How to make an awesome board game!

Поділитися
Вставка
  • Опубліковано 5 вер 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 139

  • @sMike54
    @sMike54 3 роки тому +13

    Hi, I would like to see some videos about production and more economical aspects about game production and industry. For example what are options of self productions, what companies can do it, how expensive it is, how to set a final price of the game to not be overpriced, how to set kickstarter campaign correctly, how it works when I want to find a publisher, how to deal and communicating with them, what is usual profit share with publisher, what are usual mistakes during publishing, how to marketing board games etc... more practical things after getting a game to the playable and satisfiing version. I'm from Czechia and our board game market is not that developed as yours, but we are getting into it and I think it will be tredny as yours in a few years, so I would like to know this things from your point of veiw. Thank you!

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +4

      Hi Mike - Thanks for taking the time to write! I'm so glad you did because that is exactly the direction I am taking over the next few months. I've organized as a number of interviews that will explore the process of manufacturing publishing and play testing - all with the designer in mind. I've not yet covered Kickstarter - but that is coming too :)

    • @davidbocek6238
      @davidbocek6238 3 роки тому +1

      Hi Mike, I have exactly the same questions as you.
      Jinak sem čech a možná by jsme si mohli vyměnit kontatky, pokud máš v úmyslu jako já udělat deskovku:)
      david.bocek99@gmail.com

  • @GamingIndoors
    @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +38

    Happy New year folks! I thought I would start the year with a quick summary of how to make a board game using the knowledge I've picked up in the last year chatting with "proper" board game designers! Let me know if you think I've missed anything out or if you have any questions I can help with!

  • @daddydeepdink907
    @daddydeepdink907 3 роки тому +28

    I would like to see a video on the types of materials to choose from for the Board itself, player pieces, community chest & chance card material, paper money material.
    Approximate costs and places to buy the materials would be nice if included as well

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +12

      Thanks for the comment DaddyDeepdink, this is your lucky day! I've just finished up the first of a couple of interviews with a great board game manufacturer explicitly reviewing both the process of engagement but also the cost and options available. The first part should be out next week :)

  • @Federico_415
    @Federico_415 Рік тому +1

    Thank you I’ll send you a copy of my finished product 😄

  • @nihongo-fokkusu
    @nihongo-fokkusu Місяць тому

    It amazes me how few likes this video has. Your videos are some of the most useful on the topic that I have seen so far.

  • @OddClarity
    @OddClarity 3 роки тому +6

    Excellent video! I studying graphics design at TAFE (the Australian term for something like vocational college) and one of my tasks is to create a board game. Your video has helped me to not feel so overwhelmed by this task and to just give it a go. Thanks so much for all the helpful information and keep up the great work! :)

  • @eratus67
    @eratus67 7 місяців тому

    1:10 wasn't expecting to see the scopa here!

  • @Thegiddyowl
    @Thegiddyowl Рік тому +2

    This is so helpful, thank you! I want to make a board game for my friend that can be played by one to two people since we’re the only ones that want to play lol😂

  • @andysochor216
    @andysochor216 3 роки тому +2

    You packed a ton of information into this video. As someone who has recently gotten into board game design, this was super helpful.

  • @kotorun3149
    @kotorun3149 2 роки тому +1

    Thanks from Russia! You helped me have created my school project about these them. Thanks from all
    (Why you have very few comments and likes? Very good work of voice and video's idea)

  • @Itangalo
    @Itangalo 3 роки тому +34

    Thanks for your videos! The book "The Art of Game Design" changed the way I look at games and game designing, and nowadays I basically put the player experience above everything else. Increasing the player experience is a good thing, even if it makes the mechanics worse, the game less balanced, etc. (Example: I played "Talisman" as a kid. Later on I realize that the mechanics suck big time, but the joy I had as kid was real. Thus it was a great game, for me, at that time.)
    Of course, a great player experience is often helped by good mechanics, better balanced games, etc. But I try to think more in terms of "how do these game mechanics help the player experience" more than "what are good game mechanics". Also, the theme, and how the theme merges with mechanics, becomes more important.
    What are your thoughts on this? Player experience above everything else, or not?

    • @mikezilla3100
      @mikezilla3100 2 роки тому +1

      My brother in law's grandfather designed a fairly simple game in the 80s, and I was able to get my hands on it as a really great Christmas gift for him. We've decided to change some rules to make it a heavier game rather than a simple one. We also have some ideas for other games, but Hurricane's revitalization will be the first we complete.
      It's very fun to play, but we want to add more mechanics. We've noticed it's harder to add mechanics that keep the game in check or as fun, so we're comprising at times. A balanced game is important, but so is the experience.
      We'll definitely check out that book, thanks for the info!!

  • @KeithWheelerBooks
    @KeithWheelerBooks 3 роки тому +6

    Excellent video, Ali. Amazing and thorough recap. Would love to see more of the games you and your son have been working on.

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +1

      LOL! I feel I keep saying - "yes soon"... but really ...soon!

    • @KeithWheelerBooks
      @KeithWheelerBooks 3 роки тому

      @@GamingIndoors awesome! I can’t wait. Also, I’d love to chat with you about having you on my channel.

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +1

      Hey Keith - just saw this. That would be awesome ! Will drop you an email now.

    • @KeithWheelerBooks
      @KeithWheelerBooks 3 роки тому

      @@GamingIndoors sounds good.

  • @nestler4936
    @nestler4936 3 роки тому +8

    Thank you for your videos! I'm creating a board game for my college final project (studying Arts and Design) and it's being really hard to come up with the final idea :/ I love mythology, fairies/fantasy, mistery, science fiction, arts ahahaha To create a whole new game by myself it's harder than I thought ahah but will watch all your videos

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +3

      Keep at it, Nestler! Making a GOOD board game does take sometime and effort - but you can bet it will be worth it in the end. I find it very difficult to focus on one thing I like, but in truth that's the way to progress effectively!

  • @skillgrunt
    @skillgrunt 3 роки тому +4

    The man he is back in the new year

  • @thegreatpapaya48
    @thegreatpapaya48 2 роки тому

    I'm working on a boardgame and this video really got my mind straight on what to do. For the longest time I've been focusing on getting everything right the first time, and not needing to refine anything. But this video showed me that that's not realistic at all. I've got my components for my prototype, but I still need a rough draft for the rules and some playtesters, but I'm not too worried about that.

  • @shotgunkingdom922
    @shotgunkingdom922 3 роки тому +2

    I always starts with paper pen and LEGO ❤️
    This video is so useful thank you

  • @Erynus
    @Erynus 3 роки тому

    What I love is that your pronunctiation is so clear I can train my ear as I learn about game design, as english is not my main language. Also your videos are just the right lenght. Congratulations, mister.

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +1

      Happy to help, Erynus! Please ask me any questions you may have an I will do my best to find an answer for you!

    • @Erynus
      @Erynus 3 роки тому +1

      ​@@GamingIndoors Thank you. I'm on the "refining prototype" phase and tackling the arduous task of putting the rules into writing. I think i have a problem there, as i use two decks of the same cards to different tasks, one the standard poker size and other "mini" measuring half in size. Whenever i talk about the latter, i only came up with the term "zone mini-card" and i see it's a bit cumbersome to read. Should i stick to the term or is there any other way i can call them? a solution can be to use numbered tokens instead the smaller deck, as the cards themselves are numbered too, but i think that having a smaller version of the card with the name, colour and al would be easier to use.
      For context, in a given phase there is an effect that affect some zones, you reach for a mini-card and mark the corresponding zone card. Playtesting had showed that getting the number from a token and look for the zone introduce downtime (and a lot as the effects occur in batches of six).
      Thank you again, and my apologies for the text wall.

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому

      Hi Erynus - Personally I think a shorter, snappier name would be better - can you just call them Zone Cards? In truth, what you call the cards should not be the hindrance for your game - If the game is fun to play people will end up calling the cards something else anyway. When I play sometime I just call a deck by the colour of their backs. For example, I might just say the blue deck because the pattern on of the back has some blue on it. Try asking your play testers what they would call the deck and don't forget to ask on Reddit or BGG's design forums.

  • @thedspenguin
    @thedspenguin Рік тому

    I've just found your channel and watched a couple of your videos after having watched so many other videos from others and read so many articles about board game design and here, within minutes, I found a few solutions to issues with the game I'm designing so thank you very much.

  • @DRW.1
    @DRW.1 2 роки тому +2

    Excellent video! Thanks😁I really appreciate you taking the time to put together such an entertaining and educational guide into game design. I have a cool idea for a game and this video has inspired me to make it a reality!

  • @LeDucce
    @LeDucce 3 роки тому +1

    Very underrated channel

  • @makuron5743
    @makuron5743 9 місяців тому

    Tabletop Simulator is also a really good source, only the game and like 2 or 3 hours learning how to code in it and you can literally make anything
    It lets you get custom models, textures for cards with any custom size you want, etc
    And the only thing you have to pay is the game that's usually on sale, I got it at like 5usd on Christmas last time and you can literally play with anyone that has it so free playtesting and maybe even new friends

  • @muhammadhaider7687
    @muhammadhaider7687 2 роки тому +1

    God knows I needed this video. Thanks Ali!

  • @donaldkehler7029
    @donaldkehler7029 3 роки тому +1

    Tip number 6 has been very helpful for me so far!

  • @shariyagodnik1179
    @shariyagodnik1179 2 роки тому

    Valuable nuggets of information! I'm making a game for my firm to help win a new client... I perhaps bit off more than I could chew but your video will help me focus! Thank you for sharing your passion with us, and in such a thoughtful way!

  • @lizziecross8149
    @lizziecross8149 Рік тому +1

    I’m choosing between redesigning a 50s Barbie game or candyland for my sister for Christmas. They were both a couple of our favorite games to play since we were young. Candyland is just too boring now, so I think I want to make it a bit more fun. But also, I think it would be fun to make a new version of Barbie.

  • @logiq32
    @logiq32 Рік тому

    Thank U so much again. Thanks for sharing your energy, enthusiasm and so on. You are so inspiring! Keep going!!! ☀️🍀

  • @manyshadesofbrown
    @manyshadesofbrown 3 роки тому +1

    Another excellent video Ali. This is really one of the most professionally produced board game channels; it's thoughtful, content is balanced and accessible. Ali, what can we do to help this channel grow? We really need this to land on people's feeds.

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому

      Thanks, Jeremy. I am standing on the shoulders of giants here and doing my best to pass on what I learn from the wisdom and experience of others!

  • @TheTeleMan500
    @TheTeleMan500 3 роки тому

    thanks for inspiring me! i'm now going to work on making a game! hopefully i'll actually work on it

  • @jackburgess9389
    @jackburgess9389 3 роки тому +3

    Great video Ali! Think you really laid it all out very nicely. I definitely think the theme of the board game is extremely important. For example the great board game Santorini started out as a totally abstract (rather ugly) logic game, but when it got the new theme of Greek mythology sold much better, looks amazing and I think it's a superb gaming experience. Love the music too Will+Lydia! (Or Lydia+Will...?)

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +1

      Cheers Jack. Yes a good theme can make or break some games for me. What I especially liked about Santorini, is that the theme leant itself very well to the powers the playing pieces have - like Hermes being able to zip all over the board !

  • @VukovatzTV
    @VukovatzTV 2 роки тому +2

    The most helpful video on UA-cam I ever seen!

  • @cloudythb
    @cloudythb 3 роки тому

    Thanks! I'm a game designer and I've always wanted to make a board game! These tips helped me out a lot!

  • @eduwoodentoysgrace4077
    @eduwoodentoysgrace4077 Рік тому

    Design Games really Good Idea,much fun during these, you can share speical games with your friends.some times i do this with my daugther.But most time we produce large quantity Games for the designers. Really Fun.

  • @GamingIndoors
    @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +1

    Hey Folks - Thanks for all the kind comments! Just a quick correction to my vid though : as Panon Corvo da Tempestade says "You CAN'T burrow components from other games on Tabletopia, but you can do it on TableTop Simulator".

    • @tinylaly
      @tinylaly 3 роки тому

      Is it the same as tabletopia???

  • @cybrandir
    @cybrandir 3 роки тому

    Thank you for the tabletopia tip! I will definately use that one for my board game!

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +1

      Glad it was helpful, Cyberman, but I see my correction comment actually being able to borrow from other games.

  • @e-rock6328
    @e-rock6328 3 роки тому

    Love seeing you back! Great start to the new year videos.

  • @Lucas-wn8on
    @Lucas-wn8on 2 роки тому

    Gracias desde Argentina

  • @ParlorPunch
    @ParlorPunch 3 роки тому +1

    Hope you're doing well!!

  • @AXLFREEDOM
    @AXLFREEDOM Рік тому

    what a wonderful video!! Loved the ending!!

  • @roofylongkit
    @roofylongkit Рік тому

    This video is so helpful! Thank you so much Ali!😁

  • @L4ZYM4T10N
    @L4ZYM4T10N 2 роки тому +1

    This is actually really helpful! However I’m still having a bit of trouble with making it

  • @howalk1505
    @howalk1505 3 роки тому

    Great video, i never found yt like this. For me who never making boardgame and not playing loot of boardgame i stole idea and mechanic from online video game that i like to watch and translate to boardgame with adding some extra mechanic.

  • @theunknown5137
    @theunknown5137 3 роки тому

    You made it look so easy and accessible.. You are a great teacher sir.. Keep it up

  • @OrdemDoGraveto
    @OrdemDoGraveto 3 роки тому

    As someone that's also developing a board game for the last year, I agree with everything you said on the video!
    You CAN'T burrow components from other games on Tabletopia. You can do it on TableTop Simulator, wich is another platform.
    PS: The background music was too low, I couldn't listed to it in order to judge it, but it seemed cool from what I could hear hehe

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +1

      AH! I will add a comment at the top of this to ensure my mistake on Tabletopia is corrected - but thanks again for the great share!

  • @DannaBananaQueen
    @DannaBananaQueen 2 роки тому

    my game, plush warfare stadium is underrated ngl

  • @enosfruit
    @enosfruit 3 роки тому

    Excellent and motivating video for 2021, thank you!

  • @chrisgriswold2682
    @chrisgriswold2682 3 роки тому

    Your videos are always helpful thanks for doing what you're doing!

  • @manyshadesofbrown
    @manyshadesofbrown 3 роки тому +1

    Music was great!

  • @kumbaya976
    @kumbaya976 2 роки тому

    I have started building a board game or atleast I would call it that but its done with lego and there is an attacker and defender the defender has to defend there posistion and the attacker muat take it over the attacler starts with 600 men and defenders have 450 (i dont have that many minifigures but I just put in about 8 on one side and 10 on the other) and each turn they can do something but each thing is different for example only defemders could dig a trench and get machine guns and attackers could get artillery and tanks and charge but both sides can do a shootout and recover and each of these will take up one turn and thats it im still working on it but probablly not making it official or anything like that but hopefully no one will steal the idea

  • @WorldAquariumSingapore
    @WorldAquariumSingapore 2 роки тому +1

    Cool on this

  • @alphatapfuma9514
    @alphatapfuma9514 3 роки тому

    Your camera is spot on good man

  • @colepettit9339
    @colepettit9339 3 роки тому +1

    I love your videos keep up the great work!

  • @andreawatkins6100
    @andreawatkins6100 2 роки тому

    Great Tips, Thank You!

  • @RealWizardry
    @RealWizardry 2 роки тому

    Very useful. Thanks!

  • @tolleygaming6939
    @tolleygaming6939 2 роки тому +1

    I'm currently in the prototype phase for my board game and was wondering what type of programming/coding should I learn. It's a turn base strategy war simulator game with the battlefield being discoverable location with effects.

  • @noughtyanthems
    @noughtyanthems 3 місяці тому

    I've found over the past 4 months just how difficult it is to get the game made. Choosing to have playing pieces made that are not standard is a nightmare. Having them made in China is not easy and prices for the same piece can range from $0.45 to $10. It's a mess and if you think you can just get some made to start with forget it. Even changing the paint of a piece already in manufacture to keep the cost down will most of the time have a minimum order of 10,000pcs per piece. I have 9 different pieces per game making the cost out of reach. Designing the game and creating the graphics is definitely the easy part.

  • @republikadugave420
    @republikadugave420 2 роки тому

    Cool video...👍

  • @senibungasiput
    @senibungasiput 9 місяців тому

    Very helpful

  • @matthieuverrette6209
    @matthieuverrette6209 2 роки тому

    Hello sir! Thanks for this introduction. I just subscribed to your channel and this is the first video I watched. Wow! So helpful! Is there one (or two) of the books you mentioned at the beginning of the video that I should read first? I've been working on a game for a few months now and need to do this the right way. I'm kinda stuck now... Thanks!

  • @roguelites5225
    @roguelites5225 3 роки тому +1

    Thanks man 🙏

  • @tinepauwels1652
    @tinepauwels1652 2 роки тому

    I like that you added "or girl" when you said to search for a guy to do your artwork. ;) (or was it to write the rules? I ll have to watch again I guess)

  • @Nini-ek6on
    @Nini-ek6on 2 роки тому

    Great information organized and clear. Just one thing...any ideas and suggestions about what a prototype game would cost someone?

  • @scottval321
    @scottval321 10 місяців тому

    just started on my journey. thanks for the vid
    What advise would you give on copyrighting?

  • @mrmarioc9785
    @mrmarioc9785 2 роки тому

    Insightful video thank you

  • @Alpacaman420
    @Alpacaman420 2 роки тому

    Thank you! 😊

  • @eh7256
    @eh7256 2 роки тому

    Excellent content

  • @WafflesMcWaffles
    @WafflesMcWaffles 2 роки тому

    #9:15 if you like the suggestion you are totally allowed

  • @jonathansnow7421
    @jonathansnow7421 3 роки тому +37

    Maybe actually first 😊

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +11

      Holy smokes - you were. Your comment was there before my own, lol!

  • @chrisnichols1862
    @chrisnichols1862 2 роки тому

    Question? Is it legal to create am add on/ mod for an existing commercial board game. Not using any of their art or logos... just referencing some of the locations / names and properties in the game. No logo or artwork use at all.
    Just curious before I develop... if it is a 50/50 perhaps I will use an S-Corp to protect personal liability

  • @panv3308
    @panv3308 Рік тому

    I have a question, could you recommend any application or mapping program for board games? .I've already done everything but I have a problem with the board

  • @BarbaraGrabski
    @BarbaraGrabski 2 роки тому +1

    I think you missed the materials to make the board

  • @tinylaly
    @tinylaly 3 роки тому +1

    So when you write the rules you keep changing them based when your playing with people and while refining???
    I don't know if you understand me .....?

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому

      Hi Tiny - I think the point is more don't be rigid in how you think the game will work - you will continue to develop your game and the rules may change based upon what your testers feedback to you.

  • @ElijahMCbeats
    @ElijahMCbeats 2 роки тому

    Great channel. Great to meet you. I've just uploaded our game of influencer to my channel. Gave you a shout brother!

  • @_Cervantez
    @_Cervantez 3 роки тому

    Awesome! So when will you show us your card game? :)

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +1

      As I said to Keith it is going to happen and soon, but here's the thing; the card game is VERY, VERY simple - it's really more an experiment into how I approached the process. I will be sharing the journey with all - hopefully all the way through to manufacture (of at least one copy lol) , explaining the steps as I go...

  • @bwah9481
    @bwah9481 Рік тому

    0:30 Tom Vasel*

  • @deadinside4372
    @deadinside4372 3 роки тому

    Great video

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому

      Thanks Dead Inside - glad you liked it !

  • @pfcalizae2205
    @pfcalizae2205 3 роки тому

    A quick question for a friend of mine. She's looking to create a board game that is based on a popular piece of media, specifically an anime. Obviously the majority of anime is owned by whatever named company in Japan.
    My guess is that she's been wondering how to go about creating this game based on that piece of media so as to not face any backlash from whatever company owns it. Would there possibly be a way to get around that or is there something more intricate that she needs to do in order for her game to come to fruition?

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +1

      Hey Alizae! My advice here is to go ahead and make her game with the anime in mind but still detachable form it should the licensing not be achievable. If I am making a game about raiding a lost temple - you may well immediately think Indian Jones but my game may not directly use his name or imagery and still be publishable.
      That said I do have two upcoming interviews that may interest you : one with a lawyer who specializes in board games and one about "localization" the very specific activity of bringing Japanese based games to a western board game community. so stay tuned!

  • @Emma78858
    @Emma78858 Рік тому +1

    Him: this is mechanics. What my brain hears:ygjq n ac. Me:🥴 I just wanted to learn how to make a better board game 🎮 🎲

  • @claudyview
    @claudyview 3 роки тому

    How do you mass produce?

  • @skyify1594
    @skyify1594 2 роки тому

    i subbeddddd

  • @voltonekdev
    @voltonekdev 3 роки тому

    i like this video

  • @JasonWall1
    @JasonWall1 2 роки тому +1

    One quick question i see that many of your games are german so im wondering if your german or live in germany
    if its too personal you dont have to answer

  • @HeyRamy
    @HeyRamy 3 роки тому +1

    This is a comment to help you out with the youtube algorithm.

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому +1

      ...and it is very much appreciated, LOL!

  • @Ggdivhjkjl
    @Ggdivhjkjl 10 місяців тому

    What's a lockdown?

    • @fxb505
      @fxb505 9 місяців тому

      When your stuck indoors

  • @TirzaBoi
    @TirzaBoi 2 роки тому +1

    Thanks the 2020 version was outdated.

  • @HAQEEMisHERE
    @HAQEEMisHERE 3 роки тому

    Its a good video, why it has so little like)

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому

      Thanks Budak - hope you find it useful!

  • @duckpange
    @duckpange 2 роки тому

    I made a board game once then forgot where i put it

  • @vishakhakarma3491
    @vishakhakarma3491 2 роки тому

    Can you please suggest me some idea of board game for accounts

  • @blisterfingers8169
    @blisterfingers8169 2 роки тому

    Nice overview but like any other of these videos you go from "Have an idea" to "make a prototype" and I'm pretty sure there's a few steps in the middle people always miss out. Y'know... The hard bit where you actually design the thing.

  • @TamirNahor
    @TamirNahor Рік тому

    Hey Ali I got inspired by your projects and if possible, would like to talk with you about a project I want to create. Can you reach out to me?

  • @glowingunknown5625
    @glowingunknown5625 2 роки тому

    You mean I can actually play games INDOORS ?!

  • @skyify1594
    @skyify1594 2 роки тому

    noice vid

  • @anthonymgc8009
    @anthonymgc8009 3 роки тому

    I think nowadays there are a lot of card games instead of real board games

  • @Julebstube
    @Julebstube 3 роки тому

    Hi, I'm planning on makinng a channel with simple design challenges for new designers. If it is ok, I will add a link to this.

    • @GamingIndoors
      @GamingIndoors  3 роки тому

      Please do, Julebstube! I will pop along and check it out when you do :)

  • @viraglitch1878
    @viraglitch1878 2 роки тому +1

    Me hearing there are over 200 mechanics *ha rookie numbers*

  • @danisami
    @danisami 2 роки тому

    Why is this the guy from Toy Story

  • @possay100
    @possay100 3 роки тому

    I used a printer

  • @faithlessgaming3727
    @faithlessgaming3727 2 роки тому

    amugus

  • @marcusogden3570
    @marcusogden3570 3 роки тому

    Wow so many words and so little information on how to make a game...

  • @AIDEN_PLAYSZ
    @AIDEN_PLAYSZ 3 роки тому

    Z

  • @piercefabruada3851
    @piercefabruada3851 3 роки тому

    Speaking of design and uniqueness maybe you want to take a look at this newly found game called "Lagim Card Game". It's a strategic type of game wherein you need to defend your baryo against evil fiends. You may visit their FB page and website for more info.