Siege Onager or Siege Engineers?
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Who doesn't love a good onager shot? Let's investigate the two major onager upgrades, what each are giving you, and which one is better.
1:05 Siege Engineers
1:50 Siege Onager
3:40 Siege Engineers range benefit
6:10 Damage by each
9:45 Buildings
10:10 Final thoughts
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Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsou...
Ontage Theme: • Thrillseeker 1 by Gust...
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition
I always wanted to be an engineer, but my dream job has changed after watching this. Now I want to be an onager! Thank you for this life-changing video!
Overrated. As an engineer youre going to be told what to do by lesser business management majors and economic majors. While you sweated your ass off in school. Your boss will %99 of time be an idiot
Hee-haw!
You can't be an onager, but maybe you can be an onageer (onager engineer)
Hee haw
@wtfpwnz0red wdym, my uncle used to tell me I can be anything I want :(
He is now an Apache attack helicopter now btw
You forgot the most important stat increase in the SO upgrade:
style by about 30%
6:37 Units reforming the lines after every shot is honestly great presentation.
suicidal units
All for the sake of math
A suggestion for future video topic: what qualifies as a battle event in the timeline after a game, signified by an axe. No one seems to know.
That’s a good question
he covered this slightly years ago
And? @@dontspikemydrink9382
@@dontspikemydrink9382 do you remember which video that was ?
yes, it is alarms@@qsywastooshort7451
The short version seems to be that Siege Onagers is the stronger tech, but it's more expensive and only affects onagers. Siege Engineers is much cheaper to pick up and affects all siege weapons. If you're a civ that gets both, you'll probably get Siege Engineers first simply because it's cheaper and doesn't cost gold, but if you're making heavy use of onagers then Siege Onagers is definitely worth getting later when you have the gold to spare.
Nice summary.
As a Bulgarian Player Siege Engineers is a total steal. Plus I usually have plenty of wood as I'm spending my resources on horsey ladz
another thing to take into account is that SO takes VERY long to research at 150 seconds (50% longer than Chemistry, probably longest tech in the game?) while Siege engineers takes 45 seconds and can be research simultaneously with onager.
Yup. A cheap upgrade that gives the added range for Mangonels already on the field is a big improvement for the start of Imp. If you Imp first, that range + Onager tech could be a huge difference maker before Siege Onagers is even available.
Frankly Spirit one of my favorite videos of yours is an old one. The video where you took a look at all of the wonders each civilization had and compared their designs to real life historical buildings. Seeing as how there are more civs you could take a look at the new wonders.
It's really funny to me thinking about Onagers today and how good they are because as a kid the AI made me think that Onagers were really weak. They cost much and are easily taken out by fast melee units but most importantly never really landed good hits because of the AI's perfect micro. The only way to overwhelm the AI's micro was to spam unreasonably many Onagers so that it couldn't possibly handle so many shots at once.
Against human players though... I've had so many satisfying shots and eaten a devastating one for each in return :D
Nah, as a kid I liked Onagers because they were great at dealing with mass of units attacking the walls. And I love walls.
I feel that , the pain of never hitting a singel Onager shot vs AI, truly made me think the unit was useless
@@Bzhydackas a kid I REALLY LIKED walls. I built too many walls and it leads to AI suffered from lack of resources.
As a Kid I liked Onagers way more than Trebs, because when I was a kid Trebs didn't Auto-Pack and Un-pack. You had to click the button. As a Stupid Kid, I was absolutely incapable of that much extra Micro, so Onagers it was. Now that we have the Auto-Pack/Un-pack for Trebs, Hell yah, gimme them Trebs.
as a kid i hated onagers because it was supposed to be a siege weapon, yet it sucked against castles. yes, i was pretty young, and didn't understand english at all.
Only OGs remember Spirit's love for "Ontages" in the early day videos.
Onager vs Onager is like a small tank game simulator. It just brings something different to the table.
Great "ontage", Spirit. If you could do a 30 minute version of shots like that I'd play it on repeat.
I have been waiting for the return of the Onager Ontage
I mean, you didn't really need to do anything but an onager compilation to make us all thrilled... 20 minutes of BOOOMS please :D.
Anyhow, I will now resume the video and watch the rest of the good stuff. Cheers!
I really underestimated how strong the Siege Onager upgrade is on its own
Me too! Every time I see the upgrade I think, "that's so expensive, it can't possibly be worth it." This video is making me reconsider that stance. Pointing out how much extra damage it can do in terms of resources has made me realise that a handful of good SO hits can actually pay it back. Still a lot for 1v1 but worth keeping in mind at least.
I only ever intermittently play AoE 2, but I never fail to watch new spirit of the law videos. They’re just so well produced and detailed. I wish he could cover other games that I actually play more.
It's probably hard to quantify, but the fact that after all of that, you concluded that you'd still often get SE before SO even in team games is telling.
1000 gold is a very hard pill to swallow lol.
It makes a lot of sense for the mangonel line upgrades to cost a ton of gold, since it's like you're investing into better engineering, but I've always wondered why the ram line upgrades cost a ton of food instead. It's like slapping meat onto rams
more persons to move heavier weight
On the topic of blast radius, could you maybe make a video analysing how many land units each level of the demolition ship line has to hit in order to be cost effective?
Attacking archers the demo ships can quickly pay for themselves, since archers are expensive and have low HP, so many of them die in the area of effect of the high-damage demo ships with their blast radius much bigger than that of petards.
Siege units too might be a good trade because siege is just so expensive, even if you can only hit one of them per blast.
With cavalry, it could be harder to get good trades because cavalry units don't stack that closely and have a lot of HP.
Still, on hybrid maps, I believe there could be enough good trades that a skilled player could probably get into a situation of using that it could be an interesting topic for a video.
Where I'm not sure any more is if the high blast damage and blast radius are enough to make a well-placed demo ship a good anti-trash unit with bottomed out market prices, because that gold adds up fast. Against skirmishers, it might still work, and skirmishers are also not too likely to be able to intercept a fast moving demo ship.
Siege onagers are actually very useful in one of the Hautevilles campaign scenarios. In the one where the enemy soldiers heal very quickly until you take out their military buildings, the enemy soldiers don't have a lot of armor, so I took advantage of the high damage of the siege onagers that Sicilians get, and did my damage all at once, when I realized I could do that. As a result, the enemy soldiers just died, and couldn't heal, because there wasn't enough time to do that.
Man, I was having a bad day at work. Saw the UA-cam notification of the video and immediately took a 10 minute break to see it and rest, ten seconds in the “Ontage” made me smile. Thanks Spirit
Definitely a joy seeing the ontage again! I've really missed it lately!
Hey there spirit. I was just reading a post in reddit about cataphract vs. samurai, and was wondering: could you do a video about the current performance of the samurai against the melee UUs?
The pierce damage dealing ones aren't necessary, since it's basically wether the sams can close the distance or not.
But with the melee ones, a lot of people think sams can only deal with infantry UUs, whereas they're actually quite decent against many of the cavalry ones too, even with the stat disadvantage.
Problem is : they won't be able to catch the cavalry ones, so...
@@RoulicisThe I think that's the main reason he specified melee. A mangudai can micro to kill the samurai while keeping its distance, but a cataphract cannot.
Except for manguday or other cav archer UU i dont see the problem
halbs are slower than cav too...@@RoulicisThe
Agreed. But the question is more stats based than anything practical. Also, at low elos players use more UUs rather than the actual civ army comps, and micro way less, so it could still matter.
The thread I was reading had a couple answers that explained how samurai actually win strictly on resources against catas without Logistica, and that would definitely be a trap against a player who didn't know that beforehand and just threw his cata army against a bunch of sams thinking it'd be an easy win.
Kinda similar thing against Teutonic Knights. TKs win 1v1, but on resource balance, they lose.
It's mostly just a curiosity thing tho.
Etk vs elite samurai is a diff thing, since no teuton wouldnt use palas with them in any fight
deutschritter got faster, but range is still the weakness(teuton scouts can fill that role too, but no one gives them the credit they deserve)@@AuronDdraig
The one comparison I would've like a mention of is getting more onagers vs. Siege onager.
idk why im here so early, or why this was on my homepage, but me and my dad still play this game from time to time. ever since the og AOE 3
“From time to time” is enough for the seemingly hyperactive Google algorithm.
Onager shots are so cathartic. Love when the pros get that game ending shot that wipes an army.
Thank you for testing it and the clear numbers you got as a result.
This is a question I often wondered about, too.
Researching Siege Onager has the side effect of making your melee units give an unsettled sideward glance as you tell them to charge.
even more so when its your 600 elo BF ally.
If you ever gotten in a closed map treb war and castle/bombard tower vs. siege shootout, you'll always happily trade away your Siege Onager tech for Siege Engineers. That +1 range is incredible if the opponent does not have it.
Yes, it's hard to put a number on how good a range upgrade is, but subjectively it seems to be very important in a lot of cases
Be aware: In Forest Nothing with 256 tech you will overflow on damage if you get siege engineers enough, making trees unkillable because you keep increasing their HP. Got them to 4 Million. That is wonderful to prevent being cut through. If you then decide to break the trees at some point, keep researching. It loops around, so at some point they will do a load of damage to trees (buildings and units) again.
Wow I didn't realize Siege Onager was THIS much of an improvement. Thank you for the enlightening video.
I'm really happy to see the ontage again
So for saracens and Ethiopians, its worth investing in 2450 resources because combined with their own unique techs they deal a lot of damage and even can one shot a lot of units and deals more damage to building.
Dravidians kinda have cheap siege but I never seen anyone use siege as Dravidians lol
@@VickyCruz as far as I know, Dravidians don't have cheap siege. Only Slavs, as far as civ bonus goes.
@@TheKobasen Siege weapons have -33% wood .. you can see that in aoe 2 tech tree
@@VickyCruz ah yes... They added that mid patch.
I forgot about it.
Outages are one of favourite parts of this channel!
Perfectly addressed the question I've been struggling to answer for a long time, thank you SotL
The onager montage the Ontage!!! Please have mercy😂😁
There is something therapeutic about seeing the onager shots.
For a short follow up, when do you get Counterweight (Saracens) or Torsion Engine (Ethiopians)?
9:25 "Reources" Easter egg
Awesome video man! This was very interesting.
Gotta love ontage :D had to check that music and now its on my playlist
SO seems to only be worth it as a first upgrade if you're planning on not building trebs but doing a siege push instead. Which is a very niche situation.
SO is "objectively" better, because it can cut more trees in one shot
Played against my friend today and won! Thanks for the tips man
SotL + morning coffee is such a mood
I think in a team game, which you prioritize probably depends on you and your allies civ since you're probably going to be focusing on what your combined armies will look like. Like, if my ally has mediocre or even bad siege, and I'm Celt/Mongol/Ethiopian, I feel like getting siege onager first may be the way to go because clearly I'm gonna be the siege guy and siege (along with infantry, cav archers, and foot archers respectively) is some of the main things I bring to the team. I mean obviously get both but, I'm just saying. Especially since these are both Imp techs. I'd hope that by Imp, we'd have our trade line already going and gold SHOULDN'T be an issue, assuming enemies arent being super annoying/aggro.
but there are other factors to look into, so it depends.
Onagers would be great for besieging bases if they had more range, less accuracy, 3 projectiles would always hit the target and another projectiles would hit something else cause extra damage to area. it looks great in stronghold game where mangonel brings lots of destruction. It could be also great defensive unit.
i couldn't care less about the minmaxing since i don't play age, but man i stayed for those juicy shots :D
New SotL video within 30 minutes of a Hera video about SotL??? 👌
Hey Spirit Of The Law, Guys Here!!!
Siege onager upgrade is nuts, my god. I never knew there was an upgrade giving so much value in the game.
Onagers also get extra range when attacking farms so that extra 1 range can make a pretty big difference
OK fine, I'll finally click the subscribe button for that Onager intro.
We. Need. An. Onager-tage music video!
WAIT, NO, CONTINUE THE MONTAGE! I WASN'T FINISHED
Spirit, I know is ton of work to make footage of micro. And is very difficult to get a correct representation of a true battle in a lab enviroment.
Why you don't make a micro tournament with subcribers in different levels of play, then shoot every battle and get the result from there? Would be very fun to do such a tournament and also very realistic.
Imagine compare the effect of this 2 upgrades in a 1000 vs 1000 elo or in a pro level? Would be awesome!!
This topic feels off. I get the comparison being made, but this is like asking if Champion or Plate Mail Armor/Blast Furnace is better. They're all Imperial Age techs but Champion/Siege Onager have a prereq tech (Two Handed Swordsman an Onager) that must be researched first and the supporting techs will affect units already on the field more quickly.
There's no doubt that Champion and Siege Onager are the better techs, but at the point you would be researching them, you may already have the support techs for your units. You can also research these other techs simultaneously while the unit upgrades are coming in making them a quicker power boost to your existing army.
Tactically, if you have units on the field already, Siege Engineers/Plate Mail Armor/Blast Furnace is going to be most beneficial right when reaching Imp. If you are tech switching then Siege Onager/Champion may get priority as the improved unit means more than buffs for non-existent units on the battlefield.
Question, is the aoe increase by siege onager for attack ground , more big than a Titel effektive Range?
Wish you had briefly talked about the mangonel
Onager montage got me hype as fuck 😎
were siege engineers tech added bcz of SE/CA guys?
Upgrading the boom is certainly more promising than improving the tool.
I love you Spirit of the Law
This was visually very satisfying.
i respect the fact that you still use the same song for the same joke since like 2018 or 2016 lol
Peak AOE Content no matter what. Your channel and some incessant reading of the AoE2 wiki are the reason i remember all but like 3 tech trees by heart lol
Neither matters when you only ever play against AI and they instantly micromanage every unit out of the way in less than a second :,)
For me, Siege Engineers are better because the Onagers with SE actually outrange SO without SE, also SE doesn't cost gold, SO upgrade does.
Basically, SO upgrade is better mainly against mass Elephants/Paladins, because then we need damage against units and splash. And in endgame (Paladins, Elephants etc.) you can afford SO upgrade. (Durability against archers... yeah, but most players can't really micro 60 Arbalests against 15 Onagers XD)
SE on the other hand is used by other Siege units (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it affects Ballista Elephants too), it's cheaper, and adds range, so important in siege wars.
Also, using 1 Onager per test is a litte bit inaccurate, as you usually want like 10 if you really go for this unit, and then the SO upgrade doesn't matter much against a lot of weaker units.
EDIT: Ended watching and got surprised by how close my thoughts were to SOTL's.
Also note - from Imperial Unique Techs, Ethiopians already get splash, Saracens get damage, and Koreans get extra range, so that's to be counted too.
SE affects units already on the field with a faster to research buff that also provides some survivability in the way of more range. SO is a massive time and resource investment considering you have to get Onager first and then SO.
Unless you are tech switching without mangonels in play, SE will almost always take priority to be researched alongside Onager to boost your standing army the most in the shortest time.
i would love a video comparing the different onager techs to one another. like if ironclad is useful?
but with the cost diference you can make more Onagers to compensate for the lack of Siege Onagers
True. However (Siege) Onagers are typically a unit where after reaching a decent number (6-8) adding more will not increase much in effectiveness since 3-4 Onagers already oneshot most units in a wide radius. So I'd rather have 6 Siege Onagers (and have the upgrade researched) than have 15 Onagers.
I think Siege Onager is more of a tech to break stalemate in team games, where Onager is one of the most important tool to win games running at max economy and population.
In most other cases, Siege Engineers is much more practical (especially since it also buffs trebs etc)
@@zeroyuki92 I agree it's more practical. Almost a must-have for anti-building siege units for the extra bonus damage
I'm a simple man so I always enjoy some testing and statistics, but I don't think this comparison in particular surprised a single human on the planet
My best ever play in AoE was in a 3v3 game, where I eliminated 20-30 paladins with a massive Siege Onager volley. Two minutes later it was a GG for the other team.
I think you sre underselling the effect of the greater blast radius.
Just look at what happened to the longbows.
I have now the question is: what is the ration of ressource for gain?
range and the defense upgrade ofcourse hard to judge, but like: for building dmg how much do you pay more to get the extra dmg?
Dope intro music
This is so nerdy. Love it
You are the proof that you can throw whatever stupid subject into our faces, that as long as its well produced and entertaining you can make it on youtube.
5:51 Siege Onagers won that one! I call that a foul! ;-;
The intro got me.
In 1v1, Siege Engineer is more important by far. Siege Onager and Heavy Scorpion are useless. In team games, both are useful but Siege Engineer gives more value.
Didnt realise how strong the siege onager was compared to the onager
The strange thing where units with multiple shots have all but 1 of the shots deal only 1 damage really annoys me. It makes having multiple shots a much less interesting mechanic. Personally I think the damage of a unit should be split completely evenly across all shots.
No, you don't. Say a unit shoots 5 arrows. 1 does 11 damage, while 4 do 1 damage. To an unarmored target this is 15 damage. If you split the 11 damage among 5 arrows that's 5x2.2 = only 11 damage. Let's say you're even talking about the 15 damage split among 5 arrows. 5x3=15 damage to unarmored targets. So no difference. Cool.
Let's take that same situation against an enemy with 4 pierce armor. 1 arrow does 11-4=7 damage. 4 arrows do 1 damage (because there's a minimum of 1 damage). That's 7+4x1= 11 damage. Now split 15 damage between 5 arrows. That would be [If < 0 then "1" (3-4)]x5=5 damage, doing less than half the damage (in that specific situation).
You NEED a heavy hitter for armored targets. This is a truth among any type of game with damage reduction (or at least flat damage reduction).
@@curlywhites perhaps armour should be a percentage instead of a flat number then.
And or units with multiple projectiles should be rebalanced so they're still useful despite being affected more harshly by armour.
Or the multiple projectiles should all deal 0 damage, and then have an invisible explosion that covers the area where the projectiles fell that deals the damage once.
It's still unsatisfying even if it's necessary for this specific way it's implemented.
@@cloud_and_proud 1. Percentage based armor would be interesting.
2. They are still useful. 20%-50% (100%+ in extreme cases) more damage is still useful (depending on base damage and pierce armor of opponent). going from 11 damage to 15 damage is 36% more damage. Even things like skirmishers throwing an extra javelin could do 100% (going from 1 to 2 damage per shot) more damage if they're targeting infantry with, what, 4 pierce armor?
3. Seems weird. I think I understand (calculate the total damage of secondary projectiles and apply it all at once). But it doesn't seem....intuitive.
4. Maybe. Do some tests. Maybe if you see the different performances of mult-projectile vs single-projectile units you'd see it differently. I don't know.
@@cloud_and_proud That's completely different game then. What is wrong with you?
Tbh, I rarely use the mangenal line at all. They do a lot of damage but in my experience they're really more of a hindrance to my war effort than an asset. For me they just slow down my offensives, do too much collateral damage and take too much micromanagement to use effectively. They're somewhat expensive too so the juice just isn't really worth the squeeze for me.
It is much more useful in higher rank where it's the most effective tool to defeat archer blobs (which pretty much can only be defeated by Onagers if given enough mass)
Thanks!
Still learning everything there is to learn about AoE knowing full well I am not going to play it any time soon
Hey Spirit...How Aoe2 conquerors ( Old game ) AI multiplayer?
Good video sir.
You ask the good questions.
360 no scope from those Onagers
Siege Onager counters everything! - TWest, 2023, definitely
Came for the math, stayed for the ontage
How does trebuchet deal 424 dmg to a castle?
Treb deals 200+250(-8 since castles have 8 armour against building class bonus dmg) and - 11/12/13 depending on non upgraded/masonry/architecture= 431-429
Or am i missing something here?
Don't forget the castle's 11 pierce armor and that masonry/architecture add +1 pierce armor on top of their 3 building armor. The treb also has +1 attack from chemistry.
It ends up being 200 (attack) + 250 (bonus) + 1 (chemistry) - 11 (castle's pierce armor) - 8 (castle anti-building resistance) - 6 (masonry/architecture anti-building armor) - 2 (masonry/architecture pierce armor) = 424.
@@SpiritOfTheLaw I didnt forget the castle 11 p armour but totally forgot that masonry and Architecture gave +3 building armour.
Thanks for clearing it up
Showing only 1 onager is best Showing how these upgrades effect the sneaky single in trash wars
No archers were damaged during the filming of these tests
You know what would be good? A carpet attack ground. Like, Onagers attacking in a line.
Very compelling arguments, too bad my onagers tend to kill more of my own units, so it's siege engineers for me lol
I beseech thee spirit of the Lord, bring back your old intro....or atleast some of it/different version, I used to watch ur videos just for that amazing intro
Ok but did Mongo the mangonel from hell did eventually became an onager?
The ontage is back!
It's back and started laughing 0:09
I remember seeing the Ontage Montage before but I couldn't remember for the life of me which video it was in. Any kind soul can help me with this one? :D Thanks a bunch!
If I'm not mistaken, it is in one of the civ reviews, koreans probably. I used to look for the Ontage every once in a while, yeeears ago haha
So your saying, I should have siege onagers and siege engineers? Sounds good to me lol
that ontage at the beginning 11