What annoys me about these trains is that the passenger comfort is worse than the 50 year old HSTs they replaced. It's as if someone went for the cheapest option..... and then halved the budget. Terrible.
@@B-A-L ....Yep, exactly! We're the only country in the world who seem to think it's a good idea to have 'ironing board' seats for long distance train travel. Every other country invests in comfortable seats for long journeys, because they know this is what people need if they're on a train for longer than 45 minutes. Yet another thing to blame the Tories for. Hope they get destroyed at the General Election. They'll have had it coming. Idiots.
Should've jumped on the cross country train to Nottingham for a real horrible service. 3.5 hour journey with no power outlets, non-existent leg room, smallest tray table in existence, a toilet lock that makes you question the worthwhileness of going to the toilet and definitely not enough carriages to deal with the passenger volume at Birmingham!
@@lordtherapeutics That's probably the worst journey you can possibly take on UK train network - likelihood of cancellation incredibly high, have never taken the full length without a breakdown and never more than two carriages for an exceptionally busy service across the length of the journey
@lordtherapeutics I'm on that one about once a month. The return trip from Nottingham in the evening is unbearable at times. For some reason it goes down from 4 to 2 coaches at Nottingham so everyone is crammed in with the isle full of people standing. The experince is not helped by Nottingham Station being an absolute mess with frequent (sometimes multiple) platform changes at the last minute and the train normally being late.
Reduce fares for journeys down to split ticket prices where split tickets at certain stations they stop at in middle of journey make your journey cheaper than asking for an end to end ticket at the ticket office. It's shocking that it can be so much more expensive to get from A to B without splitting your ticket. Why a train fare should be a lot dearer travelling from one station to a destination than it from another station that's the station before only 3 minutes away. Can it be more expensive from stations one station closer to the destination? It's difficult to understand how and why so many of the fares are set the way they are. Peak time train journeys are an ancient thing that was outdated long ago. Why not have business class carriages to replace first class carriages as well. They can be the extra peak time business class carriages on routes where there is currently only Standard Class travel available, but fares a bit more expensive than standard class travel. Currently First class peak time journeys are charged at a ridiculous extortionate price. Maybe standard class train, tram, coach, ferry and hovercraft travel could offer fares at the same per mile rate, with integrated through tickets between all 5 modes of travel on offer as well. Plus bus options for normal bus journeys from/to all stations in the UK too.
@@dvidclapperton up in the north east there is a rail line that is having passenger services introduced or reintroduced (not sure which), and they have stated there will be integrated fares with the Tyne and Wear Metro for POP card users (its a contactless smartcard) I suppose its a step in the right direction (but anyone who doesn’t have a POP card is out of luck, as I believe paper tickets will still be separate, although paper ticket prices do seem to follow the “Zone” system that POP cards use)
@@dvidclapperton "Why not have business class carriages to replace first class carriages as well." What's the difference? "They can be the extra peak time business class carriages on routes where there is currently only Standard Class travel available" No there can't. Trains run in fixed formations and have done for decades. It's not economically viable to have trains or parts of trains that are only used for some of the day. "train, tram, coach, ferry and hovercraft travel" Er... _hovercraft_ ?!? The Hoverspeed service to France ended 20 years ago because the Channel Tunnel made it redundant. Is there anywhere in the world that hovercraft are used for public transport today?
@@pineappleroad "anyone who doesn’t have a POP card is out of luck" It's so annoying when transit companies require you to have a special card to use their services, instead of just using the contactless debit/credit cards that we've all had in our pockets for the last fifteen years. It's like that elderly aunt who always gives you gift vouchers for birthdays and Christmas, only in reverse.
Having had the misfortune to undertake a few long journeys on these trains in 2nd class, I can confirm they are indeed hideous things. The seats are diabolical, barely any more comfortable than the Thameslink ironing boards (which are short distance commuter trains) while the ride quality is rough and levels of wind noise high. All in all, it makes for a tiring journey. Having travelled on a Siemens made AVE high speed train in Spain and an Austrian Railjet (also made by Siemens) they're like night and day compared to these torture chambers. With UK ticket prices we should have rolling stock of at least equal quality to these countries.
@@henrybn14ar I agree, I quoted two other deficiencies in my comment above. Ride quality and wind noise. I can give you a fourth: they creak and rattle because they're flimsily built.
I recently went from London to Edinburgh on LNER on a new train. The seats were similar to these and were causing me discomfort within an hour. After nearly five hours on the train it was agonising. The trains they replaced had great seats. Travel 20 years ago was way more comfortable than now.
Had the in-laws over from Texas a couple of years ago and wanted to take them from E'boro to London by train (so they could see our green and pleasant land, and learn what a public transport system looks like 😀).... Had already heard bad things about the "Azuma" LNER seats, so decided I would splash out on 1st class. I gave a standard class seat a try during the journey and was absolutely dismayed that it passed the election process. Compared to a Mk4 or Mk3 coach, the downgrade in comfort is a complete disgrace!!! With six 1st class tickets to buy, I was bracing for a huge bill. But I was blessed that LNER were having a sale, so it didn't;t break the bank. But having tried the std class seat, I'd stump up for 1st class everytime now. At least until they retire / refit the Azuma stock.
The 800s have two problems. One is that they have replaced the class 253 HSTs, which have a better passenger ambience (and good seats) and the other is the seats. It seems that almost all new British rolling stock has uncomfortable seating. The cheap and cheerful approach may be acceptable for short distance commuting, but for longer journeys a degree of comfort is essential.
They really should have used the seating and interior ambience of the GWR HST sets for their IETs. Though that wouldn't fix the awful ride quality of the older IETs. At least until they're refurbed, supposedly the newer IETs used by Lumo, Avanti, Hull and TPE ride much better.
There were projects within the industry years ago to make the seats as small as possible to get more seats in. I thought at the time that they would probably be uncomfortable due to lack of padding. But I imagine that thinness was the brief, not comfort. Iirc it was about the time that disabled toilets were making an appearance, which takes a lot of seat space out of the equation
There was a time when 'intelligent commentators' bought into the BMW 'ultimate driving machine' nonsense and decided that very firm seating was good. Based on the message promulgated in 1920's & 30's Germany by a General Practitioner medic for zero padding and very upright seats as ideal for good posture and eliminating back pain. Although largely disproved by decades of work, including that conducted by the BR labs at Derby when developing seating for high speed trains in the 1960's, the powers that be would rather go with the German mythology than studious research from the British Rail days. Because everything German is better, it says so in the advertising.
The UK ordering the cheapest trains possible - and this is what you get! - rock hard 'ironing board' seats, carriages which are either too hot or too cold, dodgy WiFi, toilets (an option!), and yep, the rust. These trains won't be around in 30 years time, because they'll all have had serious rust issues. Be lucky if they last 15 years. Oh, and I forgot to mention that these long distance trains don't have a buffet car anymore. Don't you just love travelling long distance on UK trains?!! They really know how to look after passengers! lol
Hitachi trains in Japan, on the other hand, are very smooth and comfortable. I guess it just goes to show the extent of cost-cutting from UK train operators/ the UK government.
Terrible ride quality and an overall blandness - to think the Country which invented railways are now proud to assemble these non entities in kit form!
Yes, we make nothing here at all. None of the parts etc, no casting or our own steel. Its just other countries parts, banged together by minimum wage slaves in Hitachi factories etc....
@@Simon-xc5oy That's because of the global free market. Other countries can produce steel more cheaply than over here so that's what we use. Same with shipbuilding and most other heavy industries.
@@jc441-i3q I know. Trouble is the Chinese steel is crap. Its really pathetic. I have searched for tools for my car. Audi TT and it needs for example Torx screw bits. Got some of those...used them. Snapped rather than unbolt the bolt I was using them on. Got some more different ones...same thing...just fall apart. Spark plug remover...snapped..Oil filter wrench, snapped...all made in China with Chinese steel. My previous car a custom MX5 (had no original parts on it, all aftermarket) had a Super Dragger Stainless Steel exhaust, full system and manifold. Was on it when I bought the car...that stainless steel rusted at a joint and ....snapped! Had to take it to a specialist to get it welded. Proper quality stainless steel does not rust or mark. As its STAINLESS! And the welder said it was cheap Chinese stainless steel as that is all there is these days. Truly sad that we cant make things and compete anymore, due to the global markets as you say that is all true. We used to make our own steel and now in the future all these buildings etc will have issues due to the cheap Chinese rubbish they are made of. Cheap is not always better....
No he's an agent for Siemens, the company still going after using slave and forced labour during WW2, like many contemporary German Engineering firm. Convenient airbrushing. Companies like Siemens should pay reparations to Poland and occupied countries.
Those are literally S-Bahn seats (I'm actually not joking) on what's supposed to be equivalent to the ICE, while 1st class is basically a crappier version of ICE 2nd class (yes 2nd class) seats, all because the DfT insisted on being cheapskates for the initial batch that LNER and GWR have to put up with. Thankfully, later versions such as what Lumo have and what Avanti and EMR are getting have more acceptable seating, albeit still sub-standard compared the high-speed trains on the other side of the channel.
@@malcolmelias3496 if you mean the ICE 3neo which I have ridden from Frankfurt to Cologne, they're still miles better (in terms of both comfort and spacing) than what our Avanti trains have (both refurb and unrefurb), which are one of the better modern seats in the UK. British loading gauge is a b*%ch.
The worst thing about these seats is that as they wear out they reveal a metal bar across the base, which is as nice as it sounds. Nor is there space for a regular cafe bar onboard, though half of the first class is taken up by a kitchen that only gets used for 3 or so pullman services a day. Even Cardiff's new tram-trains will have a better version of this seat with more padding, which is actually quite nice since you're no longer sitting on solid metal. Its a shame overall as in first class and better specified units, they're a solid intercity train.
@@EE12CSVTapparently they're going to use the fridge to cool the free bottles of water given to passengers when the air conditioning doesn't work very well 😝
These trains were specified by the government. They went for maximum seating capacity, using the thinnest, cheapest Fisa seats. The comfort could be so much better if higher specification seats were fitted. The ride is a different matter. UK track and particularly the small loading gauge needs different suspension to typical continental trains. BR Research did a lot of work on this in the 1960s and 1970s. Those lessons have been ignored and standard continental type bogies and suspension used. The result is a rough ride at speed and structural problems with the suspension mountings. This is also an issue on the CAF trains.
Can you imagine these 800s lasting front-line service for forty years? Well, it's a tall order, but that's exactly what the BR 43/253 sets did and are sorely missed and not just by our backsides!
@@elfinthaw1315 In UK is only one HSR, from STP to Euro Tunnel. GWR is nowhere close to this. And on HST1 (this HSR has own name in UK) also Hitachi trains are in operation (for local services to Ashford, Rammsgate or Dover...)
We already have to avoid Cross Country trains since their introduction and now we get these which are unbearably uncomfortable once you hit 3 hours on those seats. Given the high ticket price I only take the SWR line between Devon and London these days and they’re very comfortable.
Mostly agree here. The IETs are woefully underequipped for the job they are meant to do - the GWR ones at least. I've commuted on them for college in the West Country for the last two years and used them on the long distance journeys. The seats are fine for 10 minute journeys, but I find them uncomfortable for the 3 hour journeys I undertake on them to London, heaven help people travelling to Penzance from London. I've regularly seen Bike spaces been completely used up and bikes spilling out into the vestibules. WiFi, albeit not great is a vast improvement over other GWR trains, I can at least load up an Internet tab, unless you happen to be in a tunnel. Toilets are adequate, thats it. They're often covered in graffiti, and the paint is peeling off which is never a good look, and if you look closely you will find a wonky panel in many coaches, even after about 7 YEARS in service. Compared with the HSTs, these are horrendous. First class is just a rip off imo.
You just have to apply the same suppression of nerves and emotion as network south west passengers standing for two hours out of Waterloo every day. Done both a lot and prefer sitting uncomfortably.
I've travelled on them several times, from the south-west to Reading or Paddington for London airports and agree with all said here - they are a big step backwards from the HSTs. Also, the space to store large suitcases is hopelessly inadequate, especially on journeys toward London at busy times.
I won't argue about the seats - but the complaint of the shakiness and stability is more down to the rails these trains run on rather than the trains themselves. Same for the wifi - all trains use the cellular network to provide Wifi coverage - the UK's 4G and 5G coverage outside urban centres has always been pretty shocking so its no surprise you had poor connectivity - it most likely was relying on a 2G signal
@@mrvwbug4423Yeah there's a presentation by some of the Avanti engineers somewhere on UA-cam that goes into this. They went into quite a bit of detail about the improvements made to the newer models, but the 807s will still keep the "lightweight" bogies found on the unpowered coaches in the centre of 9 car 80x. These give the worst ride quality and Hitachi said they wouldn't change for an order as small as Avanti's.
A very interesting video from the perspective of a Scandinavian visitor. I would certainly agree with many of your comments other than the location of Cardiff in Japan (there is not one there- I've looked!), but I would suspect that might have occurred with auto-correction of text, so I will forgive that. These trains are one of the consequences of the privatisation of British Rail, where control was removed from an organisation that knew how to run a railway. They were specified by the Government's Department for Transport, who have determined that passenger comfort is unimportant if they can pack in more seats. Hitachi are a good manufacturer, but they can only provide what the incompetent customer specifies. It seems that the toilet wash basins are frequently faulty in Britain- Due to simple equipment like taps (faucets) being replaced by high-tech sensors at greater cost. I remember when everything used to work and seats were comfortable. Rail fares in Britain are extortionate, but again, this is due to the Government, whose dogmatic policies have wrecked the finances of most British industries.
High tech sensors are there to protect passengers from infection. As an aside, the UK is now the fourth largest exporting country in the world, so the finances don't seem to be quite so bad as you may think.
@@glynnwright1699 The most effective form of infection control is handwashing (especially after use of the toilet). If the water is not available due to sensor failure, as is now very common on trains, then the spread of infection is greatly increased.
It was Sir John Major, not Margaret Thatcher, I think she thought it was a privatisation too far. The government could have argued for BR to be exempt from EU Directive 91/440 in 1991due to it's efficiency. But they couldn't wait to break BR up so we lost a lot of our expertise and continue to waste money into share holders pockets while Government subsidy is far higher than in BR days. To add insult to injury it's virtually impossible to reverse the damage although gradual nationalisation as franchises end is a start i guess. P.S. I don't like the new name 'Great British Railways' either, too nationalistic, we're not great any more and the trains aren't British any more, sad to say .
Agree about the seats, I travelled gwr Paddington - Reading return recently, last time was in a 2018 HST intercity 125, the HST was a proper intercity train with decent seats and nice interior, the class 800 is a very different experience, a tired interior, but they run fast so that 23 minute route is over quickly, wouldn’t want to stay sitting much longer.
Is it sad if I say that I thought they weren’t bad trains purely on the basis that it could have been a lot worse? It’s electric, available seating screens, and fast. Most British people would have thought it was Christmas to have a *half good* train!
They're being ordered like crazy before the step free regulations hit. That train was chosen despite operators knowing they absolutely do not conform to incoming wheelchair regs, and that literally means no step and a 1m50 turning round at every doorway.
@@jabberwockytdi8901 GWR knew the trains wouldn't meet the new standards and rushed the order through. Thus allowing every other operator to order the same type. They'll probably be around for about 10-15yrs more before having to be replaced.
Agree 100% First trip on these 4 years ago wasn't good. Hard uncomfortable seats. Door that refused to open. Recent trip W Cornwall to London..nothing changed except rough riding seems worse. Toilets cramped and acessible toilets few and far between which because of medical needs made things difficult. Another aspect apart from trolly which come along goodness knows when there is no catering on trains. Disgraceful for near 5 hour service. If train runs with 2 units (no connection between them) there is only 1 trolly between them so pot luck on whether it turns up. Seems backward step having to take your own packed lunch or evening meal with you. One of the delights of rail travel in trains even in BR days was that nearly all longer distance trains had a buffet or even restaurant car...and had nice comfortable seats. The inter city 125s were smooth riding. These 800s although having some technical improvements are from a passenger point of view a very backward step. Their rough riding is not much better than trains I have ridden on in Myanmar!
@@robindtgriffiths6487 the 125s had met the end of their extendable life, they couldn't be adapted for the new regs either. So buy the cheapest - off shelf - design possible, yet strangely having less wheelchair access due to a higher step. On the continent it's even worse with everything frantically going double decker. There's literally nowhere for wheelchair users to go once inside it's steps up or down. It's not just wheelchairs, could be elderly or anyone mobility impaired
@@Yandex-y1p Interestingly there are still a few ex 143's converted to 4 coach Castle class units that run mainly between Exeter Plymouth and Penzance. Real delight to ride on one if they turn up. The 158's also used mainly for all station Plymouth to Penzance services are also much nicer in both ride and seats.
The track is in a really poor condition. There is a plan to electrify between Patchway and Exeter St Davids. The class 802s have reached 148mph in service.
I don't see why on the London Paddington services, they can't operate at 140 . They need to be refurbished with better seats. I don't see why when they electrified to South Wales, they had the 91s and Mk4 sets off LNER-mire comfortable in my opinion and can operate at the same speed
@@Thechoppersofcardiff There is a few reasons why there is no 140mph, firstly you require in cab signalling above 125mph in passenger service, secondly the AT300s have not got the in cab signalling of ETCS which is installed on the GWML in a overlay mode for Heathrow Express to replace ATP as the 387s don't have ATP but have ETCS, thirdly after the TPE 148mph incident the AT300s have been fitted with a speed limiter. There is a few reasons as to why the Class 91 Electra's + Mk4 sets where not used by GWR, firstly the 91s were life expired because they only had a design life of 30 years, secondly a lot of the 91s were only withdrawn in 2020 and GWR had replaced all of its High Speed fleet by August 2019. Thirdly GWR had limited resources to get new stock and if they had got the Mk4s it would have been to replace the Castles instead. If GWR would have got them to replace the AT300 in the cracking issues in May 2021, they would have required a lengthy training programme which would have taken over a yeah and at the driver training was banned for safety grounds. It is true the mk4s are more comfy this because they were designed to ride like a HST 125 but at 140mph instead. The seats will be replaced we they come up for overhauls. The seats on the AT300s currently were the ones the DfT specked in the IPE tender which would have gone to bombardier if it wasn't modified.
The water was working, it’s just ridiculously difficult to activate the sensor which is somewhere up in the left corner and much further back than you would think.
Well said and it needs an overseas visitor to add to add to the complaints about these dreadful attempts at trains. But if you think these 802’s are awful next time you come to the UK go for a long ride on the all second class 803’s and book seat C94 if it still exists.Haven’t got a clue how they can even charge for that seat. Railways in the UK are like all utilities, Cash Cows for foreign owners.
Thanks for your video - as a resident of Exeter, I use these trains a lot and I think the seating is probably the worst I have experienced on any train in Europe. If I recall correctly, the original IET spec had some of the cheapest seats, ones that are designed for metro services which have gone into these GWR IETs. But as you point out, journeys on this route can be 4-5+ hours. When you look at other modern European services, the intercity offering is always much more comfortable and designed for long journeys, with this sort of seating reserved for regional or even local/metro services. I hope that their midlife upgrade means a change to the seating.
I've only travelled in these in first class on LNER. The old 225 seats were far more comfortable but these are fine. The big issue is the LED lights inside are so stupidly bright and in a bright white colour. If you get an evening training from Kings Cross, its like being on the sun inside. The old trains had far softer lighting which meant you could still see perfectly fine but also rest if you needed to, these feel like being in a shitty office.
Agreed. It was the very first thing I noticed when I travelled on the new LNER Azuma. The old stock they replaced were far superior in every department.
I happened to be on an Avanti pendolino the other day (22-year old trains), and I used the same app to test the noise levels when cruising at 120mph+ … results: pendolino coasting 67dB (a bit quieter than an HST); pendolino under power 71dB, … and the figure for a GWR IET last week? 79dB / 81dB. Far far noisier than either the 22-year-old west coast 125mph stock, and far far noisier than the almost-50-year-old HSTs. And that's before we get to the ride quality, ambience (lighting … e.g. no reading lights!), and indeed the seats. Ho hum. Pendolino noticeably nicer in all those aspects … and they tilt. The IETs do have some advantages (better acceleration, more legroom and luggage space, bigger windows) but those are more than outweighed for me by the disadvantages. And yes, they can run on diesel, which is pragmatic, but itself an indictment of the failure to electrify most of the lines they run on in a timely manner.
Don't forget the most important metric: reliability. Class 800/801/802 are in a different league for technical reliability compared to HST or 390. RDG data online tells the story.
At least Greater Anglia have got the Stadler FLIRT Class 745 and Class 755 that were built and manufactured in Switzerland. And the seats on the Class 745 and Class 755 are very comfortable.
As a regular user of the Norwich to London service I can attest to these trains being extremely good. Tbf to Greater Anglia their services have massively improved in the last few years. They used to always be in the news for absolutely crap services
@@Bungle2010 well, not a worn out tired and dilapidated HS125, no. I'd agree. But swap the motive power for a decent electric unit and a MK3 or MK4 set of a well maintained, refurbished 'as-new' set, absolutely. When in good condition they are more spacious, quiet, comfortable, with excellent ride quality. I was lucky enough to get a ride in the newly refurbished original M3 set that is doing the tour of preserved lines. In an as-new state like those they absolutely knock all the spots off these modern sets.
I've heard it said that a country's railway offering can reflect the nation as a whole. It this case, it seems true; cheap, tacky, uncomfortable and stupidly expensive.
It annoys me that this train was really bad. I’m a Hitachi fan myself and I love their Japanese products like the Sotetsu 20000 and also the E5, E6 and E7 Shinkansens. They’re very reliable and amazing trains in Japan and surely they also have similar great trains overseas. Even the 395 is a great train. I wonder if it is because the train is made in the UK or Italy but well, I can’t judge can I? All I can say is that I hope they improve their quality in the future hopefully.
It's a shame the quality of these 800 class trains is so poor, as they look really good in my opinion, beautiful streamlined shape! I read somewhere that Hitachi never intended this class of train to be used as a long distance ICE, but as a short suburban journey train!!
Sadly a correct report, as I found out myself from Exeter to Bristol (I can still feel the pain of that iron bar that you feel on a worn seat). Luckily, pax like me who live between Honiton and Yeovil can choose to travel via Salisbury to Bristol which is a bit slower but the trains are more comfortable and as frequent plus your ticket is valid via either way,.
Worst train seats ever. Excruciatingly uncomfortable, way too firm, too little padding, and even though they aren’t that old the padding is already deteriorating, you can feel the frame of the seat through the padding on many of them. Awful, and to think how comfortable the old Class 43s were.
Apparently the switch from comfortable seats to uncomfortable seats is due to fire safety standards that were introduced, the old comfortable seats were quite flammable. I guess it is taking a while for train fitting companies to come up with non-flammable comfortable replacements (or the uncomfortable ones are just cheaper 🤷🏻♂️)
Dutch guy in the UK here. The seats are by far the worst aspect on UK trains, at least compared to Dutch ones. They are very tall, blocking your view, kind of creating cubicles of isolation. And they are very thin, sacrificing comfort.
Yes, I went an old Intercity train on Chiltern recently, and people were commenting how spacious it seems - better window design possibly, but mainly shorter seats, which give the impression of much more space.
Just spent a week in Holland and the trains are very good and smooth riding, with very reasonable fares - went from Ede to Schiphol airport for about £16!
Class 43 HST is comfier and fastest diesel in the world. If it was up to me I’d send all the 800’s back and bring all HST’s out of storage and refit them with Paxman Valenta engines like the old days. Screaming and smoking out of the stations a real spectacle. Best trains in the world a symbol of everything right with British engineering.
@@richardlionheart3965 no Rich I’m not saying that, although I can see why my comment might be interpreted that way. No Model T Fords, I beg you! That being said, a lot of mechanics say the last sweet spot for most cars is 2012 (older for the higher tech cars). “Proper” Volvos that do moon mileages ended with the V70, and BMW and Mercedes became used car timebombs in many models after 2003 due to the over use of plastic parts under the engine. Take the MK3 Focus. I’ve got a 1.6 4 cylinder Duratec with Variable Cam Timing, a tried and trusted engine that’s evolved from the Zetec in the 90’s that replaced the CVH..actually very simple and reliable engines if oil changes were done VERY frequently but they were noisy, harsh and not particularly economical on fuel. The twin cam 16 valve Zetec was a decent replacement for the CVH. Progress. I managed an average 28mpg in a 1.8 Zetec 1995 engine for round town driving and some longer journeys. In the Duratec I’m averaging 43mpg. Progress again. What has replaced my Duratec? A 1 litre 3 cylinder EcoBoost with turbo to achieve the same power and in some cases better acceleration. I smelt a rat and when looking for another car a few years ago wouldn’t even look at a Focus with that 1.0 engine. Pushing a lot of power with turbocharging through such a tiny engine means driving it to within an inch of its life. It’s all coming to light now. Wet timing and oil belts that start to disintegrate from being in oil and those bits of belt clog up oil feeds starving parts of oil, plus the scored channels on the cylinder head to allow cooling resulting in cylinder head walls so thin coolant leaks into the cylinders. So many destroyed engines. Not progress what were Ford playing at? Most cars though 2012 onwards are using too much plastic and adding technology we don’t want or need, making them expensive nightmares. Elon Musk is a bright guy but you’d find it hard to believe with those rubbish Tesla cars. A central screen display so the driver instead of glancing down at his dash to check speed, revs etc has to look to the centre of the dash taking his attention off the road? Crazy. My point to all this car talk applies to trains. I don’t want stream engines they were woefully inefficient. But the HST? Its age is deceiving. It was years ahead of any other train when it came out (XPT more technical marvel but was too soon for its time until Europe perfected the tilt) and received a number of major upgrades over the years, including the new engines which were mostly the German 16 cylinder MTU 4000 R41’s or Paxman VP185’s. Both brilliant engines that were running just fine and didn’t need replacing for new trains. In fact it was only a few years ago one of the major operators of the HST fleet had all their MTU engines overhauled. I know I says in my comment I’d put all the old engines in but that is me dreaming of their glory days and screaming. Although too quiet for my tastes I accept the only reason we kept HST’s in mainline service was because of the upgrade to those MTU engines. They are brilliant and met all Euro compliance for emissions, no smoke visible, just a heat haze from the exhaust due to the high tech diesel particulate filter systems. The VP’s were an older design but delivered all the power with 4 less cylinders, you’d get a few puffs of diesel clag when leaving the station but these were also fairly smokeless compared to the original engines. The carriages had massive overhauls to make them suitable for today’s laws on safety and disability (slam doors were replaced, new toilets for disabled people). The pee and poop was admittedly dumped straight onto the track (stopped the problem of smell though!) but this could have been upgraded. A long post yes but my point being: the HST had many changes to ensure reliability and passenger comfort for 21st century standards. These Hitachi trains don’t feel like progress when comfort levels are inferior to the HST. Just like the Voyager trains, noise and vibration from underfloor engines, HST’s again superior despite being the older trains. If it ain’t broke. Yes one day the HST’s would have needed to be replaced but we had many more years of service and that time could have been spent finding a really good proper replacement.
I had to stand up on one of these on a busy service the other day. Trying to stay stable with all the shaking and swaying was very difficult and uncomfortable, I kept getting scared I was going to spill hot coffee on myself or others.
Well, I thought this was going to be just another one of those 80x haters bemoaning the loss of our BR-era classic stock and slagging off the new trains needlessly. But all in all, that was pretty fair. Note the irony of being whisked passed a siding full of ex-LNER Mark IV trailers with their plush, comfy padded seats that I, personally, have seen many a man woman and child drooling in slumber in.
Since the end of the end of the 80s when we started having trains that were little more than flimsy coaches, train travel has been awful in the UK. I remember in the 60s/70s/ 80s when we had the big diesel trains, class 37 with the old 'heavy' type of BR carriages, maybe not the cleanest, but those seats were comfortable and the train wasn't noisy and didn't vibrate. No matter what they'll have you believe, BR was pretty good until the arrival of these cheap and light foreign made trains.
Mk3 coaches built in the late 70s/early 80s for InterCity HST/Loco Hauled services was the high point in carriage design on Britain's railways...its been going downhill ever since sadly☹
First class in these is actually pretty comfortable, I did Cardiff to Penzance and back - my ticket actually being cheaper than a regular ticket weirdly, or I'd have just gone regular class. Even managed to sleep fairly soundly. I had no idea how bad standard class was and now I see it, it looks very uncomfortable and cheap. Disappointing to see that they cut costs on standard class so badly as that is how the majority of people - including myself - usually travel by when going anywhere by train just because of how expensive trains are to travel by.
The IET is a pretty good train platform, only the introductory TOCs had absolutely shite seat selection forced on them by the Treasury. The 803, 805, 807, and 810 (EMR even let passenger test them in certain stations while in development) all have better seats. Pretty sure when the 800s, 801s, and 802s are due for a refurb they'll be pretty great.
@@henrybn14ar Yeah, and those wheel issues cause massive derailments in low-speed collisions, which Hitachi failed at modeling (or covered up, it's likely with the Japanese) and was only revealed after one got hit.
We were riding around in smoother, quieter and more comfortable trains back in the 1970s built by BR. This is purely about cost; Exeter to Penzance is a lovely journey, even in this rolling stock, which has the benefit that it provides free passage for our dog. He roams the carriage under the seats saying hello to all the passengers. And, before some jobsworth reprimands me, everyone was keen to greet him and it made their journey on those uncomfortable seats a bit more enjoyable.
9:05 "Thanks to the U.K.'s needlessly complex ticketing system" That's putting it mildly! I can go from Sydney to Newcastle (New South Wales) in a bit more than that time covering 165km, paying $A10.33 or $A7.32 off-peak and half that if you are a student (divide roughly in half to get GBP). And no such thing as advance booking; you can simply show up 5 minutes before departure and get on (although might not get a window seat if you board that close to departure time). Unfortunately Transport4NSW will soon introduce "new" trains on that run which have seats suspiciously like those on your train. And non-reversible too, which has generated a lot of criticism from locals who have had reversible seats on our trains since 1878 and are well liked.
I’ve been on the Azuma lner train and in my opinion it was pretty ok. Though that’s maybe because lner is a pretty good government owned railway company.
Are these the same ones used on the east coast mainline from London to Edinburgh? If so they're the worst for passenger comfort. The seats are too upright so you cant fall asleep as you constantly rock forwards, the seats aren't winged, the train rocks and shakes like crazy, it doesn't seem to tilt around highspeed corners so your table items are thrown out to the side. Constant delays. Im sure some of that is down to track, and internal passenger configuration but when taking the west coast mainline to glasgow i thought things were much smoother, more comfortable, better seats. That said i think the Lumo service on the east coast mainline at least has better seating configs, with seats having wings like airplanes do and a steeper recline so you can sleep on a long trip. Still, utterly embarrassing compared with our neighbours in France.
They don't have the best ride quality when paired with some crap line quality... However, the main issue is the seat type they were forced to use by the DFT and thus poor comfort. The newer units with Avanti and those in use by Lumo with a different seat manufacturer instantly have a much better overall experience. Other than that, they're pretty decent and have great acceleration, which helps cut journey times or rid delays when there has been a hold up.
Thank you for your very honest account. Having used the service recently from Birmingham to Stoke on Trent, and back, travelling in the rush hour,., I agree with everything you have said.
Du skal regne med at GWR var de første som fik disse 800 sæt og den engelske regiring og GWR havde besluttet at de sæder i standard klassen skulle være strygebræt sæder. De nye sæt 805 som Avanti west coast har modtaget har bedre sæder i standard klassen og ser helt andetleds ud. Jeg er fan af disse togsæt på el kan du komme imellem de store byer på ca 2 timer med 200 km/t
I remember travelling on one of the old 1970s UK high speed trains in about 2016 (when they were still in service) at dusk, and recall the ride being surprisingly smooth - it reminded me a lot of a calm ferry crossing. I haven't found the new generation trains to be as smooth as what it was, though they are more environmentally friendly. There seems to be a stretch just west of Chippenham station where the westbound Great Western Railway track tilts noticeably to the left (and a bit shortly after where it tilts noticeably to the right). Given that it is also on a tall embankment, I've been a little nervous everytime I've been on that bit of railway. My memory of the journey I took in 2016 was that the 1970s high speed trains handled it better than the current late 2010s trains.
Your comments about these trains are spot on. I've used them only when on holiday in the south west and they are fine for journeys of one hour or less but for anything else they are terrible. My criticisms are the poor ride quality particularly over poor trackwork, the ironing board seats, the harsh overhead lighting and the green interior colour scheme is not really to my taste. There is just no comparison with the old HST trains which have served the railways well for the past 40 odd years and which were a darned sight more comfortable. I know the train operating companies are largely constrained by government finance and health and safety regulations but I think they could do a lot better. Does anyone in GWR management listen to customer feedback at all ?
I travelled on one of these, Newport to Paddington and return. I'd have been more comfortable standing! By the time I was home again, my back was in absolute agony. The valleys service from Newport up to Ebbw Vale had infinitely more comfortable seating.
That Cardiff, Japan tho makes me wonder the IET was caused that 😂😂😂😂😂😂 The reason of those horrible seats, is the DfT lol, cost cutting moments... although you can try the Lumo's class 803 and Avanti's Class 805
Having been on all 3 of GWR's IET Types all on the same service what is the 20:03 From London Paddington to Plymouth as far as Taunton as I get the 20:03 almost atleast once per month and my main problem with them is what you get a 5 car Class 800 on this service as its a stupidly busy service the fav one is the 9 car Class 802 type as its all one until and not 2 put together meaning you can walk stright through
Oh yes, I travel on these trains every day unfortunately and I can confirmed their seats are the most uncomfortable of all trains! Some of the GWR staff are really rude as well. GWR doesn’t know how to train their staff in customer service.
0:25 cardiff, japan....at first i thought...is it cardiff TO japan..but that's not possible by train...? and then i wondered is this a theme amusement park in japan designed to look like a uk town?
In regards to why we keep ordering them the answer is there’s nothing else. With the exception of the CAF Civity there’s no other intercity train that can be bought of the shelf here in the UK at the moment. If we wanted to order intercity trains from a different company i.e Alstom or Siemens it would have to be completely re designed to fit our loading gauge. That intern puts up the cost, costs that most company’s and the DFT aren’t prepared to invest. But then again perhaps we should be grateful that CRRC hasn’t yet entered the UK. Given there performance with MBTA and SEPTA things could be a lot worse.
Am I right, that GWR were wanting the Class 365s at one time, and were told by the DfT that they were to have to 387s, as they were added on the back of an order from another toc?
The UK loading gauge is not a big issue. There a many narrow gauge railways with similar loading gauges. The IEP bodyshell is a standard Japanese design. The main reason for the high cost of new trains is that they are grotesquely over engineered.
@@johnUB4478 To be fair the Electrostars are one of the better trains operating in the UK, at least for commuter services, though with the right seating I think a 387 could handle some inter-city runs much like the Class 350s operated by LNWR.
The IET is ironically still probably better than the Civity. My first hand experience on a Civity was pretty bad, one of the dreaded TfW class 197s, that TfW considers inter-city trains. I've heard the class 397s used by TPE might be slightly less bad than the GWR and LNER IETs. The 197 is literally worse than a 30+ year old class 158.
It is a fast train. Not high speed Technically high speed should travel over 200km/hour and should have dedicated high speed track. Most international HSR in Japan, South Korea or Taiwan travels over 300km/hour
The problem is the Hitachi trains in Japan are great, but the U.K. rail companies seem to push for the cheapest component and seating. Exactly same train stock, completely different mentality towards providing quality rail services
If the train is full, sit on the floor or the luggage rack, covid ventilation guarantee infections, but it is better than bus travel as they don't operate past 8am, get used to it everything in the UK is substandard as a friend used to say "play it by ear" .
These trains are great imo, its just become fashionable to hate them among (other) train enthusiasts over love to their predecessors. Especially with the seats on newer trains, looks good and great acceleration, glad to see them around! 👏
The IET family of train’ quality is very different depending on each operator… The GWR ones are the worst LNER ones are mediocre (and Hull) TP IETs are decent. And the Lumo and AWC ones are actually pretty good The EMR ones are *probably* going to be good but it remains to be seen. It still is weird that there are so many variations if what is basically a family of trains. Even weirder is that AWC is GWR are basically operated by the same company (Although AWC is 30% Trenitalia and 70% First)
As a local of GWR and their IETs, I don't understand the hate. I find them well sized, fast, comfortable and smooth enough. The only issue is the reliability; namely the cracks found which took them fully out of service for a few weeks.
I think the problem is as a new fleet they dont meet some fairly basic modern standards. If we'd looked at these 10 years ago you'd think they were great. In 2024 however they're "ok". The seats are inexcusible and clearly were a budget constraint. The ride being poor, the overall "cheap" feel and very basic amenities, combined with the poor seats is what makes them only "ok". When you compare it to modern fleets in other countries they are laughably basic.They'd be fine on a local route but for long distance they're just all around a poor train when compared to other modern fleets. It does feel a little like some are excusing it because of how awful our rail fleet has been for years so in comparison these can seem fantastic.
In a few days time I will be travelling to Devon in one of these. I'm not looking forward to it but the prospect of driving there in summer is even worse. If the powers that be really want us out of our cars and into public transport they will need to do better than this. I used to travel by train a lot many years ago (Steam Days!) and remember seats that actually had decent cushioning, even if there was a layer of dirt over most things. I'd rather have a 3 hour journey in comfort than a 2 hour one on cheap "upholstery".
The longest train trip I used to take over 48 months exactly was the 100 km WR: between Wellington (NZ) and Masterton,,using refurbished Mk 2 ex BR carriages dating from around 1972. Comfortable and relaxing, well upholstered , power points for every passenger, but no wi-fi ( life goes on). Cost.. for 90 mins averaging 62 km/hr about 11£
@@Simon-Andersen dude you should try making this a recurring gag in your videos 😂 “Today I am at Amsterdam Centraal Station” *shows the logo for Amtrak in the corner* Anyways keep up the good work 😁
This video follows an aviation vid all about North Korea and dare I say it, the North Korean aircraft, mainly vintage soviet designs going back 50+ years, were better kept than any of our trains. The UK is fast becoming the first post first world country.
I would not touch any seat bottom on any train in the UK. These train are not only horrible, they are also usually badly cleaned, hence the brown stains when you showed footage of the power sockets under the seats, and if you are near a toilet then the smell can also be overwhelming. Add to this the reliability of arriving at your destination on a parr with a hot air balloon then you see why all the roads in the UK are chock-a-block. ...and also being a complete ripoff.
The whole concept is flawed: carriages too long, wheelbase too short, wheels too small, window bay spacing is wrong dual mode is wasteful and inefficient. It's asking for trouble.
The wheelbase is 100mm longer than an N700 Shinkansen with the same size wheels. Have you ridden on one of those to experience the ride quality? What aspect of the bi-mode design is wasteful and inefficient?
Just as other people have pointed out; the HST trains, albeit old were a darn sight more comfortable and had similar amenities in terms of size and seat reservation systems. In Scotland, we've kept them and run them as smaller intercity 6 car jobs that have been refurbished. Even the Class 365 we use are better. It's all well and good being fast, but I want to get there in comfort and the ability to stand again.
We use to be a world leader in trains but my God have we fallen well behind the rest of the world, I would safely say we have the worst rail infrastructure of any developed country. These shite Hitachi trains we have now are just embarrassing they are terrible.
Too many parasites are leaching too much money out of the Railway at every point in the system. The IET is reflective of this in as much as there was barely enough left in the coffers after all the above had taken their cuts and commissions.
I travelled from Paddington to Penzance during the first year these trains came into service. It was the height of summer and the air conditioning broke. Because the windows don't open, we were diverted to Taunton, where an engineer was picked up and we had a twenty minute break for fresh air. Took me right back to the early days of steam travel, except only the inconvenience and none of the romanticism.
I travel on these trains every day on the way to/from work, which is only a 20 minute journey, but I’ve also travelled on them extensively long-distance. Honestly, I don’t think they’re that bad. The seats can be hit-or-miss depending on how worn out they are, but certainly after 4 hours or so it definitely starts to become uncomfortable. They obviously don’t compare to other electric units like the 390s or older Mk3/4 sets, but I’d say there are no long-distance DMUs in the UK better than the IETs. I’d certainly rather an IET over the likes of a Voyager or an Adelante without hesitation.
Of what I've personally ridden in the UK, for me the best trains are basically a 2 way tie between the 390s and the MK4s. I've ridden the TfW mark 4s that are hauled by class 67s and they were very quiet and comfortable, I've heard the IC225 MK4s that still operate with LNER might be even better. The 390s are also quiet and comfortable, except for tunnel blast if the door seals are getting dodgy.
I remember just a few years ago travelling from Reading to Penzance on one of the remaining British Rail HST's that GWR were still (just) using. As the HST pulled away from a standstill I swear it seemed as though it was the platform itself that was moving (backwards, of course!). That was common with HST's - they all pulled away imperceptibly like that and I always enjoyed that 'moment' whenever I travelled on one. Leaving Reading, this HST accelerated to around 45-50 MPH (imposed speed limit) and, as the scenery just west of Reading isn't particularly arresting to look at, I buried my nose in the novel I'd brought along for the journey. Around twenty minutes later I looked up from my book and, looking through the passenger window, I could see the scenery was by now simply flying past - and I HADN'T NOTICED THE STEP-UP IN SPEED! That's how good the HST was. Recently, I did this very same journey on one of these Hitachi trains and I have to say I was disappointed at the comparative lack of refinement AT ANY SPEED of the new train. As mentioned, the seats are very firm with precious little 'give' in the cushioning, but what I thought was MOST TELLING OF ALL was that on every left-hand bend in the track (all the way down to Penzance, by the way) my carriage would creak noticeably in its structure under the load (g-force) of negotiating a bend. This seemed to point to a fundamental lack of torsional rigidity/stiffness in its basic construction. Now maybe that was peculiar to the particular carriage in which I was travelling - I don't know - but it wasn't reassuring, I have to say. Going from an HST to a Hitachi was like stepping out of a ruggedly-built pre-2000's Mercedes-Benz into a 1970's Ford Cortina! And if you like 'car analogies' (!) I would absolutely consider the HST to be the Rolls-Royce of passenger trains.
I'll never understand why folks from other countries feel the need to lie about the British weather. London not even in the top 30 rainiest cities in Europe, but you crack on with the stereotypes my man.
First of all, London is not the rainiest location in the UK, and he was talking about the UK in general which is one of the rainiest countries in Europe. He did not mention London as he wasn't there and it's not the rainiest place in the UK. As for the notions, it's not just about the amount of rain but the number of days it does rain and even London gets a lot of them, just not pouring rain but constant light annoying rain. Apart from that even when it does not rain it's a lot of time gloomy and cloudy and is one of the cities with the least duration of sunshine in Europe among the bigger cities. And apart from all that, this notion comes from you. People in the UK say that that's the way it is, your TV programs present the situation that way so even if it was not true you're the ones that say it's like that.
@@AL5520 Seems I've touched a nerve. Of course London isn't the rainiest place in the UK. But if you're trying to measure fairly, rather than make a point you've preconceived in your head, you obviously need to choose a specific - but atypical - place due to the wildly varying climates experienced across individual countries - would you call Spain cold just because you can go skiing in the mountains? But I'll play your game for a second; take Londonderry in Northern Ireland, the ACTUAL wettest place in the UK, and it still doesn't even come in the top 10. And please don't tell me I need to point out that cloud (which I completely agree the UK does experience a lot of) isn't the same thing as rain. And to your last point, I will concede some people do like to joke about the weather, but some also like to joke about how we're going to win every football tournament we enter - but I bet you don't think we're amazing at football...
@@AM-sc1oz The one that complained is you so you are that one that someone touched his nerve (Simon and now me). When Simon talked about the UK in general you've opted to talk about London, even though he wasn't in London. As facts show London is not the rainiest place in the UK but it is cloudy and gloomy more the the vast majority of big cities in Europe. As for your point on Spain, it's sound like a climate denier that mentions a specific place and point in time while the data is an average. The facts are that, as i said in my reply, the AVERAGE rain fall in the UK is one of the highest in Europe. This means that there are places with and duration that it might be higher of lower but the general amount over the year of the UK is high. It's also a fact that most of the people in the UK think that, say that, complain about that and use every opportunity to go for a sunny break in a place with less rain and gloom. That said, the UK, is still a great and beautiful place, despite (and probably also due to) it's weather.
I think it's a different supplier but it's agree upon around the ordering of the train so changes can be made to accommodate the seats chosen if needed
Well, about the wifi speed mentioned at 5:28 Please note going anywhere west of Reading the mobile data speeds are generally just terible, so you can't expect to get any good wifi on these trains. The United Kingdom is basically a third world nation except for London. 😄
its a close call between these and the voyagers for worst train, voyagers are very noisy in operation but i think the seats are worse in the IET's and i hope no one has to be on one of them when a door seal is faulty because everytime the doors close at a station everyones ears get that horrible pressure build up (happened to me on the first one i rode at plymouth) the best ride comfort has to be the 125's closely followed by the 225's
GWR are the worst . And in the UK they have some serious competition as there are many terrible train operators in the UK. £13 Billion subsidy a year and the most expensive train fares in the developed world.
What annoys me about these trains is that the passenger comfort is worse than the 50 year old HSTs they replaced. It's as if someone went for the cheapest option..... and then halved the budget. Terrible.
And the Intercity 225s...they are so comfortable
Yea, this decision would have been made by another bloody Tory idiot who never travels by train.
323s any day. I know they're not meant for long distance
They spent all the money on high quality Japanese engineering and poor quality British interiors.
@@B-A-L ....Yep, exactly! We're the only country in the world who seem to think it's a good idea to have 'ironing board' seats for long distance train travel. Every other country invests in comfortable seats for long journeys, because they know this is what people need if they're on a train for longer than 45 minutes.
Yet another thing to blame the Tories for. Hope they get destroyed at the General Election. They'll have had it coming. Idiots.
Cardiff, Japan 😂
I was like o.O for a sec too
I was like "ah, so this is a parody video then?"
Lmao 😃
Also 'Bridgwater' only has 1 'e' in it, but whatevs, Simon San 🙂
No wonder I can't understand a word anyone says there!!
Should've jumped on the cross country train to Nottingham for a real horrible service. 3.5 hour journey with no power outlets, non-existent leg room, smallest tray table in existence, a toilet lock that makes you question the worthwhileness of going to the toilet and definitely not enough carriages to deal with the passenger volume at Birmingham!
Nottingham XC service to Cardiff?
2 or 3 cars class 170 - i guess ;)
Terrible and expensive.
The Liverpool - Norwich via Nottingham is equally dreadful
@@lordtherapeutics That's probably the worst journey you can possibly take on UK train network - likelihood of cancellation incredibly high, have never taken the full length without a breakdown and never more than two carriages for an exceptionally busy service across the length of the journey
@lordtherapeutics I'm on that one about once a month. The return trip from Nottingham in the evening is unbearable at times. For some reason it goes down from 4 to 2 coaches at Nottingham so everyone is crammed in with the isle full of people standing. The experince is not helped by Nottingham Station being an absolute mess with frequent (sometimes multiple) platform changes at the last minute and the train normally being late.
Don't forget the non-opening windows, leading to recycled air going around for hours.
"Unnecessarily complex ticketing system" - damn right!
Reduce fares for journeys down to split ticket prices where split tickets at certain stations they stop at in middle of journey make your journey cheaper than asking for an end to end ticket at the ticket office. It's shocking that it can be so much more expensive to get from A to B without splitting your ticket. Why a train fare should be a lot dearer travelling from one station to a destination than it from another station that's the station before only 3 minutes away. Can it be more expensive from stations one station closer to the destination? It's difficult to understand how and why so many of the fares are set the way they are.
Peak time train journeys are an ancient thing that was outdated long ago. Why not have business class carriages to replace first class carriages as well. They can be the extra peak time business class carriages on routes where there is currently only Standard Class travel available, but fares a bit more expensive than standard class travel. Currently First class peak time journeys are charged at a ridiculous extortionate price.
Maybe standard class train, tram, coach, ferry and hovercraft travel could offer fares at the same per mile rate, with integrated through tickets between all 5 modes of travel on offer as well. Plus bus options for normal bus journeys from/to all stations in the UK too.
@@dvidclapperton up in the north east there is a rail line that is having passenger services introduced or reintroduced (not sure which), and they have stated there will be integrated fares with the Tyne and Wear Metro for POP card users (its a contactless smartcard)
I suppose its a step in the right direction (but anyone who doesn’t have a POP card is out of luck, as I believe paper tickets will still be separate, although paper ticket prices do seem to follow the “Zone” system that POP cards use)
@@dvidclapperton "Why not have business class carriages to replace first class carriages as well."
What's the difference?
"They can be the extra peak time business class carriages on routes where there is currently only Standard Class travel available"
No there can't. Trains run in fixed formations and have done for decades. It's not economically viable to have trains or parts of trains that are only used for some of the day.
"train, tram, coach, ferry and hovercraft travel"
Er... _hovercraft_ ?!? The Hoverspeed service to France ended 20 years ago because the Channel Tunnel made it redundant. Is there anywhere in the world that hovercraft are used for public transport today?
@@pineappleroad "anyone who doesn’t have a POP card is out of luck"
It's so annoying when transit companies require you to have a special card to use their services, instead of just using the contactless debit/credit cards that we've all had in our pockets for the last fifteen years. It's like that elderly aunt who always gives you gift vouchers for birthdays and Christmas, only in reverse.
@@beeble2003 Portsmouth-Ryde is about the only one, I think
Having had the misfortune to undertake a few long journeys on these trains in 2nd class, I can confirm they are indeed hideous things. The seats are diabolical, barely any more comfortable than the Thameslink ironing boards (which are short distance commuter trains) while the ride quality is rough and levels of wind noise high. All in all, it makes for a tiring journey. Having travelled on a Siemens made AVE high speed train in Spain and an Austrian Railjet (also made by Siemens) they're like night and day compared to these torture chambers. With UK ticket prices we should have rolling stock of at least equal quality to these countries.
The discomfort is due to more than the seats. 10:02
This is that cǎpǐtǎIǐst "innovation" people keep talking about.
Make things worse, make more money, repeat.
@@henrybn14ar I agree, I quoted two other deficiencies in my comment above. Ride quality and wind noise. I can give you a fourth: they creak and rattle because they're flimsily built.
Well , rip off Britain
@@Londonsteve56 Yes, they certainly feel very flimsy.
I recently went from London to Edinburgh on LNER on a new train. The seats were similar to these and were causing me discomfort within an hour. After nearly five hours on the train it was agonising. The trains they replaced had great seats. Travel 20 years ago was way more comfortable than now.
They are sooooo uncomfortable!
Try Lumo next time, people in the comments here say they have better seats on their version of the train 😄
A 1970's Mk 3 or even a MK1or earlier compartment carriage would be more comfortable
Had the in-laws over from Texas a couple of years ago and wanted to take them from E'boro to London by train (so they could see our green and pleasant land, and learn what a public transport system looks like 😀)....
Had already heard bad things about the "Azuma" LNER seats, so decided I would splash out on 1st class. I gave a standard class seat a try during the journey and was absolutely dismayed that it passed the election process.
Compared to a Mk4 or Mk3 coach, the downgrade in comfort is a complete disgrace!!!
With six 1st class tickets to buy, I was bracing for a huge bill. But I was blessed that LNER were having a sale, so it didn't;t break the bank. But having tried the std class seat, I'd stump up for 1st class everytime now. At least until they retire / refit the Azuma stock.
I kid you not. I've had better seats on 60 year old Chinese trains.
The 800s have two problems. One is that they have replaced the class 253 HSTs, which have a better passenger ambience (and good seats) and the other is the seats.
It seems that almost all new British rolling stock has uncomfortable seating. The cheap and cheerful approach may be acceptable for short distance commuting, but for longer journeys a degree of comfort is essential.
They really should have used the seating and interior ambience of the GWR HST sets for their IETs. Though that wouldn't fix the awful ride quality of the older IETs. At least until they're refurbed, supposedly the newer IETs used by Lumo, Avanti, Hull and TPE ride much better.
There were projects within the industry years ago to make the seats as small as possible to get more seats in. I thought at the time that they would probably be uncomfortable due to lack of padding. But I imagine that thinness was the brief, not comfort. Iirc it was about the time that disabled toilets were making an appearance, which takes a lot of seat space out of the equation
There was a time when 'intelligent commentators' bought into the BMW 'ultimate driving machine' nonsense and decided that very firm seating was good. Based on the message promulgated in 1920's & 30's Germany by a General Practitioner medic for zero padding and very upright seats as ideal for good posture and eliminating back pain. Although largely disproved by decades of work, including that conducted by the BR labs at Derby when developing seating for high speed trains in the 1960's, the powers that be would rather go with the German mythology than studious research from the British Rail days. Because everything German is better, it says so in the advertising.
@@Dilbert-o5k but there was hardly any passengers they like empty seats ? as you can tell i hate trains take a coach if i have to cheers mate
Oh, come on... How else are they supposed to encourage you to visit the shop/snack bar to spend on their extortionately-priced fare?
0:11 that corrosion around the door really says everything about that train before I’ve even watched the video!!
The UK ordering the cheapest trains possible - and this is what you get! - rock hard 'ironing board' seats, carriages which are either too hot or too cold, dodgy WiFi, toilets (an option!), and yep, the rust.
These trains won't be around in 30 years time, because they'll all have had serious rust issues. Be lucky if they last 15 years.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that these long distance trains don't have a buffet car anymore. Don't you just love travelling long distance on UK trains?!! They really know how to look after passengers! lol
JR Cardiff
The GWR green almost could be JR east 😅
JR Cardiff would be run on time and on budget!
@@Simon-Andersen Saikyo Line 😅
Hitachi trains in Japan, on the other hand, are very smooth and comfortable.
I guess it just goes to show the extent of cost-cutting from UK train operators/ the UK government.
Terrible ride quality and an overall blandness - to think the Country which invented railways are now proud to assemble these non entities in kit form!
Yes, we make nothing here at all. None of the parts etc, no casting or our own steel. Its just other countries parts, banged together by minimum wage slaves in Hitachi factories etc....
@@Simon-xc5oy That's because of the global free market. Other countries can produce steel more cheaply than over here so that's what we use. Same with shipbuilding and most other heavy industries.
@@jc441-i3q I know. Trouble is the Chinese steel is crap. Its really pathetic. I have searched for tools for my car. Audi TT and it needs for example Torx screw bits. Got some of those...used them. Snapped rather than unbolt the bolt I was using them on. Got some more different ones...same thing...just fall apart. Spark plug remover...snapped..Oil filter wrench, snapped...all made in China with Chinese steel. My previous car a custom MX5 (had no original parts on it, all aftermarket) had a Super Dragger Stainless Steel exhaust, full system and manifold. Was on it when I bought the car...that stainless steel rusted at a joint and ....snapped! Had to take it to a specialist to get it welded. Proper quality stainless steel does not rust or mark. As its STAINLESS! And the welder said it was cheap Chinese stainless steel as that is all there is these days. Truly sad that we cant make things and compete anymore, due to the global markets as you say that is all true. We used to make our own steel and now in the future all these buildings etc will have issues due to the cheap Chinese rubbish they are made of. Cheap is not always better....
@Simon-xc5oy cheap chinese steal is crap. They can make good steel but its more expensive
I build these and they’re far from kit form.
Did you pay for your ticket in Japanese yens?
I would have liked to 😅 I have some leftover ones from my trip to actual Japan 😝
No he's an agent for Siemens, the company still going after using slave and forced labour during WW2, like many contemporary German Engineering firm. Convenient airbrushing. Companies like Siemens should pay reparations to Poland and occupied countries.
Those are literally S-Bahn seats (I'm actually not joking) on what's supposed to be equivalent to the ICE, while 1st class is basically a crappier version of ICE 2nd class (yes 2nd class) seats, all because the DfT insisted on being cheapskates for the initial batch that LNER and GWR have to put up with. Thankfully, later versions such as what Lumo have and what Avanti and EMR are getting have more acceptable seating, albeit still sub-standard compared the high-speed trains on the other side of the channel.
Try taking the latest ICE the seat spacing is a disaster.
@@malcolmelias3496ICE4? I‘m 1,94m and can’t complain. Lufthansa Economy on a long distance flight is worse.
@@malcolmelias3496 if you mean the ICE 3neo which I have ridden from Frankfurt to Cologne, they're still miles better (in terms of both comfort and spacing) than what our Avanti trains have (both refurb and unrefurb), which are one of the better modern seats in the UK. British loading gauge is a b*%ch.
Some of the earlier Eurostar sets had awful back killing seats too.
The worst thing about these seats is that as they wear out they reveal a metal bar across the base, which is as nice as it sounds. Nor is there space for a regular cafe bar onboard, though half of the first class is taken up by a kitchen that only gets used for 3 or so pullman services a day.
Even Cardiff's new tram-trains will have a better version of this seat with more padding, which is actually quite nice since you're no longer sitting on solid metal. Its a shame overall as in first class and better specified units, they're a solid intercity train.
Some of TFW Class 197s have got a food preparation area also.
@@johnUB4478Which won't be used
@@EE12CSVT I don't get why they've put them in, unless for that type of train, is fitted as standard?
@@EE12CSVTapparently they're going to use the fridge to cool the free bottles of water given to passengers when the air conditioning doesn't work very well 😝
@@johnUB4478it was KeolisAmey Wales (old 2018-2021 TfW Rail)'s decision to have it fitted.
These trains were specified by the government. They went for maximum seating capacity, using the thinnest, cheapest Fisa seats. The comfort could be so much better if higher specification seats were fitted. The ride is a different matter. UK track and particularly the small loading gauge needs different suspension to typical continental trains. BR Research did a lot of work on this in the 1960s and 1970s. Those lessons have been ignored and standard continental type bogies and suspension used. The result is a rough ride at speed and structural problems with the suspension mountings. This is also an issue on the CAF trains.
"..the thinnest, cheapest Fisa seats..". Presumably for "F.., I've a Sore Arse..."
Can you imagine these 800s lasting front-line service for forty years? Well, it's a tall order, but that's exactly what the BR 43/253 sets did and are sorely missed and not just by our backsides!
I'd give these 20 tops 😂
I have done this route regular and sometimes only as far as Bristol,,your analysis is perfect representation of these trains. All the best to you.
Thanks David
Damn I wish there was a Shinkansen from Penzance to Cardiff, Wal-oh sorry, I mean Japan.
Class 801 is a Hitachi, Japanese train ;)
Assembeld in UK.
@@stanley3647But the speed is not HSR.
@@elfinthaw1315 In UK is only one HSR, from STP to Euro Tunnel.
GWR is nowhere close to this.
And on HST1 (this HSR has own name in UK) also Hitachi trains are in operation (for local services to Ashford, Rammsgate or Dover...)
We already have to avoid Cross Country trains since their introduction and now we get these which are unbearably uncomfortable once you hit 3 hours on those seats. Given the high ticket price I only take the SWR line between Devon and London these days and they’re very comfortable.
I avoid XC as well...always use Chiltern Railways from my local station [Oxford]🙂
Mostly agree here. The IETs are woefully underequipped for the job they are meant to do - the GWR ones at least. I've commuted on them for college in the West Country for the last two years and used them on the long distance journeys. The seats are fine for 10 minute journeys, but I find them uncomfortable for the 3 hour journeys I undertake on them to London, heaven help people travelling to Penzance from London. I've regularly seen Bike spaces been completely used up and bikes spilling out into the vestibules. WiFi, albeit not great is a vast improvement over other GWR trains, I can at least load up an Internet tab, unless you happen to be in a tunnel. Toilets are adequate, thats it. They're often covered in graffiti, and the paint is peeling off which is never a good look, and if you look closely you will find a wonky panel in many coaches, even after about 7 YEARS in service. Compared with the HSTs, these are horrendous. First class is just a rip off imo.
You just have to apply the same suppression of nerves and emotion as network south west passengers standing for two hours out of Waterloo every day. Done both a lot and prefer sitting uncomfortably.
@@etherealbolweevil6268 Either that or nabbing an aisle seat, can stand for a minute or two then
I've travelled on them several times, from the south-west to Reading or Paddington for London airports and agree with all said here - they are a big step backwards from the HSTs. Also, the space to store large suitcases is hopelessly inadequate, especially on journeys toward London at busy times.
That wifi speed is basically a metaphor or signal of the level of productivity and efficiency in the UK
I won't argue about the seats - but the complaint of the shakiness and stability is more down to the rails these trains run on rather than the trains themselves.
Same for the wifi - all trains use the cellular network to provide Wifi coverage - the UK's 4G and 5G coverage outside urban centres has always been pretty shocking so its no surprise you had poor connectivity - it most likely was relying on a 2G signal
Superb. Went on one of these the other day Reading to Paddington and it was a delight, comfortable, smooth quiet and very fast.
The newer trainsets to Lumo and Avanti are coming with a better second class seats
And apparently some suspension improvements that make them much smoother riding than GWR or LNER.
@@mrvwbug4423Yeah there's a presentation by some of the Avanti engineers somewhere on UA-cam that goes into this. They went into quite a bit of detail about the improvements made to the newer models, but the 807s will still keep the "lightweight" bogies found on the unpowered coaches in the centre of 9 car 80x. These give the worst ride quality and Hitachi said they wouldn't change for an order as small as Avanti's.
And East Midlands Railway Class 810.
A very interesting video from the perspective of a Scandinavian visitor. I would certainly agree with many of your comments other than the location of Cardiff in Japan (there is not one there- I've looked!), but I would suspect that might have occurred with auto-correction of text, so I will forgive that.
These trains are one of the consequences of the privatisation of British Rail, where control was removed from an organisation that knew how to run a railway. They were specified by the Government's Department for Transport, who have determined that passenger comfort is unimportant if they can pack in more seats. Hitachi are a good manufacturer, but they can only provide what the incompetent customer specifies.
It seems that the toilet wash basins are frequently faulty in Britain- Due to simple equipment like taps (faucets) being replaced by high-tech sensors at greater cost. I remember when everything used to work and seats were comfortable.
Rail fares in Britain are extortionate, but again, this is due to the Government, whose dogmatic policies have wrecked the finances of most British industries.
High tech sensors are there to protect passengers from infection. As an aside, the UK is now the fourth largest exporting country in the world, so the finances don't seem to be quite so bad as you may think.
@@glynnwright1699 The most effective form of infection control is handwashing (especially after use of the toilet). If the water is not available due to sensor failure, as is now very common on trains, then the spread of infection is greatly increased.
@@MervynPartin It isn't rocket science, just make it work.
As soon as people start pushing political propaganda, their comments become rambling nonsense.
09:30 "... cost - cutting cattle carts for human transport..."
NUFF SAID
yeah, as in 'thank goodness he's stopped".
0:23 i have seen many comments about this but, I don’t think that cardiff is in Japan😂
Konnichiwa
We used to make our trains in Crewe…. Thanks a lot Maggie thatcher BREL rip😊
And York and Doncaster!
It was Sir John Major, not Margaret Thatcher, I think she thought it was a privatisation too far.
The government could have argued for BR to be exempt from EU Directive 91/440 in 1991due to it's efficiency. But they couldn't wait to break BR up so we lost a lot of our expertise and continue to waste money into share holders pockets while Government subsidy is far higher than in BR days. To add insult to injury it's virtually impossible to reverse the damage although gradual nationalisation as franchises end is a start i guess.
P.S. I don't like the new name 'Great British Railways' either, too nationalistic, we're not great any more and the trains aren't British any more, sad to say .
Agree about the seats, I travelled gwr Paddington - Reading return recently, last time was in a 2018 HST intercity 125, the HST was a proper intercity train with decent seats and nice interior, the class 800 is a very different experience, a tired interior, but they run fast so that 23 minute route is over quickly, wouldn’t want to stay sitting much longer.
Konichiwa a croeso i Gymru...
NB a chroeso i Gymru (aspirate mutation on the ‘c’ after ‘a’)
Os dych chi'n eisiau swnio'n posh, siwr@@hogyndrwg6253
Is it sad if I say that I thought they weren’t bad trains purely on the basis that it could have been a lot worse?
It’s electric, available seating screens, and fast. Most British people would have thought it was Christmas to have a *half good* train!
They're being ordered like crazy before the step free regulations hit. That train was chosen despite operators knowing they absolutely do not conform to incoming wheelchair regs, and that literally means no step and a 1m50 turning round at every doorway.
Christ, I thought Germany was bad with accessibility :(
@@jabberwockytdi8901 GWR knew the trains wouldn't meet the new standards and rushed the order through. Thus allowing every other operator to order the same type. They'll probably be around for about 10-15yrs more before having to be replaced.
Agree 100% First trip on these 4 years ago wasn't good. Hard uncomfortable seats. Door that refused to open. Recent trip W Cornwall to London..nothing changed except rough riding seems worse. Toilets cramped and acessible toilets few and far between which because of medical needs made things difficult. Another aspect apart from trolly which come along goodness knows when there is no catering on trains. Disgraceful for near 5 hour service. If train runs with 2 units (no connection between them) there is only 1 trolly between them so pot luck on whether it turns up. Seems backward step having to take your own packed lunch or evening meal with you. One of the delights of rail travel in trains even in BR days was that nearly all longer distance trains had a buffet or even restaurant car...and had nice comfortable seats. The inter city 125s were smooth riding. These 800s although having some technical improvements are from a passenger point of view a very backward step. Their rough riding is not much better than trains I have ridden on in Myanmar!
@@robindtgriffiths6487 the 125s had met the end of their extendable life, they couldn't be adapted for the new regs either. So buy the cheapest - off shelf - design possible, yet strangely having less wheelchair access due to a higher step. On the continent it's even worse with everything frantically going double decker. There's literally nowhere for wheelchair users to go once inside it's steps up or down. It's not just wheelchairs, could be elderly or anyone mobility impaired
@@Yandex-y1p Interestingly there are still a few ex 143's converted to 4 coach Castle class units that run mainly between Exeter Plymouth and Penzance. Real delight to ride on one if they turn up. The 158's also used mainly for all station Plymouth to Penzance services are also much nicer in both ride and seats.
The track is in a really poor condition. There is a plan to electrify between Patchway and Exeter St Davids. The class 802s have reached 148mph in service.
I don't see why on the London Paddington services, they can't operate at 140 . They need to be refurbished with better seats. I don't see why when they electrified to South Wales, they had the 91s and Mk4 sets off LNER-mire comfortable in my opinion and can operate at the same speed
@@Thechoppersofcardiff There is a few reasons why there is no 140mph, firstly you require in cab signalling above 125mph in passenger service, secondly the AT300s have not got the in cab signalling of ETCS which is installed on the GWML in a overlay mode for Heathrow Express to replace ATP as the 387s don't have ATP but have ETCS, thirdly after the TPE 148mph incident the AT300s have been fitted with a speed limiter.
There is a few reasons as to why the Class 91 Electra's + Mk4 sets where not used by GWR, firstly the 91s were life expired because they only had a design life of 30 years, secondly a lot of the 91s were only withdrawn in 2020 and GWR had replaced all of its High Speed fleet by August 2019. Thirdly GWR had limited resources to get new stock and if they had got the Mk4s it would have been to replace the Castles instead. If GWR would have got them to replace the AT300 in the cracking issues in May 2021, they would have required a lengthy training programme which would have taken over a yeah and at the driver training was banned for safety grounds.
It is true the mk4s are more comfy this because they were designed to ride like a HST 125 but at 140mph instead. The seats will be replaced we they come up for overhauls. The seats on the AT300s currently were the ones the DfT specked in the IPE tender which would have gone to bombardier if it wasn't modified.
The water was working, it’s just ridiculously difficult to activate the sensor which is somewhere up in the left corner and much further back than you would think.
Might as well not work then 😅 Haha thanks for pointing it out!
It's an eco-friendly approach 🙂
So Cardiff has moved from Wales to Japan now? Impressive. Any chance you can move Sheffield to St Tropez so we get nice beaches and sun.
Everything is possible when you copy templates and forget to change them :P
Well said and it needs an overseas visitor to add to add to the complaints about these dreadful attempts at trains. But if you think these 802’s are awful next time you come to the UK go for a long ride on the all second class 803’s and book seat C94 if it still exists.Haven’t got a clue how they can even charge for that seat. Railways in the UK are like all utilities, Cash Cows for foreign owners.
That's a lie.
Thanks for your video - as a resident of Exeter, I use these trains a lot and I think the seating is probably the worst I have experienced on any train in Europe. If I recall correctly, the original IET spec had some of the cheapest seats, ones that are designed for metro services which have gone into these GWR IETs. But as you point out, journeys on this route can be 4-5+ hours. When you look at other modern European services, the intercity offering is always much more comfortable and designed for long journeys, with this sort of seating reserved for regional or even local/metro services.
I hope that their midlife upgrade means a change to the seating.
I've only travelled in these in first class on LNER. The old 225 seats were far more comfortable but these are fine. The big issue is the LED lights inside are so stupidly bright and in a bright white colour. If you get an evening training from Kings Cross, its like being on the sun inside. The old trains had far softer lighting which meant you could still see perfectly fine but also rest if you needed to, these feel like being in a shitty office.
Agreed. It was the very first thing I noticed when I travelled on the new LNER Azuma. The old stock they replaced were far superior in every department.
I happened to be on an Avanti pendolino the other day (22-year old trains), and I used the same app to test the noise levels when cruising at 120mph+ … results: pendolino coasting 67dB (a bit quieter than an HST); pendolino under power 71dB, … and the figure for a GWR IET last week? 79dB / 81dB. Far far noisier than either the 22-year-old west coast 125mph stock, and far far noisier than the almost-50-year-old HSTs. And that's before we get to the ride quality, ambience (lighting … e.g. no reading lights!), and indeed the seats. Ho hum. Pendolino noticeably nicer in all those aspects … and they tilt. The IETs do have some advantages (better acceleration, more legroom and luggage space, bigger windows) but those are more than outweighed for me by the disadvantages. And yes, they can run on diesel, which is pragmatic, but itself an indictment of the failure to electrify most of the lines they run on in a timely manner.
Don't forget the most important metric: reliability. Class 800/801/802 are in a different league for technical reliability compared to HST or 390. RDG data online tells the story.
At least Greater Anglia have got the Stadler FLIRT Class 745 and Class 755 that were built and manufactured in Switzerland. And the seats on the Class 745 and Class 755 are very comfortable.
As a regular user of the Norwich to London service I can attest to these trains being extremely good. Tbf to Greater Anglia their services have massively improved in the last few years. They used to always be in the news for absolutely crap services
With the DfT in charge, what else can you expect?
Should have stuck with the HS125 over 40 years old and still good.
They were not "good" at all. It beggars belief that people want half a century old trains kept in service.
Australians think highly of their XPT’s and the Mexicans are enjoying ours now.
@@adammoss5284mexican railways should never be used as a example of sanity
@@painting4850 the same can be said for these new trainsets.
@@Bungle2010 well, not a worn out tired and dilapidated HS125, no. I'd agree. But swap the motive power for a decent electric unit and a MK3 or MK4 set of a well maintained, refurbished 'as-new' set, absolutely. When in good condition they are more spacious, quiet, comfortable, with excellent ride quality. I was lucky enough to get a ride in the newly refurbished original M3 set that is doing the tour of preserved lines. In an as-new state like those they absolutely knock all the spots off these modern sets.
I've heard it said that a country's railway offering can reflect the nation as a whole. It this case, it seems true; cheap, tacky, uncomfortable and stupidly expensive.
It annoys me that this train was really bad. I’m a Hitachi fan myself and I love their Japanese products like the Sotetsu 20000 and also the E5, E6 and E7 Shinkansens. They’re very reliable and amazing trains in Japan and surely they also have similar great trains overseas. Even the 395 is a great train. I wonder if it is because the train is made in the UK or Italy but well, I can’t judge can I? All I can say is that I hope they improve their quality in the future hopefully.
It's a shame the quality of these 800 class trains is so poor, as they look really good in my opinion, beautiful streamlined shape! I read somewhere that Hitachi never intended this class of train to be used as a long distance ICE, but as a short suburban journey train!!
Sadly a correct report, as I found out myself from Exeter to Bristol (I can still feel the pain of that iron bar that you feel on a worn seat). Luckily, pax like me who live between Honiton and Yeovil can choose to travel via Salisbury to Bristol which is a bit slower but the trains are more comfortable and as frequent plus your ticket is valid via either way,.
Its a good thing he didn't go on an old arriva train, the company ran by Deutsche Bahn:
It was almost criminal how bad those trains where,
Worst train seats ever. Excruciatingly uncomfortable, way too firm, too little padding, and even though they aren’t that old the padding is already deteriorating, you can feel the frame of the seat through the padding on many of them. Awful, and to think how comfortable the old Class 43s were.
Apparently the switch from comfortable seats to uncomfortable seats is due to fire safety standards that were introduced, the old comfortable seats were quite flammable. I guess it is taking a while for train fitting companies to come up with non-flammable comfortable replacements (or the uncomfortable ones are just cheaper 🤷🏻♂️)
We got similar fire-regulations in the EU and we can still make comfortable seats, its a cost cutting measure unfortunately.
Dutch guy in the UK here. The seats are by far the worst aspect on UK trains, at least compared to Dutch ones. They are very tall, blocking your view, kind of creating cubicles of isolation. And they are very thin, sacrificing comfort.
Yes, I went an old Intercity train on Chiltern recently, and people were commenting how spacious it seems - better window design possibly, but mainly shorter seats, which give the impression of much more space.
Just spent a week in Holland and the trains are very good and smooth riding, with very reasonable fares - went from Ede to Schiphol airport for about £16!
Crazy thing is
The class 800,801,802,803,804,805 all look like copy’s of each other but in a different livery
Class 43 HST is comfier and fastest diesel in the world. If it was up to me I’d send all the 800’s back and bring all HST’s out of storage and refit them with Paxman Valenta engines like the old days. Screaming and smoking out of the stations a real spectacle. Best trains in the world a symbol of everything right with British engineering.
yeah, let's all drive Model T Fords as well, that'll show em!
Let's roll back to steam locos and Mk1s.
@@richardlionheart3965 no Rich I’m not saying that, although I can see why my comment might be interpreted that way. No Model T Fords, I beg you! That being said, a lot of mechanics say the last sweet spot for most cars is 2012 (older for the higher tech cars). “Proper” Volvos that do moon mileages ended with the V70, and BMW and Mercedes became used car timebombs in many models after 2003 due to the over use of plastic parts under the engine. Take the MK3 Focus. I’ve got a 1.6 4 cylinder Duratec with Variable Cam Timing, a tried and trusted engine that’s evolved from the Zetec in the 90’s that replaced the CVH..actually very simple and reliable engines if oil changes were done VERY frequently but they were noisy, harsh and not particularly economical on fuel. The twin cam 16 valve Zetec was a decent replacement for the CVH. Progress. I managed an average 28mpg in a 1.8 Zetec 1995 engine for round town driving and some longer journeys. In the Duratec I’m averaging 43mpg. Progress again. What has replaced my Duratec? A 1 litre 3 cylinder EcoBoost with turbo to achieve the same power and in some cases better acceleration. I smelt a rat and when looking for another car a few years ago wouldn’t even look at a Focus with that 1.0 engine. Pushing a lot of power with turbocharging through such a tiny engine means driving it to within an inch of its life. It’s all coming to light now. Wet timing and oil belts that start to disintegrate from being in oil and those bits of belt clog up oil feeds starving parts of oil, plus the scored channels on the cylinder head to allow cooling resulting in cylinder head walls so thin coolant leaks into the cylinders. So many destroyed engines. Not progress what were Ford playing at? Most cars though 2012 onwards are using too much plastic and adding technology we don’t want or need, making them expensive nightmares. Elon Musk is a bright guy but you’d find it hard to believe with those rubbish Tesla cars. A central screen display so the driver instead of glancing down at his dash to check speed, revs etc has to look to the centre of the dash taking his attention off the road? Crazy. My point to all this car talk applies to trains. I don’t want stream engines they were woefully inefficient. But the HST? Its age is deceiving. It was years ahead of any other train when it came out (XPT more technical marvel but was too soon for its time until Europe perfected the tilt) and received a number of major upgrades over the years, including the new engines which were mostly the German 16 cylinder MTU 4000 R41’s or Paxman VP185’s. Both brilliant engines that were running just fine and didn’t need replacing for new trains. In fact it was only a few years ago one of the major operators of the HST fleet had all their MTU engines overhauled. I know I says in my comment I’d put all the old engines in but that is me dreaming of their glory days and screaming. Although too quiet for my tastes I accept the only reason we kept HST’s in mainline service was because of the upgrade to those MTU engines. They are brilliant and met all Euro compliance for emissions, no smoke visible, just a heat haze from the exhaust due to the high tech diesel particulate filter systems. The VP’s were an older design but delivered all the power with 4 less cylinders, you’d get a few puffs of diesel clag when leaving the station but these were also fairly smokeless compared to the original engines. The carriages had massive overhauls to make them suitable for today’s laws on safety and disability (slam doors were replaced, new toilets for disabled people). The pee and poop was admittedly dumped straight onto the track (stopped the problem of smell though!) but this could have been upgraded. A long post yes but my point being: the HST had many changes to ensure reliability and passenger comfort for 21st century standards. These Hitachi trains don’t feel like progress when comfort levels are inferior to the HST. Just like the Voyager trains, noise and vibration from underfloor engines, HST’s again superior despite being the older trains. If it ain’t broke. Yes one day the HST’s would have needed to be replaced but we had many more years of service and that time could have been spent finding a really good proper replacement.
I had to stand up on one of these on a busy service the other day. Trying to stay stable with all the shaking and swaying was very difficult and uncomfortable, I kept getting scared I was going to spill hot coffee on myself or others.
I didn't know that part of Wales is in Japan, wheres the bullet train?
The Hitachi AT300's use "bullet train technology", does that count? 😆😝
They are built by Hitachi that counts right 😅
@@Simon-Andersen fair enough 😅
Well, I thought this was going to be just another one of those 80x haters bemoaning the loss of our BR-era classic stock and slagging off the new trains needlessly. But all in all, that was pretty fair. Note the irony of being whisked passed a siding full of ex-LNER Mark IV trailers with their plush, comfy padded seats that I, personally, have seen many a man woman and child drooling in slumber in.
Thanks Steven! Glad you liked the video, i tried out the Mark IV on the TfW Premier service and those have much better seats indeed!
Since the end of the end of the 80s when we started having trains that were little more than flimsy coaches, train travel has been awful in the UK. I remember in the 60s/70s/ 80s when we had the big diesel trains, class 37 with the old 'heavy' type of BR carriages, maybe not the cleanest, but those seats were comfortable and the train wasn't noisy and didn't vibrate. No matter what they'll have you believe, BR was pretty good until the arrival of these cheap and light foreign made trains.
I agree broadly however the Class 158 is sublime (and was made in the UK although the Pacer was also made in the UK, so not a garentuee of quality.)
Mk3 coaches built in the late 70s/early 80s for InterCity HST/Loco Hauled services was the high point in carriage design on Britain's railways...its been going downhill ever since sadly☹
First class in these is actually pretty comfortable, I did Cardiff to Penzance and back - my ticket actually being cheaper than a regular ticket weirdly, or I'd have just gone regular class. Even managed to sleep fairly soundly.
I had no idea how bad standard class was and now I see it, it looks very uncomfortable and cheap. Disappointing to see that they cut costs on standard class so badly as that is how the majority of people - including myself - usually travel by when going anywhere by train just because of how expensive trains are to travel by.
The IET is a pretty good train platform, only the introductory TOCs had absolutely shite seat selection forced on them by the Treasury. The 803, 805, 807, and 810 (EMR even let passenger test them in certain stations while in development) all have better seats. Pretty sure when the 800s, 801s, and 802s are due for a refurb they'll be pretty great.
Yes. They just need to sort out the wheel hunting, but that involves TOCs and NR working together so hahahaha good luck.
They are a fundamentally flawed concept- see my comment earlier.
@@justhowulikeit6432
The hunting is probably incurable. The vehicles are too long, the wheelbase is too short, the wheels are too small.
@@henrybn14ar Yeah, and those wheel issues cause massive derailments in low-speed collisions, which Hitachi failed at modeling (or covered up, it's likely with the Japanese) and was only revealed after one got hit.
We were riding around in smoother, quieter and more comfortable trains back in the 1970s built by BR. This is purely about cost; Exeter to Penzance is a lovely journey, even in this rolling stock, which has the benefit that it provides free passage for our dog. He roams the carriage under the seats saying hello to all the passengers. And, before some jobsworth reprimands me, everyone was keen to greet him and it made their journey on those uncomfortable seats a bit more enjoyable.
9:05 "Thanks to the U.K.'s needlessly complex ticketing system" That's putting it mildly! I can go from Sydney to Newcastle (New South Wales) in a bit more than that time covering 165km, paying $A10.33 or $A7.32 off-peak and half that if you are a student (divide roughly in half to get GBP). And no such thing as advance booking; you can simply show up 5 minutes before departure and get on (although might not get a window seat if you board that close to departure time).
Unfortunately Transport4NSW will soon introduce "new" trains on that run which have seats suspiciously like those on your train. And non-reversible too, which has generated a lot of criticism from locals who have had reversible seats on our trains since 1878 and are well liked.
I’ve been on the Azuma lner train and in my opinion it was pretty ok. Though that’s maybe because lner is a pretty good government owned railway company.
VTEC specified those interiors. But yes, the red hot Azuma interior is much more pleasant.
Are these the same ones used on the east coast mainline from London to Edinburgh? If so they're the worst for passenger comfort. The seats are too upright so you cant fall asleep as you constantly rock forwards, the seats aren't winged, the train rocks and shakes like crazy, it doesn't seem to tilt around highspeed corners so your table items are thrown out to the side. Constant delays. Im sure some of that is down to track, and internal passenger configuration but when taking the west coast mainline to glasgow i thought things were much smoother, more comfortable, better seats. That said i think the Lumo service on the east coast mainline at least has better seating configs, with seats having wings like airplanes do and a steeper recline so you can sleep on a long trip.
Still, utterly embarrassing compared with our neighbours in France.
Yes they are! I've also heard the Lumo ones are better but the LNER ones are very similar to gwr
They don't have the best ride quality when paired with some crap line quality... However, the main issue is the seat type they were forced to use by the DFT and thus poor comfort. The newer units with Avanti and those in use by Lumo with a different seat manufacturer instantly have a much better overall experience. Other than that, they're pretty decent and have great acceleration, which helps cut journey times or rid delays when there has been a hold up.
Not to mention the bi mode features make them accessible on more routes
Seems like I should come back and try some of the newer ones at some point
@Simon-Andersen definitely do ! Be good as a comparison video 👍
Thank you for your very honest account. Having used the service recently from Birmingham to Stoke on Trent, and back, travelling in the rush hour,., I agree with everything you have said.
Du skal regne med at GWR var de første som fik disse 800 sæt og den engelske regiring og GWR havde besluttet at de sæder i standard klassen skulle være strygebræt sæder. De nye sæt 805 som Avanti west coast har modtaget har bedre sæder i standard klassen og ser helt andetleds ud. Jeg er fan af disse togsæt på el kan du komme imellem de store byer på ca 2 timer med 200 km/t
The rotten seats are only a little bit of what is wrong with these trains.
Jeg bør prøve en af de nyere versioner af 800 familien
I remember travelling on one of the old 1970s UK high speed trains in about 2016 (when they were still in service) at dusk, and recall the ride being surprisingly smooth - it reminded me a lot of a calm ferry crossing. I haven't found the new generation trains to be as smooth as what it was, though they are more environmentally friendly.
There seems to be a stretch just west of Chippenham station where the westbound Great Western Railway track tilts noticeably to the left (and a bit shortly after where it tilts noticeably to the right). Given that it is also on a tall embankment, I've been a little nervous everytime I've been on that bit of railway. My memory of the journey I took in 2016 was that the 1970s high speed trains handled it better than the current late 2010s trains.
Your comments about these trains are spot on. I've used them only when on holiday in the south west and they are fine for journeys of one hour or less but for anything else they are terrible. My criticisms are the poor ride quality particularly over poor trackwork, the ironing board seats, the harsh overhead lighting and the green interior colour scheme is not really to my taste. There is just no comparison with the old HST trains which have served the railways well for the past 40 odd years and which were a darned sight more comfortable. I know the train operating companies are largely constrained by government finance and health and safety regulations but I think they could do a lot better. Does anyone in GWR management listen to customer feedback at all ?
I travelled on one of these, Newport to Paddington and return. I'd have been more comfortable standing! By the time I was home again, my back was in absolute agony. The valleys service from Newport up to Ebbw Vale had infinitely more comfortable seating.
That Cardiff, Japan tho makes me wonder the IET was caused that 😂😂😂😂😂😂
The reason of those horrible seats, is the DfT lol, cost cutting moments... although you can try the Lumo's class 803 and Avanti's Class 805
For the first supersonic train in the world it seems to be quite comfortable. Five hours from Japan to England!
He's Danish 😊
Having been on all 3 of GWR's IET Types all on the same service what is the 20:03 From London Paddington to Plymouth as far as Taunton as I get the 20:03 almost atleast once per month and my main problem with them is what you get a 5 car Class 800 on this service as its a stupidly busy service the fav one is the 9 car Class 802 type as its all one until and not 2 put together meaning you can walk stright through
oh and for this Taunton to London return trip I pay £109 but this is through booking in advance and a split save as the walk up fare is £299
Oh yes, I travel on these trains every day unfortunately and I can confirmed their seats are the most uncomfortable of all trains! Some of the GWR staff are really rude as well. GWR doesn’t know how to train their staff in customer service.
Are they bad as the class 700 if yes then i feel the really bad for you neverless
0:25 cardiff, japan....at first i thought...is it cardiff TO japan..but that's not possible by train...? and then i wondered is this a theme amusement park in japan designed to look like a uk town?
And then you hopefully realized I just made quite the mistake in copying my location template 😅
In regards to why we keep ordering them the answer is there’s nothing else. With the exception of the CAF Civity there’s no other intercity train that can be bought of the shelf here in the UK at the moment. If we wanted to order intercity trains from a different company i.e Alstom or Siemens it would have to be completely re designed to fit our loading gauge. That intern puts up the cost, costs that most company’s and the DFT aren’t prepared to invest. But then again perhaps we should be grateful that CRRC hasn’t yet entered the UK. Given there performance with MBTA and SEPTA things could be a lot worse.
Am I right, that GWR were wanting the Class 365s at one time, and were told by the DfT that they were to have to 387s, as they were added on the back of an order from another toc?
The UK loading gauge is not a big issue. There a many narrow gauge railways with similar loading gauges. The IEP bodyshell is a standard Japanese design.
The main reason for the high cost of new trains is that they are grotesquely over engineered.
@@johnUB4478 To be fair the Electrostars are one of the better trains operating in the UK, at least for commuter services, though with the right seating I think a 387 could handle some inter-city runs much like the Class 350s operated by LNWR.
The IET is ironically still probably better than the Civity. My first hand experience on a Civity was pretty bad, one of the dreaded TfW class 197s, that TfW considers inter-city trains. I've heard the class 397s used by TPE might be slightly less bad than the GWR and LNER IETs. The 197 is literally worse than a 30+ year old class 158.
@mrvwbug4423 I found the seats on the 197s OK, but the ride very judery. I'm not sure why the 197s have a food preparation area on either
It is a fast train. Not high speed
Technically high speed should travel over 200km/hour and should have dedicated high speed track. Most international HSR in Japan, South Korea or Taiwan travels over 300km/hour
We don't call them shithatchi 800's for nothing
Sad if they’ve let go of the quality that always came along with the brand.
The problem is the Hitachi trains in Japan are great, but the U.K. rail companies seem to push for the cheapest component and seating. Exactly same train stock, completely different mentality towards providing quality rail services
If the train is full, sit on the floor or the luggage rack, covid ventilation guarantee infections, but it is better than bus travel as they don't operate past 8am, get used to it everything in the UK is substandard as a friend used to say "play it by ear" .
These trains are great imo, its just become fashionable to hate them among (other) train enthusiasts over love to their predecessors. Especially with the seats on newer trains, looks good and great acceleration, glad to see them around! 👏
The IET family of train’ quality is very different depending on each operator…
The GWR ones are the worst
LNER ones are mediocre (and Hull)
TP IETs are decent.
And the Lumo and AWC ones are actually pretty good
The EMR ones are *probably* going to be good but it remains to be seen.
It still is weird that there are so many variations if what is basically a family of trains.
Even weirder is that AWC is GWR are basically operated by the same company (Although AWC is 30% Trenitalia and 70% First)
Weird in the fact that the IET quality is drastically different on AWC and GWR*
As a local of GWR and their IETs, I don't understand the hate. I find them well sized, fast, comfortable and smooth enough. The only issue is the reliability; namely the cracks found which took them fully out of service for a few weeks.
I'm with you on this. I myself like them also.
I think the problem is as a new fleet they dont meet some fairly basic modern standards. If we'd looked at these 10 years ago you'd think they were great. In 2024 however they're "ok". The seats are inexcusible and clearly were a budget constraint. The ride being poor, the overall "cheap" feel and very basic amenities, combined with the poor seats is what makes them only "ok".
When you compare it to modern fleets in other countries they are laughably basic.They'd be fine on a local route but for long distance they're just all around a poor train when compared to other modern fleets. It does feel a little like some are excusing it because of how awful our rail fleet has been for years so in comparison these can seem fantastic.
@Rick-vm8bl I had a couple of trips on some 197s last week. Tbh, I was glad to get off them, and was most glad when some 153s turned up
In a few days time I will be travelling to Devon in one of these. I'm not looking forward to it but the prospect of driving there in summer is even worse. If the powers that be really want us out of our cars and into public transport they will need to do better than this. I used to travel by train a lot many years ago (Steam Days!) and remember seats that actually had decent cushioning, even if there was a layer of dirt over most things. I'd rather have a 3 hour journey in comfort than a 2 hour one on cheap "upholstery".
@@MrDavil43 it could be worse. You could be travelling on a GWR Class 387. The seats are awful on them.
The longest train trip I used to take over 48 months exactly was the 100 km WR: between Wellington (NZ) and Masterton,,using refurbished Mk 2 ex BR carriages dating from around 1972. Comfortable and relaxing, well upholstered , power points for every passenger, but no wi-fi ( life goes on). Cost.. for 90 mins averaging 62 km/hr about 11£
0:22 this is a troll right? Normally, I would dismiss this as a troll but Simon has never come off as a trolling type of person 😂
Just a mistake on my end this time! 😅
@@Simon-Andersen dude you should try making this a recurring gag in your videos 😂
“Today I am at Amsterdam Centraal Station”
*shows the logo for Amtrak in the corner*
Anyways keep up the good work 😁
This video follows an aviation vid all about North Korea and dare I say it, the North Korean aircraft, mainly vintage soviet designs going back 50+ years, were better kept than any of our trains. The UK is fast becoming the first post first world country.
You made sacrifice for us so we don’t have to .
I would not touch any seat bottom on any train in the UK. These train are not only horrible, they are also usually badly cleaned, hence the brown stains when you showed footage of the power sockets under the seats, and if you are near a toilet then the smell can also be overwhelming. Add to this the reliability of arriving at your destination on a parr with a hot air balloon then you see why all the roads in the UK are chock-a-block. ...and also being a complete ripoff.
The whole concept is flawed: carriages too long, wheelbase too short, wheels too small, window bay spacing is wrong dual mode is wasteful and inefficient.
It's asking for trouble.
Cheap though. We have to remember profit for investors is the priority in modern Britain.
@@richardwarren4830 they get a guaranteed return "profit" even when there's no profit being made. Risk free, hardly the spirit of entrepreneurship
The wheelbase is 100mm longer than an N700 Shinkansen with the same size wheels. Have you ridden on one of those to experience the ride quality?
What aspect of the bi-mode design is wasteful and inefficient?
Just as other people have pointed out; the HST trains, albeit old were a darn sight more comfortable and had similar amenities in terms of size and seat reservation systems. In Scotland, we've kept them and run them as smaller intercity 6 car jobs that have been refurbished. Even the Class 365 we use are better. It's all well and good being fast, but I want to get there in comfort and the ability to stand again.
We use to be a world leader in trains but my God have we fallen well behind the rest of the world, I would safely say we have the worst rail infrastructure of any developed country. These shite Hitachi trains we have now are just embarrassing they are terrible.
@@paulwilkinson8347 you're not wrong, I'm struggling to think of one area we are class leading....
We are world leaders at moaning on the Internet.
@timmelia7551 not just Internet.
Yeah the UK definitely isn't a world leader anymore, but it's still far from the worst 😅
Too many parasites are leaching too much money out of the Railway at every point in the system. The IET is reflective of this in as much as there was barely enough left in the coffers after all the above had taken their cuts and commissions.
I travelled from Paddington to Penzance during the first year these trains came into service. It was the height of summer and the air conditioning broke. Because the windows don't open, we were diverted to Taunton, where an engineer was picked up and we had a twenty minute break for fresh air. Took me right back to the early days of steam travel, except only the inconvenience and none of the romanticism.
I travel on these trains every day on the way to/from work, which is only a 20 minute journey, but I’ve also travelled on them extensively long-distance.
Honestly, I don’t think they’re that bad. The seats can be hit-or-miss depending on how worn out they are, but certainly after 4 hours or so it definitely starts to become uncomfortable.
They obviously don’t compare to other electric units like the 390s or older Mk3/4 sets, but I’d say there are no long-distance DMUs in the UK better than the IETs. I’d certainly rather an IET over the likes of a Voyager or an Adelante without hesitation.
Of what I've personally ridden in the UK, for me the best trains are basically a 2 way tie between the 390s and the MK4s. I've ridden the TfW mark 4s that are hauled by class 67s and they were very quiet and comfortable, I've heard the IC225 MK4s that still operate with LNER might be even better. The 390s are also quiet and comfortable, except for tunnel blast if the door seals are getting dodgy.
Very fair and salutory review!!! Thank you! 😊😊😊😊
Thanks for watching!
カーディフ?
I remember just a few years ago travelling from Reading to Penzance on one of the remaining British Rail HST's that GWR were still (just) using. As the HST pulled away from a standstill I swear it seemed as though it was the platform itself that was moving (backwards, of course!). That was common with HST's - they all pulled away imperceptibly like that and I always enjoyed that 'moment' whenever I travelled on one.
Leaving Reading, this HST accelerated to around 45-50 MPH (imposed speed limit) and, as the scenery just west of Reading isn't particularly arresting to look at, I buried my nose in the novel I'd brought along for the journey. Around twenty minutes later I looked up from my book and, looking through the passenger window, I could see the scenery was by now simply flying past - and I HADN'T NOTICED THE STEP-UP IN SPEED! That's how good the HST was.
Recently, I did this very same journey on one of these Hitachi trains and I have to say I was disappointed at the comparative lack of refinement AT ANY SPEED of the new train. As mentioned, the seats are very firm with precious little 'give' in the cushioning, but what I thought was MOST TELLING OF ALL was that on every left-hand bend in the track (all the way down to Penzance, by the way) my carriage would creak noticeably in its structure under the load (g-force) of negotiating a bend. This seemed to point to a fundamental lack of torsional rigidity/stiffness in its basic construction. Now maybe that was peculiar to the particular carriage in which I was travelling - I don't know - but it wasn't reassuring, I have to say. Going from an HST to a Hitachi was like stepping out of a ruggedly-built pre-2000's Mercedes-Benz into a 1970's Ford Cortina! And if you like 'car analogies' (!) I would absolutely consider the HST to be the Rolls-Royce of passenger trains.
I'll never understand why folks from other countries feel the need to lie about the British weather. London not even in the top 30 rainiest cities in Europe, but you crack on with the stereotypes my man.
First of all, London is not the rainiest location in the UK, and he was talking about the UK in general which is one of the rainiest countries in Europe. He did not mention London as he wasn't there and it's not the rainiest place in the UK.
As for the notions, it's not just about the amount of rain but the number of days it does rain and even London gets a lot of them, just not pouring rain but constant light annoying rain. Apart from that even when it does not rain it's a lot of time gloomy and cloudy and is one of the cities with the least duration of sunshine in Europe among the bigger cities.
And apart from all that, this notion comes from you. People in the UK say that that's the way it is, your TV programs present the situation that way so even if it was not true you're the ones that say it's like that.
@@AL5520 Seems I've touched a nerve. Of course London isn't the rainiest place in the UK. But if you're trying to measure fairly, rather than make a point you've preconceived in your head, you obviously need to choose a specific - but atypical - place due to the wildly varying climates experienced across individual countries - would you call Spain cold just because you can go skiing in the mountains? But I'll play your game for a second; take Londonderry in Northern Ireland, the ACTUAL wettest place in the UK, and it still doesn't even come in the top 10. And please don't tell me I need to point out that cloud (which I completely agree the UK does experience a lot of) isn't the same thing as rain. And to your last point, I will concede some people do like to joke about the weather, but some also like to joke about how we're going to win every football tournament we enter - but I bet you don't think we're amazing at football...
@@AM-sc1oz The one that complained is you so you are that one that someone touched his nerve (Simon and now me). When Simon talked about the UK in general you've opted to talk about London, even though he wasn't in London. As facts show London is not the rainiest place in the UK but it is cloudy and gloomy more the the vast majority of big cities in Europe.
As for your point on Spain, it's sound like a climate denier that mentions a specific place and point in time while the data is an average. The facts are that, as i said in my reply, the AVERAGE rain fall in the UK is one of the highest in Europe. This means that there are places with and duration that it might be higher of lower but the general amount over the year of the UK is high.
It's also a fact that most of the people in the UK think that, say that, complain about that and use every opportunity to go for a sunny break in a place with less rain and gloom.
That said, the UK, is still a great and beautiful place, despite (and probably also due to) it's weather.
@@AL5520try Aberdeen.
@@martinbitter4162
I still remember the Scottish hotel opening lines in Little Britain 😂
Are the seats actually made with the train or fitted later by a different company?
I think it's a different supplier but it's agree upon around the ordering of the train so changes can be made to accommodate the seats chosen if needed
Well, about the wifi speed mentioned at 5:28 Please note going anywhere west of Reading the mobile data speeds are generally just terible, so you can't expect to get any good wifi on these trains. The United Kingdom is basically a third world nation except for London. 😄
You might want to include London, actually.
its a close call between these and the voyagers for worst train, voyagers are very noisy in operation but i think the seats are worse in the IET's and i hope no one has to be on one of them when a door seal is faulty because everytime the doors close at a station everyones ears get that horrible pressure build up (happened to me on the first one i rode at plymouth) the best ride comfort has to be the 125's closely followed by the 225's
They are such a backward step from the 40 year old HST.
The poor WiFi isn't the train's fault. It's just acting as a repeater for the mobile network, which is terrible in rural areas.
Ironing board seats.😡
Most of are trains are foreign built CAF Spain. Cheap as f..k. Hitachi or shitachi. Or stadler Waldorf and stadler of the Muppet show.
GWR are the worst . And in the UK they have some serious competition as there are many terrible train operators in the UK. £13 Billion subsidy a year and the most expensive train fares in the developed world.