Low Cymbals Vs High Cymbals - Which is Better?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 13 кві 2022
- Check out my FREE 3-video mini-course, and get on the list for when I launch my coaching course: bit.ly/3vkFzCN
There's a cold-war afoot, and it's not what you think.
It's low-cymbal drummers vs high-cymbal drummers. Assuming you've got enough character and integrity to choose a side, I'd recommend either REALLY low, or just APPALLINGLY HIGH.
There are merits to both approaches. Low cymballers are often classic, stylish characters, and first principles thinkers. On the kit, low cymbals keeps things close together, and allows small movements.
High cymballers, though there's a long tradition, tend to be iconoclastic instagrammers, bent on world domination. But they won't balk if you wear PJs all day, or eat Chipotle for every meal. They seem like my kinda folks.
In practice, high cymbal kits make you feel ensconced within cymbals, and the larger distances between and among surfaces make playing a high cymbal kit more of a physical enterprise.
This debate would almost be settled, were it not for the unwelcome presence of a third contingent. The stackers...
Older drummers know that it is dictated by the degree of shoulder pain and degeneration.
Ride wrist fatigue, too.
The truth hurts!😂
Yup. Everything was cooler looking until about 35 and stuff hurt and actually because IAM stupid damage done with no chance or being 95 much less 💯. Wrists and fingers are still fine. Elbows not so much
How high are your cymbals?
John Stanier: Yes
How 'bout High Hi Hats? Atom Willard plays his around shoulder level.
Dave grohl above his head lol
If you play open-handed… you have to keep them real low. Mine are maybe 2 or 3” above the snare.
@@El_Bicho_Feo if you plan to record, the engineer will likely move your hi hats away and much higher. If you have a fairly light touch you may be able to get away with some physical sound barriers instead but 9/10 it’s better to just move the hi hats and make the drummer deal
Haha true, I'm one of those who loves to have the hi hats extremely high, same with the ride. Kinda like Willard or Derek Grant. It looks cool, takes getting used to doing fast patterns between hats and snare but now when I'm used to I have a hard time playing low hats as like the big room my left hand gets
Phil Collins played them almost at knee level
What about John Stanier? The REALLY high cymbal guy!?
I started out playing in the 80s so I hung ‘em high! Also all of the bass drums were 22” so one was forced to set up like Tony Williams or Omar Hakim. It was a real rarity to find a bass drum smaller than 20” out here in flyover country until the late 2000s. As smaller kits became more available (my go to kit is a Sonor Martini w/a 14” kick!) the cymbals came down in a big way. I had everything more or less level for over 10 years & really loved playing that way. HOWEVER - I am now returning to my high cymbal ways!!! Why? Well… you nailed it… it’s all about the rebound. I’ve been trying to master the Tony Williams Ride Pattern & quickly realized that it was much easier to get a consistent & controllable sound when my ride was up high. Amazing!! I just bought a kit with a 20” kick so it’s all gonna be moving up…
I am using a 15" floor tom modified as a kick.
Small bass drums suck
Have always placed my cymbals where I can reach them quickly and get the most musicality out of them. That usually means about eye level with a slight tilt. (This also makes a bit more room for other band members on a tight performing area).
Eye level sitting on the throne or eye level standing?
@@thecheeseman31415 On the throne.
Always been a low cymbalist. I also like compact kits and try to set them up as geometrical as possible. :D
I think it's just the short distances between instruments.
Man I love your videos so much. Not only for the humor, which makes for an enjoyable experience, but also for the unique content you provide. As a delivery driver, I could watch your "video essays" all day long and deep dive
I'm a keyboard player learning to play the drums, and I freakin LOVE this channel!!
Really enjoying your videos, Nate!
Insightful, I like the topic of this video and thee presentation of said material!
Thank you for this topic man 🙂 i love every second of this vid 🥁
Interesting. I vaguely thought about the nuances of both concepts. I feel I'll be a hybrid down the line. Really enjoyed this video. Gives a nice perspective.
Thanks for clarifying the cymbal issue. Your video are well done friend
Best channel on You Tube. The lessons are wayyyy deeper than drumming. I love this channel!
Brilliant! I put them where they're comfy but this video will be very interesting!
I remember seeing back in the 1970s Alfonse Mouzon with McCoy Tyner at the Village Vanguard with his black 1960’s Ludwig kit covered in stickers and his cymbals way way up high and practically at a right angle! He was a powerful and loud drummer, I never heard McCoy Tyner that night since I was sitting next to Alfonse’s hi hat. I remember McCoy coming off the first set and saying to Alfonse…..man, I can’t hear myself!
At 74 I'm playing with a 21 y.o. older soul guitarist; he describes his peers as guys who want to jump on the trampoline.
Putting my preference before watching the video: I prefer higher cymbals because they give better isolation from close mics, and it's more fun to swing my arms around (as you mentioned in the email)
Ok got to 3:50 and now I am represented
I play a large kit. It's necessary to have a mixture of low and high cymbals or my setup quickly becomes very uncomfortable. A lot of thought goes into "how do I usually use this particular cymbal and what height lends itself to that purpose?".
Another great video brother
Simon Phillips: My cymbals aren't that high
The cymbals: *shows picture of snoop dog
one reason I chose high crashes was to (hopefully) improve overall body posture and self-confidence to look up more, rather than staying glued down most of the time. I love playin with a medium to low ride (angled downwards) so I can crash into it
I use the crashs eye level but the ride low 😂 . What you said about recording is super true! When recording rock the engineer always wants the cymbals as high as they can be so they don't bleed into the other microphones
As I’m from Ukraine, the joke in the beginning hits much different than it could be :c
But thanks for your content; it quite helps me with my drumming which helps with not losing sanity 🇺🇦
This was fun to watch
Plus one for low compact kit setup. I keep everything as close as possible without touching. Although, I don’t dress nicely and never will…I do love a desert dry Cab, and I’ve been to Europe several times.
Fun fact: I was in Paris in 2018 staying in city centre…about 100’ from Sunset/Sunside…wondered in…Bad Plus was just going on stage. Best random night ever! Even got to meet and bs with them during set break and after.
I digress: low, tight and compact…love it.
Love this channel!
As you say, it kinda depends on the bass drum/rack tom situation, but I try to keep cymbals at or below shoulder height. Sometimes the main ride can be a bit higher and more tilted, if it doesn't force another cymbal to be too high.
I'm more concerned with rack tom height. I don't like having a large height difference between it/them and my snare (3" or 4" max), but I also don't like having to do the wide offset due to a large bass drum, because it increases the distance to the floor tom, which makes some techniques like crossover sticking and one-handed back-and-forth playing difficult. Small bass drums are advantageous here of course, but for most things, I prefer the sound of a 22", so it's a conundrum.
Hey, Nate! About course. Are you doing it in specific days in a year, or we can agree with some other time? Asking because rn have no access to the drums but I want soooo much to take this course this year
I have my hi-hat at shoulder level, because I like the clearence for the snare hand.
I had to modify my hi-hat stand with a much longer tube and rod to accomplish this.
This is great to reducing bleed in snare mic and also makes the hihat closer to overheads so you dont necessarly need a close-mic on it.
Feels like I'm finally at home, I have always disliked the limited height of most hi-hat stands.
This video is both thoughtful and funny!!
Omg and that cliffhanger ending!!
Sub’d after this vid. Loved it man.. btw.. cymbal stacker here! 🔥✌🏻⭐️💯🤪🔥 looking forward to the next iteration.
For a while (or perhaps still) there was a trend where the cymbals were tilted backwards. I never understood that.
My biggest issue with recording drums is the HH. Drummers often tend to play it very loud, especialy when fully open. And they position it too low and too close to the snare drum. That way not only is it too close to the snare mic, but also because of the crossed hands, the snare hits aren't as hard. But it's easier to play that way, for sure. It often ends up like having an additional HH microphone with no snare mic.
As a recovering rock drummer I've gone through the evolution of absolutely smashing the hihat, causing this problem, to eventually having a lot more "internal balance" when I play. It takes a lot of deliberate restraint (for me) to play the hihat a lot lighter, and ensure the left-hand backbeats are still delivered with the appropriate heft. It's taken me literally 20 years to master this, but recording is now a breeze.
For «intermediate» drummers, bettering internal balance is the single one thing that will have the largest positive impact on improving their sound, acoustically, amplified and on record.
It is astonishing how few drummers understand the simple fact that the cymbals takes VERY little energy to produce A LOT of noise, and it ruins everything for everybody.
The old timer engineers and drummers will tell you that the reason cymbals got up high at around the same time everything got really loud, and a close miced drum sound got desireable, was a desperate attempt to get cymbal wash out of the microphones.
Some of my faves are the minimalist kit and low cymbal bashers like Darren King (formerly of Mutemath). Would love to hear your thoughts on his style someday. Chris Cester from Jet too.
I play mostly rock blues and americana roots music. I keep my ride cymbal low but just high enough That it's a nice level. I have shoulder issues and I hate having to reach up to play ride. But my crashes are kept fairly high. like it old school. The look, the feel, and way it makes me play. I like to be able to lay into a cymbal but also play it light. I like my cymbals high enough I can do a big reach and crash it but also still play with the tip for softer dynamics. At a local festival up here in downeast Maine they would always get a country band as one of the nights acts of the week. One country guy had his cymbals up real high old school rocker style. I loved how he would do a big dramatic swat and lay right into the cymbal during a ballad. I like how it gets you raise the sticks and encourages you to be more show-y. But for lighter music like jazz, I can see why the low cymbals thing happened. For awhile even the drummers who played high cymbals in the eighties and nineties like Gregg Bissonette, Vinnie Colaiuta, and other lowered their cymbals right down when it became a trend. As if having them high was uncool. I agree that some drummers kept their cymbals waaaaay too high almost to the level that only the tip of their stick with their hand outstretched straight could reach it was a bit much, but I like mine high. Its feels and look right to me for my style of playing.
08:13 I'm still like wooow - great stuff!And now we have perfect idea!!
Chris Turner of Oceans Ate Alaska (metalcore band) does very low cymbals but in a very fast heavy technical sense. I see the benefit because he doesn't have to move far to get from one piece to the for how fast he plays
Great video Nate! And with the exception of my hi-hats, I'm a medium cymbal guy. My hi-hats are high like the name. High-hat. 🤣🥁❤️
both can look real flashy. i started out wanting to have them low and about the same height as the drums, then i realized i didn't have the finesse to pull that off given my style (or body shape, i'm tall), so i brought them waay up. i played like that for awhile but after tons of kit sharing at gigs (plus everyone in the practice space using my drums as well) so i brought them down to mid height. not as flashy but overall more convenient/versatile.
Nice intro, man! 😂 Otherwise - Great stuff! Greetings from Estonia!
Funny vid!! and YES, there are distinct playing styles assoc. w/each! Me, i'm a low rider - high(er) crasher.
It depends on wich set I play due to the size and setup of the drums.
Having said that, I try to have the cymbals at low and ergonomically placed as possible, without having them crashing into other stuff. I want them to be able to move freely.
Unnecessary high placed cymbals are just a gimmic.
Buddy Rich's ride cymbal was positioned very low against many other drummers set up.
If you want to see really high cymbals check out Aquiles Priester. And then there's the "behind you" crowd like Bobby Jarzombek or Sugarfoot.
I tend to set them up high enough to remove cymbal bleeding into the tom mics and sometimes I like to crash ride on the ride and that’s not to easy with a low sitting ride. I like to be able to crash on the cymbals but also ride on them comfortably as well. Plus my ride is a 22 inch so I gotta raise it a bit then tilt it so I can comfortably hit the bell without having to stretch so far.
I based my setup on the early Steven Adler with a big ride right over the 22" kick. Great access to the bell, and you can really crank on it. Two crashes at about shoulder level, maybe slightly below. So I'm a medium cymbal guy?
I think this is closer to how I set up too. Four piece kit (or five with two floor toms). Ride low over the kick and crashes high for maximum crashing. My hats are kinda high to so I can go right at the edge.
I’m a tall guy, often when I set up my kit, my most comfortable cymbal height (especially the crashes) often obscures my line of sight with the boss. So I usually have to bring them down.
Wow, this was very informative, also how about the toms? I feel very comfortable playing on toms angled inner and high, similar to Lars Ulrich Tama setup. However as trend progresses, i can see all are playing on mid level, which I find cool, but not really in my comfort.
And people need to remember there is no wrong or right when drumming. Drumming is an art and and should be done in a way that suits the individual playing.
It doesn't matter how you hold a stick, or where you place drums or cymbals.
Do what feels good for YOU.
Hello from Australia 🤘🏼
My whole kit is tight and low. I'm short and so are my arms. I can always use mics to increase my volume so I'm only concerned about getting around the kit quickly and smoothly--and that's why it's necessary to keep everything as close to me as I comfortably can.
I try to be a low cymballer, but I wear pajamas and have a 26" bass drum and 14" rack tom, so they end up in the medium range. If I raise my throne up and put pants on the lines get really blurry.
Always been a lower cymbal dude, but tell ya what, getting that ride cymbal high to put things UNDER it is an absolute lifesaver.
My hi hats are about 12 in from snare, cymbals are just a few inches above the kit, the closer to to object the faster to attack
Around eye level for me. With a slight tilt of the striking face towards me. Easy to reach, hit and, as Bill Bruford of King Crimson once said, higher cymbals around the kit give the audience the chance to see that you as a drummer are indeed actually doing something!
Low setup for me whether I play metal or jazz. I like easy access to the bells of all my cymbals and if I'm not playing anything melodic I can use the same stands to place splashes on top, saving space and setup time for live gigs. I will admit that I raise my cymbal setup for studio work since like you said it's a pain to get clear isolated sounds when everything is compact. There are also drummers who set up their entire kit in a silly way so it looks dramatic and difficult when they play simple pop songs like Matt McGuire for example, great drummer but.. yeah.
While I feel I can get more sounds out of my cymbals when they're set low, I miss the impact and smacking motion that high cymbals allow.
Also, stacks are the new octobans. Prove me wrong.
Like a fad? Yeah
@@HughMorristheJoker I've been using stacks since the mid-90s. When did this fad start?
Seems like mid to late 2000s, stacks starting becoming more popular
I play an expanded kit where it becomes a mix of both out of necessity so medium/in between gang rise up
Oh man... there's * another * kind of cymbaler that got completely overlooked here: the over-the-shoulder-ist (think Bobby Jarzombek, John Blackwell, etc).
Also, how can we talk about high cymbals without bringing up Ndugu Chancler or John Stanier?
I set up my cymbals somewhere in the middle. I want to be able to ride my crash and crash my ride. Hats I set medium low because I primarily play on the bow of the cymbals but still sometimes play on the edges for a sloshy sound.
I primarily play jazz, funk, and classic rock.
For me it's whatever height makes everything fit and is comfortable. That's been my only criteria; I have one high one, two low ones, and eight (holy crud didn't realize I had so many) in the middle plane.
I know that when the cymbals are set high...I end up chopping up a lot of sticks. So...depending on the size of the cymbal...you could do both high and low.
Well done. Indeed, well done.
I bang like crazy so i try keeping my cymbals as low as possible, so i can kinda adjust the situation. Close distance rocks too! Plus cymbals are supposed to not break so easily if they're low.
ngl atfirst i thought you meant low and high as in pitch.. lol what about the y axis cymbal set up?
Hmm that’s an interesting point about gravity and angles. Wouldn’t you conversely also get more advantage on the down, making it a wash? It seems to me like the extreme angles would be harder, not easier to play, though the relaxation argument is solid.
Interesting. My set up med/hi throne. Snare & floor tom level, w/ hats and ride cymbal 6”higher. Level ride tom 8” higher. 2 crash cymbals high- in arms reach without full arm extension -brighter fortissimo accents. An effect cymbal; china or med washy 18” big belled dark ride/crash angled above floor tom somewhere. For me good set up for Latin, rock or Jazz tunes.
I set up the ride cymbal the way Tony Williams taught me. The cymbal isn't "high", it's relative to where you hit the bow and the arm angle. He literally used my arm as a stick to play it. Then he got behind the kit and played the ride like it was no thang.
When tracking i do the high cymbal thing, for bleed and separation and live i do the low cymbal stuff, just because of the ease of playing
Great show 80/20. Thanks again. I'm a stacker
Mine are pretty much medium to high. I put them pretty slanted and higher up so my shoulders are completely relaxed and my forearms are pretty much parallel to the ground
lmao once you mentioned stackers, I knew Zack's in :D :D
I, as well as many others, have been playing low cymbals in hard hitting rock since the early to mid 1990s. It was largely about conservation of movement and leverage for me. See Zach Barocas from Jawbox fame as an example of hard hitting, low cymbal playing from the 90s. He wasn't the first, I'm sure. He probably took it from bebop players in the mid 1950s. Up until the early 2000s, the height of your cymbals had as much to do with what decade you learned to play as anything else. The 60s had mostly medium cymbals. The height increased in the 70s and 80s, then started going down in the 90s. Now that everything is retro, it mostly has to do with who you're drum heroes are, what's easier for you to play (based on your physical approach and style of music), and what you can afford. The idea that it "means" anything is kind of reaching (accidental pun) for something to argue about.
An interesting case to look at is Chris Turner, one of the best modern metal drummers that plays with his cymbals incredibly low
Nate was talking about just the human drummers.
Cliffhanger. Hnnnnngg. I always prferred them lower, but your playing looked more relaxed and intuitive on the higher kit. Good point about mic separation too.
I personally use high hihats, low crashes, a low stack, and mid height ride
You've probably heard this, but these kind of vids, I can actually watch while driving. It's great cause I can learn about drums but don't need my drum set handy to watch. Smart.
Please don't tell me you're watching UA-cam videos while driving...
I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming they meant “listen”.
@@johnjohnothan5927 Same!
@@johnjohnothan5927 well we do have self driving cars now. But, ya got me.
Did you miss to upload the little dope jingle ? Cause really, this little groovy sugar sample is a classic.. So far !
I've been a high cymbalist and a low cymbalist now i find that I'm a medium cymbalist, i like to set everything up so that my arms don't need to move any more than they need to to get the hits in :)
Bingo that's the sweet spot. That's how your body naturally will try to attack the cymbals I learned. Ride, same thing. Higher not lower to prevent restricting natural motion of your hands and bounce.
Eric Gravatt, who basically swapped gigs with Al Mouzon in going from McCoy Tyner to Weather Report, said in an interview in modern drummer that he first put his ride cymbal add an extreme angle and somewhat elevated when he was playing a show in DC in constricted quarters. He couldn’t get it to fit down low, so he raised it. Then he stuck with that. I’m guessing Al got a load of that and decided to run with it. As more people saw Al, it became fashionable to emulate him. Eric still plays with his ride cymbal up high. The point is that Eric did what he did for a specific reason. Reality, e.g., kit size, available space, our sizes, should probably govern our choices more than what someone whose playing we like does.
Grew up watching Prov rock and weather report, Bozzio, etc, cymbals almost vertical!!
Probably low to medium for me. I'm a tall guy, so my whole kit is bought up a little, so I don't hunch, or have to lower my seat, but my ride will be up a bit so I can wash it out easier, but my ride side crash isn't a whole lot higher, and my china is just over the floor tom, not at an angle.
But my hi-hat is up a little too, but not up so much that I'm not hitting the top on a standard stroke.
the hi hat is literally self explanatory 😉
How about the angle of the cymbals? Horizontal to vertical.
Yo real talk how do you use 22 inch rides as low cymbals cos i wanna convert but it obscures my rack toms haahah
im a medium cymbal guy and im gonna go cry in a corner now
also idea: do a video about low vs high toms. Nico mcbrain and virgil donati come to mind when i think of high toms also honorable mention: bill bruford with his "everything completely horizontal" setup
I always have my cymbals low, in studio or at rehearsals, but when I play a gig with metal band, they kinda force me to put them high, coz it just looks more energetic. It's quite uncomfortable otherwise.
I like how he shows Tomas Haake as an example like he has his cymbals a mile high. You know Eric Singer exists right?
Funny - what does it say when you're constantly changing, like me? :P My cymbals used to be super low, because it made me feel in control. But now I actually pay attention to ergonomics and stick angle my cymbals go higher and higher again. Also ensures I don't play with a very arched spine, which is killing for my lower back.
I think the video does gloss over one sound aspect - a cymbal that's mostly horizontal is more washy than a cymbal that's at a shap angle, the latter 'self-dampens' under its own weight and sound more focused (think Al Foster). I seem to remember Eric Gravatt plays his ride at a super steep angle for that reason. Conversely, some stoner/sludge/doom drummers play with very low ride cymbals, almost perfectly horizontal, to get maximum wash.
What an excellent point. I'll have to check this with my own cymbals angle
that's gonna make a lot less difference to simply getting a different cymbal lol
This feels like it was meant to include a David Cola cameo
Cranked!!! To the heavens! opens everything up so I can get a good solid swing at it
I like to have a low ride. I've been experimenting with a low ride, low crash ride on right /ride ride just over the ride, and high left crash due to mounted tom on bass drum. If i don't have a crash on my ride side, then going high ride height allows me more flexibility with it since i can crash on it more easily
China is usually always low with a stack just over it.
I have been playing with my ride about shoulder height or so high for years and it's far better man. You are literally restricting the natural motion and bounce of the stick with the push pull method hitting a ride that low. Your hand naturally gravitates toward any cymbal with your arm moving a bit up I am sure. It's like playing a crash that low, it goes against the natural flow of hitting your instrument and more then likely will cause them to crack sooner I bet as well.
@@wdrumz I don't disagree the technique is easier with the ride a bit higher. I do it depending on the situation. Usually for metal you don't want the ride to sound too washy so it's easier to control the sound if it's lower IMO
maybe with a thicker ride I could get the sound I wanted at any angle. not spending the $$$ right now
I know two metal drummers that are Low Cymbal players - Vladislav Ulasevich from Jinjer and Adam Janzi from VOLA
Great bands by the way 😊
The iconic Chris Rock "Oh wow" at the end 😂
I was sure you were talking about finger vs pick bass playing. 0:12
When and where will you be in Europe? & will you be in your PJs?
Honestly? I would say I’m in the high cymbal camp, but that’s because my drums are also higher than most people like them. It wouldn’t look like that ti most people, but I’m also 5’7 and like to be able to move to any part of the kit without throwing off my balance. I found the best way to do that is have most everything a bit higher up than usual, while maintaining linearity across drums and cymbals
Totally forgot the dudes who tilt their cymbals away from them, people who play their cymbals at the weirdest angles, those who have their cymbals in the weirdest positions, and the few who run their cymbals in the medium height range.
Isn’t it all really a function of Ergonomics in concert with the tools you use?
Low ride to the point of it almost hitting the floor tom. High crashes because I do a lot of angled crash hits.