Terrible Trains: Britain's worst rolling stock allocation
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- Britain has many, many classes of trains, and lots of them were designed with the routes they operate in mind. But not all of them. Indeed, there are some routes where the trains that operate them are so terrible that they really need a video being made on them... and here it is! The trains in question are:
-The Class 360s on London St Pancras to Corby (EMR)
-The Class 165/166s on Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour and the Westbury lines (GWR)
-The Class 387s on London King's Cross to Cambridge (Great Northern/GTR)
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#transport #rollingstock #trains
As a regular user of the Salisbury to Bristol service since c1980, I miss the Class 33 hauling mk1 coaches for comfort.
Multiple Units or Railcars as we call them in Ireland are great on short routes but terrible on intercity duties.
Coaches have the advantage of being able to added and removed as desired.
@fluggaenkoecchicebolsen Now that's just salty.
@fluggaenkoecchicebolsenmajor 3 inch energy from you.
I have been on 166s countless times from Bath to Cardiff, and I find them rather comfortable and pleasant. However, if they are not in a 3+2 configuration, they can be overpacked. 158s are slightly more comfortable, yet I prefer 166s and if GWR got a move on with refurbishment they would be even better. 175's are good trains and could probably move to GWR after TFW put their 197's in service.
As a person who has been on a 166 I agree
Traisn are allways designed for 2+2 config. You can see on the c2c 357s, the walkway is marked with 2 lines. Which the 3rd seat overlaps. This is dangerouse ss if someone passes out, the ambulance cant pick them out and has to pull them out by their legs.
@Train's 🚆 They 165 & 166 are not cleared west of Plymouth.
@@Ron_TTE Trains are not always designed for 2 + 2 seating for example some of the British Rail Class 499's did not have 2 + 2 seating.
@Train's 🚆 You have more capacity with 2+2 than with 2+3 seating.
Don't forget about perfectly suited 91s being replaced by ironing board IETs on a 4+ hour journey to Edinburgh!
As someone who fairly frequently gets the kings cross to Cambridge/Ely/Kings Lynn and I absolutely agree, the 387s are woeful
I don’t like 387s, but as someone who very frequently travels on the Kings Cross to Peterborough route, the 387s are streets ahead of the 700s. We are down to one train each way that is not a 700 and only 3 fast services each way instead of 8, so if you care to swap…🤣
Were the 365s any better? I've seen that they ride better from footage but did they have any other advantages?
@@Solomon_CI grew up with the 365s back in the first capital connect days, and they were far superior in terms of comfort and quality. Traveling on them between Cambridge and Royston, and From Royston-Stevenage, and from Rosyton-Peterborough and Kings Cross was fun. They are far better compared to the crappy 387s and the horrendous Thames link 700s which are terrible for long journeys. I went on a TL 700 from Bedford to Brighton in 2021 and it was hell! Nearly 3 hours of discomfort, even the 319s were better back when they were with thameslink
@@whatdoyoumeanbro4964 I've been on 387s and noticed that the ride quality was pretty awful. The 465s near where I live are quite smooth though
Lol, a certainly unpopular opinion but I like going on the hour long 387 service to King's Cross, it's a bit of a romp going down the ECML fast lines on a commuter train. The seats could serve to be a little softer but I don't particularly mind that all that much (though I suspect if I took it more often I'd care about that more, it's not my daily commute or anything). EDIT: Also, while the 365s did have better seats, if I remember correctly the air conditioning was much worse which I think is somewhat more important! A fun side note that I think is mostly specific to the electrostars: if you need to stay awake while returning at night a good way to do so is to sit underneath the pantographs (you can see where they are from inside the train because the roof is lower and there are no luggage racks) that way whenever the train goes through a neutral section you'll get a nice big clunk to wake you up again. Usefully there's one just before Shepreth Branch Junction (which despite the name is in Shelford) just a few minutes before the train arrives in Cambridge.
Turbos cannot run much further west, as they're built to a wider loading gauge (hence the 3+2 seating), and would require reconstruction of several platforms. They've already underwent ride height modification just because of the risk of fouling platforms, they only get tighter out west.
You've summed up the DfT perfectly. EMR kinda messed up their new fleets pre-covid, and now the customers are kinda paying for it. They didn't order enough 810s, they should've split Liverpool to Norwich at Nottingham, with TPE doing the West section, as they have apparently some 185s going off lease soon. The 360s look great externally now, but need an internal refurbishment desperately. Honestly first class is useless on any service that doesn't offer catering services, so it can be ditched for capacity in the future. I believe the plan was to fit the 810 seats in both the 360s and 170s, but because it wasn't authorised pre-covid, the DfT won't want to pay for it. Even an interior that is a similar to the 350/1s, with new carpets would be nice. The money for refurbishment should be on the table, especially as trains only 12 years old (395s) have just been authorised for a refurb. Another problem of the 360s is that they have no depot on the MML. They require drags to Northampton Depot, and can't get there on their own. This means that units are often out of service, and their reliability is not as great. A promised 12 car peak time service has now been cut to frequent 4 car services. The EMR 170s are all delayed from cascadements elsewhere, and has lead to a permanent retention of the 158s, that have had no new livery or any refurbishment. The 222s are falling apart internally, the seat covers don't look great.
Honestly I don't know how much people care about seat comfort, I think commuters will still use the train if it is a reliable service, quick and cheap.
And there is still more you could make things about, especially what is going on with the 379s / GNs 365 replacement, Southern's EMU shortages, the fact that the 387/1+/3s could be used on Southern, and the 379s to be a stronger fleet, and better layout for Great Northern. The 377/5s should go to Southern when they have the Southern moquette, and that can allow the 465/2s to return to sevice, and to allow the 313s to be finally relieved from their long service life. Southern may then be able to run longer trains, or reintroduce some Metro services they ditched since the 455s left. And then you have the 376 situation. Their interiors are completely worn, the seat covers are falling apart, the metal parts in it have worn off, and their paintwork looks shocking, as it has been 18 years since they left Derby. And at the same time the newer 395s get a refurb. And on top of that there was a microfleet added to the SE Metro fleet, which were 5 cars per unit, when Southeastern ideally want 4 car units as they can fit 12 car trains at most of their stations, and with modern ASDO, probably at every metro station.
Liverpool to Norwich would have been better split at Sheffield, as Sheffield is served by a lot of trains serving the north of England.
commuters don't really care about seat comfort agreed, but the maximum commute MUST be less than an hour. In my opinion Crossrail/ Elizabeth line is the maxmim commute distance that ironing board seats can be sued for. The GWR train seats are hell. iv'e done Cornwall to Reading on them and i was literally counting down the minutes. It was hell.
@@cameronallan5624 So you would be prepared to stay on an ironing board seat for over an hour and a half because that is how long it will take to between Reading and Shenfield on the Elizabeth Line.
The 360's do not need to be Diesel Dragged becuase Northampton is on the WCML and Both the MML & WCML are electrified and one of the linking lines is electrified so you can take them via the NNL from and to the MML/WCML.
@CPTrains The Liverpool to Norwich route should be handed over to Cross-country in full and rejoined together.
EMR have now announced they will officially be refurbishing their class 360s, 158s and 170s with 2+2 seating and charging points
165's are seen as a serious upgrade in parts of the South West. They replaced pacers with them.
The Turbo's Were a Good Replacement For Pacers 👍
@@DonaldTrumpIsGreat indeed, they were. Just a shame the pacer wasn't an upgrade on the 118's they replaced.
@@cccenturion4480 True 👍
Class 165s in general are fucking awful trains, they should be scrapped and written off instead of being thrown on long routes which would be more suited for intercity services. Man they’re even worse then the 387s on GWR
A simple rule never hate on that what the BR build and allways hate on that what was build after the Privatisation.
except the pacer, we're allowed to hate the pacer
@windowsxpnt2347 hell yeah.
As a person who has seen change with the Portsmouth To Cardiff from 158s to 166s I definitely prefer the 158s because I dont have to worry about standing in the doorways for half my ride or sitting in the luggage racks for half my journey
The 166's have actually been an improvement over the 158's on Cardiff-Portsmouth, as while the latter has some refurbished sets which are more comfy, they would only normally consist of 3 coaches which would often mean problems with overcrowding. Now on the line we regularly get 5 coach 166 sets which offer far more space even if the interior could do with a little extra tlc at some point. It's also worth remembering that before the 166's arrived, some services in this area were using 150 sets which were basically rusty tin cans which were unfit for purpose.
166's are fixed 3 coach units where as the 165's are 2 and 3 coach Units.
@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire Even so, we still get 5 coach sets, even if it's two sets joined together and that does make for a huge increase in seating capacity.
They have in terms of capacity but I don't think there comfortable enough for long journeys.
@@Paradice4Life Well until all the 165's leave the Thames valley they would not loss there 2+3 seats but the 166's could loss the 2+3 seating in a light refurbishment.
I can remember using 4SUB non-corridor compartment stock into Holbourn Viaduct, this was supposed to be six across seating! Mind you, the seats were soft and comfortable and rather better than what runs on that line now. I find the 165/166's more comfortable than the GWR IET's, which surely must be the most inappropriately specified train on GWR.
I worked on cl379s for 7 years and was responsible for reliability improvement between 2015 and 2017. During which time we made them the most reliable Electrostar ever. They are a good train and should not be scrapped. Although, they probably need an overhaul and refurb before being used again.
Very interesting, I had heard good things about their reliability. They do seem fantastic trains, it's a shame they're going to waste, probably the best Electrostars out there.
Used to take the Stansted Express to college at Stansted Airport from 2018 to 2020, thank you for keeping those lovely trains working for us 💙
You briefly mentioned 185 trains which Trannspenine are still using through Leeds- Manchester services. The company wanted 4 coach sets, but were not allowed to have and were told they had to have 3 car sets. Worst decision ever. Mass over crowding for years on these trains. Someone seemed to forget that Leeds City Station is the 2nd busiest outside of London with 18 platforms.
honestly that always struck me. Why 3 Car units? its not as if 185s are on quiet rural routes, they work out of (forgive me if I make a mistake) Leeds, Man Picc, neither of which are particularly quiet.
My vote goes to the Cross Country Voyager 220/221. No way an Inter-City train, short form and often dangerously overcrowded, a passenger environment suited to short distance inter-regional work, noisy, vibratory engines below the floor and regularly diagrammed on electrified lines wasting the infrastructure with miles of diesel under the wires working. Not fit for purpose.
The worst one I can think of has to be Fnidi sending Cardiff suburban 150s all the way up to Manchester.
All of these examples of misallocations are where a long-distance service is operated with a train that isn't sufficiently comfortable, but surely this isn't the only type of misallocation. I don't like finding 158s on inappropriate suburban services like Severn Beach or Maryhill, for example, or on important mainline routes like how they used to have them on the Standedge.
The 2+2 table areas on the turbos were originally 1st class for the Oxford/Thames valley runs. It was never removed
Yes I know, but:
1. It was removed on the 2 coach Class 165s
2. It's only a very small portion of the train's overall capacity.
@@GWVillager It was not removed on the 2 coach 165's in the Thames Valley which run the North Downs Line fast trains.
@@joshuaritchie3836 Oxford- Didcot shuttle are just 2 car 165s which are simply too basic and frankly too small
@@georgedowns4034 Some of the shuttles are 3 coaches.
@@joshuaritchie3836 never seen 3 car 165s at Oxford. Only saw paired up 2 car 165s on a particular strike day
And i've been on the class 387's on GWR on stopping trains between London Paddington and Didcot Parkway (my local station) I LOVE THE 387's
The 16x trains have also been moved to small non-electric branch lines. For example, Slough to Windsor and Eton Central, Maidenhead to Bourne End and Marlow.
Pacers got replaced by cascaded GWR 150s and 158s in South West thanks to them being moved because of electrification to Cardiff
Class 379s will be on London to Cambridge and Kings Lynn services
You missed one of the greatest sins of all. GWRs class 8xx trains. They look the part on the outside but are commuter trains on the inside. The seats are used by the Germans for commuter services, yet GWR are using these ironing board seats for intercity travel. 1 trip to Exeter and back to Paddington was more than enough to convince me to dive instead. I can not imagine going all the way to Penzance sitting in those seats. There is nothing about these trains that looks inviting, the lighting is harsh the walls are stark , the ride is not good enough and the build quality is shocking with wall panels rattling after just a year and a half in service . The fact they had the blue print over 40 years on what build it just does my head in .
The 80Xs aren't exactly great, and there are several problems with them, however I don't think they're too poor. The standard class ambience is much improved over the HST I think, and the greater legroom and table availability is much appreciated, as is the capacity. Not to mention the decrease in journey times from electric mode. They're not amazing, yes, but not terrible exactly.
New one! Class 444s on Haslemere, Alton and Basingstoke stoppers. South Western Express units designed for Portsmouth direct and Weymouth fast runs being used on outer suburban stopping services
Yet they'll carry on using 450s on the express services...
EMR have confirmed the refurbishment of the 360s over the next few years
As you said, Portsmouth to Cardiff is a busy route, and having 5 car trains instead of 3 car presumably improves the passenger comfort. I’ve only been standing on that service before, so although 158’s are a better train, with the stock they have, it is good to have the added capacity.
I do like your thinking of moving TFW 158s over. I assume 175s would need quite a bit of new training for staff
as others have said, the 166 on the cardiff-portsmouth line are a welcome addition running 5 car trains! I'd really like to see them introduce some more suitable stock though, maybe a electrostar in tri-mode configuration to make use of the extensive electrification. They do still run some of the nicer refurbished trains so it's a bit luck of the draw, recently lucks been better than early on.
edit: ok I hadn't made that trip in a while, today had a 166 towards cardiff, and a 168 back towards portsmouth. like night and fucking day. the 168 is far superior in every way
For the 166 those were Designed to Run London to Oxford Worcester via Didcot and Newbury via Reading pre GWML London Paddington to Reading Hayes and Harlington to Reading electrification. One advantage of a 166 over 150s is that those have ETH. Sadly the Ironing Board seats on 387/2s are also on IET.
The 166's were also designed to run the North Downs Line.
I think there's a potential for introducing the class 222 Meridians that will be released from EMR to operate GWR services from Portsmouth to Cardiff
This would be great! I loved travelling on the 222s for uni so having them on Portsmouth Cardiff would be an improvement in comfort and noise
Travelling on the Great Northern 387s is not only uncomfortable with those ironing board seats (these are used on the fairly lengthy Kings Lynn to London services) but the ride quality is problematic. At speed, the ends of the coaches rattle quite violently from side to side, as if the bogies are hunting intermittently. It can be quite disconcerting.
Ride quality is indeed an issue on many modern trains as well. Inside sprung bogies have been a broadly negative thing for the passenger I think, though I do believe the 387s are outside sprung, oddly.
Yes, indeed the 365s were far better when it came to ride quality.
Imagine getting off of one of those old carbunkles travelling from Portsmouth to Cardiff, and be faced with Trafnidiaeth Cymru's fleet of shiny new Stadler trains. England's privatised railways are getting shown up by the Government run Scottish and Welsh services.
Um, I believe Scotrail is Actually run by abellio 🤓
Problem with Nationalised railways is that progress is stagnant and when money needs to be saved guess what is the first thing that gets cut, public transport. Look at London at the moment but then again that is what happens when it ran but some one who does nothing other than spend tax payers money on cameras to tax people just for driving their cars and remove 1 day travel cards to hamper London tourism.
@@Cyborgdelta1 To be fair, the privitization scheme has only made things worse. The franchise holders are still paid by DfT to run the services, but given that most of them have monopoly power they can cut service and jack up fares up to whatever level DfT will tolerate. And the non-Franchise carriers are worse. Look at ECML for example. LNER, is by far the best carrier on the line and are the state run option at present, and are probably the best rail carrier in the UK at present. GCR and Hull Trains both have worse service for no cheaper than LNER, they just serve some branches that LNER does not. Lumo is barely cheaper than LNER, despite being a "low cost" option. It's not like the WCML where you have the AWC premium service, which is not cheap, but you get what you pay for and the LNWR, which is a legit low cost carrier that actually is significantly cheaper.
@ChilternTransportProductions mb mb
Yeah TfW ain't exactly a step up. The FLIRTs aren't the most common (they're still using 150s and 153s on Commuter Belt services between Gloucester and Maesteg) and their timeliness is... shocking more often than not.
Welp it's 2025, GWR are leasing the 175s, Great Northern are replacing some 387s with the 379s and EMR refurbished the 360s with 2+2 so good job 👍
7:47 yeah i really miss the 379s in their last days on the east anglia lines. They would use it as the stansted express one min, then on sunday for example operate a local service from stratford to bishops maybe. I even think it was used a few times for the new and very short service from meridian water - stratford.
My uncle drives the 387 for GN, and I think he told me they received some 379s recently.
Every time I ride from Portsmouth to Bristol I cross my little fingers and pray for a decent train. More often than not, my prayers go unanswered. Now I know what sort of train to direct my anger at. Thanks GWVillager!
I completely agree! I think GWR really don’t realise how busy the route gets and have missed an opportunity here. With the latest timetable change Wherre they introduce more frequent services between Salisbury and Bristol, the longer Portsmouth to Cardiff trains have been short formed again :( gwr needs more units 😂😂
the 165's have worked well on the Chiltern Line which I suppose is one of the main lines they were developed for. Getting a bit long in the tooth now though.
I'M IN THE USA: Sir if you're selling we will take it all
Just remember that Great Northern scrapped the Class 365s that were perfectly good trains with actually comfortable seats and lied about those trains having no aircon.
But the 365s didn't have air-con. The 165s did, but the 365s never had it fitted
Good news - in March, it was announced that the 379s are going to GTR.
A weird one is using Class 800s on the bristol to worcester route. The train stops at every station and can barely exceed 60mph on that route.
I used to enjoy train travel when there were comfortable seats alongside windows.
When airline seating was found in....Planes!
When ticket options were simple.
When trains had buffet cars.
When the railways were operated by railwaymen.
When was this?
It was before the DfT decided that they knew what was best for us (ironing boards and window pillars).
Those were the days of British Rail- sadly missed (including their sandwiches which were much better than today's offerings if you can actually get anything at all to eat on a train now)
On wikipedia, it seems the class 379s are in storage because no one will use them due to high leasing costs. I'm not in the UK so don't get rail leasing, but why after you have bought the train will you store it because no one will use it. Shouldn't the ROSCO cut the rolling stock costs until they get a bidder? Also, weren't the trains bought by the government using tax dollars, if so why can't the government just use them, demanding a reasonable lease rate?
These are the woes of not having a rolling stock strategy or "guiding mind". There's simply no-one to tell the trains to go anywhere, and if they're expensive they won't be used by anyone of their own accord.
Theres nothing worse than travelling to Oxford on a 165 Chiltern train 😭😭
To be honest having used Portsmouth to Cardiff trains between Westbury & Bath the 166/165s have brought a massive boost in capacity for the route but in the long term what is actually needed is faster and more comfortable trains. Either more Castle sets (never going to happen) or maybe more IET's but closer to what EMR have ordered like you said allowing the 165/166s to move down to Devon/Cornwall. I also don't understand why Chiltern doesn't have a more standard fleet and allow their 165s to move over to GWR. I also agree with the 379s on GN, allowing the 387s to all move to GWR.
I agree, a more permanent fix will be required soon. I seem to remember hearing somewhere that GWR actually intended to use Castle Class HSTs on Portsmouth-Cardiff services, but HSTs are out of gauge in Portsmouth. I presume the same is the case with IETs, the issue is probably more to do with weight than size.
Chiltern feels exactly the same way! They were quite keen on an exclusively 168 fleet but they’ve since gone out of production. There was a Chiltern document that referred to “any Class 175s in the fleet at the time”, which either suggests that they have their eyes on them to replace 165s/mk 3s or it was simply a typo of 165, which is somewhat less exciting.
@@GWVillager Interesting although I would like to see some of the Chiltern Mainline services replaced by GWR services IET's to give links to Paddington & Heathrow from Birmingham.
The issue with Turbos not being fully cascaded down yet is due to massive issues with the tri mode capabilities of the 769s. Once they are fully introduced all 166s are moving to Exeter depot
@@StaxRail They will still run the Portsmouth-Cardiff and Westbury services, which is where my objections lie.
@@StaxRail Unlikely because the majority are meant to be in Bristol, the 158s are meant to be for Exeter.
You didnt mention for the 360s that London St Pancras to Corby route serves Luton Airport Parkway and forms it’s own mini-operator. I dont get where luggage is meant to go, except for on thameslink trains with their owners
Worst one is the use of Class 345 as their lack of toilets, bins and the worlds hardest seats on long distances from reading to central london.
'worlds hardest seats'
you ever heard of a sxhool?
Have you seen the new concept design for the upcoming class 360 refurbishments? Thr interior unironically looks just as good as the 185s now
Fast forward to 2024 when all the 175s are going to Great Western 😆
From what I've heard, including family members that work for EMR, the 360s will get similar seating to that of the 745s, 755s and brand new 197s, interiors that seemingly everyone agrees are pretty good despite DfT directives
What's great is you said GWR should get 175's and they are but only for Plymouth to Penzance and at a push to go as far as Exeter. But that should free up 158's in that region to move upwards and take some of the Turbo's off Portsmouth to Cardiff runs in theory.
This might be the first recorded instance of someone using "class 222" & "passenger comfort" in same sentence.
Ha, they're certainly a bit worn at the moment, but they're not inherently bad trains when it comes to comfort. They're better than the Voyagers at least.
I quite like them. Travelled from Bournemouth to Birmingham on one and they were pretty comfy
@@sabersz that woulda been a 220/221 mate
@@ajf3202 people still hate them plenty, I've never had a problem with em
@@sabersz I agree that voyagers are ok, but the reason why voyagers are hated because they are very proned to overcrowding
I always thought once TfW's 158's should be leased to Northern along with East Midlands' 158's, this Northern can scrap 156's and reduce the number of types of trains they are running. The 165's & 166's could be sent west by taking 221's that Avanti is giving up. But a lot of the 222's should stay with East Midlands for their regional express the Liverpool to Nottingham (and reconnect with its other half to Norwich!)
I live in GWR territory here and the class 165/166 are ok anyway i rode one of these trains on the Marlow branch and it had luggage racks WHA- WHY LUGGAGE RACKS?!
Finally a refurbishment for the 360s has been announced. It's about time! Also the 175s might be going to GWR soon. Have you predicted the future?
Can I just mention the 165/166 are replacing the hsts from cardiff to Penzance on some routes, majority being 800s and very few being 158s, 166s and 800s have the worst seats
Honestly, i think if not the Dft us the main reason these trains are uncomfortable, if not the DFT then even the class 387 could have a higher chance of being refurbished with a more comfortable design and a more convenient first class
I would say, the class 803 on London - Edinburgh is a terrible choice. They have no first class, on a journey that’s over 4 hours. They also don’t have any catering facilities. And they’re only 5 coaches long, way too short for their route. Lumo really need to step up their game, because if they think that they can be “The New LNER,” then they really gotta do something about those bloody 803’s
They don't think they can be "The New LNER", that's the whole point. The 803s certainly need to be longer, but Lumo is a budget operator, and to get those low fares they leave out First Class and catering, which is usually less profitable.
The full range of turbos are a massive pain and are a massive step down from 158
I also think they should replace the Class 455s on the SWR.
They're getting round to it - eventually.
The 360s on the London-Corby route is bad, but it isn't even the worst EMR allocation. What about the 158s between Liverpool and Norwich?
156s even! That truly is terrible.
I would like to also say that the Class 220’s and 221’s just aren’t doing well with capacity on CrossCountry’s routes. They’re always rammed and have become VUC’s (a term I’ve come up with that stands for Very Uncomfortable Contraptions). The solution would be to order some Class 810’s. These have 7 coaches (more capacity compared to the 4 and 5 car sets we have at the moment) and if they turn out to do well on Avanti (more comfortable seats, for example), I think CrossCountry could be on to a big winner. What could possibly stop them?
Oh yes, the DfT…
Edit: I now realise I have mentioned the wrong class. It is EMR that is getting Class 810’s. The class I should have mentioned is the Class 807.
An ex-Wessex 150/2 which got the 2003 refurb has a better interior than a 165/166. These units are also now comprise the majority of the GWR 150 fleet with only a few units remaining with the original 3+2 interior. Swapping them out for turbos is not an upgrade IMO. Also pretty sure turbos can't operate west of Plymouth as they are too wide.
I am surprised you didn't mention class 172s on Birmingham to Hereford
It is very poor allocation, but at least it's changing, unlike the others.
The class 172s are remaining with wmt so I'm guessing that wmt will just always use either a class 170 or a 196 on Birmingham to Hereford
I regularly use the GW Turbos, i find it quite funny that essentially outer urban DMUs are being rattled along the XC mainline up to Worcester. Thr 165s are pretty near intolerable with very little leg room and no tables, while 166s are somewhat better with tables and generally a little roomier, also some of the 166s have been refurbished recently. That excluded, many of the turbos are in a pretty sorry state, but the carriage numbers are definitely needed around Bristol. On the topic of 387s, I had one the other day from Swindon to Paddington, which seemed a little inappropriate
I was expecting to see the EMR class 158 here, a busy working Liverpool - Norwich, thankfully is getting replaced with much better EMR 170 units! The EMR 158’s are fine! They are really nice interiors and quite a nice way to travel it’s just they can’t cope with the high demand for travel between Nottingham - Sheffield - Stockport - Manchester - Warrington - Liverpool, so 170’s should be good! They are also due to be refurbished so I’ve got no complaints for EMR in this instance!
I've also heard that 6 car allocations are coming in late 2024 for these services so that'll help with a lot of the capacity issues
175s are absolutely knackered from just years of neglect no operator wants them although the new mk5 sets have just come out of use hint hint
This sort of reminds me of the two occasions when I've had Pacers for cross country journeys. Once From Liverpool to Wakefield via Manchester, and once from Carlisle to Newcastle. Pacers might be tolerable for short journeys on lightly used branch lines, but not on such long journeys. Definitely a poor allocation!
Flipping the script, another poor allocation of units is Class 158s on the Maryhill branch in Glasgow. These comfy cross-country units are overkill for an urban commuter train. Ideally this line should be electrified, but as it stands a Class 150 would be perfectly adequate for this line. Of course the problem there would be that Scotrail doesn't have any Class 150s allocated to it at all, which is the reason for them using the 158s there. Many years ago these units could also be seen on the Whifflet route prior to electrification, but now the much more suitable class 318s and 320s can be found there.
another horrendous rolling stock allocation that I am surprised you didn't mention is the class 385s on Edinburgh to Glasgow express services. ironing boards that's terrible for the flagship route between Scotland's 2 largest cities when a perfect fit for that route is literally the class 380s the trains the 385s run along side on that route. as well as the class 379s they would be a perfect fit for that route
Never understood why compartments and the corridor was done away with, much warmer in winter and no one brushing past as they went to the buffet, the loo or allighting.
I agree, I much prefer them, but they raise a few problems with security and cleanliness, and are rather annoying for ticket inspectors - I can vouch for that! There definitely should have been a few retained per train on some longer distance routes though, as is the case in much of Europe.
Wish they Didn't get rid of class 365's
I think GWR’s 387s have quite some long distance potential, and had they had more units they could move some IETs off the Bristol Parkway/Cardiff route to lengthen the badly crowded 5-car services to the Cotswolds and sometimes Devon/Cornwall. Or if they actually electrified to Oxford the Oxford route could totally be 387, removing turbos from the Didcot shuttle.
i couldnt agree more, i live in Oxfordshire and use the shuttle all the time. It would be great
@The Rail Enthusiast 2021 I don’t think the hardness of seats are such a priority when so many 5 car IET trains are standing only… also IET seats aren’t that different
Since we had the 165 and 166 on Portsmouth to cardiff we lost the trolley service which we got on the 158s
I completely forgot about that? Was there definitely a trolley service pre 16X?
@@GWVillager yeah on 158s
ive only checked sunday 6th and 13th october (2024) but it seems like on sundays, emr connect doesnt exist much and some intercity services call at luton airport pkwy, approx every half hour but for some reason the gap between trains isnt the same each time
I'm from Canada, and the thought of accommodations in 2+3 seating on British rail network's tight narrow loading guage, as pretty cramped.
And that would be a correct thought as it is very cramped! As a result few trains are specified with 3+2 seating nowadays, people have both got larger and less tolerant to lack of space since both the Class 165/6s and 360s entered service.
@@GWVillager The 165's and 166's are a Network Southeast creation. The 450's, 458's, some Turbostars, some Electrocstars & 350's are all newer than the Netowkers and still have 2+3 seating.
From what I can tell, the 360 referb is still going ahead, so that’s nice - they’re just waiting for the 810s, as it appears they’re going to take design ques from it’s interior instead.
As for the 175 thing, Yeah, I could see that happening honestly, especially once TFW don’t need them.
The refurb has been scaled back to keeping the current seating arrangement and changing the seat covers…
@@1nbp That’s disappointing to hear.. those seats are atrocious.
@@kieranstravels I hate them so much hahaha, EMR is still committed to doing the whole refurb but once again the DfT isn’t providing the funds.
The Class 387s Are Not Fit For Purpose On Great Northern Service's The Class 365s 317s and 321s Were Alot Better And I Wish They Were Still With Us But Sadly They Aren't So We Can't Go Back To Them But If Govia Thameslink Railway Wanted a Newer Fleet For Great Northern Long Distance Services They Should Have Taken Either Class 377/5s Cascaded From Thameslink Or The Class 379s From Greater Anglia As Soon As They Became Available However The Class 377/5s Went To Southeastern Instead But They Still Have The Option To Take The Class 379s 👍
165s on the Chiltern Mainline, running Marylebone all the way to Birmingham in some cases, is a terrible allocation
The only problem with British railway's is the DfT, the young bloods who seem clueless there ,probably cycle to work and have no idea what travelling by train is.
I recently asked GWR if it was possible to use 175s on Portsmouth to cardiff services and they said no due to unreliability issues and the cost of training maintenance staff to maintain them.
Westbury's my local station, it's fun to see the class-166 on the siding on the connection to the readingTaunton line, waiting to go for a service to warminster or Swindon
i cant wait for the 360 refurb. i dont reslly plan to ride the 360s again as the first stop is luton airport pkwy, been there before, planning to go again (but on 222 and 80x) and its too exprnsive to go AGAIN
GWR also do the 165s on the Reading to Gatwick services which are around 2 hour a long along the Old North Downs line.
You're talking about the 360's interior being unsuitable but the journey time is around 1hr 30 min which is shorter than the journey from London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour which can be two hours plus and they use 450's which have a similar interior. Also the 165's and the 166's have the same Perkins engines that the Perkins engined 158's. The Perkins engine isn't that much louder than a Cummins engined 158. Besides, Wessex Trains had Perkins engined 158's on the Cardiff Central-Portsmouth Harbour service and I'm pretty sure GWR still has them
Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour is inappropriate for the 450s, yes, but at least the interior is refurbished, and they're not the exclusive traction. The thing with the 360s is that they replaced far more comfortable trains - they don't have to be as good as the 222s but something slightly better.
The noise has little to do with the engine, but rather the sound proofing - the 165/6s have 1/3 2/3 doors and noise thus travels much more noticeably into the cabin than on a 158.
Ok, the Class 360’s are less comfortable but at least you can get a seat on them. The number of times a Meridian would roll up to my station and were rammed with no possible seats even when you had made a reservation (reservations often didn’t show up on the seats). So, yes they are not as comfortable but less crowded.
That is true, they have really helped with capacity.
Tavelled on the Portsmouth to Cardiff route a couple of tines recently and both times it was with 158s, so there are some still there. Though I did see some 166s in the other direction which I agree are terrible for the route.
Are the 175s doing anything these days?
Amazingly, the problems I mentioned with GWR are actually being solved, though I have no idea if this video had anything to do with that (almost certainly not).
GWR started running more 158s on the Portsmouth to Cardiff service again last year, and most services are now in their hands. They have also started taking on off-lease Class 175s, but they will be used in the West Country, not on Pompey-Cardiff.
@@GWVillager impressive reach for a UA-cam video.
What are the 175s going to be used for then?
@@quintuscrinis According to Modern Railways, they will run the Okehampton and Barnstaple lines and some Cornish Mainline services.
@@GWVillager oh that'll be good to finally get rid of the castle sets. (Much as I love the 43s, it's odd to have them on such short carriages and only 1 part of the network.
or class 455s on waterloo to Windsor and Reading that's an over hour long journey without a toilet I am surprised you Didnt mention that
unrelated but after the 222s leave emr, they should go to tpe to replace the nova 3
Two + two seating on any mode of transport is the worst idea ever, from the psychological viewpoint !!
I think the 158s and 175s on Cardiff to Portsmouth is great but the only thing I see wrong is that they aren't coupling compatible unless they give 158s Shafenburgs
I doubt they'd interrun to be honest, perhaps the 175s could do Portsmouth to Cardiff and then the 158s do Westbury stoppers? It might be overcomplicated though, all 158s would do frankly.
That's true
I have learnt for this that the DfT are incompetent which I kind of already knew but damn. It’s as if they don’t want the railways to work.
GWR use the 165/166 on the reading to Redhill line, the line is not electrified from Wokingham to Aldershot south junction then from Salford junction to Redhill.
The 166's are no Longer running the North Downs Line.
other examples of shit allocations (but there is no alternatives really just the way it turnerd out)
450s to portsmouth, seats, no tables
class 700s just the fact they dont have tables and have very uncomfortable seats but run 110 mile routes
class 350s on euston to liverpool, its obvousily ment to be a cheaper service but 200 miles on that
class 377/1s and /4s with the horrific 3 +2 seatings in the 2nd and 3rd carriages of units and then that tiny little table which are on services that run on services which are up to 100 miles
Class 377/6s and /7s these trains have tables and a modern interior but they are used for some reason on the tatenham corner and caterham service, which is a very underused and not very busy line for a 10 car train, this service should be 8 car with 2 /1s or /4s and then the /6s and /7s should be strictly used on the metro services with those awful seats as the /1s and 4/s seats aren't bad.
Class 700s now going all the way to kings lynn, this is worse than the 387s arguably
class 720s going to south end on sea and the other further services these are over 75 minute train rides each yet have these class 720s which you can hardly walk down because the seats are so close together and there is no tables.
class 197s on the cardiff to chester and holyhead services, these are cross country train routes, over 150 miles these shouldnt be operated with a tiny dmus with no amenities
emrs, liverpool to norwich services, these need to be replaced
As a foreigner, I am very curious on how the Class 323 and Class 377/387 can have 3+2 cross seats at a 2.7 metres width? Isn't it crouded?
Yes! It's extremely cramped, but possible.
@@GWVillager Oh my goodness! I can imagine how hard guards manage to go through the whole EMUs to check the ticket
The Chiltern 165s were refurbished into the 2/2, very comfortable.
Then they got taken over by Arriva and aren't v reliable 😅
DO NOT REMOVE THE SPRINTERS LIKE COMON THEY ARE GOOD TRAINS FOR TRAINS TO OBAN SO GOOD YOU CAN DOUBLE IT AND ITS BASICLY A 4 CAR WITH THE GANGWAYS
The beef is with the concept of multiple units themselves. They’ve never been real trains. Only a loco and a rake of mk1’s is adequate. None of that horrible racket beneath you and rock hard seating.
I would replace the 360s with the younger withdrawn 379s on the London to Corby route and extended the route to Derby via Oakham.
Even the 395 units on HS1 have got that revolting 1/3 2/3 vestibule layout, let's have proper vestibules at the ends of the coach please.
Think I said in another of your vids, about Norwich, where a 'cross country' East Midlands Railway service to Liverpool will be an ageing 158 (the seats are nice), sat next to it will be a luxury 755 with 4 carriages, can run on diesel & overhead wires, which runs out to Yarmouth or Lowestoft etc 😄.
Think I also said somewhere about the Marches route. Why no local trains by WMR?
Don't get me started on Chiltern's class 165 on peak London to Stratford upon Avon services trust me it's dire
The Chiltern 165s are an oddity, there's not much need for them indeed.
@@GWVillagerThe Chiltern mainline desperately needs electrification and I think this was supposed to happen but with the theme of the video the DfT
@@GWVillagerwhat services does Chiltern operate the 165s on?
@@maimadha Mainly local services between London and High Wycombe, Aylesbury and the like, but occasionally they run fast services to Birmingham.
153's running cardiff to manchester is horrific
Midland mainline Class 158s between Peterborough and Norwich in the summer months are terrible unsuitable for the demand on that service like sardine cans
well
class 360s are getting refurbished with 2+2 throughout