I worked the waterfront for several years. The scaler was used for heavy rust and made quick work of that. Sandblasters came afterwards and cleaned up the rest to get ready for paint.
Was gonna say: these are two tools for two different applications that sometimes overlap. Like a box wrench or a socket? IDK. Either way, having both is beneficial and neither is too expensive to not have around if you're restoring things.
@@jwm6314 This is what's wrong with youtube. You get people who don't know what they are doing either claiming to teach or they make comparisons on things they know nothing or very little about that results in extremely skewed wrong information. In the mean time you have the youtuber who is actually professional who doesn't get view or hits because all the nobody armatures dilute the search making the real experts harder to find.
Yep, two different tools for two different jobs. BTW, I was in the navy, the reason we used scalers is because the salt water quickly causes metal scale. Surface rust we just painted over cause they added rust inhibitors in the paint.
Video starts at 4:00. Also for that project I would say a paint removal wheel would have been much faster than either of those. Especially if mounted on an angle grinder than a drill. You can remove in 2 seconds what took 2 minutes on the sand blaster. If you have lots of open space like this then use the paint stripper wheel. The other tools are mainly for internal detail work.
I was an “impact surface abrasion technician” for a number of years. This test is not really correct as as others have said the needle gun is for heavy scaling. For example. Steel of iron that has seen much salt water for decades or a stock trailer chassis that has taken thousands of beasts on their last journey to the slaughter house. The layers of delaminating steel will just absorb the blast cleaning. Needle guns, lump hammers, cold chisels and even SDS drills with chisel attachments get the worst off. Then hit with an abrasive shot. Steel shot or copper slag. That blaster though looks like it wouldn’t clean the skin off rice pudding to be honest though. Still, good effort. Keep the videos coming.
Others have mentioned the true use of the needle “scaler”. Another great use for the needle scaler is to knock scale off of welds, this also hammers the weld to cause the weld to relax and not pull the metal as much.
Those are two different tools for two different jobs, you can't really compare them. If you had a decent blaster not a little hobby one you would find a world of difference too for that job. Mine feeds perfectly and holds a lot of sand so I can work much longer with out hassles.
yeah, the scaler is more for removing welding slag . cant immagine it being any good for rust like what he is dealing with... I'd use a 4" grinder and a wire cup for what he is doing.
yeah...I know what you mean...the kind that you need an air supplied bee keepers hood and gloves. For that frame , I would take a grinder and grind all the flat sections with an 80 grit disc...and leave the nooks and crannies to the sand blaster.
I used the scaler a lot while working tankers, yours just didn't sound like it was adjusted correctly.. Also they are better suited to removing heavy scale rust, then finish with sandblasting before finishing. I believe both tools are well suited to their roles, but those roles are a bit different.
i think its to do with the compressor not being able to have enough air to feed it. you need a stupidly high CFM to work a needle gun if it doesn't have that it won't work as well you can also tell the compressor isn't big enough because of the periodic stopping and starting.
@Rowan Brecknell yeah just did the calculations its roughly needed is 26 CFM with the needle gun and 10ft of hosing which is in the realms of 2 stage compressors. his is only a single pump probably why the needle gun isn't working because his compressor isn't big enough to run optimally.
@Rowan Brecknell if your looking for high CFM compressors for cheap go for the old army surplus compressors the ones with the scuba bottle tanks can produce that all day every day i picked mine up for $500 best bang for your buck.
Use the needle scaler on tools and equipment that have leftover concrete on their surfaces. it rocks. sand blaster has no chance. make sure your air pressure is adjusted correctly on the scaler so it will be more effective.
The needle scaler has its place on heavy rust with layers or chunks of rust that are leaving holes when the chunks are chipped off. Much of the time, that metal can still be used, and because the chunk of rust is removed the metal can be coated with paint or similar product and it will not continue to rust in those areas. The sandblaster has its place on surface rust but most of the time will not remove chunks of rust thus not stopping future rust under those chunks which will eventually fall off and leave rusty divots. They both have their own advantage. Sometimes, depending on the metal, both are useful since many rusty surfaces have a combination of the two types of rust. In the application this person was working, he had only shallow rust and the sandblaster was the better tool.
The needle scaler is designed for removing mill scale and weld slag, that's what it does best. It's not intended for rust removal and (of course) it doesn't perform well at that task.
It is actually intended for removing rust as well. There are SSPC specifications for cleaning with a needle gun. You can't expect to get sp1 or sp2 quality no a blast profile that some coatings spec out, but, there is an appropriate place for it when removing rust as well as scale slag etc.
Navy vet. Plenty of needle gun experience. Also was lead PO of a sand blasting team in the yards during drydock. The Navy used needle gunning because it's cheap. Sand blasting with a real setup is easily the better option if you want it done fast and easier. Could do that whole trailer in our walk in booth probably 20-30 minutes total and it would be ready for the oven and powder coat.
When welding cast iron, after grinding your weld, hit it with a needle scaler and the repair almost disappears. Does a nice job of blending the surface. Also when detail grinding flash and excess cast off an engine block, the needle scaler does a great job of making everything blend in.
The needle scaler if used straight after the weld is laid, not only removes the slight, but can also relieve the stresses in the joint like a series of tiny hammer blows..
I remember using a large needle gun on a large lump of concrete one day. After many hours, lo and behold, there was a truck chassis under it all. (Was formerly a cement agitator truck). The scaler was surprisingly gentle on the wiring and airlines as they had some give in them. The old hard concrete just peeled off in layers.
I would've bought a 4” grinder with 36 grit sanding disks. These are what you've got though, so what I would've done doesn't matter. Sandblasters are great tools, good comparison video
Yep, those kind of blasters are for small jobs, for large jobs need a pressure pot blaster or something along those lines...i would have done the same with a few 36 grit wheels for the flats and blaster in the corners
wire cup / wire wheel as the first attack with the grinder, then if you're not happy with how quick and smooth the surface is, come back with the flappy wheel.
I used the needle scaler on a fire hydrant and it did a 97% perfect job getting into the lettering even. Have to hold it at a 90 degree angle to your work and you should adjust the recoil setting before starting. The sand blasring guy wanted over $400 I paid $97 harbor freight on the heavy duty model. Well worth it.
Just to echo what others have said, the needle scaler is used to remove heavy scaly rust. Just as you don’t use a hammer to drive screws, you don’t use a needle scaler for smooth powdery surface rust.
Make sure TO NOT USE REGULAR SAND! I have a business that uses a sand blaster every day. You have to use glass bead or other appropriate blasting media. If not you will get silicosis, a lung disease. The only way you can use regular sand is with a high quality professional respirator/breathing apparatus. Please do not try to save money and use inadequate equipment. Your health is more valuable. Anyway, sand blasting, especially when properly set up/tuned is amazing. You can buy different grits resulting in different results and finishes.
I mainly use a needle scaler for removing the slag from "MMA" (SMAW) arc weld beads. ALSO: You really should get an N99 particulate filter mask in addition to full eye protection for sand blasting. You don't want to get any more of that crap in your lungs than necessary.
So the needle gun will remove mass, but not provide a finish. Sandblasting makes for a true finish(after a wipe down of course) So for a project like this, the needle gun would be the paint stripper and the sand the finisher. That way you use less of the $$ media. One method is left out in this video. Considering the type of surface being prepared, a 90 degree angle grinder would make short work for little cost to prepare the surface. Considering how open it is, a large 7-9" grinder could be used. A wire cup first to remove the majority of everything, followed by a flap disc to prepare most of the surface. Return with the sand blast to get into the corners and other hard to reach edges.
As a professional welder, needle scalers are best for removing rust, paint and mill scale on smaller areas or straight lines for weld preparation. Sand blasters are way better for larger areas, paint prep etc. I absolutely love my scaler as I repair farm equipment now and then that is very rusty, and use thicker steel which usually has heavy mill scale that eats up grinding/sanding discs. As you also said, a scaler is LOUD good ear protection is a must lmao.
I've done both systems, Try putting a pressure regulator set at about 50 to 75 lbs using the needle scalar.Also you probably know to clear the suction hose on the sand blaster to shove the nozzle against the work piece. So glad to see you back, you have been missed.
For what I need, a blaster is the end finish I require. Even with the PITA factor on media clogs. I will spend time getting my blaster to flow better, and I think I will be happier. Thanks for putting this out there!
Try doing the sandblasting in an enclosed small shop. It makes a mess of everything. I use the needle scaler for big rust patches that I can then phosphate over and paint.
I think that application is where the needle scaler work fine. On an old frame like the one he was working on, the needles knock enough rust off, then a rust converter will take care of the rest. A good primer on top will be good enough, maybe not as good as the sandblaster, but it is an old frame, it isn't a classic car.
If you are sifting your own sand one thing that will help is to put the sand in the oven at 250 degrees for an hour. The drier the sand the better it flows
Years ago there was no problem with sand blasting as far as the environment goes but in today's time it is illegal in most areas if you cannot reclaim or contain the blasting media.
An up-side to the needle scaler is you can reliably use a shop vac with it. Just get an extra crevice tool and cut a semi-circle into the end and cup below or above the scaler and it should get most of it.
I utilize both tools. The needle scaler works very well for when you just need to knock off the old paint, and do not want to get sand into port holes or the inside. Nice demonstration!
As a young seaman in the Navy I earned plenty of experience with a needle gun chipping paint…right tool for the right job, they both have ups and downs.
Needle scalers aren’t designed for rust removal! They were designed for removing scale from castings and forgings as well as removing the flux from stick welding. They will remove heavy flaking rust, but you still need to remove all traced of rust if you don’t want it coming back under the new paint.
The needle scaler isn't for taking paint down to metal, but rather for removing big chunks of material to get to a workable surface. I use it to remove thick undercoat in car restorations, a job that the sand blaster wouldn't touch, then I use a sand blaster to quickly finish the parts off once the bulk of the material has been removed.
Not seen this mentioned, so, I found that with the sand blasting material it had to 1). Be dry. 2). At a level equal too or slightly above the level I was going to use the sand blaster at, with no dips or bellies in the feed tube. I did not find the needle gun at all effective on thin layers of paint or surface rust, but, knocking cement of old bricks I wanted to reuse it was amazing!
I've had a needle scaler for years I only really use it for chipping the slag off of welding after arc welding that's all I really use it for it does a great job with that
If you have a 3000+ pressure washer, you should try the hybrid pressure washer / sand blaster! Way better wet specially if thinner metal that can warp by heat of just media blasting. Use both needle gun for big scale to de bulk and then water blast. Also "GET PPE"!
Your problem with feed on the sand is moisture. Your compressor makes it and your sand loves to soak it up and stick together That is the problem that I had once I dried the air up it worked great
I bought a big bench top milling machine and converted it to CNC. The original finish had a thin layer of bondo covered with white paint. It was easy to chip and wasn't very durable. So in the conversion process, I disassembled everything and stripped it all down to bare castings. I used a cheap HF needle scaler and it made quick work of it. It took it down to clean iron. I removed over a gallon of old bondo and paint. I repainted it with some 2 part urethane paint and it is a lot better finish. About half way thru the process, my old compressor bit the dust and I couldn't get any rebuild parts for it anymore. So I had to buy a new compressor. I bought a Quincy QT-54 60 gallon and it supplied plenty of air for the air sucking scaler. There was a noticeable difference with the scaler using a better compressor. My old compressor was a 60 gallon oil-less type that was slow and noisy. Nice useful video. Beards give men the right to pee standing up.
I've tried gravity fed and regular sandblasters and had issues getting the media to shoot out be it sand, salt or soda. I think I gave up on dry blasting and want to try wet blasting!
The needle gun takes off thick rust scale that the sand blaster will not shift (working on a 45 degree angle with it is usually better than head on), the sand blaster leaves a nice finish for paint to key into though - depends what you are trying to move as to which is best for the job.
Railroads also use need scales a lot on large metal parts to remove rust scale. Sand blasters perform best with dry medium as it offers less likelihood of clumping up leading to clogs. Also, the speed of a sandblasted will depend on numerous factors, including nozzle diameter and available air volume, as well as the type of medium being used. I deliver large volumes of garnet to the naval yards in Virginia, which seems to be their preferred method of removing rust and paint. On the other hand, bare rust can be removed with something as simple as baking soda. Crushed glass is good and maintains cutting ability when sifted and reused as a medium. It all depends on using the best medium for the task.
🤔 never seen a needle scaler used for rust. The application I know is for removing hardened concrete from metals. It’s super good for that. They ARE however really hard on the material. They take more or less everything off of aluminum, they also produce a very distinctive texture 🧐 if you’re into that.
This is my current delema right now. Great video and thanks for the comparison. I’m about to restore/get running a ‘87 chev square body it has heavy rust flake on the frame so needle would be good but rest with the sand. 👍🇨🇦
If you are going to take it down to the frame, send it out to a blasting service. Don't waste your time with a tiny little blasting gun. A guy with the right commercial blasting setup can have a truck frame and a bunch of other stuff done in an hour. Did this with my '68 C10's frame.
My son in law is a research chemist, he gave me some phosphoric acid. Mixed 50-50 with water, painted on rust turns the rust into magnetite, magnetite cannot hold an oxygen molecule, so rust is cleared. I used this on my camper van, cured the small pieces of rust, just paint over.
Well thank you that was informative. I wish you would have shown what it takes from the needle gun to get the same finish as the sandblaster if using a needle gun for a longer amount of time would make any difference?
The rust you encountered was a fine surface rust as opposed to that thick flakey stuff (that you would get on ships with salt water as you mentioned). The finish you had started with, is where you would expect to end with a needle gun and then move on to finesse it with sand blasting. That said, an excellent test and considering most people would be encountering the rust you have there - a very valid one. Great vid Zack
You need both. Start if need be with the needle scaler for crusts of rust and inner corners, and the sandblaster for flat and relatively even surfaces and the finished surface before the primer. If there‘s a thick coat of rust and multiple layers of paint, the needle scaler will save you a hell of a lot of sand when you eventually blast and make the cleanup operation much less difficult.
I've ran both a dry ice blaster ($$$$) and a media blaster in a cabinet for a couple of years, and I'll take a media blaster any day. Once it's set up with the proper pressures, and media, it's versatile, cheap, and pretty consistent in the finished goods that it produces. Rust, oxides, corrosion, old tractor paint, it's the right tool for the job.
i usually get feed issues if i forget to drain the compressor of moisture. it does gather a lot of it over time, clogs the hose. also wondering if you need to dry your sand somehow if you just pick it up from the ground.
Most "blasters" have a concrete slab, just three walls and no roof. I used "big red" which is the pressure pot sandblaster specifically made to blast trailer frames, farm tractors, steel rims and other stuff. You need a 20 cfm 220v compressor and be dressed like a storm trooper. That trailer on a "rotary" would be done in under an hour. The slab allows you to sweep up the media and re-use it, plus no roof allows the small debris to "blow off."
How do these stack up to an angel grinder or die grinder with one of those aluminium oxide pads meant for stripping? Seems faster and easier, with noise being somewhere in between the sand blaster and needle scaler?
i use them in conjunction with each other, the needle gun for heavy scale and the sand blaster to tidy up the surface for etch prime and paint so both are good for the job, horses for courses
That's like buying a dump truck for drag racing and a Corvette to haul dirt. Also that is a bottom line scaler. Get a good one like Texas Pneumatic Tools to compare.
Adjust your air pressure to get the best suction on the sand hose. 80psi works best on mine. If you go too high on air pressure the suction is reduced due to back pressure at the nozzle & you get less sand. You need at least a 5 hp air compressor to keep up with it. Blasting with too low a pressure is a waste of time. The sand you use makes a difference too.
Every situation is different. Scaler, blaster, discs, chemicals; judgment and experience will tell you which will be fastest, least destructive, and most appropriate for what you are attempting to achieve.
I use the needle scaler on heavier corrosion, in preparation for a wire wheel or wire cup on an angle grinder. Before wire wheeling, i use wd40 and soak the object down the day before. It seems to help dig out stuck on rust. Any tight spots i use the siphon blaster with coal slag. I then wipe down and degrease. I'll follow up with with 80 grit on a 2 inch mini da. Wipe off again, then use Picklex 20 and a scuff pad. This will remove most remaining loose rust and stabilize the remaining stuck on rust. I'll finish with painting with Zero Rust paint, 2 or 3 coats. Thin it 10% lacquer thinner and spray with lvlp gun. The reason i do it this way, i don't have a large compressor to run a pressure pot blaster. It's yielded me excellent results.
The Navy uses both. Which one depends on the application. A buddy borrowed my 12 horse, 4,000 PSI pressure washer and used it with a sand pick up to prep his Cat for painting, before shipping it to gold mining site way up north. Previously, he rented the big, commercial compressors to do that kind of work. They allowed him to do the job, but it took a lot of sand and made for a small dust storm. After using mine (water and sand combination), he said he'd never go back to the other way. He said he did a quick rinse, cranked up the heat in his hut, dried the Cat over night, and was able to prime and start painting the next day. You still wanted to wear a respirator, because the high pressure did toss a lot of vapor into the air and a little sand.
I have pent many hundreds of hours doing both. That needle scaler is way underperforming. I use a Ingersoll Rand air hammer with the scaler attachment. I can achieve nearly identical results most of the time. Snadblast has its place but the scaler is best at thick flaky scaly rust
They are 2 different tools for 2 different purposes. Needle guns are great for cleaning welds up and the premier tool for cleaning flux core welds. A sandblaster is for stripping to bare. I love picturing someone trying to strip a trailer with a needle gun going “there must be a better way “ 😂
I work in a factory that build transmissions. I can tell you that just because products are built in the same factory that does not mean same quality. Some builds look exactly the same but seals or bearings will be larger. Or other small changes can change a product. That’s what the entire aftermarket industry is based on.
Needle scalers cannot get to the bottom of rusted pits but it does shift the big stuff. Grit blasting gets into the pits - if the grain size is small enough. Ideally use them both followed by a chemical rust stopper bird it’s primed.
Having spent some time with the needlegun (as we call them) restoring a WW2 combat vessel, it's best against heavily layers or flaking paint, and wasted metal. But at least you can see what you're doing with one. The sand blaster would have an advantage in tight spaces where you can't fit the needlegun. In either case, working overhead is the worst. A friend and coworker cobbed together a little 3-needlegun 'dolly' for easier deck scaling. Yeah; noise x 3.
Well thanks, I WAS going to buy a needle gun but you saved me from that. I always use a hood and ski goggles to keep the sand out AND made a dryer out of copper tubing and an ice bucket to cool the air (with dryer) to prevent clogging the sand in the gun. Don't forget to capture your media so you can reuse it. For what You do and me too, blaster is the way to go.
The needle gun is not as clean, but does provide a varied textured surface as a casting might display... the sand blasting can provide a finer texture and a depth of removal based on time and type of media used. Each has its pros and cons.
I used to refurbish in-ground hydraulic lifts and the needle scaler is really only meant to remove heavy encrustations . I would go over once to get off the heavy stuff then use a wire wheel on a heavy duty grinder to finish it up .
Flap disk on a grinder is how you can get most of the rust off in this case. The blaster is only good for the hard to reach places. P.S. Wear a respirator!
@@ESLinsider The flap disk is more aggressive than a wire wheel and will grind the metal. I use both. Use a knotted wire wheel or a knotted cup brush on an angle grinder.
I tried the flap disc recently and it works pretty good but the guard seems to get in the way. Seems like you get get a lot more done faster if the guard wasn't there but then it becomes a safety hazard I guess.
@@ESLinsider I run mine without a guard. Just be careful and wear some stick welding gloves...and a face shield. Metal in your eyes is not fun and it's happened more than once to me.
I worked the waterfront for several years. The scaler was used for heavy rust and made quick work of that. Sandblasters came afterwards and cleaned up the rest to get ready for paint.
Exactly.
Indeed, us the right tool for the right job. But that doesn't make nice fancy headlines does it?
Everyone read my mind.
Was gonna say: these are two tools for two different applications that sometimes overlap. Like a box wrench or a socket? IDK. Either way, having both is beneficial and neither is too expensive to not have around if you're restoring things.
@@jwm6314 This is what's wrong with youtube. You get people who don't know what they are doing either claiming to teach or they make comparisons on things they know nothing or very little about that results in extremely skewed wrong information. In the mean time you have the youtuber who is actually professional who doesn't get view or hits because all the nobody armatures dilute the search making the real experts harder to find.
Needle guns are used for scaling off very heavy and thick rust, and for that purpose they are way faster than a sand blaster.
Absolutely, clue is in the name - Needle scaler! lol
He was comparing apples and oranges
Yep, two different tools for two different jobs. BTW, I was in the navy, the reason we used scalers is because the salt water quickly causes metal scale. Surface rust we just painted over cause they added rust inhibitors in the paint.
As a NACE 2 with a painting background, yes indeed
Spot on
Two tools for different jobs. The needle scaler is to remove heavy 'scaling' rust. The sand blaster is the finisher to get down to bare metal.
i see the needle scaler wont do anything.. i straight forward to the sand blaster
@@jerseygamingtv3537 when the scale is 1/8 " thick you need the needle gun
Video starts at 4:00. Also for that project I would say a paint removal wheel would have been much faster than either of those. Especially if mounted on an angle grinder than a drill. You can remove in 2 seconds what took 2 minutes on the sand blaster. If you have lots of open space like this then use the paint stripper wheel. The other tools are mainly for internal detail work.
The moral of this story is that tools are designed for a specific purpose so find the best tool for the job you are doing and use it.
He's probably doing it for views. I totally agree with the grinder wheel method.
That costs soooooo much more and he may not have electricity/generator
@@Quinnjamin2020 he has an air compressor
Polycarbide wheel for the open areas, sand blaster in the corners🙂
A needle scaler is used more on rough scale! Ie rust that is big and flaky, its also very useful for stick or flux core welding to clean off slag
I was an “impact surface abrasion technician” for a number of years.
This test is not really correct as as others have said the needle gun is for heavy scaling.
For example. Steel of iron that has seen much salt water for decades or a stock trailer chassis that has taken thousands of beasts on their last journey to the slaughter house.
The layers of delaminating steel will just absorb the blast cleaning. Needle guns, lump hammers, cold chisels and even SDS drills with chisel attachments get the worst off. Then hit with an abrasive shot. Steel shot or copper slag.
That blaster though looks like it wouldn’t clean the skin off rice pudding to be honest though.
Still, good effort. Keep the videos coming.
"skin off a rice pudding" that's good, I like that. Can I use that? Jim
Others have mentioned the true use of the needle “scaler”. Another great use for the needle scaler is to knock scale off of welds, this also hammers the weld to cause the weld to relax and not pull the metal as much.
Absolutely. Out side of that, I just angle grind alot, being cautious of where the welds are.
This guys in the video is an idiot
Did you mean to equiax the grain structure by providing cold working to the weld area and HAZ thus reducing tension and compression. Just sayin'
Use the needle gun first to get most of the paint off, then use the sand blaster
thats the best bet, nail scaler to scale off big scales of paint and rust quickly and then blast with sand
Those are two different tools for two different jobs, you can't really compare them. If you had a decent blaster not a little hobby one you would find a world of difference too for that job. Mine feeds perfectly and holds a lot of sand so I can work much longer with out hassles.
yeah, the scaler is more for removing welding slag . cant immagine it being any good for rust like what he is dealing with... I'd use a 4" grinder and a wire cup for what he is doing.
And the laser, where is it in this test?
@@thomasstuart6861 now there is a rust killer I want to own! unfortunately, those things cost more than a shuttle launch used to.
yeah...I know what you mean...the kind that you need an air supplied bee keepers hood and gloves. For that frame , I would take a grinder and grind all the flat sections with an 80 grit disc...and leave the nooks and crannies to the sand blaster.
@@thomasstuart6861 cheap laser system is $50 000 for a 40watt system.
I used the scaler a lot while working tankers, yours just didn't sound like it was adjusted correctly.. Also they are better suited to removing heavy scale rust, then finish with sandblasting before finishing. I believe both tools are well suited to their roles, but those roles are a bit different.
Yep, used the needle guns on submarine bilges to chip off large deposits of rust. Then slathered it up with vactan (aka Naval Jelly).
i think its to do with the compressor not being able to have enough air to feed it. you need a stupidly high CFM to work a needle gun if it doesn't have that it won't work as well you can also tell the compressor isn't big enough because of the periodic stopping and starting.
@Rowan Brecknell yeah just did the calculations its roughly needed is 26 CFM with the needle gun and 10ft of hosing which is in the realms of 2 stage compressors. his is only a single pump probably why the needle gun isn't working because his compressor isn't big enough to run optimally.
@Rowan Brecknell if your looking for high CFM compressors for cheap go for the old army surplus compressors the ones with the scuba bottle tanks can produce that all day every day i picked mine up for $500 best bang for your buck.
@Rowan Brecknell the higher the CFM the higher the load needed hence you need more HP to work it
Use the needle scaler on tools and equipment that have leftover concrete on their surfaces. it rocks. sand blaster has no chance. make sure your air pressure is adjusted correctly on the scaler so it will be more effective.
The needle scaler has its place on heavy rust with layers or chunks of rust that are leaving holes when the chunks are chipped off. Much of the time, that metal can still be used, and because the chunk of rust is removed the metal can be coated with paint or similar product and it will not continue to rust in those areas.
The sandblaster has its place on surface rust but most of the time will not remove chunks of rust thus not stopping future rust under those chunks which will eventually fall off and leave rusty divots.
They both have their own advantage. Sometimes, depending on the metal, both are useful since many rusty surfaces have a combination of the two types of rust. In the application this person was working, he had only shallow rust and the sandblaster was the better tool.
The needle scaler is designed for removing mill scale and weld slag, that's what it does best. It's not intended for rust removal and (of course) it doesn't perform well at that task.
It is actually intended for removing rust as well. There are SSPC specifications for cleaning with a needle gun. You can't expect to get sp1 or sp2 quality no a blast profile that some coatings spec out, but, there is an appropriate place for it when removing rust as well as scale slag etc.
Navy vet. Plenty of needle gun experience. Also was lead PO of a sand blasting team in the yards during drydock. The Navy used needle gunning because it's cheap. Sand blasting with a real setup is easily the better option if you want it done fast and easier. Could do that whole trailer in our walk in booth probably 20-30 minutes total and it would be ready for the oven and powder coat.
When welding cast iron, after grinding your weld, hit it with a needle scaler and the repair almost disappears. Does a nice job of blending the surface. Also when detail grinding flash and excess cast off an engine block, the needle scaler does a great job of making everything blend in.
The needle scaler if used straight after the weld is laid, not only removes the slight, but can also relieve the stresses in the joint like a series of tiny hammer blows..
And reliving the stress of the weld so it doesn't crack
I remember using a large needle gun on a large lump of concrete one day. After many hours, lo and behold, there was a truck chassis under it all. (Was formerly a cement agitator truck). The scaler was surprisingly gentle on the wiring and airlines as they had some give in them. The old hard concrete just peeled off in layers.
Not a good comparison at all. That's like comparing a wrist watch to a wall clock. They both tell the time but for 2 different uses.
I would've bought a 4” grinder with 36 grit sanding disks. These are what you've got though, so what I would've done doesn't matter. Sandblasters are great tools, good comparison video
Yep, those kind of blasters are for small jobs, for large jobs need a pressure pot blaster or something along those lines...i would have done the same with a few 36 grit wheels for the flats and blaster in the corners
wire cup / wire wheel as the first attack with the grinder, then if you're not happy with how quick and smooth the surface is, come back with the flappy wheel.
I used the needle scaler on a fire hydrant and it did a 97% perfect job getting into the lettering even. Have to hold it at a 90 degree angle to your work and you should adjust the recoil setting before starting. The sand blasring guy wanted over $400 I paid $97 harbor freight on the heavy duty model. Well worth it.
Your not factoring in his labor insurance & having to deal with people who get it home and let it sit overnight and want it blasted again for free
Just to echo what others have said, the needle scaler is used to remove heavy scaly rust. Just as you don’t use a hammer to drive screws, you don’t use a needle scaler for smooth powdery surface rust.
Make sure TO NOT USE REGULAR SAND! I have a business that uses a sand blaster every day. You have to use glass bead or other appropriate blasting media. If not you will get silicosis, a lung disease. The only way you can use regular sand is with a high quality professional respirator/breathing apparatus. Please do not try to save money and use inadequate equipment. Your health is more valuable. Anyway, sand blasting, especially when properly set up/tuned is amazing. You can buy different grits resulting in different results and finishes.
I mainly use a needle scaler for removing the slag from "MMA" (SMAW) arc weld beads.
ALSO: You really should get an N99 particulate filter mask in addition to full eye protection for sand blasting. You don't want to get any more of that crap in your lungs than necessary.
The needle gun really shines on flaky rust scale.
I use the scaler for knocking off old undercoating on automobile parts,works great.
So the needle gun will remove mass, but not provide a finish.
Sandblasting makes for a true finish(after a wipe down of course)
So for a project like this, the needle gun would be the paint stripper and the sand the finisher. That way you use less of the $$ media.
One method is left out in this video. Considering the type of surface being prepared, a 90 degree angle grinder would make short work for little cost to prepare the surface. Considering how open it is, a large 7-9" grinder could be used. A wire cup first to remove the majority of everything, followed by a flap disc to prepare most of the surface. Return with the sand blast to get into the corners and other hard to reach edges.
As a professional welder, needle scalers are best for removing rust, paint and mill scale on smaller areas or straight lines for weld preparation. Sand blasters are way better for larger areas, paint prep etc. I absolutely love my scaler as I repair farm equipment now and then that is very rusty, and use thicker steel which usually has heavy mill scale that eats up grinding/sanding discs.
As you also said, a scaler is LOUD good ear protection is a must lmao.
Use the scaler first and finish with the blaster to clean it all up
Exactly what I was thinking.
Me too
That's the way to do it when the rust is thick.
This video taught me to keep buying Clean+Strip disc's for my angle grinder.
I've done both systems, Try putting a pressure regulator set at about 50 to 75 lbs using the needle scalar.Also you probably know to clear the suction hose on the sand blaster to shove the nozzle against the work piece. So glad to see you back, you have been missed.
For what I need, a blaster is the end finish I require. Even with the PITA factor on media clogs. I will spend time getting my blaster to flow better, and I think I will be happier. Thanks for putting this out there!
Try doing the sandblasting in an enclosed small shop. It makes a mess of everything. I use the needle scaler for big rust patches that I can then phosphate over and paint.
I think that application is where the needle scaler work fine. On an old frame like the one he was working on, the needles knock enough rust off, then a rust converter will take care of the rest. A good primer on top will be good enough, maybe not as good as the sandblaster, but it is an old frame, it isn't a classic car.
If you are sifting your own sand one thing that will help is to put the sand in the oven at 250 degrees for an hour. The drier the sand the better it flows
*You should Look Into a Pressure Washer Sandblasting attachment*
I find it's VERY Quick And BEST way to do it!!
I was going to say this also!!!
It likes to clog up easy though
Still required in many area's to at lest prevent the runoff from leaving your property, and definitely don't let it run into the storm drain.
Well those tools have two different jobs. If you were using them correctly you would see they both have their use.
I would have liked a mention of air requirements. I don't expect your average diyer has a large enough compressor for either.
One word: "Silicosis'
Thank you for the straight forward side by sides!! Really appreciate it
Years ago there was no problem with sand blasting as far as the environment goes but in today's time it is illegal in most areas if you cannot reclaim or contain the blasting media.
An up-side to the needle scaler is you can reliably use a shop vac with it. Just get an extra crevice tool and cut a semi-circle into the end and cup below or above the scaler and it should get most of it.
I utilize both tools. The needle scaler works very well for when you just need to knock off the old paint, and do not want to get sand into port holes or the inside. Nice demonstration!
As a young seaman in the Navy I earned plenty of experience with a needle gun chipping paint…right tool for the right job, they both have ups and downs.
Needle scalers aren’t designed for rust removal! They were designed for removing scale from castings and forgings as well as removing the flux from stick welding. They will remove heavy flaking rust, but you still need to remove all traced of rust if you don’t want it coming back under the new paint.
Nothing like trying to get some shut-eye while the Needle Scaler is busy in another ship compartment.
Brevity is the soul of wit. Thank you.
Thanks for doing the test.
The needle scaler isn't for taking paint down to metal, but rather for removing big chunks of material to get to a workable surface. I use it to remove thick undercoat in car restorations, a job that the sand blaster wouldn't touch, then I use a sand blaster to quickly finish the parts off once the bulk of the material has been removed.
Use the needle gun to remove bulk rust, paint, scale and then follow-up with the sand blaster.
Not seen this mentioned, so, I found that with the sand blasting material it had to 1). Be dry. 2). At a level equal too or slightly above the level I was going to use the sand blaster at, with no dips or bellies in the feed tube. I did not find the needle gun at all effective on thin layers of paint or surface rust, but, knocking cement of old bricks I wanted to reuse it was amazing!
I've had a needle scaler for years I only really use it for chipping the slag off of welding after arc welding that's all I really use it for it does a great job with that
If you have a 3000+ pressure washer, you should try the hybrid pressure washer / sand blaster! Way better wet specially if thinner metal that can warp by heat of just media blasting. Use both needle gun for big scale to de bulk and then water blast.
Also "GET PPE"!
Your problem with feed on the sand is moisture. Your compressor makes it and your sand loves to soak it up and stick together
That is the problem that I had once I dried the air up it worked great
Yup.
Bigger nozzle perhaps
Hey, like number 300, that's me! Glad you found your ear protectors.
Just reading the comments saved me ten minutes of my life!
Needle Scaler works real good on welding BB's and slag
I'm a Navy Vet, a bilge snipe. After forty years I still have those tingles up my spine!?
I used to work painting tankers. We used a needle scaler on the heavy stuff and then blasted the rest. It saved a ton of blast media.
I bought a big bench top milling machine and converted it to CNC. The original finish had a thin layer of bondo covered with white paint. It was easy to chip and wasn't very durable. So in the conversion process, I disassembled everything and stripped it all down to bare castings. I used a cheap HF needle scaler and it made quick work of it. It took it down to clean iron. I removed over a gallon of old bondo and paint. I repainted it with some 2 part urethane paint and it is a lot better finish. About half way thru the process, my old compressor bit the dust and I couldn't get any rebuild parts for it anymore. So I had to buy a new compressor. I bought a Quincy QT-54 60 gallon and it supplied plenty of air for the air sucking scaler. There was a noticeable difference with the scaler using a better compressor. My old compressor was a 60 gallon oil-less type that was slow and noisy. Nice useful video. Beards give men the right to pee standing up.
I've tried gravity fed and regular sandblasters and had issues getting the media to shoot out be it sand, salt or soda. I think I gave up on dry blasting and want to try wet blasting!
The needle gun takes off thick rust scale that the sand blaster will not shift (working on a 45 degree angle with it is usually better than head on), the sand blaster leaves a nice finish for paint to key into though - depends what you are trying to move as to which is best for the job.
Railroads also use need scales a lot on large metal parts to remove rust scale.
Sand blasters perform best with dry medium as it offers less likelihood of clumping up leading to clogs. Also, the speed of a sandblasted will depend on numerous factors, including nozzle diameter and available air volume, as well as the type of medium being used. I deliver large volumes of garnet to the naval yards in Virginia, which seems to be their preferred method of removing rust and paint. On the other hand, bare rust can be removed with something as simple as baking soda. Crushed glass is good and maintains cutting ability when sifted and reused as a medium. It all depends on using the best medium for the task.
Hmm... would this somehow be related to the bike project? Or are you doing something cool with that trailer frame?
I used the scaler on a old truck frame I found it the angle you hold the tool is a big factor
Not all scalers are created equal. That HF seems to lack compared to the Ingersoll Rand I use.
🤔 never seen a needle scaler used for rust. The application I know is for removing hardened concrete from metals. It’s super good for that. They ARE however really hard on the material. They take more or less everything off of aluminum, they also produce a very distinctive texture 🧐 if you’re into that.
I just had a Navy flashback using needle gun to remove paint on ships.
This is my current delema right now. Great video and thanks for the comparison. I’m about to restore/get running a ‘87 chev square body it has heavy rust flake on the frame so needle would be good but rest with the sand. 👍🇨🇦
If you are going to take it down to the frame, send it out to a blasting service. Don't waste your time with a tiny little blasting gun. A guy with the right commercial blasting setup can have a truck frame and a bunch of other stuff done in an hour. Did this with my '68 C10's frame.
My son in law is a research chemist, he gave me some phosphoric acid. Mixed 50-50 with water, painted on rust turns the rust into magnetite, magnetite cannot hold an oxygen molecule, so rust is cleared. I used this on my camper van, cured the small pieces of rust, just paint over.
Well thank you that was informative. I wish you would have shown what it takes from the needle gun to get the same finish as the sandblaster if using a needle gun for a longer amount of time would make any difference?
I Use the Needle Scaler on Old Stone Foundations to Remove Mortar.. it Works Great!
The rust you encountered was a fine surface rust as opposed to that thick flakey stuff (that you would get on ships with salt water as you mentioned). The finish you had started with, is where you would expect to end with a needle gun and then move on to finesse it with sand blasting. That said, an excellent test and considering most people would be encountering the rust you have there - a very valid one. Great vid Zack
You need both. Start if need be with the needle scaler for crusts of rust and inner corners, and the sandblaster for flat and relatively even surfaces and the finished surface before the primer. If there‘s a thick coat of rust and multiple layers of paint, the needle scaler will save you a hell of a lot of sand when you eventually blast and make the cleanup operation much less difficult.
Sand blaster= gonna need bigger compressor.
Needle scaler cleans welding slag and heavy rust best.
OK, so needler for heavy flakey chunky rust, sandblasting for lighter work. What do people think about rust removing gel?
I've ran both a dry ice blaster ($$$$) and a media blaster in a cabinet for a couple of years, and I'll take a media blaster any day. Once it's set up with the proper pressures, and media, it's versatile, cheap, and pretty consistent in the finished goods that it produces. Rust, oxides, corrosion, old tractor paint, it's the right tool for the job.
i usually get feed issues if i forget to drain the compressor of moisture. it does gather a lot of it over time, clogs the hose.
also wondering if you need to dry your sand somehow if you just pick it up from the ground.
Most "blasters" have a concrete slab, just three walls and no roof.
I used "big red" which is the pressure pot sandblaster specifically made to blast trailer frames, farm tractors, steel rims and other stuff.
You need a 20 cfm 220v compressor and be dressed like a storm trooper.
That trailer on a "rotary" would be done in under an hour.
The slab allows you to sweep up the media and re-use it, plus no roof allows the small debris to "blow off."
How do these stack up to an angel grinder or die grinder with one of those aluminium oxide pads meant for stripping? Seems faster and easier, with noise being somewhere in between the sand blaster and needle scaler?
i use them in conjunction with each other, the needle gun for heavy scale and the sand blaster to tidy up the surface for etch prime and paint
so both are good for the job, horses for courses
Nice ear protection, what do you fly?
That's like buying a dump truck for drag racing and a Corvette to haul dirt. Also that is a bottom line scaler. Get a good one like Texas Pneumatic Tools to compare.
Adjust your air pressure to get the best suction on the sand hose. 80psi works best on mine. If you go too high on air pressure the suction is reduced due to back pressure at the nozzle & you get less sand. You need at least a 5 hp air compressor to keep up with it. Blasting with too low a pressure is a waste of time. The sand you use makes a difference too.
I was a welder for years. Used needle scalers to remove welding slag. Perfect for that job.
How big was the air compressor and would it matter?
Every situation is different.
Scaler, blaster, discs, chemicals; judgment and experience will tell you which will be fastest, least destructive, and most appropriate for what you are attempting to achieve.
I use the needle scaler on heavier corrosion, in preparation for a wire wheel or wire cup on an angle grinder. Before wire wheeling, i use wd40 and soak the object down the day before. It seems to help dig out stuck on rust. Any tight spots i use the siphon blaster with coal slag. I then wipe down and degrease. I'll follow up with with 80 grit on a 2 inch mini da. Wipe off again, then use Picklex 20 and a scuff pad. This will remove most remaining loose rust and stabilize the remaining stuck on rust. I'll finish with painting with Zero Rust paint, 2 or 3 coats. Thin it 10% lacquer thinner and spray with lvlp gun.
The reason i do it this way, i don't have a large compressor to run a pressure pot blaster. It's yielded me excellent results.
Having used the needlegun on alot of paint of varing rust & water damage; if the paint is stuck then its doing well enough to stay there.
The Navy uses both. Which one depends on the application.
A buddy borrowed my 12 horse, 4,000 PSI pressure washer and used it with a sand pick up to prep his Cat for painting, before shipping it to gold mining site way up north.
Previously, he rented the big, commercial compressors to do that kind of work. They allowed him to do the job, but it took a lot of sand and made for a small dust storm.
After using mine (water and sand combination), he said he'd never go back to the other way. He said he did a quick rinse, cranked up the heat in his hut, dried the Cat over night, and was able to prime and start painting the next day.
You still wanted to wear a respirator, because the high pressure did toss a lot of vapor into the air and a little sand.
I have pent many hundreds of hours doing both.
That needle scaler is way underperforming.
I use a Ingersoll Rand air hammer with the scaler attachment. I can achieve nearly identical results most of the time. Snadblast has its place but the scaler is best at thick flaky scaly rust
You keep your facts and experience to yourself!
Scaler's and Scabler's work best removing concrete off of anything. Sandblaster has no chance. Correct air pressure is critical.
They are 2 different tools for 2 different purposes. Needle guns are great for cleaning welds up and the premier tool for cleaning flux core welds. A sandblaster is for stripping to bare. I love picturing someone trying to strip a trailer with a needle gun going “there must be a better way “ 😂
I work in a factory that build transmissions. I can tell you that just because products are built in the same factory that does not mean same quality. Some builds look exactly the same but seals or bearings will be larger. Or other small changes can change a product. That’s what the entire aftermarket industry is based on.
The industry I am from used them for de-slagging welds. It’s the standard in stick or inner shield for heavy industrial production, ship building etc.
At the shipyard we use scalers for large chunks of rust and for knocking slag off of welds before sandblast and paint. Saves on blasting media.
Needle scalers cannot get to the bottom of rusted pits but it does shift the big stuff. Grit blasting gets into the pits - if the grain size is small enough. Ideally use them both followed by a chemical rust stopper bird it’s primed.
Having spent some time with the needlegun (as we call them) restoring a WW2 combat vessel, it's best against heavily layers or flaking paint, and wasted metal. But at least you can see what you're doing with one. The sand blaster would have an advantage in tight spaces where you can't fit the needlegun. In either case, working overhead is the worst. A friend and coworker cobbed together a little 3-needlegun 'dolly' for easier deck scaling. Yeah; noise x 3.
We used to duct tape a needlegun to a broomstick. At least you were off your knees for the deck and off a ladder for the overhead.
Well thanks, I WAS going to buy a needle gun but you saved me from that. I always use a hood and ski goggles to keep the sand out AND made a dryer out of copper tubing and an ice bucket to cool the air (with dryer) to prevent clogging the sand in the gun. Don't forget to capture your media so you can reuse it. For what You do and me too, blaster is the way to go.
The needle gun is not as clean, but does provide a varied textured surface as a casting might display... the sand blasting can provide a finer texture and a depth of removal based on time and type of media used. Each has its pros and cons.
Well said
Thanks for posting, this videos definitely swayed me away from the needle gun that I was going to try out for rust removal.
Needle scaler is for heavy rust...I have both and they both have there purpose
On military ships, the needle gun is accompanied with a small grinder for the finish and rust
I used to refurbish in-ground hydraulic lifts and the needle scaler is really only meant to remove heavy encrustations . I would go over once to get off the heavy stuff then use a wire wheel on a heavy duty grinder to finish it up .
Flap disk on a grinder is how you can get most of the rust off in this case. The blaster is only good for the hard to reach places. P.S. Wear a respirator!
Difference between using a flap disk and wire wheel?
@@ESLinsider The flap disk is more aggressive than a wire wheel and will grind the metal. I use both. Use a knotted wire wheel or a knotted cup brush on an angle grinder.
I tried the flap disc recently and it works pretty good but the guard seems to get in the way. Seems like you get get a lot more done faster if the guard wasn't there but then it becomes a safety hazard I guess.
@@ESLinsider I run mine without a guard. Just be careful and wear some stick welding gloves...and a face shield. Metal in your eyes is not fun and it's happened more than once to me.
@@phillipvansickle4220 What do you use in the corners and tough to reach places?
Curious to know the compressor size used for this? Thanks
What compressor are you using? That’s the most important factor for the sandblaster.