I cannot believe a driving instructor is feeding such nonsence to vulnerable drivers. There is no evidence anywhere in any UK book on driving rules and law to back him up. Theres so much misinformation in circulating on driving. Jesus help upcoming drivers.
@JamesSimpkinsADI. Can you please send us and all who diagree with you a ligit link that proves what you said anout a slingshot being Careless Driving or any of its subsections. Thanks
The Highway Code explains the procedure that you should follow if you wish to take an exit to the left at a roundabout in Section 4. It does not include the slingshot manoeuvre as a means for making a left turn. I'm sure that you understand why not following the "should / do" rules in the Highway Code means risking a prosecution but if you do not, then you need to do more research.
@@richardsutton01 There is nothing that says doing complete circle around a roundabout to take a left exit is risking any prosecution. If you can find something that clearly states it is taking a risk then please show me.
@@DaronOHare There is also nothing to say that getting out of your car and dancing a merry jig on the roof dressed as Father Christmas whilst stuck in a traffic jam is risking a prosecution or, a less seasonal example, that driving everywhere in reverse is risking a prosecution, so why not give these two a go? 🤣 Surely your understanding of the Highway Code and it's applicability to UK driving regulations must be better than this Daron? If it is not, then can I respectfully suggest that you might wish to surrender your driving licence? Merry Christmas.
@@DaronOHare So do you think that driving everywhere in reverse carries no risk of prosecution? A YES or NO answer is all we need. (Don't forget that there is nothing in the Highway Code which says that you risk a prosecution for permo-reversing 🤣)
I've done it once accidentally on a roundabout somewhere near Bolton. Two lanes approached the roundabout and I didn't realise that the left hand lane on the approach was also the lane for the 2nd turn off, just past the 12 o'clock. It was only when I got to the roundabout did I then realise that everyone in the left hand lane was going straight on and that the 2nd lane didn't. So I had to slingshot it. I assume I had missed the lane signage in the lead up to the roundabout. However, my father in law, who is a driving instructor local to the area, and who was following me made the point of asking me when we got back to their home about that roundabout. He mentioned that unless you had driven that way before (which I never had) then you have no way of knowing the lane you need to be in as you approach that roundabout.
@@brianmooreshead exactly that, and if it’s not congested you’d definitely be fine. Even in that case I’m sure a conversation with any officer that pulled you would easily sort that out.
Wow, I just had this channel recommended to me today. What a super interesting topic of discussion, most divisive! I admit to having performed this particular maneuver on the rare occasion myself. It was only done because of my unfamiliarity with the junction I found myself in and each of the times I tried to change lane back to lane 1 for the 1st exit, I was blocked by people closing down gaps, so rather than sit stationary, blocking lane 2 with my indicator on indefintely, I decided it was simply easier for everyone and best for traffic flow to proceed on and simply go all the way round. I'm not in the habbit of doing it so simply avoid queuing. _*I have noted plenty of well known courier vans doing it though as they believe in saving every prescious miniute to get you that delivery on time! *_
I’ve got confused, left on an exit that wasn’t the one intended, stopped, looked at the map and tried the island again. I’ve never thought of slingshot before though. The only reason why there would be slingshot police is if there had been a reason for them to be there and a reason for a blocked exit. Well now I know the dark side.
There is a roundabout just of from my work depot and turning right was backed up due to temporary lights. Because I couldn't go I waited behind the line only to find two colleagues jump me from the left lane to park on the back side of the roundabout. That was sort of fine until a big 44ft artic wanted to come from the right and turn right themselves. Nearly wrote both cars off. Second day it happened I went straight on, took a massive 3 mile diversion and ended up back on my route no later than I would have been if I'd waited for the lights.
"inconsiderate driving", rubbish, that would never get to court, simply unable to prove the drivers intention which could simply be "I changed my mind about where I was going"
@stevenpremmel4116 Which can be refused and the option of court. There's nothing different about this and a zip merge, except for a 360 at the end! Nothing illegal, no offence, anyone claiming to have been charged clearly failed to use the law to their defence.
Hi D J Taylor tube, I am sorry to tell you that you got the wrong end of that stick!, considerate is an active verb and has no respect for intention!, one is or is not considerate according to the reasonable judgement of reasonable people given all the relevant facts of the actual physical situation, it is a methodological process the leads to a judgement based on consensus not law. Cheers, Richard.
keep in mind also, approach a roundabout in the wrong lane, for whatever reason, you have basically three choices: 1, signal to change lane and stop until there is a gap - blocking the lane for a while until someone lets you in 2, get to the roundabout and turn left from another lane, potentially cutting across people - we have all seen the dash cam videos on how that can end 3, go right around and then take the required exit which of these causes the least disruption to other traffic? as for "gaining an advantage", so say I see the road is busy and I move to a side street and go a different way? have I "gained an advantage"? _its not a race, drivers are not in competition with each other_
Yes they are competing - it is an example of _the Tragedy of the Commons_ ; the resource in this case being the carriageway. Acting in the selfish way worsens everybody else's access to the resource.
@@Tailspin80 if you have a sat nav set up thats fine, part of the issue is the things not always telling you what lane to be in in the first place, valid option - again depends where you are of course as that could add miles to a trip where as circulating doesn't - further point, this is less of a problem on larger roundabouts - say motorway junctions and similar sized ones than small ones that have a few flowerpots in the middle
@ All good points and HC rule 188 says Avoid making U-turns at mini-roundabouts. This can cause real confusion. I find Google maps on CarPlay is pretty good at directing you into the correct lane.
Your 3 options are about what to do in the rare circumstance when you've messed up (which happens to us all occasionally). Using that to justify performing this manoeuvre during normal everyday driving is disingenuous and shows you to be a selfish and inconsiderate driver.
Not necessarily. If it’s two lanes on approach, a ‘slingshot’ could be implemented from lane two, the ‘right’ turning lane in order to go straight over. I’ve done it before now when the right lane has been empty and traffic has been stacked up in lane 1. However, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone if it could potentially land you in hot water.
@@nuttyslackbut you’ll end up stopped on the roundabout waiting for your exit to clear. You’ll either have to block the lane you used to jump the queue or you’ll wait just short of it but the people in the left lane who should give you priority won’t because they just witnessed you being an a-hole.
It's the first time that I've come across this and to be honest, I don't really see the problem with it myself. I tried to think how it could be a problem, if the traffic in the left lane is solid, but there is space in lane 2,and if there are 2 lanes on exit to the first exit, then I don't see how it's a problem. To be fair, why would you even need to go round the roundabout? If all the people in lane 1 are turning left- no one wants to go straight on then using the right lane to turn right would be beneficial. The key thing is risk. Why do people get so mad, I mean if you did slingshot a roundabout you still have to wait for people coming from the right and if it really is that busy surely it' must improve congestion- but not only that say that after the roundabout there is another junction in close proximity and the driver wishes to turn right. It kills two birds with one stone. Some people get mad at others for merging in turn- something which is ok. Why do we have this- it's to maximise the amount of traffic that can pass through a junction in one cycle- efficiency. Why can't you apply to same principle to this scenario. In my opinion, if done safely I see no problem with doing it, maybe I'm missing something. It's ambiguity again, if it's not explicit then people will exploit the loophole till it's fixed. Like a video you made previously James, it's not a legal requirement to give way to obstructions on your side of the road, or it's not legal to stop at a give way line. You SHOULD Vs you MUST that's the problem. I'm not trying make people angry when I say these things, I'm genuinely curious why you shouldn't do this- maybe because I'm a new driver and I'm missing something. Thanks 😊
Hi Panther, good effort! in my opinion much depends on the actual cause of the delay, if the hold up extends down that exit road and additional vehicles in the second lane add to the problem then one result is that slingshot makes it worse and becomes inconsiderate, on the other hand if that road is all clear and the only issue is the slight delay caused by the slingshot vehicle having priority when it comes round again for the exit it is then just ordinary queue jumping! and sensible pocket forming will mitigate that, by staying in that second lane for instance. There other issues about should and must and all that legalistic bollocks does indeed cause even more confusion, all that ever interests me is how we can all manage to get where we want to go with the minimum of fuss and bother!, just what really works better for everyone regardless of legal status. For this reason alone there are times when I will overtake on the left hand lane if there are the=ree lanes and the slower vehicle is in the outside lane I will pass on the left hand lane if clear but will watch the outside car very carefully for any deviation the while!, this instead of slowing down more than I want to or worse still tailgating that car. For me it all comes back to the two basic methodologies that we apply, one, the prescriptive, says learn and obey all the 'rules', the other says by all means get to know the rules but actually apply careful observation and good judgement, what I call the descriptive method. The only real problem with the descriptive method is that it is only learned over significant periods and is very difficult to document or enforce, one can learn to control ones self but controlling others is not so easy, thus the prescriptive method is much more popular with instructors and other tyrants!. I am sure that given an open mind and lots of practise you will find yourself well able to drive safely and sensibly without much trouble, if you are lucky you will develop some sort of autopilot that makes you do what you need to do when you ned to do it without the need for concentration or prescription. As far as other road users are concerned any time you spend making judgements about their behaviour is time wasted!, save your judgements for yourself and hope they all do the same!. Cheers, Richard.
This is a really interesting topic. Thanks very much. While not ‘slingshot’, what do you think of this: On the M62 travelling East to West, the traffic slows just after the M621 and before the A62 towards Dewsbury. Many people leave the M62 and then carry on straight at the roundabout, rejoining the M62 but quite a few cars ahead of where they would have been, had they waited in the queue. What are people’s thoughts on this? It clearly disadvantages the traffic on the M62 heading West and so could be considered ‘inconsiderate’.
The circumstances will be important. Locals, deliberately queue jumping may well deserve a ticket, but those sorting a lane choice mistake do not. Had a student do it years ago, on test, and was commended by the examiner. Approaching the first roundabout, with a bus lane to the left, needing to turn left at the second roundabout. Another car moved into the bus lane, preventing my student from moving left. Distance between roundabouts was only about 50 yards, and changing speed did not create space alongside, so student turned right, went all the way around.
As other commenters say it's pure rubbish to call it inconsiderate/careless driving/ illegal driving. If that was the case then it would be illegal to move into that queue if there was a gap the length of a football pitch.
The Highway Code explains the procedure that you should follow if you wish to take an exit to the left at a roundabout in Section 4. It does not include the slingshot manoeuvre as a means for making a left turn. I'm sure that you understand why not following the "should / do" rules in the Highway Code means risking a prosecution but if you do not, then you need to do more research.
@JamesSimpkinsADI If you think using the roundabout is queue jumping then you must be one of those who doesn't use the Merge in Turn rule and think it's queue jumping. You're always saying "I never said it's illegal, but it is careless driving". That's like saying it's not illegal to commit a criminal offence. Where in the highway code does it say it's an offence to go all the way around the roundabout instead of queuing?
@@LarRoach hello my friend. The act of a slingshot is not illegal because it has no specific legislation against the act. So it is not illegal. However, it can and likely will attract the attention of an officer that would then likely issue a careless/inconsiderate charge. I know you don’t like the way I word these things and that’s fine. You will see it worded the same way on many sites offering advice on such matters. If you prefer to think of it as a slingshot is illegal then please do. But I wouldn’t word it like that.
@@JamesSimpkinsADI so if you approach a roundabout and are in the wrong lane, what is *your* suggested solution? go all around? cut in? drive off in a totally different direction?
Sling shot isn't practised on a regular basis. But It does ease congestion. Some people regard late merging as queue jumping. The Sling shot isn't anything like undertaking. Get a grip.
It obviously does not ease congestion. Late merging *is* queue jumping if the late lane mergers are thereby blocking or hindering a lane which would otherwise be free-flowing, which is analogous to the slingshot queue jumping manoeuvre.
@@richardsutton01 Late merging eases local congestion, not congestion over time. In this respect the slingshot has a one-up on late merging. Due to 'ghost cars' on the roundabout (spaces between cars that are too risky to enter on the roundabout) being able to double the number entering from an entrance in one go _can_ ease congestion over time *for that lane* due to saving on roundabout space. To put in other words, the efficiency of any window for that lane is doubled.
@@aimerw Late merging does not increase congestion if both lanes are merging into one lane and the cars merge-in-turn as the cars queueing in the right hand lane are not blocking any cars which wish to proceed ahead. Late merging into a single lane, at say an exit slip-road, causes unnecessary congestion as the cars slowing to merge are obstructing cars which wish to proceed ahead. Slingshotting is analogous to example 2. The cars doing the slingshot have to slow or come to a halt to try and merge into their exit lane which is blocked by traffic in the main queue. The slingshot cars slowing or waiting to merge are inevitably reducing the flow on the roundabout. One car is not going to make any difference but if instructors teach this as an accepted manoeuvre and half of the cars in the queue choose to do a slingshot, as would be logical, the entire roundabout will be gridlocked and even cars which are not interested in the exit in question will be blocked from even entering the roundabout. In short, it is a recipe for total mayhem. ☹
@@richardsutton01 Late merge we are talking about merge-in-turn. For the slingshot, the cars in the right lane enter the roundabout at the same time as the cars in the left lane. No slowing there. The cars in the left lane then travel around the roundabout to their exit, presumably before 12 o'clock so at most half the roundabout. The cars in the right lane continue around - they don't try to merge at this point (that would not be a slingshot). Hence the cars in the left lane that entered with them were never slowed down. When the cars in the right lane come all the way back around they block cars now waiting in the left lane from entering. This slows the lane down. However, you have removed X amount of cars from the left lane by going into the right lane. This speeds up the left lane. The key to easing congestion here is that cars in the left lane _also_ have to wait for cars coming from other entrances. In fact, to have congestion in the first place this must occur. Because of the nature of human reaction time and the spacing of the entrances the vehicles from the other entrances will not be compact, which leads to a lot longer wait than the number of cars would suggest. The space between the cars from the right lane will be compact. They all want the same exit, they all entered immediately after each other from the same entrance. This means the number of cars in the same window is much larger. This difference is what eases congestion for the entrance they came from - the efficiency of any window to enter the roundabout is increased by having both lanes take advantage of it rather than one.
had that a few times, though that becomes turning 180 not 270 if that makes sense, had that a fair bit with Cortonwood retail park, when you see the duel carriageway entrance is rammed its better to go right round and try again another time
There's a roundabout close to where I work where it happens every morning at peak time, the right lane is clearly marked ahead only but people turn left from it or pull the 270 move, usually blocking straight ahead traffic in the process so both lanes come to a standstill. Sometimes the police will park in a bay just before the roundabout and whenever they do everyone behaves and it flows like magic. If I were to do it in a truck I'd be more likely to be dealt with more severely by a court as a vocational licence holder should be driving to a higher standard than a non vocational licence holder. Whilst a driving instructor isn't a vocational licence holder as such the higher standard should apply to them given the nature of their occupation.
Congestion isn't reduced but the area of Congestion is reduced. If the area of Congestion then it is reduced to a smaller area. Not all the people will be going left and some will be going straight on . Depending on the roundabout you will be able to use both lanes to go straight ahead. So all the people in the left lane that could use the right lane when the roundabout allows are the ones causing the congestion as they are not using all if the available road space.
@@wrightwoodwork But in longer queues, and if enough people do it, that then blocks people travelling straight or right. This will cause more congestion. As Chris eluded to, you are also blocking all other lane exits for a small time, causing further congestion in their lanes. The longer you go around a round a bout, the greater congestion caused.
@Paul-zk2tn you only block the lane if you stop in the mouth of an entrance for others. Surely you have been on a roundabout and you exit is full and can't clear so you hold back so that people on your left can proceed left as in 1 car but mainly go straight or right. You only block if you block an entrance for others to carry on. Not because yiu did a slingshot not that I'm saying to do it . More if the roundabout has say 2 lanes to go left or 2 lanes to go straight on or 2 lanes to go right. Obviously it doesn't apply to all but often people don't always use all the available lanes they can which then causes the big long queue in the left lane whem the could also use the right lane to go straight depending on the roundabout . If people use all lanes correctly the length is reduced
@@wrightwoodwork I think it's not an unreaslonable assumption that those queueing in the left lane wouldn't be queing in the left lane if the traffic was flowing freely away from the fiirst (left) exit. So, if there's no flow to get off that roundabout via the first exit, and someone passes the queue on the right then does a slingshot, where does that leave the slingshotting driver? Stationary, on the rounabout, across the front of the queueing traffic and further adding the the queue, or stationary before the nose of the queue, but now blocking progress for those behind them on the roundabout wanting to exit the roundabout in the direction opposing that of the queueing traffic. Can't see how either of these two outcomes could be described as courteous or considerate driving. My driving instructor gave me a very valuable piece of advice, which was to never drive in such a way as to cause other road users to have to change speed or direction. This has simple nugget of advice contains within it everything a driver needs to know about courtesy, and ulltimately therefore safety.
@tbutterworth1692 you arr lacking common sense you only lacking the roundabout if your exit isn't clear and you stop in such a place that traffic from the exit before your exit gets covered by you being an idiot and stopping at that point doesn't allow people to proceed. If you stop in such a place that still all9ws traffic to flow past you have not blocked the roundabout. Let's say are going straight on no slingshot and you can enter the roundabout but your exit isn't clear do you enter knowing that you can stop in a position that will allow traffic to enter in front and can also clear behind you or go I can't clear. I'm guessing you just sit thoer going what does the theory say . Ok i can't do it so im going to block all the roads behind me. I'm not say to block the roundabout but as you've only learned to drive on theory your practical skills are lacking.
Unlikely anyone would be ticketed for this, police play the attitude test first and the amount of time it takes to issue a traffic offence report at the roadside and follow it up with a written statement, as well as filling in the database of what ethnicity the driver was etc it’s pretty unlikely, more emphasis is on mobile phone users.
No YOU consider it 'Inconsiderate Driving' that does not make it Inconsiderate Driving. I am sure many drivers have done this when they missed a junction, still Not Inconsiderate Driving and that is NOT Queue jumping !
Of course, if you do a slingshot because you missed the junction or had to execute a go-around for safety reasons because of the actions of another driver in front of you or alongside you, then that would clearly not be Inconsiderate Driving. However, James is taking about the situation where the slingshot is being executed precisely because it enables queue jumping. It's not rocket science, surely?
@@richardsutton01 You are just about to do a slingshot and you see a long gap half way up the queue in front of a lorry so you move in. Are you queue jumping and driving without reasonable consideration for other road users which is careless driving????
@@RayRobberts You are about to do a slingshot? Why would anyone be about to do a slingshot? It is inconsiderate to other road users. If you then change your mind and pull into the queue in front of a lorry, you are obviously queue jumping which is clearly also being inconsiderate to other road users. Are you trying to suggest that if I'm doing one inconsiderate manoeuvre and I then convert it into a second inconsiderate manoeuvre, then someone the two cancel each other out as in two wrongs making a right?
@richardsutton01 To make the journey quicker. Like the Merge in turn it is quite legal and those who don't like others doing it, tough. In built up areas there's nothing inconsiderate to take a short cut. Approaching a toll do you think its inconsiderate to take the shortest queue? It is NOT an offence to do a slingshot, or move into a queue with a safe gap, or take an off ramp and back on on the on ramp. Inconsiderate driving falls under careless driving which is an offence.
Of course you have to do something illegal to be charged and convicted in court. Inconsiderate or careless driving is illegal by definition. The accurate way to make the point is that you do not have to break one of the Highway Code "must" rule to be charged with a more general offence regarding driving standards. As to the exact meaning of inconsiderate driving, that is always going to be somewhat subjective.
No. You can't be charged with inconsiderate driving and even you are wondering what that is!! You can get charged for driving without due care and attention which is when your driving falls below the standard required by the Highway Code. The HC says nothing about not queue jumping - that more a moral question - and says nothing about slingshots on a roundabout.
@@johncranna9427 To be fair, even the Police UK website refers to "driving without due care or attention" as also known as either careless or inconsiderate driving. So if you are asking what "inconsiderate driving" is, it's exactly as you listed.
*"The accurate way to make the point is that you do not have to break one of the Highway Code "must" rule to be charged with a more general offence regarding driving standards."* James make this point very forcefully.
@@richardsutton01 Maybe, but his opening statement about it was flat out wrong. You do have to break a law to be prosecuted and found guilty. No exceptions.
@@TheEulerID Watch the whole video. It's not possible to cover something as involved as this in the opening statement. James is absolutely crystal clear that Careless Driving and its associated charges are back up by law. Supposedly clever "splitting of hairs" does not change the facts as expressed by James.
Ive done the odd one or two over the years. Im not that anal about the rules. The only rule i have is that my driving mustn't put others in danger. Its not something i do regularly when ive done is due to an issue in the left lane of broken down car or cant get over. The other week i had to do a 440 as it simply wasn't safe get into the correct lane . I knew i was in the wrong lane and waw expecting some of the people to move left which they didn't. 9 times out 10 i would get back into the correct lane, but saftey trumps following the rules. I certainly wasn't going to gsin from it due to traffic lights on the roundabout. As it was the safest option it was the correct choice. Different subject sat nav placement are you allowed to place on a suction pad directly in the center of the windscreen. To me if it effects your view i wouldn't do it even if no rules saying i cant
Hi D I UK, yet again you present your case clearly and in such a sensible way!. One aspect of the legal system is that it requires no realistic foundation!, driving on the other hand is entirely governed by the unbreakable laws of nature, in this regard this slingshot issue is always complicated by the specific situation, if the reason for the delay is that so many de=rivers are lacking the skill and confidence to anticipate suitable gaps in the traffic and stop at the threshold making all the drivers behind also come to a halt the total result is significant delays in total traffic volume, on this basis any who actually fail to find a gap as they approach and have to stop are being inconsiderate!.In just the same way any driver to comes to a stop be=hind anyone in such a queue is also making a mistake! what they should do is slow down enough soon enough to avoid stopping!. All of this should be included in all driver training, it is part of that much needed spacial awareness that separates good drivers from dodgy ones, it requires the study and learning of how to judge speed and find pockets of safe space to be in with careful consideration of the similar spaces needed by all others. I was told many years ago that part of this problem stems from the unthinking tradition among driving instructors to tell students to keep up with the car in front which encourages 'target fixation', that dreadful short-cut from proper observation that allows people to just follow the one in front. This too relates to the anxiety many feel that destabilises their willingness to be din any way different and leads to following other traffic through red traffic lights!. Cheers, Richard.
I think driving instructors need to do better in general after having to brake & pull in to avoid colliding with one this morning. Sadly no dash cam footage or I would happily have shared it.
Slingshot: on this one I completely agree with you. Not only is it queue jumping but it also wastes the critical resource of “roundabout bandwidth” ie delays road users from all roads feeding on to the roundabout. Undertaking: less clear cut because there is a grey area between where it is safe and advised and where it is dangerous and forbidden (although still not illegal per se).
I think the only time I have ever done a slingshot was when I didn't know what turn off I was supposed to take and it gave me a chance to figure it out. I wouldn't recommend it, though. I kind of worry that people do have this mentality more and more of "if I can't be done for it, it's fine to do". Attitude is everything on the roads and frankly this sort of attitude just stinks.
@@thecrispymaster couldn’t agree more, I think attitude is everything. And you’ve said it exactly right, this attitude of ‘I can’t get done for it so it’s fine’ seems more and more common
use the available road, but don't get in peoples way. "sling shot" as its described to go from the right hand lane, turning left _into the right hand lane when that right hand lane is also empty_ doesn't seem unreasonable - so long as you are not blocking anyone else entering the roundabout. also there are times when it is noted if for example you miss your exit, for whatever reason, or were in the wrong lane on the approach (e.g. assume left only from the left lane but left and straight on from the middle one) its best to go right round to correct and not cut in front as a politeness thing if you are doing a 270 make sure you do leave space for others to get out and don't block the exits. we have enough issues with the police ignoring things that actually are illegal for whatever reason without them bothering with things that, as you state, are not illegal. plus, could get pulled by a traffic officer? what does one of them look like? think I have seen maybe half a dozen this year, invariable exhibiting not exactly amazing driving standards themselves in various ways while also ignoring actual law breaking around them (presumably either on the way to another incident though without blue lights or because they feel its not worth their time to deal with it) this is up there with the lane police blocking two lanes when there is a sign quite clearly stating "use both lanes when queuing" and similar behaviour
Well I never. Kind of thing a driver having local knowledge of 'negotiating' that usual snarl up to being in lane two having missed the direction signs (overgrown foliage) approaching the roundabout only to realise I should be lane one. Bugger, oh well . . . Tell me I am still okay using those empty lanes leading up to roadworks, merge in turn?
It’s funny how some people can’t stand the thought of waiting a few minutes for their turn in the queue but the inconvenience of having to hire a solicitor and attend court is just fine.
@@6panel300 In that case you might be able to take the points potentially heading your way as a charge for "Inconsiderate Driving" certainly sounds to me that it might be a prime candidate for "Being inconsiderate in this manner". 🤣
@@richardsutton01 Lets get one thing clear. Driving in the right hand lane of traffic to a roundabout and the proceeding to go the roundabout 1 1/4 turns is not illegal and it is not considered to be inconsiderate. It doesn't how much it upsets your tiny little mind it is not illegal. What could be considered as inconsiderate is taking the right hand lane then darting in to the left lane near the roundabout. It could be argued by the driver that they were intending to turn right or go straight on but half way round they remembered they had to go to the supermarket to get some milk so they went all the way round to the other exit. There is no court that could prove otherwise. It's no different to using a side road to miss a queue of traffic.
I used to do it sometimes, but then I used to believe the nonsense people said about temporary traffic lights being unenforceable when someone more experienced told me when I was a novice. I know better these days, and pride myself on always trying to be the best road user I can be - on two wheels and four. You only have to see the level of some driving instructors on the roads to not be surprised at some of the attitudes. Diabolic levels of driving, from teachers. Do better.
Interesting! This isn't something that I haven't considered doing, but it's hard for me to see how it could be enforced. For example, maybe I accidentally chose the wrong lane on the approach, and decide to go all the way round to take the exit. It sounds like this would be policing our thoughts. Also, if somebody jumped a queue in the supermarket, I wouldn't call the police. I wouldn't do it, and people shouldn't do it, but I don't think it's a crime. There is the argument of using the full road space. If there are multiple lanes on the approach, then at what point does the right hand lane become wrong? In some cases, people won't know which lane they need until they get close to the roundabout, and it wouldn't make sense to join a queue if you're maybe going in another direction. If people were using the right hand lane to turn left, then it may impede the progress of people who actually want to turn right, and also increase the congestion on the roundabout. I'm a little undecided on this. I think it's very rare to find this situation where it would give a significant benefit. I'm a little undecided on whether it's right or wrong though.
Must be said, you can be pulled for doing something legal, if its done in a careless or reckless manner... there's no distinction. However slingshot (never heard that term) is annoying and selfish generally.
Approaching a Merge in Turn it could be annoying if in a long queue and a car passes you in the lane beside you with little or no vehicles in it. Similar to a slingshot. You can be pulled in for doing something legal like overtaking on either side but only if it's done carelessly . Don't think this guy is well up with the highway code.
I commented on the overtaking on the left video that the terminology used in the video was poor and I think a similar problem arises here. There is nothing which says explicitly that slingshotting is illegal. That bit is correct. Some offences are explicit. You must not exceed the speed limit. Explicit. But there are offences which are described in general terms and this is one such case. The Highway Code is explicit that drivers should use the "correct lane" on approach and use the "appropriate lane throughout". There isn't much wriggle room there. Now the counter argument. What if you miss your exit? That could be because of misreading the road signs or because of being cut up by another driver. Even Ashley Neal suggests just going round again. So in principle lapping a roundabout CAN be OK but there is a difference. Correcting a mistake (your own or someone else's) really should be OK but failing to follow the highway code is not. That is where I struggle with the comment "you don't have to be doing somethng illegal to be charged with careless or inconsiderate driving". That is simply wrong. Careless or inconsiderate driving IS the illegal act. The slingshot, in this example, is the act upon which the charge is based. Comparison from another offence. There is no law which says ypu can't punch someone. The offence is assault the evidence for which is the punch. Same here. No one can be charged for doing something which is not illegal. The offence is careless or inconsiderate driving. The evidence is the slingshot. Therefore slingshots are illegal, by inclusion in a more general offence.
Well, I think the notes from the CPS are fairly definitive so to argue against those is futile. Wouldn't do it to deliberately gain an advantage. Did ask about it but you answered in other comments. Basically there's 2 key points to take away from this 1 Don't slingshot 2 Assume anyone going all the way round a roundabout has made a mistake and not done it deliberately Getting angry in a car transforms you from a human to a chimp
The trouble with your analysis is that you're using a moral or philosophical attitude to queue, which is nothing to do with the way that the courts interpret careless driving. I saw on the CPS website that they classify misusing lanes to gain an advantage as an example of careless driving. This is bollocks as when, at roadworks you get two lanes reducing to one but you are told to use both lanes and merge at the pinch point, so are you misusing the outside lane if everyone is in the inside lane and you go past them? I think that CPS guidance is just plain wrong. There is NOTHING in the Highway Code to say that queue jumping itself is wrong. It is the manner of your driving to get ahead that needs to be considered. For example, if you go past a queue of traffic off a motorway where there is a dedicated turn off lane and you go iast a long queue but enter it where there is a gap just before the actual turn off then that is not careless driving. But if you stop in a live lane to join the queue because you can't get in then that IS careless driving.
With the traffic light example you mention, as you are told to use both lanes, you aren't misusing the lane, you are doing what you should. The problem is everyone else isn't doing what they should and are in the other lane. This seems like you are gaining an advantage, but really it's them giving up the place that they had. I think what they are saying is that the situation is different with a left turn at a roundabout. Unless it's one that is signed differently (e.g. as left being ok from both lanes), you should be in the left lane to turn left, the right lane to turn right or go back the way you came, and an appropriate lane for an intermediate exit. So, if you use the right lane to effectively turn left, you have misused the lane.
@neilp1885 but how they do they (and I mean the courts) prove that you've misused the lane. You could say that you were going to take the third exit but suddenly relapsed you actually wanted the first exit so you effectively loop. It's just full of too many potential holes if it ever went to court and any defending solicitor or barrister would be able to run rings around the prosecution team.
@@johncranna9427 (edited to correct a typo) Just because something might be difficult to prove in general doesn't make it ok, and doesn't mean that they shouldn't have laws, guidance, and the option to prosecute. It would be for the police/CPS to determine if there was likely to be sufficient evidence to charge you, and, if so, then it would be for the court to determine if you were guilty or not. For example, maybe they could prove that you were following sat nav instructions to a destination on the left, and would argue that the sat nav would have told you in sufficient time that you needed to go left. Maybe your behaviour on the approach showed that you really wanted to go left but then you changed to the right lane and went around. Maybe you had a dash cam that records audio and you made a comment to your passenger that you couldn't be bothered queueing. Maybe it's a route that you use regularly, for example, your commute to work, and they could argue that you would have known you needed to take the left.
@ A good defense might be able to "run rings around" the prosecution, but good evidence and a good prosecution case might make it hard to defend. If you want to take that chance, it's up to you. If you could "get away with it", it still doesn't change the law or the guidance, or that you might have committed an offence, just that you weren't found guilty on that occasion. Sometimes people get away with speeding, or even murder, due to lack of evidence or whatever too. That doesn't mean those aren't offences.
@@billyporter1389 I'm not sure whether anyone seriously thinks that Careless Driving is not illegal but, if there are such people, then I agree with you.
If anyone thinks this is a good idea and does it regularly then don't be disappointed when you get there one day and half the queue is in the right lane trying to do what you were going to do. People copy other people.
I have slingshotted a roundabout a few times in over 20 years of driving, each time it was done with I believe consideration and never to purposely queue jump. The first time I was overtaking a lorry on a dual carriageway, as I was alongsode the cab traffic started slowing in lane 1 around a mile and a half from the roundabout and unfortunately no suitable gap appeared to move into - don’t you just love nose to tail driving. I reached the roundabout and faced a choice of either going ahead and doing a u turn ahead and coming back or do a slingshot. I chose the latter and felt guilty doing it Most recently I signalled right to turn onto a dual carriageway from the roundabout but was on the wrong roundabout to what I thought (mild auto pilot with a complete brain fart). By the time I realised I had already passed the exit so continued round. Wasn’t even a left turn sling shot but a straight ahead slingshot! There is a roundabout at the end of a sliproad off a dual carriageway that I would not blame anyone for slingshotting. There is only one lane to turn left and it always backs onto the dual carriageway in the morning and is stationary. I believe safety in being off the dual carriageway should trump any inconsiderate driving of slingshotting…until they “improve” the junction layout that is
I've never done a slingshot manoeuvre yet Bob but I've seen UA-cam videos where people have done them to allow an ambulance with the blue lights on to get past.👍
The trouble with your analysis is that you're using a moral or philosophical attitude to queue, which is nothing to do with the way that the courts interpret careless driving. I saw on the CPS website that they classify misusing lanes to gain an advantage as an example of careless driving. This is bollocks as when, at roadworks you get two lanes reducing to one but you are told to use both lanes and merge at the pinch point, so are you misusing the outside lane if everyone is in the inside lane and you go past them? I think that CPS guidance is just plain wrong. There is NOTHING in the Highway Code to say that queue jumping itself is wrong. It is the manner of your driving to get ahead that needs to be considered. For example, if you go past a queue of traffic off a motorway where there is a dedicated turn off lane and you go iast a long queue but enter it where there is a gap just before the actual turn off then that is not careless driving. But if you stop in a live lane to join the queue because you can't get in then that IS careless driving.
@@johncranna9427Roadworks with two lanes approaching a merge point is different to a roundabout with dedicated lanes. Would you expect someone to drive to the front of a queue using a right turn only lane at traffic lights but go ahead? My first example can be related to that. The roundabout had dedicated lanes to which I was in the incorrect one for my exit. The latter, there was no traffic. I simply thought I was on the next roundabout and by the time I realised it was too late and had to loop round
The only reason there's a queue is because traffic is backed up on the exit road, likely all the way to the next junction. So you may feel clever for skipping the queue, but all you've achieved is getting into the next queue quicker, and presumably that one's much longer. If you want to be clever, avoid getting into the queue altogether. Often the best way to do that is to take the train or get on your bike.
I've done it on a very rare occasion when the left queue is so long that it is worth doing it. It's just a loophole using the setup of the road; same as turning into a car park to avoid red lights. Its a bit of a dick move, but I think most people are just mad they didn't think of it 😅 The whole "Careless and inconsiderate" thing is really subjective. Be interesting to get a lawyer like BBB on it - I'd imagine you just have to say "I intended to use a different lane but realised it was wrong on the roundabout" or "When I saw the sign for the turn traffic was queueing in the left lane and stopping to wait to get in would be dangerous". Both of those are reasonable things that do happen, and you can't prove intent was otherwise.
If it's ok for one person to do then it's ok for everyone to do, so it's ok for everyone waiting in the left lane to jump over to the right, and jam up the roundabout for all the traffic coming and going on the other three roads? of course not, makes no sense, the lane is there for a reason, you think you're special that you can pull your slingshot manoeuvre and jump the queue? what about a queue to exit a dual lane road or motorway, do you keep going until you get right up to the last possible moment then block your lane trying to get into the exit? what about in a supermarket when the queue is waiting for the checkout? do you come from the other direction and push-in to the front of the queue? If theres a queue for something, you join the back of it, it's very simple.
My "gob is absolutely smacked" on this one and boy have I learnt something on this. So before I get 'done', thank you for this kick up the arse and saving me from getting a ticket. Wow. My mind is blown. 👍🏻😄 BUT, more importantly for teaching me why it's not acceptable.
@@johncranna9427 this is from a police website.... "misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers" and why it's classed as inconsiderate/careless driving. A slingshot does exactly that as you should be queuing.
@@Richard_Barnes well I wouldn't classify the police as the arbiters of the traffic law. I saw an Ashley Neal video where a driver was pulled over by the police for using a merge in turn correctly where he passed a line of traffic, including the police car, and went to the head of the merge.
@@johncranna9427 It is not formally classified are careless driving but that is the risk you are taking. Just make sure that your licence can take the extra points. 🤣
"You don't have to do something illegal to be charged with inconsiderate or careless driving." I totally get what you are saying there, but it implies that people are getting charged despite not breaking the law. There are plenty of situations (driving and otherwise), where a specific act is not illegal, but the context for the act may mean a crime has been committed. The slingshot may not specifically have been illegal, but if the manoeuvre was deemed to be careless/inconsiderate, then it was illegal and the driver could be charged under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act. i.e. they did do something illegal. There is a roundabout near where I live where lots of people started doing this slingshot manoeuvre during morning rush hour because there was always a long queue in the left lane approaching the roundabout. With a campaign publicised in the local press, the police started putting a presence at the roundabout and certainly pulled people over - I don't know if they charged anyone though. I don't think the situation exists any more, because the priorities in the area have been changed totally.
🤔 Didn't know this was even a thing. Tbf I am yet to gain my license, but as a learner i can't quite see why you'd get in your feelings about it. Sounds more of a moral argument, but you can apply that to any action people take. It's like filming whilst driving. If I were a pedestrian I wouldn't want to be featured without consent on someone's UA-cam video... Inconsiderate? Maybe, but no laws have been broken. The instructors that teach 'slingshot' get balanced out by those that don't. It's a choise of driving courtesy, learners are often a victim of such choices.
@@MsAfrocomb1 my point is instructors are teaching something that could get you pulled over by the police and given 3 points on your licence. One you gain your licence if you get 6 points in the first 2 years you’ll lose it. How would you feel if doing something your instructor has shown you and encouraged, lost you your newly acquired licence?
Technically you cannot be done for doing something not illegal. However, driving in a careless or inconsiderate manner is illegal. Just because something isn't illegal per se doesn't mean its not illegal.
I dont think its as clear cut as it should be, and bluntly the DVSA should be looking into this practice and guidance given. The first senario is that you inadvertently find youself on a roundabout in the wrong lane and changing lanes at the point of realisation could be potentially dangerous. So going around the island again as far as i am concerned not an issue, far better than driving into a road rage situation or worse. The second is the motorway exit slip road where the left turn is into single track highway, and traffic is backing up onto the motorway yet the right hand lane is empty. The question then becomes do you want a merge in turn situation on the motorway bridge or traffic qued on the motorway. In the interest of safety i would suggest the former. However in normal circumstances it is an attempt to gain the system, and therefore a potential source of road rage.
I would definitely endorse that it's not a good idea to teach learner drivers. I don't agree that it is driving without due care and attention. The Highway Code says nothing about queue jumping being careless driving. It's mainly the manner in which you do it ie do you join the lane you should be in, in an unsafe manner.
@ "Rule 144: You MUST NOT ... drive without reasonable consideration for other road users." I would class queue jumping as lacking consideration for other road users.
"You don't have to do something illegal to be charged with inconsiderate or careless driving." Yes, you do, otherwise you wouldn't be being charged with anything. I've watched a few of your videos now and I'm increasingly of the view that you should not be posting these videos, nor teaching anyone to drive.
If you cause a collision while adjusting the heating in your vehicle, a perfectly legal thing to do, you _can_ be charged with inconsiderate or careless driving The section 3 offence is a catch all for anything not explicitly defined elsewhere and the wording is quite clear “If your driving falls below what is expected of a competent driver then you can be charged with the offence”
I think what he's trying to say is that you don't need to do something that is explicitly called out as an offence by some other legislation. For example, you don't need to be exceeding the speed limit or going past the stop line at a junction or crossing when the light is red. Careless or inconsiderate driving is it's own offence and you can be guilty of that offence when doing anything that falls below the standard expected of a careful and competent driver. Any of the rules in the Highway Code can be referenced, not just the MUST / MUST NOT ones.
Before there were specific laws on using a mobile phone when driving, it wasn't 'illegal' to hold one when driving. However, you could be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention. This driving instructor is worth his salt. Probably the best I've seen on YT. Consistently correct in regard to the law and the highway code, but also commonsense and just the right thing to do.
Somebody mentioned that the Black Belt Barrister should do a video on this subject. He has! And he doesnt think that legally and to the Highway Code its ok!! ua-cam.com/video/0pOQyBBNYxM/v-deo.htmlsi=qvV37zmJl3W1Obj4
I cannot believe a driving instructor is feeding such nonsence to vulnerable drivers. There is no evidence anywhere in any UK book on driving rules and law to back him up.
Theres so much misinformation in circulating on driving. Jesus help upcoming drivers.
@JamesSimpkinsADI. Can you please send us and all who diagree with you a ligit link that proves what you said anout a slingshot being Careless Driving or any of its subsections. Thanks
The Highway Code explains the procedure that you should follow if you wish to take an exit to the left at a roundabout in Section 4. It does not include the slingshot manoeuvre as a means for making a left turn.
I'm sure that you understand why not following the "should / do" rules in the Highway Code means risking a prosecution but if you do not, then you need to do more research.
@@richardsutton01 There is nothing that says doing complete circle around a roundabout to take a left exit is risking any prosecution. If you can find something that clearly states it is taking a risk then please show me.
@@DaronOHare There is also nothing to say that getting out of your car and dancing a merry jig on the roof dressed as Father Christmas whilst stuck in a traffic jam is risking a prosecution or, a less seasonal example, that driving everywhere in reverse is risking a prosecution, so why not give these two a go? 🤣
Surely your understanding of the Highway Code and it's applicability to UK driving regulations must be better than this Daron? If it is not, then can I respectfully suggest that you might wish to surrender your driving licence?
Merry Christmas.
@@richardsutton01
Who said there was? There's also nothing that says a slingshot is careless driving🤣.
Happy Christmas to you too.
@@DaronOHare So do you think that driving everywhere in reverse carries no risk of prosecution? A YES or NO answer is all we need.
(Don't forget that there is nothing in the Highway Code which says that you risk a prosecution for permo-reversing 🤣)
"I was a bit lost so went around to read the signs" will get you off; until the insurance check shows you live 500 yards away.
@@andyalder7910 😂😂
I've done it once accidentally on a roundabout somewhere near Bolton. Two lanes approached the roundabout and I didn't realise that the left hand lane on the approach was also the lane for the 2nd turn off, just past the 12 o'clock. It was only when I got to the roundabout did I then realise that everyone in the left hand lane was going straight on and that the 2nd lane didn't. So I had to slingshot it. I assume I had missed the lane signage in the lead up to the roundabout. However, my father in law, who is a driving instructor local to the area, and who was following me made the point of asking me when we got back to their home about that roundabout. He mentioned that unless you had driven that way before (which I never had) then you have no way of knowing the lane you need to be in as you approach that roundabout.
@@brianmooreshead exactly that, and if it’s not congested you’d definitely be fine. Even in that case I’m sure a conversation with any officer that pulled you would easily sort that out.
Where is this list of what's considered inconsiderate driving?
It's a list of those things "where someone is driving without reasonable consideration for other road users."
Pause the video on the screenshot of the CPS guidelines
Wow, I just had this channel recommended to me today. What a super interesting topic of discussion, most divisive! I admit to having performed this particular maneuver on the rare occasion myself. It was only done because of my unfamiliarity with the junction I found myself in and each of the times I tried to change lane back to lane 1 for the 1st exit, I was blocked by people closing down gaps, so rather than sit stationary, blocking lane 2 with my indicator on indefintely, I decided it was simply easier for everyone and best for traffic flow to proceed on and simply go all the way round. I'm not in the habbit of doing it so simply avoid queuing. _*I have noted plenty of well known courier vans doing it though as they believe in saving every prescious miniute to get you that delivery on time! *_
I’ve got confused, left on an exit that wasn’t the one intended, stopped, looked at the map and tried the island again. I’ve never thought of slingshot before though. The only reason why there would be slingshot police is if there had been a reason for them to be there and a reason for a blocked exit. Well now I know the dark side.
There is a roundabout just of from my work depot and turning right was backed up due to temporary lights. Because I couldn't go I waited behind the line only to find two colleagues jump me from the left lane to park on the back side of the roundabout. That was sort of fine until a big 44ft artic wanted to come from the right and turn right themselves. Nearly wrote both cars off. Second day it happened I went straight on, took a massive 3 mile diversion and ended up back on my route no later than I would have been if I'd waited for the lights.
You were right James, you can lead all these horses to water but you can make them drink.
"inconsiderate driving", rubbish, that would never get to court, simply unable to prove the drivers intention which could simply be "I changed my mind about where I was going"
You'd just get an FPN.
@stevenpremmel4116 Which can be refused and the option of court. There's nothing different about this and a zip merge, except for a 360 at the end!
Nothing illegal, no offence, anyone claiming to have been charged clearly failed to use the law to their defence.
@djtaylorutube Who's going to waste time contesting it in court though?
@stevenpremmel4116 Someone who chooses not to roll over and be screwed over by a non offence!
Hi D J Taylor tube, I am sorry to tell you that you got the wrong end of that stick!, considerate is an active verb and has no respect for intention!, one is or is not considerate according to the reasonable judgement of reasonable people given all the relevant facts of the actual physical situation, it is a methodological process the leads to a judgement based on consensus not law.
Cheers, Richard.
keep in mind also, approach a roundabout in the wrong lane, for whatever reason, you have basically three choices:
1, signal to change lane and stop until there is a gap - blocking the lane for a while until someone lets you in
2, get to the roundabout and turn left from another lane, potentially cutting across people - we have all seen the dash cam videos on how that can end
3, go right around and then take the required exit
which of these causes the least disruption to other traffic?
as for "gaining an advantage", so say I see the road is busy and I move to a side street and go a different way? have I "gained an advantage"?
_its not a race, drivers are not in competition with each other_
Yes they are competing - it is an example of _the Tragedy of the Commons_ ; the resource in this case being the carriageway. Acting in the selfish way worsens everybody else's access to the resource.
You missed the choice 4. Turn off at a different exit and let the satnav compensate for your inability to get in the correct lane!
@@Tailspin80 if you have a sat nav set up thats fine, part of the issue is the things not always telling you what lane to be in in the first place, valid option - again depends where you are of course as that could add miles to a trip where as circulating doesn't - further point, this is less of a problem on larger roundabouts - say motorway junctions and similar sized ones than small ones that have a few flowerpots in the middle
@ All good points and HC rule 188 says Avoid making U-turns at mini-roundabouts. This can cause real confusion. I find Google maps on CarPlay is pretty good at directing you into the correct lane.
Your 3 options are about what to do in the rare circumstance when you've messed up (which happens to us all occasionally). Using that to justify performing this manoeuvre during normal everyday driving is disingenuous and shows you to be a selfish and inconsiderate driver.
Surely if traffic is queuing to turn left the doing that slig-shot manoeuvre just makes the congestion worse . . .
Not necessarily. If it’s two lanes on approach, a ‘slingshot’ could be implemented from lane two, the ‘right’ turning lane in order to go straight over.
I’ve done it before now when the right lane has been empty and traffic has been stacked up in lane 1.
However, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone if it could potentially land you in hot water.
@@nuttyslackbut you’ll end up stopped on the roundabout waiting for your exit to clear. You’ll either have to block the lane you used to jump the queue or you’ll wait just short of it but the people in the left lane who should give you priority won’t because they just witnessed you being an a-hole.
It's the first time that I've come across this and to be honest, I don't really see the problem with it myself. I tried to think how it could be a problem, if the traffic in the left lane is solid, but there is space in lane 2,and if there are 2 lanes on exit to the first exit, then I don't see how it's a problem. To be fair, why would you even need to go round the roundabout? If all the people in lane 1 are turning left- no one wants to go straight on then using the right lane to turn right would be beneficial. The key thing is risk.
Why do people get so mad, I mean if you did slingshot a roundabout you still have to wait for people coming from the right and if it really is that busy surely it' must improve congestion- but not only that say that after the roundabout there is another junction in close proximity and the driver wishes to turn right. It kills two birds with one stone. Some people get mad at others for merging in turn- something which is ok. Why do we have this- it's to maximise the amount of traffic that can pass through a junction in one cycle- efficiency. Why can't you apply to same principle to this scenario.
In my opinion, if done safely I see no problem with doing it, maybe I'm missing something. It's ambiguity again, if it's not explicit then people will exploit the loophole till it's fixed. Like a video you made previously James, it's not a legal requirement to give way to obstructions on your side of the road, or it's not legal to stop at a give way line. You SHOULD Vs you MUST that's the problem. I'm not trying make people angry when I say these things, I'm genuinely curious why you shouldn't do this- maybe because I'm a new driver and I'm missing something. Thanks 😊
Hi Panther, good effort! in my opinion much depends on the actual cause of the delay, if the hold up extends down that exit road and additional vehicles in the second lane add to the problem then one result is that slingshot makes it worse and becomes inconsiderate, on the other hand if that road is all clear and the only issue is the slight delay caused by the slingshot vehicle having priority when it comes round again for the exit it is then just ordinary queue jumping! and sensible pocket forming will mitigate that, by staying in that second lane for instance.
There other issues about should and must and all that legalistic bollocks does indeed cause even more confusion, all that ever interests me is how we can all manage to get where we want to go with the minimum of fuss and bother!, just what really works better for everyone regardless of legal status.
For this reason alone there are times when I will overtake on the left hand lane if there are the=ree lanes and the slower vehicle is in the outside lane I will pass on the left hand lane if clear but will watch the outside car very carefully for any deviation the while!, this instead of slowing down more than I want to or worse still tailgating that car.
For me it all comes back to the two basic methodologies that we apply, one, the prescriptive, says learn and obey all the 'rules', the other says by all means get to know the rules but actually apply careful observation and good judgement, what I call the descriptive method.
The only real problem with the descriptive method is that it is only learned over significant periods and is very difficult to document or enforce, one can learn to control ones self but controlling others is not so easy, thus the prescriptive method is much more popular with instructors and other tyrants!.
I am sure that given an open mind and lots of practise you will find yourself well able to drive safely and sensibly without much trouble, if you are lucky you will develop some sort of autopilot that makes you do what you need to do when you ned to do it without the need for concentration or prescription.
As far as other road users are concerned any time you spend making judgements about their behaviour is time wasted!, save your judgements for yourself and hope they all do the same!.
Cheers, Richard.
@richardharvey1732 wow thanks for the advice Richard 😊I appreciate it
This is a really interesting topic. Thanks very much.
While not ‘slingshot’, what do you think of this:
On the M62 travelling East to West, the traffic slows just after the M621 and before the A62 towards Dewsbury. Many people leave the M62 and then carry on straight at the roundabout, rejoining the M62 but quite a few cars ahead of where they would have been, had they waited in the queue.
What are people’s thoughts on this? It clearly disadvantages the traffic on the M62 heading West and so could be considered ‘inconsiderate’.
The circumstances will be important. Locals, deliberately queue jumping may well deserve a ticket, but those sorting a lane choice mistake do not. Had a student do it years ago, on test, and was commended by the examiner. Approaching the first roundabout, with a bus lane to the left, needing to turn left at the second roundabout. Another car moved into the bus lane, preventing my student from moving left. Distance between roundabouts was only about 50 yards, and changing speed did not create space alongside, so student turned right, went all the way around.
As other commenters say it's pure rubbish to call it inconsiderate/careless driving/ illegal driving.
If that was the case then it would be illegal to move into that queue if there was a gap the length of a football pitch.
The Highway Code explains the procedure that you should follow if you wish to take an exit to the left at a roundabout in Section 4. It does not include the slingshot manoeuvre as a means for making a left turn.
I'm sure that you understand why not following the "should / do" rules in the Highway Code means risking a prosecution but if you do not, then you need to do more research.
@JamesSimpkinsADI If you think using the roundabout is queue jumping then you must be one of those who doesn't use the Merge in Turn rule and think it's queue jumping.
You're always saying "I never said it's illegal, but it is careless driving". That's like saying it's not illegal to commit a criminal offence. Where in the highway code does it say it's an offence to go all the way around the roundabout instead of queuing?
@@LarRoach hello my friend. The act of a slingshot is not illegal because it has no specific legislation against the act. So it is not illegal. However, it can and likely will attract the attention of an officer that would then likely issue a careless/inconsiderate charge. I know you don’t like the way I word these things and that’s fine. You will see it worded the same way on many sites offering advice on such matters. If you prefer to think of it as a slingshot is illegal then please do. But I wouldn’t word it like that.
@@JamesSimpkinsADI so if you approach a roundabout and are in the wrong lane, what is *your* suggested solution?
go all around? cut in? drive off in a totally different direction?
@@JamesSimpkinsADI
How do you know by doing it, a cop would issue a ticket for careless/inconsiderate driving? Show me anything that backs you up.
@ I already have. Again you just don’t want to know. I honestly don’t really understand why you watch my videos, you clearly don’t want to listen. 🤪
@ www.joe.co.uk/news/brits-warned-using-slingshot-trick-on-roundabouts-could-land-you-in-trouble-411765
Sling shot isn't practised on a regular basis. But It does ease congestion. Some people regard late merging as queue jumping. The Sling shot isn't anything like undertaking. Get a grip.
Exactly. Late merging is encouraged because by using both lanes you halve the congested area freeing up junctions prior.
It obviously does not ease congestion. Late merging *is* queue jumping if the late lane mergers are thereby blocking or hindering a lane which would otherwise be free-flowing, which is analogous to the slingshot queue jumping manoeuvre.
@@richardsutton01 Late merging eases local congestion, not congestion over time.
In this respect the slingshot has a one-up on late merging. Due to 'ghost cars' on the roundabout (spaces between cars that are too risky to enter on the roundabout) being able to double the number entering from an entrance in one go _can_ ease congestion over time *for that lane* due to saving on roundabout space.
To put in other words, the efficiency of any window for that lane is doubled.
@@aimerw Late merging does not increase congestion if both lanes are merging into one lane and the cars merge-in-turn as the cars queueing in the right hand lane are not blocking any cars which wish to proceed ahead.
Late merging into a single lane, at say an exit slip-road, causes unnecessary congestion as the cars slowing to merge are obstructing cars which wish to proceed ahead.
Slingshotting is analogous to example 2. The cars doing the slingshot have to slow or come to a halt to try and merge into their exit lane which is blocked by traffic in the main queue. The slingshot cars slowing or waiting to merge are inevitably reducing the flow on the roundabout.
One car is not going to make any difference but if instructors teach this as an accepted manoeuvre and half of the cars in the queue choose to do a slingshot, as would be logical, the entire roundabout will be gridlocked and even cars which are not interested in the exit in question will be blocked from even entering the roundabout.
In short, it is a recipe for total mayhem. ☹
@@richardsutton01 Late merge we are talking about merge-in-turn.
For the slingshot, the cars in the right lane enter the roundabout at the same time as the cars in the left lane. No slowing there.
The cars in the left lane then travel around the roundabout to their exit, presumably before 12 o'clock so at most half the roundabout. The cars in the right lane continue around - they don't try to merge at this point (that would not be a slingshot). Hence the cars in the left lane that entered with them were never slowed down.
When the cars in the right lane come all the way back around they block cars now waiting in the left lane from entering. This slows the lane down. However, you have removed X amount of cars from the left lane by going into the right lane. This speeds up the left lane.
The key to easing congestion here is that cars in the left lane _also_ have to wait for cars coming from other entrances. In fact, to have congestion in the first place this must occur. Because of the nature of human reaction time and the spacing of the entrances the vehicles from the other entrances will not be compact, which leads to a lot longer wait than the number of cars would suggest.
The space between the cars from the right lane will be compact. They all want the same exit, they all entered immediately after each other from the same entrance. This means the number of cars in the same window is much larger. This difference is what eases congestion for the entrance they came from - the efficiency of any window to enter the roundabout is increased by having both lanes take advantage of it rather than one.
Hell yeah king. I'm an instructor too and this video makes me proud to be a giant road safety nerd.
I was going to pop into town to pick up a new syzygy. When I saw the queuing traffic, I decided against it and went home instead.
had that a few times, though that becomes turning 180 not 270 if that makes sense, had that a fair bit with Cortonwood retail park, when you see the duel carriageway entrance is rammed its better to go right round and try again another time
There's a roundabout close to where I work where it happens every morning at peak time, the right lane is clearly marked ahead only but people turn left from it or pull the 270 move, usually blocking straight ahead traffic in the process so both lanes come to a standstill. Sometimes the police will park in a bay just before the roundabout and whenever they do everyone behaves and it flows like magic.
If I were to do it in a truck I'd be more likely to be dealt with more severely by a court as a vocational licence holder should be driving to a higher standard than a non vocational licence holder. Whilst a driving instructor isn't a vocational licence holder as such the higher standard should apply to them given the nature of their occupation.
Police Presence, The BEST Deterrent. (edited for spelling 🤓)
It doesn't even reduce congestion because the people in the queue have to stop for the queue jumper when they come round the roundabout.
Congestion isn't reduced but the area of Congestion is reduced. If the area of Congestion then it is reduced to a smaller area. Not all the people will be going left and some will be going straight on . Depending on the roundabout you will be able to use both lanes to go straight ahead. So all the people in the left lane that could use the right lane when the roundabout allows are the ones causing the congestion as they are not using all if the available road space.
@@wrightwoodwork But in longer queues, and if enough people do it, that then blocks people travelling straight or right. This will cause more congestion. As Chris eluded to, you are also blocking all other lane exits for a small time, causing further congestion in their lanes. The longer you go around a round a bout, the greater congestion caused.
@Paul-zk2tn you only block the lane if you stop in the mouth of an entrance for others. Surely you have been on a roundabout and you exit is full and can't clear so you hold back so that people on your left can proceed left as in 1 car but mainly go straight or right. You only block if you block an entrance for others to carry on. Not because yiu did a slingshot not that I'm saying to do it . More if the roundabout has say 2 lanes to go left or 2 lanes to go straight on or 2 lanes to go right. Obviously it doesn't apply to all but often people don't always use all the available lanes they can which then causes the big long queue in the left lane whem the could also use the right lane to go straight depending on the roundabout . If people use all lanes correctly the length is reduced
@@wrightwoodwork I think it's not an unreaslonable assumption that those queueing in the left lane wouldn't be queing in the left lane if the traffic was flowing freely away from the fiirst (left) exit. So, if there's no flow to get off that roundabout via the first exit, and someone passes the queue on the right then does a slingshot, where does that leave the slingshotting driver? Stationary, on the rounabout, across the front of the queueing traffic and further adding the the queue, or stationary before the nose of the queue, but now blocking progress for those behind them on the roundabout wanting to exit the roundabout in the direction opposing that of the queueing traffic. Can't see how either of these two outcomes could be described as courteous or considerate driving. My driving instructor gave me a very valuable piece of advice, which was to never drive in such a way as to cause other road users to have to change speed or direction. This has simple nugget of advice contains within it everything a driver needs to know about courtesy, and ulltimately therefore safety.
@tbutterworth1692 you arr lacking common sense you only lacking the roundabout if your exit isn't clear and you stop in such a place that traffic from the exit before your exit gets covered by you being an idiot and stopping at that point doesn't allow people to proceed. If you stop in such a place that still all9ws traffic to flow past you have not blocked the roundabout. Let's say are going straight on no slingshot and you can enter the roundabout but your exit isn't clear do you enter knowing that you can stop in a position that will allow traffic to enter in front and can also clear behind you or go I can't clear. I'm guessing you just sit thoer going what does the theory say . Ok i can't do it so im going to block all the roads behind me. I'm not say to block the roundabout but as you've only learned to drive on theory your practical skills are lacking.
Unlikely anyone would be ticketed for this, police play the attitude test first and the amount of time it takes to issue a traffic offence report at the roadside and follow it up with a written statement, as well as filling in the database of what ethnicity the driver was etc it’s pretty unlikely, more emphasis is on mobile phone users.
No YOU consider it 'Inconsiderate Driving' that does not make it Inconsiderate Driving.
I am sure many drivers have done this when they missed a junction, still Not Inconsiderate Driving and that is NOT Queue jumping !
Spot on. With his logic it's careless driving to take the exit ramp and back on to the enterance slip road to get ahead.
Of course, if you do a slingshot because you missed the junction or had to execute a go-around for safety reasons because of the actions of another driver in front of you or alongside you, then that would clearly not be Inconsiderate Driving.
However, James is taking about the situation where the slingshot is being executed precisely because it enables queue jumping.
It's not rocket science, surely?
@@richardsutton01
You are just about to do a slingshot and you see a long gap half way up the queue in front of a lorry so you move in. Are you queue jumping and driving without reasonable consideration for other road users which is careless driving????
@@RayRobberts You are about to do a slingshot? Why would anyone be about to do a slingshot? It is inconsiderate to other road users. If you then change your mind and pull into the queue in front of a lorry, you are obviously queue jumping which is clearly also being inconsiderate to other road users.
Are you trying to suggest that if I'm doing one inconsiderate manoeuvre and I then convert it into a second inconsiderate manoeuvre, then someone the two cancel each other out as in two wrongs making a right?
@richardsutton01
To make the journey quicker. Like the Merge in turn it is quite legal and those who don't like others doing it, tough. In built up areas there's nothing inconsiderate to take a short cut. Approaching a toll do you think its inconsiderate to take the shortest queue? It is NOT an offence to do a slingshot, or move into a queue with a safe gap, or take an off ramp and back on on the on ramp. Inconsiderate driving falls under careless driving which is an offence.
CARELESS DRIVING IS A CRIMINAL OFFENCE AND *IS* ILLEGAL. How can a driving instructor not understand this??
Of course you have to do something illegal to be charged and convicted in court. Inconsiderate or careless driving is illegal by definition. The accurate way to make the point is that you do not have to break one of the Highway Code "must" rule to be charged with a more general offence regarding driving standards.
As to the exact meaning of inconsiderate driving, that is always going to be somewhat subjective.
No. You can't be charged with inconsiderate driving and even you are wondering what that is!! You can get charged for driving without due care and attention which is when your driving falls below the standard required by the Highway Code. The HC says nothing about not queue jumping - that more a moral question - and says nothing about slingshots on a roundabout.
@@johncranna9427 To be fair, even the Police UK website refers to "driving without due care or attention" as also known as either careless or inconsiderate driving. So if you are asking what "inconsiderate driving" is, it's exactly as you listed.
*"The accurate way to make the point is that you do not have to break one of the Highway Code "must" rule to be charged with a more general offence regarding driving standards."* James make this point very forcefully.
@@richardsutton01 Maybe, but his opening statement about it was flat out wrong. You do have to break a law to be prosecuted and found guilty. No exceptions.
@@TheEulerID Watch the whole video. It's not possible to cover something as involved as this in the opening statement. James is absolutely crystal clear that Careless Driving and its associated charges are back up by law. Supposedly clever "splitting of hairs" does not change the facts as expressed by James.
Ive done the odd one or two over the years. Im not that anal about the rules. The only rule i have is that my driving mustn't put others in danger. Its not something i do regularly when ive done is due to an issue in the left lane of broken down car or cant get over. The other week i had to do a 440 as it simply wasn't safe get into the correct lane . I knew i was in the wrong lane and waw expecting some of the people to move left which they didn't. 9 times out 10 i would get back into the correct lane, but saftey trumps following the rules. I certainly wasn't going to gsin from it due to traffic lights on the roundabout. As it was the safest option it was the correct choice.
Different subject sat nav placement are you allowed to place on a suction pad directly in the center of the windscreen. To me if it effects your view i wouldn't do it even if no rules saying i cant
Hi D I UK, yet again you present your case clearly and in such a sensible way!. One aspect of the legal system is that it requires no realistic foundation!, driving on the other hand is entirely governed by the unbreakable laws of nature, in this regard this slingshot issue is always complicated by the specific situation, if the reason for the delay is that so many de=rivers are lacking the skill and confidence to anticipate suitable gaps in the traffic and stop at the threshold making all the drivers behind also come to a halt the total result is significant delays in total traffic volume, on this basis any who actually fail to find a gap as they approach and have to stop are being inconsiderate!.In just the same way any driver to comes to a stop be=hind anyone in such a queue is also making a mistake! what they should do is slow down enough soon enough to avoid stopping!.
All of this should be included in all driver training, it is part of that much needed spacial awareness that separates good drivers from dodgy ones, it requires the study and learning of how to judge speed and find pockets of safe space to be in with careful consideration of the similar spaces needed by all others.
I was told many years ago that part of this problem stems from the unthinking tradition among driving instructors to tell students to keep up with the car in front which encourages 'target fixation', that dreadful short-cut from proper observation that allows people to just follow the one in front. This too relates to the anxiety many feel that destabilises their willingness to be din any way different and leads to following other traffic through red traffic lights!.
Cheers, Richard.
I think driving instructors need to do better in general after having to brake & pull in to avoid colliding with one this morning. Sadly no dash cam footage or I would happily have shared it.
Slingshot: on this one I completely agree with you. Not only is it queue jumping but it also wastes the critical resource of “roundabout bandwidth” ie delays road users from all roads feeding on to the roundabout. Undertaking: less clear cut because there is a grey area between where it is safe and advised and where it is dangerous and forbidden (although still not illegal per se).
I think the only time I have ever done a slingshot was when I didn't know what turn off I was supposed to take and it gave me a chance to figure it out. I wouldn't recommend it, though.
I kind of worry that people do have this mentality more and more of "if I can't be done for it, it's fine to do". Attitude is everything on the roads and frankly this sort of attitude just stinks.
@@thecrispymaster couldn’t agree more, I think attitude is everything. And you’ve said it exactly right, this attitude of ‘I can’t get done for it so it’s fine’ seems more and more common
Can you talk about escort vehicles and yellow lights i have seen. Them pull out to stop traffic luke there police
use the available road, but don't get in peoples way. "sling shot" as its described to go from the right hand lane, turning left _into the right hand lane when that right hand lane is also empty_ doesn't seem unreasonable - so long as you are not blocking anyone else entering the roundabout.
also there are times when it is noted if for example you miss your exit, for whatever reason, or were in the wrong lane on the approach (e.g. assume left only from the left lane but left and straight on from the middle one) its best to go right round to correct and not cut in front
as a politeness thing if you are doing a 270 make sure you do leave space for others to get out and don't block the exits.
we have enough issues with the police ignoring things that actually are illegal for whatever reason without them bothering with things that, as you state, are not illegal.
plus, could get pulled by a traffic officer? what does one of them look like? think I have seen maybe half a dozen this year, invariable exhibiting not exactly amazing driving standards themselves in various ways while also ignoring actual law breaking around them (presumably either on the way to another incident though without blue lights or because they feel its not worth their time to deal with it)
this is up there with the lane police blocking two lanes when there is a sign quite clearly stating "use both lanes when queuing" and similar behaviour
Well I never. Kind of thing a driver having local knowledge of 'negotiating' that usual snarl up to being in lane two having missed the direction signs (overgrown foliage) approaching the roundabout only to realise I should be lane one. Bugger, oh well . . . Tell me I am still okay using those empty lanes leading up to roadworks, merge in turn?
I would say to any copper lets argue about it in court. Being inconsiderate in this manner is not illegal so can't be enforced.
Let's hope your licence can take those points. 🤣
@@richardsutton01 I have a clean licence. I've driving longer than most coppers have been alive.
It’s funny how some people can’t stand the thought of waiting a few minutes for their turn in the queue but the inconvenience of having to hire a solicitor and attend court is just fine.
@@6panel300 In that case you might be able to take the points potentially heading your way as a charge for "Inconsiderate Driving" certainly sounds to me that it might be a prime candidate for "Being inconsiderate in this manner". 🤣
@@richardsutton01 Lets get one thing clear. Driving in the right hand lane of traffic to a roundabout and the proceeding to go the roundabout 1 1/4 turns is not illegal and it is not considered to be inconsiderate. It doesn't how much it upsets your tiny little mind it is not illegal. What could be considered as inconsiderate is taking the right hand lane then darting in to the left lane near the roundabout. It could be argued by the driver that they were intending to turn right or go straight on but half way round they remembered they had to go to the supermarket to get some milk so they went all the way round to the other exit. There is no court that could prove otherwise. It's no different to using a side road to miss a queue of traffic.
I used to do it sometimes, but then I used to believe the nonsense people said about temporary traffic lights being unenforceable when someone more experienced told me when I was a novice. I know better these days, and pride myself on always trying to be the best road user I can be - on two wheels and four.
You only have to see the level of some driving instructors on the roads to not be surprised at some of the attitudes.
Diabolic levels of driving, from teachers.
Do better.
Interesting! This isn't something that I haven't considered doing, but it's hard for me to see how it could be enforced. For example, maybe I accidentally chose the wrong lane on the approach, and decide to go all the way round to take the exit. It sounds like this would be policing our thoughts.
Also, if somebody jumped a queue in the supermarket, I wouldn't call the police. I wouldn't do it, and people shouldn't do it, but I don't think it's a crime.
There is the argument of using the full road space. If there are multiple lanes on the approach, then at what point does the right hand lane become wrong? In some cases, people won't know which lane they need until they get close to the roundabout, and it wouldn't make sense to join a queue if you're maybe going in another direction. If people were using the right hand lane to turn left, then it may impede the progress of people who actually want to turn right, and also increase the congestion on the roundabout.
I'm a little undecided on this. I think it's very rare to find this situation where it would give a significant benefit. I'm a little undecided on whether it's right or wrong though.
I completely agree with you. You can't apply a moral argument of queue jumping to the way the Highway Code works.
Must be said, you can be pulled for doing something legal, if its done in a careless or reckless manner... there's no distinction. However slingshot (never heard that term) is annoying and selfish generally.
Approaching a Merge in Turn it could be annoying if in a long queue and a car passes you in the lane beside you with little or no vehicles in it. Similar to a slingshot. You can be pulled in for doing something legal like overtaking on either side but only if it's done carelessly . Don't think this guy is well up with the highway code.
I commented on the overtaking on the left video that the terminology used in the video was poor and I think a similar problem arises here. There is nothing which says explicitly that slingshotting is illegal. That bit is correct. Some offences are explicit. You must not exceed the speed limit. Explicit. But there are offences which are described in general terms and this is one such case. The Highway Code is explicit that drivers should use the "correct lane" on approach and use the "appropriate lane throughout". There isn't much wriggle room there.
Now the counter argument. What if you miss your exit? That could be because of misreading the road signs or because of being cut up by another driver. Even Ashley Neal suggests just going round again. So in principle lapping a roundabout CAN be OK but there is a difference. Correcting a mistake (your own or someone else's) really should be OK but failing to follow the highway code is not.
That is where I struggle with the comment "you don't have to be doing somethng illegal to be charged with careless or inconsiderate driving". That is simply wrong. Careless or inconsiderate driving IS the illegal act. The slingshot, in this example, is the act upon which the charge is based. Comparison from another offence. There is no law which says ypu can't punch someone. The offence is assault the evidence for which is the punch. Same here. No one can be charged for doing something which is not illegal. The offence is careless or inconsiderate driving. The evidence is the slingshot. Therefore slingshots are illegal, by inclusion in a more general offence.
James' terminology is perfect .... just as it was for the "overtaking on the left" video.
Well, I think the notes from the CPS are fairly definitive so to argue against those is futile. Wouldn't do it to deliberately gain an advantage. Did ask about it but you answered in other comments. Basically there's 2 key points to take away from this
1 Don't slingshot
2 Assume anyone going all the way round a roundabout has made a mistake and not done it deliberately
Getting angry in a car transforms you from a human to a chimp
The trouble with your analysis is that you're using a moral or philosophical attitude to queue, which is nothing to do with the way that the courts interpret careless driving.
I saw on the CPS website that they classify misusing lanes to gain an advantage as an example of careless driving. This is bollocks as when, at roadworks you get two lanes reducing to one but you are told to use both lanes and merge at the pinch point, so are you misusing the outside lane if everyone is in the inside lane and you go past them? I think that CPS guidance is just plain wrong.
There is NOTHING in the Highway Code to say that queue jumping itself is wrong. It is the manner of your driving to get ahead that needs to be considered. For example, if you go past a queue of traffic off a motorway where there is a dedicated turn off lane and you go iast a long queue but enter it where there is a gap just before the actual turn off then that is not careless driving. But if you stop in a live lane to join the queue because you can't get in then that IS careless driving.
With the traffic light example you mention, as you are told to use both lanes, you aren't misusing the lane, you are doing what you should. The problem is everyone else isn't doing what they should and are in the other lane. This seems like you are gaining an advantage, but really it's them giving up the place that they had.
I think what they are saying is that the situation is different with a left turn at a roundabout. Unless it's one that is signed differently (e.g. as left being ok from both lanes), you should be in the left lane to turn left, the right lane to turn right or go back the way you came, and an appropriate lane for an intermediate exit. So, if you use the right lane to effectively turn left, you have misused the lane.
@neilp1885 but how they do they (and I mean the courts) prove that you've misused the lane. You could say that you were going to take the third exit but suddenly relapsed you actually wanted the first exit so you effectively loop. It's just full of too many potential holes if it ever went to court and any defending solicitor or barrister would be able to run rings around the prosecution team.
@@johncranna9427 (edited to correct a typo) Just because something might be difficult to prove in general doesn't make it ok, and doesn't mean that they shouldn't have laws, guidance, and the option to prosecute.
It would be for the police/CPS to determine if there was likely to be sufficient evidence to charge you, and, if so, then it would be for the court to determine if you were guilty or not.
For example, maybe they could prove that you were following sat nav instructions to a destination on the left, and would argue that the sat nav would have told you in sufficient time that you needed to go left. Maybe your behaviour on the approach showed that you really wanted to go left but then you changed to the right lane and went around. Maybe you had a dash cam that records audio and you made a comment to your passenger that you couldn't be bothered queueing. Maybe it's a route that you use regularly, for example, your commute to work, and they could argue that you would have known you needed to take the left.
@@neilp1885 maybe, maybe, maybe. A good defence would still run rings around any prosecution.
@ A good defense might be able to "run rings around" the prosecution, but good evidence and a good prosecution case might make it hard to defend. If you want to take that chance, it's up to you.
If you could "get away with it", it still doesn't change the law or the guidance, or that you might have committed an offence, just that you weren't found guilty on that occasion. Sometimes people get away with speeding, or even murder, due to lack of evidence or whatever too. That doesn't mean those aren't offences.
@JamesSimpkinsADI Road death figures will never ever come to zero.
Judging by the lack of basic driving knowledge amongst so many of the commenters on these videos, I'm inclined to agree with you. ☹
@richardsutton01
Especially those who thing careless driving is not illegal🤣
@@billyporter1389 I'm not sure whether anyone seriously thinks that Careless Driving is not illegal but, if there are such people, then I agree with you.
@richardsutton01
If somebody said "I never said it was illegal" but they did say it's Careless Driving would you agree with them?
@@billyporter1389 That doesn't make any sense. What is the "it" referring to?
If anyone thinks this is a good idea and does it regularly then don't be disappointed when you get there one day and half the queue is in the right lane trying to do what you were going to do. People copy other people.
Well said.
I have slingshotted a roundabout a few times in over 20 years of driving, each time it was done with I believe consideration and never to purposely queue jump.
The first time I was overtaking a lorry on a dual carriageway, as I was alongsode the cab traffic started slowing in lane 1 around a mile and a half from the roundabout and unfortunately no suitable gap appeared to move into - don’t you just love nose to tail driving. I reached the roundabout and faced a choice of either going ahead and doing a u turn ahead and coming back or do a slingshot. I chose the latter and felt guilty doing it
Most recently I signalled right to turn onto a dual carriageway from the roundabout but was on the wrong roundabout to what I thought (mild auto pilot with a complete brain fart). By the time I realised I had already passed the exit so continued round. Wasn’t even a left turn sling shot but a straight ahead slingshot!
There is a roundabout at the end of a sliproad off a dual carriageway that I would not blame anyone for slingshotting. There is only one lane to turn left and it always backs onto the dual carriageway in the morning and is stationary. I believe safety in being off the dual carriageway should trump any inconsiderate driving of slingshotting…until they “improve” the junction layout that is
I've never done a slingshot manoeuvre yet Bob but I've seen UA-cam videos where people have done them to allow an ambulance with the blue lights on to get past.👍
The trouble with your analysis is that you're using a moral or philosophical attitude to queue, which is nothing to do with the way that the courts interpret careless driving.
I saw on the CPS website that they classify misusing lanes to gain an advantage as an example of careless driving. This is bollocks as when, at roadworks you get two lanes reducing to one but you are told to use both lanes and merge at the pinch point, so are you misusing the outside lane if everyone is in the inside lane and you go past them? I think that CPS guidance is just plain wrong.
There is NOTHING in the Highway Code to say that queue jumping itself is wrong. It is the manner of your driving to get ahead that needs to be considered. For example, if you go past a queue of traffic off a motorway where there is a dedicated turn off lane and you go iast a long queue but enter it where there is a gap just before the actual turn off then that is not careless driving. But if you stop in a live lane to join the queue because you can't get in then that IS careless driving.
@@johncranna9427Roadworks with two lanes approaching a merge point is different to a roundabout with dedicated lanes. Would you expect someone to drive to the front of a queue using a right turn only lane at traffic lights but go ahead?
My first example can be related to that. The roundabout had dedicated lanes to which I was in the incorrect one for my exit.
The latter, there was no traffic. I simply thought I was on the next roundabout and by the time I realised it was too late and had to loop round
@smilerbob Hi Bob. Actually I didn't mean to reply to you but put it as a new comment!! I'll just copy my comment and put it in the main list!!
@@johncranna9427 No worries John, thought it was a bit of an odd reply 👍
Have a good festive period if I don’t speak to you before
The only reason there's a queue is because traffic is backed up on the exit road, likely all the way to the next junction. So you may feel clever for skipping the queue, but all you've achieved is getting into the next queue quicker, and presumably that one's much longer. If you want to be clever, avoid getting into the queue altogether. Often the best way to do that is to take the train or get on your bike.
I've done it on a very rare occasion when the left queue is so long that it is worth doing it. It's just a loophole using the setup of the road; same as turning into a car park to avoid red lights. Its a bit of a dick move, but I think most people are just mad they didn't think of it 😅
The whole "Careless and inconsiderate" thing is really subjective. Be interesting to get a lawyer like BBB on it - I'd imagine you just have to say "I intended to use a different lane but realised it was wrong on the roundabout" or "When I saw the sign for the turn traffic was queueing in the left lane and stopping to wait to get in would be dangerous". Both of those are reasonable things that do happen, and you can't prove intent was otherwise.
@@pirateadam3686 yes I do agree I think it could be really difficult to prove it has been done intentionally
The 'not legal advice' answer BBB would give depends on which party you support at the election.
If it's ok for one person to do then it's ok for everyone to do, so it's ok for everyone waiting in the left lane to jump over to the right, and jam up the roundabout for all the traffic coming and going on the other three roads? of course not, makes no sense, the lane is there for a reason, you think you're special that you can pull your slingshot manoeuvre and jump the queue? what about a queue to exit a dual lane road or motorway, do you keep going until you get right up to the last possible moment then block your lane trying to get into the exit? what about in a supermarket when the queue is waiting for the checkout? do you come from the other direction and push-in to the front of the queue? If theres a queue for something, you join the back of it, it's very simple.
My "gob is absolutely smacked" on this one and boy have I learnt something on this. So before I get 'done', thank you for this kick up the arse and saving me from getting a ticket. Wow. My mind is blown. 👍🏻😄 BUT, more importantly for teaching me why it's not acceptable.
It may be deemed unacceptable, but that does not classify it as careless driving.
@@johncranna9427 this is from a police website.... "misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers" and why it's classed as inconsiderate/careless driving. A slingshot does exactly that as you should be queuing.
@@Richard_Barnes well I wouldn't classify the police as the arbiters of the traffic law. I saw an Ashley Neal video where a driver was pulled over by the police for using a merge in turn correctly where he passed a line of traffic, including the police car, and went to the head of the merge.
@@johncranna9427 It is not formally classified are careless driving but that is the risk you are taking. Just make sure that your licence can take the extra points. 🤣
"You don't have to do something illegal to be charged with inconsiderate or careless driving."
I totally get what you are saying there, but it implies that people are getting charged despite not breaking the law. There are plenty of situations (driving and otherwise), where a specific act is not illegal, but the context for the act may mean a crime has been committed. The slingshot may not specifically have been illegal, but if the manoeuvre was deemed to be careless/inconsiderate, then it was illegal and the driver could be charged under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act. i.e. they did do something illegal.
There is a roundabout near where I live where lots of people started doing this slingshot manoeuvre during morning rush hour because there was always a long queue in the left lane approaching the roundabout. With a campaign publicised in the local press, the police started putting a presence at the roundabout and certainly pulled people over - I don't know if they charged anyone though. I don't think the situation exists any more, because the priorities in the area have been changed totally.
🤔 Didn't know this was even a thing. Tbf I am yet to gain my license, but as a learner i can't quite see why you'd get in your feelings about it. Sounds more of a moral argument, but you can apply that to any action people take. It's like filming whilst driving. If I were a pedestrian I wouldn't want to be featured without consent on someone's UA-cam video... Inconsiderate? Maybe, but no laws have been broken. The instructors that teach 'slingshot' get balanced out by those that don't. It's a choise of driving courtesy, learners are often a victim of such choices.
@@MsAfrocomb1 my point is instructors are teaching something that could get you pulled over by the police and given 3 points on your licence. One you gain your licence if you get 6 points in the first 2 years you’ll lose it. How would you feel if doing something your instructor has shown you and encouraged, lost you your newly acquired licence?
@JamesSimpkinsADI Didn't realise you could get points for being uncourteous, dispite this not being illegal. The Police will be busy.
Technically you cannot be done for doing something not illegal. However, driving in a careless or inconsiderate manner is illegal. Just because something isn't illegal per se doesn't mean its not illegal.
I dont think its as clear cut as it should be, and bluntly the DVSA should be looking into this practice and guidance given.
The first senario is that you inadvertently find youself on a roundabout in the wrong lane and changing lanes at the point of realisation could be potentially dangerous. So going around the island again as far as i am concerned not an issue, far better than driving into a road rage situation or worse.
The second is the motorway exit slip road where the left turn is into single track highway, and traffic is backing up onto the motorway yet the right hand lane is empty. The question then becomes do you want a merge in turn situation on the motorway bridge or traffic qued on the motorway. In the interest of safety i would suggest the former.
However in normal circumstances it is an attempt to gain the system, and therefore a potential source of road rage.
Any instructor endorsing that behaviour is a disgrace to the profession.
I would definitely endorse that it's not a good idea to teach learner drivers. I don't agree that it is driving without due care and attention. The Highway Code says nothing about queue jumping being careless driving. It's mainly the manner in which you do it ie do you join the lane you should be in, in an unsafe manner.
@
"Rule 144:
You MUST NOT ... drive without reasonable consideration for other road users."
I would class queue jumping as lacking consideration for other road users.
"You don't have to do something illegal to be charged with inconsiderate or careless driving."
Yes, you do, otherwise you wouldn't be being charged with anything.
I've watched a few of your videos now and I'm increasingly of the view that you should not be posting these videos, nor teaching anyone to drive.
If you cause a collision while adjusting the heating in your vehicle, a perfectly legal thing to do, you _can_ be charged with inconsiderate or careless driving
The section 3 offence is a catch all for anything not explicitly defined elsewhere and the wording is quite clear
“If your driving falls below what is expected of a competent driver then you can be charged with the offence”
I think what he's trying to say is that you don't need to do something that is explicitly called out as an offence by some other legislation. For example, you don't need to be exceeding the speed limit or going past the stop line at a junction or crossing when the light is red.
Careless or inconsiderate driving is it's own offence and you can be guilty of that offence when doing anything that falls below the standard expected of a careful and competent driver. Any of the rules in the Highway Code can be referenced, not just the MUST / MUST NOT ones.
Before there were specific laws on using a mobile phone when driving, it wasn't 'illegal' to hold one when driving.
However, you could be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention.
This driving instructor is worth his salt. Probably the best I've seen on YT.
Consistently correct in regard to the law and the highway code, but also commonsense and just the right thing to do.
Watch the video again. James is very clear that he is referring to something being illegal or not within the context of the Highway Code.
Somebody mentioned that the Black Belt Barrister should do a video on this subject. He has! And he doesnt think that legally and to the Highway Code its ok!!
ua-cam.com/video/0pOQyBBNYxM/v-deo.htmlsi=qvV37zmJl3W1Obj4
I’m the first comment! 😉
Good lad!
You win a big massive boat!
@@WayneTulip-zm9gw I’ll do the yellow zig zag video soon my man!
No you’re not. You’re the first numpty to fail to make an actual comment.
You could get charged for texting well below the standard expected! 🤣