The snowgrave route was added cause so many people said they wanted to kill berdly and toby was like "yeah sure" and made it absolutely horrific and terrifying
I really think whatever ending we get in Deltarune is going to be the same no matter what routes we unlock, the biggest difference is going to be the context in which we see the ending
I see it as, the ending cannot be changed. In both routes the dark fountain is sealed and the world is saved. So, by the end of the game the world will be (presumably) saved, it's just how the characters lives go on that will be different. Basically, like how if you did or didn't do certain sidequests in a game and thus either improved characters lives or left them in a not very good situation.
@@OriginalGameteer i doubt the lives would change too as this is a early chapter so yea for a while the routes will be different but they will probably merge in the same thing near the end
@@beezmanit2683 I hope Toby dosen’t pull a “and then Kris woke up, and found out that it was only a dream.” like that’s the worst way to end off a story
that's what it was like for the first day of deltarune ch2's release, really. i'll never forget hearing my friends and i all muttering amongst ourselves if the first playthrough of snowgrave uploaded to youtube was "actually real" and the horrors of finding the music from it in the files
if undertale existed and became popular in the pre-internet era, I'm sure there would be BILLIONS of playground rumors. with all of the secrets in UT and DR, there'd be no doubt that kids would make stuff up.
I think they speak the unused text in the game witch spamton says parts of And the person who says they threw it away is a different voice then the one who told you to make it I think gaster wanted to if s us a fresh body and someone forced us into Kris
I wouldn't say it *has* to, I think he saved it *just in case* he ever wanted to do something with it. (a smart practice that anyone should do when making anything, SAVE EVERYTHING!) Though it is possible it's guarenteed to have an importance to it.
@@marsgreekgod I've heard in the Japanese dialogue, it's even more obvious that someone else discards our choices and forces us to be Kris, and that their dialogue is written similarly to Chara's in Undertale's evil ending. I'm not sure how important the vessel can be though, considering the game allows you to start a new save from chapter 2 without creating a vessel, you don't even enter a name for the vessel if you start from chapter 2, although maybe in a later chapter we'll have to create a vessel if we didn't make one.
@@JonnySpec One of the most character defining features that every major character has is their font. The font of the person telling you to make a vessel shares the same number in the files as Entry 17 in Undertale So, more evidence to support the theory it's Gaster telling you to make a vessel
I think deltarune so far does a mighty fine balance between humor and storytelling. I like the characters & music as well. That’s no easy feat, since (on the outside) toby fox games can sometimes walk the fine line of almost sounding like pretentious soap-box pieces (depending on how someone describes them to you)
Deltarune pretty much tell's us nothing about the story, aside from a few vague clues given to us by Ralsei. Pretty much: A: Dark fountain bad B:Too many end world C: Some sort of titan species will destroy the world if they take form (which, by the way, they share that same eye pattern at the beginning of Chp 1.) Then again, I think THAT'S what makes Deltarune so interesting, Toby leaves a lot up to player's to figure out, exposing it a the right time. Though his games do kinda sound like soap box preaches, if you never played them, i agree.
@@luccandouglas4378 Yeah. Though when i mentioned "storytelling", i er, was more or less refering to the actual events of the game playing out as we go through it.
@@Lumberjack_king I'm not saying it's bad because it's Meta, but because of how Toby goes about it. Undertale for example, goes on and on about how you should be peaceful to the ones trying to kill you, but when you pick up arms to fight back against your aggressors, you're suddenly the bad guy whose unredeemable and needs to be stopped. I guess i'm just saying it feels a little hypocritical in my book.
I will never play that snowgrave route but MAN that contrast really makes the game and its story and the player involvement so much more deeper. I feel the game is really experimenting with player agency.
Some people are too attached to characters to intentionally manipulate and hurt them. Besides, all player's definition of fun is different. Some enjoy bullet hells with no morals, others enjoy casual, humerous games with good lessons. I'm on the casual side, but I don't judge those who are on the other.
@@buttercupkat Yeah I'm like a mix of those two. I do love the characters, but I'm also very curious about the other potential stuff hidden within, whether it be good, or bad.
Personally, while I don't have interest on playing non-pacifist routes in this game, the fact that they exist makes the pacifist route more valuable to me. It makes me feel better to get a "perfect ending" when I know there was a possibility of getting a really horrible one instead.
@@dankerbell yeah, in Deltarune you really have to go out of your way. In Undertale, all you need to do is do what you always do in RPGs when you beat it once or twice; grind until you are OP. and then... no one comes.
@@dankerbell "Possibility" as in, they exist. They are possible to achieve. There isn't only one possible route. I'm not implying that they would happen just on accident. If they could happen on accident, I wouldn't feel this way about getting a "perfect ending" because then it would be just like random chance.
Spamton looks deceptively perfect in this style. Also, if I remember correctly the first guy to discover Snowgrave did so because he was backtracking for an item... and then all THIS happened. What sort of precedents this one random player set to initiate Snowgrave, I have no idea, but it's hilarious that it was discovered like this.
1: Toby has not said there's only one ending since he began working on chapter 2. 2: The Steam page for chapters 1 & 2 says "... only 1 ending...?" 3: Deltarune was originally meant to be a fairly traditional action rpg, made to contextualize one ending, and probably had only one route. As Toby said, most games only have one route. 4: Undertale's concept was based on a simplified version of early Deltarune, but it had a lot of its own unique ideas. These ideas heavily influenced Deltarune. To give some examples, originally hometown was supposed to be all humans, the act/mercy mechanics didn't exist (and maybe even turn-based battles?,) the art style was different, and probably many more things. Okay, now that those things are established, here's why I think the snowgrave route was added. I don't think Toby intended to have any sort of 'weird route' until designing chapter 2. In chapter 1 the routes stay pretty much identical because enemies run away after battle, so nobody ever dies. This works, up until you put a character with ice magic in. Ice magic is traditionally used to freeze enemies, but if you freeze an enemy though, they aren't able to run away. I reckon this was probably an oversight that Toby didn't realize until it was time to actually implement it. At that point, he'd have to figure out what to do, when accidentally designing a system that allows you to kill enemies in a game where you're not supposed to be able to do that. He could've found some way to technically make them not die, but I think he realized the potential for a really interesting and creepy route to come out of this, so he made the oversight become a feature. That's a lot of speculation, of course, but it's consistent with everything Toby's said, and that style of designing is something that's very common in indie games (I even have some firsthand experience with that sort of thing myself.) In fact, shortly after beginning work on chapter 2 Toby made a very general comment about how it's in his design style to change his plans right when it comes time to implement it, so I wouldn't be too surprised if he was somewhat specifically thinking of the snowgrave route when he said that, especially because he was talking about the overall game structure right before that. I don't know if the snowgrave route will change the ending, or how much more of a 'weird route' exists in the future. I wouldn't put it past Toby to make a whole new ending for it (after all, he's no longer saying that there's only one ending) but I wouldn't be too surprised if it doesn't actually change all that much.
I like to think that either Toby wants to subvert the "one ending" by relating it to the "your choices don't matter" theme which has to a point been subverted, or to make an ending which is narratively constructed in a way that no matter what we do beforehand it's going to look the same - something very general, like the world ending to the Roaring or whatnot. Though I don't think the second option leaves as much room to creativity in the ending which supposedly came in a dream and made Toby obsessed with it for several years... So I'm inclined to believe in the first option a bit more. ...I guess there really could just be one ending in the style of Undertale Neutral though. Huh.
I remember seeing somewhere that the death animation that happens when you use snowgrave on a normal enemy was already present in Chapter 1, although unused, and we just hadn't found it before. I can't confirm it, but I'm pretty sure it's true. I also think it's unlikely that the Snowgrave Route originated just because of an oversight on how ice magic works. He could've very well just made enemies still run away if you kill them with Iceshock (Berdly still survives if you use Iceshock on him instead of Snowgrave, after all), or just scrap that ability and come up with another one (maybe some sort of Ice Barrier that can protect you from enemy attacks).
I’d say the Genocide route in Undertale has to be searched for as well. You have to stay and actively search for monsters to kill, so to me the neutral route would be more fitting in that aspect. Both fit.
to be fair, the kinda payers who farma ton would do that, that kind of players is also the kind of player who generally play turn-based rpgs, especially retro ones.
I kind of have a theory, there are allot of hints in the game that your path is pre-determined, from the first chapter literally telling you that your choices don't matter to Spamton going off about our strings, so maybe we think we're forging our own path with our decisions, but maybe in the background The Knight has some grand scheme, and regardless of what choices we make along the way the ending laid out for us will be the same, unless we get sneaky and go against the grain. If you do the snowgrave route tons of things happen out of order, which is the same as it was back in undertale with the genocide route, but when you go to the hospital afterward, the bead track that normally reads "The beads march grimly along their set path" instead says a blue bead has been torn off, which makes me think doing the snowrave route has altered the story in a way that wasn't even meant to happen, and even if it's a one off thing, killing Berdly could create a butterfly effect that leads to an entirely different ending. That might not be the only alternate ending though, when you beat Spamton NEO he tells you that with strength like yours you might one day be able to break your own strings, so maybe beating all of the secret bosses and collecting all the shadow crystals could lead to another ending where you become so powerful you're able to alter the course of fate and make the story end in the best way possible
@@elyonsilvarath6854 I believe that the Snowgrave ending will be the fun gang kicking your ass. If by the power of friendship they can beat every bad guy, how is the player any different ?
I almost went into a sort of sadness/disappointment when i saw that you'd have to kill berdly to progress the snowgrave route. I promptly ended it there. I can't just kill berdly.
The ending might be the same I feel with regards to the characters rejecting the player’s agency or attempt to control the them. But the effect that the player has on the world will be different I think. I also think that the game telling you that your choices don’t matter could just be a lie to really bring different narrative to the game
I think the 'Your choices don't matter' phrase applies to Kris, Susie and Ralsie, but it doesn't apply to the player or someone like Noelle as depicted in the snowgrave route
@@bradDark6941 but her choices are made once, they are static and unchanging, if such a "choice" is placed inside an eternal loop, is it really a decision anymore?
In my opinion: I think Toby fox said “Your choice doesn’t matter” so many times because that’s the story plot, THEIR choice doesn’t matter because you’re in control of it, it’s been revolving around the concept of your choice never mattering because someone is in control of it. Like kristopher and the player for example, their choice only matters because they can take ourselves out for a limited time. And you take control of noelle. I think the ending might be that kris is gonna make YOUR choices not matter anymore. Anyways welcome to my TEDdy bear talk cya.
I've seen a theory that Noelle was able to make an actual difference because she was not apart of the prophecy. Kris, Susie, and Ralsei all have their paths written, an ending for them all, but Noelle is just an outsider. She has freedom, and Kris takes advantage of that.
I feel this is one of those situations where the ending for the PLAYER (and maybe Kris, by extension, given the whole possession thing) will be the same, but the path you take to get there is wildly different, as well as who you get to share the ending with. As a way of saying, "Every path you take leads here, but at the very least, you have your friends." Or perhaps, "Your path is the same regardless, but the paths your friends take will change."
@@insectlover602 It's a matter of perspective. Personally I would sooner think you're soulless than this guy is oversensitive. Admittedly, I wouldn't exactly call it horror, but it does have psychological horror elements to it, and through guilt-tripping the player at every point of the route it really tries to emphasize that this route is just wrong.
@@abcdef-ms9mb Well personally I agree with both people. It was quite fun to go through and see what changed, but it very clearly tried to show you that what you were doing was wrong. Personally I don't get the whole "I'm not doing snowgwave it's too scawwy, I'm not a monstwer!!! 😣😣😣😣😣😣😣😣" type argument some people seem to have, as I just found it interesting and didn't really feel guilty for doing it at all, but I still realize that's likely not what was intended by the developers, and I wouldn't go as far as to call someone oversensitive over it (Though again it's what it looks like from my perspective). Nor would I call myself soulless for not feeling bad for manipulating and killing virtual characters. Both sides have an argument, but at the end of the day, it's just a game, and I don't think taking it that seriously either way is worth it.
I personally feel its still the opposite for undertale, the Genocide route is something that in every way discourages you from continuing. It's lifeless, boring, grindy and doesn't hold any challenge except for Undyne and Sans. The point about not following RPG instincts still stands though, since it'll most likely just get you to the Neutral ending as you should at first.
not necessarily,. i think the actual reason it's "opposite" is that in that game, the monster is the player/mc, but in here you make someone else the monster... while probably being one yourself. it's even worse in a way.
Yeah, I prefer the pacifist route in both Undertale and Deltarune. I watched a summary of someone doing the Snowgrave route and it was pretty depressing to watch Noelle be something that she's not, but is forced to become all because the player has control.
i acually prefer neutral and genocide in undertale, whereas in deltarune... i'm conflicted. i like standard over snowgrave, but... for all we know, it may not be a "route" in the common way we think of them, tyhe game definitely changes when we do it, but when you think about it, we don't actually know what happened to berdly, and as much as noelle might be creeped out by kris at the end of it, she's still... sane? to an extent. so the ending could still very much be the same, but what leads to it... who knows. as for the depressive part: i persoanlly think that kind of story if done properly can give a lot more meaning and a much deeper story than heartmelting sweetness 'n stuff, and toby seeems to be on the right path with deltarune to give exactly that. as the video said: "if someone is too determined and their will too firm, they could end up impacting the future of of other people, of the entire world by themselves, and who knows if that's a good or bad thing..." i genuinely don't think i've ever seen this lesson be told from the player's perspective in any game i played, and yet it is possibly the most important lesson i can think of about living with other people in a world.
I think that’s why I love snowgrave so much, because unlike Undertale you see the mental break and the trauma that the weird route causes and it’s so cool
I think it will go like this. If you do the snowgrave / genocide routes of all chapters apart from chapter 1, a terrifying corrupted team that you made yourself will take down the titans from the roaring, since the roaring will MOST LIKELY happen. same if you do the normal route, but the team won't be corrupted.
Not gonna lie, playing the Snowgrave route felt *worse* for me than *the whole Genocide route* in Undertale; it's one thing to do a terrible thing yourself, but that feeling is so much worse when you force someone else to become something they don't want to be...yikes. Gave me some serious Dark Side KOTOR I vibes, when you can force Zaalbar to murder Mission....friggin yikes
You actually see an interaction of the behavior, while the character you play as is muted in Undertale. That's why it holds more meaning over a silent character.
I hope we get to hear, firsthand, Toby's fever dream vision of an ending to a game, so that if it doesn't come out right in the ending to Deltarune, we can see what crazy idea dragged Toby on a probably decade-long adventure making a game. I HAVE to know what that ending is, man. Exactly in the words of Mr. Toby Fox.
Personally i think that the ending(s) are gonna be like undertale's neutral endings, the angel's heaven will be banished, the dark worlds will be safe, the knight, whoever they are will be defeated, no matter what happens to everyone, in the end. *Your choices dont matter.*
I like that Snowgrave is a thing, there's something so fascinatingly dark about it... but dang, I have never felt more guilty about actions in a video game.
So you wouldn't manipulate a deer to do your bidding and kill all the darkners, obsessively stalk her and terrify her by reading her mind, and kill the friend she worked with? Nonsense! Your choices won't matter in the end.
I think why Toby made the game this way is to show us, the player, that no matter what we do the ending will remain with us closing the fountain. Doesn't matter if we kill or spare everybody, one way or another that fountain is GOING to close.
1:39 Undertale wouldn't have gotten as popular as it did if Toby Fox hadn't included Sans' and Flowey's fourth wall breaking, which only stemmed from his confidence. He couldn't know if it was perceived as good; but he had to do it. In the end it paid off, so I think we all know the lesson he taught us... *✨STAY DETERMINED!✨*
Thank you, you really brought to mind the fact that Undertale makes you work hard to do the pacifist route, and Deltarune makes you work hard to do the genocide route. In Undertale mindless killing is a default, and in Deltarune sparing is the default. Definitely good food for thought. This will help me with my theorizing, lol.
I personally think the snowgrave route exists for 1 reason and 1 reason only: to expand on the clear theme of freedom so far. Think about it, both of the secret bosses have been about freedom. Jevil has accepted that he’s imprisoned and thinks he’s the only true free one, and spamton yearns for his freedom, greater than anything else. And while all of this is going on… Kris wants freedom more than anyone. They’re constantly being controlled by the player being forced to do things they don’t want to do. Like for example, after you beat spamton, Kris seems to be angry about the whole thing. Ralsei and Susie interpret this as Kris just having strong feelings about spamton, but I believe it’s because Kris never wanted to fight spamton to behind with. Kris is always yearning for freedom and that makes it all the more painful when he is forced to manipulate his childhood best friend into becoming a monster. And we know it’s not Kris saying to do this things as Noelle says “Kris the voice isn’t coming from you anymore.” Some people believe this means it’s finally getting to noelle and she’s going crazy, but I believe it’s supposed to represent the player telling Noelle to do these things and not Kris. TL;DR, snowgrave exists to expand upon the theme of freedom, and show Kris’ lack of freedom.
I think it's gonna be like theres no "pacifist" or "genocide" route. its gonna be like the neutral ending- the end point for kris is gonna be the same, but its gonna be different for the characters around them.
Honestly I think Toby told the truth when he said there would only be one ending. A theory I've seen in comment sections which I personally agree with is that the big picture is the same overall but there there are variations. For example with Snowgrave the ending is the same with variations as well. The big picture is that the cyber world is closed, Kris and Susie return to the real world and Noelle is saved. The variations are that most of the cyberworld is dead (Nubert stayed behind so I guess he dies), Berdly is dead and Spamton has some good intentions when fighting you.
I mean one way that the ending is the same no matter what is if everyone dies in the end anyways, yeah you might kill berdly in ch2 snowgrave rout, but if the end of both pacifist and genocide route is a world ending event where everyone dies it dosnt matter if people are killed off early cause they would be dead anyways.
I still reckon Deltarune will have just one singular ending but I believe it is the story along the way that will change instead. And depending on which route you may take, however many there may be, the context and messages of that single ending may change drastically. I kind of see this solution as the only way that this game can still continue the way it is right now and still not have the need to branch out into multiple endings. Such a Toby move honestly.
Let's take the example that the ending would be Kris getting rid of the player. This happens no matter what you've done. Now if you spared everyone and went the good routes it'll maybe be a Nice farewell. If you do the bad routes tho Kris is forcefully gonna get you out of them, leaving the player in front of the screen with an empty feeling that after all they weren't the friend of all these characters after all
I my question is Who would Meet noelle Go back Use iceshock on the previous monster Go back even more and use iceshock on every enemy you see Go to the guy with the store And SPAM GET IT AND SPAM PROCEED EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE And go to the dumpster and get the snowgrave ring and use it on BERDLY WHO TF DISCOVERD SNOWGRAVE/WIERD/ALTERNATIVE ROUTE
See, the biggest hurdle when trying to theorize on The Small White Dog's games is that he is exceptionally meta-aware. "He knows that we know that he knows that we know that etc."
Maybe Snowgrave only affects people who won't be in the ending? Maybe Noelle and Birdly won't even be there for whatever Toby had planned in the ending, and he just threw together a fun little bit of psychological torture for his genocide buddies. Or the ending works like the rest have so far, there's just variations where some people don't show up to group together to defeat the big bad guy, if you don't meet certain conditions. Like the recruitment in chapter 2, if you don't spare and recruit everyone, they won't all show up to build the robot. Only some will. Or if you beat up monsters in chapter 1, they won't defend you, but will be against you. They don't change anything, it's still the same, but you just get to the end differently.
so in the first chapter we make susie aware that violence isnt the only option and in the snowgrave of chapter 2 we made noelle aware that she can be more confident even if that means killing berdly, it makes noelle more confident in herself in the real world as well, just like how susie actually becomes our friend in chapter 1
I think the ending is going to be the same as a way of punishing people chasing after a darker ending. "Revel in all the atrocities you have commited, for it has been all futile, and now look at the outcome, but an empty kind of happiness"
Something I think will happen that’ll make us feel even WORSE for the Weird Route, is there won’t be repercussions, nobody is really gonna call us out, no hero is gonna try and stop us, no karma, just a hard and quick path, where YOU are the one who has to stop it, nobody left to blame
Imagine Toby's characters doing a Borderlands crossover cosplay! It's too perfect! Kris = Roland/Axton main. Susie = Brick/Krieg main. Ralsei/Noelle = Siren mains. Queen = Aurelia main. Tasque Manager = Nisha main. Berdly = Mordecai (which is funny for at least two reasons). *Note:* Yeah, I know Toby thinks FPS games are B0ring. Just think of it as a motif. 3:47 Speaking of which, there's a "Love and Peace" Trigun reference (spoken by Royal Guard 01) toward the end of the "True VASHifist" route. Truth be told, though (if we're talking about real-world philosophy), I think Undyne and Wolfwood have the best and most practical ideals. But it's still important to maintain a sense of idealism. So it's really balance that's the issue. Finding the right balance between Vash's idealism and Wolfwood's realism. Idealism without realism and you get nothing done. Realism without idealism and you have no grand vision. 4:05 In pragmatic terms, you have to assess what's actually going on. For example, if you realize that you're the interloper in their world, and if you have a civilized mentality (typically but not always indicative of a Lawful alignment in D&D terms), then you'll be less likely to act like a marauder. 4:18 [[insert reference to Nietzsche's "fight monsters, become a monster" quote]]
I think I know why The Snowgrave Route exist, cause Toby Fox knew you couldn't do a genocide route in the first game. He doesn't want everyone to die in it, like Undertale. He doesn't like the Genocide Route.
The overarching story of Deltarune seems to be elaborating on the meta aspects of Undertale; but instead of focusing on the player vs the game, its the player vs the playable character. Kris is a slave to the player's will. They don't have a choice. They can't choose to do what they want, they have to follow the whims of the player - no matter how good or evil those whims may be. Chapter 1 establishes normalcy. Its restrictive and sets the stage. There's a strong emphasis on prophecy and fate, which makes sense; it is a game after all. Chapter 2 plays fairly similarly, until you are given an avenue to subvert that. The Snowgrave Route isn't immediately apparent, it really is an "oh I can do that?? Let's see what happens if I do." type of route. There is virtually no reason to undergo it other than curiosity. It serves to reveal that there are cracks in the set nature of Deltarune - that the fate of the story isn't as set in stone as you may think. Regardless of route, Spamton really pushes this overarching narrative perfectly. A dodgy salesman within a dumpster in a dingy alleyway offering a blatant scam? Anyone in their right mind would flee on sight. Kris would flee on sight. But we don't let them. No, instead, we force them to accept the dodgy deal - and almost get them killed in the end because of it. Kris knows they were lucky this time, but that luck will run dry eventually. They need to get out. They need to regain control. I predict future chapters will explore this inner conflict more thoroughly. The routes will become more apparent, and diverge more substantially thanks to characters like Spamton that seemingly know that they are in a game. The Mike that Spamton refers to, likely the source of his own meta-knowledge, will likely play a role in Chapter 3 - more substantial than a secret boss or relatively obscure side character. The end results may be the same, but the journey will differ tremendously. There isn't much difference between Jevil, Spamton and Kris - except that Kris is likely strong enough to cut his own strings.
One thing I’ve always wondered is if berdly will be further in the game. He’s a big character. Chapter 1 was really saying your choices don’t matter, but chapter 2 is like “Alright how would you like this important character? Chicken or frozen?”
The broad strokes of the ending are prob gonna be the same with only minor differences depending on small things you do throughout the game All the secret bosses and side routes are mostly to give better context to the characters and their motivations that wouldn't be apparent if everything goes according to plan And the theme of the secret bosses and side paths is Freedom, deliberately going as far out of your way as the game will allow to forge your own path while the universe itself still has you chained to the plot regardless
I’ll say this: he’s tricking us about EVERYTHING!!!! Why bring all of the characters(and monster species) from undertale to deltarune and say “it’s not connected”. ITS OBVIOUSLY CONNECTED AND I THINK THERES GONNA BE MORE THAN 1 ENDING!!!
I was thinking could still have the same ending as all the choices end up resulting in the same ultimate ending. As for what happens in-between can either be strict in terms of events, alternative paths are dismissed in some way, or having wiggle room but the ending is not able to be avoided or bypassed.
I think the snowgrave spell itself is just us, the player saying "kill" without any instructions or knowledge of how it would work, or how it's even said.
Yeah… no. In Undertale Genocide, you kill everyone. Everyone. You kill people with families, people who never did anything wrong to you, and people who just wanted to be friends. Im not saying SnowGrave is good, but I think dispute the manipulation and murder of a beloved friend, you kill much more friends in genocide.
@@cobblerox9444 The point is that you aren't. When starting any new save in UT, they are not your friends, and by doing Genocide, they never become your friends either, while in DR, both Noelle (Who is completely broken down at the end of Ch2) and Berdly (Who was killed) were Kris' friends before Ch1, so you are always going to kill your friend and break your other friend, no matter what you do in Ch1, because unlike in Undertale, where you have to befriend the cast first, there is nobody to befriend here that isn't your friend when you restart, they already are befriended.
The fact that the Snowgrave route is optional makes doing the Snowgrave route hurt so much more. You could have just as easily done the normal route and moved on with your life but no you chose to do the Snowgrave route which makes you feel bad even more. And yes I know the same could be said about Undertale's Genocide route.
Its weird since toby said there would only be one ending maybe at the end the different routes merge back together and theres still only one ending or that one ending has multiple. Variations
I don’t think Toby was lying about the game having one ending. I believe it’s possible you’ll just be punished for doing so, like being locked or hindered from the ending of the game, maybe making you redo it all. It’d be a good punishment tbh.
i believe he added the snowgrave route knowing that players would have searched regardless. in deltarune, our choices won't affect the ending, just the journey we take towards it. this is such a jarring change from undertale, that most people want to do anything they can in hopes of obtaining the same level of control they had back in undertale, where your actions could affect your ending in large and small ways. the snowgrave is a terrifying reflection of the concept that our choices don't matter, but the choices of those around us do matter. noelle's actions mattered by the end in whether we'd have her as an ally or not in the end, but will that affect the end itself? no.
Honestly if Toby goes through with the Snowgrove playthrough for the rest of the 5 chapters, it could be 1 or the darkest playthrough in a video game. Hell just in 1 chapter they made Snowgrove almost darker than the Genocide run of Undertale. Because at least in that run, the players is already corrupt at the beginning, but in this you are literally corrupting a pure innocent soul to kill, and then make her kill her friend. I really hope Toby continues on the Snowgrove path for the rest of the chapters, even if every final boss is incredibly hard, I would definitely take it
I think it's more likely that if Deltarune has an equivalent to Undertale's Pacifist ending, it'll be the result of getting all recruits and defeating all the secret bosses to get the shadow crystals. In Undertale, most of the plot is the same in both the Pacifist route and the Neutral route, while the Murder route changes the plot drastically. Maybe Deltarune is headed the same way? Both games have a character near the start of the game who advises you to show mercy to enemies, Toriel in Undertale, and Ralsei in Deltarune.
In many respects. Toby Fox is like the Robert Rodriguez of video games. They both take what little they have and make something big, creative, and cool using clever tactics and doing most of the work themselves.
The snowgrave route was added cause so many people said they wanted to kill berdly and toby was like "yeah sure" and made it absolutely horrific and terrifying
Maybe that's what it is: Toby providing fanservice in a monkey's-paw manner.
"Here's what you asked for. Are you sorry?"
@@EvdogMusic Oh man, oh man oh man oh man, what is Toby gonna do to Asgore then?
@@EvdogMusic
"Are you sorry?"
No.
Unpopular opinion: berdly didn't deserve it
@@ziggymoondust2281 divorce 2 electric boogaloo
I really think whatever ending we get in Deltarune is going to be the same no matter what routes we unlock, the biggest difference is going to be the context in which we see the ending
I see it as, the ending cannot be changed. In both routes the dark fountain is sealed and the world is saved. So, by the end of the game the world will be (presumably) saved, it's just how the characters lives go on that will be different. Basically, like how if you did or didn't do certain sidequests in a game and thus either improved characters lives or left them in a not very good situation.
I dont think toby is going for a teltale way.
@@OriginalGameteer i doubt the lives would change too as this is a early chapter so yea for a while the routes will be different but they will probably merge in the same thing near the end
@@beezmanit2683 I hope Toby dosen’t pull a “and then Kris woke up, and found out that it was only a dream.” like that’s the worst way to end off a story
@@bonegem2989 nah Toby ain't that bad bad of a story writer
Imagine deltarune was an SNES game and there was no internet to talk about snowgrave leading to it being a good old playground myth.
that's what it was like for the first day of deltarune ch2's release, really. i'll never forget hearing my friends and i all muttering amongst ourselves if the first playthrough of snowgrave uploaded to youtube was "actually real" and the horrors of finding the music from it in the files
@@Tendo641 I never even knew it existed day 1, lol but after about 3 days I knew because everyone began talking about it.
That's a crazy thought.
Lol imagine a world where undertale never blew and it stayed a unknown gem. Its a intresting thought
if undertale existed and became popular in the pre-internet era, I'm sure there would be BILLIONS of playground rumors. with all of the secrets in UT and DR, there'd be no doubt that kids would make stuff up.
The game's save file actually saves every detail of the vessel you create in chapter 1, that HAS to have some importance.
Toby is an epic troll.
I think they speak the unused text in the game witch spamton says parts of
And the person who says they threw it away is a different voice then the one who told you to make it
I think gaster wanted to if s us a fresh body and someone forced us into Kris
@@marsgreekgod yea, nice theory I kinda agree that's possible
I wouldn't say it *has* to, I think he saved it *just in case* he ever wanted to do something with it. (a smart practice that anyone should do when making anything, SAVE EVERYTHING!)
Though it is possible it's guarenteed to have an importance to it.
@@marsgreekgod I've heard in the Japanese dialogue, it's even more obvious that someone else discards our choices and forces us to be Kris, and that their dialogue is written similarly to Chara's in Undertale's evil ending.
I'm not sure how important the vessel can be though, considering the game allows you to start a new save from chapter 2 without creating a vessel, you don't even enter a name for the vessel if you start from chapter 2, although maybe in a later chapter we'll have to create a vessel if we didn't make one.
@@JonnySpec One of the most character defining features that every major character has is their font. The font of the person telling you to make a vessel shares the same number in the files as Entry 17 in Undertale
So, more evidence to support the theory it's Gaster telling you to make a vessel
I think deltarune so far does a mighty fine balance between humor and storytelling. I like the characters & music as well.
That’s no easy feat, since (on the outside) toby fox games can sometimes walk the fine line of almost sounding like pretentious soap-box pieces (depending on how someone describes them to you)
Very true
Deltarune pretty much tell's us nothing about the story, aside from a few vague clues given to us by Ralsei. Pretty much: A: Dark fountain bad B:Too many end world C: Some sort of titan species will destroy the world if they take form (which, by the way, they share that same eye pattern at the beginning of Chp 1.)
Then again, I think THAT'S what makes Deltarune so interesting, Toby leaves a lot up to player's to figure out, exposing it a the right time. Though his games do kinda sound like soap box preaches, if you never played them, i agree.
@@luccandouglas4378 Yeah.
Though when i mentioned "storytelling", i er, was more or less refering to the actual events of the game playing out as we go through it.
Wait what why would they sound pretentious there games that are meta everyone loves those
@@Lumberjack_king I'm not saying it's bad because it's Meta, but because of how Toby goes about it. Undertale for example, goes on and on about how you should be peaceful to the ones trying to kill you, but when you pick up arms to fight back against your aggressors, you're suddenly the bad guy whose unredeemable and needs to be stopped.
I guess i'm just saying it feels a little hypocritical in my book.
I will never play that snowgrave route but MAN that contrast really makes the game and its story and the player involvement so much more deeper. I feel the game is really experimenting with player agency.
why? theres literally no reason to NOT play it,its fun.
@@venade9997 exactly lol
You’re missing out on half the game
Some people are too attached to characters to intentionally manipulate and hurt them. Besides, all player's definition of fun is different. Some enjoy bullet hells with no morals, others enjoy casual, humerous games with good lessons. I'm on the casual side, but I don't judge those who are on the other.
@@buttercupkat Yeah I'm like a mix of those two. I do love the characters, but I'm also very curious about the other potential stuff hidden within, whether it be good, or bad.
Personally, while I don't have interest on playing non-pacifist routes in this game, the fact that they exist makes the pacifist route more valuable to me. It makes me feel better to get a "perfect ending" when I know there was a possibility of getting a really horrible one instead.
This. I’ve never really seen anyone talk about this before. Sums up what I feel almost perfectly.
i wouldn't say possibility when you have to try to get them
@@dankerbell yeah, in Deltarune you really have to go out of your way. In Undertale, all you need to do is do what you always do in RPGs when you beat it once or twice; grind until you are OP. and then... no one comes.
@@dankerbell "Possibility" as in, they exist. They are possible to achieve. There isn't only one possible route. I'm not implying that they would happen just on accident. If they could happen on accident, I wouldn't feel this way about getting a "perfect ending" because then it would be just like random chance.
@le Zanji🇷🇺 yeah
Spamton looks deceptively perfect in this style.
Also, if I remember correctly the first guy to discover Snowgrave did so because he was backtracking for an item... and then all THIS happened.
What sort of precedents this one random player set to initiate Snowgrave, I have no idea, but it's hilarious that it was discovered like this.
probably was testing regardless a genocide run and simply ended up backtracking by mistake?
v['-']v
From what I heard, it was also discovered because people were datamining the game (as you do) and discovered stuff about a Weird Route.
I wonder what Iceshock does?
@@T_Dude damn it dataminers!
1: Toby has not said there's only one ending since he began working on chapter 2.
2: The Steam page for chapters 1 & 2 says "... only 1 ending...?"
3: Deltarune was originally meant to be a fairly traditional action rpg, made to contextualize one ending, and probably had only one route. As Toby said, most games only have one route.
4: Undertale's concept was based on a simplified version of early Deltarune, but it had a lot of its own unique ideas. These ideas heavily influenced Deltarune. To give some examples, originally hometown was supposed to be all humans, the act/mercy mechanics didn't exist (and maybe even turn-based battles?,) the art style was different, and probably many more things.
Okay, now that those things are established, here's why I think the snowgrave route was added.
I don't think Toby intended to have any sort of 'weird route' until designing chapter 2. In chapter 1 the routes stay pretty much identical because enemies run away after battle, so nobody ever dies. This works, up until you put a character with ice magic in. Ice magic is traditionally used to freeze enemies, but if you freeze an enemy though, they aren't able to run away. I reckon this was probably an oversight that Toby didn't realize until it was time to actually implement it. At that point, he'd have to figure out what to do, when accidentally designing a system that allows you to kill enemies in a game where you're not supposed to be able to do that. He could've found some way to technically make them not die, but I think he realized the potential for a really interesting and creepy route to come out of this, so he made the oversight become a feature.
That's a lot of speculation, of course, but it's consistent with everything Toby's said, and that style of designing is something that's very common in indie games (I even have some firsthand experience with that sort of thing myself.) In fact, shortly after beginning work on chapter 2 Toby made a very general comment about how it's in his design style to change his plans right when it comes time to implement it, so I wouldn't be too surprised if he was somewhat specifically thinking of the snowgrave route when he said that, especially because he was talking about the overall game structure right before that.
I don't know if the snowgrave route will change the ending, or how much more of a 'weird route' exists in the future. I wouldn't put it past Toby to make a whole new ending for it (after all, he's no longer saying that there's only one ending) but I wouldn't be too surprised if it doesn't actually change all that much.
I like to think that either Toby wants to subvert the "one ending" by relating it to the "your choices don't matter" theme which has to a point been subverted, or to make an ending which is narratively constructed in a way that no matter what we do beforehand it's going to look the same - something very general, like the world ending to the Roaring or whatnot.
Though I don't think the second option leaves as much room to creativity in the ending which supposedly came in a dream and made Toby obsessed with it for several years... So I'm inclined to believe in the first option a bit more.
...I guess there really could just be one ending in the style of Undertale Neutral though. Huh.
For the "... only 1 ending...?" part, maybe he was saying it from the perspective of a confused/surprised Undertale fan
@@supercato9613 he reiterated it several times on interviews and twitter etc, so I don't think that's the case. Cool idea though.
I remember seeing somewhere that the death animation that happens when you use snowgrave on a normal enemy was already present in Chapter 1, although unused, and we just hadn't found it before. I can't confirm it, but I'm pretty sure it's true.
I also think it's unlikely that the Snowgrave Route originated just because of an oversight on how ice magic works. He could've very well just made enemies still run away if you kill them with Iceshock (Berdly still survives if you use Iceshock on him instead of Snowgrave, after all), or just scrap that ability and come up with another one (maybe some sort of Ice Barrier that can protect you from enemy attacks).
To add to it, all natural endings count as one ending.
I’d say the Genocide route in Undertale has to be searched for as well. You have to stay and actively search for monsters to kill, so to me the neutral route would be more fitting in that aspect. Both fit.
to be fair, the kinda payers who farma ton would do that, that kind of players is also the kind of player who generally play turn-based rpgs, especially retro ones.
There's also plenty of signs you should stop like what toriel says, the snowdin shopkeeper and sans when he talks about you fighting his brother
@@Kaii540 All the more reason to keep going.
@@iota-09 to miss it you only need to advance in a room once, or leave the ruins before killing every single monster
@@Kaii540 Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that someone playing for the first time could ignore their warnings and start grinding.
I kind of have a theory, there are allot of hints in the game that your path is pre-determined, from the first chapter literally telling you that your choices don't matter to Spamton going off about our strings, so maybe we think we're forging our own path with our decisions, but maybe in the background The Knight has some grand scheme, and regardless of what choices we make along the way the ending laid out for us will be the same, unless we get sneaky and go against the grain. If you do the snowgrave route tons of things happen out of order, which is the same as it was back in undertale with the genocide route, but when you go to the hospital afterward, the bead track that normally reads "The beads march grimly along their set path" instead says a blue bead has been torn off, which makes me think doing the snowrave route has altered the story in a way that wasn't even meant to happen, and even if it's a one off thing, killing Berdly could create a butterfly effect that leads to an entirely different ending. That might not be the only alternate ending though, when you beat Spamton NEO he tells you that with strength like yours you might one day be able to break your own strings, so maybe beating all of the secret bosses and collecting all the shadow crystals could lead to another ending where you become so powerful you're able to alter the course of fate and make the story end in the best way possible
I believe the strings thing is referring to us the player
@@elyonsilvarath6854 I believe that the Snowgrave ending will be the fun gang kicking your ass. If by the power of friendship they can beat every bad guy, how is the player any different ?
Sounds like that would take a lot of determination
I almost went into a sort of sadness/disappointment when i saw that you'd have to kill berdly to progress the snowgrave route. I promptly ended it there. I can't just kill berdly.
I have a weird thing where I’m totally up for being a psychopath in games
Actually if you choose to do the route and then not kill berdly you get to keep the ring of thorns which is cool.
@@zaptrap4802 Yeah, and spamton mentions it later how you got his ring
@@zaptrap4802 Oh hey its zaptrap.
meanwhile, my friend did it specifically *to* kill berdly.
The ending might be the same I feel with regards to the characters rejecting the player’s agency or attempt to control the them. But the effect that the player has on the world will be different I think.
I also think that the game telling you that your choices don’t matter could just be a lie to really bring different narrative to the game
Well, YOURS don't matter since you're the outsider to their world...
But those of others do.
I think the 'Your choices don't matter' phrase applies to Kris, Susie and Ralsie, but it doesn't apply to the player or someone like Noelle as depicted in the snowgrave route
@@lakshyapatel3842 no it applies to just Kris, not ralsei and Susie.. especially since Susie shows very clearly that she makes her own choices
@@bradDark6941 but her choices are made once, they are static and unchanging, if such a "choice" is placed inside an eternal loop, is it really a decision anymore?
Idea: Did Toby actually say "equivalent to"? What if "equivalent to" means something other than what we thought?
In my opinion: I think Toby fox said “Your choice doesn’t matter” so many times because that’s the story plot, THEIR choice doesn’t matter because you’re in control of it, it’s been revolving around the concept of your choice never mattering because someone is in control of it. Like kristopher and the player for example, their choice only matters because they can take ourselves out for a limited time. And you take control of noelle. I think the ending might be that kris is gonna make YOUR choices not matter anymore. Anyways welcome to my TEDdy bear talk cya.
“Kristopher” DEADDD omg
I've seen a theory that Noelle was able to make an actual difference because she was not apart of the prophecy. Kris, Susie, and Ralsei all have their paths written, an ending for them all, but Noelle is just an outsider. She has freedom, and Kris takes advantage of that.
@@tovi3280 Yes, “Kristopher”
@@kidwhat6664 that’s very plausible, because the prophecy is merely fate, and if your fate is uncertain you can make a change
@@tovi3280 “TEDdy bear talk”
I feel this is one of those situations where the ending for the PLAYER (and maybe Kris, by extension, given the whole possession thing) will be the same, but the path you take to get there is wildly different, as well as who you get to share the ending with.
As a way of saying, "Every path you take leads here, but at the very least, you have your friends." Or perhaps, "Your path is the same regardless, but the paths your friends take will change."
Snowgrave turns deltarune into a horror game
*Reverse horror game
Nah, ur just an over-sensitive pansy. It's a great route with great storytelling and interesting "alternative" character development
@@insectlover602 It's a matter of perspective. Personally I would sooner think you're soulless than this guy is oversensitive. Admittedly, I wouldn't exactly call it horror, but it does have psychological horror elements to it, and through guilt-tripping the player at every point of the route it really tries to emphasize that this route is just wrong.
@@insectlover602 huh? I love horror games-
@@abcdef-ms9mb Well personally I agree with both people. It was quite fun to go through and see what changed, but it very clearly tried to show you that what you were doing was wrong. Personally I don't get the whole "I'm not doing snowgwave it's too scawwy, I'm not a monstwer!!! 😣😣😣😣😣😣😣😣" type argument some people seem to have, as I just found it interesting and didn't really feel guilty for doing it at all, but I still realize that's likely not what was intended by the developers, and I wouldn't go as far as to call someone oversensitive over it (Though again it's what it looks like from my perspective). Nor would I call myself soulless for not feeling bad for manipulating and killing virtual characters. Both sides have an argument, but at the end of the day, it's just a game, and I don't think taking it that seriously either way is worth it.
That Ralsei in a tank image was awesome. Could you draw him in the Red Baron next?
I personally feel its still the opposite for undertale, the Genocide route is something that in every way discourages you from continuing. It's lifeless, boring, grindy and doesn't hold any challenge except for Undyne and Sans. The point about not following RPG instincts still stands though, since it'll most likely just get you to the Neutral ending as you should at first.
You forgot about the hardest boss, mettaton neo, the boss with the highest |defense|
not necessarily,. i think the actual reason it's "opposite" is that in that game, the monster is the player/mc, but in here you make someone else the monster... while probably being one yourself.
it's even worse in a way.
@@iota-09 true... and in doing so, you remove the burden (the actual killing of enemies, functionally grinding for EXP) from yourself.
Yeah, I prefer the pacifist route in both Undertale and Deltarune.
I watched a summary of someone doing the Snowgrave route and it was pretty depressing to watch Noelle be something that she's not, but is forced to become all because the player has control.
Proceed
i acually prefer neutral and genocide in undertale, whereas in deltarune... i'm conflicted.
i like standard over snowgrave, but... for all we know, it may not be a "route" in the common way we think of them, tyhe game definitely changes when we do it, but when you think about it, we don't actually know what happened to berdly, and as much as noelle might be creeped out by kris at the end of it, she's still... sane? to an extent.
so the ending could still very much be the same, but what leads to it... who knows.
as for the depressive part: i persoanlly think that kind of story if done properly can give a lot more meaning and a much deeper story than heartmelting sweetness 'n stuff, and toby seeems to be on the right path with deltarune to give exactly that.
as the video said: "if someone is too determined and their will too firm, they could end up impacting the future of of other people, of the entire world by themselves, and who knows if that's a good or bad thing..."
i genuinely don't think i've ever seen this lesson be told from the player's perspective in any game i played, and yet it is possibly the most important lesson i can think of about living with other people in a world.
As Flowey said in Undertale, you are a coward.
@@Daniel328DT
Kinda hard to call someone a coward when they fought Omega Flowey on their first playthrough and won
I think that’s why I love snowgrave so much, because unlike Undertale you see the mental break and the trauma that the weird route causes and it’s so cool
I think it will go like this.
If you do the snowgrave / genocide routes of all chapters apart from chapter 1, a terrifying corrupted team that you made yourself will take down the titans from the roaring, since the roaring will MOST LIKELY happen.
same if you do the normal route, but the team won't be corrupted.
Thank u so much for tank ralsei I’m literally crying 😭💜💜🥰
lmao nice
Why is he in a tank?
Epic
@@Daniel328DTwar
Not gonna lie, playing the Snowgrave route felt *worse* for me than *the whole Genocide route* in Undertale; it's one thing to do a terrible thing yourself, but that feeling is so much worse when you force someone else to become something they don't want to be...yikes.
Gave me some serious Dark Side KOTOR I vibes, when you can force Zaalbar to murder Mission....friggin yikes
You actually see an interaction of the behavior, while the character you play as is muted in Undertale. That's why it holds more meaning over a silent character.
I hope we get to hear, firsthand, Toby's fever dream vision of an ending to a game, so that if it doesn't come out right in the ending to Deltarune, we can see what crazy idea dragged Toby on a probably decade-long adventure making a game. I HAVE to know what that ending is, man. Exactly in the words of Mr. Toby Fox.
3:02 this Toby quote is the funniest thing ever
Personally i think that the ending(s) are gonna be like undertale's neutral endings, the angel's heaven will be banished, the dark worlds will be safe, the knight, whoever they are will be defeated, no matter what happens to everyone, in the end. *Your choices dont matter.*
I like that Snowgrave is a thing, there's something so fascinatingly dark about it... but dang, I have never felt more guilty about actions in a video game.
To make us feel R E G R E T for what we have done in the past.
Toby fox:Arach is a furry.
Arach:At not truth!
Toby fox:Then why did you were a mouse customer in your human form?
Arach:You get me there.
I can't do Snowgrave, it's a whole new level of awfulness for a player to dive into
So you wouldn't manipulate a deer to do your bidding and kill all the darkners, obsessively stalk her and terrify her by reading her mind, and kill the friend she worked with? Nonsense! Your choices won't matter in the end.
Toby can really just go from “haha funny gen z humor” to freaking all of us out and making us feel awful in an instant.
I think why Toby made the game this way is to show us, the player, that no matter what we do the ending will remain with us closing the fountain. Doesn't matter if we kill or spare everybody, one way or another that fountain is GOING to close.
"The beads march grimly along their set path."
"One of the blue beads has snapped off."
Oh, boy, can`t wait for a discussion about psychological manipulation/torture and mass murder!
1:39
Undertale wouldn't have gotten as popular as it did if Toby Fox hadn't included Sans' and Flowey's fourth wall breaking, which only stemmed from his confidence. He couldn't know if it was perceived as good; but he had to do it. In the end it paid off, so I think we all know the lesson he taught us... *✨STAY DETERMINED!✨*
PROCEED.
5:08 No, the name of the game is DELTARUNE
You, sir, are technically correct. The best kind of correct!
Thank you, you really brought to mind the fact that Undertale makes you work hard to do the pacifist route, and Deltarune makes you work hard to do the genocide route. In Undertale mindless killing is a default, and in Deltarune sparing is the default.
Definitely good food for thought. This will help me with my theorizing, lol.
Toby probably just really wanted some frozen chicken nuggets
I didn't know Berdley was a chicken.
I personally think the snowgrave route exists for 1 reason and 1 reason only: to expand on the clear theme of freedom so far. Think about it, both of the secret bosses have been about freedom. Jevil has accepted that he’s imprisoned and thinks he’s the only true free one, and spamton yearns for his freedom, greater than anything else. And while all of this is going on… Kris wants freedom more than anyone. They’re constantly being controlled by the player being forced to do things they don’t want to do. Like for example, after you beat spamton, Kris seems to be angry about the whole thing. Ralsei and Susie interpret this as Kris just having strong feelings about spamton, but I believe it’s because Kris never wanted to fight spamton to behind with. Kris is always yearning for freedom and that makes it all the more painful when he is forced to manipulate his childhood best friend into becoming a monster. And we know it’s not Kris saying to do this things as Noelle says “Kris the voice isn’t coming from you anymore.” Some people believe this means it’s finally getting to noelle and she’s going crazy, but I believe it’s supposed to represent the player telling Noelle to do these things and not Kris. TL;DR, snowgrave exists to expand upon the theme of freedom, and show Kris’ lack of freedom.
I think it's gonna be like theres no "pacifist" or "genocide" route. its gonna be like the neutral ending- the end point for kris is gonna be the same, but its gonna be different for the characters around them.
Honestly I think Toby told the truth when he said there would only be one ending. A theory I've seen in comment sections which I personally agree with is that the big picture is the same overall but there there are variations. For example with Snowgrave the ending is the same with variations as well. The big picture is that the cyber world is closed, Kris and Susie return to the real world and Noelle is saved. The variations are that most of the cyberworld is dead (Nubert stayed behind so I guess he dies), Berdly is dead and Spamton has some good intentions when fighting you.
I mean one way that the ending is the same no matter what is if everyone dies in the end anyways, yeah you might kill berdly in ch2 snowgrave rout, but if the end of both pacifist and genocide route is a world ending event where everyone dies it dosnt matter if people are killed off early cause they would be dead anyways.
There is still going to be ONE ending, but how we get there can change drastically.
I still reckon Deltarune will have just one singular ending but I believe it is the story along the way that will change instead. And depending on which route you may take, however many there may be, the context and messages of that single ending may change drastically. I kind of see this solution as the only way that this game can still continue the way it is right now and still not have the need to branch out into multiple endings. Such a Toby move honestly.
Let's take the example that the ending would be Kris getting rid of the player. This happens no matter what you've done.
Now if you spared everyone and went the good routes it'll maybe be a Nice farewell.
If you do the bad routes tho Kris is forcefully gonna get you out of them, leaving the player in front of the screen with an empty feeling that after all they weren't the friend of all these characters after all
i always love your art style! keep it!
I my question is
Who would
Meet noelle
Go back
Use iceshock on the previous monster
Go back even more and use iceshock on every enemy you see
Go to the guy with the store
And SPAM GET IT AND SPAM PROCEED EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE
And go to the dumpster and get the snowgrave ring and use it on BERDLY
WHO TF DISCOVERD SNOWGRAVE/WIERD/ALTERNATIVE ROUTE
Thank you for Undertale/Deltarune video.
Thats why i subscribed here.
I cried while doing snowgrave.......... because spamton took me 2 hours.
if there was a potassium route everyone would be talking about it for YEARS
See, the biggest hurdle when trying to theorize on The Small White Dog's games is that he is exceptionally meta-aware. "He knows that we know that he knows that we know that etc."
Maybe Snowgrave only affects people who won't be in the ending? Maybe Noelle and Birdly won't even be there for whatever Toby had planned in the ending, and he just threw together a fun little bit of psychological torture for his genocide buddies. Or the ending works like the rest have so far, there's just variations where some people don't show up to group together to defeat the big bad guy, if you don't meet certain conditions. Like the recruitment in chapter 2, if you don't spare and recruit everyone, they won't all show up to build the robot. Only some will. Or if you beat up monsters in chapter 1, they won't defend you, but will be against you. They don't change anything, it's still the same, but you just get to the end differently.
Get your "here under 5 five hours" tokens.
"your choices dont matter, but everyone will still remember."
so in the first chapter we make susie aware that violence isnt the only option and in the snowgrave of chapter 2 we made noelle aware that she can be more confident even if that means killing berdly, it makes noelle more confident in herself in the real world as well, just like how susie actually becomes our friend in chapter 1
0:09 LOOK THERE I AM XD That's so cool
Could you make Susie, Kris, and Ralsei in a duck tank, please!
I love your art style
I think the ending is going to be the same as a way of punishing people chasing after a darker ending. "Revel in all the atrocities you have commited, for it has been all futile, and now look at the outcome, but an empty kind of happiness"
You guy's used my idea YESSSSS :D
Something I think will happen that’ll make us feel even WORSE for the Weird Route, is there won’t be repercussions, nobody is really gonna call us out, no hero is gonna try and stop us, no karma, just a hard and quick path, where YOU are the one who has to stop it, nobody left to blame
Imagine Toby's characters doing a Borderlands crossover cosplay! It's too perfect! Kris = Roland/Axton main. Susie = Brick/Krieg main. Ralsei/Noelle = Siren mains. Queen = Aurelia main. Tasque Manager = Nisha main. Berdly = Mordecai (which is funny for at least two reasons).
*Note:* Yeah, I know Toby thinks FPS games are B0ring. Just think of it as a motif.
3:47 Speaking of which, there's a "Love and Peace" Trigun reference (spoken by Royal Guard 01) toward the end of the "True VASHifist" route. Truth be told, though (if we're talking about real-world philosophy), I think Undyne and Wolfwood have the best and most practical ideals. But it's still important to maintain a sense of idealism. So it's really balance that's the issue. Finding the right balance between Vash's idealism and Wolfwood's realism. Idealism without realism and you get nothing done. Realism without idealism and you have no grand vision.
4:05 In pragmatic terms, you have to assess what's actually going on. For example, if you realize that you're the interloper in their world, and if you have a civilized mentality (typically but not always indicative of a Lawful alignment in D&D terms), then you'll be less likely to act like a marauder.
4:18 [[insert reference to Nietzsche's "fight monsters, become a monster" quote]]
I think I know why The Snowgrave Route exist, cause Toby Fox knew you couldn't do a genocide route in the first game. He doesn't want everyone to die in it, like Undertale. He doesn't like the Genocide Route.
You can kill the darkener enemys by not snowgraving berdly, bc you keep the spell, it even has a special death animation
@@toastNeko Yeah, I know Toby Fox in one of the anniversary streams, he said he doesn't like the Genocide Route.
"Deltarune will not have a route equivalent to Undertale's Genocide Route."
*breathes in relief*
"The route I have in mind will be much worse."
The overarching story of Deltarune seems to be elaborating on the meta aspects of Undertale; but instead of focusing on the player vs the game, its the player vs the playable character. Kris is a slave to the player's will. They don't have a choice. They can't choose to do what they want, they have to follow the whims of the player - no matter how good or evil those whims may be.
Chapter 1 establishes normalcy. Its restrictive and sets the stage. There's a strong emphasis on prophecy and fate, which makes sense; it is a game after all. Chapter 2 plays fairly similarly, until you are given an avenue to subvert that. The Snowgrave Route isn't immediately apparent, it really is an "oh I can do that?? Let's see what happens if I do." type of route. There is virtually no reason to undergo it other than curiosity. It serves to reveal that there are cracks in the set nature of Deltarune - that the fate of the story isn't as set in stone as you may think.
Regardless of route, Spamton really pushes this overarching narrative perfectly. A dodgy salesman within a dumpster in a dingy alleyway offering a blatant scam? Anyone in their right mind would flee on sight. Kris would flee on sight. But we don't let them. No, instead, we force them to accept the dodgy deal - and almost get them killed in the end because of it. Kris knows they were lucky this time, but that luck will run dry eventually. They need to get out. They need to regain control.
I predict future chapters will explore this inner conflict more thoroughly. The routes will become more apparent, and diverge more substantially thanks to characters like Spamton that seemingly know that they are in a game. The Mike that Spamton refers to, likely the source of his own meta-knowledge, will likely play a role in Chapter 3 - more substantial than a secret boss or relatively obscure side character. The end results may be the same, but the journey will differ tremendously. There isn't much difference between Jevil, Spamton and Kris - except that Kris is likely strong enough to cut his own strings.
One thing I’ve always wondered is if berdly will be further in the game. He’s a big character. Chapter 1 was really saying your choices don’t matter, but chapter 2 is like “Alright how would you like this important character? Chicken or frozen?”
The broad strokes of the ending are prob gonna be the same with only minor differences depending on small things you do throughout the game
All the secret bosses and side routes are mostly to give better context to the characters and their motivations that wouldn't be apparent if everything goes according to plan
And the theme of the secret bosses and side paths is Freedom, deliberately going as far out of your way as the game will allow to forge your own path while the universe itself still has you chained to the plot regardless
Determination is what changes the world, good or bad.
Interesting....
What do you two think?
I think a great way to see this is the Journey isn’t just the ending it’s the way you choose to get there.
I’ll say this: he’s tricking us about EVERYTHING!!!! Why bring all of the characters(and monster species) from undertale to deltarune and say “it’s not connected”. ITS OBVIOUSLY CONNECTED AND I THINK THERES GONNA BE MORE THAN 1 ENDING!!!
All I know is
Every stand user protagonist gained their stand after a mysterious fever.
I was thinking could still have the same ending as all the choices end up resulting in the same ultimate ending. As for what happens in-between can either be strict in terms of events, alternative paths are dismissed in some way, or having wiggle room but the ending is not able to be avoided or bypassed.
1:37 this is some kind of prophecy! A dream prophecy!
I'm excited for when it's been long enough since the release of Deltarune Ch. 2 that Toby Fox can publicly say something about the Weird Route.
please draw spamton as homer simpson... kromer simpson if you will
I think the snowgrave spell itself is just us, the player saying "kill" without any instructions or knowledge of how it would work, or how it's even said.
Some people even say that Snowgrave route is MUCH worse than Genocide route from Undertale.
Yeah… no. In Undertale Genocide, you kill everyone. Everyone. You kill people with families, people who never did anything wrong to you, and people who just wanted to be friends. Im not saying SnowGrave is good, but I think dispute the manipulation and murder of a beloved friend, you kill much more friends in genocide.
@@cobblerox9444 The point is that you aren't. When starting any new save in UT, they are not your friends, and by doing Genocide, they never become your friends either, while in DR, both Noelle (Who is completely broken down at the end of Ch2) and Berdly (Who was killed) were Kris' friends before Ch1, so you
are always going to kill your friend and break your other friend, no matter what you do in Ch1, because unlike in Undertale, where you have to befriend the cast first, there is nobody to befriend here that isn't your friend when you restart, they already are befriended.
Well frozen stuff aren't always dead and berdly will probably just come back with a cold
The fact that the Snowgrave route is optional makes doing the Snowgrave route hurt so much more. You could have just as easily done the normal route and moved on with your life but no you chose to do the Snowgrave route which makes you feel bad even more.
And yes I know the same could be said about Undertale's Genocide route.
Undertale's genocide route was optional as well but it was crucial to learning more about the other characters, particularly Flowey in general.
@@matthewquach2705 True but you can always just watch a playthrough of it on UA-cam
2:38 skip the squarespace part here
3:21 "Please draw Ralsei in a tank"
bruh
Seeing Spamton in this artstyle is surreal.
LUIGI?!
Its weird since toby said there would only be one ending maybe at the end the different routes merge back together and theres still only one ending or that one ending has multiple. Variations
I don’t think Toby was lying about the game having one ending. I believe it’s possible you’ll just be punished for doing so, like being locked or hindered from the ending of the game, maybe making you redo it all. It’d be a good punishment tbh.
In order to do something impactful, only determination is not enough. You must also have the opportunity. Why people always forget about it.
Imagine not wanting to Purify the wicked while guiding lost souls to salvation of power
Toby be like : you have no control
Toby also be like : sike
i believe he added the snowgrave route knowing that players would have searched regardless.
in deltarune, our choices won't affect the ending, just the journey we take towards it. this is such a jarring change from undertale, that most people want to do anything they can in hopes of obtaining the same level of control they had back in undertale, where your actions could affect your ending in large and small ways.
the snowgrave is a terrifying reflection of the concept that our choices don't matter, but the choices of those around us do matter. noelle's actions mattered by the end in whether we'd have her as an ally or not in the end, but will that affect the end itself? no.
The quote about determination... Queen said something about that in game. 🤔
When being really mean to your friend is fun
Honestly if Toby goes through with the Snowgrove playthrough for the rest of the 5 chapters, it could be 1 or the darkest playthrough in a video game. Hell just in 1 chapter they made Snowgrove almost darker than the Genocide run of Undertale. Because at least in that run, the players is already corrupt at the beginning, but in this you are literally corrupting a pure innocent soul to kill, and then make her kill her friend. I really hope Toby continues on the Snowgrove path for the rest of the chapters, even if every final boss is incredibly hard, I would definitely take it
"You want WHAT kind of spell?!"
I didn't expect Lucas to show up in the middle of video about Deltarune 🙂
I think it's more likely that if Deltarune has an equivalent to Undertale's Pacifist ending, it'll be the result of getting all recruits and defeating all the secret bosses to get the shadow crystals.
In Undertale, most of the plot is the same in both the Pacifist route and the Neutral route, while the Murder route changes the plot drastically.
Maybe Deltarune is headed the same way? Both games have a character near the start of the game who advises you to show mercy to enemies, Toriel in Undertale, and Ralsei in Deltarune.
In many respects. Toby Fox is like the Robert Rodriguez of video games. They both take what little they have and make something big, creative, and cool using clever tactics and doing most of the work themselves.
Toby:deltarune never gonna have genocide ruote
Also Toby:
the spell snowgrave reminds me of "upt_co."
people were complaining about there being no choices in deltarune so he added choices to deltarune