I think you proved your point beyond the shadow of a doubt, Janice. Minor point, the VI was the meter that Dan Swanson did the clay demo for. That was in the '78 '79 period. Hubbard Electrometer, formerly Delta Meters, moved into the Publications Organization then (later called Bridge Publications). In the 80s an updated design with similar looks was done, the MK VII. This is the production line that was moved to the Gold Base. Hubbard was involved with the VI. It was Hubbard's idea to finance the R&D by releasing a signed special edition run of 100 Peacock Blue MK VI meters for a ridiculous high price. They were hand-crafted using Polane paint, fiberglass and lots of Bondo to fix the imperfections. I was not there for the MK VI release but I was told they called it the Cadillac of E-Meters and drove a real Cadillac onto the stage of the Shrine Auditorium at the release. Norman Starkey was involved with that. Fun fact - they tried to duplicate the clay model by casting it in epoxy, not realizing that epoxy gets hot as it cures. The clay melted and to this day the original shape of the meter is just an educated guess based on the mess that was left when they tried to cast it in resin. Of course, the VIII has its own new shape not based on the VI.
Bruce Ploetz ? I helped on the Mark VI evolution That was when H.E.M. was still at PAC on the top floor of the Service Building (before H.E.M. became part of Bridge Publications, Inc). I was an Expeditor at the time. First I was hot stamping face plates with all the markings, and later I was fixing Overt Product LCD Clock/TA Counter boards that had been produced by an outside company. Do you remember me ? You showed me the circuit diagram and had me demo how it worked for you. You gave me a box of a couple hundred and I was able to fix at least half of them.
In '77 I got a briefing about the new Mark VI that was in the works. I was told that LRH had discovered that the Mark V (the last version that was a wooden box) was no good, the needle movement would not show floating needles, shouldn't be used. This was at least the case with the American Delta Meters. I was advised, though, that this must be kept a big secret, until the Mark VI was released, because if it became known the Mark V was no good, people would stop buying them!!!! A little dishonest, that. The body was made up by Dan Swanson, made from course room clay, while he was on guard duty. The version Mark worked on must be the Mark VII; next was Mark VII quantum, and the current Mark VIII easy bake oven.
@@mhobson2009 Sure, I remember you. Wild times in what is now the Int Training Org. I got RPFed in 83 and ended up at the Int Base, then got RPFed again in 1990. The RPF courseroom was the same room that used to be the HEM production line! Some of my old reference books were still there.
hey thanks! the Onion has been interesting, kind of stepping out of my comfort zone. We will do the rest of LA Quinta (Winter Head Quarters) soon. That will explain how the movie making org (cine, then Golden Era Productions) got started, and it's rapid growth. That's my 15 minutes of fame in scn.
The most notable thing I remember from this story was the change in Hubbard when he came back to the ship which led to this idea. He was supposedly acting despondent or a bit broken from what I remember. There was talk or rumors that the government gave Hubbard a chance to prove that his ideas were real, perhaps with an e-meter that they had or whatever. This could have been his chance to prove to the world that Scn was actually real, and that it could be a useful breakthrough for the government and humanity. But of course it isn't and he would have failed to prove past lives, the e-meter's validity, etc. So he had to "eat crow" and come back to the ship having stepped away from his eager acolytes for a time and confront real people who weren't brainwashed to his ideas while away... But he fell back into step quickly with his hoodwinking himself and his followers.
@@OneCharmedLife Perhaps ridiculous, especially to someone who still believes in Hubbard, but I wonder what did happen while he was gone for that period though. What would they have done with him? Where did he sleep at night? Would love to know.
Stu manages to overlook an incredible multitude of abuses. Thank you both for presenting this, not that I ever bought into the theory that he wasn't himself after 1972, that's absurd. Lastly, SLO county had his fingerprints because he had a criminal past in that area. I believe it was forgery of a check but not sure.
hi barb. i dont really mean to be callous; I do have a lot to say about that subject, some of it I covered below in a response to Russ. Unbelievable some of the idiotic things done by management in the name of zealousness. If all scn had was a TRs course it would be good. But it is, whatever else you want to say, a small modern religion, and a lot of mistakes are being made during it's establishment phase. Not as many mistakes as happened during the establishment of all major and many minor religions. We are living thru it, I wonder what it's gonna look like 100 yrs from now. My experiences date back more than half a century. Also, there is only so much time I have to cover what makes me tick, maybe we will do a life after scn interview later.
Great video, Thank you. I just learned that Andre Tabayoyon was LRH's steward. Probably he was the one that trained Kinesiologist Stepany Relfe on the Ability Meter and told her that LRH had 3 body sizes in his clothes. Not to contradict the facts that Janis is presenting. Just clarifying things that I red about in 2010.
These people who believe in the clone or replacement, I think I understand 'em. They fully believed at one point, and then they ran into some blatant nonsense or lying by Hubbard, and the only conclusion was that he must have been honest at some point, and therefore, "This BS I've run into must be from the clone". They've got one more realization coming.
Overwhelming evidence that he was not physically replaced in 72. But it's possible something weird happened when he was supposedly just eating fishsticks in Queens. Seems like LRH got more authoritarian and paranoid as time went on, maybe 72 is as good a cut off as any even if the body double thing is nonsense. I love your channel and I think it is cool that you're not shying away from the freezone stuff.
Thanks very much. Hubbard had a bad motorcycle accident after 1972 and many people who were around then say he changed alot at that point. I think Janis has talked about that before on our channel. Thanks very much for watching.
Thank you for the helpful information about what you saw and experienced. No one will seriously doubt that. But one thing should not be forgotten. You did not see everything and much could have happened in the background without your knowledge. I think it is clear that it was LRH's original body that you saw after 1973. His memories were also obviously complete and authentic. But was it the same being? We should not forget what it was all about in the end. LRH was part of an intergalactic game or one could also say battle. We do not know who the other players were and what technologies were available to them.
If he had been switched, you and Stu and HUNDREDS of people on the Apollo would have recognized it immediately, starting with MSH and she would handled it terminatedly. And of course, the fingerprints. When I first heard his VOICE as I entered the date packing plant/studio, even before getting all the way through the door and physically seeing him, I knew that VOICE was the same I had heard on scores of lecture tapes.
I always thought Hubbard sounded really strange on RJ36. I think that was recorded in 1983. He just sounded different and it actually sounded more like his son L. Ron Hubbard Jr (Ron DeWolf) with the really deep voice.
Someone help me: Which RJ was it where there was another person in the RJ who would speak back and forth with Ron? This other voice would supply various statistics to Ron. I think there was also the clatter of a keyboard in the recording as this other person would look up information and give it verbally to Ron in the recording. I'll give a home-brewed cuppa Hot Koala to the lucky guy or gal that provides the correct info!
Thanks. That was the RJ that was done when LRH said that the world had gone computer. I think it was in 1984. Hubbard recorded his part whereever he was and then the tape was edited at Gold to put in the computer clacking and any other sound effects. The statistics and information was provided to Hubbard by CMO International and screened by Miscavige. I was there working for Miscavige at the time. I may be wrong on the year but I remember how it was done.
@@MarkFisherandJanisGillhamGrady Miscavage revised the "two year rule" and changed it to the "25 year rule" you both are to report back on post by Thursday at 2 o'clock. Contact me for details.
I have a side by side photo of DJT and Hubbard (the one of Hubbard popped up on my explore page) and they look like they could be brothers.. or the same person. The eyes and othe features are identical
There are two possibilities: 1.) Bodies, including memories, can be duplicated. 2.) The being that inhabits a body can be replaced. In both cases, the person, including their memory, appears to be unchanged on the outside. Only the character is changed. Wasn't there such a change in LRH's character when he returned from New York in 1973? There is some evidence that such replacements have also been made to other people. This technology exists.
Yes. Another example of this is probably Joe Biden. look at the man, he's currently NOT even pretending to be a president. He's a brainwiped puppet, completely controlled by someone else. He used to be a capable politician, corrupt, but capable. Nowadays he's just being used, similarly how Ron was being used.
20:44 "It still manages to survive and expand." Stuart, do you really think Scientology is expanding? Not in thirty years. Sounds like you're kissing up to someone, or trying to stay connected to your family. You mention when you got out (kicked out) in 82. That year was probably the biggest contraction ever. ETA: You were less gullible then, or at least more honest about it. But I look forward to your next one of these interviews, and I hope you're more open about it!
hi. Russ. In a future interview, there is a bunch of stuff I hope to get into post scientology. It is not a "sound bite" but I will try and keep it relatively brief here. Each one of the following paragraphs is really just an outline, there is so much more to it. I did not get kicked out, I just realized it was time to leave and routed out. The only real consequence back then was a bill for 5 years worth of pro-rated services. There was an attempt to dissuade me from leaving. I have always been in pursuit of the spiritual side, the god connection, and scientology was a good step in that. It offered a modern approach. I got a lot out of it. Going onto the ship relatively green I learned a lot and did the ot levels to 7. The auditor project LRH had at the Laqunita base had me audited by Dan Koon and CSd by LRH. My last CS was "Off Auditing until he keys in again". Because it was instant FN everything and too easy. A big part of why I left was because I wanted to do the family thing . ANd there was a strong sense the lines were changing, that was when DM was maneuvering things. The family thing was not possible there and I did not fancy living in LA. Scn offers a lot of good "tech". Auditing can remove fixed ideas that in the big picture kind of eliminate the idea of karma. You probably know eval tech. Missing data is often the hardest to spot. Scn is missing god and love and forgiveness, although this is a little in the essay called “what is greatness”, and they are trying to liken affinity to love, which in the ultimate sense is true in that perfect affinity would be a closeness so close it is a oneness, and there you get the expression god is love. I like to think in ideal scenes. Hubbard espoused a lot of ideals in his writings. In reality there are two sides - the tech and the admin. The tech is pretty straight forward. It gets people thinking about themselves in the body mind spirit way. As opposed to just thinking one is a body. The admin gets kind of arbitrary because it is executed by individuals. I say scn is a force for good in that it takes otherwise semi normal people and treats them as spiritual beings. That kind of awakens the truth in people. I want scientology as a subject to survive and expand. I wish the official scn management was different but it is what it is. If there is a “gods plan” I am trying to figure why DM ended up there instead of a host of others. I thought the CMO was being set up to run things, I knew all those people. There were also a number of brilliant execs you peobably know them all. But it was DM and the lawyers that figured out how to control it. As far as expansion goes at least on the Scientology TV Channel they show a lot of world wide expansion going on. I do wonder how the US orgs are doing, but I’ve been hearing about the demise of scn for so many years. Another big outpoint - so many of its best and brightest become outsiders. Its almost like scientology’s aim is to make you more cause, and when you get to the point that you are cause over scn you get the bum’s rush outta there. In 1970 the top of the grade chart was OT8, cause over life and thought and matter,energy, space and time. God-like abilities. But what happens when everyone is returned to “native state” like OT8, - can that not be only a oneness which is also god? That is why disconnect is so bad, it is the opposite of what the goal is, reconnection to native state. Disconnection is a major problem with Scn, It makes no sense that the “super human” as produced by Scn is so delicate as to be negatively influenced by a supposed “suppressive” person. There are other ways to deal with people close to you that might disagree with your viewpoint (ie, a gung-ho scientologists vp) but you can be cause without breaking up families. This issue must be resolved in scn is to really succeed. I have visions of a block party where people like Rinder can reconnect with his scn kin, and Leah is hugging Shelly, etc. Again, the way these policies are used is based on individual interpretations. I never meant to be callous about anyone negatively impacted by Scn. There are actual haters out there, most people just want peace and harmony. And I did have to make some “sacrifices” to hang out with Jan. But my integrity to myself is more important - although I would like to see peace and harmony. The peeling the onion concept is interesting. When Jan first told me about it my interpretation was peeling back the onion to find your real spiritual self. Which is more of what I am interested in than stories about being in the past. But we are supposed to be having fun here. My skills are in building and fixing things. I would like to fix scientology. I would like to see families reunited. I would like to see routing out of the SO an easy process. If scn is trying to expand, the exiting people should be encouraged to become useful field scientologists, instead of sources of trouble for scn. To disconnect from your SO friends is odd. Although I would like to see the conflicts touched on here resolved in my lifetime, I may be a bit ahead of things. Scn is a new church, and is having a lot of growing pains. Eventually, all the big ones have to be more tolerant. I have always studied other ideas, and the best one I have used for a closer connection to god and love and forgiveness is ACIM, which I recommend. How to fix scn might be a good topic of onion. It certainly is controversial. A big deal I learned about post scn is the subject of forgiveness. As I look at it forgiveness is an earthly bridge to god. It looks upon your fellow being as a pure innocent spiritual being, the so called ‘sin” is not part of the picture in that it is in the past and only a memory. The future is likewise unreal in that it is imaginary. All you have is this exact instant which is where eternity is, where god is recognized along with you and your fellow being. The recognition of your fellow beings as pure spirit allows all that to happen in a “holy moment”.
@@Stu-UTUBE1 I remember YOU telling me that you were going to resist getting kicked out, but Sue Koon had advised you that you could not possibly win, and would be better off just getting out of the way. Do you actually believe anything on the Scn TV channel? Do you actually believe scientology is expanding? I just can't believe that you believe that. I'm sure you know the Ideal Org thing is a real estate/tax avoidance scheme, and these ideal orgs are barely firing on one cylinder. Picture the first ideal org, Buffalo, being unable to keep the heaters going in winter, and reg's having to sit outside in their cars to make phone calls, so the car heater can keep them warm. Miscellaneous thoughts: I remember your overweight dog, who you couldn't get to eat enough, even though she was fat. I remember your nice old Cadillac. By the way, for someone who still values scientology auditing, I assume you've never done NOTS. You know you could? It's on the internet. You don't have to pay the church, you don't have to get mistreated by ethics, you don't have to buy a bunch of extra sec checking. You've really just gotta believe it's a real thing, and believe you're doing some good with it. I had a brief tennis lesson from Waldo once. To see his serve up close was amazing. We once discussed the Billie Jean King vs Bobby Riggs match. He told me he could have easily beaten Billie Jean King. He said that at his peak he was probably ranked about 300th (in the world). He was the best table tennis player around too, even when drunk. I kind of agree with you that the What is Greatness is a good idea. Also the idea of granting beingness to others. The only problem is that scientology never followed those ideas, except as a means to con people. Responsibility of Leaders is a real good idea if you were trying to get a new Nazi SS organized. I wish you good luck staying connected with your kids.
Thank you very much for watching!
Such a good one! I love hearing these stories. I always check to see if I see my dad and his wife in any of your Apollo pics 😊
Amazing information, as always 🥳 great interview
Thanks so much!
Thank you Janis for clarifying tales of LRH doing things to women at the Celebrity Centre Manor, as told by Bent Corydon.
Ohhhh… sorry I missed this live!
In short, the LRH of the 60s was the same LRH of the 80s, up to 1986. Thank you.
I think you proved your point beyond the shadow of a doubt, Janice.
Minor point, the VI was the meter that Dan Swanson did the clay demo for. That was in the '78 '79 period. Hubbard Electrometer, formerly Delta Meters, moved into the Publications Organization then (later called Bridge Publications). In the 80s an updated design with similar looks was done, the MK VII. This is the production line that was moved to the Gold Base.
Hubbard was involved with the VI. It was Hubbard's idea to finance the R&D by releasing a signed special edition run of 100 Peacock Blue MK VI meters for a ridiculous high price. They were hand-crafted using Polane paint, fiberglass and lots of Bondo to fix the imperfections.
I was not there for the MK VI release but I was told they called it the Cadillac of E-Meters and drove a real Cadillac onto the stage of the Shrine Auditorium at the release. Norman Starkey was involved with that.
Fun fact - they tried to duplicate the clay model by casting it in epoxy, not realizing that epoxy gets hot as it cures. The clay melted and to this day the original shape of the meter is just an educated guess based on the mess that was left when they tried to cast it in resin. Of course, the VIII has its own new shape not based on the VI.
Great information Bruce. Thanks very much.
Bruce Ploetz ? I helped on the Mark VI evolution That was when H.E.M. was still at PAC on the top floor of the Service Building (before H.E.M. became part of Bridge Publications, Inc). I was an Expeditor at the time.
First I was hot stamping face plates with all the markings, and later I was fixing Overt Product LCD Clock/TA Counter boards that had been produced by an outside company.
Do you remember me ? You showed me the circuit diagram and had me demo how it worked for you. You gave me a box of a couple hundred and I was able to fix at least half of them.
In '77 I got a briefing about the new Mark VI that was in the works. I was told that LRH had discovered that the Mark V (the last version that was a wooden box) was no good, the needle movement would not show floating needles, shouldn't be used. This was at least the case with the American Delta Meters. I was advised, though, that this must be kept a big secret, until the Mark VI was released, because if it became known the Mark V was no good, people would stop buying them!!!! A little dishonest, that.
The body was made up by Dan Swanson, made from course room clay, while he was on guard duty. The version Mark worked on must be the Mark VII; next was Mark VII quantum, and the current Mark VIII easy bake oven.
@@mhobson2009 Sure, I remember you. Wild times in what is now the Int Training Org. I got RPFed in 83 and ended up at the Int Base, then got RPFed again in 1990. The RPF courseroom was the same room that used to be the HEM production line! Some of my old reference books were still there.
Great to see Stu again. Can’t wait until next time.
hey thanks! the Onion has been interesting, kind of stepping out of my comfort zone. We will do the rest of LA Quinta (Winter Head Quarters) soon. That will explain how the movie making org (cine, then Golden Era Productions) got started, and it's rapid growth. That's my 15 minutes of fame in scn.
The most notable thing I remember from this story was the change in Hubbard when he came back to the ship which led to this idea. He was supposedly acting despondent or a bit broken from what I remember. There was talk or rumors that the government gave Hubbard a chance to prove that his ideas were real, perhaps with an e-meter that they had or whatever. This could have been his chance to prove to the world that Scn was actually real, and that it could be a useful breakthrough for the government and humanity. But of course it isn't and he would have failed to prove past lives, the e-meter's validity, etc. So he had to "eat crow" and come back to the ship having stepped away from his eager acolytes for a time and confront real people who weren't brainwashed to his ideas while away... But he fell back into step quickly with his hoodwinking himself and his followers.
Ridiculous idea.
@@OneCharmedLife Perhaps ridiculous, especially to someone who still believes in Hubbard, but I wonder what did happen while he was gone for that period though. What would they have done with him? Where did he sleep at night? Would love to know.
Stu manages to overlook an incredible multitude of abuses. Thank you both for presenting this, not that I ever bought into the theory that he wasn't himself after 1972, that's absurd. Lastly, SLO county had his fingerprints because he had a criminal past in that area. I believe it was forgery of a check but not sure.
hi barb. i dont really mean to be callous; I do have a lot to say about that subject, some of it I covered below in a response to Russ. Unbelievable some of the idiotic things done by management in the name of zealousness. If all scn had was a TRs course it would be good. But it is, whatever else you want to say, a small modern religion, and a lot of mistakes are being made during it's establishment phase. Not as many mistakes as happened during the establishment of all major and many minor religions. We are living thru it, I wonder what it's gonna look like 100 yrs from now. My experiences date back more than half a century. Also, there is only so much time I have to cover what makes me tick, maybe we will do a life after scn interview later.
The name is Max Hauri. He is from Switzerland and he and his wife are the closest and most direct line of desent from Captain Bill Robertson.
Hi.. new to your channel and loving it... interesting theory.. but very odd
Thanks and welcome
Great video, Thank you. I just learned that Andre Tabayoyon was LRH's steward. Probably he was the one that trained Kinesiologist Stepany Relfe on the Ability Meter and told her that LRH had 3 body sizes in his clothes.
Not to contradict the facts that Janis is presenting. Just clarifying things that I red about in 2010.
These people who believe in the clone or replacement, I think I understand 'em. They fully believed at one point, and then they ran into some blatant nonsense or lying by Hubbard, and the only conclusion was that he must have been honest at some point, and therefore, "This BS I've run into must be from the clone". They've got one more realization coming.
Overwhelming evidence that he was not physically replaced in 72. But it's possible something weird happened when he was supposedly just eating fishsticks in Queens. Seems like LRH got more authoritarian and paranoid as time went on, maybe 72 is as good a cut off as any even if the body double thing is nonsense. I love your channel and I think it is cool that you're not shying away from the freezone stuff.
Thanks very much. Hubbard had a bad motorcycle accident after 1972 and many people who were around then say he changed alot at that point. I think Janis has talked about that before on our channel. Thanks very much for watching.
Thank you for promoting koala calm, you outbackers!
Thank you for the helpful information about what you saw and experienced. No one will seriously doubt that. But one thing should not be forgotten. You did not see everything and much could have happened in the background without your knowledge. I think it is clear that it was LRH's original body that you saw after 1973. His memories were also obviously complete and authentic. But was it the same being? We should not forget what it was all about in the end. LRH was part of an intergalactic game or one could also say battle. We do not know who the other players were and what technologies were available to them.
If he had been switched, you and Stu and HUNDREDS of people on the Apollo would have recognized it immediately, starting with MSH and she would handled it terminatedly. And of course, the fingerprints. When I first heard his VOICE as I entered the date packing plant/studio, even before getting all the way through the door and physically seeing him, I knew that VOICE was the same I had heard on scores of lecture tapes.
Exactly!!
🙏💜
I always thought Hubbard sounded really strange on RJ36. I think that was recorded in 1983. He just sounded different and it actually sounded more like his son L. Ron Hubbard Jr (Ron DeWolf) with the really deep voice.
Ron's Journal '67 was recorded in 1967 at a rented villa on La Palma Island.
@@mhobson2009 Sorry not RJ67. I meant RJ36.
@@snakepit101 Oh, OK.
@@mhobson2009 or whatever the RJ where he says "you will be very lonely in the stars" in...
Yes the RJ36 voice sound and rhythm was very different to my ears as well. I'd like to get Janis' POV on that as well.
Someone help me: Which RJ was it where there was another person in the RJ who would speak back and forth with Ron? This other voice would supply various statistics to Ron. I think there was also the clatter of a keyboard in the recording as this other person would look up information and give it verbally to Ron in the recording. I'll give a home-brewed cuppa Hot Koala to the lucky guy or gal that provides the correct info!
Thanks. That was the RJ that was done when LRH said that the world had gone computer. I think it was in 1984. Hubbard recorded his part whereever he was and then the tape was edited at Gold to put in the computer clacking and any other sound effects. The statistics and information was provided to Hubbard by CMO International and screened by Miscavige. I was there working for Miscavige at the time. I may be wrong on the year but I remember how it was done.
@@MarkFisherandJanisGillhamGrady Miscavage revised the "two year rule" and changed it to the "25 year rule" you both are to report back on post by Thursday at 2 o'clock. Contact me for details.
I have a side by side photo of DJT and Hubbard (the one of Hubbard popped up on my explore page) and they look like they could be brothers.. or the same person. The eyes and othe features are identical
Is Randy McDonald alive to get on the show?
Great interview but you know, I don't care how did on debunking the "cloned" theory. Some will never accept it.
There are two possibilities:
1.) Bodies, including memories, can be duplicated.
2.) The being that inhabits a body can be replaced.
In both cases, the person, including their memory, appears to be unchanged on the outside. Only the character is changed.
Wasn't there such a change in LRH's character when he returned from New York in 1973?
There is some evidence that such replacements have also been made to other people. This technology exists.
Yes.
Another example of this is probably Joe Biden. look at the man, he's currently NOT even pretending to be a president. He's a brainwiped puppet, completely controlled by someone else. He used to be a capable politician, corrupt, but capable. Nowadays he's just being used, similarly how Ron was being used.
20:44 "It still manages to survive and expand." Stuart, do you really think Scientology is expanding? Not in thirty years. Sounds like you're kissing up to someone, or trying to stay connected to your family. You mention when you got out (kicked out) in 82. That year was probably the biggest contraction ever.
ETA: You were less gullible then, or at least more honest about it. But I look forward to your next one of these interviews, and I hope you're more open about it!
hi russ. I am working on a kind of long answer to you, please check back later. Stu
hi. Russ. In a future interview, there is a bunch of stuff I hope to get into post scientology. It is not a "sound bite" but I will try and keep it relatively brief here. Each one of the following paragraphs is really just an outline, there is so much more to it.
I did not get kicked out, I just realized it was time to leave and routed out. The only real consequence back then was a bill for 5 years worth of pro-rated services. There was an attempt to dissuade me from leaving.
I have always been in pursuit of the spiritual side, the god connection, and scientology was a good step in that. It offered a modern approach. I got a lot out of it. Going onto the ship relatively green I learned a lot and did the ot levels to 7. The auditor project LRH had at the Laqunita base had me audited by Dan Koon and CSd by LRH. My last CS was "Off Auditing until he keys in again". Because it was instant FN everything and too easy.
A big part of why I left was because I wanted to do the family thing . ANd there was a strong sense the lines were changing, that was when DM was maneuvering things. The family thing was not possible there and I did not fancy living in LA.
Scn offers a lot of good "tech". Auditing can remove fixed ideas that in the big picture kind of eliminate the idea of karma.
You probably know eval tech. Missing data is often the hardest to spot. Scn is missing god and love and forgiveness, although this is a little in the essay called “what is greatness”, and they are trying to liken affinity to love, which in the ultimate sense is true in that perfect affinity would be a closeness so close it is a oneness, and there you get the expression god is love. I like to think in ideal scenes. Hubbard espoused a lot of ideals in his writings. In reality there are two sides - the tech and the admin. The tech is pretty straight forward. It gets people thinking about themselves in the body mind spirit way. As opposed to just thinking one is a body. The admin gets kind of arbitrary because it is executed by individuals. I say scn is a force for good in that it takes otherwise semi normal people and treats them as spiritual beings. That kind of awakens the truth in people.
I want scientology as a subject to survive and expand. I wish the official scn management was different but it is what it is. If there is a “gods plan” I am trying to figure why DM ended up there instead of a host of others. I thought the CMO was being set up to run things, I knew all those people. There were also a number of brilliant execs you peobably know them all. But it was DM and the lawyers that figured out how to control it.
As far as expansion goes at least on the Scientology TV Channel they show a lot of world wide expansion going on. I do wonder how the US orgs are doing, but I’ve been hearing about the demise of scn for so many years.
Another big outpoint - so many of its best and brightest become outsiders. Its almost like scientology’s aim is to make you more cause, and when you get to the point that you are cause over scn you get the bum’s rush outta there.
In 1970 the top of the grade chart was OT8, cause over life and thought and matter,energy, space and time. God-like abilities. But what happens when everyone is returned to “native state” like OT8, - can that not be only a oneness which is also god? That is why disconnect is so bad, it is the opposite of what the goal is, reconnection to native state.
Disconnection is a major problem with Scn, It makes no sense that the “super human” as produced by Scn is so delicate as to be negatively influenced by a supposed “suppressive” person. There are other ways to deal with people close to you that might disagree with your viewpoint (ie, a gung-ho scientologists vp) but you can be cause without breaking up families. This issue must be resolved in scn is to really succeed. I have visions of a block party where people like Rinder can reconnect with his scn kin, and Leah is hugging Shelly, etc. Again, the way these policies are used is based on individual interpretations. I never meant to be callous about anyone negatively impacted by Scn. There are actual haters out there, most people just want peace and harmony.
And I did have to make some “sacrifices” to hang out with Jan. But my integrity to myself is more important - although I would like to see peace and harmony.
The peeling the onion concept is interesting. When Jan first told me about it my interpretation was peeling back the onion to find your real spiritual self. Which is more of what I am interested in than stories about being in the past. But we are supposed to be having fun here.
My skills are in building and fixing things. I would like to fix scientology. I would like to see families reunited. I would like to see routing out of the SO an easy process. If scn is trying to expand, the exiting people should be encouraged to become useful field scientologists, instead of sources of trouble for scn. To disconnect from your SO friends is odd.
Although I would like to see the conflicts touched on here resolved in my lifetime, I may be a bit ahead of things. Scn is a new church, and is having a lot of growing pains. Eventually, all the big ones have to be more tolerant.
I have always studied other ideas, and the best one I have used for a closer connection to god and love and forgiveness is ACIM, which I recommend.
How to fix scn might be a good topic of onion. It certainly is controversial.
A big deal I learned about post scn is the subject of forgiveness. As I look at it forgiveness is an earthly bridge to god. It looks upon your fellow being as a pure innocent spiritual being, the so called ‘sin” is not part of the picture in that it is in the past and only a memory. The future is likewise unreal in that it is imaginary. All you have is this exact instant which is where eternity is, where god is recognized along with you and your fellow being. The recognition of your fellow beings as pure spirit allows all that to happen in a “holy moment”.
@@Stu-UTUBE1 I remember YOU telling me that you were going to resist getting kicked out, but Sue Koon had advised you that you could not possibly win, and would be better off just getting out of the way.
Do you actually believe anything on the Scn TV channel? Do you actually believe scientology is expanding? I just can't believe that you believe that. I'm sure you know the Ideal Org thing is a real estate/tax avoidance scheme, and these ideal orgs are barely firing on one cylinder. Picture the first ideal org, Buffalo, being unable to keep the heaters going in winter, and reg's having to sit outside in their cars to make phone calls, so the car heater can keep them warm.
Miscellaneous thoughts: I remember your overweight dog, who you couldn't get to eat enough, even though she was fat. I remember your nice old Cadillac.
By the way, for someone who still values scientology auditing, I assume you've never done NOTS. You know you could? It's on the internet. You don't have to pay the church, you don't have to get mistreated by ethics, you don't have to buy a bunch of extra sec checking. You've really just gotta believe it's a real thing, and believe you're doing some good with it.
I had a brief tennis lesson from Waldo once. To see his serve up close was amazing. We once discussed the Billie Jean King vs Bobby Riggs match. He told me he could have easily beaten Billie Jean King. He said that at his peak he was probably ranked about 300th (in the world). He was the best table tennis player around too, even when drunk.
I kind of agree with you that the What is Greatness is a good idea. Also the idea of granting beingness to others. The only problem is that scientology never followed those ideas, except as a means to con people. Responsibility of Leaders is a real good idea if you were trying to get a new Nazi SS organized.
I wish you good luck staying connected with your kids.