The 1 piece on the board that neither God has true control over. We essentially enact the Sword logic everytime we win a battle. Except we're not winning these battles to prove we're powerful, we're winning to prove that humanity has a role in the grand scheme of the universe. And that everyone has a right to live out their existence how they choose. And the only time power needs to be shown is in the face of adversity. Even if you relate it to God and the Devil, God never interferes. Only provides the means. Its up to us to find our way. Whereas the Devil seeks to control. Manipulate. Change. He thinks he can control existence, but his downfall, and the Winnowers downfall, is that existence is not meant to be controlled or shaped by anyone other than the person granted the gift of existence. And thats why we will become legend and restore balance to the universe. And end the game.
Damn, The Traveler and the Darkness are gifts of the winnower and the gardener, basically.. and we are fighting a war that is simply a game for the Gods, that's some deep s***
My theory is simple, the gardener and the winnower are cosmic beings/gods playing a chess game , the following are just some of the pieces, the witness,the traveler,the veil,orix, the nine,the vex and others im forgetting or not in the game yet, both the winnower and the gardener interfere in some ways like creating the Vail/ the creation of the witness and the traveler/the creation of the guardians.
You got me thinking there! Hold on, it may just look like this…. The Gardener: “I got your Queen piece!” The Winnower: “Agh! That was my favorite one!!” (When the Guardian killed Oryx”. The Winnower: “But guess what, I got a pawn to your base tiles, now I have a new Queen”. (When the Guardian became a main interest for the Winnower). The Witness: “Dad, this game sucks!” The Winnower: “nah ah! The Witness: “Ah ha! And I’m gonna glue your stupid pieces to the stupid board!” The Gardener: “Kid, you lost your damn mind!? Chess pieces, get him!” *the son is viciously torn to pieces by chess pieces* (The events of the Final Shape).
Dude… what if the guardian is the final shape? What a paradox tho created by the traveler but becoming what the winower ultimately wants. The strongest being in the universe wielding both light and dark together and we’re wiping out everything that comes across our path so far too.
It took Destiny's creators this long to get back to the lore? Sheesh........we who left when Destiny pivoted may just return now. I'm very happy to see this return.
There is another “Lore Scholar” called Evaze that came up with this report 2 days before Byf video. All that same but a bit sooner and more to the point.
When I think of Gods I’m thinking like Dragonball Super, like what do the Gods and Angels do? Just fuck around because they’re OP, they’re all-knowing, the highest tier of the food chain. That’s why I think it was sort of a cop out in Resurrection F when Golden Frieza blew up the Earth and Whis who was an Angel, just reversed time so it didn’t happen. He meddled in human affairs, something deities don’t do. Would the Winnower even fight us? Maybe if we pissed it off, but it’s so strong it doesn’t need to or even prove anything to fight back. I mean if Destiny is going into the realm of god territory now this’ll be sick, subclass wise 😳
What if… we gained the power of the gardener to defeat the winnower and upon defeating the winnower we absorbed its power to coexist with the power of the Gardener in one entity? This would technically balance light and dark. Thoughts?
Everyone, please go check out Byf's channel, subscribe, like, and leave a comment on this amazing video.
Byf's Video: ua-cam.com/video/ZL7yq7hXNGY/v-deo.htmlsi=3924TKJaQSudezvY
Byf's Channel: www.youtube.com/@MynameisByf
Edit: Apologies guys. We talked about this video extensively after we watched it, but it seems it didn't make it into this edit. Either way, please watch Byf's video on this. It's exceptional and challenges everything we assumed or thought we knew.
That's how you do reaction content. Linking the creator and the video, unlike some people (cough, cough, sniperwolf).
aztecross bungie is just taking from the bible
this is not new lore
READ THE BIBLE FOR ONCE
( the shade of tree shall cover all nations )
DANIEL 4;11
The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth
BUNGIE IS JUST COPYING THE BIBLE
nothing new
Appreciate the love Cross. Thanks from me to you and your team. Also, thanks for the many comments. The Winnower video will now be immortalised with thousands of comments on the size of my dong...
Byf makes me puke. What a gross character he is.
Hey cross, I ran into you earlier on Nessus as you were making your way to turn Carl into a testing dummy yet again. Looking forward to the next informal video you got! Much love bro🙏🏼
I ran into cross in D1 and said GG and i like his youtube videos but ignored me cus i warlock fusion him in rumble 😂
@@CursedMarkZain bot
I always love stuff like this. One time I saw a friend of mine in the killfeed of a Datto video lol
I ran into cross and bros in trials unfortunately. We got manhandled and i was a fan ever since.
@@ChaseChippyit’s super funny to me. People that know the creators scurry their way to them to do emotes and bag around them. I’ve seen Datto and Sweat in the tower as well and everyone made a ring around them doing goofy stuff. Always a good time lol
We have the ⚪circle. Just fucked up the ⛛ triangle. Square ⬜ coming at us
tell him to square up
Those are definitely the 3 basic shapes of the universe
@@o_b_cityHexagons be like:
But who is the X?
@@Landofalcon007The guardians
I love how cross isn’t even really “reacting” like most UA-camrs, he’s just having the same reaction as all of us, just interest
I love the concept of The Winnower, because its not evil, its just the natural laws of the universe. Nothing can win, if noone loses.
The way we step into Raids, Dungeons, Nightfalls, Exotic Mission... the victory only exists, because WE CAN FAIL.
Without failure, without inevitable, how do we win?
But if we are unbeatable, and we fought the unwinnable... and we won? Then what. Did we earn our right to be invincible? Did we earn the right to control life?
If we are above death, does that mean we won? Are we the "True Final Shape?"
🤔
I think we're a version of the "Sword Logic" I honestly believe we'll get to the same place the Hive want to get to but we'll get there through entirely different means and actions, same end point nonetheless!
that last line hits hard as f
The Ergo Sum sword's existence is a direct answer to that last part, about us being "above death" and "the True Final Shape:"
No. Death is still an inevitability for us.
The Witness sorta had the answer to this. With everything finalized, all that was dead will stay dead, all that was alive will stay alive forever, winning the “game” and fitting the criteria the Winnower set simply by existing.
How that Final Shape life would be is described in the Euphony lore tab but you prob need a dictionary or a college professor to help out
Aight now we need a Aztecross Dread language translation video
Yeah I’m still lost on that like no way in hell.
What you mean I gotta record the audio? And then look at the sound wave under a music program or something? 😂
Play it backwards! lol
Cross running salvation edge with byf while he speaks on the raid lore sounds like the type you tube video, that would require popcorn
Yes! Let's get these boys together.
as a lore nerd myself, i love watching people grasping the big points of destiny's lore and losing their minds. its always so satisfying.
The Flower Game played by the Gardener and the Winnower plays with some true high philosophy variables. If anyone feels that, don't shame yourself for taking a videogame too seriously. It's not even about Destiny, if you read it right. The Unveiling Lorebook is more interesting than anything else in the Destiny story in my opinion. I'm not saying I believe they exist in real life, but in my opinion this is probably the most powerful metaphor I've ever read in fiction.
That being said Destiny is doing great, I love this game, and Bungie be cooking lately😏
I love destiny but its lore is a cringefest :)
@@nocontender6409 what ??
@@nocontender6409then you need to read more fiction, like seriously
In Unveiling, there is a section where the Winnower absolutely trashes the Witnesses nihilist views, which gave me a chuckle.
It looked at the Gardner
It looked at its hands
It discovered the first
*lit cigarette*
One thing I love about this community is how much respect and love everyone has for the lore Masters.
When Byf got sick a couple months ago and he needed help to make his videos, the ENTIRE community rallied behind the content creators who stepped up to offer their voices to Byf. Even with their own crazy schedules and they all stated that it was both a privilege and honor to help him in his time of need.
And now here's Cross who immediately tells his chat and the viewers to go like, sub, comment and show some love to Byf.
Then at the end of the video after hearing that Byf needs to go through the raid and get more lore related loot, Cross, without a second thought goes and offers his assistance to get the man the info he needs.
Nothing but respect and admiration between these two, thank you both for what y'all do for the community!
Yeah he became BYF OF 100 VOICES
I had no idea that plateau in the black garden was a stump, but now I can’t unsee it
OMG Cross, I almost fell over when you said: "holy $#!t that's a stump!"😂😂😂
The first knife ship should literally be the witness freeze framed into a T pose with the feet as the front of the ship, and the smoky head as the ship propulsion😂
People have blown The Winnower way out of proportions, it is not some grand villain pulling the strings as that was the Witness. The point of the Winnower is to *not* interfere in the game, if it does, the Gardener wins. The Witness is essentially the child of the Winnower but went against it, as its philosophes oppose the Winnower & its idea of The Final Shape is calcification, freezing everything, including "the game". The Witness isn't some follower, it does its own thing, even though it's The First Knife, nothing tells it what to do as It stated in the raid. The Winnower believes things will naturally go to TFS & it's philosophy is like the Sword Logic which the Witness pokes fun at in the campaign, Rhulk has dialogue in Preservation where he & the Witness tried to get the Hive away from that. The title from Salvation's Edge raid seal is "Iconoclast" which is someone who goes against beliefs or religions, which would be the Witness going against the Winnower.
& *if* the Winnower was a villain & isn't the Veil itself, that would be terrible for the narrative, it'd essentially be just restarting the Light & Dark saga. The Witness deserved to be the main villain, let it, so we can focus on stuff small & beyond the Light & Dark.
The Witness & the Winnower have opposing philosophes, it'd make no sense for the Witness to be a pawn & that'd be terrible anyway, TFS is the end of the story, it'd be terrible to go "AH GATCHA THERES A MASTERMIND BEHIND THE MASTERMIND"
ye exactly, people assume that we have to fight the winnower just because it caused the creation of the witness, but that's not true, and the raid lorebook makes it clear the winnower still doesn't feel the need to do anything, because in its eyes, its philosophy will be proven no matter what. also i wonder if the veil is the winnower, i mean it's all darkness, the precursors used it to become the witness and the winnower's main champion, and according to veil containment, maya sundaresh also tried to do the same thing...
@@dankerbellthat lore you're refeering to from the raid lore book is a fake/lie someone created (i know this because the full lore of that book was posted on r/DestinyLore). I also think the Veil is probably the Winnower
Yeah I don’t ever see him being a villain but more like the narrative team questioning their own games logic (paracausality, purpose etc) and to add a bit of order to the chaotic universe that is destiny
The winnower is akin to the gardener. It works the same way just opposing each others ideals. The winnower is most likely the veil just as the gardener is for the traveler.
We now know the traveler literally cannot speak to us thanks to ergo sum. It can give us tools at times but we have to choose how to use them, we have free will to guide us. The witness only happened because they found the veil after becoming dissolutioned with the traveler and the winnower/veil blessed them with the dark and the rest is history.
The witness was but the first knife the first piece moved in the great game. We have no idea where Bungie will take the narrative next because episodes isn't gonna be the end of destiny. Echoes is building towards a greater conflict in the future with the permanent alteration of the traveler.
@@loopygordo I know they said that in the cutscene but I see them (veil and traveller) more like the Jesus or Allah of the destiny universe where they are birthed by the gods and are a materialised version of the true being
Also why would a being that existed before time, be buried in a planet?
I don't think Elsie timeline hopping was ever actually explained, was it? Maybe that was actually the Gardener moving her in order to try and bring about the chain of events that eventually has life win and defy the final shape theory forever.
Or the Nine. Or Efrideet secret colony
I think Else's timeline hopping is derived from Vex tech. The lore tab from No Time To Explain talks about Clovis going into a Vex pod and retrieving the weapon from the future.
@ChaaDubaItsIidan in the lore tab where we actually see the switch happen, it didn't seem like it was intentional on her part. Almost like a groundhog day scenario. "Welp, the universe is beyond return at this point, time to reset."
Here is a thought, Savathun is in this version of the game the inevitable shape that will become dominant above all, not her personally, but her ideology, which she has been working towards. Savathun sees the Winnower and the Gardener as two gods playing with the lives of those innocent inhabitants of this universe, and her final goal is to "kill" those gods and remove their influence all together.
I love this because it makes her a super compelling anti-hero. From her perspective, we're a bunch of whiny buffoons with no vision for what's truly at stake in the universe. Meanwhile she has a person gripe with being beholden to a higher power and her motivation makes perfect sense. She mocks us because she thinks we're idiots, and it makes perfect sense why she thinks that.
Can't wait to hear the lore! Going to watch Byf's first
Bro the silver tree stump i thought it was a wall the whole time man
I distinctly remember BYF going on about the flower game back in D1
nah
Had a theory brought up about the Traveler and Veil the other day on Byf's or Myelin's channel.
Take a look at the Veil. Behind the purple lava lamp are roots that seem to encase a spherical shape. It's not too odd to want to place the traveler inside those roots.
But the Traveler fled when the Precursors wanted to combine the two. Why? What would happen if the two entities combined? What benefit(s) does the Traveler see in not combining with the Veil? Maybe that the Gardener wins and the Winnower loses?
Basically, Traveler + Veil = Tree of Silver Wings. What the effects of recombination would be, we have no clue. Perhaps the annihilation of the universe as we know it, or a restart.
I don't think I'll ever get over just how damn good Brett Dalton did as The Witness, he sold the character perfectly. I'm honestly kinda bummed we might not see much more, if any, of The Witness, such a great and truly unsettling villain
Light and Dark are tools/powers.
Traveler and the Veil are the conduits of said powers.
Gardener and Winnower are the cosmic Dieties of Destiny.
There are powers that are beyond light and dark, and there are many other worlds outside of Sol.
Savathun is teaching is how to do what the witness does. Which is to bend the rules of the "gods" to our will, our final shape. Thats what the Witness has done all by itself.
The Traveler made the ghosts, which IS the cheat code for the game of light vs dark.
All things that live MUST die. And the Traveler is denying death by giving immortality to guardians and those chosen by the light, i.e the Hive.
The Winnowwer is literally chilling. Wherever life breeds, death follows. That was the cycle of the game.
We are falling into the Winnower's hands. Playing the game it wants us to play. Prismatic is another step; wielding both Light and Dark at the same time. We are the shining example of its perfect logic. We are the Sword Logic incarnate; We are the Final Shape. Aiat MF!
I don't think you understand words
This is the nerdiest most cringe thing I’ve seen today
Agreed
@@ginosko_Entire destiny lore is a cringefest
@@ginosko_he’s got tex as his pfp. No way he can he cringe, right??
It honestly boggles my mind that suddenly everyone is surprised that The Winnower/Darkness is real even though we've already had confirmation of that.
We’ve had confirmation that the darkness was real (obviously) but only now were we given true, undeniable evidence that the winnower/ the gardener/ the flower game is real.
Big thing is in one of the final shape lore pages, a being who has very similar mannerisms to a being that talked to oryx once, spoke to us directly. Notable quotes towards oryx were "oryx my man, kick back and relax". This same being seemed to be speaking to us directly talking about the flower game a bit and how wide the universe is, and that the witness, its "necrolite" was kind of just thrown to the side after the "knife" started acting speaking using the wielders voice, but wasnt following what the wielder wanted it to do, i think its safe to say this being could be the winnower, and if so, portraying it as a chill, talkative being, that seems understanding about everything, but still has motivations that are kind of sinister is a really good base line for it.
If you're refeering to that "leaked" excerpt of potentially the Winnower talking from raid lore, that was a fake someone spured up from YT comments
@@BrazarB Then il do good at fact checking hearsay from now on, havent delved into the raid lore yet since ive been too busy so was hoping id find it there, but either which way id hope the being that did speak to oryx with such mannerisms was the winnower or this eldritch being we are supposedly speaking to in heresy.
@@happypie1362 the raid lore mainly focuses on the Witness & it's people, I hope whatever it is in Heresy isn't the Winnower, & something new instead or old, like Akka coming through the Dreadnought
@@BrazarB I'd very much like for iot to be something entirely new, delving into the old gods from the void would be a fun plot thread, also following up on whatever savathun intends to transcend into to rival the gardener and winnower leading into whatever frontiers is would be interesting aswell.
@@BrazarB link proving this?
What a distinguished gentleman when he read " unvailing " 🧠
I think it goes like this winnower>veil>witness and gardener>traveler>gaurdian
Yeah, I don't think the Winnower and Gardener are actually in the 'game' so to speak but put the pieces that represent them in it, i.e. Viel for Winnower and Traveler for Gardener.
@@urazz7739 yes exactly im not sure we will ever see the winnower or gardener in game but i think the veil and traveler were put into the galaxy to enact there will and further the flower game
Byf is a wonderful lore channel. I've been following him for a while now
I’m quite curious what’s coming next after the Light and Darkness saga, because I can’t imagine Destiny without it. Considering the two are fundamental laws of the universe and the manifestations of it's creators, I don’t see how anything can be more important
THe Witness also states it's origin in Excision again:
"We are the First Knife that caved Purpose into being!"
the traveler is reffered to as the gardener several times. This means the veil must be the winnower. Which makes sense because the progenitors used the veil to become the witness, they became its first knife.
"Winnower" would be an entity that could never be killed. Only quelled. Like yin and yang, both are needed but both cannot exist without the other. This is getting juicy.
I’ve been calling a stump “plateau” for so long
"cannot tell the knife which shape to carve" so basically the witness also makes his own fate
What if, by always running to save the Traveler, we are, in fact, becoming the first actual knife. Guardians this season have become more powerful than anything in the universe. This is why the Witness was trying to recruit us. We are more powerful than even him, which was achieved by being the strongest, lore wise Guardian in the galaxy. Our Guardian is referred to as "I pivked up that one Guardian you Vanguard keep talking about." (conversation between Amanda and Ikora in the Red War campaign).
Furthermore, it is stated in the Unraveling lore book that in the flower game, a dominant pattern always emerges. What if we are unknowingly playing right into the end game as being the dominant pattern that keeps coming up. Most Guardians do like to DPS with swords, and we did get the Ergo Sum recently. 😊. Maybe I'm just blowing smoke? Love your vids, Cross. Keep it up. ❤
Resume: So basically, compared to the MCU, Savathûn is Loki, the Witness is Thanos, The Taken/Tablets of ruin, Traveler and Veil are the Infinity Stones and Winnower an the gardener a celestials. I think...
the winnower says the gardener brought us (the guardian) to life and that it made a stand over earth, two things the traveler did so
@@dankerbell I still think that the traveler and the gardener are different things. Like the traveler, the moon/satellite and the gardener, the entity represented as the woman in white clothes and/or the eagle of concepts that somehow resides within the traveler. Which, in fact, is exactly the concept of the Eternals, the Celestial within the Earth.
The Winnower is the Veil, it isn't some grand villain manipulating things
@@U000415 Except there's multiple lines of dialog from different characters stating that the Traveler is the gardener
@@BrazarB feels really weird for the witness to imply the winnower is somehow out there somehow and it is just a knife of the winnowers, when it just used the veil as a tool to get inside the traveler.
I knew it! The witness was just miniboss.
i hope you watch his one on ergo sum, the more people that aware of the traveler as a character and its perspective on things, the better
Yo this is the 2nd Cross video today I didn't get a notification for. UA-cam, get your shait together
Maybe the end goal with the winnowed isn’t to kill it, but rather to convince or prove to it what the gardener was saying, that while we (the guardians and sol system) aren’t the strongest the universe has ever known, but that we are still capable of making our own grand destiny in spite of that and accomplishing great things
I have been saying since WQ that it was the Winnower, not The Witness, that spoke to Oryx, but Byf, and all the lore casuals said it was the same thing now just because Savathun said "the same power as the Witness" but she never said he learned it from Witness.
Also, the Taken aligned with The Witness have slight visual vfx change since TFS dropped, where they have a reddish orange glow in their faces. Oryx Taken do not. Thus adding more credibility that it was the Winnower that granted Oryx his power. Oryx has been, and will remain my favorite villian, still steeped in mystery all these years later. Cannot wait to go to the Dreadnought in Heresy.
"What you call 'Light' is the limit of your evolution"- Oryx
That taken subclass gonna go crazy
Please accept gratitude from me for the effort and hard work done by you to decipher lore for us.
On second thought this looks to me our story, I don’t see much colliding with our major religions.
A huge congratulations to Bungie on making a video game on such delicate and sensitive matters and passing on the message.
The more I think about it the more I dwell it feels to me real or close to our realities.
Pls if any statement of mine offends anyone, ignore it and consider it just a thought with no purpose an assumption. I do not want to disrespect any persons religion and beliefs. Thanks
Dude, we(our guardian) have eliminated every single being that opposes us. We've been enacting the Winnower's final shape. We're probably the Winnower's favorite.
I saw a theory that the Winnower is actually the veil and that kinda makes sense at first but when you think harder it makes less sense, because if it was then how come it took so long for the witness to find it if it was getting orders from it, and also if it is the winnower then why didn't it try to link itself or something like that, idk but im not sure I agree that the veil could be the winnower but there is a possibility and it does make (a little) sense.
One question? If someone can answer thank you!
So... The Exotic Sword Ergo Sum? Is The Traveler(Or Gardener?) in the Lore description talking about it's "existence" to the point it has a "sword" and that sword is The Guardian?
Yeah I think the heirarchy rn is
Gardener/winnower-> traveller/veil-> witness/ guardian
@@Grassdia OOOOOH... Wait. By hierarchy?
Like Gardener/Traveler/Witness
And Winnower/Veil/Guardian.
Side by side? If so The Guardian doesn't have a purpose relating to the Gardener's side? Or we just don't have enough information where The Guardian plays a part in this "game?" Between the 2?
@@tngaming50 witness and guardian are the other way around mb
@@Grassdia Gotcha bro 💯
22:54 Yes! Team up with Byf!!
The one who spoke to Oryx, said "Oryx MY friend". It said MY, not our but my. The Winnower was the one who spoke to Pryx.
19:37 y’all don’t understand time. Time is just the measurements not a force so indifference is no time. Like staying still or not changing. It’s only delaying the inevitable. Maybe all the things the witness said was a reflection but it couldn’t see it but kept revealing it. A witness because it can’t be anything else.
Back to the thought though, so we can’t kill indifference unless we use understanding aka shine light into the darkness and become one with the winnower but see the parts that we didn’t see before and we weird both sides but expand into the frontiers. Look at the portal when you hover over the traveler when picking a destination, the image changes so maybe the traveler will make real alternate dimensions kinda like how the veil is the darkness and the traveler shines light into the darkness of multiple dimensions entangled. This could mean the multiverse or the more relative like the hive throne worlds. Pocket dimensions that the understander can use like how a planet is like a pocket of crossed dimensions.
Matches against you in Crucible the other day, and it was a damn good match!
Greetings guardians! My name is Josue here. I remember a that in some lore it talked about someone More evil than Oryx, and that someone gave the power to Oryx.
I like to think that the Traveler is a created being, not the Gardener. Instead, it’s the piece the Gardener added to the Flower Game; hence, its lack of omnipotence (which I feel the Gardener and Winnower would have). Some folk I know say the Winnower is the Veil. I view it the same as the Traveler: a created being. When we talk of “gods,” we should think of something that doesn’t rely on anything else to exist. A god would be reliant on itself to be. When the Witness says “your Gardener,” I think it’s referring to the higher deities of the game’s universe.
You maybe right about year 11. Coleman frontiers? Getting Star Trek vibes. Also the final cutscene when crow is telling you about the remaining threats in order…from savathun, Nessus, eramis and fikrul, ending with xivu. But then says the most worrying thing is the aurora coming from the traveler..maybe it grows and gets worse and we need to leave earth…leave sol..to new frontiers
The wildest part of this video is how long that encounter in the exotic mission took to complete.
every time we "solve" a problem its like a temporary bug patch
Whats even crazier, please think about this. In that line "Gods forged us both. But they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve" We were also forged by gods, and we , our guardian, are also the knife. 🤯
Dude we need to see a raid squad with Cross and Byf. Make it happen!
evil can not exist without good, shadows dont exist without light and wise versa, life and death cannot exist without each other, everything in the universe in shaped in a circle one way or another, the final shape is a circle, the circle of life. lol i dk. but its a good thought thou. love these vids from byf with aztec, you guys need to hook up for some raid lore hunting
That looks like the mountain in the movie Close Encounters lol
The reactions of the Winnower when the Gardener suggested the new rule convinced me that the Winnower is not evil. In this particular dialogue, the Gardener seems more chaotic or evil than the Winnower because the Gardener doesn't seem to know exactly how this new rule will play out and makes both the Gardener and the Winnower part of the game that can cause more suffering. Maybe the Gardener feels soory for the live that is lost and want a rule change to make it perhaps eternal or something like that. Or the Gardener was simply bored, whatever the truth is, the Winnower really seems to be uncomfortable with everything and makes him very relateable. It's like back in your childhood if you play with your friend and the friends makes up new rules to annoy you because you win too often. This seems like this but on a universal scale. I don't know but the Gardener seems very irresponsible.
the Winnower represents death and the Gardener life.The Gardener new rule are ghosts that grant inmortality so from the Winnowers perspective this is cheating.
We will BECOME the winnower, it is our DESTINY
I mean at the end of the day, the Winnower has a point. All life flows back to the Final Shape. In us beating the Witness, we proved that we deserve to live. It’s like the mf proved a point…
Bungie has been playing a game of chess and we have always been a few moves behind. The lore is so much deeper than people realise but only now are we getting some but not necessarily all the answers after 10 years
Makes sense to me…. A good Gardner does what to the branches of the bushes?
The bosses get scarier and scarier 😳
This will be the plot of Destiny 3, the fight against the Winnower.
Next raid has us organizing all of the raid symbols in chronological order to tell the story of destiny’s universe from start to finish
If The Witness is a disciple, and the first disciple of the winnower, what if the speaker was a disciple of the traveler? The speaker wasn't the first after all. But what if we became the next disciple of the traveler?
In the lore text he said they put themselves in the game so tht mean the veil nd traveler are representions of cosmic beings.
I feel like the end game or final shape is all ghosts cease to exist and all guardians die, everything resets.
This is actually terrifying to think about…. If the Witness is just one of the Winnower’s “knives”, then what does that say how powerful it actually is?
I feel like the witness was maybe one of the 9 it makes sense, there 1 witness and 9 other of the nine and then there The Winnower and The Gardener. The 9 beings picking sides of what they want in the universe Good or Evil. it would make sense there warriors of the beings. The Witness and Xur, and others that we have not seen yet, let alone The Gardener and The Windower.
This is cool but if not written well could be a problem. Its like them introducing the witness years into the story and saying hes the big bad all over again but now its the winnower. Still would be very interesting to see where light and dark originated from and what their end goal is.
BAHAHAHAH I LOVE THE TAKE AWAY AZ, i too hope morgan freeman is joining the D2 verse
It would be nice if the overarching enemy is like a future or evil variant of us the player. Just spit balling for ideas of d3
My theory? The guardian is the outlier in the game between the Gardener and the Winnower. And its the Guardians destiny to unite them both and restore balance to the universe. Thus becoming legend.
Thats why we never lose. Thats why we unified both light and dark into one with prismatic. Thats why the vanguard has us do everything. And the Gardener knows this im sure. The Winnower is officially now taking us seriously and will be interacting with us for killing the Witness.
But it all makes sense. The Guardian is the final shape. The 1 piece on the board that neither God has true control over. We essentially enact the Sword logic everytime we win a battle.
Except we're not winning these battles to prove we're powerful, we're winning to prove that humanity has a role in the grand scheme of the universe. And that everyone has a right to live out their existence how they choose. And the only time power needs to be shown is in the face of adversity.
Even if you relate it to God and the Devil, God never interferes. Only provides the means. Its up to us to find our way. Whereas the Devil seeks to control. Manipulate. Change. He thinks he can control existence, but his downfall, and the Winnowers downfall, is that existence is not meant to be controlled or shaped by anyone other than the person granted the gift of existence.
And thats why we will become legend and restore balance to the universe. And end the game.
We need a Byf/Cross colab now
Lol i lost it when he said "Morgan Freeman is out there."
Get Byf run through that raid Cross! Let's carry thy Lore Lord!
Damn, The Traveler and the Darkness are gifts of the winnower and the gardener, basically.. and we are fighting a war that is simply a game for the Gods, that's some deep s***
So that's why the Traveler is a silent god.. cause is just a tool, not the Gardener itself.
Isnt it interesting that when the precursors and Maya Sunderesh approached the Veil, they came to a similar conclusion to merge many minds into one?
We basically in a game between two primordial beings with 2 different ideals 😭😭😭
I'm saying it here 1st the power to take will be our 3rd darkness subclass
My theory is simple, the gardener and the winnower are cosmic beings/gods playing a chess game , the following are just some of the pieces, the witness,the traveler,the veil,orix, the nine,the vex and others im forgetting or not in the game yet, both the winnower and the gardener interfere in some ways like creating the Vail/ the creation of the witness and the traveler/the creation of the guardians.
You got me thinking there!
Hold on, it may just look like this….
The Gardener: “I got your Queen piece!”
The Winnower: “Agh! That was my favorite one!!”
(When the Guardian killed Oryx”.
The Winnower: “But guess what, I got a pawn to your base tiles, now I have a new Queen”.
(When the Guardian became a main interest for the Winnower).
The Witness: “Dad, this game sucks!”
The Winnower: “nah ah!
The Witness: “Ah ha! And I’m gonna glue your stupid pieces to the stupid board!”
The Gardener: “Kid, you lost your damn mind!? Chess pieces, get him!”
*the son is viciously torn to pieces by chess pieces*
(The events of the Final Shape).
"(Redacted), YOU are 'the final shape'." -- Durandal, A.I. Overlord, 3XXX
The winnower probably gonna be the very final antagonist in the series
the booty bots beat me damn
All this discussion just keeps making me think of the reapers from mass effect.
Dude… what if the guardian is the final shape? What a paradox tho created by the traveler but becoming what the winower ultimately wants. The strongest being in the universe wielding both light and dark together and we’re wiping out everything that comes across our path so far too.
It took Destiny's creators this long to get back to the lore? Sheesh........we who left when Destiny pivoted may just return now. I'm very happy to see this return.
My question is that is the traveler the gardener? In that case what's the veil?
There is another “Lore Scholar” called Evaze that came up with this report 2 days before Byf video. All that same but a bit sooner and more to the point.
If the winnowers the devil weve been fighting kaine as michaels supplicant. Theres something MUCH BIGGER going on
Curious if calus saw visions from the witness or the winnower.
So.... it's basically Lost? Black/White, Jacob/Smoke Monster....
When I think of Gods I’m thinking like Dragonball Super, like what do the Gods and Angels do? Just fuck around because they’re OP, they’re all-knowing, the highest tier of the food chain. That’s why I think it was sort of a cop out in Resurrection F when Golden Frieza blew up the Earth and Whis who was an Angel, just reversed time so it didn’t happen. He meddled in human affairs, something deities don’t do. Would the Winnower even fight us? Maybe if we pissed it off, but it’s so strong it doesn’t need to or even prove anything to fight back. I mean if Destiny is going into the realm of god territory now this’ll be sick, subclass wise 😳
What if… we gained the power of the gardener to defeat the winnower and upon defeating the winnower we absorbed its power to coexist with the power of the Gardener in one entity? This would technically balance light and dark. Thoughts?
I think trying to kill the Winower is like trying to kill the idea of death