Is Independence on Drums A Myth?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- Download your free transcription, and get a free drum course - bit.ly/independence-myth
Chapters
0:00 - intro
2:13 - this is not a critique of Drumeo’s course
2:55 - history of independence
4:04 - meta concepts
5:00 - when meta concepts are useful
7:01 - is independence taking the meta concept too far?
9:30 - so what’s the problem?
10:52 - but what about that John Riley thing
12:22 - outro in cringe Spanish
Trying to prove true independence feels like a free will discussion lol
lol let's get some people in an EEG 🤣🤣
In one sentence- work on coordination as it applies to the music you're playing and focus on genre specific ideas before adding purely abstract exercises.
Excellent work Nate. I love the renaissance man / polymath approach recently.
Side note - “iría”, “diría” etc is the conditional tense, not subjunctive. It’s often found with the past subjunctive in the “si” construction you used: “iría al cine si tuviera dinero. “(Or whatever you said)
Your outro is when you would use subjunctive : espero que les haya gustado este video.
Seriously though this is some of my favorite YT content. You deserve all the success
The idea of practicing stuff to generate ideas is an important one I think. Easy to lose sight of that. For example I play very little South American music in reality, but practicing and absorbing the sounds and rhythms from that universe provides me with a constant stream of improv ideas in other genres.
I just found your channel and watched the Ed Soph interview. This will be my new daily must check out. Great player, great educator. Thank you Nate. I'm a 62 year old pro drummer in Orlando. Ive been really going after my drumming in a time that I should be thinking about retiring. It's what keeps me alive. Your channel will be very inspirational and helpful for me.
I love how this lesson branched into the larger meta-concept discussion. The analogy to language was felt very useful.
So many of the channels I used to watch every day had their view/interaction numbers drop all the way off- and the whole time they have improved their presentation and knowledge. This is the first time I’ve watched you in years and this is 10x better than anything you used to make (which was still amazing content for drummers)
The algorithm is a sick, sick, cruel joke.
I like where you are going with this & all of the questions you raise are worth spending some time considering. Personally, I don't like the term "independence" as applied to drumming. I usually hear someone utter that word just before demonstrating a skill that is very dependent. It is a term that I never use with my students. For me, the more relevant term is "coordination." When I was in college, some 46 years ago, the book "4-way Coordination" by Marvin Dahlgren & Elliott Fine was required material. I pushed back hard & somehow got out of it, but the book stayed on my shelf. Some 40 years later, I pulled out the book again & determined I would force myself to get through it. I have to admit that it was totally worth my time. It was really a game changer for my linear playing, and I found that it was also useful for jazz comping & voice substitutions in funk grooves.
Another great thought provoking video. I'm (seriously!) Working on making my hands/feet independent from my head. Overthinking things is my problem. Keep up the great work!
As I progressed in my interest in playing polyrhythms, and I became able to improvise pretty freely while holding on to, say, playing an open hat note on every third eighth, I started suspecting that it wasn't "independence" I was developing, but rather the ability to recognize where X note on the bass drum or Y note on the snare will go relative to every third eighth note; or perhaps, even doing speed math to know where to put a note.
This theory I had seemed to be strengthened by the "newborn calf trying to walk" feeling that comes with an attempt to play a polyrhythm with a different subdivision or pattern; I can play some forms of 7:4:3 but a 7:5 still feels impossible, even after a fair amount of time trying to learn one. I think what actually happens is you develop a vocabulary of note sequences, and it gets broad enough that it can look like you have "independence" but it's really that the experience you gain allows you to just pull from a library as you go.
In fact, I've developed a mild form of _dependence_ ; my hat foot being on eighths or quarters often forms a reference that my bass drum foot uses to help with accuracy.
Anyway, I'm making this comment before watching the video, so now to see what your take is
Lol I had a very similar journey. I feel like this fits into the “pushing creative boundaries” category I mention, that includes the thing John Riley says at the end
Nate, aka the 80/20 Philosopher. Love it!
I'm actually enrolled for that drumeo course lol. I'll probably watch this video multiple times and revisit these concepts. Thanks, Nate!
Love the language and tongue twisting analogy Nate. Oh yeah, and those muddy looking but great sounding cymbals too.
Don’t actually play the drums but always love watching your videos for the story, editing, etc. Particularly enjoyed this one especially when you doing the tongue exercises haha ❤️❤️❤️
I've never been a fan of calling it "independence" because that has never been what it feels like to me especially during the learning phase. For example even that first basic rock beat I learned with eights on the hi-hat, kick on 1&3, and snare on 2&4. That is three things at once, but I learned it by playing one thing, "the rock groove" and identifying when my limbs played together or separately. Once I mastered that it isn't indepence I'm just playing one groove, and I'm sure no one would claim that if you've mastered that one groove that you actually have independance.
The next step for me is to move on to the next groove, perhaps kick on all 4. Then maybe the next groove is kick on & beats. Eventually you've worked through all the permutations of singles and doubles on the kick with a grid of sixteenths. This starts to look like "kick drum independence", or have you really just learned to play a bunch of grooves?
To me it is really the latter. Independence implies that if you could play something purely by itself that you should still be able to play that same thing while your other limbs are doing something different. For me that has never been the case. I have always had to first learn and practice what it feels like to play all of the limbs together. Of course the more permutations you have worked on the more freely you can play and shift between ideas giving the illusion of independence.
Nate’s on fire lately with these new videos. 💪
I think the point about the most efficient way to learn a beat is by learning that beat is very true. Swing independence is best learned by doing swing, however practicing independence as its own concept might help transferring that skills between different styles? Anyways, I liked the video keep up the good work!
Well, well, didn't see that coming: the Independence meta-concept breakdown. I got no caveats based on all you said; only caviar.
I'm a beginner music teacher (only 2 years in the game), and I must say, the John Riley atavism to your video solidified an intuition I had about this concept. Yeah, it definitely shouldn't be globalized. Lol.
On the other note i.e. "useful instances"---you have quite an economic way of looking at drums. Cost-effective decisions, and actions. Very nice video. Hopefully no one tries to swing your argument in the direction of morality here. Controversy. like theories, are needed at times. It brings, as John Riley said, "a new kind of control."
Peace.
I agree wholehearted with your opinion, it`s much the same as learning rudiments. It`s essential to learn them but ultimately they each need to be mastered individually and they are not want you will eventually end up playing.
Abrazos papa !!!!!!! Much love from Puerto🇵🇷Rico🥁✌️🥁💜
Just depends on your definition of “independence” the parameters don’t really matter, generally it seems that general consensus would accept it as independent. If you want to get heady about it, we aren’t independent from each other.. life forms.. the dirt.
Yes, I agree! I used to focus to much on drum exercises rather than actually playing on the groove. Big difference now
Training the muscle coordination seems to be key, but what seems to be more overlooked is developing the ears to hear how all the parts mesh in the highest fidelity. You mentioned downbeats and offbeats. I often wonder how drummers train their musical ear--many non drummers obsess over hearing notes and harmony, but we often leave rhythm and pulse in the dark. I'd be interested in how aurality works within the drummer's perspective.
When I ask non-drummers about rhythm--be it fellow guitarists, pianists, horn players--they all say that rhythm is something that you have to learn by "feel." Conversely, the books written on melodic and harmonic knowledge could circle the globe multiple times over. I honestly wonder what the state of jazz education would look like if we invested into the rhythmic aspect of the music for ALL instrumentalists--at least at the same intensity as melody and harmony.
My comment might seem off topic, but I think I am arguing semantics and the epistemology of music as well. Hell, I'm a school teacher for my day job--so I am always thinking about the learning process and the implications thereof.
Thanks, always provocative and interesting!
I still think it's just another common term in drum lingo, that has meaning and can be useful in education etc. We can use it to refer to things we all do but the mistake we make is seeing it as referring to a specific set of chops which we must learn in order to achieve 'real' drummer status. Young drummers are often seeking those conceptual 'keys' which turn them into drummers. That's not how music works.
I think it's way more confusing how there's a conflation of being able to play various beats on each limb against one another, for example polyrhythms with each limb, and instead being able to play whatever phrase you want, when you want against other beats one might be playing.
I'd personally call the former coordination and the latter independence.
All of the click baity things aside, I think that there is significant commonality to playing independently in the various genres as you pointed out. But, I do agree that it's probably more helpful to play snare comp independence in jazz if that's what you want, kick drum independence in funk if that's what you want, etc.
And, I'm signed up for that drumeo independence course also. I suspect it's actually going to be about coordination, not the kind of independence I'm talking about?
My hot take is that playing simple stuff with a crazy meteonome variations is way more important that practicing complicated wtuff with the metronome on a quarter note
Sounds like you’re one of us 🤣🤣
Hmm. It’s not so much that “independence” doesn’t exist, but that we often don’t have a thoughtful understanding of what it means and how to apply it.
Fortunately, the great ones before us took care of that, and you explained it perfectly. I always dig a good drum history lesson. 👍
🇪🇸 Ojalá tu canal fuese en español amigo 👏
Saludos desde Cáceres
Hi Nate. Learning the "Chapin Independence" approach enabled me "no boundaries" and creativity as a Drummer. Thanks!
What book is he referring to?
@@Drummersatx Advanced Techniques For The Modern Drummer, by Jim Chapin.
@@tomtomboy6471 awesome! Just ordered a copy. Thanks a bunch!
the dunning krueger 😂 feels realler every day man
also thank you for those chops videos theyve been helping heaps
I think "coordinated independence" is a more accurate description of the meta concept. What good is limb independence if there's no coordination that results in a rhythm that serves to support the music that other musicians are playing? The 1 argument I can think of for practicing coordinated limb independence on it's own, is that is less about the physical movement of the limbs and more about training the brain to do a complicated physical tasks that result in more complex rhythm & musical expression.
True, but you might do that more efficiently by just practicing the specific types of coordination of the various types of things you have to do;)
I agree, people place way too much emphasis on 'generalised' independence systems
This totally unlocked my brain! Thank you!
Wait a minute.... I didn't hear a Spanish whistle at the end! 😂
an interesting aside Look up George Marsh, he came up with a motion concept, wrote a few books on the subject
thanks ralph
I studied with George in college at UCSC. I wasn’t ready for his stuff. I should revisit
I was older when I went to college luckily. I ad been on the rd etc for long time before coming back to school. Really enjoyed his input lots to offer
Good ideas, but i guess the main problem so far is lets say i want to be a studio player. How to be great at every genre, with the independence you speak of that is in the slot in a musical way with dynamics, form feel etc. reading chops, ability to transcribe read anything learn everything quick if charts or none create on the spot,. I have learned a few grooves in a lot of styles, Rock, Funk, Country, Swing, Bebop, Hardbop, Ballads all styles, Gospel, Christian Music, Cuban, Brazilian, Classical reading, Rock, ,Hard Rock, stuff, but to be next level at all of them read them transcribe them have independence and all this stuff. Is this what your suggesting? You have a method for that? LOL I am old has taken a long time to just be ok at all of this. ;)
I have so many questions. Among them does the type of studio gig you’re picturing even exist? Who plays all those styles like a native? What’s your current level? If you want to speak further shoot me an email. Or reply to the email where you got the link to this video
Probably not on a gig like that exisiting.. my main thing is how to be great at the zillions of styles there are with a killer slot... I used to be pretty good... was playing with 30 year Olds when I was 23 but it was also not hard music.. Santana boss novas stuff rock... was a pro from that age to 40 or so... do a day gig now... I'm old like I say
13 not 23
Over 65
@@8020drummerGuy like that exists, his name is Gary Novak and he's literally the only person in the world that does all that 😂
Totally agree. Independence defined is not needing help from another. When I play my brain is autonomous to my interdependent body. My body is dependent on my brain telling it what to do. Dependance is just a bulloney concept someone made up to make themselves feel more gifted. If I can play eighths on the hats and quarters on the kick and sixteenths on the ride thats not independence its called playing the drums.
Sometimes I can play the notes to a new concept/pattern fairly quickly, but it does always seem that to finely get it to groove, I almost certainly have to go back to check pattens and core beat concepts. Global independance may teach your arms and legs to be in different positions relative to each other at different times and velocitys, but drums sound better when the pattern is formed into a groove and starts flowing. imo
loll i guess do pianists and guitarists just practice every every single permutation of 12 tone sequences? idk what the word for describing their version of this aspect of fluency is - but it's the similar concept, like why waste time tryna learn everything so you end up learning nothing?
i guess i needa find the line and make sure i don't fall into that deceptive rut where i end up doing useless things that just make me feel productive while wasting a ton of energy, W video Nate
I don’t think that’s the subjunctive tense, the one example you had included the imperfect subjunctive but neither had the subjunctive tense. Both examples had the conditional tense “I would”
Entonces, me dices que no crees que sea el subjuntivo?
[yea good catch. It’s been 20 years since I studied grammar but I should’ve run that by somebody who knows 🥲]
Nah I def think there is foundational independence - meaning feeling comfortable playing any limb on any part of the grid. All the Dawson syncopation exercises and dahlgren and fine do just that. And that makes learning more ostinato based coordination much easier since every limb has already played that if that makes sense
Give me one example of a specific application necessary to real world playing that you wouldn’t learn more efficiently just practicing on its own
I’d argue learning foot patterns is easier if you have done the Alan dawson 8 triplet ways exercises. At least for me. Trains your feet to feel comfortable all over the 8th note grid, so not as much of a mental exercise to play like a tumbao or a baio or whatever.
i'm still working on getting 80% of the info from your vids by watching only 20% of it
How’s that going
No etecteria? For shame. And good video too!
Creo que hiciste un gran trabajo con tu outro.
aaaaw demasiado amable. gracias.
It’s pretty obvious to me that when we say independence we really mean pattern recognition training. I stand by the idea that if you haven’t practiced, it won’t come out in the gig or rehearsal
Am I right to hear a New Zealand accent in my head as I read this?
Seems to me the answer to most "learning" type skills is to ask the question can all of your favorite top notch drummers do it...well, if the answer is yes...
What is “it”?
@8020drummer in this case it, is to be very adept at independence.what really good, drummer isn't good at it, even if it's within their own context, ie Copeland?
@@teachingbeats I agree. I’m not sure how that contradicts my thesis tho…
⁰@8020drummer im.not really disagreeing with you, but I was thinking of things like listening and how it relates to playing a better groove. It had always seems to me like the independence " monsters" often had an amazing pocket(ala Simon Phillips). It has seemed the the more obscure things you can hear and play, allow you to park your groove car in a tighter parking space. Keep up the great vids! Btw- do you remember Bobby Rock? Truly some of the most obscure independence examples from waay back.
@@teachingbeats Nelson
🎉🎉🎉
Heyyyyyyyyy good for you brotha to learn spanish la lengua de la madre tierra Congratulation
Divertimiento constante
Gracias
True independence is the ability to play quarter note triplets against quarter notes. Playing multiples of 2, or triplet derivations of them, against 2, or other multiples of 2, is not independence, because the limbs are playing subdivisions of the same beats.
Independence a false name for coordination, it sounds like each hand or limb is playing independently when they are actually working together to create polyrhythms.
This is an interesting question. My opinion is most of what is called independence is nothing more than training in coordination. For kit playing nothing more than Ted Reed on steroids. But then what is going on with those few players that can play in the space of a half note; triplets with one limb, quints with another, septuplets with another and then nonuplets with the last? Add to this those even fewer drummers that can play this with each limb at a different tempo. Neuroscience studies on musicians have been done on musicians for years but formal studies on drummers hadn't been done until 2019. Studies showed the effects music has had on musicians compared to non-musicians. Drummers were shown to be in a league of their own. Particularly in the amount of brain mass between the right and left hemispheres of the brain. Is independence a real thing or not? Who knows? What would it be like if we were all naturally ambidextrous?
Duolingo has 24 hours to respond
I prefer the term interdependence.
LIKE piano, we exhibit a CO-Ordinated inter-dependence.... [Jim Chapin circa 1948] ..
It’s different from piano, imho. In piano you have shapes and motions that generalize actors genres more than in drums. But I think chapin is right within the jazz swing lexicon
Interdependence 😊
I'd go far as to say independence doesn't really exist. It's all interdependence. It's an illusion.
Estepario is a scammer (doesn’t elaborate how/why)
skill issue
I’m confused - did you watch the video? When did Nate dub Estepario a “scammer”? He made a counter-argument to Estepario’s point that independence will take drummers to the next level. Are you mentally a two-year-old?