SBC EFI STACK INJECTION-DOES IT WORK? (FULL DYNO RESULTS)
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- CARBS VS INDIVIDUAL RUNNER STACK INJECTION-WHO WINS? CHECK OUT THIS DYNO COMPARISON BETWEEN A DUAL-PLANE CARBURETED INDUCTION SYSTEM AND THE SPEEDMASTER 8-STACK (DOWNDRAFT) INJECTION SYSTEM. EQUIPPED WITH EIGHT THROTTLE BLADES, A CENTER-PIVOT LINKAGE AND POLISHED, FULL RADIUSED AIR HORNS, THE INDIVIDUAL-RUNNER INTAKE SYSTEM LOOKS GREAT, BUT DOES IT MAKE ANY POWER? WE EVEN TESTED THE SCREEN FILTERS AVAILABLE WITH THE INJECTION SYSTEM (NOT GOOD). WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CHOOSE?
This is the second best intake manifold, behind the belt-driven intake manifold.
Belt driven manifolds are king
Cross ram Mopar wedge manifold are pretty baller!
I’m a big fan of the belt driven manifolds.
I'd rather bolt a hairdryer to the exhaust manifold.
@@hudsondonnell444
The spinning exhaust manifold is the best kind of exhaust manifold.
You do a dyno with screens in the stacks and then say its basically the same as the carb. But then you don't do a carb pull with an air filter. 🤦
A free-flowing, through top, K&N will offer little or no resistance to air flow. With the ITB the same can be accomplished at an astronomical expense, aesthetics notwithstanding!
You didn't mention the 3rd reason for going with ITBs, THE SOUND!
Oh yes sounds amazing.
Also throttle response is from another level
David Vizard has always done exactly what you do on dynos since the 1980:s he is a British engineer. He figured out Back then, a large area K&N filter, flowed the best over these style carburetor s
He is still in Cali, still Dyno testing motors. Can even be found on you tube. He has written a ton of Automotive Engineer books . Which is the only way to get a quick answer from him ( because you can read at your own pace. He is a slow speaking engineering type. But a very thorough researcher.
THNX-I'VE SPOKEN TO DAVID MANY TIMES-HE IS THE GOODS
@@richardholdener1727 also worth checking out a guy called David Baker. Vizard and him are friends, both VERY knowledgeable with decades of experience.
Cool to see someone mention Vizard, he's one of those geniuses that gets no attention for his work and has always been at the top of the game.
Also reminds me of Joe Sherman, the undisputable Kind of budget horsepower.
So why doesn't someone make one enclosed in clear plastic? The new C8 needs that
Personally I blame squirrels
Yep, it's Always squirrels! 🤣
@@thetransformatorium7980 👉🏻🐿✅😎
More like sanitarium
@@fasteddy Leave me be...~Metallica
@@kramnull8962 good tune
You compared the ITB with the screens to the carb without a filter. Why didn't you put a filter on the carb to get a better apples to apples comparison?
I run 8 stacks EFI an a 452 cu. in FE Ford. Made 600 ft.lbs on the dyno, up 50 from the Victor intake with 850 holley. Peak HP was about the same.
The stack sounds awesome also.
So I’m other words not worth it. 3k for a 50ib increase? Only thing I see worth is the badass look it gives. The borla 8 stack is 5-7k…. With that money you can get way more hp and tq investing it into heads and other goodies
I don't care it looks so darn cool. Besides, back in my day we ran L-88 air cleaner that was installed in the hood the carb horn sealed when the hood was down. Pulling cool high pressure air from the base of the windshield???
This is pretty rad! I for one, would love to see a back to back to back comparison of EFI stack injection, mechanical stack injection, and quad Webers. Just to help possibly answer lingering questions about the benefits/drawbacks of various individual runner intake systems.
I’m just glad no one besides me can hear what goes on inside my head...especially when I argue with myself...much less with internet experts. Funny skit 👍
I scare myself..."we" just had a go round about my roll bar install that would have got me commited !
That hat to the side though 😂😂😂😂
People who wear their caps sideways forfiet the right to talk about carburetors.
I know which one looks like a 1960's racer, and I'll take that.
A filter on the carburated setup would also reduce power...
How can you make a video about ITB or "stack" injection, comparing it to common carb, WITHOUT mentioning the #1 reason to switch to ITB (throttle response)?
Did I miss where the carb had a filter on it?
Only thing I can figure is, he is trying to bring the price of the injection system into perspective. Those have always been much much more than the average build deserves...
As Engine Masters proved a few years back the filter top makes very little difference. More so in a mild engine
Small Block Chevy?!?!? Where's the LS test- can you even get SBC's any more? ;-) And, more importantly,- why would you want to?
I think all that shiny stuff looks great, on somebody else's car. I have always admired the looks of a hot,and totally trick ride but it's like too much chrome on my Harley Too much work 4 me. I think that 3sets [f dual downdraft webber on a 56 Massaratti GTooked best. Just my opinion.
I've never seen anyone have good luck with the Holly 750? Make it a 650 or an 850 for me. Though i would like to try their 750 Dominator someday.
Finally.. Richard told Richard what step up actually means. Someone had to!
:)
Richard, really like your videos and appreciate your insights. One major thing to consider with individual throttle bodies is the sound. Obviously most v8s that you test have great exhaust note which dominates the sound experience, but for me, I've become obsessed with the noise that can come out the front of the car from induction resonance. Bare stacks will sound really good, but encasing them in a huge plenum that vibrates a lot (ideally carbon fiber) is the uper echelon of the sound experience. Definitely check out the McLaren F1, the BMW e30 M3 DTM racer, the BMW e46 M3 CSL, and the Lexus LFA. I bet the trophy trucks you mentioned have a bit of it too. The exhaust sounds great on all those cars listed, but the sound experience is dominated by the induction noise. Not sure how many V8 hot rodders would go that far, but it is definitely untapped sound joy if you are splurging for ITB.
My dream is to fit a Jenvey ITB system (like what is on the Driftworks DW86) to my LS3 project and fabricate my own carbon fiber sound cannons.
have a holly sniper efi now, how hard would it be to change to this efi stack intake?
Speed master. Cmon. Get a good tuned Engler on that baby then talk numbers.
i wanted to hear the engine scream, could’ve just read an article for this info
Funny i have a 355 sbc with a big cam, edelbrock aluminum heads that are ported, edelbrock h122 supercharger at 8psi. I run a quickfuel 850 dp blower carb and its still technically too big up to 5500 rpm. Flows 870 cfm at 6500rpm on the chip.
850 is not too big for a supercharged small block
Are you going to try different length air horns on it? I'd like to see the results. Also what about an oval filter designed to cover all the stacks?
Id go with the large box type hes talking about like this one. kinsler.com/Shop/product/kn-carbon-fiber-air-box-assembly-for-v8-base-not-cut-for-ramtubes/
take a look at the other IR tests (5.7l Hemi)-I played with stack length
I wonder what Richard's dog would make of him yelling at the computer.
Arf?
The undies on the head is a good look.
Put a plexiglas filter box on the ITB's.
Or those Oval four cylinder filter setups.
Love the video but was wondering where to plumb the fuel line on 1968camaro firewall with Barla 8stak help me if you can thanks.
doesn't your factory line run under the car?
I'm already fabricating in my mind a billet bottom plate that would allow you to keep the stacks, and use say a large oval air filter from the Air Grabber Mopar, and a top high enough above the stacks to not impede airflow and allow the radius of each stack to do its job. To take full advantage of the potential airflow, I would also try and double stack the filters and turn some standoffs on the lathe to keep the filters from collapsing when tightening the top.
BTW, thank you for not putting a larger carb than a 650 on that combo.
T.S. RACING
I'm going to stop you right here at the very beginning of the video because gears and gasoline showed me this unique fact about Vortex stacks and I would imagine they would add about roughly five horsepower per cylinder in a V8 if they are done correctly
that is not universally accurate
It worked in the 60's. Why wouldn't it work now?
I learn something EVERY time I watch your video's Brother, Thank you!
is there anything new on stack injection systems for LS ?
Who wins when Richard debates Richie?
... We do!
Richard,
Will this EFI work with a mechanical fuel pump or does it need an electric pump? Thanks!
needs high pressure electric
Did you run a air cleaner on the 650 Holley? If not put a air cleaner on it and run the dyno again and see how much HP that the Carb combo loses. Great video.
there is no loss
Thanks
Something that's intrigued me about ITB setups has been the supposed power differences between short, mid, and long trumpets. I've always understood how changing the length of the intake runners effects the power band because of the resonance wave between the valve and the throttle blade, but no one has explained how or why it can change with different length trumpets. They only effect the air before the throttle.
its all runner length-changes arrival of reflected wave
Now that's a cool intake!
Hey Richard is it possible if we could talk about ecus and tunes and computers to run this all? From cams to turbos to nitrous, the thing that I see missing from the videos and my information on how to run a similar horsepower is the ecm that runs it all.
But did you test the 4 barrel with an air cleaner tho ?
Without a doubt Richard is the best. I have been reading and watching his stuff for years and I always enjoy his take on things plus he has so much knowledge that smart people will know to listen to what he says. Dumb people will argue and question him but they have no background like he does. I have done a lot of engines and cars in my time and fully appreciate what he tells us. You can learn a lot from this man, please pay attention. Thank you Richard for yet again another revealing video.
Not that I know a lot this but what is the loss on a carb with a top filter?
little or no power loss with the right filter set up
@@richardholdener1727 Would Phil Remington's great sounding 289 (Brock's Daytona Coupe) with a turkey pan be a better solution instead of filters? How much loss would you estimate on that setup?
So the filter costing power on the ir manifold is not super surprising, they cost power on the single 4barrel as well…
the right filter on a 4-barrel carb costs nothing-it can actually add power
How dare you compare apples to apples...
@@richardholdener1727 I don’t disagree, is the same not true of the ir? I’m assuming your point is that you can’t see the cool factor of the ir if you put a filter system on it, but there is still the neck snapping throttle response which is pretty cool!😉
@@richardholdener1727 can "right" air filters add power to individual runners like they can on the 4 barrel?
I have been intrigued with the Speedmaster Stack FI and was excited to see your test. I have always heard on weber carbs that the filtration was always an issue (to be fair, a small issue compared to tuning the carbs). One question I had: did you run a filter on the carb on the dyno? If not, seems like an unfair comparison. It would be interesting to see a run with them filter vs. filter.
my thoughts exactly
a good air cleaner on the carb can actually add power
@@richardholdener1727 so can a good air box for the ITB's but i understand the carbs are simpler so naturally there would be a preference to them
A 650 carb is perfectly fine for a 350. My buddy runs a 650 edelbrock on a 460 big block ford. It does just fine for that truck. I run an 850 Demon on my 400 small block race car but thats a whole other ball game. Never dynod the car but were estimating it makes around 450-475hp with about 510-520 ft-lbs. Its a screamer for only running 10:1 compression
Holly crap, I watch as many videos as I can by you, love the way you do things I don’t usually comment, due to people always having something to say about it and sometimes not having a clue . But when I saw this posted I thought to myself uh oh Richard is gonna run this stack setup against a dual plane intake , and of coarse it’s gonna make more power. But then you did what amazed me , you did what Richard does and mentioned how hard these are to tune for normal non full race drivability! Thank you mr holdner , sorry I started to loose a little faith in you. And thank you for all you do!
Sorry I spelled your last name wrong in my quest to give you respect.. lol
Correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't use a filter on the conventional card either. So its safe to assume the same losses would happen, and then stack injection is still ahead.
a filter on the carb set up has no effect on power
Next video, Gen 3/4 hemi hi ram!!!!!
I messed up my first one. Sorry, I shall reiterate.
About 270 degrees duration, with a little port work in the bowl and on the bias will really wake this beastie up. Keep the same lift and LSA, and using waisted-stem valves with knock your socks off. The ram affect produced by an IR intake really comes into its own at the mid-lift to full-open, making it a natural supercharger.
Like they say there is nothing new Under the Sun. Tom Nelson of Nelson Racing Engines has been using stack injection for years making thousands of horsepower and still be able to drive the car around town like a ho-hum grocery getter play great fuel mileage until you stand in those stack injectors causing all kinds of havoc on the street like two foot wide Mickey Thompson's turning into fire and smoke painting the streets of downtown LA with two big black stripes from idle speed to top end oh my God
8 barrels are better then 4. Screens?? Ya. Need to keep out those squirrels!!!
Drat. Squirrels always get the blame!
👿🔱😈..ok I'm not an engine mechanic so I would appreciate some information on this topic.. Are these not carburetors ?.. so they are fuel injected carburetors how does that work compared to a regular carburetor...ty for any info
the EFI is not a carburetor-it is fuel injection
@@richardholdener1727 okay on a modern car when I pop the hood and look underneath it it's fuel injection I don't see anything that looks like what's in this video... and what you're saying isn't a carburetor has butterflies in it and it adjist the air flow yes ?.. just like a carburetor has butterflies that adjust air flow
@@richardholdener1727 perhaps I need to look up Webster's definition of what a carburetor is🤔
I made a comment about putting a plexi lid on an airbox for the stack injection intake... and it got deleted?!
So a filter on the 4bbl would have made even less still.
probably not
@@richardholdener1727 Fine. The 4bbl will run richer then....lol....and not be capable of compensating.
I would like to see a comparison with idf webers and dcoe webers
If you want to retain the appearance use a big airbox made out of clear sheet plastic. Alternatively use just one big throttle body on an intake plenum, the most practical solution.
Nick dino'ed a Chevy 400 with a 750 Holley, the engine gained 4hp when swapped with a 650 Holley, the engine only pulled 496cfm with BOTH carbs. Hp was 411hp with 445tq..
How woud 4 IDA Webers compare
Rick, Rickey, and Dick give me a headache. Great comparo Richard. Stuff I've always wanted to see. Yeah, screens are horribly restrictive. Screen material on a window blocks 50% of the air!
I bought a scooter that been ran without a filter, I guess it was sold because it stopped running, it didn't have enough compression to run, that and the carb was full of fine grit, it was like it was sand blasted, even the valve seats were trashed, I rebuilt it, gained 32cc, and running a pod, K&N style filter, filters are important! Especially if it's a large high revving engine! Flowing alot of air, maybe something similar to a motorcycle filter can be used on the stacks, only much larger, and made like a K&N filter, maybe attach it to the hood, so you see the stack injection when its open!!
Thanks for the IR combo testing, Ive been bugging the EM guys to do this same test.
I was wondering with all the dirt cheap chinese IDF and IDA carbs on the market now how about a test comparing IR FI to IR carb? Hard to beat $300 for 8 throttle plates (4 48mm IDF carbs)!!!
850 double pumper launch at 8000 rpms and take it to 14000 rpms that might work. LOL
So tpi/mpfi will work well if not better than stacks..
think about the intake design
I would like to see you put Weber's on that manifold and see how much HP it would make
Me to
Quadrajet 4 Life !!!!!
Like these test you do on itb stack injection - there's better options for air cleaner you should test like from pipercross and ramair and you still get to show off the stacks :)
Great video, thank you! Well done. I would love to see a dualplane (Performer) with a high-rise dual plane (Performer RPM) with a low profile single plane (Torker II) with a high rise single plane (Victor JR) with a Tunnel Ram. Would the longer runner of the Torker II and Tunnel Ram help boost low-end torque?
Regarding air filter, has anyone ever tried to compare no filter vs using one of the sprint car filters? Its the tall rectangle filter fits right over the stacks.
Please could you compare carb filters with regard to stock vs. round filter with a filtered top hat?? I have either read or saw a video that the filtered top hats or covers allows straight in air flow that results in more power. Also, did you filter the cab air in your tests (i missed that part of the discussion)?
Stacks =awesome respond
OK RICHARD ALOT OF THE GUYS WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOU GET A SPEEDMASTER 351W BLOCK AND PUT BOOST,NITRIOS AND NATURAL ASSPERATED THROUGH A MEAN TEST AND SEE IF ITS WORTH IT THANKS BUD
I ran one of those already
this high dollar stuff looks great but makes NO sense for a street driven engine that is going to see any normal daily use. Looks good but just does not make sense for most folks
If you put a big air cleaner on the carburetor it would also lose some power. I'm guessing the spread would again be about fifteen horsepower compared to the filtered individual runner stacks.
the air cleaner on the carb motor can actually help
@@richardholdener1727 I think it's time for a test. While the base helps direct air toward the carburetor, the filter element is a restriction.
I talk to myself, and answer because ...
I only want to talk to intelligent people, and I only want to hear intelligent people speak.😁👍
The math says 350cid @ 6100RPM = 617.7662037037037037037037037037CFM
That's not to say that a 750 wouldn't help eke out a little more at the top end, just by virtue of not operating at ~95% of rated flow.....80% comes around 5100RPM, 90% near 5800 on a 650
What's it like to run power adders. Say nitrous and is it possible to run boost through them?
its fantastic to run power adders
@@richardholdener1727 Cool I've never seen anyone dive into and explain it the way you do. Could you please do a nitrous comparison with the carb vs the stack?
you should do a carbureted air cleaner test as well to see how much of a difference small vs larger air cleaners vs no air cleaner, i guess also for a FI motor would be useful
not surprised at all. another great comparison !!!
Form follows function . You get more power from multi port , for racing fine , with filters for street use not so much , and now the cost .
So basically you said the 750 carb would have made more power.
A 750 WOULD MAKE THE SAME MORE THAN LIKELY
Your missing the point, the added cfm of stack inj added power, the screens to it back to the 650cfm power..
So... The 750 would have made close to the 400hp the injection did without the screens...
Love your vids man. I have 3 questions. First, whats the driveability like on these electronic Holborn setups. Second, does adding plenum volume on the bottom side of the throttle plate increase performance in any way. Also, does a narrower plenum increase low end power, similar to runners in a head
driveabilty is a function of tune-it can be jumpy from having so much throttle opening, not sure how you add plenum volume below the throttle plates on an IR system, no on the plenum question
Was the carb run with an air cleaner? Seems a bit unfair to handicap the stacks and not the carb.
the air cleaner assembly on the carb can actually help
@@richardholdener1727 wow that's counterintuitive. My quick google and youtube search didnt dig anything up. Do you know if it's slight air fuel adjustment from pressure drop, more laminar flow into the carb, or something crazy like intake pulses seeing distance to the filter as runner length. Thanks for shareing you knowledge.
Don't forget all of the crazy high-tech carburetors like catalytic carburetors, feedback carburetors, constant vacuum carburetors, etc...
The only hitech carb is a lectron
I had 3 two barrel side draft Webbers on a Z car with velocity stacks, fuel economy was not good but they sounded great and the engine loved to rev.
What was the vacuum reading at loaded peak torque, 650 carb vs ITB?
Long tube spacers to bring torque harmonic down to lower speed driving range
Sweet. I’m putting a mechanical Hilborn 8 stack on a 598 BBC
any chance you have a comparison between distributor and ls coils on sbc
there would likely be no change unless you cured a misfire
i just purchased the streetmaster stack EFI kit and they dont come with injectors...and cust serv is useless...can you tell me what injectors you are running in this setup...thanks
Did you do a test with a filter on the carburettor
It lost no power
What efi system did you use for the stack efi? Fast? Holley hp?
holley
Hey Richard , love your videos. i am actually dealing with one of these setups run by a FAST XFi setup and need to sinc the throttle blades. any tips would be great but i honestly hope i get them sorted before i see your reply. i will just apply your tips to the next set up. Thanks great video.
we use a unisync
Now do 4 down or side draft Webers 🤯 And when you yet to the Ford the unicorn of carbs. The Autolite inline 4 bbl
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
Autolite inline 4-barrels are wicked.
I have a test up on the Autolite
Those inline Autolite carbs worked really well with the better airflow and mixture distribution - until the cars went into a corner (they were born back in Trans Am racing days) - and for some reason Ford abandoned them instead of working out the fuel slosh problem.
@@Motor-City-Mike
The fact that the SCCA disallowed them for Trans Am use didn't help. And as I understand it the whole point of the inline carb was runner optimization with the spacing on the carb matching the intake port spacing on the Boss 302 heads. When these showed up at the start of the 70 season the SCCA had instituted a rules change for A Sedan (the basis for Trans Am) that disallowed multiple carburation.
Have you made any videos on the magnum 5.9
not yet
How.bad would it be to not have filters
longevity
Can you do kinzler staggered stack injection on a bbchevy ?
lets say you already have a sbchevy with a well sorted 4barrel and dual plane, now if you go with a set up like this refi stack injection what kind of gas mileage would it deliver compared to the dual plane? would it be worth it?
stacks don't deliver milage
I wonder what constant velocity stacks would do, as they automatically adjust.
I run a 400 CFM Holley on a 440 Chrysler motor and it's more than enough by the way that's Factory
Have you tried better induction, if not, how do you know its more than enuf ? At 6,000rpm the engine need approx 752 CFM, 400cfm is fine if its a car Miss Daisy travels in
@@davidwarland2680 it is a little Miss Daisy car but like I said it's a 400 CFM and it runs like an angel some of us believe in not working on a car all the time. Drop the mic
SEE YA
@@michaelperham694 lol ok, sweet deal, underpowered nothing that runs erm fine lol, yea copy that.