Carburetor Confusion! What's the Best Setup? | Engine Masters | MotorTrend

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  • Опубліковано 16 лис 2024
  • This test is all about choosing the features you want and need on your carburetor, and how those features affect your horsepower and tunability. Do mechanical secondaries really make any more power than vacuum-power ones? Does a choke horn restrict inlet airflow?
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КОМЕНТАРІ • 421

  • @williepelzer384
    @williepelzer384 Рік тому +42

    What cracks me up is my buddies and me figured most of all this stuff , you guys talk about and test on all your shows. In the late 60s early 70s. All of use trying different things the hard way , racing each other, one step at a time. the drag strip times was our dynamometer. Really miss those times,we still talk about them, those of us still alive😢

    • @BruceLee-xn3nn
      @BruceLee-xn3nn 9 місяців тому +3

      It was all trial and error back then.

    • @NewEngland462
      @NewEngland462 7 місяців тому +3

      Strip tells the real story.

  • @CarsandCats
    @CarsandCats 2 роки тому +142

    Street gearing and an automatic trans with a near stock converter: Vacuum secondaries. Everything else, double pumpers. I've been building carbs for 40 years.

    • @karenthomson9749
      @karenthomson9749 Рік тому +13

      We all believe you bro.

    • @KingJT80
      @KingJT80 Рік тому +16

      @@karenthomson9749 hes not wrong tho. double pumpers are great but vac secondary has its place too

    • @EviLWeazL
      @EviLWeazL Рік тому +2

      I'm diamond 1

    • @C.V._McCullar
      @C.V._McCullar Рік тому +7

      Vacuum secondary is fine for mild street applications, but the lag is a killer in racing.

    • @Pilotlight26
      @Pilotlight26 Рік тому +7

      Unless your spending the majority of your time above 5k, go vacuum secondary

  • @NGH99999
    @NGH99999 2 роки тому +32

    I really, really love this series. Excellent, useful, rigorous info, presented directly and to-the-point. Well done.

  • @chrishart2064
    @chrishart2064 Рік тому +10

    You guys have the best show hands down. Great information, knowledgeable hosts and very entertaining! Keep up the great work.

  • @rogermason5833
    @rogermason5833 2 роки тому +37

    What about comparison of the A/F curves between carbs? I was expecting to see that presented as the punchline.

    • @KingJT80
      @KingJT80 2 роки тому +2

      well yeah its gonna be different in that no choke brawler that the vac secondary version.

    • @rogermason5833
      @rogermason5833 2 роки тому +6

      @@KingJT80 Yes, I was expecting them to say that the HP difference was related to A/F ratio differences but that did not happen. They showed there was no difference in actual airflow, so I was left wondering what was the real reason for the significant HP difference.

    • @KingJT80
      @KingJT80 2 роки тому +1

      @@rogermason5833 well they did mess around with the jets too off camera. Vac secondary couldn't make more power

    • @tomhutchins1046
      @tomhutchins1046 Рік тому

      The flow meter there using is not very accurate and even consistent, if it was it would be used as a flow bench

    • @smoberley
      @smoberley Рік тому +6

      It would seem to stand to reason that if the airflow is the same and the fuel flow is different between carbs, the air/fuel ratio is going to be different. Which begs the question of how much and how much difference the different ratio makes. It's a really odd thing to completely ignore in the video.

  • @toguro1009
    @toguro1009 2 роки тому +5

    I’ve always been a fan of the tri-power setup.

  • @davidwoods8982
    @davidwoods8982 2 роки тому +4

    Great information. I had those same questions and, I agree with your answers!
    The only other difference that you qualified in the beginning is, that (I.e.)a 750 carburetor would be the Minimum that carburetor would flow. It could actually flow much more in a given throttle body.
    Great job gentleman!!

  • @Cravz69
    @Cravz69 Рік тому +4

    Great job as always, just converted to a choke-less carburetor recently, glad to see, there should be a little bit of a gain!

  • @jeremypike9153
    @jeremypike9153 2 роки тому +44

    The double pumper is always the way to go if you're willing to put the time into tuning it

    • @hectorortega9131
      @hectorortega9131 Рік тому +2

      Agreed .

    • @SOLDOZER
      @SOLDOZER Рік тому +3

      Double pumper waste of time for street application.

    • @kenneth9874
      @kenneth9874 Рік тому

      @@SOLDOZER depends on the combination

  • @burt1758
    @burt1758 Рік тому +2

    Very informative. I'll always use carb. Had a van burn up because an o ring on injector leaked. You never know when they go.

  • @wintonhudelson2252
    @wintonhudelson2252 2 роки тому +9

    I enjoy the stellar information and the banter. You guys are great.

  • @backyardhotrods9885
    @backyardhotrods9885 2 роки тому +17

    would of been nice to see air fuel ratios of the double pumper to the vac. secondary carb. Great info to see though! Love my double pumper on my Cuda!

    • @astrawally8448
      @astrawally8448 Рік тому

      This. The primaries are working a lot harder/likely not metering as well as the secondary in the vac carb. I am guessing proper jetting would even these carbs up but ultimately the DP would be making more horses. Have a look at the secondary butterflies on a dyno engine you will see how they open/close depending upon vacuum and the diaphragm/spring setup.

  • @mikejohns3104
    @mikejohns3104 2 роки тому +12

    These are thing I struggled with early on. Eventually I ran Choke carb tuned for winter. Then a different choke horn delete (sawed off and polished away) carb tuned for summer. This was before you could get a "race" carb with that done already. The double pumper horn delete was for summer. Vac sec for winter. They ran the same in the environments they were tuned for. Nobody knew.

    • @KingJT80
      @KingJT80 Рік тому +1

      or,
      now you can get a chokeless carb with vacuum secondaries!!

    • @BruceLee-xn3nn
      @BruceLee-xn3nn 9 місяців тому +1

      I had a 62 nova straight 6 that in winter or summer pump twice and she'd start and idle no chock. With engine hot just turn the key. That car would idle all day and not skip a beat, smoothest carbureted vehicle I've ever had.

  • @steveschulz7824
    @steveschulz7824 2 роки тому +6

    The double pumper had the advantage of the air hat. You got the results you wanted by giving the DP straighter air flow.

    • @habsfan8681
      @habsfan8681 Рік тому +5

      My thoughts exactly. Air probably had higher velocity before entering the dp carb than it did with the vacuum secondary carb without the air hat. Like the old school velocity stacks, or Weber 8 stack system.

  • @dougpendleton1266
    @dougpendleton1266 2 роки тому +4

    Glad to see my predisposition validated!!!😁

  • @firstielasty1162
    @firstielasty1162 Рік тому +16

    If the double pumper is adding more fuel (via siphoning through the a/p discharge nozzles) to the same air volume, the mixture is richer. Why not enlarge either the main jets or the power valve restriction in the vacuum secondary carb to achieve the same fuel/air ratio?

    • @ChronoTango
      @ChronoTango Рік тому +1

      While that would have been worth testing, it seems their criteria at the onset was to test apples to apples from the factory instead of fiddling with them whatsoever. I bet you could compensate a bit for what the vacuum one lacks in and probably pretty easily so it’s disappointing they didn’t test for that.

    • @stevejewell9263
      @stevejewell9263 10 місяців тому +2

      The problem is distribution in the Vacuum Carb vs the DP. It's more than just the volume of fuel added by the siphoning. It's also distribution. You've got 4 separate barrels in both carbs. All the same size and physically in the same spot geographically speaking on the manifold to which they are bolted. This is where the similarity ends though. While air flow is the same in both the ability to atomize and mix fuel is different. ALL THE FUEL supplied in the two primary barrels of the Vac Carb must mix with air supplied by all 4 individual barrels of the carb. The front two will supply a little bit richer mix to the cylinders supplied most by the air coming from the front of the carb and the cylinders mostly supplied by the rear bowls will be just a tad leaner. It's a trade off you accept for the drivability on the street. The mechanical carb supplies fuel to each of all 4 barrels and this no doubt gets you a much more even distribution of air and fuel both to every cylinder.....while not perfectly even you can bet it's far closer to even than the Vacuum carb will ever be capable of. As Steve B points out: you could richen up the primary circuit of the Vac carb but you'd lose all you drivability in the attempt and it still wouldn't work as well because while you may actually resolve "lean" in some cylinders it'll almost for sure enrich, past ideal, in those that were properly supplied before you richened up the primaries. Bottom line: This is why computer controlled injectors above each cylinder are how it's done on modern engines. With a Carb you can't have both. You gotta pick. Street or Strip one carb is going to be vastly superior to the other depending on your priorities. The vac carb can't match the WOT performance of the Mechanical and of the flip side the Mechanical will never be able to match the street manners of the Vacuum Carb. You gotta know which is more important to you ahead of time.

  • @transmissionman9377
    @transmissionman9377 2 роки тому +6

    I love this show, there needs to be more of it!

  • @SgtStedenko1
    @SgtStedenko1 2 роки тому +4

    I use a Quickfuel brawler 850 DP.on my Mopar 500 inch low deck with ported heads...it's also equipped with a ed's Victor single plane intake. I think this setup is bait for a dual feed carb! A vac sec carb can work it's just doesn't have the fuel curve of the DP...also Thompson perf atomizer plates on both ends of the dual feed carb really help in low end torque

  • @badgerbait8351
    @badgerbait8351 2 роки тому +4

    First, your shows are so therapeutic! Thanks! Anyway, was wondering how much of a difference a drop-base air cleaner would have made in these tests...especially with the choke horn?!

  • @georgepaust8416
    @georgepaust8416 Рік тому +1

    The dyno numbers are impressive, but it really comes down to seat of the pants results. In my 69 big block Chevelle, vacuum secondaries with a 4-speed and 3.73 gears always gave me steady consistent launches. Switching to a double pumper carb, I only got good throttle response when I switched to a 4.56 rear gear. On the street, the launch was everything! Stop light to stop light never allows you to reach the upper power band. Street tires and the street itself were always the limiting factors as well as local law enforcement.

  • @fredlogan3849
    @fredlogan3849 2 роки тому +8

    its not enough deference in power to make it worthwhile, I ran a vacuum 780 cfm on a super comp dragster 355 ci with horn still in place worked great interesting listening to it coming up on the brake. what shows up on the dyno is not always track information. thank you love the videos.

    • @KingJT80
      @KingJT80 Рік тому

      that 491 vs 514 is basically you saying you have a 500 HP small block as opposed to to saying yeah it makes almost 500 thats kinda a big difference. if i ran a mechanical secondary on the street (which i might still do) id run a choke. that i do agree theres no real difference vs running a true chokeless race carb even if it's the summer. 780cfm on 355 inches can and should run over 7000 RPM

    • @bradgriffith4231
      @bradgriffith4231 Рік тому

      23 PEAK HP difference on this test is almost a 5% increase, & the double pumper made more torque & HP from just below the test starting RPM all the way to max RPM. That's a pretty substantial difference. Double pumpers have zero disadvantage, "when properly tuned". I've always run them, since 1971 & never had a problem, even in cold weather, without having or using a choke. My current 750 Street HP on an Edelbrock Air-Gap intake & NO heat riser fires up & immediately idles in summer, takes a couple starts & hold the throttle slightly open in the winter, until the engine builds a little heat. My 500HP, 409ci SBC also gets better fuel economy than my computer controlled FI 2004 Tahoe. But, I will add that I've been tuning carbs for over 50 years & learned some big lessons in the early 80s working on highly tuneable Weber carbs, which the Holley HP series tuning is comparable to with their "air correction" jets!

    • @SOLDOZER
      @SOLDOZER Рік тому

      @@bradgriffith4231 This test was done on an engine dyno. A chassis dyno with full accessories and you will never notice that 23 HP.

    • @bradgriffith4231
      @bradgriffith4231 Рік тому +1

      @@SOLDOZER If you think 5%, or 23 HP isn't noticeable in the vehicle & going down the track, you're very naive or have never raced. Pro Stock guys will spend $10,000 to find 1 or 2 HP with a motor that's already making 1,500 HP! 5% is a BIG pickup! BTW, our ALL MOTOR door slammer has gone 7.97/168 on race gas with 4,000 foot altitude air density, that's 7.70s/172 with 70* sea level air! How's your slug run?

    • @SOLDOZER
      @SOLDOZER Рік тому +4

      @@bradgriffith4231 Nobody is talking about pro stock race cars here. We are talking about weekend cruisers.

  • @ThePaulv12
    @ThePaulv12 2 роки тому +7

    There was one I'd like to see in addition to this - that is how much bigger do you have to go in vac secondary carb size to negate the double pumper advantage?

    • @joshtheking1772
      @joshtheking1772 Рік тому +1

      Why? The HP loss is negligible from a street to strip application. Use what the application calls for.

    • @ThePaulv12
      @ThePaulv12 Рік тому +2

      @@joshtheking1772 Oh I see, because you don't see the need for a test like this then it doesn't need to be done.

    • @lollipop84858
      @lollipop84858 7 годин тому

      ​@@ThePaulv12 maybe instead of relying on free entertainment to do it for you, you should do the test yourself and then enlighten everyone else for free

  • @gmans7859
    @gmans7859 2 роки тому +2

    Thanks You Guys. There is hope getting my 750 Vac secondary no Choke Horn w. Metering Plate/Jets to work better.

  • @gregperrucci36
    @gregperrucci36 2 роки тому +8

    If the vacuum secondary carb flowed less fuel in the secondary, was the AFR leaner? Would increasing the jets help the power?

    • @gregperrucci36
      @gregperrucci36 2 роки тому +2

      @@bigboreracing356 Brawler series does.

    • @hu3.789
      @hu3.789 2 роки тому +4

      @@bigboreracing356 - There are jets in the secondaries. However, there is no accelerator pump.

    • @reason2gether
      @reason2gether 2 роки тому +1

      No. Both carbs would be providing the same air/fuel ratio and adding more fuel to either would just cause an over rich mixture ratio and possibly lose power. The DP carb is pro-active in that it squirts the required amount of fuel into the incoming air ahead of the curve which is why it allows better performance to begin with. The air and fuel enter instantly and are predetermined by tuning. No restriction equals maximum air/fuel inducted into the engine. The vacuum secondary design is a reactive design that restricts the airflow to an always less than maximum so that it can use the throttled engine pressure differential to initiate and maintain fuel flow to match the airflow. This can give good torque and is easier to tune to prevent "bogging" but it comes at the cost of limiting the engine to always less than maximum induction for any given load and RPM condition.

    • @gregperrucci36
      @gregperrucci36 2 роки тому +2

      @@reason2gether you did not watch the video carefully nor do you understand how this works.

    • @gregperrucci36
      @gregperrucci36 2 роки тому +1

      @@bigboreracing356 LOL - still wondering what the AFR differences were.

  • @brentonk461
    @brentonk461 2 роки тому +4

    Well, I'll I've got to say is, Demonstrates what happens to the power if you only know how to bolt shiny things on out the box.

  • @chrisfin1921
    @chrisfin1921 Рік тому +1

    QUESTION ... between the vacuum and mechanical carbs you measured the air volume to be exactly the same and measured the fuel flow to be dramatically different ... especially on the secondary side. You put the difference in fuel delivery down to siphoning fuel thru the discharge nozzle .... which is fine.
    But given that the volume of fuel ingested looks to be around 20+% LESS at some points, surely this would show up a lean condition in air/fuel ratio ???
    So why can't this be tuned out of the vacuum carb ???

  • @antilaw9911
    @antilaw9911 11 місяців тому

    I built street/strip 440 my 66 Belvedere. Had 700 double pumper. I tweaked rebuild thermoquad 850. Boy did that thing run!! Never a hickup or stumble or anything. Ran flawless. Snappy throttle response and would keep pulling hard!! Im a thermoquad believer fanboy totally!

  • @Tk-ou9ec
    @Tk-ou9ec Рік тому

    I have a mild 318 in my Chrysler. Stock heads. 1980 model. It has a mild comp cam 268 h and edelbrock performer intake with an eddy 500 avs carby. Hei ignition with extractors and a full 2.5inch exhaust. Stall converter is a 2300 and diff ratio is 3:45 lsd truetrack.
    I removed the choke butterfly from the front of the carby as this was a restriction and it certainly did make a difference on how it performs. Runs real well. Starts fine with no choke,just got to feather the throttle for maybe 30 seconds then it will idle happily. On the dyno as I had carby professionally tuned,it made 220hp at the tyres. Not massive but very good for what it is. I often wonder how it would change if I was to go for a bigger carby? Like a 650 perhaps? But they cost a lot so I won’t worry about it.
    Great video by the way
    🤘

  • @reason2gether
    @reason2gether 2 роки тому +3

    The test with and without a choke horn is not completely accurate. Both carbs would show improvement with a K&N stub-stack, but the same principle would apply with a proper air cleaner base on either carb. The truth is, if you add a wall entirely around the airhorn that forces the airflow to drop straight down into the airhorn instead of entering from around the sides (as with a flat or non-existent air cleaner base), then the airflow is both better in volume and in flow quality. You can see this principle with your sink at home. With water flowing around the drain from all directions, you will get a "vortex hole" in the middle of the drain's flow. If you force the flow to enter from above , it will eliminate the vortex and allow straight-line flow. We do this with the bottom of the carburetor when we add a spacer. It does not just improve performance strictly because of the added plenum volume that may be needed, but by forcing the air through the carburetor in a straight line for a longer section. The longer the air is flowing straight before and after the carburetor's venturis, the better the flow and volume will be. That is one reason why "tunnel-ram" intake manifolds actually do so well. If the only air cleaner that can fit on your carburetor due to hood clearance issues is a small (less than a 3" tall filter), then the carb with the milled off choke horn is going to work better only because it will allow more airflow into the engine, even though it is a less efficient airflow than optimum. If you can, use a stub stack and a filter element top lid for the best performance. Been there, done that many times.
    The other issue - double pumper vs vac secondary : the double pumper is better designed for performance engines with camshafts for RPM/HP. Once you cross over a certain cam duration (depends on many variables, but usually around 220 degrees) the engine needs fuel added to the airflow instantly to complement the instant airflow allowed by the rapid opening throttle blades. The double pumper is designed to do that and if tuned correctly is basically a mechanical fuel injection system in operation. Vacuum secondaries cannot do this. They are "reactive" to airflow and always lagging behind the airflow curve by design. Great for torque because they constantly "size" themselves just a little smaller than optimum cfm at all engine speed and load ranges. Just not able to give the engine that maximum airflow upon demand instantly as the DP carb can do.

  • @stevecanyon23
    @stevecanyon23 2 роки тому

    Great show, I always enjoy it. Just started rebuilding my 850 double pumper from my 455 Firebird a couple of days ago ...

  • @jerryfarmer5989
    @jerryfarmer5989 2 роки тому +2

    For me, in Colorado, we need choke just nature of the beast. Anyway I firmly believe dbl dumper on the track, spread bore on the street. A vacuum secondary just works better in stop and go driving.

    • @lollipop84858
      @lollipop84858 7 годин тому

      If that's what you think, you're tuning them wrong

  • @Carl_Jr
    @Carl_Jr 2 роки тому +2

    I'll save myself some time by just posting this here instead of going through the comments one by one. This is a condensed version of the actual episode on the MT channel. There is a lot more information and they show a lot more of the processes they do to change the carburetors between runs to ensure the results are on an equal playing field. If you want to see that episode you have to pay to play.

  • @Barnys-speed-shop
    @Barnys-speed-shop 2 роки тому +5

    I'd like to see you guys run tests on different types of air cleaners. Like an open top element, an old paper enclosed stock style, a velocity stack style element and a forced induction carb hat.

    • @livewireblanco
      @livewireblanco 2 роки тому +2

      They did that a few years back.

    • @dakotaautosales9673
      @dakotaautosales9673 2 роки тому +1

      And the paper fram was just as good as the rest lol

    • @dchil15
      @dchil15 2 роки тому +1

      @@dakotaautosales9673 But not as good as the salad bowl

    • @dakotaautosales9673
      @dakotaautosales9673 2 роки тому

      @@dchil15 ???

    • @dchil15
      @dchil15 2 роки тому

      @@dakotaautosales9673 Did you even watch it? They took a salad bowl, cut the bottom out and made hp with it.

  • @jamespatterson9446
    @jamespatterson9446 Рік тому

    You guys could've just made a phone call to AED Performance in Richmond VA and they could've saved you alot of time and explained the difference to you and how and why one would make more power over the other per application. Those guys are very knowledgeable and have been doing this stuff for many years

  • @G12C
    @G12C 2 роки тому

    Best series ever! I miss it from it was here on yt...

  • @bobroberts2371
    @bobroberts2371 2 роки тому +1

    It is possible to get an anti siphon squriter nozzle. These were used on factory emissions era carbs.

  • @francfurian8215
    @francfurian8215 2 роки тому +2

    That was a really useful & interesting comparison. Well done😊

  • @dennisgray7509
    @dennisgray7509 2 роки тому

    Great information! I have to of the same carbs one vacuum and one mechanical. I’m gonna put the mechanical on and try it out

  • @johnsnow1355
    @johnsnow1355 2 роки тому +2

    I went with the mechanical because my motor has less then 10inch of vacuum with the radical cam.

  • @slowvega
    @slowvega 2 роки тому +2

    Great episode guys. Informative as always. Thanks.

  • @RubenEggers
    @RubenEggers 3 місяці тому +1

    I enjoyed this half of a third of an episode.

  • @richardkev3077
    @richardkev3077 Рік тому

    I appreciate all the information. It's fascinating. But I could read results faster. I watch because I love hearing engines pushed against a dyno.

  • @pjnelson8971
    @pjnelson8971 Рік тому +1

    Need to compare manifold vacuum for each run. My guess is that the more restrictive carburetor versions will flow the same amount of air, but at slightly higher vacuum. That higher vacuum would sap some of the potential horsepower.

  • @peterchristlieb
    @peterchristlieb Рік тому +1

    Seems to me you didn’t choose mechanical or vacuum secondaries based on horsepower but more to crutch up gearing for the street, traction issues, drivability and throttle response needs. If the carb is set up right, the accelerator pump is out of play once the pedal is down or you’ve got the wrong nozzle.
    A real 3310 (780 CFM) had different boosters and wasn’t crutched up to work on a small, choked down motor with no signal. They worked good on everything

  • @madrew2003
    @madrew2003 2 роки тому +2

    I had a brand new 3310 vacuum secondary on my mild 383 right up until some chassis dyno time. The shop had a used 650 dbl pumper on the wall and after throwing it on the car I promptly bought it. WAY more stable AFR from the 3310 and I had all the springs and quick change kit. And this was a 3.08 geared, auto, mid 14 sec car.

    • @bradgriffith4231
      @bradgriffith4231 Рік тому

      Dyno "tuning" is a waste of time & $$$$ because there is nothing about the climate conditions or loading on a dyno that actually simulates real world street or track driving. NASCAR engine builders look more a the time it takes to accelerate the engine from bottom "track" RPM to peak RPM rather than peak HP with the load being the simulated vehicle weight & overall gear ratio.

    • @madrew2003
      @madrew2003 Рік тому

      @@bradgriffith4231 guess you ignored the part about AFR jumping all over the place. AFR is AFR. Everything you said may be true but gauge readings are true as well when used comparatively. Clearly one carb was consistent with fuel delivery and one wasn't. Nothing but truth in that observation.

    • @bradgriffith4231
      @bradgriffith4231 Рік тому

      @@madrew2003 Maybe y'all ought to learn how to properly tune a carb if your AFRs were constantly changing. Regardless, dyno tuning is a waste of time & $$$$ because there's nothing a dyno does that remotely resembles real world applications, whether on the street or track. Pro Systems will build & correctly calibrate a carb to perfection & ya won't even have to touch the A/F mixture screws or curb idle speed without even seeing the car, IF ya tell them the truth about your engine specs, vehicle, & altitude where it's normally raced.

    • @madrew2003
      @madrew2003 Рік тому

      @@bradgriffith4231 you sure do like to beat that drum, don't ya? Give it a rest. I use a wideband gauge to tune my carb and the trap speed at the track. Does that make you any less cranky?

  • @user-qr7ee2cp4y
    @user-qr7ee2cp4y Рік тому

    Engine masters breaking more myths! Awesome show, awesome series!

  • @rong4189
    @rong4189 8 місяців тому

    Perfect group of tests for an old KnN Stub Stack. (I dunno if they were any good)

  • @terrysmith8133
    @terrysmith8133 Рік тому +2

    the mech secondary shows more fuel and power over vac sec. can you increase sec jets in vac and make about the same hp as mech?

  • @barrykilts4506
    @barrykilts4506 Рік тому +2

    Hey guys I watched this show on tv last nite and after being up all nite and busy with other things I finally noticed you used 2 different dyno mules not to mention intakes and who knows what all but I wonder if the numbers would have been at least a little closer and why didn’t you do a little tuning on the vac.unit since it came up short cause it was the lesser unit?like I said I was busy so I may have missed something you said but I was paying about 60%.

  • @johnsartelle8320
    @johnsartelle8320 Рік тому +1

    The statement that you can't make the run good everywhere is wrong. It is done regularly, it just takes more time. Statement about better quality of air in regards to choke tower or not, is true. The vacuum secondary carb can also make the same power if calibrated correctly. Just make up for the fuel that is being pulled through the acceleration circuit on the DP.

  • @saab9251
    @saab9251 2 роки тому +4

    I daily drove a 650 double pumper for a year and a half with the choke horns milled off and it never once gave me a problem as long as I drove it at least every other day even in the winter. I highly prefer how they drive with a manual over a vacuum secondary, but that’s my preference.

    • @Ratridez
      @Ratridez Рік тому

      Same here I ran a 600 dp on a mild 360 automatic , it ran flawless .

  • @jamesirving1085
    @jamesirving1085 Рік тому +1

    Wonder if jetting the primaries and/or going up on the secondary metering block would bring it closer the double pumper

  • @johnbehneman1546
    @johnbehneman1546 2 роки тому

    THANK YOU SO MUCH. I LOVE TO LEARN ABOUT CARBURETORS!!! SO MUCH FUN!!! GREAT VIDEO AND THANKS FOR SHARING!!!! I LEARNED SO MUCH!!!!!

  • @pinkysgarage4517
    @pinkysgarage4517 2 роки тому +4

    Are you saying you couldn't increase the secondary jetting to help the secondaries flow more fuel?
    Odd that you didn't try that.
    I must be missing something.

    • @prestonrieger8410
      @prestonrieger8410 Рік тому

      @pinkysgarage4517 there’s a lot more to this episode, this is just the highlights. Use the app, watch the episode. The AFR’s were very close, the difference in fuel flow has to do with the quality of airflow. Bottom line, if you’re wide open all the time, a DP makes more power.

  • @HeadFlowInc
    @HeadFlowInc Рік тому

    The VS Brawler needs a “White” secondary actuation spring in the pod. Also the brawler should be tuned via jetting and air bleeds to compete more accurately/similarly.
    So this test needs to be clarified “Out of the Box” comparison only.

  • @VernDecoste
    @VernDecoste 10 місяців тому +1

    Ok so what if you have a vacuum secondary carb with a metering block were you can change jets and give it more fuel on the secondary side?

  • @Mr1Tanker
    @Mr1Tanker Рік тому +1

    Now for what the dyno doesn't show....throttle response (not an issue in race applications, but crucial on the street).

  • @wayneadams7829
    @wayneadams7829 Рік тому +2

    Like any great engine builder will say, fuel injection is for fuel mileage, carburetors are for horsepower.

  • @mrivantchernegovski3869
    @mrivantchernegovski3869 2 роки тому

    When I was a kid ,dad pulled the choke blades out of some carbie he had on a 350 Chev.ever since then iv pulled out choke blades on single barrel strombergs,twin barrel webers and on and on until I figured out how to zip tie Rochester primary to the secondaries links all barrels at once lol .Now im tuning Nissan RB motors with a lap top here in New Zealand

  • @icetech6
    @icetech6 Рік тому +2

    I don't get something though.. the Vacuum carb is flowing less fuel, couldn't you just jet up the rear jets and make it make the same power and give you the vacuum secondaries if you want them?

  • @kalli71
    @kalli71 10 місяців тому +2

    would you not test the vacuum secondary with the secondaries jetted up? the hypothesis being that it should then match the fuel delivery of the mechanical secondary. maybe this way you get the better of both worlds?

    • @superfuntime3107
      @superfuntime3107 10 місяців тому +1

      Right...Like was mentioned the air velocity draws fuel from the accelerator pump discharge nozzles / circuit once the throttle blades are fully opened. They continue to flow fuel. I have seen that occurring on camera footage before of carburetors running on a dyno. One of these days i'm going to mount my go pro under my hood to see what goes on. I've spent a lot of time tuning my junk using both vacuum secondary and double pumper carburetors.
      Story.
      One tuning session after I put my AFR gauge in the car I was working with different power valves. Changing different ones in and out for hours. Driving and observing. Nothing was effecting the readings. I took off the front bowl and metering block again...I was starring at the metering block. Looking at it in disbelief. Just starring for like five minutes. When I saw what the problem was.
      Holley did not drill the power valve channel restriction holes in the metering block !
      DUH !

    • @mickangio16
      @mickangio16 8 місяців тому

      ​@@superfuntime3107 ohh, boy😡

  • @milojanis4901
    @milojanis4901 Рік тому +2

    Would've been nice to know the cfm rating and the engines CID

  • @mattbauckman9907
    @mattbauckman9907 2 роки тому +2

    Oversized Holly carbs almost ALWAYS make more power ON A DYNO. In fact, often times they even out perform fuel injection. This has prompted every car guy on the planet to put a 1050 cfm dominator on their 283 small block. Unless you are on the track you are NOT driving wot at 7000 rpm and you’re killing power everywhere else. I’ll stick to my slightly under sized vacuum secondary carbs for superior driveability and power under the peak rpm. For me it’s all about excellent fuel signal ratio.

    • @KingJT80
      @KingJT80 2 роки тому +1

      he did say that these types of carbs are sized to the application and RPM range
      bet if that vac secondary was an 850 then thered be a different story. mech secondaries USUALLY dont like being oversized like you say

  • @reginofung6028
    @reginofung6028 2 роки тому +2

    I used to run a 454 with a Holley 850 with a Stub Stack on. I did The same with a 1050 dominador. Although i never knew if that would increase HP and torque.

  • @johnbecay3859
    @johnbecay3859 Рік тому +2

    the double pumper will also yank your car off the line better because of its near instantaneous hit when whacked wide open.

  • @RandySchartiger
    @RandySchartiger 2 роки тому +1

    TECH TIP: tell Brule instead of highlighting the file he wants to open and then clicking the "open" button to just quickly double click the file he wants opened, over a life time this will save him YEARS! ;)

    • @Bloodcurling
      @Bloodcurling 2 роки тому

      I worked with an old guy and when going over drawings he always traversed the whole file path.
      I showed him in file explorer how to set up the shortcut in the menu so he could directly jump to project to project instead of traversing from the root drive. I come back to him later and he is doing it the same way without using the shortcut, he said he's just used to it, he's wasting more than years

    • @lalnablehector1285
      @lalnablehector1285 Рік тому

      its best not to try and correct someones routine in that sorta thing

  • @johndowling6131
    @johndowling6131 Рік тому

    Patrick with PRO Systems can make them work across the band for sure! I've never had an engine run better with any other Carb

  • @TheMrDarius
    @TheMrDarius Рік тому

    You guys should test out a Weber carburetor setup on a big block. Tune each cylinder and optimize it

  • @keithsmith9889
    @keithsmith9889 2 місяці тому

    I love this can we expand this? LIKE GIANT 4BARREL VS DUAL QUADS VS 6 PACK.??? DI MORE CARBS = MORE POWER?

  • @davidrfowler6432
    @davidrfowler6432 Рік тому +1

    hey you 2 , how about a dyno run utilizing a correctly cfm rated carb with the exactly correctly rated primary and seconday jets on a 2 barrel then 4 barrel carb

  • @kylemilligan752
    @kylemilligan752 2 роки тому +6

    You guys need to spend more time explaining the fine details on the vac vs mech secondary test. On the surface it sounds alot like marketing for Holley selling more mech sec carbs. Hey, wait, how much $ does Holley pay you guys in advertising?

    • @mickangio16
      @mickangio16 2 роки тому

      I hit the thumbs up button several times but it only scores once👍

    • @tomcoon9038
      @tomcoon9038 2 роки тому +1

      @@mickangio16 I got your back

  • @bradmcgrath358
    @bradmcgrath358 Рік тому +2

    If Vac vs double pump had the same air flow, and HP vs choke horn had the same air flow, how did you guys come up with two different reasons for the power differences. and why if with the Vac vs DP if your theory of fuel volume is correct, could you not just jet the Vac carb to match the fuel delivery?

    • @mickangio16
      @mickangio16 6 місяців тому

      Because they want to help Holley sell their more expensive products for their own gain.

  • @apachebill
    @apachebill Рік тому

    Love my Holley Street HP 750. Best carb I’ve ever owned, bar none!

  • @RodeoRanger
    @RodeoRanger 10 місяців тому

    I run a Holley 670 avenger on my 428 C.I. Mild cam street Engine. It works perfect for me. A Holley Avenger Carburetor is a type of performance carburetor that is designed for street and off-road use. It is not a double pumper, which is a term used for Holley carburetors that have two accelerator pumps. A double pumper carburetor is more suited for racing applications, while an avenger carburetor is more user-friendly and adaptable to different driving conditions. Most people are non racers.

    • @mickangio16
      @mickangio16 8 місяців тому

      Aside from maybe being a bit on the small size for your engine, it CAN be tuned for serious performance and still get decent fuel economy.

  • @zAvAvAz
    @zAvAvAz 7 місяців тому

    Dual circuit Dominator 1050 cfm'er. = +4 mpg over dialed in 4150. Had 11 mpg with 4150. Now has 15mpg with dominator. Chevy Nova.

  • @chrisrobertson1929
    @chrisrobertson1929 Рік тому

    I wish they would do a Holley vs predator ..I ran every carb possible..not newer than 1997 the predator was wild responsive

  • @2mechjet
    @2mechjet Рік тому +1

    Should have added 85-0200 K&N STUBSTACK AIR HORN to the test

  • @DinosaurJuiceCars
    @DinosaurJuiceCars 2 роки тому +1

    Would have liked to see Weber carbs on this

  • @jeffrey4547
    @jeffrey4547 Рік тому

    have u ever ported the cam bearings to get a bigger cam in a sbc or season a block or polished the inside of the block for faster oil drop or put over sized cylinders in a sbc or use aluminum titanium alloy rods or balance all the parts rods pistons so on then balance the piston and rods to the counter weights then balance the crank with fly wheel and balancer. u guys should try this it will do insane rpms if u try this port all the ports oil water so on then port the heads open up the intake ports and match the new intake ports to the heads but u will need to go bigger on the cam so u will have to go over sized bearing on the cam when we did it back in eary 90's the custom roller cam just the cam was over 1000 bucks and u will need titanium locks on the valves. we did this to a 327 i helped but bell blue printed and built the engine he also went with tunnel ram with 13.5 to 1 compression for pump gas only 92

  • @charlesespenshade
    @charlesespenshade Рік тому

    I will say also I have a Bugcatcher scoop sticking out the hood so clean cool air is going into the motor going down the road.

  • @chrisanderson6837
    @chrisanderson6837 Рік тому

    Such a good show my wife doesn’t agree but she sits there while I watch loved the 6bbl vs hemi. Have had both. Hemi looks better but my 440 on the street is better

  • @maxhames499
    @maxhames499 2 роки тому +1

    But on the track I make better times with the vacuum secondary.

  • @forcedinduction2356
    @forcedinduction2356 2 роки тому +2

    Can you guys do an episode on the infamous bbc oval port head using rectangular port intake.
    If there’s a hp lost or gain over oval port intake @enginemasters

    • @billnottbusch6581
      @billnottbusch6581 Рік тому

      Back about 20 years ago a tech writer for Hot Boat magazine recommended this. Had an in depth explanation with diagrams on why it would work. I wondered if it really did.

  • @peep39
    @peep39 Рік тому

    i'm with these guys in the opening comments. I had an AFB on my slant six

  • @stevenshepherd1905
    @stevenshepherd1905 2 роки тому +3

    Did the vacuum secondary carb have a metering block?

    • @tomcoon9038
      @tomcoon9038 2 роки тому

      If it's a 3310 then no. They had plates.

    • @mickangio16
      @mickangio16 8 місяців тому

      ​@@tomcoon9038 The original 3310/780cfm/4150 carbs did have metering blocks with changeable jets, though, and had better downleg boosters. The later ones were rated 750cfm due to using straight leg boosters slightly restricting airflow and used a metering plate instead of the metering block making it a 4160 type carb. The 4160/750s are good carbs, too, if you know what to do with them. Quality control in recent years isn't so great, though, and parts such as linkages snap instead of bend when you attempt to adjust them.

  • @coldgold49
    @coldgold49 Рік тому

    You should set up a Schlieren optics in front of the carb to see the flow of air difference.

  • @kmrumedy
    @kmrumedy Рік тому

    This knowledge base is the automotive equivalent of what you would find studying with university masters professor.

  • @bradc32
    @bradc32 2 роки тому +1

    would be cool to see what a hood air scoop would do for the carbs...great job by the way

  • @SuperOperator4
    @SuperOperator4 2 роки тому

    I was very disappointed at the end of the video......because it ended! MORE!!!!!!!!

  • @dj13yrs1
    @dj13yrs1 2 роки тому +1

    I want to see the delayed vs progressive secondary comparison on the race style carb or both the race style or smooth top double pumper for that matter also maybe a vacuum secondary Holley vs Edelbrock Maybe with lower rpm starting points..

    • @tomhutchins1046
      @tomhutchins1046 Рік тому

      The Holley will kill the carter afb knock off (Edelbrock) for power. Fist thing that will happen is fuel starvation due to the small bowels and low flow needles. And how about that 1940"s designed Accelerator pump on the AFB. The only advantage the AFB has is no gaskets below the fuel level so they can be more reliable in daily driving sometimes

  • @baronpermenter2485
    @baronpermenter2485 Рік тому

    Can you guys do a test on the Holley 750 Double Pumper vs 750 HP Double Pumper vs 750 Holley Dominator?

  • @chevacamaro68
    @chevacamaro68 Рік тому +1

    I´d like ro know if the AFR was the same. If it´s "leaking" through the acc pump but the airflow is the same the dp should be a bit richer, meaning the jetting the vacuum carb should put out the same power. Yes?

    • @chrisfin1921
      @chrisfin1921 Рік тому +2

      Exactly ... just asked that question, then thought I'd read some comments and see if anyone else picked up on that .... several have.

    • @mickangio16
      @mickangio16 8 місяців тому

      AND it only makes sense to me that purposely enriched mixture through a metering circuit designed for the job and dispersed through the booster to atomize correctly would be better and more consistent than fuel "accidentally" admitted into the airstream through the accelerator pump squirter😵‍💫

  • @douggreenway2579
    @douggreenway2579 Рік тому

    The difference from the vacuum secondary also is no back metering block and the four corner idle. Metering block possibly adding more fuel for the secondary system??

  • @vega660-newchannel5
    @vega660-newchannel5 2 роки тому

    quadrajet, my 77 delta 88 never fails. one pump and it fires up, runs right out the gate even on cold mornings.

  • @4speed3pedals
    @4speed3pedals Рік тому

    Air filters are offered in different heights from K&N. I wonder how much taller the filter has to be to eliminate the drop in hosrepower?

  • @Alfonxo454ss
    @Alfonxo454ss 2 роки тому +2

    You guys are amazing 🙌🏻

  • @robertbaker837
    @robertbaker837 Рік тому

    Wish someone would cover the edlebrock/carters. I know they suck but that’s what fits on a duel quad 409 and I’ve never been able to get them to run right.

  • @scotthultin7769
    @scotthultin7769 Рік тому

    Using the double pumper when you floor it both throttle plates are open so there's more fuel available for the engine to use

  • @motorcitybuds2117
    @motorcitybuds2117 Рік тому +1

    I have a Chevy 350 two bolt main. Headers and bored over 30.. what would be the best carburetor for this combination? Street car.. but I want a lot of torque and horsepower.

    • @blt4085
      @blt4085 3 місяці тому

      670 holley street avenger

  • @brunsy1990
    @brunsy1990 2 роки тому

    Would love to see yas do a vintage 6cyl shootout, would love to see yas one up powernation.