So, What's Up with Deep Space 9?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 чер 2024
- I've always loved Star Trek. So why didn't I love DS9 when I first watched it? Why do I love it so much now? Let's find out.
Edited by GoodL ( / irlgoodl )
Captions graciously provided by Poppycock ( / insnsal )
All music used is original, created by me (please, hold your applause)
Links
Twitter: / iconforshort
Twitch: / iconforshort
Patreon: / iconforshort
Sections
00:00 - Content Warning
00:21 - Intro (The Original Series)
02:01 - The Next Generation
07:58 - Deep Space 9
10:56 - Colonialism and Imperialism
14:48 - Sisko's First Day
18:20 - Empty Promises
21:59 - A Lie from the Beginning
24:41 - No Easy Answers
27:57 - Outro - Розваги
Well done. You brought up many interesting and valid points, although some were a little heavy handed. Star Trek TOS and TNG were meant to show idealism or utopian world views. DS9, took a more, realistic look at how the world really functions.
Isn't that the whole problem? Subverting expectations for 'realism" sake. No actual "Trek" in it's Star Trek.
@@Luciphell it’s easy to be a saint in paradise
I fucking love DS9, and this was a fantastic video thanks for making it 💖
I feel the same. I relate to all those characters on that show, even the broken and bowed.
In my view, DS9 shows us a more possible future than any other Trek series.
The hardest thing to take out of our future is human nature. TNG's humanity may be a possibility, but that may be a century or more after DS9.
What Quark says it all:
Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes.
As sci-fi goes, DS9 was as real as it gets!
24:21, "Where TNG shows us the heights of what humans are capable of, DS9 shows us the consequences that idealistic vision often ignores."
Sisko had a powerful speech in the Maquis 2-parter about the disconnect between the Federation and the colonies. "You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise."
DS9 is my favorite Star Trek show because it grew and evolved. It wasn't as static as all the others. Also, its more serialized nature allowed larger themes to be explored.
Sisko can hit ya with his words as well as his fists!!
The same thing Western people do. They look outside the window and ignore the evil they do outside the west
Let’s also not forget Michael Eddington accusing the Federation of being no better than the Borg.
Or Garrak and Quark talking about how the Federation is insidious.
DS9 is for the veterans of the Trek series. I massively underrated it until a revisit so many years later. xD
But then you wonder actually, is that correct lore wise?? I mean in retrospect. Think about it. Earth is a paradise, post scarcity society. With Replicator technology etc, basic needs for shelter and food are all taken care of. Why would the Federation NOT be able to replicate similar paradises on any colony they establish?? Why suddenly would all the difficulties of the past rear their heads? A bit odd when you think about it.
The Maquis is more a victim of eminent domain and not colonialism. Federation citizens are being asked to move for the sake of a brokered peace. They could petition their government for redress. Indigenous people could not as a third party was attempting to take their land and not their government.
Great video, I appreciate the effort that went into it. TOS and TNG had a GREAT impact on my life when I found them in 1991, and I'm just glad I experienced the whole 7 years of Deep Space Nine when it first aired here in Germany in the nineties, when the Star Trek universe was still mostly uncharted for me. The novels I read, fanzines, friends and meetups ... great memories. :-D
Very insightful! Thank you for creating this video exposé. :-)
Excellent video! I saw scraps of TNG while growing up, but didn't ~get into~ Star Trek until DS9. It's far from perfect but there's just... something about it. I love my terrible space station family. I love how nobody likes each other at first. I love that DS9 makes time for characters like Garak and Quark to chat about how bonkers the Federation is without any humans around to disagree and it's one of the best scenes in the entire show. I love that Garak *exists*. I've heard DS9 variously described as wild west jewish prophet deliverance post-WWII space opera office spy drama and I love how that's all, somehow, accurate. I love how it asks questions like “during occupations do ‘comfort women’ inevitably become collaborators” and “is it okay to kill people to save the galaxy from other people” and “when religion decides bad things are okay what should you do about that religion”. Basically every major character finds themselves opposing/fundamentally disagreeing with their own culture at some point, sometimes irreparably. Sometimes doing the wrong thing is the only thing you can live with. And sometimes there's baseball.
I ended up watching TNG second, and the idea you eloquently summarize, the pure vision of the Federation as a white/colonial fantasy, was so obvious at times. The episode "Ensign Ro" absolutely scandalized me! Everyone learns their lessons in the end, but to see the Federation's automatic hostility at even a whiff of non-assimilation...towards a Bajoran woman wearing a small cultural symbol...while Bajor is at war fighting against Cardassian oppression...whew. Hits different! Hits real different.
When was the "Ensign Ro" episode in universe?? I thought it was after Cardassia's withdrawal from Bajor?? Also wasnt there another Bajoran who was with starfleet but died on an away mission whilst working with a cardassian as a comfort woman??
@@indianastones6032 so I'm pretty sure "Ensign Ro" (TNG 5x03) takes place before the Cardassian withdrawal from Bajor, but a better trek scholar could tell you for sure! My logic: DS9’s first episode came out right after TNG 6x10 and 6x11 when picard gets his full cardsssian treatment, and presumably picard and sisko meet soonish after that. Plus, the withdrawal is pretty fresh and raw when DS9 starts so I assume its more recent than over a full season in TNG's past. Better trekkies than I could probably confirm or deny though! I could have sworn there were lines in "Ensign Ro" about the war but can't remember.
@@hailonyourparade I'm tending to agree with ya logic as ya timeline makes sense. Still gives me an excuse to watch it again! Thanks
Really excellent video! I am so glad I found your channel ^-^!
You forgot about Geordi at 3:30 when you went though the senior staff.
I’ve been kicking myself about it ever since
I think it was a Star Trek show, but they stopped making episodes a long time ago. Before the towers fell. That was crazy and unexpected.
Really appreciate how you related the Star Trak series to our reality at the end there.
Thanks, Ash.
I had a similar journey with DS9, but for me the problem was I was watching it as it aired, and Babylon 5 was doing all the same stuff, only better. The technobabble resolutions to stories really stated to grate, and I just stopped watching at the end of series 6 and similarly gave up on Voyager around the same time. It was maybe 10 years later when I went back to DS9 and found that a bit of distance from the fan competitiveness and my burnout on Trek really helped me appreciate it better. It's definitely worthwhile to explore colonialism, religion, prophesy and realpolitik inside Star Trek, and DS9 did so admirably.
I cant stand B5 because of its theatrical look. I don’t know if it’s color hue but I just dont like how it looks. I will have to give it a chance someday.
I LOVE DS9, had zero time for Babylon 5... Seemed like a ... Jim Henson production... Kind of... puppety.., or like the people in Drama class... DS9 they just seemed like... they were who they were playing... I may revisit Babylon 5 someday though...
@@volkhen0 lol I didn't read it until after, but my comment almost mirrors yours... Isn't this the show that has the weird guy fringe/peacock head thing? I'm remembering a peacock fringe head thing... Just took it self too seriously, for how it looked... DS9? They ... acted like they looked, they just _were_ that...
yeah, and thats not even on thewriters, but studio execs did.
“That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing? Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.” - Garak
The maquis were colonizers being told by their Homeland they couldn't colonize where they were currently colonizing. There are actually no good guys in the three-way argument between Starfleet the Kardashians and the maquis. But they were all Starfleet citizens, with some bajorans who joined up after cardassia left beige or, so Starfleet did have a political reason to want them to stop fighting the cardassians
Thought some marquis joined cus how they were being treated by the cardassians amoung other things?
Excellellently articulated ideas. Great video.
This is a Top 10 Star Trek video of the year. Thank you for this video.
JEEZUZ!!!!! This video was better then any class i took in school. Great work, bub
How did you leave out Geordi LaForge in the primary crew..the chief Engineer?
I had a similar experience with DS9 -- it took a while to grow on me.
Though now that I've finally got around to binging all the TNG-era series, Voyager is the one I identify with most, I think primarily because of the deep sense of isolation and my growing up with undiagnosed autism.
I am glad DS9 put more emphasis on cracking the veneer of patriotism of earlier series (it was touched on in TNG... the Drumhead for example). I want to say it was touched on in the original, but nothing springs immediately to mind.
And I know Voyager did as well, but the context was more with regard to their separation from the rest of the Federation and trying to maintain their ideals in a place where they lacked support.
Wow, I just admire your personal honesty and bravery. I identify most with DS9 because it dealt with the reality of what the UFP’s passive colonialism and multi-species would probably produce.
What must it be like to have autism undiagnosed? As a black person, I can’t even begin to understand what misunderstandings and bigotry you’ve had to live through. But belief me family, you are victor in the battle of life. If you can make these sorts of analyses, you are a leader for all of us.
@@Hellserch Thanks for the complement, Herschell.
@@WoohooliganComedy I will watch it. I have worked with people with this stigmatising label for years and can see clearly how the discrimination works. It’s destroyed millions of lives.
@@Hellserch I honestly don't think of that aspect of it as being the part that affects me the most. I do sometimes experience people being ableist or infantilizing me and obviously I find that annoying, but I'm usually much more worried about my own tendency to accidentally insult people. Anyway, I noticed another channel subscription, I'm guessing you. Thanks again! And let me know if I can help with anything. I'm a big proponent of mutual aid.
@@WoohooliganComedy Thank you for explaining this to me. I will take it on. Often identification with others travails doesn’t equip us to truly understand where that person stands.
A Touchscreen is not necessarily more progressive or futurist than a physical input. It depends on where it is used. There is a reason why Nintendo tried to Patent buttonless gamepads but never built them. And why for many complex games, Touchscreen input is terrible.
And a physical device lets the user feel they pressed a Button. A click on a Touchscreen does not give physical Feedback.
And touchscreens are more Prone to errors (while needing more time to compute the input). You will often see a Smartphone which was put into a bag, accidently having opened some apps you did not intend.
And with Touchscreens, physical damage to one Area can fastly Destroy everything else on the device, while damage on one physical button does not effect other buttons
Thus, giving controls over torpedoes or the warp core to physical buttons instead of a Touchscreen makes sense.
Picard is ideologicaly possesed by the Federation ideology.
Sisko is a pragmatic flawed human.
And everything he does ends up being the right decision most of the time.
As Sisko himself said: “It’s easy to be a saint in Paradise.”
"They tend to be less noticeable as the series progresses." As it progresses farther and farther past "Code of Honor"
Thank you for making this video! Subscriber well earned my good sir. I love ds9 and videos like this so your vid made my day! I watched it while I drank my morning coffee - the highest honor I can bestow upon a work of art!
ps, hope to see more content like this from you (Im hoping for trek, but will watch whatever u make im sure of it), clearly u have a talent for this type of video 👍
I really liked DS9, once I got into it. It is different from the other Star Trek shows that precede it because people had more rounded personalities. It's not just Lor= bad, Data= good (I know, they're androids & I'm generalizing). Sisko is not a perfect man, and he approaches situations as a normal, stressed human with background in tragedy, professionalism, and being a family man. He wants the best outcome, esp for his son. He wants to care for the Bajorans, but ends up having prejudice against the Ferengi. And all the other characters have similar complexities, including the Ferengi.
I do like the original series and tng. But DS9 progressed to a more realistic situation. You will never have perfect agreement between peoples. And if we ever encounter aliens, their needs and desires could be immensely differ from ours. If we can't get along with our relatives, how can we get along with others that are dramatically different? Maybe it's a good thing to explore this now, before we meet aliens?
This was POWERFUL dude. I love it. Well spoken my friend.
The whole thing is like The Next Generation is The Joshua Tree and Deep Space Nine is Achtung Baby. DS9 is better because it’s way more down-to-earth and exposes the darkness.
I think the TNG and DS9 visions were both true... Starfleet upheld its principles through MOST of the galaxy, but there were areas and avenues where its principles were more challenged than elsewhere. it took liberties there, but not in MOST places.
Voyager is to me the interesting one, because it is in many senses the reconciliation between these two - a crew that acted principled despite being challenged on every front. way more so than the TNG crew ever was.
That was really well done!
What a great reflective piece of thinking you have done here. You are balanced and challenging in your romp through a dense and fractious following. It’s people like you and another commenter on your channel who should be writing tv sci-fi now.
I am 57 so was hurled into STO from age 7 and never looked back. When I was kid, just to seeUhuru on that bridge swelled me with pride.
Roddenberry’s vision was never fully realised and we both recognise that. Many people I knew automatically rejected even the notion of STNG on ironically, conservative views of the what Star Trek meant. The problem I still have with everything since the original is that questions about nature of being and truth, we’re at least attempted in the original and subsequently nothing really added to that.
DS9 irritated me initially with what I thought was a religiosity and hack spiritualism which I have always detested. But I realised that this was a family soap opera and I grew to love those characters because they were defined by events and their decisions. This may seem obvious but they did things I did not agree with but I understood their choices. STNG was not always consistent on that.
Section 31 is the reason I still accept Roddenberry’s vision. Even with the humanoidism of the UFP, we see the drive for survival at any costs that this organisation really represent. Ultimately, we are no better than any of our opponents in the Alpha Quadrant. In effect, the Dominion are right to despise our hypocrisy.
DS9 is my favorite Star Trek… But when I was younger, TNG was my favorite
Of all the different Star Trek series DS9 was my favourite.
I’m not sure if you and I perceive the different allegories of TNG and DS9 the same way. To me ds9 is not a slam on white supremacy. That would be too narrow. I perceive it as ends not justifying the means, indeed. But its hard to say Sisko isn’t justified when he has a child and Kirk and Picard did not. Its through the lens of a father who will do anything and everything. And walks the line as fine as he could, but is willing to cross it when the good-guy-system simply bares no results.
DS9 is "Dark Star Trek" done right, not all the new Paramount + shows with their caste cursing like 12 year olds
Data was head of operations. TNG didn't have a science officer.
I must’ve misremembered, cuz I could’ve sworn he was referred to as a science officer at some point. my mistake.
I actually prefer ENT to DS9 for multiple reasons, but 1 huge one was due to how well season 3 of ENT was handled. DS9 had a "tell dont show" approach during a lot of the Dominion War. They mention plantets or outposts being captured all too often without showing it. For example the capture of Betazed should have been huge, but its just said in passing as if it doesn't matter.
The Xindi war however showed step by step how Archer and the ENT got closer and closer to the Xindi and ultimately stopping the war and earths destruction. They showed them collecting info on the Xindinto track them, they showed them finding out who built the doomsday devive sent to attack earth (which plays a huge role in slowing down the new weapons launch in a future episodes), they showed them figuring out the importannce of the metal spheres in the expanse, and how it ties to a hidden enemy using the Xindi.
It was phenomincal how well every episode played into one another (even T'pols withdrawls). It's the best season of Star Trek ive ever seen. And going back to DS9's Dominion war is lackluster by compsrison. .
Great essay!
Good video, but historically you are going a bit Eurocentric. I concede that is at times understandable, but that line of thought leads to committing more harm in the present. For example South Africa and apartheid (yes apartheid is horrible), people pat themselves on the back for getting an invader to give up power. In reality they got an invader to give a different invader political power over the country. All the while the actual natives, the Khoisan are still not in charge of their actual homeland and a genocide seems to be in the future for the remaining colonists there
What the Marquis did wrong they should went to get help from others who could help theirs cause and regained theirs Land.
The Kardashians are not mad because they're looking for Cisco they're looking for their own warship a cardassian warship disappeared inside the wormhole
Okay in a true post-scarcity scism civilization there would be a lot more private citizens in space with ships
.. fuckin excellent observation .. thank you
Hmm oh the parallels
I'm still kind a miffed where they left Sisko.
Thanks for the general review of the series.
I could never get through the first few episodes for the very reason you stated in your intro; it's set on a Space station and interactions seemed forced unto it and not through purposeful proactive exploration. Also, there is a lot going on with each character much too quickly. The speed at which the writers try to ground the characters to the audience is a different speed entirely than Star Trek (Original and TNG). Where TNG introduces characters and personalities at a slower pace (i.e. more reserved, giving the audience time to develop an understanding of the characters) and then develops those characters throughout the episodes and seasons, DS9 seems to be all in your face with a smorgasbord of emotional baggage and biases that you are forced to absorb and accept/like(?).
I may give the series another look, however, and see if the wine (characters) age well
This video deserves at least ten thousand views
if you haven't enterprise actually has some very good moments. DS9 was so good though. Love it. Garak, Bashir, Dax, and Quark are among the best star trek characters in general.
Why isn't it on Blu Ray???????????????
Star Trek is based more on possibilities of real life, compared to Star Wars, which is more illogical fantasy. Both are great though.
Deep Space Nine is awesome that's whats up with it.
I know im 2 years late but the big thing DS9 showed was humans are still 💩. Sisko was a war criminal with low morals. I love the episode a pale moonlight.
Icon is longer than ash
correct
The senior staff of TNG is as fake as anything. The comraderie in TOS and DS9 is genuine.
I love the Next Generation but it needed more complex more drama more action
Still the best Star Trek series
I love all star trek, except the animated series, it never gets any better than deep space nine. I don't know if it really could.
I much prefer DS9 over TNG for many of the same reasons why you prefer the TNG.
This is actually very good. I remembered to like...
Ds9 is a very optimistic show, its justnot afraid to adress how mess and coplicated anything is really. Despita all that , itsstillhowing i most casesdoing the right thing, tat its good to do so, that it makes thedifference in most situation, it probably celebrates most cultural diversity.
The point is how people arent perfect but allthat different people at the end , even very flawed people, they can withstand that, and uplift each other in really tiough situations.
all the questioning nd b more realistic is toshow how the federation is flawed but its ideals, they win and help people be better, even there. Thats why iloke it, its ark and adresing that but in the end its still about idealism.
Whats up with DS9?? Its not being called terak nor, thats whats up my dear friend!!!
Good video, but if there's one thing Star Trek taught me it's that we should blame people for things their ancestors did. Just because you're white doesn't mean you're a bad person or that your opinion/perspective is any less valid than anyone else's.
That was a waste of time
I wish I could hear a recording of Reverend King speaking with Ms. Nichols.
Mostly because MLKs own associates have stated that there is no record of that call taking place and that Dr. King never even mentioned Star Trek.
did some checking, and as far as I can tell, there’s no credible reason to believe that this story is either apocryphal or false. Nichols had apparently been telling similar versions of this story since the late 1970s, and there’s no evidence at all contradicting her story. you can think it’s false if you want, but as far as I can tell, there’s no real reason to prefer believing that over believing that the story is true.
Bit of a stretch...
No
Your Federation citizen that lives on Earth your human can you have your own ship and you have your own holiday can you have your own phaser can you have a ship that alarm that has Shields and phasers as a private citizen so you don't want a cargo ship say you just want your own small hip that you want I like and I like a houseboat will Starfleet give it to you because you want it for your Federation citizen you want to go to Raisa to experience the jamaharon want to go to Ross and get a Horrigan just stick them out you know and just wait for the women to come can you do that how will you get to rasa
I would have tell Captain Picard that cuttlefish are not sentient beings the crystalline entity feeds on sentient beings it also strips living planets of all life it is a menace
I don't disagree with you on what you're saying about indigenous people and black people. They were treated terribly. They were treated awful but we weren't alive when that happened. That's been a couple hundred years ago. And to blame yourself for that when you weren't even in existence. Not even your great-great-grandparents were is just asinine and pointless
I feel this video is overly simplistic.
I often make fun of conservatives who have the “socialism is when the government does stuff“ take.
I feel liberals have a very similar Mindset around colonialism “colonialism is when geopolitics happens.”
Also the marquee sucks. They were a bunch of traditionalists Who strive to live without Federation influence, by moving to an isolated region and then expected the federation to sacrifice it Scientists inlisted men and officers fighting a forever war against a much weaker Weaker adversary to defend their land rights. If anything, the federation negotiating a peace treaty, and not just blindly defending the land rights of a small minority of traditional is more anti-colonialist as far as I’m concerned.
But have one of those colonies be a tribe of indigenous people and all of a sudden rational nuance goes out the window for most progressive. “clearly the federation bad because trail of tears”
True words. For me TNG was the best, too. I just can't stand Avery Brook's somehow very unnatural and brokenly way of speaking/yelling. In my humble opinion he doesn't fit the role at all and while watching the show I only see a very zealous actor trying to impersonate Sisko, but sadly never reaching the rgoal. Propably was the main reason why DS9 didn't work for me.
Parapsychology is not pseudoscience. You are very mistaken.
it’s been a while since I made this, so can you refresh my memory on where in the video I said that, and what specifically I said? I genuinely have no recollection of saying anything like that
@@IconforShort 2:50. You said that the original series had some odd pseudoscience and some blatant sexism. Ok, maybe you were referring to the episode where they brainwashed criminals instead of putting them in prison. You didn’t clarify what you meant exactly.
Shits tight right? (Not gonna watch the video)
Police brutality good job it's just science fiction and not a reality
i just started ds9, i must say season 1 up to episode 6, is utterly stupid. Wrtiers are at their worst,i hope it gets better.
did you see Duet? that's what did it for me. I knew I'd love it after that.
Don't judge any Star Trek show in season 1. They are usually always meh.
I hope you kept watching. I had the same experience, and "fast-forwarded" to a later episode. I hit the perfect episode which helped me enjoy the journey & it grew on me. I guess because it's so different, the first season is kind of exposition/finding their feet. There is important information in the first season, but the episodes get better by the end of the season.
ai voice..........unsubscribing
wdym this is clearly a real person speaking
wrong!
I like Sisko more than hypocrite Picard